Internalized Racism/IRO

[tripostrophe]

(IRO = Internalized Racial Oppression)

Does everyone here understand these terms? I didn't until recently; here are a few links that might help to define it:

http://www.djan.net/assets/cunningham0305.pdf

http://www.rc.org/publications/journals/black_reemergence/br2/br2_5_sl.html

http://www.rc.org/uer/InternalizedRacism.html

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/latinos01.htm

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l537502064346820/fulltext.pdf **
[“FOB” and “Whitewashed”: Identity and Internalized Racism Among Second Generation Asian Americans]

So basically, it refers to how after being victimized by racism, the wound never heals if the experience is not adequately addressed, and so we take that hurt and put it on either (a) ourselves, or (b) others within our community. This can be done through methods such as invalidating self, and internalizing stereotypes -- both of which I believe we see a lot of on this board, most notably around the IR dating disparity, with many AMs falling either into the category of the "whiny, self-pitying fool" or the angry individualist ladies man.

Just wanted to get a conversation going if people are interested, not sure where it'll go or where to start exactly, but I guess I will by sharing a bit of my own IRO:

+I think I "deal with" my IR by turning it into misogyny and taking it out on AFs. Friend I talk with thinks it has a lot to do with my mother, probably true.

+ FOB; twinkie; sellout; whiny asian boys; etc. -- the terms and their connotations.

+ gay-bashing; treatment/perception of hapas/mixed race peoples; TRAs; interethnic clashes; etc.

**For more articles by Pyke, follow this link here: http://www.facultydirectory.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/pub/public_individual.pl?faculty=293 ; and google the articles; they seem to be turning up okay, and I'm guessing there might be more about IRO in some of them.

[kasia]

i think i've internalized some of my past experiences with racism to an extent. although i've addressed, recognized, and can identify a lot of it as racism once i hit my high school years and definitely in college, it's hard to shed completely the learned stereotypes and what is characterized as appropriate social norms and what is fobby/inappropriate/weird - if that makes sense. so, in a sense, i'm left with having a sort of dual identity. for example, i love watching hong kong films, i speak chinese regularly with family members, yet i subconsciously feel proud that i can speak without a chinese accent and cringe at trial lawyers who do. it's irrational, obviously, but it's probably something that i learned through observing the reactions of white kids with whom i grew up to the way i spoke vs. new immigrants in our school, etc. stuff like that.

i'm sure there's more than that - but i can't think of other examples right now. there's the wanting to appear as normal and white as possible in the office or in court - at certain times - but then asserting my chinese/asian identity at other times. i guess it's embracing my identity, but feeling like i have to be on my toes so as not to be characterized as "the other" - as though being "the other" is really that bad.

[SunWuKong]

for example, i love watching hong kong films, i speak chinese regularly with family members, yet i subconsciously feel proud that i can speak without a chinese accent and cringe at trial lawyers who do.

i actually subconsciously felt proud that i spoke English with an accent when i first moved back to the US from HK a few years ago. i didn't really get any chance to speak English in the last months that i was living there and i guess i (re)acquired an accent.

[kasia]

i actually subconsciously felt proud that i spoke English with an accent when i first moved back to the US from HK a few years ago. i didn't really get any chance to speak English in the last months that i was living there and i guess i (re)acquired an accent.

that may be a form of internalized racism as well - because many immigrants look down on ABCs and feel that they have lost their identity. thus, this may be a way for you to separate yourself from an ABC and thereby feel more authentic or truly chinese. thank you for letting me analyze you.

[SunWuKong]

that may be a form of internalized racism as well - because many immigrants look down on ABCs and feel that they have lost their identity. thus, this may be a way for you to separate yourself from an ABC and thereby feel more authentic or truly chinese. thank you for letting me analyze you.

except that i didn't "cringe" when ABCs spoke perfect English.

[AngryABCGirl]

except that i didn't "cringe" when ABCs spoke perfect English.

After since moving to Taipei I've started to consciously make sure I speak perfect proper English in a situation when I need to, like at the office or something.

It's not like I'm incapable of it or anything at all, but I'm use to taking in slang and shortened words, dropping some to be verbs, and emphazing the way a lot of Asian people in LA and the Bay Area (especially in SF) talk immigrant or not, it's just a different speech pattern. I noticed I drop back into it when I hang out with other people how've grown up with the same thing. I'm/use to be actually proud of it, it really separates me right away from say, an Asian who grew up in an all-white suburb.

But now I'm acting counter-intutively against being looked down upon as a returnee, because some look down on the fact that many people, especially 1.5 gen-ers end up with both accents in their English and Chinese, and I don't want to be seen that way as being disembodied from both worlds because most people assume that is my background.

