Male Allies to the APIA Feminist Cause

[tripostrophe]

Male Allies to the APIA Feminist Cause

As I wrote in my previous post, I see no reason why the APIA community is so heavily divided along gender lines. We waste so much energy waging wars against the opposite gender, and yet accomplishing little advocacy for change.

That is not to say that several issues faced by the APIA community do not more strongly affect one gender than another. Given national statistics of anorexia and bullimia that show that these disorders predominantly affect young girls over young boys (anorexia, for example, is 10 times more prevalent amongst girls than boys), it is not inconceivable to assert that the similar ratios will be found within the APIA community. Emasculation stereotypes (by definition) predominantly impact Asian American men over Asian American women while Asian American women face the conflicting hypersexualization stereotypes of the dominating whore and the submissive Lotus Blossom. And yet, the impact of these issues on Asian American women remains an unspoken topic: rarely does our community rally behind protests of the images of Asian American women as prostitutes in the media, nor have we spent energy targeting high rates of domestic violence or eating disorders within our female population.

The very fact that there exists a disparity in the vocalization of issues that predominantly affect Asian American women necessitates an Asian American feminist voice. But to believe that Asian American feminism exists solely to advocate victimization or diminishment of APIA men is inaccurate and counter-productive. Further, these attitudes further silence the voices of APIA women by dimissing our politics as irrelevant or exceptionally divisive. The Civil Rights Movement, for all that accomplished, still perpetuated sexist attitudes against African American women. Within the Black Panther Party, for example, were several male extremists who felt that the rape or sexual domination of Black and White women were not only within the rights of a Black man, but were actually revolutionary acts that furthered the progress of Civil Rights. Threatened with accusations of racial insubordination should they protest, Black women largely allowed Black men to accept the limelight in the Civil Rights movement, believing that speaking out would only serve to tear the movement apart.

As Asian Americans, we can learn from this precedent. We should attempt to build bridges between men and women, not allow one narrative to dominate over that of others. To that end, there should be room within the APIA community not only for a recognition that APIA feminism is a necessary and worthwhile school of thought, but APIA men should establish themselves as allies to this struggle. Certainly, APIA women should accept male allies into the fold of our feminism — the presence of male allies can help us to reach out to the APIA community and help us develop strategies for combatting the sexism within our community.

Male allies should recognize that Asian American feminism is a perspective that establishes equal rights for Asian American men and women, and will include issues that overlap with feminism at-large. Feminism does not advocate superiority of APIA women over APIA men, and is free to advocate for APIA male issues. Yet, APIA feminism is also involved in addressing the unique obstacles related to sexism within Asian/Asian American cultures, including disparate treatment of daughters compared to sons, mothers compared to fathers, and wives compared to husbands. Fundamentally, APIA men should recognize that despite the racism they face from without, they experience also male privilege within the community that gives them rights and freedoms denied to their APIA sisters. Importantly, male allies should speak out in favour of feminism and feminist thought in the face of sexism — particularly in discussions where APIA women are largely excluded from.

Surprisingly, there are few APIA male allies out there who are willing to claim their title as such. So many seem to demonize the APIA feminist movement rather than to seek out what we have to offer. And yet, APIA feminism, itself, is on the rise amongst young Asian American women.

If the APIA community is in danger of falling apart, it is this unwillingness to breach the gender divide that will do us in. As a feminist, I have participated in several protests aimed at conquering the emasculation stereotype and yet have seen only the same tired, sexist treatment from APIA men. It is tempting to point the finger at APIA men and fall back into the comfortable routine of finger-pointing, but at the end of the day, it accomplishes nothing. Instead, I simply want to ask — why aren’t there more APIA male allies to the APIA feminist cause willing to step up and participate in healing the rift in our community?

http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=730

Good article. Personally, I support APIA feminism/womanism, but I have a personal grudge against "feminism," as in white feminism which is a very racialized movement that often shuts out women of color. But then again, it's not like I personally know...but I've read up on it, talked w. people about it.

[SunWuKong]

i'm all for supporting Asian American women in the issues they face. and especially when you're talking about problems of media stereotyping, what Asian men and women face are just different sides of the same coin to me. but i wouldn't call myself a feminist. i mean, what is a "feminist"? i think what constitutes "feminism" is elusive in and of itself in this day and age. there are certainly some issues we can all agree on, like opposing domestic violence and rape, but does agreeing on a few issues define a movement? ask about 10 women what "feminism" is and i'll bet you'll get at least a few different answers.

[tripostrophe]

^Couldn't you say that about any movement though? I'm sure APIAs all have different goals and visions for the community, despite the things that some of us agree upon.

[SunWuKong]

^Couldn't you say that about any movement though? I'm sure APIAs all have different goals and visions for the community, despite the things that some of us agree upon.

depends on which "movement" you're talking about. back when the idea of feminism was first introduced, there were clear goals like woman's suffrage, with people that were organising, marching, writing letters, and with people who are seen as leaders of the movement. the people who were either directly involved or that supported the people involved, they were the feminists. even in the 60s, the feminist movement was a concrete thing that was a part of the Civil Rights movement. but nowadays, i don't know what a feminist is supposed to be.

[tripostrophe]

depends on which "movement" you're talking about. back when the idea of feminism was first introduced, there were clear goals like woman's suffrage, with people that were organising, marching, writing letters, and with people who are seen as leaders of the movement. the people who were either directly involved or that supported the people involved, they were the feminists. even in the 60s, the feminist movement was a concrete thing that was a part of the Civil Rights movement. but nowadays, i don't know what a feminist is supposed to be.

Have you checked in on the feminist movement lately, or do you know much about it? Because to be honest I don't know as much as I probably should, but I doubt it's as disorganized as you're saying. I mean, APIAs don't exactly have a concrete set of goals with a game plan outlined or anything, yet we still know about it, right? I think feminism is probably same as ever...equality for women.

