"Descendants of the Dragon" - the Han Chinese

[Seraphfire]

Has anyone ever heard this in reference to the Han Chinese ethnicity?

I don't ever recall this reference or maybe my relatives said it but I didn't understand it. Can anyone sound this out in Cantonese for me?

Wondering what is the modern usage of this term. Is it considered rude or antiquidated?

Thanks for any insight!

[kimpossible]

Sounds very male and penisy.

[Tao]

Sounds very male and penisy.

really? ...i don't see it.

[kasia]

in canto, i think it's "lung dik chuen yun"

in mandarin, similar - "lung tik chuan ren"

i hear chinese ppl refer to themselves as that.

[Seraphfire]

in canto, i think it's "lung dik chuen yun"

in mandarin, similar - "lung tik chuan ren"

i hear chinese ppl refer to themselves as that.
Thanks Kasia. I am just really surprised to have never heard it.

When Chinese people refer to themselves as that, it is really amongst themselves and in what context. Like is it like "Oh I am a hillbilly" or like is it with pride, etc. Thanks again, trying to get an idea of the common usage. :smile:

[kasia]

with pride. like i hear it in the soap operas when one person is trying to encourage another. e.g., "we are lung dik chuen yun. we should be able to overcome this."

[SunWuKong]

龍的傳人
Mandarin: Long De Chuan Ren
Cantonese: Lung Dik Chyun Yan

the subject was made into a song i think in the 70s and since has been re-made many times. the original version was a slow song. Wang Lee Hom did a hip-hop sounding rendition of it, but i think he added extra lyrics to the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vkdM9X8D4

and here's a rock version by HK band Beyond from probably the late 80s or early 90s.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei=UTF-8&b=76&vid=381193&gid=161744

lyrics:
遙遠的東方有一條江，它的名字就叫長江，
遙遠的東方有一條河，它的名字就叫黃河。
雖不曾看見長江美，夢裡常神游長江水，
雖不曾聽見黃河壯，澎湃洶湧在夢裡。

古老的東方有一條龍，它的名字就叫中國，
古老的東方有一群人他們全都是龍的傳人。
巨龍腳底下我成長，長成以後是龍的傳人，
黑眼睛黑頭髮黃皮膚，永永遠遠是龍的傳人。

百年前寧靜的一個夜，巨變前夕的深夜裡，
槍砲聲敲碎了寧靜夜，四面楚歌是姑息的劍。
多少年砲聲仍隆隆，多少年又是多少年，
巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼。
巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼，
巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼。

[SunWuKong]

Thanks Kasia. I am just really surprised to have never heard it.

When Chinese people refer to themselves as that, it is really amongst themselves and in what context. Like is it like "Oh I am a hillbilly" or like is it with pride, etc. Thanks again, trying to get an idea of the common usage. :smile:

it's not exactly a common saying in conversational Chinese, but the term is used to express pride in being Chinese.

[AngryABCGirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vkdM9X8D4

One by Leehom, he adds portions about his family immigrating to New York and growing up into a Chinese guy in another land.

[Seraphfire]

Thanks all for the info!

Here's a hypothetical question. If you were a Chinese-American parent, would you incorporate some aspect of "Descendants of the Dragon" to describe your heritage to your children? And if so, what would you do?

Or, as a Chinese-American child, what aspects of being "Descendants of the Dragon" appeal to you and would make you more aware and proud of your heritage?

Trying to work some ideas out here. i.e. We are American by nationality, Asian-American by culture, Descendants of the Dragon by heritage. Something like that that kids can understand and gravitate to.

P.S. SWK, would you be able to provide an English translation of those lyrics? I'd like to see in what context that songwriter chose to frame the term. Thanks!

P.P.S. Yes Kim, it does sound quite male and penisy. But I don't see why girls wouldn't find appeal in the term also. :)

[SunWuKong]

P.S. SWK, would you be able to provide an English translation of those lyrics? I'd like to see in what context that songwriter chose to frame the term. Thanks!

i'll try, but i'm not sure how to translate the last few lines very well. someone else might be able to do a better job.

