I'm here for the education.

[Variable]

VARIABLE = Adoptive mother to an amazing Chinese daughter.

(I might be slightly ahead of the curve since I'm already stammering away along with audio instructions in Cantonese and Mandarin...daughter is only 3, not much interest - but it is there for her, in ambience.)

We will return to China when she is old enough to remember the trip.)

Am carefully seeking out that which may not be so pleasant to read but beneficial in upbringing.

I doubt I'll talk much, but I will read plenty.

I appreciate the honesty here, even if some of it is rather scathing.

[Jin/晋]

welcome :)

[tvbdude]

sup

[eos]

sorry lady...i think there was another or several people doing what you're doing and they got shut down. you might get individual responses to questions you ask but i doubt lurking here will help you raise your kid.

if you haven't already, check out this site (http://www.fwcc.org/).

[Variable]

sorry lady...i think there was another or several people doing what you're doing and they got shut down. you might get individual responses to questions you ask but i doubt lurking here will help you raise your kid.



Actually akane, I went in to this with my eyes open, so I was ready for the documented issues.
After 2 years of post-institutional disorders, no sleep and searching out every possible 'mainstream' resource prior to and after adoption, I'm doing a decent job on my end. We're good. That's not what I need help with. My job doesn't end there. This forum is proof of that.

I'm already a member of my local FCC, and Yahoo, and every other forum or organization...but I thank you (anyway) for the direction elsewhere.

What I'm here to observe is that which these other 'groups' do not have a handle on. What my daughter might actually FEEL or experience as someone caught between cultures - instead of an outsider's clinical perspective on what they assume someone in her circumstance should feel.

I'm not expecting dialog or input. Not here to post annoying questions. I'm reading and absorbing. Just thought it would be polite to introduce myself.

Thank you for the welcome.

[monkeygone2]

I really admire your honesty & your reason for being here.

Womb Raider could take a lesson.

[Adaon]

I really admire your honesty & your reason for being here.

Womb Raider could take a lesson.

:confused: The wha....??

[pikachupacabra]

I have zero experience in these matters, but it always seems like a good idea to let your adoptive kids chose a few matters, i.e. show them the way to find out more about their heritage and let them figure out if they want to continue finding out more.

[monkeygone2]

:confused: The wha....??

brangelina.

[eos]

^oh wow.....that was really clever. tres attractif.

PM moi, mon cherie.

ps. i'm french now. and british. cheers!

[kimpossible]

It takes guts to take on the negatives for the good of the child you've adopted. Dunno if it'll help you in the long run but kudos for trying. Appreciate the courtesy of your intro.

If you're extra thick-skinned try transracialabductees.org. Try to keep in mind that no woman really wants to give up her child and it's natural for adopted children to wonder about the birth family. My dad was not transracially adopted and he loved his parents immensely but I think adoption affected his identity greatly.

I'm a parent too. While I'm not remotely wild about transnational adoption I go on a case by case basis. If you're somewhat normal, and that is a very loaded and vague qualifier, we may be able to swap parent info and advice.

Good luck to all of you.

[Variable]

I have zero experience in these matters, but it always seems like a good idea to let your adoptive kids chose a few matters, i.e. show them the way to find out more about their heritage and let them figure out if they want to continue finding out more.

Balance is important.

Got a lot of bookmarked reading (I'm all over the place) to show me that some (too many) parents dismiss, IGNORE, really, anything that came before...like it isn't part of the equation anymore.
I call it Whitebread.
You call it Whitewash.
Same thing.

The alternate is going over-board and isolating a child from her adoptive family and friends by forcing an 'education', making her a product of her past.

*

It matters to me how my daughter will be considered not only by the half-educated majority but by the Chinese community.

In China, we confused a great many people.