[tripostrophe]

Sun Wu, did you move this thread? It's in the wrong forum. It should be in men's. If it's only women reading the article, there won't be much beyond agreement, disagreement, and complaining amongst women who are probably already invested in their gender ID, who have already realized this all. It'd be more useful if it were moved to the men's section where we can read, learn, and discuss.

[SunWuKong]

Sun Wu, did you move this thread? It's in the wrong forum. It should be in men's. If it's only women reading the article, there won't be much beyond agreement, disagreement, and complaining amongst women who are probably already invested in their gender ID, who have already realized this all. It'd be more useful if it were moved to the men's section where we can read, learn, and discuss.

i actually moved it to Rant, and someone else moved it to the Women forum. to the mod who moved it out of Rant - i'm going to move it back to Rant because i want to encourage both men and women to comment.

[tripostrophe]

Okay, thanks Sun! And sorry, my mistake.

[Paradox]

IMO, APIA feminist groups draw a lot of keynote authority figures that I vehemently oppose such as Amy Tan and Maxine Hong Kingston. This is one reason why i'd never visibly support a group that trumpets APIA female rights even though I believe in a lot of their arguments on rights. I don't feel that APIA causes have matured or advanced enough to offer a focused cause without lots of racial/cultural bias influenced by white academia. People like Amy Tan are the cause celebre' of the APIA feminist movement but they have arguably done more harm to APIA relations overall with their myopic and pandering view of asian women for white mainstream consumption.

[Banana]

Not only that, many Asian men are wary of joining in with these APIA feminists because it always turns into Asian male bashing.

I'm all for supporting feminist causes but not when it turns into a "Asian male hate and white men are all good" fest.

[AngryABCGirl]

Not only that, many Asian men are wary of joining in with these APIA feminists because it always turns into Asian male bashing.

I'm all for supporting feminist causes but not when it turns into a "Asian male hate and white men are all good" fest.

That wouldn't be a feminist cause then.

[SunWuKong]

Not only that, many Asian men are wary of joining in with these APIA feminists because it always turns into Asian male bashing.

I'm all for supporting feminist causes but not when it turns into a "Asian male hate and white men are all good" fest.

do you know this from personal experience?

[Banana]

yes.

[tripostrophe]

IMO, APIA feminist groups draw a lot of keynote authority figures that I vehemently oppose such as Amy Tan and Maxine Hong Kingston. This is one reason why i'd never visibly support a group that trumpets APIA female rights even though I believe in a lot of their arguments on rights. I don't feel that APIA causes have matured or advanced enough to offer a focused cause without lots of racial/cultural bias influenced by white academia. People like Amy Tan are the cause celebre' of the APIA feminist movement but they have arguably done more harm to APIA relations overall with their myopic and pandering view of asian women for white mainstream consumption.

I'll admit that I haven't had much exposure to very many APIA feminist groups, and I'm going to be hypocritical right here (though w. a different group), but if it's an [APIA] feminist group, isn't it worth supporting, despite the white feminist biases? After all, if you're not going to offer alliance with them, then you're just going to be another (APIA) male whose sympathies outweigh his actions -- an armchair revolutionary, like those /white liberals/ who are so TOTALLY into our culture but couldn't give two shits about our well-being as a people. But if you're an active ally, then you have more credibility when you bring up such issues as racism w/in the feminist movement -- more possibility for change, and getting them to see APIA males as potential allies, rather than enemies.

And did you really mean all APIA causes in general? Because I see your point, but I think womanism and multi-ethnic alliances, etc. have been gaining prominence, but then again I know very little about the current state of APIA affairs.

Also, I'm going to have to read Kingston before I pass judgment on her. Tan too, I guess...I recently read some comments that said in her books the racist male-bashing isn't as prominent. *shrugs*

[tripostrophe]

Not only that, many Asian men are wary of joining in with these APIA feminists because it always turns into Asian male bashing.

I'm all for supporting feminist causes but not when it turns into a "Asian male hate and white men are all good" fest.

I don't care if that's your limited experience but seriously you can't just dismiss all APIA feminist/womanist movements because of that. And I don't know how common that really is, but you have to give the females equal voice and support in their issues. And really, that's not going to be the issue half the time.

And I'm thinking that a specifically womanist APIA movement is necessary, just as every individual racial movement was necessary w/in the greater civil rights movement -- otherwise, you have minority voices being overshadowed. Ideally, every APIA movement could take into account the issues that the other minority groups w/in it face, but that's not going to happen all the time -- so eventually, a feminist/womanist APIA group will probably end up forming. And if they were formed because of a lack of support w/in the greater, general APIA organizations then there's probably going to be an element of bias against males, and those who were not willing to support them in the first place. So you probably already have a problem in its founding. This isn't the fault of the women though -- we have to look at the situation ourselves, acknowledge our biases and why/how they caused this rift. Better yet, consider what we could've done in the first place to prevent such things from happening and apply them to current and future situations.

So support APIA women now!!! Enough bashing on sellouts with sexist language will cause many APIA feminists/womanists in general to turn away and form their own movement.

...after all, they're still our sisters yeah? They've just been misguided, like we've all been at one point.

[Banana]

oh, i'm not dismissing them at all, guy.

what i'm saying is that i know why some asian guys who are interested might be wary.

[tripostrophe]

oh, i'm not dismissing them at all, guy.

what i'm saying is that i know why some asian guys who are interested might be wary.

guy?

And okay, I see your point, but that's like somebody recounting the heterosexist bias within the APIA community to potential LGBQT allies; sexism within the APIA movement to potential female allies; etc. Not very helpful to anyone. I do recognize that it is your opinion though, and you are free to express it.

But yo seriously, try getting involved in a local organization if you have any -- see how you like it.

[AngryABCGirl]

Wanted to have this thread go a bit before posting a long response, I'd like to see more people discussing this. We have so many stupid posts on this board lately.