遙遠的東方有一條江，它的名字就叫長江，
Far to the East is a long river, its name is Changjiang,

遙遠的東方有一條河，它的名字就叫黃河。
Far to the East is a river, its name is Huanghe.

雖不曾看見長江美，夢裡常神游長江水，
Though I can't see the beauty of Changjiang, in my dreams I drift on Changjiang's waters,

雖不曾聽見黃河壯，澎湃洶湧在夢裡。
Though I can't hear the sounds of Huanghe, I hear its crashing waves in my dreams.

古老的東方有一條龍，它的名字就叫中國，
To the ancient East there is a Dragon, its name is China,

古老的東方有一群人他們全都是龍的傳人。
To the ancient East there is a people, they are all Descendants of the Dragon.

巨龍腳底下我成長，長成以後是龍的傳人，
At the Dragon's foot I grew up, grew up to be a Descendant of the Dragon,

黑眼睛黑頭髮黃皮膚，永永遠遠是龍的傳人。
Black hair, black eyes, yellow skin, forever to be a Descendant of the Dragon.

百年前寧靜的一個夜，巨變前夕的深夜裡，
A hundred years ago on a quiet night, before a night of great changes,

槍砲聲敲碎了寧靜夜，四面楚歌是姑息的劍。
Sounds of cannons broke the quiet of the night, surrounding the enemy is the sword of appeasement.

多少年砲聲仍隆隆，多少年又是多少年，
Many young people, yet sounds of cannons kept ringing, many young people, many young people yet.

巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼。
Great Dragon, Great Dragon, wipe clean your eyes, forever wipe clean your eyes.

巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼，
巨龍巨龍你擦亮眼，永永遠遠地擦亮眼。

a few notes:
1. "Changjiang" is better known in English as the Yangtze River. "Huanghe" is the Yellow River. both of these rivers are attributed for the rise of the Chinese civilisation, and is often mentioned in historical works.

2. the reason i wrote "long river" in the first line and just "river" in the second line is because Yangtze is referred to as a jiang (江), and Yellow River is referred to as a he (河). both words could really only be translated as "river" in English, but a jiang is definitely bigger/longer than a he.

3. the tenth line incorporates an ancient Chinese idiom - "四面楚歌" - it basically means that you're surrounded by enemies. it's a reference to when the Han state conquered the Chu state to establish the Han dynasty. it roughly translates to "Chu Songs from Four Sides". the ruler of Chu was said to have heard Chu songs from all four sides during Chu's last battle before it was conquered, and then he felt like he had lost his country.

4. i actually started wondering about the lyrics of the last few lines because they didn't seem to make much sense. so i googled for some information. apparently the song was written by a guy in Taiwan in 1979 after the US and the PRC formalised relations and the US stopped its official recognition of the ROC. the song was written to express frustration at this development. the line "四面楚歌是姑息的劍" was originally written as "四面楚歌是洋人的劍", roughly meaning, "surrounding the enemy is the Westerners' sword". so you can see that much of the sentiment of the song was nationalism in the face of western aggression. the ROC government depended on US protection at the time, and it made the writer change the line so as to not anger the US.

[Adaon]

Man, I keep seeing the river character and thinking to myself, that's my last name, woohoo.

I just forgot how to write the rest of it. -cries-

[deez nuts]

i was wondering wtf you guys were talking about till i read the chinese lyrics just now.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2vkdM9X8D4

and here's a rock version by HK band Beyond from probably the late 80s or early 90s.

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei=UTF-8&b=76&vid=381193&gid=161744


what in zeus' butthole did they do to song that my mom sang and taught me when i was a little kid? especially the legion of boy band chiggers rapping in english. fuckers.

[deez nuts]

Trying to work some ideas out here. i.e. We are American by nationality, Asian-American by culture, Descendants of the Dragon by heritage. Something like that that kids can understand and gravitate to.


it's pretty much at best a karaoke song now, dude.

[SunWuKong]

here's what the original sounds like, i think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhdafQDIOg&mode=related&search=

[Seraphfire]

Thanks for the translation.

