relations between Vietnamese and Cantonese peoples

[SunWuKong]

how closely related do you think Vietnamese people and Cantonese people are? from history, we know that China had occupied the northern parts of modern-day Vietnam on a few different occasions. the first time this happened, it was during the Qin dynasty and modern-day Guangdong (home of the Cantonese) and modern-day north Vietnam were both part of the same province.

however, from an ethno-linguistic point of view, the two peoples would seem very different, being that their languages are from different language families. one clear difference i've noticed is that in the Vietnamese language, an adjective is placed after the noun it describes. whereas in Cantonese, as in other Sino-Tibetan languages, an adjective is placed before the noun it describes.

so what do you all think? and please, let's not have those "i think they look alike, so they must be related" discussions. let's have some better evidence than that, something from history, genetics, or languistics, etc.

[LaiSteve66]

I've never had much trouble telling a Cantonese from Vietnamese.

[lethal]

I've been mistaken for Cantonese and sometimes when I hear Cantonese, I briefly think it is Vietnamese until I realize I can't understand any of it. They sound facially similar, even though they aren't related.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Most linguistic research on Cantonese points to the possibility of a Tai substrate; dunno of any research suggesting Vietnamese instead as the substrate language. Of course, linguistic relatedness doesn't mean genetic relatedness ...

http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/publications/dissertations/detail.php?item_number=LEE-1993
Lee, Gina (1993). Comparative, Diachronic and Experimental Perspectives on the Interaction between Tone and Vowel in Standard Cantonese (http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/publications/dissertations/pdf/Lee1993.pdf)

[SunWuKong]

Most linguistic research on Cantonese points to the possibility of a Tai substrate; dunno of any research suggesting Vietnamese instead as the substrate language. Of course, linguistic relatedness doesn't mean genetic relatedness ...

http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/publications/dissertations/detail.php?item_number=LEE-1993
Lee, Gina (1993). Comparative, Diachronic and Experimental Perspectives on the Interaction between Tone and Vowel in Standard Cantonese (http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/publications/dissertations/pdf/Lee1993.pdf)

the paper does not talk much about the Vietnamese language, but in the beginning it does mention that based on what we know today, Vietnamese acquired phonetic tones rather than inheriting it from the Austro-Asian language family.

and it also talks about the possibility that Cantonese (or the Yue family) acquired from the Tai family those tones that are not inherited from Middle Chinese. i wonder if Cantonese and Vietnamese might have influenced each other in terms of tone acquisition, given the possible interaction between the people in the two regions.

i'm not a linguist, but i did some quick google searching. although people have attested to mistaking Vietnamese and Cantonese with each other, there doesn't seem to be too much tonal similarities between the two languages from a lingustics point of view (as opposed to from a casual listener's point of view), or not really enough to make a definitive connection between the two. at least this is the impression i got. correct me if i'm wrong.

[kyopojin]

The ONLY link between Cantonese and Vietnamese peoples is " Zhuang ",Au-Yue ( Au-Lac ) and Luo-Yue ( Luo-Lac ) are 2 branches of Zhuang and they were also ancient ancestors of indigenous Vietnamese of northern Vietnam then conquered by Qin Dynasty.We MUST also respect there are Cantonese families of Han-Chinese-origin whose ancestors were NOT the " Yue " natives of what's now China's Canton province,family registries recorded their ancestral province north of Yangtze River.

I've read some unacademic internet sources indicated evidence of " Zhuang " words injected into Cantonese dialect,I am incline to believe there is truth to it but it doesn't erase the fact it's a Chinese language of Central Plains region thus belongs in the Sino-Tibetan linguistic family.I have several recent purchased Chinese-language books shed light on some revere traditions of Chinese-Cantonese are actually " Zhuang " origin,wedding ceremony is one example.Yue cultural aspects have been incorporated into mainstream southern Han Chinese heritage based on my extensive readings in 2006.



Here are sample numeric Vietnamese pronunciations,no where close to Cantonese dialect.

one = moek
two = hai
three = ba
four = boon
five = numb ( b silent )
six = south ( th silent )

[kyopojin]

Sinicized " Zhuang " participated in the Taiping Rebellion of 1850's along-side Hakka-Chinese.

Yue was not a monolithic race or a single ethnicity rather a collective term for various indigenous peoples populated China's Guangdong and Guangxi provinces.There is no denial in Chinese history texts and commercially written books,a percentage of indigenous Yao and Zhuang are direct " Yue " descendants assimilated into Cantonese population of Han-Chinese origin through " Sinicization " over a span of times.Those families resisted and stayed proud of own separate ethnicity held onto their colorful culture now in the " Chinese aboriginal minorities " classification.

Yao indigenous people not genetically related to Zhuang,they're closer to Miao or Hmong.

[SunWuKong]

Yue was not a monolithic race or a single ethnicity rather a collective term for various indigenous peoples populated China's Guangdong and Guangxi provinces.

well, i would guess that the classification of Yue has a lot to do with the fact that they all speak dialects in the Cantonese dialect family.

[SunWuKong]

Here are sample numeric Vietnamese pronunciations,no where close to Cantonese dialect.

one = moek
two = hai
three = ba
four = boon
five = numb ( b silent )
six = south ( th silent )

no similarity at all. but i want to point out that word pronounciations, especially when you're talking about nouns and verbs, is really no indication of linguistic similarity at all. a lot of the time that just arises from loanwords, and that's just an indication of cultural influence instead of lingustic similarities, especially if you're talking about countries that were historically a part of the Sinosphere of influence.

