New nvhai'r in town

[BaiSanghei]

Hi all, I just stumbled upon this site, signed up because there was something I felt an itch to comment on, so here I am.

I always feel like I need to introduce and apologetically explain myself whenever I join AA forums. I am Caucasian in ethnicity, American in nationality, but geographically and culturally Asian. I grew up in a heavily AA community, the bulk of my American friends are ethnic Asian, and am most comfortable with American culture viewed through the AA lens. My home for the past decade has been Shanghai, and I doubt I'll ever leave. I have gone quite native here, as much as a "perpetual foreigner" can.

I get equally annoyed with "Asiaphiles" as with being called one myself. I know both Asian and AA cultures well enough to say that there are things I love, things I hate, and those vary amongst all the gradients - what I love and hate about Hong Kong is very distinct from what I love and hate about Kuta Kinabalu. Etc. But, I admit, I did start off as an "Asiaphile" - we all have our youthful indiscretions.

And I do predominately date ethnic Asian, mostly Mainland Chinese, men, both out of supply and preference (physical and cultural). I wince at being stance-y about it, but I have grown pretty stance-y about the fab-ness of Asian men. Partly in defense of my bros and boyfriends, partly because of my frustration with American girl friends' betwizzlement at my preferences. For these reasons I'm pretty active on the site Singleasianmale.com; it's a silly place, but its heart is in the right place.

I am equally stance-y against the whole "sell-out" attacks on out-dating AFs. Yes, the self-loathing sell-outs exist, but: most of my best friends are AFs who date mostly or exclusively WM, but all for very personal and individual reasons. I think it is misogynistic, racist, and above all just silly to lay a claim to "our women". And, yes, I get much of the same from white men regarding my disinterest "my" men - usually wackos I've know for five seconds. My right-wing WASP family gives me shit - or used to, they got tired of my telling them off for it.

So, I am intensely sympathetic to and supportive of AA issues. But I am also pretty intolerant of AA "issues". Being the twipper, the token white person in the room, when in Asia is great: "You're not a moron like most Americans!" In America, it gets hostile hissing in bad Mandarin "Who invited the white girl?!" which gets nastier when they discover that the white girl speaks "their" language and knows more about "their" culture than they do.

Culture is not race is not language is not nationality. I so love cultural mezclas, places like Shanghai, or Kashgar, or Penang, or San Francisco, or Xiamen. Culture is all about exchange, interaction, interchange. After all, each of us are our own unique, individual subculture, and the joy of living is getting to share that. Human society is the same, writ large.

[Adaon]

What a welcome breath of fresh air.

Welcome, and thanks for the well-thought out, well written intro.

On a lighter note, since Tao hasn't gotten here yet.

Pix plz? -rolls his eyes- TAOoooooooo?!

[BaiSanghei]

1. Xia ya nong.
2. Na na...wha? You're eye-rolling for a condom?! Well, we all have those moments, um, thanks for sharing la...Heh!

小江, 我不可算干净天, 我自己得不到干净的天, 我的嗓子恨死我了. 喜欢来一天可以住在中国不受伤了.

[Adaon]

1. Xia ya nong.
2. Na na...wha? You're eye-rolling for a condom?! Well, we all have those moments, um, thanks for sharing la...Heh!

小江, 我不可算干净天, 我自己得不到干净的天, 我的嗓子恨死我了. 喜欢来一天可以住在中国不受伤了.

:eek: :redface: :confused: :frown:

Umm, you win? Uncle uncle?:rolleyes:

[kimpossible]

In some ways I completely sympathize with your circumstance. In some ways I really want to obliterate the chip on your shoulder. There are people in similar situations and experience the same difficulties but are actually part Asian. Me being one of them.

You really don't owe anyone an explanation but you in turn aren't really owed anything either. You may know Mandarin really well, you may know China as an ex-pat really well, you may know AAs really well but you could stand a little humility when it comes to admitting that there is a life experience as an ethnic Asian that you don't have. Both the good and the bad of it.

Having said that, I'm open to getting to know you here and would certainly welcome your support on community issues and for whatever individual skills and contributions you'd make as just yourself. All I know of you is a very defensive intro that goes a little too much on the attack for my tastes, but that's only one post.

Go easier on the I'm a White Girl Around Chinese merit badge. I got one of those as well so it's not all that special. If anything I'm probably the one of many here that can relate to your situation. The one really big exception is feeling the need to join an Asian male preference group. But I've never really understood any of those dating groups regardless of gender alignment. Maybe because I'm mixed and so used to it. *shrug*

Let's see how this goes longer term. :smile:

[deez nuts]

What a welcome breath of fresh air.

Welcome, and thanks for the well-thought out, well written intro.

On a lighter note, since Tao hasn't gotten here yet.

Pix plz? -rolls his eyes- TAOoooooooo?!

way to win her over!

[CBC guy]

1. Xia ya nong.
2. Na na...wha? You're eye-rolling for a condom?! Well, we all have those moments, um, thanks for sharing la...Heh!

小江, 我不可算干净天, 我自己得不到干净的天, 我的嗓子恨死我了. 喜欢来一天可以住在中国不受伤了.

哈哈, 挺不錯啊! 妳中文寫得比我還好, 我是個香港人, 妳認識廣東話嗎?

Oh, now I get the "nvhair" part.... I thought it was some new hair salon in NYC LOL

[Adaon]

way to win her over!

SHAKE.........AND BAKE!!

[Adaon]

哈哈, 挺不錯啊! 妳中文寫得比我還好, 我是個香港人, 妳認識廣東話嗎?

Oh, now I get the "nvhair" part.... I thought it was some new hair salon in NYC LOL

I hate being illiterate.

[BaiSanghei]

Nvhair or 女孩儿 = girl. CBC, 我看繁体字不习惯了.

Kim: um...My shoulder chip can beat up your shoulder chip?

Indeed, my experiences are uniquely mine and yours are uniquely yours. Indeed, while I am fairly attuned to Asian-America, it is by osmosis, second hand. I am well aware of both white privilege and the creepy things many white Americans say when it is just "us" - not necessarily racism, but all around small-minded ignorance.