Have the Han Chinese referred to themselves as the "Descendants of the Dragon" since ancient times or was this term created in the 1970's (assertion by a Wiki entry.) I can't seem to find an authoritive citation as to the origin on this. :frown:

P.S. Kind of annoyed I keep finding articles that state: "Chinese people consider themselves descendants of the dragon." Makes it sound like we literally think we are the spawn of a beast. Shouldn't the proper wording be Chinese people will refer to themselves as descendants of the dragon?

[deez nuts]

bwahahahahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRsfWb5zZkk&mode=related&search=

[SunWuKong]

bwahahahahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRsfWb5zZkk&mode=related&search=

yeah i saw that. hehheh...

[SunWuKong]

P.S. Kind of annoyed I keep finding articles that state: "Chinese people consider themselves descendants of the dragon." Makes it sound like we literally think we are the spawn of a beast. Shouldn't the proper wording be Chinese people will refer to themselves as descendants of the dragon?

don't get trapped in the Western idea of what a dragon is now.

the Chinese idea of a dragon is benevolent, and the emperor was often referred to as a dragon.

[AngryABCGirl]

don't get trapped in the Western idea of what a dragon is now.

the Chinese idea of a dragon is benevolent, and the emperor was often referred to as a dragon.

Hence people wish for the sons to become like dragons and their daughters to become like phoneix (es?). That's why at Chinese weddings and banquet halls and at imperial palaces you seen the dragon and the phoneix and why a lot of Chinese guys have dragon as their name and Chinese women have phoneix as their name.

[AngryABCGirl]

Thanks all for the info!

Here's a hypothetical question. If you were a Chinese-American parent, would you incorporate some aspect of "Descendants of the Dragon" to describe your heritage to your children? And if so, what would you do?

Or, as a Chinese-American child, what aspects of being "Descendants of the Dragon" appeal to you and would make you more aware and proud of your heritage?

Trying to work some ideas out here. i.e. We are American by nationality, Asian-American by culture, Descendants of the Dragon by heritage. Something like that that kids can understand and gravitate to.

P.S. SWK, would you be able to provide an English translation of those lyrics? I'd like to see in what context that songwriter chose to frame the term. Thanks!

P.P.S. Yes Kim, it does sound quite male and penisy. But I don't see why girls wouldn't find appeal in the term also. :)

As a Chinese-American, I sing this song at KTV, Leehom is one of our finest. Born and raised in New York, defered the model minority path of becoming and doctor and going to Williams to study music, and then went to Taiwan, learned to speak Chinese, and then became one of Asia's best artists.

My future children in hopefully a really long time will be embarassed me and my friends' karoake renditions of the Leehom version and not want to be Chinese.

Just kidding.

I don't know what I do especially. I got past that identity crisis portion of my life the plagued my later adolescent years and early college years already to know that it's not something I have to act on, but something that I am, and I think a lot of the basis of that was general insecurities about life and low self-esteem for reasons unrelated to being Asian and more to being an adolescent.

I can't actively make my identity or thinking one thing or the other.

I'm too young to think rationally about this now, but I think I want my kids to have a similar ethnic enclave growing up experience as I have, perhaps with a bit more multi-cultural contact. I'll do what I do, and they can decide on who they are themselves later, whatever Chinese part of me will pass by osmosis the way my family, my peers, and my neighborhood, and experiences passed it on to me. I would like them to spend some years in Asia though to be at least literate in Chinese and it's very good for identity formation. I'd also try to pass on my Taiwanese citizenship to them since compulsory military service will be gone soon.

[Seraphfire]

This is what disturbs me, I cannot find any source of the "Descendants of the Dragon" description beyond the 1970's song/poem. If the Han Chinese truly described themselves as such we should see it in tons of ancient poems, literature, etc. :frown:

[SunWuKong]

This is what disturbs me, I cannot find any source of the "Descendants of the Dragon" description beyond the 1970's song/poem. If the Han Chinese truly described themselves as such we should see it in tons of ancient poems, literature, etc. :frown:

it's possible that it's a very modern term. either way, it's just a reference to how the dragon is a cultural symbolism of Han Chinese culture and identity.