[CBC guy]

I don't know, I *do* cringe when Asians here speak bad English, but then I just laugh at YTs who try (and fail, boy do most of them fail) to speak Chinese. I guess its because I might be somewhat lucky to not have an accent in either English nor Chinese, which helps a lot.

I figure it gives me a sense of power because I can act as a mini tour-guide of sorts to Chinese who come here and to YTs who go to China/HK.

[kasia]

just a note that i said i cringe when it's done in court - not just whenever i hear a person with an accent, the reason being that the ability to be articulate and express oneself verbally is valued in court. of course, this is a white standard that i have adopted.

[eos]

i am guilty of this. growing up my friends and i all heard the usual slurs and stereotypes, etc. about chinese sounding funny, being backwards country people, blah blah blah. my family is way more americanized than my friends and they didn't mind so much, i guess. this is where my disgust of recent immigrants comes from and why i can't stand to hear toishanese. or mandarin for that matter. it's really really sick. i work in chinatown and i make sure to speak proper and succint english when non-asians come in the museum, and i'm always quick to say that i was born and raised here. i realize how i'm feeling is wrong. this is why when i have kids, i want to send them back to hk for elementary and high school, immerse them in the culture, then back here for university. i want them to have the best of both worlds, speaking perfect english, cantonese, AND mandarin.

[CBC guy]

i am guilty of this. growing up my friends and i all heard the usual slurs and stereotypes, etc. about chinese sounding funny, being backwards country people, blah blah blah. my family is way more americanized than my friends and they didn't mind so much, i guess. this is where my disgust of recent immigrants comes from and why i can't stand to hear toishanese. or mandarin for that matter. it's really really sick. i work in chinatown and i make sure to speak proper and succint english when non-asians come in the museum, and i'm always quick to say that i was born and raised here. i realize how i'm feeling is wrong. this is why when i have kids, i want to send them back to hk for elementary and high school, immerse them in the culture, then back here for university. i want them to have the best of both worlds, speaking perfect english, cantonese, AND mandarin.

YOu can't stand to hear Toishanese or Mandarin? :eek: Traitor!:wink:

[eos]

cantonese is all right with me though.

when spoken in a polite, soft manner, mandarin is lovely to my ears. when it's loud and uttered by stale cigarette-smelling louts, it's abhorrent. same with toishanese....my gran spoke softly to the babies in the family, lulling them to sleep. in public, sometimes my mom has to tell her "mo gum ai sang". nack ee tui, mah?

[AngryABCGirl]

I do cringe when I hear really badly accented English around non-Asian people when they aren't taken seriously. I want to say I'm more annoyed at the jackass who isn't trying to listen carefully enough through the accent, but sometimes I get annoyed enough-like say at target, to help the immigrant if they totally can't speak English and there's an obvious breakdown of communication, but I know it's rather condescending in certain situations and I'd rather not do it.

I cringe too in some professional settings when someone has a bad accent, because I know no one is taking them seriously, like a foreign professor, or the court room example earlier.

I also really hate it when I see rich people in Asian cities try throwing in random English when they talk in Chinese though when they obviously don't know what they're saying. They sound like a bunch of fucking dumbasses sometimes it makes me want to shoot myself in the foot. Especiacially rich kids buying urban brands saying Yo Man! in broken English when they're such a bunch of fucking brats that would be run over in America.

[hkRT]

When I was a kid, my mom used to tell us kids not to hang out with cantonese speaking kids because she thought our english would get bad. For a while, I did not feel comfortable hanging out with cantonese speaking or any asian speaking kids because of this "internalized racism".

Tripostrophe's description sums it up pretty nicely--
"So basically, it refers to how after being victimized by racism, the wound never heals if the experience is not adequately addressed, and so we take that hurt and put it on either (a) ourselves, or (b) others within our community. This can be done through methods such as invalidating self, and internalizing stereotypes -- both of which I believe we see a lot of on this board, most notably around the IR dating disparity, with many AMs falling either into the category of the "whiny, self-pitying fool" or the angry individualist ladies man.

It took me years to become comfortable with being chinese and who I am. It was a long healing process. Now I really appreciate being able to speak two languages and having been exposed to different cultures.

[CBC guy]

A tiny little rant:

How come we cringe when we see Asians speaking bad english but we are SOOO forgiving when YTs screw up Chinese? I say it should be two way street. I mean, in China when a caucasian says some really mangled and bad mandarin people always praise him/her about how his/her Mandarin is "weerry goood" and here we are talking about how we cringe when our own people mangle a foreign language. At least they're trying, like the caucasian in China who tries to speak Chinese, and should be commended for that.

On the other hand, if bad english actually is causing a breakdown in communication, I would usually jump in. Condescending? Maybe. But SOMEONE has to do the work.

I do laugh at bad English signs though. Verbal language is easy to screw up because its spur-of-the-moment, while signs should really be planned out better than they are. Japan is apparently the worst culprit but China's catching up.