I don't do humility; self-mocking is more my style, but yes, I read and interact on sites like this because there is loads upon loads of other people's experiences and insights that I want to soak up. Of course I'm defensive, I am a cultural freak subject to attack by all of the "communities" I interact with, apart from the Shanghainese who after a few minutes register, "她不是老外, 她只是白人" and it's fine.

No, I don't want any "badges", and don't think I deserve a sticker. Who I like to date shouldn't be an issue - but I find, among Americans, it often is. Americans make issues about a lot of truly silly things.

I'm not an expatriate, I'm an immigrant. There is a huge difference. There is also a huge difference between being a minority Asian in America and being a minority Caucasian in China - no duh. But, the perpetual foreignness, the daily ritual of "poke at the 'monkey'", being seen and treated as a freak of nature, might be shared. Most Chinese ARE racist - but towards different ethnicities of Chinese, and towards other Asian nationalities. Other races are just freakish curiosities, they're unmaliciously pre-racist in the way my grandmother is: "I just can't get used to how strange looking all these foreigners are!"

Does it annoy me? Obviously. Am I bitter? Nah, cost of living. I do though feel an enormous pressure, not to "represent" but to overcompensate for the general idiocy of most laowai here, by/and to assimilate as much as I can.

Is this relevant here? Probably not. But, there are some parallels. 无所谓吧.

[CBC guy]

Nvhair or 女孩儿 = girl. CBC, 我看繁体字不习惯了.

Kim: um...My shoulder chip can beat up your shoulder chip?

Indeed, my experiences are uniquely mine and yours are uniquely yours. Indeed, while I am fairly attuned to Asian-America, it is by osmosis, second hand. I am well aware of both white privilege and the creepy things many white Americans say when it is just "us" - not necessarily racism, but all around small-minded ignorance.

I don't do humility; self-mocking is more my style, but yes, I read and interact on sites like this because there is loads upon loads of other people's experiences and insights that I want to soak up. Of course I'm defensive, I am a cultural freak subject to attack by all of the "communities" I interact with, apart from the Shanghainese who after a few minutes register, "她不是老外, 她只是白人" and it's fine.

No, I don't want any "badges", and don't think I deserve a sticker. Who I like to date shouldn't be an issue - but I find, among Americans, it often is. Americans make issues about a lot of truly silly things.

I'm not an expatriate, I'm an immigrant. There is a huge difference. There is also a huge difference between being a minority Asian in America and being a minority Caucasian in China - no duh. But, the perpetual foreignness, the daily ritual of "poke at the 'monkey'", being seen and treated as a freak of nature, might be shared. Most Chinese ARE racist - but towards different ethnicities of Chinese, and towards other Asian nationalities. Other races are just freakish curiosities, they're unmaliciously pre-racist in the way my grandmother is: "I just can't get used to how strange looking all these foreigners are!"

Does it annoy me? Obviously. Am I bitter? Nah, cost of living. I do though feel an enormous pressure, not to "represent" but to overcompensate for the general idiocy of most laowai here, by/and to assimilate as much as I can.

Is this relevant here? Probably not. But, there are some parallels. 无所谓吧.

Wow you sound like you have assimilated a fair bit into the PRC society, do you also understand the Shanghai dialect? I sure as hell can't :tongue: despite the fact I have a Shanghainese uncle and grand-aunt. (however, they always speak Cantonese to us, as they have both lived in Hong Kong for many many years)

When did you start learning Mandarin? I take it you've been to other places in Asia, do you enjoy them too?

How is living in Shanghai anyways? I lived in Chengdu for a while and Hong Kong a fair bit (all my relatives are there Lol) but I still consider Vancouver "home."

[deez nuts]

SHAKE.........AND BAKE!!

SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE AND BAKE!

[kimpossible]

OK. Look, I just can't get on board with the idea of going around claiming "I'm Asian! No, seriously, I am! Don't call me an ex-pat!" So I won't dare move your cheese on you. I also don't have the time to debate it. Suffice to say, if you ever win kasia over then I'd tip my hat.

However, you are currently on YW and I'm a moderator here. It's primarily for Asian Americans and for them to express their views. As long as you don't take the idea of representing Asians too seriously, have at. As a white female expressing interest in Asian males you will have the support of those who also have those goals.

Good luck! And for what it's worth what I *would* like to hear about is some political analysis or other interesting societal developments.

[eos]

omfg.......i must kill myself now because a non-chinese can read, write and speak better than i can.

and i was *just* getting started on my new life too. ~oh well~

[DaMuo]

I don’t want to be negative especially in welcoming new people, but this post for me has got to be written from the most arrogant and white privileged ex-pat perspective possible. It is also mortally offensive for me on many levels.

First, even though I can speak French fluently, lived there a while, and am well educated in French culture I would NEVER say I’m culturally French. To say that you are “culturally” Asian is both a presumption and also … what is it to be “culturally” Asian. More importantly, China does NOT represent Asia. “Culture is not race is not language is not nationality.” Neither is it clothes you wear when you wake up in the morning. However, those things are integral to culture and its definition. If you had grown up in China (i.e.) with a circle of family, I believe you would understand the nuance of what you are saying and why it is so difficult for somebody like me to be sympathetic or accepting of your “Chinese-ness” or “Asian-ness”.

Second, the statement about being an immigrant is just down right insulting. Most of our parents left FROM China leaving family behind to give us all better lives in the US. Unless you’ve surrendered your passport and are ready to give up your right to call yourself an American, I do not think you should be going around saying you are an immigrant to China. That’s just insulting!

The spiel you gave is what many white American ex-pat I’ve met tells me. I’ve never met a German or Russian ex pat introduce themselves thus. So please, you do not need to give us the “I date Asians, I know Chinese, I know the culture spiel, I’m culturally Asian” spiel and just invite yourself to the “exchange” process; the full disclosure is just too much detail.

[SunWuKong]

hahhah yeah i kind of raised an eyebrow when i read that she thinks she's an immigrant. but i thought maybe there was more she wasn't telling us so i didn't jump on that. if expat living in Shanghai is anything like expat living in HK, then it's a little difficult for me to buy the "immigrant" bit.