[AngryABCGirl]

This is what disturbs me, I cannot find any source of the "Descendants of the Dragon" description beyond the 1970's song/poem. If the Han Chinese truly described themselves as such we should see it in tons of ancient poems, literature, etc. :frown:

I looked around on kimo.com / yahoo taiwan on their answers portion. A couple of people mentioned the theory that back in the day when Chinese civilization was developing in present Northern China area just happens to be where there are a large collection of world's dinosaur fossils are (it's speculated Europeans found them too and created the monster dragon myth). It's speculated that our ancestors found them and instead created the myth of the dragon as a benevolent and wise being and eventually came a cultural symbol. That later became incorporated into myths and paintings that we are people of the dragon. Nothing mentions specific works of literature about the exact wording of 龍的傳人, but rather just of the dragon has an enduring cultural symbol and that "we are people of the dragon" so to speak from the mentions of dragon kings, dragon's heroic actions etc. in various novels and legends. Dragons are generally very positive in Asian cultures, a vietnamese told me that the dragons came to help the Vietnamese drive out the Chinese(!) and that the mother dragon gave birth to all Vietnamese people.

Anyway, I'm very not well read up on Chinese except for some 金庸 novels, but I have the impression not many occasions called for people to refer to themselves in this nationalistic way back in the day, there's more names for outsiders. It's a good thing to tell your children I think nonetheless in incorporating some ethnic pride, I think the song just put a unique twist on it. It will always be a classic too.

[hannle]

Thanks all for the info!

Here's a hypothetical question. If you were a Chinese-American parent, would you incorporate some aspect of "Descendants of the Dragon" to describe your heritage to your children? And if so, what would you do?

Or, as a Chinese-American child, what aspects of being "Descendants of the Dragon" appeal to you and would make you more aware and proud of your heritage?

Trying to work some ideas out here. i.e. We are American by nationality, Asian-American by culture, Descendants of the Dragon by heritage. Something like that that kids can understand and gravitate to.


slightly off topic here,
my sis' mom in law once told my niece when we had an earthquake that there was nothing to worry about,it was the dragon that was just turning in his sleep....=)

[kasia]

it's possible that it's a very modern term. either way, it's just a reference to how the dragon is a cultural symbolism of Han Chinese culture and identity.

it's a modern term. i know because they never say it in the old kungfu movies but only in the soaps after the 70's. :biggrin:

[deez nuts]

you guys do know the song was composed in 1978 and the original intent of the song is more political than historical, right?

[SunWuKong]

you guys do know the song was composed in 1978 and the original intent of the song is more political than historical, right?

yeah i posted about that earlier after i did some reading about it.

[Seraphfire]

you guys do know the song was composed in 1978 and the original intent of the song is more political than historical, right?
Yes, exactly. Which is why I am disturbed that things like the Wikipedia entries are implying the Chinese have always referred to themselves as DotD. And guess what, my wife found a local ad this weekend for a Casino advertising a Chinese troupe or something like that entitled, "Jungua, Descendants of the Dragon."

But all in all for Chinese Americans I think DotD might be a good way to give kids a sense of their heritage with the proper historical context, i.e. this is a metaphor, the dragon is a symbol of good, etc.

Would make a good title for a children's book on identity I would think.

[deez nuts]

it's just a saying and a song. i don't really see a point in getting disturbed over it.

just remember:

dragons in china = benevolent and noble. they made sweet sweet love to mother china and gave birth to us. in fact, the yangtze and the yellow river was formed by residual dragon cum cuz with over a billion people, there's gonna be a lot of cum and spillover.

all other dragons = evil and mean. people usually form a raid to kill a non chinese dragon because they have treasure aka the phat loots and also for the simple fact that they're just mean bastards. a well known tactic is to break up the raid into two groups and send odd groups to the left and even groups to the right to kill the non chinese dragon.