So for one, don't be so quick to call us sellouts and saying we have it easier. So many guys complain they get no love from Asian women, and then call us bitches. What shocker. Does antagonizing one another really bring our community forward? No I don't think so.

I think this is an good example of APIA Feminist Organization: http://www.napawf.org/

They've focused on issues regarding reproductive rights, healthcare, human trafficking, and domestic violence. I donate to them monthly to this day.

I don't think APIA community has gone to the point where say in a united sense, Black feminism has gone because the diversity in its demographics. However I think it's fair to say all women of color met certain kinds of opposition in their feminist movements as being see as factious and "against their men."

It is true the feminist groups in communities of color will inevitably raise uncomfortable questions of sexism and homophobia in the community that people don't really want to address.

I do disdain White feminist notions and find that movement to be largely incapable of addressing non-White women. It's a different ballgame.

What can men do? I think the answer is simple just by seeing some posters on the board is to look beyond the scope of the Asian American experience just in the view of the Asian American's man experience. All you see is whiny Asian guys on message board complaining they can't get dates or are emasculated and the out-marriage rate. Rarely do I see any introspection or sympathy on how this adversely affects the lives of Asian women. I and I think most Asian women you know will tell you how they've been hit on by disgusting White guys thinking we're easy meat or catcalled and seen as weak submissive and sexual. There have also been numerous cases Asian women have also been stalked.

There's also paying more attention to domestic issues and health issues. Rates of depression and suicide among young Asian American women are amongst the highest and is not just a women's issue by a community issue. Domestic violence is also a serious issue in the APIA community. You've got issues of services not available to immigrant women because of language barriers.

So support a feminist cause? Volunteer or donate to a domestic violence center or non-profit. One for example: http://www.my-sisters-house.org. Most non-profits are overwhelming run by women, and could use the support of their Asian brothers.

Also difficult to address is patriachy that does exist in the Asian community (as it does in all, including White people) due to cultural notions and also the weakened role of Asian male in US/Western society. This really does effect women negatively. I don't think I'm going out to la-la-land in saying that SOME men who lack power in society take their anger out on women. Let's also face many Asian cultures have sexist notions that perpetuate into the men in our communities. This doesn't mean White guys are better or whatever, patriachy exists everywhere. Any Asian women who claims to be a feminist and has that notion does not have a strong sense of self.

In addition to feminist cause, there's also the issues of guys and I think Asian Americans in general of supporting a closely related one- of gay and lesbian Asians.

[tripostrophe]

Wanted to have this thread go a bit before posting a long response, I'd like to see more people discussing this. We have so many stupid posts on this board lately.

So for one, don't be so quick to call us sellouts and saying we have it easier. So many guys complain they get no love from Asian women, and then call us bitches. What shocker. Does antagonizing one another really bring our community forward? No I don't think so.

I think this is an good example of APIA Feminist Organization: http://www.napawf.org/

They've focused on issues regarding reproductive rights, healthcare, human trafficking, and domestic violence. I donate to them monthly to this day.

I don't think APIA community has gone to the point where say in a united sense, Black feminism has gone because the diversity in its demographics. However I think it's fair to say all women of color met certain kinds of opposition in their feminist movements as being see as factious and "against their men."

It is true the feminist groups in communities of color will inevitably raise uncomfortable questions of sexism and homophobia in the community that people don't really want to address.

I do disdain White feminist notions and find that movement to be largely incapable of addressing non-White women. It's a different ballgame.

What can men do? I think the answer is simple just by seeing some posters on the board is to look beyond the scope of the Asian American experience just in the view of the Asian American's man experience. All you see is whiny Asian guys on message board complaining they can't get dates or are emasculated and the out-marriage rate. Rarely do I see any introspection or sympathy on how this adversely affects the lives of Asian women. I and I think most Asian women you know will tell you how they've been hit on by disgusting White guys thinking we're easy meat or catcalled and seen as weak submissive and sexual. There have also been numerous cases Asian women have also been stalked.

There's also paying more attention to domestic issues and health issues. Rates of depression and suicide among young Asian American women are amongst the highest and is not just a women's issue by a community issue. Domestic violence is also a serious issue in the APIA community. You've got issues of services not available to immigrant women because of language barriers.

So support a feminist cause? Volunteer or donate to a domestic violence center or non-profit. One for example: http://www.my-sisters-house.org. Most non-profits are overwhelming run by women, and could use the support of their Asian brothers.

Also difficult to address is patriachy that does exist in the Asian community (as it does in all, including White people) due to cultural notions and also the weakened role of Asian male in US/Western society. This really does effect women negatively. I don't think I'm going out to la-la-land in saying that SOME men who lack power in society take their anger out on women. Let's also face many Asian cultures have sexist notions that perpetuate into the men in our communities. This doesn't mean White guys are better or whatever, patriachy exists everywhere. Any Asian women who claims to be a feminist and has that notion does not have a strong sense of self.

In addition to feminist cause, there's also the issues of guys and I think Asian Americans in general of supporting a closely related one- of gay and lesbian Asians.

Hey, thanks for your input ABC. Good balance in examining things.

...bump.

[Sven]

Well adding on the ABCs part the heterosexual/normative AA male.

[Dimeron]

I think the main problem is that most APIA male who are willing to stand up to a cause usually have different priority. Issues such minority rights and APIA rights, which affects far more people and has direct effect on the them selves are focused on first. Followed perhaps by the un-fair treatment of APIA males by the media and general stereotype surrounding APIA males.

To sum it up, most APIA males have enough issues and problems that are far more wide spread and affects APIA male on very personal levels that APIA feminist cause are just lost in the shuffle.

Another issue is that APIA feminism is really fractured. You have groups that just want to help the unfortunate souls who are smuggled to North America sex slaves and help those on the receiving end of domestic violence. Then you have militant groups that seems to blame all their problems on “oppressive” Asian patriarchy and generally don’t give a damn about AM and APIA as a whole as long as AF are getting paid the most. Unfortunately, the ones that scream the loudest are what the people hears.