My guide, who had spent time in the US, explained that many of the townsfolk were surprised at the extent of orphans...others were unaware of the International Adoption program - the question, surmised, "Why are these Chinese babies with these Americans?"
In the larger cities, it was a combination of stark disapproval and friendly thumbs-up.
So from the beginning, I had that voice in my head. Don't be a statistic, do this right!

Here, as we avail ourselves (South Florida is multi-cultural) I have received nothing but kindness from native Chinese and American born citizens...
but there are two things that almost immediately come up in conversation:
"Do you know her Chinese name?" Yes. And it is part of her American name, too.
"Does she speak Chinese?" Not yet...just a word here or there, but we will. All of us, so it isn't just on her.

We are a family. We are in this together.

FCC is both a blessing and a curse...brings blended families (is that an acceptable term?) together but also reveals how easy it is to over-compensate.

Balance.

So I will read.

P.S.

KIM - normal?
Not sure I would qualify, will leave that judgment to you.

I have to face the negatives or else admit irresponsibility.

I was also adopted during my mother's remarriage, though I never had the desire to find my birthfather. He split before I was born.
However, this made adoption a positive for me, since it worked out well enough.
And I guess I am a bit weird because I see families, not anything more or less...I don't feel the need to point out who's not kin.
Even as a kid, growing up with parents that too readily saw color and race as an ISSUE, I saw people.
'Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the differences between people, but that it never stopped me. (So it's work for me to think that way.)

I'm getting from the source that it more a MOTHER thing...and my daughter's first mother will not be disgraced. No matter what reasons we are given for abandonment (it used to be 1 child policy, period...but now there are other factors being introduced to consider) I am leaving that without a grand explanation...
her parents were unable to keep her. No malice, no roses. I can't write that story for someone I don't know. I have to keep it simple, or else I would be lying.
We are already gently discussing that, though right now she does not want to hear it...this will be anything but easy. With patience, I will support her as she explores her identity.

[kimpossible]

okay. question answered.

[Variable]

transracialabductees.org.

Safe to say I'm the person they hate.

[SunWuKong]

my daughter's first mother will not be disgraced. No matter what reasons we are given for abandonment (it used to be 1 child policy, period...but now there are other factors being introduced to consider) I am leaving that without a grand explanation...
her parents were unable to keep her. No malice, no roses. I can't write that story for someone I don't know. I have to keep it simple, or else I would be lying.

that's really good. the difficulties of the one-child policy nowadays is more or less an economic one. the parents are fined for having more than one child, and i think only the first child gets free public education. there are many reasons a mother might give her newborn to an adoption agency, even here in the US. when you consider that mainland China really doesn't have much of an infrastructure of social safety net in terms of welfare and social workers and such, it's daunting for a poor single mother to even try to raise one child.

one thing that Chinese society needs to work on is the preference for sons. that's the reason that there is such an imbalance of girls vs. boys in orphanages.

[Variable]

Actually, it is still 'illegal' to abandon a child, which is why orphans (how they are arguably classified) are literally "left to be found" in market places, government buildings or, like my daughter, in front of the local orphanage.
A finding ad is placed in the local paper.
If no claims are made, after the legally required wait, the child may become eligible for adoption.
From there, if (and not all are) the orphanage is part of the International program, she may be adopted abroad.
From there, some find local foster families. Some are intra-adopted.
My daughter did not have this advantage.

There are a number of boys as well, but with what are deemed 'special needs' - varying medical conditions.

The mother/birthparents would not have any direct communication with an adoption agency because the CCAA s.t.r.i.c.t.l.y. enforces policy.
There have been some recent, troubling stories of trafficking, but that involved the 'finder' and corrupt orphanages. I don't know how high up the food chain...it was serious.
The process must go through the government. Everything goes through the government.
Adoptive parents are typically not allowed any outside contact with the orphanage once they have been notified of a referral - the only way they would know which, or to send care packages to the orphanage without first clearing a request. To do so may compromise the transaction. In other words, game over.

We were not allowed to go inside the orphanage while we were there, due to such limitations.