[hannle]

don't know anything about the linguistic aspect of the difference between the two groups. the only thing i can say is that i heard people said that "true" i guess indigeneous vietnamese people have only 7 last names. some most of the names we are familiar with are a translation of the chinese names, such as: tran, vuong, ta, vu,... is this true?

[SunWuKong]

don't know anything about the linguistic aspect of the difference between the two groups. the only thing i can say is that i heard people said that "true" i guess indigeneous vietnamese people have only 7 last names. some most of the names we are familiar with are a translation of the chinese names, such as: tran, vuong, ta, vu,... is this true?

not to be nitpicky about wordage here, but those surnames are loanwords, and they have been loanwords throughout much of Vietnamese history that Vietnamese people basically claim those surnames as their own as well, albeit with Chinese roots.

with that said:
Trần == 陳 (Chen) == 진 (Chin)
Vương == 王 (Wang) == 왕 (Wang)
Tạ == 謝 (Xie)
Vu == 于 (Yu)

[kyopojin]

Modern-day Vietnamese population has diversed ethnicities,largest group is the Kinhs.We don't know what percentage of ethnic Vietnamese of Kinh heritage can trace ancestral roots to Zhuang,and belongs to which branch Au-Lac or Luo Lac.

Historically,southern half of modern Vietnam was Champa Kingdom of Khmer or Indo-Malay origin.

[kyopojin]

Chinese history academia never failed to acknowledge indigenous Yue is undeniably part of modern-day southern Han Chinese heritage,and often noted Sinicized Zhuang individuals' contributions to China.

One worthynoting historic figure is this Sinicized Zhuang lady gifted with god-sent singing voice,her family was Lau with middle-first names meaning " 3 sister ".One of my books has a rough sketch picture of her in a traditional Zhuang outfit with hair-piece looks very similiar to formal women's wear of indigenous Vietnamese.

[kyopojin]

a lot of the time that just arises from loanwords, and that's just an indication of cultural influence instead of lingustic similarities, especially if you're talking about countries that were historically a part of the Sinosphere of influence.




Same as Japanese and Korean,there is a considerable amount of " Chinese loanwords " in Vietnamese language.

It's laughable and baseless to claim Cantonese dialect has Tai-Kadai linguistic origin.

A side note,we shouldn't rule out French language influence in modern-day Vietnamese.French speak backwards,chaise longue ( chair long ) not long chair in English.

[SunWuKong]

It's laughable and baseless to claim Cantonese dialect has Tai-Kadai linguistic origin.

why is that?

A side note,we shouldn't rule out French language influence in modern-day Vietnamese.French speak backwards,chaise longue ( chair long ) not long chair in English.

did any linguist try to make this claim, or is that just your opinion? because you know, it could just be a coincidence. i mean, the adjective either comes before or after the noun, most of the time anyway.

[kyopojin]

why is that?




It was my ( sarcastic ) attempt to discredit any " falsehood " floating on the net all things related to Cantonese have no roots in Hua-Xia heritage rather Yue origin.

There are countless accredited Chinese sources written on modern-day Cantonese dialect is one Chinese language has retained many classic Chinese of Central Plains,it sprung from Tang court language.Japanese's On'yomi reading comprises of 4 Chinese pronunciations,one which is Cantonese.

However,I do think it's probable some local " sub-dialects " in Canton and Guangxi provinces might have Tai-Kadai roots or origin since there is definitely a percentage of Sinicized indigenous Yue descedants in the overall 2-Guang populations.

[kyopojin]

did any linguist try to make this claim, or is that just your opinion? because you know, it could just be a coincidence. i mean, the adjective either comes before or after the noun, most of the time anyway.



I have no credible sources to provide at this moment,just my assessment of possible French influences entrenched in Vietnamese culture based on whatever I've known since childhood.

[SunWuKong]

It was my ( sarcastic ) attempt to discredit any " falsehood " floating on the net all things related to Cantonese have no roots in Hua-Xia heritage rather Yue origin.

There are countless accredited Chinese sources written on modern-day Cantonese dialect is one Chinese language has retained many classic Chinese of Central Plains,it sprung from Tang court language.Japanese's On'yomi reading comprises of 4 Chinese pronunciations,one which is Cantonese.

However,I do think it's probable some local " sub-dialects " in Canton and Guangxi provinces might have Tai-Kadai roots or origin since there is definitely a percentage of Sinicized indigenous Yue descedants in the overall 2-Guang populations.

i think linguists basically agree that Cantonese came from Middle Chinese. the only thing that some of them is saying is that some of the tones in modern-day Standard Cantonese came from the Tai language family.

[SunWuKong]

I have no credible sources to provide at this moment,just my assessment of possible French influences entrenched in Vietnamese culture based on whatever I've known since childhood.

ok, well you should know that in French, adjectives don't always come after the noun. sometimes it comes before the noun. for example, petite enfant (little child), or grande pomme (big apple), etc. i don't know if this is also true in Vietnamese though.

[kyopojin]

On French and Vietnamese language matters,I am lacking in-depth knowlege therefore I have nothing to add for now.

There is another equation to what I have already written in previous posts,non-Yue origin Han Chinese men have been fathered a percentage of ethnic Vietnamese population.

[kyopojin]

duplicate

[kyopojin]

the only thing that some of them is saying is that some of the tones in modern-day Standard Cantonese came from the Tai language family.




I've just re-read one chapter dedicates to Cantonese and outside influences in one Chinese-language book titled " Wu-Yup culture ",it has no mentioning of indigenous Yue or Zhuang linguistic impact on the dialect.I don't doubt adoptation of some local words have Tai-origin,but no overall significance.