[eos]

Second, the statement about being an immigrant is just down right insulting. Most of our parents left FROM China leaving family behind to give us all better lives in the US. Unless you’ve surrendered your passport and are ready to give up your right to call yourself an American, I do not think you should be going around saying you are an immigrant to China. That’s just insulting!

bolded for extra KAPOW!!

new girl, you betsa check yo'self.

[deez nuts]

personally, i don't give a shit about the details of why you're here blah blah blah and welcome you with open arms.

[BaiSanghei]

CBC, yeah pretty assimilated; I understand Shanghainese but only speak a little bit, to my embarassment. Am trying to learn, but most of my friends speak good Mandarin, and several of them better English than I do, so it takes some effort to practice the Sangheiwu much. I started on the Mandarin a decade ago. Travels, let's see: Japan, HK, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia...not that impressive, but most are protracted times visiting friends, so I can fairly claim I've done my share of going local in Kuta Kinabalu and Surabaya.

How's Chengdu? Shanghai is pretty messed up, it has become really neurotic with the communist reshaping plus the foreign capital influx. I just got back from visiting a meimei in Nanjing, and it reminded me quite sadly of the great neighborhood, lifestyle feel that Shanghai used to have and is struggling to hold onto. Still, it's my home, my loyalties are cast, and there does remain a lot of wonderful community here.

Kim, points well and fairly taken. I acknowledge, appreciate, and encourage the purpose of this website, for whatever the opinion of a whitey matters: there soooo needs to be greater Asian-American political awareness, organization, and above all activity. (How often does the communal grousing actually accomplish much, after all?)

"Asian" as you understand it is a very American thing. Asian means everything from the Japanese to the Turks, from the Russians to the Sri Lankans, and everything in between. Like 1/3 of Asian are technically Caucasians. Asia is the most racially and culturally diverse region in the world; and its distinction from Europe is fairly arbitrary. (Actually, question, I don't know this: how WAS that line drawn?)

In American, "Asian" means Japanese/Korean/Greater Chinese - and maybe Vietnamese and Filipino - if you don't look too SoE Asian. In British, it means Pakistani. For "Asian-American" purposes, it has politcal organizational purposes. In realistic cultural, geographic, racial terms, it is only meaningful if you are open enough to take all those facets in.

Indeed, "Chinese" does not represent Asia; "Chinese" doesn't really represent China unless you're a brainless propaganda fan. As one of my ethnic-Mainlander-Taiwanese friends puts it, China is best perceived as a sub-continent, not unlike western Europe. Not that I know much about Europe, but I suspect the French and Germans have way more in common than the Dongbeiers and the Wuyue'ers - and that's just the coast.

If I am an "expatriate", than so are your parents; if I am a "foreigner", than so are you. Are you "American"? "North American"? Are all whites in Asia "expats"? Are all ethnic Asians in Europe and North America gawping tour-bus peasants? Nos, all around. Double standards: spit, or swallow. I spit. Political situation forecludes me from having joint citizenship; funny how many Chinese I meet with US/Canadian/etc citizenship who have lived in ___ only briefly, don't speak ___ language, who are 100% culturally Chinese, yet proudly declare themselves American or ___. I love talking to such folk, we have great debates on what to retain versus discard of respective cultural hodge-podges. This is what I call the slash versus the dash: I am European-American/Shanghainese. I am pretty boring, most of my friends out / me.

Anyhow, expats are the people I avoid most in the world; 去国外的白垃圾不如没离开家的垃圾 - trash is stinkier after long travel. 我一直住在上海小市民的房子, 大部分跟上海人或农村人在一起, 我赚的钱比较地. 我从来没有做过"老外"的生活 - 其实我有点傻, 有点倒霉, 但我就在这里张大,发展, 特不想, 也不能做"老外"的那样子. 那样是我觉得最老外, 也最恶性得.

Then there is the racist superiority of Overseas Chinese, who look down on the actual Chinese who did not leave "this/that horrible place/culture". I: won't even start on that shit. 去你们妈.

Personally, I've only lived a third of my life here. I know people who are second, third, fourth, fifth generation whites in Greater China/East Asia. Are the Persian Jews more "Asian" by dint of being doubly Asian?

I came on to this site because I was looking for pics of the Gore fiance: is he hot? I waxed stancy because of a thread claiming that it is racist/self-loathing not to date men of one's own race. I started this thread because I couldn't post a reply there, thinking it was restricted to approved posters, so I posted an intro, then after much reading around realized said thread was closed.

大木, 老孙哦, 谢谢你们提请我, 我为什么原来就搬来亚洲了. To Damu and Lao Sun, what? Shall I apologize for being born white? 我不会的; 我就是我, 好象你们最自己的"民族"不太字性. I: was reluctant to post here at all, too reminiscent of the banana, er, AZN! power crap I encountered in college as a SoCalGal/Mandarin speaker. I am surprised yet not that these attitudes persist into adulthood. 黄豹万岁! Long live the Yellow Panthers. 我和你们没话说: I know there is nothing I can say to such attitudes. 祝你们好运好名. No hard feelings: good life and good luck.

[pikachupacabra]

I...uh...welcome?


I'm a little confused.

[SunWuKong]

If I am an "expatriate", than so are your parents; if I am a "foreigner", than so are you. Are you "American"? "North American"? Are all whites in Asia "expats"? Are all ethnic Asians in Europe and North America gawping tour-bus peasants? Nos, all around.

hey, call yourself whatever you want as far as i'm personally concerned, i'm always going to have a difficult time picturing someone like you as an "immigrant". i can't speak for anybody else, but i associate the immigrant experience as moving your family and your kids to a new country with barely any money, sleeping on your relative's living room floor for months before you can get your new lives started, working your ass off in manual labour, etc etc. because that's my family's first experience in this country. you, you're a young single writer living in Shanghai, whose former agent apparently thought you could make a name for yourself by writing a book like Rachel DeWoskin's.

i'm from HK, have lived there both as a child and as a working adult, and i love the city. i'd go back in a second if circumstances allow for it. but the reality here is that even in a city like HK, kids from an average middle class background won't have as many opportunities as if they went to school in the US instead. not that their lives would be terrible, but they would be allowed many more life choices in a place like the US. now that's why my parents moved the family to the US even though they love HK.

point i'm trying to make here is that immigrant parents make their decisions as a sacrifice to give their children and their family better lives. at least that's how i personally see the immigrant experience. so what's your reason for moving to Shanghai?

another thing - there's no need to harp on and on about how you hate other expats and there's no need for you to type up a bunch of Chinese. we get it - you're not like other expats, and you can read and write Chinese.