But yes, what was once not considered a popular reason is the overwhelming odds a single mother would face. having been there, I get that.
There are now several reasons I could contemplate, but I don't think picking one scenario over another would be fair to either my daughter or her birth mother.
We are simply not provided with these details. Some babies are left with a short note. Anything more is a risk too great for the first parent.


1 child policy...
It depends on the Province and whether the family is rural - farmworkers have an allowance for more children to work the fields - but I do not off the top of my head have exact numbers as to how many - remembering it isn't a generous amount. It is purported that some children, under the radar, go off to live with relatives.

As long as social mores dictates that sons are responsible for the welfare of their aging parents, it will be difficult to improvise.
Change is slow to come, but there is a move for reform, to modify the patriarchal thinking. We were witness to that. Saw the billboards.


Hmmn.
I did say I wasn't going to talk much, didn't I? Sorry about that. I'll shut up now.

[kimpossible]

transracialabductees.org.

Safe to say I'm the person they hate.

That would be the dismissive interpretation. They actually address more the process and growing industry of transnational adoption and voice the problems it can create for adoptees. It's by and for Asian adoptees so yes, it's less censored/filtered for the comfort of adopting Caucasian parents. It's all choice. There for the reading only if you want.

[Variable]

(One more comment...I wish I could edit my typos.)

[Variable]

That would be the dismissive interpretation. They actually address more the process and growing industry of transnational adoption and voice the problems it can create for adoptees. It's by and for Asian adoptees so yes, it's less censored/filtered for the comfort of adopting Caucasian parents. It's all choice. There for the reading only if you want.

I dove in...rough waters. Tidal.

Abduction Politics bitch-slapped me until I was sore. I'm still reading, in between Mama moments.

[kimpossible]

Hmmn.
I did say I wasn't going to talk much, didn't I? Sorry about that. I'll shut up now.

*shrug* very few of us will be highly reactionary to information. it's usually interpretation, attitude, awareness, judgment, etc., that leads to conflict. generally speaking, i think people acknowledge your willingness to face the criticism of the process in an effort to learn and better your personal situation.

[rice cracker]

Well, this is a lot better than the woman who wanted a Korean photo album.

Welcome to YW.

[LaiSteve66]

(One more comment...I wish I could edit my typos.)

This forum has a stupid setup where you can only edit posts for 30 minutes after the post is made.

[SunWuKong]

1 child policy...
It depends on the Province and whether the family is rural - farmworkers have an allowance for more children to work the fields - but I do not off the top of my head have exact numbers as to how many - remembering it isn't a generous amount.

yes and also ethnic minorities supposedly get a break on the one-child policy.

It is purported that some children, under the radar, go off to live with relatives.

yeah i've read that a lot of children are actually unaccounted for in statistical numbers because their births are simply not reported, so the parents can avoid being fined.

[buttermilkwise]

I really admire your honesty & your reason for being here.

Womb Raider could take a lesson.

Womb Raider OMGWTFBBQ LOL!

(carefully this woman might actually be angelina jolie)

[Variable]

Womb Raider OMGWTFBBQ LOL!

(carefully this woman might actually be angelina jolie)

We've got some major differences between us, most notably age and wealth.

[buttermilkwise]

Mrs. Angelina you have no idea who I am, but in a way I feel kind of sorry for you so i'll dismiss your last comment (really why are you adopting instead of conceiving your own child?).

But you should realize this board exists pretty much in the same way that you will never find Asian parents adopting white babies.

So as far as your daughter is concerned I don't think you have much to worry about, it is yourself that you should be most concerned about and your attitude towards minorities and what kind of role model you will play that will reflect upon her own upbringing.

You have to understand the problem of identity for a person raised in such a situation is inescapable, you have to accept that. However, IMO if you live in a area that is more liberal and they have an oppertunity to associate with people like themselves with a concentration of asian-americans, the problems will be easier to deal with instead of growing up in backwards-ass area filled with racist white rednecks.