That, and the general perception that APIA female are higher than APIA male on the racial/demography/Acceptance ladder really doesn't help things.

[SunWuKong]

That, and the general perception that APIA female are higher than APIA male on the racial/demography/Acceptance ladder really doesn't help things.

oh please. sexual objectification is not acceptance.

[Dimeron]

oh please. sexual objectification is not acceptance.

Which is why it is general perception, not the reality.

[huangalex]

Sexual liberation = Rejection of heritage
Assimilation = Dating a white guy
Ethnic pride = Proud of being a "Geisha girl" (I've literally heard a girl say this)

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that this kind of mentality is more pervasive within the Asian community than in any other racial demographic.

But that is something totally different from the whole emasculization deal that Asian Man is obsessed about.

The issues of self-hate, low confidence, and especially fetishized media portrayal and public perception are her problems as much as his. I think that's the key something that cannot get through many guys' heads.

"Women hold up half the heavens." -PRC propaganda
Never question the infinite wisdom of the PRC...

[tripostrophe]

I just read an article (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=761) from reappropriate, and sort of realized (though it's one of those obvious things we tend to forget), one thing we can do is to try and hold people accountable when they use sexist, demeaning, misogynistic language.

Even if it's used in situations where the females being described HAVE indeed bought into racist/sexist systems, it ultimately detracts from our ability to have respect for our sisters who stand beside us. I know this personally -- the messages that I've been inundated with have really warped my view of things, and even now I struggle with an unrealistic good/bad dichotomy when it comes to APIA females. I'm working on it though, and one thing that I'm sure will help is avoiding use of derogatory terms to describe people. Whenever you separate any group into the bad majority and the good minority (or even vice versa), it becomes so much easier to suddenly view the "(model/good) exceptions" in a negative light whenever there is conflict with them for whatever reason.

[Paradox]

Sexual liberation = Rejection of heritage
Assimilation = Dating a white guy
Ethnic pride = Proud of being a "Geisha girl" (I've literally heard a girl say this)

I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that this kind of mentality is more pervasive within the Asian community than in any other racial demographic.

But that is something totally different from the whole emasculization deal that Asian Man is obsessed about.

The issues of self-hate, low confidence, and especially fetishized media portrayal and public perception are her problems as much as his. I think that's the key something that cannot get through many guys' heads.

"Women hold up half the heavens." -PRC propaganda
Never question the infinite wisdom of the PRC...

Like it or not this is part of the Asian-american legacy. It's fairly shameful and I really wonder how the next generation of asian-americans will view all this. I can't even imagine the kind of identity/social issues the hapas who come up from some of the more warped pairings will have to go through. I began to distance myself away from America in general because I don't want my kids to live with the stigma or artificial social limitations placed on them. I want them to grow up in a international environment and I will teach them to choose the best out of both western and eastern society instead of mindlessly conforming to a racial standard.

Anyways, our generation didn't just lose the fight we decided to oppress our own to gain acceptance. To me that is the lowest you can go.

[tripostrophe]

Like it or not this is part of the Asian-american legacy. It's fairly shameful and I really wonder how the next generation of asian-americans will view all this. I can't even imagine the kind of identity/social issues the hapas who come up from some of the more warped pairings will have to go through. I began to distance myself away from America in general because I don't want my kids to live with the stigma or artificial social limitations placed on them. I want them to grow up in a international environment and I will teach them to choose the best out of both western and eastern society instead of mindlessly conforming to a racial standard.

Anyways, our generation didn't just lose the fight we decided to oppress our own to gain acceptance. To me that is the lowest you can go.

I don't think we've quite cemented a legacy yet -- and though I can understand the cynicism, I hardly think that's all we've done so far. Even though a lot of people within the community have bought into the model minority myth, and have been buying into it for quite a while now, there's always been those who are rejecting it, engaging in activism to help the community, etc.

From what I've been reading, Vincent Chin's murder was the first major event that got APIAs to rally together under the pan-ethnic identity of Asian American. So even in the 80s there was something.

And I plan to maybe move to Hawaii or something, just so my kids have the people around them to balance out all the negative messages about their identity they'll be getting from the media.

But let's please stay on topic, this is just as important (if not more) because we need to work on the bonds between the allies who already have chosen to self-identify as APIA.

[tripostrophe]

trite and tiresome issue just like the wm/af interracial dating brouhaha

asian man: oh my god look at the interracial dating disparity between asian males and asian females. i'll never get a date. i have it so tough. blah blah blah.

asian woman: i'm an asian woman. i'm a double minority. i'm oppressed two times over. i have it so tough. blah blah blah.

my take on this is the same as my take on the whole wm/af issue: better you than me. but, i do wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

But nobody seems to be doing anything about it. Even in the small personal ways that can easily be enacted in everyday life, or even posting on the forums. And I know you probably don't care if anyone thinks you're being selfish, but if we're not helping each other out as members of the APIA community, how do you expect us to get anywhere in terms of organizing and activism? And I'm not trying to be critical, but I'd like to know why you remain a part of yellowworld? For you, what's in it that keeps you active here?

[deez nuts]

trite and tiresome issue for me just like the wm/af interracial dating brouhaha

asian man: oh my god look at the interracial dating disparity between asian males and asian females. i'll never get a date. i'll never get married and my bloodline is screwed. i have it so tough. blah blah blah.

asian woman: i'm an asian woman. i'm a double minority. i'm oppressed two times over. asian males don't support me. i have it so tough. blah blah blah.

my take on this is the same as my take on the whole wm/af issue: better you than me. but, i do wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

[tripostrophe]

Woah is it just me or does your first post appear after mine? [/glitch!]

But yeah are you being serious? What caused the change? Because I was snooping around in the archives and it seems you weren't always this detached and "above it."