"Asian" as you understand it is a very American thing. Asian means everything from the Japanese to the Turks, from the Russians to the Sri Lankans, and everything in between. Like 1/3 of Asian are technically Caucasians. Asia is the most racially and culturally diverse region in the world; and its distinction from Europe is fairly arbitrary. (Actually, question, I don't know this: how WAS that line drawn?)

there is no such thing as some unified "Asian" cultural identity in Asia. but i disagree that the concept of "Asian" is a "very American thing". there used to be a little thing called 大東亞共榮圈 (Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere). and even in the modern day, you have people like Lee Kuan Yew (李光耀) who think that East Asians are just simply superior to everybody else.

[CBC guy]

CBC, yeah pretty assimilated; I understand Shanghainese but only speak a little bit, to my embarassment. Am trying to learn, but most of my friends speak good Mandarin, and several of them better English than I do, so it takes some effort to practice the Sangheiwu much. I started on the Mandarin a decade ago. Travels, let's see: Japan, HK, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia...not that impressive, but most are protracted times visiting friends, so I can fairly claim I've done my share of going local in Kuta Kinabalu and Surabaya.

How's Chengdu? Shanghai is pretty messed up, it has become really neurotic with the communist reshaping plus the foreign capital influx. I just got back from visiting a meimei in Nanjing, and it reminded me quite sadly of the great neighborhood, lifestyle feel that Shanghai used to have and is struggling to hold onto. Still, it's my home, my loyalties are cast, and there does remain a lot of wonderful community here.


Kim, points well and fairly taken. I acknowledge, appreciate, and encourage the purpose of this website, for whatever the opinion of a whitey matters: there soooo needs to be greater Asian-American political awareness, organization, and above all activity. (How often does the communal grousing actually accomplish much, after all?)

"Asian" as you understand it is a very American thing. Asian means everything from the Japanese to the Turks, from the Russians to the Sri Lankans, and everything in between. Like 1/3 of Asian are technically Caucasians. Asia is the most racially and culturally diverse region in the world; and its distinction from Europe is fairly arbitrary. (Actually, question, I don't know this: how WAS that line drawn?)

In American, "Asian" means Japanese/Korean/Greater Chinese - and maybe Vietnamese and Filipino - if you don't look too SoE Asian. In British, it means Pakistani. For "Asian-American" purposes, it has politcal organizational purposes. In realistic cultural, geographic, racial terms, it is only meaningful if you are open enough to take all those facets in.

Indeed, "Chinese" does not represent Asia; "Chinese" doesn't really represent China unless you're a brainless propaganda fan. As one of my ethnic-Mainlander-Taiwanese friends puts it, China is best perceived as a sub-continent, not unlike western Europe. Not that I know much about Europe, but I suspect the French and Germans have way more in common than the Dongbeiers and the Wuyue'ers - and that's just the coast.

If I am an "expatriate", than so are your parents; if I am a "foreigner", than so are you. Are you "American"? "North American"? Are all whites in Asia "expats"? Are all ethnic Asians in Europe and North America gawping tour-bus peasants? Nos, all around. Double standards: spit, or swallow. I spit. Political situation forecludes me from having joint citizenship; funny how many Chinese I meet with US/Canadian/etc citizenship who have lived in ___ only briefly, don't speak ___ language, who are 100% culturally Chinese, yet proudly declare themselves American or ___. I love talking to such folk, we have great debates on what to retain versus discard of respective cultural hodge-podges. This is what I call the slash versus the dash: I am European-American/Shanghainese. I am pretty boring, most of my friends out / me.

Anyhow, expats are the people I avoid most in the world; 去国外的白垃圾不如没离开家的垃圾 - trash is stinkier after long travel. 我一直住在上海小市民的房子, 大部分跟上海人或农村人在一起, 我赚的钱比较地. 我从来没有做过"老外"的生活 - 其实我有点傻, 有点倒霉, 但我就在这里张大,发展, 特不想, 也不能做"老外"的那样子. 那样是我觉得最老外, 也最恶性得.

Then there is the racist superiority of Overseas Chinese, who look down on the actual Chinese who did not leave "this/that horrible place/culture". I: won't even start on that shit. 去你们妈.

Personally, I've only lived a third of my life here. I know people who are second, third, fourth, fifth generation whites in Greater China/East Asia. Are the Persian Jews more "Asian" by dint of being doubly Asian?

I came on to this site because I was looking for pics of the Gore fiance: is he hot? I waxed stancy because of a thread claiming that it is racist/self-loathing not to date men of one's own race. I started this thread because I couldn't post a reply there, thinking it was restricted to approved posters, so I posted an intro, then after much reading around realized said thread was closed.

大木, 老孙哦, 谢谢你们提请我, 我为什么原来就搬来亚洲了. To Damu and Lao Sun, what? Shall I apologize for being born white? 我不会的; 我就是我, 好象你们最自己的"民族"不太字性. I: was reluctant to post here at all, too reminiscent of the banana, er, AZN! power crap I encountered in college as a SoCalGal/Mandarin speaker. I am surprised yet not that these attitudes persist into adulthood. 黄豹万岁! Long live the Yellow Panthers. 我和你们没话说: I know there is nothing I can say to such attitudes. 祝你们好运好名. No hard feelings: good life and good luck.



白上海小姐:

不要怕: 我不會咬你的!