Use your common sense.

[Variable]

Mrs. Angelina you have no idea who I am, but in a way I feel kind of sorry for you so i'll dismiss your last comment (really why are you adopting instead of conceiving your own child?).

Use your common sense.

I suspect that you misunderstood my last comment...you asked if I was A.J.
I am not...and my response reflected the fact that I am both older and much less financially able to react to what you might consider whim.

I don't need you to feel sorry for me...in no way have I requested that from anyone. Ever. BTW, This would be the last place I would expect pity...facetiously, maybe.

Is it really important to you to know why I would adopt a child?

Anyway - let me explain this - the WHY I came here...
Because growing up, I was quite a delinquent and my parents were basically clueless. Naive. They based their view of my life on their childhood experiences, believing that to be a viable comparison when in fact it was in no way similar and of little value.
When anyone, oh, them, their priest, a counselor, would ask what was wrong - I did not answer. I told them I didn't know, or that nothing was wrong. I shut down.
Pretty typical teenage response.

It got worse before it got better.

So, here I am with a daughter who in addition to facing a whole new set of trends, will have some degree of discomfort concerning her adoption and the way the world sees her, the way she views the world and herself.

Common sense tells me to pay close attention to this, not only her behavior as she ages, but to arm myself with knowledge learned from other people who live it.

So, I am sorry if you have the wrong idea about what I'm made of and what my intentions are. Perhaps I have misunderstood you as well?

[monkeygone2]

i hope Variable sticks around.

i know people who, while they were raised in loving families, had no one there for them when it came to everyday Asian American angst.
obviously, Variable’s not Asian. she's not here to become an honorary Asian. she wants to be there for her daughter the best she can.

[kimpossible]

She clearly stated she's out to learn and she's the first Caucasian adoptive parent I've ever heard of read transracialabductees.org and absorb rather than lash out at them. I admire anyone who can walk that gauntlet.

Remember to pace yourself, Variable. Don't burn out too early.

[Faithless]

I was reading some cost figures for what it takes to adopt from China, and it seems to cost more in many instances than giving birth to one's own and a couple days stay at a hospital.

[AngryABCGirl]

Hey you're a good parent for doing what you're doing. Don't be scared off!

[SunWuKong]

I was reading some cost figures for what it takes to adopt from China, and it seems to cost more in many instances than giving birth to one's own and a couple days stay at a hospital.

doesn't that basically depend on how much you really want to spend on the pregnancy and childbirth though?

[kimpossible]

The med costs for '05-'06 prenatal plus delivery for me were around $15k, BUT health insurance covered about $13k. That's one large difference.

[Tao]

We've got some major differences between us, most notably age and wealth.

...so what you´re saying is that you´re about as hot as she is? i need a sugar momma to put me through med school. adopt me. i´m cute too i promise.

[Variable]

(Ah, humor injection - is good.)

20 years ago, well, some might say...

but nowadays I'm barely lukewarm.

P.S. Too poor to buy candy.

[Adaon]

...so what you´re saying is that you´re about as hot as she is? i need a sugar momma to put me through med school. adopt me. i´m cute too i promise.

(Ah, humor injection - is good.)

20 years ago, well, some might say...

but nowadays I'm barely lukewarm.

P.S. Too poor to buy candy.

That's not the only thing he'll inject :eek: :rolleyes: :biggrin:

Plz dun let your daughter read that. >_< :redface:[

[buttermilkwise]

Common sense tells me to pay close attention to this, not only her behavior as she ages, but to arm myself with knowledge learned from other people who live it.




Hmm... how to get this across because I'm having a hard time elucidating my point, though I understand what you mean and I agree it is worth acquiring that sort of knowledge.

What I am really trying to say is that before everything else the number one, numero uno, thing to do is to cultivate wisdom and compassion in yourself first (this is what I mean when I said striving to be a role model).