[eos]

^i don't say "very good" when they mess up cantonese. i laugh. dude, i speak english. stop killing my language and trying to "impress" me. it's sad.

[kasia]

A tiny little rant:

How come we cringe when we see Asians speaking bad english but we are SOOO forgiving when YTs screw up Chinese? I say it should be two way street. I mean, in China when a caucasian says some really mangled and bad mandarin people always praise him/her about how his/her Mandarin is "weerry goood" and here we are talking about how we cringe when our own people mangle a foreign language. At least they're trying, like the caucasian in China who tries to speak Chinese, and should be commended for that.

i cringe also - probably moreso - when they try to speak chinese if they appear like they are trying to show-off or are seeking some sort of approval.

what about what we are taught about other asian ethnicities? any internalized racism there?

[Tenk]

I think it's because Asians respect whites more than Whites respect Asians.

[Adaon]

Personally, I always thought it was the fact that when, at least as far as I was shown, something was looked upon negatively (as in you or your sibs got straight A's, your parents would tell everyone how stupid/clumsy you are) it was a good thing in reality, whereas all positive praise was an embellishment to not make the person receiving the praise feel too bad. The ole reverse psychology thing.

[CBC guy]

what about what we are taught about other asian ethnicities? any internalized racism there?

Ok, before I start, let me say that my dear grandmother (God bless her soul) was a very loving person who in real life was a wonderful Grandparent up to the end. In real life, she was very respectful and polite to all she met. But in private she *did* have some "opinions" about other Asian ethnicities. As well as that, I should let you know that she was particular about cleanliness and that might have been because she grew up in a wealthy household.

I don't know about you guys, but my anglophile Grandma (yep, she studied English literature and worked for the colonial HK Gov't) was just a tad bit condescending towards Mainland Chinese. She also ranted about the "murdering Commie Russians" (which was odd IMO), "the Mainlanders" and of course "the Japanese". (in her defence she lived through the war...) Meanwhile, my dad doesn't mind Russians or Mainlanders but (still) does not like Japan or Japanese very much. He doesn't go as far as calling them names though. I don't want to start a flame war so I'll just leave it at that.

As for our knowledge of Koreans.... we really didn't talk about them too much. Just knew they existed, I guess. Remember this was before Rain and K-dramas swept HK. My grandma thought Korean and Japanese sounded the same. (they don't, but that's what she believed)

Ok, more stereotypes from her: (non-Asian)

Meanwhile she thought that the French were too arrogant, the Germans too cold, the British (yes she loved the British, but she didn't *love* them) were too hypocritical, and that Americans were good-natured but a bit boorish and "uncivilized". She had some irrational fear of Russians and Eastern Europeans and when we asked her why she just said "Red Communists!" :frown: :confused: Not a big fan of India either, she was worried sick when my dad went on a trip to India in his College days. Just thought it was, like Mainland China, "dirty." Didn't have much of an opinion on Africa as it didn;t touch her life.

Please note I disagree totally with the somewhat racist sentiments I have just described.

[AngryABCGirl]

I think one big part of internalized racism I've seen/experienced is mocking reaction to Asians in the media being badass or succeeding in areas that Asian people simply "can't" go, a big example would be reactions to Hip hop artists like Jin and a lot of other great Asian hip hop artists out there. It's like people can't believe an Asian can be good at something so assertively macho and American.

On the Asian ethnicities note, without a doubt many East Asians have a huge superiority complex toward Southeast Asians and South Asians. Asians of different generational (lack of a better) term hate on each other because one thinks they are superior to the other in some way. Ie. American-borns or people 3rd or 4th gen who look down on recent immigrants versus the people who regard them as bananas, etc. There's a lot of crazy racial shit going on there.

[SunWuKong]

^i don't say "very good" when they mess up cantonese. i laugh. dude, i speak english. stop killing my language and trying to "impress" me. it's sad.

yeah i don't congratulate them either. i usually try to correct their tones.

[AngryABCGirl]

yeah i don't congratulate them either. i usually try to correct their tones.

For some reason it actually annoys the shit out of me. It think it's because I associate with them hitting on Asian girls.

[LaiSteve66]

Sometimes me and my friends would be in public in a non-Asian owned establishment and would cringe when we'd hear a women speaking loudly in a heavy North-Vietnamese accent.

[CBC guy]

yeah i don't congratulate them either. i usually try to correct their tones.

I just overwhelm them in Cantonese or Mandarin until they give up trying to keep up with me. :wink:

I remember in Hong Kong some European tourist tried speaking "Cantonese" to me from a phrasebook and I just laughed at him and said I spoke English. Which he didn't. :confused: I suppose he was from some Eastern European country where they don't learn English. I just pointed in some random direction. :biggrin: Go figure.