城都也不錯, 可能沒有上海那么先進吧. 那邊的食物是很好吃的, 只是太麻辣吧. 我最喜歡的川菜是宮寶雞丁和魚香茄子. 我還能明白一些四川話. (they pronounce it Si3 Chuan 1 Hua 3 instead of the standard Si4 Chuan 1 Hua 4 :wink: )

Anyways I actually did have an enjoyable time in the PRC, I already posted my experiences in another thread:

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=32763&page=2

yeah well I only spent 3 months in Chengdu but it was well worth it imo.

[BaiSanghei]

What's funny, CBC, is that 宫宝鸡丁 and 鱼香茄子 get oft mocked as total faux Americanized Chinese foods by ABCs - but actually they are very standard in ML China. I don't find Mala to be that spicy, but then again I love the hard core Hunan Xiangcai, and chomp them chilis myself. (That...may explain a lot...)

Immigrant experiences really range. I know white Americans who've immigrated to Europe, Chinese who've emigrated to England and Canada and the US and Japan, all remaining resoundingly white collar. A lot of people migrate singly, not as couples or families. I was dirt poor and quite young when I moved here, and built my entire career and adult life here, and it was pretty tough at first, although nothing compared to the coolies of yesteryear or the snakehead-smuggled of today of course. Yes, may expatriates are perfectly decent people, and not all of them make idiots of themselves: but most do.

In a nutshell, I moved here to escape my insane family, had to go somewhere scary (to them) enough that they wouldn't follow me. Being raised right-wing, fundamentalist christian also makes me really discomfitted by the many threads of that in mainstream America. And I have always been really into languages and history, and the particularities of 20th centery China caught my fascination quite early on. I studied here during college, and quite caught the "China bug".

The "Co-Prosperity Sphere" is not something that should ever, ever be mentioned in a positive light. Then the Nanyangs like Lee are complex: wanting to be distinct from and superior to the Southeast Asians, but also they are wealthier and feel better than the ML Chinese. Malays and Singaporeans do have their own issues about "Asian identity", particularly as countries built out of trading centers with little to no indigenous population, so are a mix of the three largest Asian groups (Chinese, Indian, Indonesian), but very poorly integrated. But "Asian" in the American sense as NoE Asia only is unique. Asian in the Imperial Japanese sense was "however much land we can take over and kill off the people."

[AngryABCGirl]

Hey there.

You sound kind of like a bohemian hippie type- no offense. I've done a bit of globetrotting myself.

Just a word of advice: Don't tell me people that you're an immigrant like their parents are. A White girl moving to China still isn't even the same as a Chinese or Indian family moving to the US or Britain, even a White collar ones. It really shows a lack understanding White privilege. Typing factoids in your posts about how much you know and discrepant Chinese also shows some need for White congratulation that you have some understanding of another culture- which I don't doubt you have, but you're kinda pushing it to another level where you're groveling at us to acknowledge it.

If you really are a White person that understands White privilege and not just some hippie roughing it, you'd understand that you don't deserve a pat on the back. Unless you surrender your US passport and those privileges saying you're an immigrant is downright condescending.

Besides that, people will always treat you and perceive, a White American, differently because you are different. No matter how much you understand Chinese culture and live it doesn't make your experience like ours. Live with it. You're still living a lifestyle most would envy and few would dare, but don't expect to be lauded for it. Remember you're still someone the US Consulate would go searching for and help if anything happened, especially since you are a White female. Immigrants from China have no such privilege. I don't even think that would happen with me if I disappeared in China, honestly.

I also live in Asia: in Taipei and in local housing most Americans wouldn't tolerate and work in the non-profit sector- not at an expat job. I even hold an ROC passport- but I still consider myself expat because I have an American passport and all the privileges associated with it even though I fall into the background here because I look like everyone else and get treated like everyone. But still, I know I'm not immigrant or a local, despite being ethnic Taiwanese by blood and nationality. I think you should probably too.

Plus if you truly were sensitive to AA issues, you'd be tolerant of AA "issues" because you'd understand what causes them. And don't do some azn/yellow panther mocking thing either that you have no hope of understanding those AA "issues" unless you are racially Asian and grown up with the racial oppression.

If anything to me, you seem like a WASP girl trying to get away from either her blood blue family roots and that's alright. But you don't have to claim to be anything else to post here. There are plenty of members here who aren't Asian who contribute nicely.

[SunWuKong]

In a nutshell, I moved here to escape my insane family, had to go somewhere scary (to them) enough that they wouldn't follow me. Being raised right-wing, fundamentalist christian also makes me really discomfitted by the many threads of that in mainstream America. And I have always been really into languages and history, and the particularities of 20th centery China caught my fascination quite early on. I studied here during college, and quite caught the "China bug".

see this is exactly the kind of stuff i'm talking about. in my mind, and i'm pretty sure many 1st and 2nd generation Asian Americans feel the same way, immigrant parents don't move to the US, Canada, etc, because they caught some "western bug" in college. and not because they're trying to get away from their families. if anything, leaving family behind is one of the hardest things for them to do.

hey, you speak Chinese, you want to label yourself an "immigrant" to distinguish yourself from all the other expats, that's fine, congratulations. you want to portray your being poor and living with rural people as some badge of honour, that's awesome for you. hell, i think it's great you're familiar with the local culture. but you know, you getting interested in Chinese culture and society, and wanting to be immersed in it, and wanting to get away from your family, etc - that's about the polar opposite of the reasons why Asian people immigrate to a place like the US.

[CBC guy]

What's funny, CBC, is that 宫宝鸡丁 and 鱼香茄子 get oft mocked as total faux Americanized Chinese foods by ABCs - but actually they are very standard in ML China. I don't find Mala to be that spicy, but then again I love the hard core Hunan Xiangcai, and chomp them chilis myself. (That...may explain a lot...)

Immigrant experiences really range. I know white Americans who've immigrated to Europe, Chinese who've emigrated to England and Canada and the US and Japan, all remaining resoundingly white collar. A lot of people migrate singly, not as couples or families. I was dirt poor and quite young when I moved here, and built my entire career and adult life here, and it was pretty tough at first, although nothing compared to the coolies of yesteryear or the snakehead-smuggled of today of course. Yes, may expatriates are perfectly decent people, and not all of them make idiots of themselves: but most do.