Seriously how could you get anyone to listen to you, much less your own children, if they can't even respect you in the first place?

because whether or not you know about these issues in advance, it makes no difference in the end if you act out in ignorance (anger, rigid authorative control, fear) though with good intentions.

that is all i'm offering feel free to take it or leave it.

[Variable]

What I am really trying to say is that before everything else the number one, numero uno, thing to do is to cultivate wisdom and compassion in yourself first (this is what I mean when I said striving to be a role model).

Seriously how could you get anyone to listen to you, much less your own children, if they can't even respect you in the first place?

because whether or not you know about these issues in advance, it makes no difference in the end if you act out in ignorance (anger, rigid authorative control, fear) though with good intentions.



Actually I quite understand what you've written HERE, and especially how it applies to me.

Respect is something that must be earned, not granted. Even for parents.

And yes, the wrong reaction no matter the intent will further damage.

Build, not destroy.

My desire is to support her and by more than lip service, not restricting valid emotions by denouncing her.

No argument and I thank you for coming back to clarify.

I think that's what alarmed me most about the abuctee site - how these writers perceive their childhoods - that their parents demanded them to be grateful.
And I think that is a specific kind of parenting culture...one I am not part of.
That is an idea so far removed from any I have ever had...my daughter owes me nothing, will owe me nothing...I OWE HER. My dedication as her parent. Not to the extreme of motherly martyrdom, another mental illness, but enough to cancel out any suggestion that she needs to thank me for adopting her.

[SunWuKong]

i think that the transracial abduction site goes a bit too far with what they say. however, when i have kids, i'd probably expect them to be respectful to all their elders. that's how i was raised. i don't really care for this "respect must be earned" rhetoric.

[Variable]

i think that the transracial abduction site goes a bit too far with what they say. however, when i have kids, i'd probably expect them to be respectful to all their elders. that's how i was raised. i don't really care for this "respect must be earned" rhetoric.

Well...let's look at it this way...a secularly moral perspective:

There's a starting point; basic love, admiration and respect for parents/elders in a household that offers a healthy, reciprocal environment and I am ALL for teaching polite respect as opposed to snotty defiance. My toddler is not running around like a banshee. She has limits. More than most of my friends' kids did...(I see monsters).

But respect can regress.

A child ideally listens to a parent when they give warning or instruction or else faces whatever discipline apropos...but there is a line. And emotional abuse seems to be a common complaint among adoptees. Either absentee neglect or verbal beatings. How much of that is fact-based and whatever left over (is) projection...I really don't know.

Our kids are not born or adopted to SERVE us...well, by my thinking, anyway...I know that other cultures view this through different eyes, but I speak only of my house.

If I turned out to be a strung-out hussy or a whacked-out Fundi (insert other dysfunction) who thought only of myself and nothing of my daughter's welfare, in all that entails, I don't deserve this respect.
And if my daughter is surrounded by vile ignorance, I do not expect or demand that she honor it.
(But I would like to instruct her to react with maturity.)

[Variable]

Revisiting the child rearing conversation:

I'm not the 'everyone gets a medal' type...Old school, in as far as I do believe in raising up educated, responsible adults that can function in society. And there are many things to be grateful for.

It's the usage I'm picking apart.

I don't think a kid can cry FOUL for being grounded or having an argument over curfew...or not getting the $150.00 sneakers. Get real.

But for a parent to harass a child, belittle and berate them with adoption as an insult and try to call it a method of 'discipline'...that's the crap I'm looking at, as I read, shaking my head. Those are the 'elders' I see no value in.

That's more than being oblivious...that's cruel and unjustified.

And I don't know, can't know because I'm not allowed IN there...what the real stories are on the Abductee site. I can only glean from that which is openly published on the web (lots of variously anti-adoption blogs/sites - I found those while I was researching adoption prior to).