[deez nuts]

And I'm not trying to be critical, but I'd like to know why you remain a part of yellowworld? For you, what's in it that keeps you active here?

initially to meet chicks. but cuz the well has dried up in that department, it's just to flaunt my chinese'ness to the abc's and show them what a l33t 1.5 genner i am.

[deez nuts]

But yeah are you being serious? What caused the change? Because I was snooping around in the archives and it seems you weren't always this detached and "above it."

yes. not gonna lie, meeting chicks was the main factor in joining though i'm not gonna come right out and say it when i first joined. asian american clubs in college were a great place to meet abc chicks.

but to be fair, there are a few issues that pop up on occasion that i deem as important to me.


Woah is it just me or does your first post appear after mine? [/glitch!]


it's my bad. i'm erasing my double posts cuz of whatever glitch. but, i kinda keep misclicking the post i want to delete cuz i'm surfing www.dump.com at the same time.

[huangalex]

Speaking of feminism, this (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=761) from reappropriate.

The whole deal about female voice being silenced obviously isn't exclusive to APIA but it seems to be more prevalent within our community. I still don't quite understand the rationale behind the threat mail besides hypersexuality. Someone explain?

[tripostrophe]

yes. not gonna lie, meeting chicks was the main factor in joining though i'm not gonna come right out and say it when i first joined. asian american clubs in college were a great place to meet abc chicks.

but to be fair, there are a few issues that pop up on occasion that i deem as important to me.




it's my bad. i'm erasing my double posts cuz of whatever glitch. but, i kinda keep misclicking the post i want to delete cuz i'm surfing dump.com at the same time.

Cool. Could I ask which ones? And also, why they are important to you/take priority?

[tripostrophe]

Speaking of feminism, this (http://www.reappropriate.com/?p=761) from reappropriate.

The whole deal about female voice being silenced obviously isn't exclusive to APIA but it seems to be more prevalent within our community. I still don't quite understand the rationale behind the threat mail besides hypersexuality. Someone explain?

Ha cool to see someone else who reads the blog. But are you sure about it being more prevalent in our community? I think that there may be a tendency for APIA females to be silenced through what society imposes on them as women + members of the "model minority," but I honestly don't believe that APIAs are any more active (or less active) in repressing the voice. But it IS definitely a problem. Haven't seen too much of it to a bad degree on this forum, but then again I'm a male so maybe I'm trivializing it.

[deez nuts]

Cool. Could I ask which ones? And also, why they are important to you/take priority?

the ones that allows me to make more money and meet more chicks.

[tripostrophe]

the ones that allows me to make more money and meet more chicks.

so affirmative action in the workplace and the dating disparity, right? :tongue: Don't you already make a crapload? Because you're a doctor or something...

[deez nuts]

so affirmative action in the workplace and the dating disparity, right? :tongue: Don't you already make a crapload? Because you're a doctor or something...

sure if it means i get the majority if not sole piece of the pie (in the case of getting chicks: fur pie) thereby cock blocking the others, i'm all for it.

but unfortunately letting in the masses that don't have a piece of the pie means more competition and possibly less pie for me. in terms of getting more women: i already having no problems getting women, letting in the masses that haven't previously gotten the women also means more competition potentially less fur pie for me.

i love pie. i hate to share my pie.

[deez nuts]

but, i will say this:

some of the asian male apathy towards the asian feminist cause can be attributed to the asian male gripe with the IR dating disparity.

using yw as an example, any IR gripe in regard to WM/AF and the dating disparity is basically trivialized whereas a topic like this one in regards to APIA feminism everybody is expected to jump aboard and embrace. i'm almost gonna guarantee you that a lot of the asian males hesitant on APIA feminism are the same ones that are the most vocal and possibly disgruntled on the IR dating disparity. why? because the IR disparity has probably instilled some distrust towards asian females in them.

perhaps if APIA feminism is that important to you and you want to win over the more hesitant asian males on APIA feminism, maybe listen to their rant instead of dismissing it in a knee jerk holier than thou reaction. i can pretty much guarantee you that you'll find most of them ranting about the IR disparity.

let's use two people that posted in this thread as an example. you obviously don't have to win over guys like swk cuz he is a stud and he already has a girlfriend, a swell sensitive dude etc etc etc to the APIA feminist cause. but in this thread, banana has voiced apprehension and somewhat of a negative personal experience towards APIA feminism. he also happens to be one of the more vocal about the IR disparity where a majority of us dismisses in a knee jerk and almost condescending reaction whenever the topic is brought up.

it's about reciprocation. reciprocation is very prevalent in chinese culture. but from my experience, the concept of reciprocation is definitely lacking and somewhat lost amongst the abc's. can't say for any of the other asian ethnicities just chinese. of course, this also applies vice versa if the more vocal people want support in regards to IR dating disparity to maybe show some degree of support towards those that feel strongly about APIA feminism.

it's not a hard concept to grasp. it's definitely not neursosurgery we're talking about here. it's just the concept of cause and effect that most infants start to learn and develop at 4-8 months old. hahahaha.

personally, i don't stand anything to gain in both of these issues so i don't really give a shit about either of these issues to care enough to invest anything into either of them.

[AngryABCGirl]

Ha cool to see someone else who reads the blog. But are you sure about it being more prevalent in our community? I think that there may be a tendency for APIA females to be silenced through what society imposes on them as women + members of the "model minority," but I honestly don't believe that APIAs are any more active (or less active) in repressing the voice. But it IS definitely a problem. Haven't seen too much of it to a bad degree on this forum, but then again I'm a male so maybe I'm trivializing it.

I've read the blog before, I find it pretty disturbing, but pretty believable.

I think women are silenced in general when addressing issues, all women because women's issues don't get as much as attention as general issues affecting everyone, kind of why women's issues had to be singled out in the first place.