In a nutshell, I moved here to escape my insane family, had to go somewhere scary (to them) enough that they wouldn't follow me. Being raised right-wing, fundamentalist christian also makes me really discomfitted by the many threads of that in mainstream America. And I have always been really into languages and history, and the particularities of 20th centery China caught my fascination quite early on. I studied here during college, and quite caught the "China bug".

The "Co-Prosperity Sphere" is not something that should ever, ever be mentioned in a positive light. Then the Nanyangs like Lee are complex: wanting to be distinct from and superior to the Southeast Asians, but also they are wealthier and feel better than the ML Chinese. Malays and Singaporeans do have their own issues about "Asian identity", particularly as countries built out of trading centers with little to no indigenous population, so are a mix of the three largest Asian groups (Chinese, Indian, Indonesian), but very poorly integrated. But "Asian" in the American sense as NoE Asia only is unique. Asian in the Imperial Japanese sense was "however much land we can take over and kill off the people."

Those two dishes have been changed slightly from their original incarnation in Sichuan, but yes they do exist, they are delicious, and honestly in China I just order what I want and if it tastes good I'll say so. Dude, you chomp those Chinese chillies, then your palate at least gets my respect lol. :tongue: I could never do that.

Oh, so you were escaping your family? Hmm...I'm not so sure about the Immigrant part then, but I'm more laid back than a lot of people on this forum, so I'll just take it as it is. My family's tends to lean on the right side of political issues as well (gay marriage, etc) but honestly inside our family its not a big deal. "Escaping" to China to escape "oppression" seems kind of like an oxymoron, but I'm glad you like it there.

You were also talking about Japan? If you read this forum you will see that the topic of Japan's war guilt has been beaten to death, but yeah the consensus on YW= Imperial Japan = bad. It felt like a bit of a "straw man" argument there.

[BaiSanghei]

Hell, well: if I can shake up people's notions of "what" people are/should be, I have done a service. I have loads of Dalu Chinese, Hongkies, Taiwanese friends who have migrated for fairly frivolous reasons: loving English lit, loving Jewish men, loving Seattle punk, or the crasser "I can get richer if I have US/EUcitizenship". I think their reasons are mostly wonderful and beautiful and great; but my leaving to escape psychotic relations who would probably have killed me, and my family has a high fatality rate - it was a quite the matter of survival, just a question of where. Luckily, I landed in a wonderful place where I met wonderful friends and found a community that felt like home for the first time in my life. Shanghainese grow up bilingual, multicultural: Sangheiwu at home, Mandarin at school. A trading port for millenia, an immigrant magnet for centuries, Shanghai is this wonderful fusion concept: 40% local Wu Yue people, 50% immigrants from the rest of China, 10% non-Chinese. For a cultural freak like me, it has proved the perfect hometown. I was so immensely lucky to stumble upon this wonderful place.

ABCgal: you have me pegged fairly well. I am immensely boho, although I am too young and too anal to be hippy-esque. I am an arts activist here - and being female is much harder than being a laowai (another long rant there). Thank you for great comments and critiques - I don't yi bai agree, but quite lao lu and insightful.

I find the laowai factor vanishes quite quickly. I am a monkey for the first minute, then am talking monkey for another few minutes, then...I get to become human. And then people are really great, they overcompensate for their initial "poke the monkey!" objectification by being fabulously nice and friendly and sincere and open-minded. I experience this almost daily.

I feel that it ultimately steams down to: Where is your home? What do you call home, and why? Is it a temporary or a permanent home? Why? I also know Slavs, French, Brasilians, Canadians, Japanese, Koreans, Indonesians, Hongkongers who are permanent immigrants to China. Then vastly more who are temp and perm intra-china migrants. And then the many who are "expats": here for work but with no intention of rooting down.

Hence, I am equal parts offended and amused by being called an "expatriate". This is my home, and this is the only place I have ever really belonged. I really, really love my hometown, and I really, really love living here. I also really, really love America. Although I hate what it has become, especially since I left a decade ago. Yet I really love America, and what it stands for ( but not what it wobbles for).

[DaMuo]

In British, it means Pakistani.

Um, I think it means a bit more than Pakistani in common usage in England.

I have done a service. I have loads of Dalu Chinese, Hongkies, Taiwanese friends who have migrated for fairly frivolous reasons

That's nice, but I don't think your circle of friends represent the majority/typical chinese immigrant. And what is crass about being able to chase opportunities in US/EU to make a better life for yourself and for your family? That is SO insulting! I don't think that is a frivolous reason!


if I can shake up people's notions of "what" people are/should be,

You are right, perhaps you are not an expatriate. In fact, reflecting on your sentiments and statement the are more akin to colonial sentiments than an expatriate sentiments. Reading your lecture-like prose makes me think I'm being thrown back in time to the time dilettantes and adventurers from the West came to Shanghai to experience "culture" -- ie. slumming -- and tell all their friend back home about their "experiences". Expats are at least there to do BUSINESS.

[BaiSanghei]

At what point does an immigrant become "American"? With green card? With passport? With residency? What to make of the many who resided as foreigners, who now travel back to the US twice annually to maintain the green card, and will rarely if ever go back once they obtain US citizenship as a political insurance policy?

Are they "more American" than my Taiwanese former teacher, who because her workplace sucks, cannot apply for US citizenship despite living there for two decades? She ultimately entered an abusive marriage in order to get a green card. The shit she has gone through makes me so embarassed to be an "American" (but America is two continents, not a country, yet griglish has no terms for US-ese.)

I also know so many US, UK, Canada-er Chinese who lived there briefly, speak no English. It pisses me off, the contrast between the rich/well-connected convenience/statusers, and the residents who really do shit, and contribute so much to US society.

If I come off as arrogant, it is because I know what I am talking about, and I pull no punches. But I also make no dirty attacks. 你呢?

I shall try to resist the racist baiting. Oh, I am quite used to defusing Asian (and white) supremecy; just the American PC opaques are a re-newed hue, left behind a decade ago, evolved unrecognizably to me since. I do admire people who tackle the racist trolls; I feel though that my energies are better expended outside of the "blogosphere". (算了和再喂难离开. 用普通话写上海话更难.)