I guess I should point out that I'm not foaming at the mouth, completely paranoid that my daughter will despise me once she turns 18.
At least not any more than any other teenager would.

But I'm not hiding from it, either.

I see a need to not only say "I am there for her" but illustrate by deed from now until then (and after) that I will offer her my understanding and a safe place to expose herself. Even the ugly stuff. I'm sure we will both have moments that suck much. It may not be perfect. I'm not perfect. Sooo not perfect. I admit I feel a bit bumbling. I may have limitations beyond my ability to conquer. But I am willing and resilient.

And I am not alone.

[Variable]

Anyway...I think this thread has gone as far as it can unless someone has something else to add.

I thank you all for welcoming me and allowing me the view. :)

Trish

[buttermilkwise]

Variable - I know i'm going to offend some people here, (maybe you) but I hope you're not planning on indoctrinating your daughter with the bible. From what I know It discourages free-thinking. Other than that you're cool.


i think that the transracial abduction site goes a bit too far with what they say. however, when i have kids, i'd probably expect them to be respectful to all their elders. that's how i was raised. i don't really care for this "respect must be earned" rhetoric.

I don't like giving out personal details but I suffered quite alot of emotional and verbal abuse from a dysfunctional father, who expected and demanded respect when I was growing up. Unless you've been through the same emotional trauma, you could never possibly understand why this issue is important. From what people tell me it is a miracle I have not gone insane or schizophrenic due to the abuse.

Yes it is a good custom depending on the family, but it is entirely something else when it comes from someone who is intolerant, and has a violent borderline personality disorder.

My case is an unfortunate exception, but the samething can happen in 'normal' families to a lesser degree, some discipline is necessary but there is a line where children should never have to suffer unnecessarily regardless of tradition.

[Variable]

buttermilkwise;517376]Variable - I know i'm going to offend some people here, (maybe you) but I hope you're not planning on indoctrinating your daughter with the bible. From what I know It discourages free-thinking. Other than that you're cool.

Ooooh, no-no-no-no.

I was raised in a VERY conservative house. Not Fundi but rigid...and although my folks weren't loonies, there was absolutely no room to wiggle. I shunned the church when I was 14. (I was an old 14.)
We still can't, er, "discuss" religion without my father coming close to a stroke.

I'm an atheist. We don't, they do, she can - later.

When my daughter is older, reaching an age of reason, she can believe as she feels is right for her - I'll then offer her in-depth exposure to all religions without bias, as much as I am able. As long as there are no bombs involved, I'm fine with that. I already have a bit of a library here...I just don't want any one philosophy to have the advantage, including my own.
Personal belief is a decision left for her.

I don't like giving out personal details but I suffered quite alot of emotional and verbal abuse from a dysfunctional father, who expected and demanded respect when I was growing up. Unless you've been through the same emotional trauma, you could never possibly understand why this issue is important. From what people tell me it is a miracle I have not gone insane or schizophrenic due to the abuse.

But I do understand. To an extent. And I have enough empathy to reach for the rest.
I am the birth product of extreme Encyclopedic co-dependency (even though I HATE that 'blanket' term), so although the application is different, the weapon of guilt is similar. Both deliveries are twisted and life long. I do believe your experience to be more dangerous, as mine is easier to see through and walk away from.
(I also don't feel comfortable discussing that in the open, but I can explain it to you PM.)

It's one thing to teach a child to be thankful for good deeds done for them and entirely another to demand worship.

Yes it is a good custom depending on the family, but it is entirely something else when it comes from someone who is intolerant, and has a violent borderline personality disorder.

Agreed.

My case is an unfortunate exception, but the samething can happen in 'normal' families to a lesser degree, some discipline is necessary but there is a line where children should never have to suffer unnecessarily regardless of tradition.

We're on the same page, Buttermilk.

[Variable]

(still here, reading...)

[monkeygone2]

^ while listening to sam phillips?

[Variable]

That, too. ;)