It gets more tricky to not just APIA women but all women of color and in minorities, because we're seen as being divisive or immediately called sellouts who date white guys. That undertone seems to alway exist even if there is no direct correlation to talking about APIA women's issues and the dating disparity.

I think one of my friends who is Latino is works at a non-profit back in California regarding domestic violence issues and does a lot of Spanish language activities and educational whatnot say it best when she explained that the reaction that any implication of addressing any chauvism is seen as "trying to be like White people or trying to be like those White Women." It's hard to find balance and address women's issues when you are a part of a culture that is seen as inherently backwards to American culture and finding compromises. I think this is applicable to Asians as well.

I'd say yellowworld is pretty friendly venue, mostly because there is a good team of mods that includes a lot of women who can kick some cajones if necessary. Plus people here are a bit more level-headed and have a lot more perspective on different things out there than just this issue, although I wish there were bit more people wanting to probe things on a deeper level or have more topics to discuss.

[AngryABCGirl]

but, i will say this:

some of the asian male apathy towards the asian feminist cause can be attributed to the asian male gripe with the IR dating disparity.

using yw as an example, any IR gripe in regard to WM/AF and the dating disparity is basically trivialized whereas a topic like this one in regards to APIA feminism everybody is expected to jump aboard and embrace. i'm almost gonna guarantee you that a lot of the asian males hesitant on APIA feminism are the same ones that are the most vocal and possibly disgruntled on the IR dating disparity. why? because the IR disparity has probably instilled some distrust towards asian females in them.

perhaps if APIA feminism is that important to you and you want to win over the more hesitant asian males on APIA feminism, maybe listen to their rant instead of dismissing it in a knee jerk holier than thou reaction. i can pretty much guarantee you that you'll find most of them ranting about the IR disparity.

let's use two people that posted in this thread as an example. you obviously don't have to win over guys like swk cuz he is a stud and he already has a girlfriend, a swell sensitive dude etc etc etc to the APIA feminist cause. but in this thread, banana has voiced apprehension and somewhat of a negative personal experience towards APIA feminism. he also happens to be one of the more vocal about the IR disparity where a majority of us dismisses in a knee jerk and almost condescending reaction whenever the topic is brought up.

it's about reciprocation. reciprocation is very prevalent in chinese culture. but from my experience, the concept of reciprocation is definitely lacking and somewhat lost amongst the abc's. can't say for any of the other asian ethnicities just chinese. of course, this also applies vice versa if the more vocal people want support in regards to IR dating disparity to maybe show some degree of support towards those that feel strongly about APIA feminism.

it's not a hard concept to grasp. it's definitely not neursosurgery we're talking about here. it's just the concept of cause and effect that most infants start to learn and develop at 4-8 months old. hahahaha.

personally, i don't stand anything to gain in both of these issues so i don't really give a shit about either of these issues to care enough to invest anything into either of them.


I hope that wasn't a side stab at me cause that's pretty weak considering I work in Asian business culture and have to practice what you're mentioning everyday at work. I wouldn't say reciprocation is unique to Chinese culture, it's everyday logic like you said, it just becomes more emphasized because Chinese culture is more relationship-based (as opposed to individualism or collectivism) and not so in America. And that's it, if some ABCs are like, then it makes sense. Oh geez American culture blow doesn't it? And seeing people who are American and not White fall into must be end of the world. Ending the sarcasm now.

In any case though, I'll admit I've been pretty brutal to people on this issue, along with a lot of others. At least I didn't say I wanted to kick people in the balls like other people had and then replied that they wouldn't feel it like some of the male posters have though. Talk about getting burned by your bros.

But in any case, I think people do need to wake up to the reality that there are more problems than the ones directly affecting them only. Sure it might burn and scare some people, but if it can make some people think and step out of their bubble, then I'll run with it.

I needed that wake-up call a long time ago too considering I grew up as a privileged brat. For example I never really needed to investigate the immigration system because my family members easily naturalized, etc. I went through my phrase of just hating the cops and White people and acted like a punk too, but I woke up and realized there was more shit out their to be worried about and consider and do something about.

So in terms of reciprocation to Asian America, for me personally, I've worked in Asian American and progressive causes since I was old enough and able to. In terms of this board, in the past and now have been making an effort to plug independent Asian American media (because isn't that really the force we want to change the media image?) that people don't really get to heard about because I've worked for independent Asian American media organizations and get more info about them.

But I've also done a lot of work in immigrant rights advocacy, voter registration, and domestic violence issues- and that's something that's really gotten to my head about APIA women's issues. I still donate to APIA related comunnity orgs and foundations every month or quarterly depending on which with my US credit card even though I've pretty much jumped ship because it's important to me. I've given my support to the community wholeheartedly beyond a reasonable doubt. Many people, on this board I am sure, have done far more than I have, but I think I have earned my right to call people out for just sitting and complaining.

One big thing is when talking about the IR dating disparity, some guy will always inevitably make a statement about women having it easier. Some dude just isn't thinking and when a woman has gotten that crap for so long without men caring and thinking it is easier, we get sick it. In fact it's borderline sexist to call a woman out to give men a time of day to listen to their issues, when it's women's issues that aren't at the forefront most of the time, only "community issues" from the perspective of men.

The thing is problems in a minority community: in some cases it's harder for APIA women (access to healthcare and support away general silencing of women in society that still exists in general). It some cases it's harder for APIA men (harder to be accepted, harder to find low-skilled jobs and stable jobs than women, seen more as a competitive threat).

But then oh no oh wait no it's harder for the APIA gays. Oh wait no it's harder for the APIA lesbians. Oh snap.

No one is gonna win the oppression olympics like this here, and issues of the community all bind us. My main quip with the IR dating disparity is most people don't bring anything new to the table or fail to consider the women and then blame them. Dude, that's not gonna solve anything. I think a lot of Asian guys feel so burned and spurned already that when they hear a complaint from any Asian women about them complaining they feel immediately threatened- but we're really actually complaining about the same problems living in a racist society that binds us both and not against each other in most cases.