[DaMuo]

Are they "more American" than my Taiwanese former teacher, who because her workplace sucks, cannot apply for US citizenship despite living there for two decades? She ultimately entered an abusive marriage in order to get a green card. The shit she has gone through makes me so embarassed to be an "American" (but America is two continents, not a country, yet griglish has no terms for US-ese.)

I also know so many US, UK, Canada-er Chinese who lived there briefly, speak no English.


Again, why does the people you know represent the totality?



If I come off as arrogant, it is because I know what I am talking about, and I pull no punches. But I also make no dirty attacks. 你呢?


It's statements like "I know what I am talking about" that I am finding problems with -- not race issues. Could it be possible that you DO NOT know the whole story? A little humility please!

I don't know about dirty attacks but I'm making a direct attack at somebody who claims to have become integrated into the culture yet comes off to a Chinese person (me) as an arrogant expatriate.

Spare the "I know what I'm talking about" <because "I'm living the life"> and show us with participation in the forums.

[BaiSanghei]

Certainly: I do not know the whole story - the wonderful is the wealth of stories out there! Nor do my friends, enemies, acquaintences represent the entirity. But: I do know a lot of people, I like to ask questions, I do have a mildly decent concept of some issues. I will readily admit that my American contexts are dated, I have not lived there for a decade. And I realize I ought to have the maturity to not bite back to certain attacks, no matter how calculated they are to torment me like a misplaced acupuncture needle harassing the wrong nerve.

When I do socialize in English, it is in awkward politesse if not outright ugly battle with the Expatria you refer to. Oh, I know exactly what you mean, and I sympathize and agree, and I regret that I have waxed so defensive as to seem one of that society. But I also know A-A arrogance and ignorance quite intimately, and how such stereotypes of Caucasians are used as smokescreens against A-A racism towards...well, everyone. Asians, often likewise, depends on where though.

Your home is your home. Identity is, or at least should be, more about where you call home than where your skin color defaults you.

[BeTheReds]

Your home is your home. Identity is, or at least should be, more about where you call home than where your skin color defaults you.

Hey Bai,
I've read a lot of what you're saying and I really don't want to be mean, but you don't need to prove anything to the members of this board. It seems like you want our validation or something or for all of us to agree with you. That's not going to happen.

I spent a long time in Japan and am currently living in Korea, and I deal with these same problems you do all the time. Just brush it off and keep living, because as long as you are happy it does not matter what other people think. Asking AA's to accept you as one of them by virtue that you know "their culture" more than they do is downright insulting. You don't know what it's like to grow up in the US as an Asian American and you never will.

Your analogy to identity being your home is also suspect. Although my home is Silver Spring, Maryland, I have very little reason to identify with most Silver Springers or Marylanders save for a stereotypical appetite for crabs and watching losing baseball teams. I can't really identify with most of the people there, although I can certainly identify with the place.

In self identity, it's the people, not the place. Part of that is the people accepting you as one of their own. It's a harsh truth, but it is a truth. I know you're already used to it, so start dealing rather than complaining about it.

[didu]

@BaiSanghei: sup! and welcome to the board! Does your user name mean anything at all?

@everyone else: please chill, I don't think the new girl came here to specifically piss you off.

[monkeygone2]

^ i don't know BaiSanghei personally, but I know who she is.

she's been through battles in the us and it seems to continue in the place she calls home.
i could be wrong (i'm sure i'll hear it from her), but she's so used to having to stick up for herself... it may come off as arrogance?

she's a cool person and she's been through alot to get where she is.

pretty cheesy, i know.

[BaiSanghei]

Xia ya nong. Didu, BaiSanghei means white Shanghai; Shanghai is pronounced Sanghei in the local language (Sanghei Uu).

The battles I deal with here are quite different from the ones in the US. Here, I'm a highly pokeable exotic talking monkey, but people mostly mean well and are bemusedly friendly. Within my neighborhood, where I've lived nearly seven years now, I am the resident Caucasian mascot, and have the lovely experience of having hundreds of Ayis and Shushus looking after me (and pressuring me to get married, gossiping about my love life, ugh).

There is a growing degree of justified hostility here towards foreigners, be they white or overseas Chinese or other Asians, acting like idiots and assholes in China. It is small scale, and easily defused, as I try very hard to not be like that, as people quickly recognize. Of course, when there are massive anti-foreigner riots, like against the Japanese in 2004 or against the Americans in 1999, there is not time or opportunity to explain oneself. I have a friend who is a very sinified Japanese, and I wonder how he survives the harassment he gets.

Reds has a point (and go Silver Springs! My uncle and his family's in Rockville - nice place to visit 啦), and I realize that I have reacted overly defensively here. The knee got jerky. My buttons got pushed.

One of those is the association with the neo-colonial shabi laowai-men (dumb cunt foreigners) - who I unfortunately have to deal with sometimes for work, and trust me I detest them more than you do. I will sometime post some ugly antidotes - racial sellout, yeah that's me!

Another, as I already have said: several of my best friends growing up are Taiwanese-American, and through hanging out with them I was often the token whitey in the Taiwanese/Chinese/Asian groups. That made me familiar with the range of AA attitudes: the laid-backs and bananas, the activists, the segregationists and the supremacists. Of course, the latter two sorts were not pleasant to my presence. The segregationists I sympathise if disagree with: the belief that US minorities need their own separate space to preserve "their culture", to be empowered, to resist the mainstream. The supremacists: well, a lot of Asians and AAs do believe they are the master race, and are not shy about declaring it. My high school had a not-so-secret secret society called the Chinese Elite Group - who hilariously, apart from their ringleader, were the biggest loser boys at school.

The CEG sorts aside, my high school was pretty wonderful. My friends dealt with so much shit from their moms, and we commiserated much, as my mom is also psycho - in her uniquely WASP way, pressuring me to under- rather than over-acheive. Okay, my non-TA friends were mostly Jewish and Persian, and I got some grief about my half-Arab boyfriend, and my TA childhood best friend had been forced by her mom to disown me (I was a bad influence, although more of a nerd and a better student than her), and then there was the constant bitch fest between the Taiwanese and the Chinese (KMT Taiwan, Hongkies, the poor token mainlander) moms. Still, comparatively, SoCal youthdom was this great heady integration, at least to me as the product of conservative Christian WASPdom.