[SunWuKong]

Yes, exactly. Which is why I am disturbed that things like the Wikipedia entries are implying the Chinese have always referred to themselves as DotD. And guess what, my wife found a local ad this weekend for a Casino advertising a Chinese troupe or something like that entitled, "Jungua, Descendants of the Dragon."

But all in all for Chinese Americans I think DotD might be a good way to give kids a sense of their heritage with the proper historical context, i.e. this is a metaphor, the dragon is a symbol of good, etc.

Would make a good title for a children's book on identity I would think.

there's no need to dwell on the phrase itself. people just like the sound of it and started using it. like i said, it's just to highlight the significance of the dragon and its symbolism in Chinese culture and heritage.

[kasia]

a bit of a coincidence, but on the cantonese station here today, one of the deejays was explaining the phrase "lung dik chuun yun". AM 1430 - Los Angeles. Her name is Lee Wen Wei. You can check out the webpage, email her and ask for the piece that she wrote (and read aloud this morning). she really did her research.

[Seraphfire]

a bit of a coincidence, but on the cantonese station here today, one of the deejays was explaining the phrase "lung dik chuun yun". AM 1430 - Los Angeles. Her name is Lee Wen Wei. You can check out the webpage, email her and ask for the piece that she wrote (and read aloud this morning). she really did her research.
Thanks Kasia.

Unfortunately, I ran a bunch of searches but couldn't locate the right radio station or DJ. Do you have a the URL of the radio station?

[kasia]

http://www.am1430.net/

if you can't read chinese, you may just want to call them and ask for her email that way. their staff is pretty friendly.

[Gordman]

Interesting :)!

[warcry111]

it's possible that it's a very modern term. either way, it's just a reference to how the dragon is a cultural symbolism of Han Chinese culture and identity.

It's most likely a product of 19th century nationalism. "Long De Chuan Ren" is actually an invented tradition. There were certain instances in which Dragon Kings were worshipped in some isolated rural communities in ancient China, but they were probably borrowed from Indian Buddhist mythology rather than indigenous. Other than that, there is absolutely no evidence that the "long"/"dragon" was ever used to represent the peoples of China as a whole before the late 19th century when it was first used as such on the Qing national flag, also the first national flag of China. Probably prompted to adopt the nationalistic practices of the Western nations at the time who used animals to represent their nations (bald eagle = US, lion = Great Britain, Austro-Hungarian empire = two-headed eagle, Prussia/Germany = black eagle, etc.), the Qing created the Qing imperial flag with the dragon representing the Qing empire/China at the time.

In pre-modern China, the dragon was the symbol of the emperor and his authority over everyone else in the empire. In even earlier times, the white tiger was the symbol of the emperor's authority in battle. In fact, you would probably be beheaded in pre-modern China if you identified yourself with the dragon if you weren't the emperor. In the same way wearing yellow was only for the emperor, so was identifying yourself with the dragon. The dragon as a national animal for the Chinese is a modern creation; traditionally, the dragon represented imperial rule and the power and authority of the emperor over all his subjects.

[warcry111]

TO be certain, we know the pre-modern Chinese didn't and wouldn't dare to call themselves "long de chuan ren". Contrary to popular belief, the pre-modern Chinese did not even call themselves "Hanren" until after the Qing dynasty ended in 1911 and the rise of Republican China. "Hanren" before pre-modern times was more a political and social term rather than an ethnic one (definitely not a racial one) and was used by the northern conquest dynasties of the nomads (beginning with the Xianbei of the Northern Qi in the 6th century AD, Khitan, Nuzhen/Jurchen, Mongol, etc.) who conquered northern China to distinguish themselves from "the conquered", no matter their "ethnicity". In fact, during Mongol times in the 13th-14th century, the Nuzhen/Jurchen and Khitans were even regarded as northern Han. "Ethnicity" back then before modern times contains no biological component unlike today with all the emphasis on race and biological ancestry in ethnicity, so "ethnicity" back then is not to be understood with the modern definition which emerged with the advent of Darwinism, and twisting modern science, combining the two with politics to create today's "ethnicities"/"races".