[eos]

^hmm...is this a good strategy in foreign countries? i know basic french and i read somewhere that if you TRY to speak the language first, the locals usually take pity and speak in english. sorta like, "at least she tried, she's not acting like a asshole" mentality.

[tripostrophe]

i cringe also - probably moreso - when they try to speak chinese if they appear like they are trying to show-off or are seeking some sort of approval.

what about what we are taught about other asian ethnicities? any internalized racism there?

Back in high school-ish, there was sort of a "clash" between Viet and Korean Pride I think...sort of at my school, but online too I guess. But yeah, I actually try to be as accepting as I can with all the APIA identities, especially w. SE Asians/PIs, hapas, TRAs, Indians, etc. I guess most Russians haven't been interested though :(

[hooligan]

I don't know why language is such an issue. I don't have a problem with Chinese folks/immigrants speaking broken English and I speak English with no accent. It's all fine and good, as a matter of fact I think the folks who actually make it an issue is really blowing up small issues and making them defining issues.

You're family, we share similar experiences. Who cares if someone slurs their words. My parents do the same and I'm proud of them.

[Banana]

A tiny little rant:

How come we cringe when we see Asians speaking bad english but we are SOOO forgiving when YTs screw up Chinese? I say it should be two way street. I mean, in China when a caucasian says some really mangled and bad mandarin people always praise him/her about how his/her Mandarin is "weerry goood" and here we are talking about how we cringe when our own people mangle a foreign language. At least they're trying, like the caucasian in China who tries to speak Chinese, and should be commended for that.

On the other hand, if bad english actually is causing a breakdown in communication, I would usually jump in. Condescending? Maybe. But SOMEONE has to do the work.

I do laugh at bad English signs though. Verbal language is easy to screw up because its spur-of-the-moment, while signs should really be planned out better than they are. Japan is apparently the worst culprit but China's catching up.

Racial superiority.

It seems Asian people are impressed when whites take some time to lower themselves to our level and learn something about us.

[eos]

ahahahaha....this reminds me of the time some chinese class students came in the museum. they each signed in with their chinese names (pfft) and practiced their mandarin on us. one girl was talking to my dad and after she left, he said "i had no idea what she was saying to me." which i thought was funny cuz he was nodding his head and making responses to her the whole time. but i told my dad that he did her a disservice by NOT correcting her cuz now she thought she was the shit, when obviously that wasn't the case.

[Paradox]

I just overwhelm them in Cantonese or Mandarin until they give up trying to keep up with me. :wink:

I remember in Hong Kong some European tourist tried speaking "Cantonese" to me from a phrasebook and I just laughed at him and said I spoke English. Which he didn't. :confused: I suppose he was from some Eastern European country where they don't learn English. I just pointed in some random direction. :biggrin: Go figure.

You know what's funny..in Thailand a few of the white tourists (A group of swedes and a Brit) could tell i'm fluent in English for some reason even though i'm supposed to blend in with all the other asians. I haven't figured out how they know. I wear clothing purchased in Thai department stores so I don't look like i'm from the west. They just walk right up to me and ask me for directions in english with a normal tone without first using that stupid halting pidgin english they do with the locals.

I think it may be the way I walk or something..too western?

[CBC guy]

You know what's funny..in Thailand a few of the white tourists (A group of swedes and a Brit) could tell i'm fluent in English for some reason even though i'm supposed to blend in with all the other asians. I haven't figured out how they know. I wear clothing purchased in Thai department stores so I don't look like i'm from the west. They just walk right up to me and ask me for directions in english with a normal tone without first using that stupid halting pidgin english they do with the locals.

I think it may be the way I walk or something..too western?


It might be the shoes... or the hairstyle? I dunno really.

That's interesting, because I have this thing where Japanese people think I'm Japanese and Koreans think I'm Korean. Its kind of dumb when these old Japanese tourists come up to me at Stanley Park and ask me questions in Japanese which I have no idea how to answer. (I just respond: "uhh... nani desu ka?" :biggrin: ) The same story happened when old Korean grannies asked me questions IN KOREAN which I have EVEN LESS idea how to answer! :confused: :mad: (I just say... "uh.. anyong haseyo?!..." in a really bad accent)

No one else seems to have that problem.. or do you?

Then again these Mainland Chinese immigrants automatically speak Mandarin to me without even a hint of English, Hong Kongers do the same. I can at least help them more than the Japanese/Korean tourists here, but do I really look that Fobbish?

They should have gotten the clue when I was wearing my Vancouver Canucks hockey jersey (about as Canadian as it gets) and they still speak to me in Mandarin/Japanese whatever. :confused:

[tripostrophe]

If you want the article see post below.

[tripostrophe]

Sorry, i guess you do actually have to pay to see the article (maybe it's diff accessing it from like a university server?) -- so here's the file, attached.