At my East Coast college, though, during the height of PCdom in the mid-1990s, the segregationists reigned, and I resisted being shunted to my fellow WASPs. Who were mostly smug, wealthy, self-important, anti-intellectual; while I was slopping fast food to pay my way through the ivy league (and, am still paying), and I was and am a total, unapologetic, but unobvious geek. I had and have some wonderful individual friendships, but never fit into any group - except for the international students, which perhaps influenced my decision to emigrate. Belonging is overrated, but having a community where you are accepted and embraced is not - which I really found for the first time in Shanghai, and is why I call it home.

I have never much gotten along with my fellow American WASPs, including most of my own family, for the smug, oblivious, self-righteous ignorance that 90% of them (us.../?) have. Slap in religion, and it is really insufferable. Ironically, I had very few white friends - until I moved to China, where I encountered a wonderful array multiplely hyphenated, multilingual, even more confused than I am, more or less caucasians. Europeans, West Asians, Latinas, and then a lot of fellow emigre, Shanghainese men loving NoAms.

That I offend, I suspect, in part is because I waxed defensive and combatative. Sorry. Another part: amongst Caucasian-Americans, there is a dichotomy between the racist conservatives and the white-guilt liberals. I have no guilt. I am a progressive and a humanist. I am aware of white priviledge, and do my best to dismantle it, while avoiding situations where I might be tempted to exploit it. I refuse to apologise for my race, which I can't exactly help, or for the behavior of my ancestors - trust me, they've fucked me up way more than they fucked up you. I won't apologize for being white: yes I am freakish and pinkish and hairy, but none of us choose our genetics. We choose to be the people we are, the cultures we adopt and adapt to, the values we embrace. I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Caucasian-American, but I am quite proud to be a SangheiNing.

[BeTheReds]

It's Silver Spring...

I don't go around calling your hometown Shanghais....

hehe.

[DaMuo]

That made me familiar with the range of AA attitudes: the laid-backs and bananas, the activists, the segregationists and the supremacists. Of course, the latter two sorts were not pleasant to my presence. The segregationists I sympathise if disagree with: the belief that US minorities need their own separate space to preserve "their culture", to be empowered, to resist the mainstream. The supremacists: well, a lot of Asians and AAs do believe they are the master race, and are not shy about declaring it. My high school had a not-so-secret secret society called the Chinese Elite Group - who hilariously, apart from their ringleader, were the biggest loser boys at school.


Wow, come to an AA board. Group us into stereotypical labels. Then call us losers. I'm sure you are doing a great job endearing yourself to all of us here.

[AngryABCGirl]

Hey, I welcome you to participate the board, but realize it's really not your place to critique Asian American groups or identities. People will be a lot more friendly that way.

[BaiSanghei]

大摸, I'd like to hear your arguments why you consider those categories to be "stereotypes", and whether/why you consider them inaccurate or nonexistant. Certainly, every school or social group is different.

I don't buy the stance that outsiders aren't allowed to be critical. There are different views and valuable perspectives from the outside looking in sometimes as much as from the inside looking out. A dude on the street can't say whether my tea's gotten cold, but he will notice before I at my desk that my roof's on fire. As long as it's constructive and not mean-spirited, criticism is good.

(And: "place"? Um...)

Okay, if I'm not allowed to critize people/things, can I make fun of them instead? :wink:

[DaMuo]

大摸

Umm... that's not my name. stop trying so hard to impress.

I'd like to hear your arguments why you consider those categories to be "stereotypes", and whether/why you consider them inaccurate or nonexistant. Certainly, every school or social group is different.

Because last time I looked there was not a registry of AA that I could simply look it up. Those are labels that you applied to people.


I don't buy the stance that outsiders aren't allowed to be critical. There are different views and valuable perspectives from the outside looking in sometimes as much as from the inside looking out.

Okay, if I'm not allowed to critize people/things, can I make fun of them instead? :wink:

Um... no, and no. Outsiders that are being critical should keep it to themselves. And no, if you are not allowed to criticize, you cannot make fun.

The point is: Participate, but don't lecture us on being Asian/Asian American.

[AngryABCGirl]

Umm... that's not my name. stop trying so hard to impress.

Because last time I looked there was not a registry of AA that I could simply look it up. Those are labels that you applied to people.

Um... no, and no. Outsiders that are being critical should keep it to themselves. And no, if you are not allowed to criticize, you cannot make fun.

The point is: Participate, but don't lecture us on being Asian/Asian American.

Yeah I don't mind you participating at all, in fact you have a lot to contibute. But you have to keep in mind the Asian experience, no matter how many Chinese friends you have and what you've done, is something you just don't have.

Hell, I grew up in LA with tons of Mexicans and really identify with Chicano culture as a part of culture I grew up with, in fact it's the biggest thing I miss from America, and can speak Spanish fairly well, and have worked with Latino activists in Si Se Puede! immigration rallies, but I'd never claim I know what it's like to be Mexican or Chicano and what they should be like.

[BeTheReds]

Yeah I don't mind you participating at all, in fact you have a lot to contibute. But you have to keep in mind the Asian experience, no matter how many Chinese friends you have and what you've done, is something you just don't have.



Bai,
That's just downright offensive. While it might be true that many of us have not lived in Asia and that you have extensively, that doesn't in any way make you more a member of the Asian race. Furthermore you will never know what its like to live as an Asian in the United States. Sure your experiences of living as a Whitie in Asia might be similar, but even then, it's not the same. Criticism, I think, is fine, but really you have to get used to the fact that some readers aren't going to value your criticism because honestly, you can't claim to understand Asian America simply because you live in Asia. Asian-Americans, especially ones who at least grew up with immigrant parents have a more logical connection to the Asian homeland than even you do. I know you don't like it. I know it hurts your pride. But get used to it. Take my earlier advice, and if you are happy, fine, stay happy and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. Your attempt to out Asianize us makes you look incredibly stupid.