The pre-modern Chinese generally called themselves "Huaren"/"Hua people", and in some occasions, "Huaxiaren"/"Huaxia people" and "Zhongguoren"/"People of the Central State". Before the Tang dynasty, all these terms, along with "Zhongguoren", was restricted to those people who lived in the Central Plains/Zhongyuan region of north China when it was earlier the sole focus of ancient Hua civilization. "Zhongguo" in ancient times was restricted to the Zhongyuan region, which today is roughly Shaanxi, Henan, parts of Shanxi, parts of Shandong as well as parts of Hebei, although the center is mainly Shaanxi (with city of Chang'an, ancient name for today's Xian - "Western Capital") and Henan (with city of Luoyang - "Eastern Capital"), so anything outside of this region was considered Yi/"Barbarian". More often, however, the pre-modern Chinese called and identified themselves with the ruling dynasty/empire, ie the peoples living under land ruled by the Han empire would call themselves Hanren while people living under the lands ruled by the Tang empire would call themselves Tangren, same goes for most dynasties/empires (major ones would be, of course - Liaoren, Jinren, Songren, Mingren, Qingren, etc.) that existed in Chinese history before the Republic. And these terms, if I remember correctly, are not ethnic, but solely political.


But all in all for Chinese Americans I think DotD might be a good way to give kids a sense of their heritage with the proper historical context, i.e. this is a metaphor, the dragon is a symbol of good, etc.

Would make a good title for a children's book on identity I would think.

IMHO, there's far more good ways to give kids a sense of their heritage and ancestry other than a modern invented tradition of modern nationalistic Chinese influenced by 19th century Western nationalism such as the discussed "long de chuan ren/long dik chuen yun". There's so much more interesting stuff in Chinese history that evokes a sense of heritage than anything long de chuan ren and its mythological history can evoke. Perhaps you could tell them of the glory and greatness of the Tang empire, of how everything in Tang society totally contradicts Western stereotypes of East Asians/Chinese and their history, of how the Tang empire was the equivalent of what Rome and Greece combined were to the ancient West, of how the Tang represented a strong, powerful, brilliant, free, and liberal East Asia, one that can match anything the West can boast of, relative to its time. Of how women in the Tang dynasty had far more political, economic, and social power than other women in every other society before the social and political changes of the West in the late 19th-20th century (destroys the stereotype of extremely sexist ancient Chinese who oppressed poor maidens waiting for a white knight to save them). For example, no taboo for women in divorcing and marrying - in fact it was quite common during the Tang; riding horses and playing polo and wrestling [wrestling was later established forbidden for women during the Song dynasty] with men were common hobbies of Tang-era women - tons of paintings and clay figures as well as descriptions from Tang-era surviving today to prove it; Tang-era women were granted the same rights as men to a traditional education - great number of women poets in Tang; Tang women had a chance to own even more land than men if they were widows and had dependants - all this stuff sounding so modern and practically unheard of anywhere else in the world at the time, definitely not in broke run-down medieval Europe. Of how liberal and easy-going Tang culture and society was while at the same time being brilliant and admired by the nations to its west. Of how it was the Tang who saved, housed, and provided a home for the last Sassanian prince/"emperor", the refugee who fled from Persia when it was being conquered by the Arabs and being Islamized in the 7th century AD. Of how the unipolar Tang empire at its height in 661 AD was over twice as large as the Roman empire at its height during Trajan's time and was undoubtedly the largest and strongest empire to rule the earth at the time. Of the legendary battles against the Mongolian Turks (Tujue), Yarlung Tibetans, Muslim Arabs, Central Asians, etc. for control of the Silk Road and Central Asia while Europe was in a dark age killing itself off with crazy religious fanatics running around terrorizing everyone else.



And if your kids happen to love stuff like samurai, anime, and Japanese culture, know that most of Japanese culture borrowed extensively from Tang culture, to the point where there are many visible aspects retained even in today's Japanese culture that can be traced to Tang culture (tatami mats for sitting; "traditional" Japanese music as seen today has an influential style called "Togaku"/literally "Tang music"; obsession with sword-making and swords: Ninjatos are almost carbon-copies of Tang-era two-handed swords; etc.)