I actually use to think of feminism as a bunch of silly white girls setting their undies on fire and screaming and having their head and shit, but it's not that simple or outrageous. For men for me personally just means supporting your fellow woman, because supporting her is supporting your community, and supporting yourself. The main reason why APIA feminism exists is because women's issues don't get the spotlight, and this is a way to address them. It's actually in the best interest of everyone because different issues hit men and women differently and need to be looked at that way or else nothing can done right.

I know there are a lot of Asian women who blame to be feminist but insult Asian men, but that's not feminism, that's identity self-confusion and self-hatred. A real woman, a real feminist, would realize accept herself and learn that patriachy exists everywhere. That woman is what I would call confused and has her own issues to work out, and I will try hard to not begrudge her for it.

So, I've definitely made my efforts, sorry if my abrasiveness sucks or is too abc, but asinine and sweeping comments about groups of people isn't really logical and insulting. I would make jokes all day about the neurotic 1.5 gen-ers I meet living in a dreamworld of how they think they are still so very Asian when they probably have more in common with someone like me, but I don't because I know that's not everyone and its rather immature and rude. I think I said enough to make my point seriousy.

But deez nuts was a near example (though much in jest) of women's voices not often being taken seriously because they are framed in opposition to men. But the real world is dominated by men's opinions and and most scholarship in about Asian America and regarding this is by men as well. We are reciprocating by telling you how we feel about the issue- perhaps that we are sick the narrow perspective of it.

Perhaps you'd like to listen so you figure out why maybe Asian women don't want to give you time of day because you give off hostile vibes or something because I get the impression a lot of guys complain about this on the internet and then just don't want to do anything about but blame women and sulk amongst themselves while studs like deez nuts and swk are getting booty because they choose to rise above it and just go for the gold.

[deez nuts]

I hope that wasn't a side stab at me cause that's pretty weak considering I work in Asian business culture and have to practice what you're mentioning everyday at work. I wouldn't say reciprocation is unique to Chinese culture, it's everyday logic like you said, it just becomes more emphasized because Chinese culture is more relationship-based (as opposed to individualism or collectivism) and not so in America. And that's it, if some ABCs are like, then it makes sense. Oh geez American culture blow doesn't it? And seeing people who are American and not White fall into must be end of the world. Ending the sarcasm now.

it wasn't a a stab at you. i don't know how you would construe it as such.

if i wanted to take a stab at you, i would've quoted you. if i wanted to take a stab at you, it wouldn't be weak. i did make the distinction between chinese and abc's? more importantly, i did say it's solely from my experience, did i not? if that is what got you on the defensive.

but, i guess i will try to assuage you if i did make you feel i was taking a side stab at you.


In any case though, I'll admit I've been pretty brutal to people on this issue, along with a lot of others. At least I didn't say I wanted to kick people in the balls like other people had and then replied that they wouldn't feel it like some of the male posters have though. Talk about getting burned by your bros.


hahaha it was fucking great when i said that. i don't give a shit about either the IR disparity issue and/or the APIA feminist cause. the only thing i gain is getting a cheap laugh kicking someone when they're down. oh and he's not a bro. i only have one brother just so we're perfectly clear.

however if a cause did come up where i feel strongly about, i would appeal to and be more sympathetic towards the causes of other people where i deem trivial and asinine as to gain their support towards my cause. i have done so on a couple of issues here on yw where i was indifferent towards and might've even felt strongly against but i still went along with it cause the majority felt strongly for the issue. anna guo being one of the said issues where i was initially indifferent towards and eventually wasn't sympathetic towards at all.



So, I've definitely made my efforts, sorry if my abrasiveness sucks or is too abc, but asinine and sweeping comments about groups of people isn't really logical and insulting. I would make jokes all day about the neurotic 1.5 gen-ers I meet living in a dreamworld of how they think they are still so very Asian when they probably have more in common with someone like me, but I don't because I know that's not everyone and its rather immature and rude. I think I said enough to make my point seriousy.


i love and admire your abrasiveness. you're also definitely more chinese than i am. i have no problems admitting to the fact. you have nothing to prove to me. i've done nothing to delve deeper and explore my roots or enhance my language skills cuz i have no interest in doing so. i don't care if an abc surpasses my level of chinkness and will gladly admit it to him or her if they were looking for affirmation. so i don't really give a shit about upping the abc's in the race, and some do view it as a race to one up one another, to see who is more chinese. if i did, i would've kept myself ahead of the curve.

also me being one of the more fluent mandarin speakers in terms of speaking, reading and writing chinese on yw and the guy that also wrote a couple of letters in chinese to anna guo's dad for some shit i forgot what for on behalf of yw; if you recall, i questioned the motivation of people posting in chinese characters in a predominantly non chinese reading and writing abc dominated yw forum in some post in an attempt to not divide the line further between abc and 1.5 gen and fobs as to not alienate those that can't read or write chinese let alone speak chinese recently in a post. that itself is saying a lot because abc's and fobs annoy the shit out of me.

[AngryABCGirl]

it wasn't a a stab at you. i don't know how you would construe it as such.

if i wanted to take a stab at you, i would've quoted you. if i wanted to take a stab at you, it wouldn't be weak. i did make the distinction between chinese and abc's? more importantly, i did say it's solely from my experience, did i not? if that is what got you on the defensive.

but, i guess i will try to assuage you if i did make you feel i was taking a side stab at you.


Cause I 've been one of the of the people kicking peopel in the balls when they're done. If anything though, I think your stabs might kind of alienate people. Although I do very much enjoy you kicking people in the balls when they're down too.

We're going to hell.

[deez nuts]

Cause I 've been one of the of the people kicking peopel in the balls when they're done. If anything though, I think your stabs might kind of alienate people. Although I do very much enjoy you kicking people in the balls when they're down too.

We're going to hell.

we're winners. we should only associate with winners not losers especially not whiny losers.

[AngryABCGirl]

we're winners. we should only associate with winners not losers especially not whiny losers.

Lol, kay back on topic:

Here's some links to APIA women's groups/issues who can explain things much better than I:

National Asian Pacific American Womens' Forum
http://www.napawf.org

Asian American Women Artists Alliance
http://www.aawaa.org/

Southeast Asian Women's Leadership Center
http://www.searac.org/womenld.html

Indus Women Leaders
http://www.induswomenleaders.org/

Audrey - Asian American Women's Magazine
http://www.audreymagazine.com/

Gabriela Network':
http://www.gabnet.org/

South Asian Women's Leadership Forum
http://www.southasianwomen.org/

New York Asian Womens' Center
http://www.nyawc.org/

Not APIA-specific but do a lot work in APIA community and minority communities:
California Coalition Against Sexual Assault
http://www.calcasa.org/

Incite! Women of Color Against Violence
http://www.incite-national.org/

Women of Color Resource Center (based in Oakland)
http://www.coloredgirls.org/

[tripostrophe]

but, i will say this:

some of the asian male apathy towards the asian feminist cause can be attributed to the asian male gripe with the IR dating disparity.

using yw as an example, any IR gripe in regard to WM/AF and the dating disparity is basically trivialized whereas a topic like this one in regards to APIA feminism everybody is expected to jump aboard and embrace. i'm almost gonna guarantee you that a lot of the asian males hesitant on APIA feminism are the same ones that are the most vocal and possibly disgruntled on the IR dating disparity. why? because the IR disparity has probably instilled some distrust towards asian females in them.

perhaps if APIA feminism is that important to you and you want to win over the more hesitant asian males on APIA feminism, maybe listen to their rant instead of dismissing it in a knee jerk holier than thou reaction. i can pretty much guarantee you that you'll find most of them ranting about the IR disparity.

Where have I done that? When have I done that? Banana, do I do that? :mad: I feel like I've always tried to approach this issue in a fair manner, or at least engage in debate if I disagree with what they have to say.

Okay, reading back through this thread I see where I kind of tried to shut Banana down -- sorry. I guess I should've allowed him to explain his personal experience and asked for suggestions as to how we can help him. That was bad of me.

let's use two people that posted in this thread as an example. you obviously don't have to win over guys like swk cuz he is a stud and he already has a girlfriend, a swell sensitive dude etc etc etc to the APIA feminist cause. but in this thread, banana has voiced apprehension and somewhat of a negative personal experience towards APIA feminism. he also happens to be one of the more vocal about the IR disparity where a majority of us dismisses in a knee jerk and almost condescending reaction whenever the topic is brought up.

it's about reciprocation. reciprocation is very prevalent in chinese culture. but from my experience, the concept of reciprocation is definitely lacking and somewhat lost amongst the abc's. can't say for any of the other asian ethnicities just chinese. of course, this also applies vice versa if the more vocal people want support in regards to IR dating disparity to maybe show some degree of support towards those that feel strongly about APIA feminism.

it's not a hard concept to grasp. it's definitely not neursosurgery we're talking about here. it's just the concept of cause and effect that most infants start to learn and develop at 4-8 months old. hahahaha.

personally, i don't stand anything to gain in both of these issues so i don't really give a shit about either of these issues to care enough to invest anything into either of them.

How are we going to reciprocate when people are being shut down all the time? But I'm hoping your mentioning it indicates you're willing to tone it down a little? :smile:

[tripostrophe]

I've read the blog before, I find it pretty disturbing, but pretty believable.

I think women are silenced in general when addressing issues, all women because women's issues don't get as much as attention as general issues affecting everyone, kind of why women's issues had to be singled out in the first place.

It gets more tricky to not just APIA women but all women of color and in minorities, because we're seen as being divisive or immediately called sellouts who date white guys. That undertone seems to alway exist even if there is no direct correlation to talking about APIA women's issues and the dating disparity.

I think one of my friends who is Latino is works at a non-profit back in California regarding domestic violence issues and does a lot of Spanish language activities and educational whatnot say it best when she explained that the reaction that any implication of addressing any chauvism is seen as "trying to be like White people or trying to be like those White Women." It's hard to find balance and address women's issues when you are a part of a culture that is seen as inherently backwards to American culture and finding compromises. I think this is applicable to Asians as well.

I'd say yellowworld is pretty friendly venue, mostly because there is a good team of mods that includes a lot of women who can kick some cajones if necessary. Plus people here are a bit more level-headed and have a lot more perspective on different things out there than just this issue, although I wish there were bit more people wanting to probe things on a deeper level or have more topics to discuss.

I'd be willing to probe things! Intellectually. And what kind of topics? Are there any that died out when they could've been great?

[deez nuts]

Where have I done that? When have I done that? Banana, do I do that? :mad: I feel like I've always tried to approach this issue in a fair manner, or at least engage in debate if I disagree with what they have to say.

did i say you specifically do that? again not directed at anybody in particular, it's just the general attitude on the topic of IR dating disparity when it comes up. i'm guilty of doing it too. but like i've stated before, i don't give a shit about the IR disparity topic or this one for that matter.

again: if i wanted to call people out, i would quote them like i am doing now.

But I'm hoping your mentioning it indicates you're willing to tone it down a little? :smile:

that's a negative, hippy.

[tripostrophe]

did i say you specifically do that? again not directed at anybody in particular, it's just the general attitude on the topic of IR dating disparity when it comes up. i'm guilty of doing it too. but like i've stated before, i don't give a shit about the IR disparity topic or this one for that matter.

again: if i wanted to call people out, i would quote them like i am doing now.

Okay, okay.

that's a negative, hippy.

You make my heart cry bitter tears. :frown: