asians more racist than white people

[pikotic]

This rant will probably piss some people off, so be warned. I'm sorry if I create any negative feelings:redface:

I believe asians are more racist than any other races. Now, I'm basing this opinion on the asians in my school, in which half the population is asian. The asians in the "asian group" complain about other people being "racist" to them, but in reality, they are the racist ones. They don't even try to be subtle, they just shout out racist jokes at the top of their lungs. They also don't even accept Indians as Asian, nor any other race other than the south east asian race. For example, I have an Indian friend who looks more Filipino rather than Indian. The Asian group believed that she was Filipino, and started actually talking to her, and inviting her to their conversations and outings (a very rare occurance, because they usually never talk to anyone who is not southeast asian). Once they found out that she was Indian, they just dropped her, and started ignoring her.

The white people in my school aren't even close to being as racist as the asians. I know this, because the group in which I hang out with (in which there are quite alot of people of different culture) has many white people in it, from which I have never heard a single racist comment before. In fact, if they ever do speak of other races, it is to compliment something.

Aghh, it is just SO annoying...

Okay, there, my rant is done...

[LaiSteve66]

ooooooh, I smell the insider fallacy here.

Furthermore, the White people at your school are not representative of all White people and the Asian people at your school are not representative of all Asian people. A more accurate topic title would be:

"asians more racist than white people at my school"

[doe-sun]

Lai hit it on the head.

Asians will never be as racist as whites. When have Asians done slavery, Exclusion Acts, or Asian-supremicist groups?

And if it's kids on the schoolyard relaying racist jokes - that's just ignorance. When they get to college they will learn that that behavior is not socially acceptable.

Lastly, pik, I would like to see you take a stand. It would be great if you could lead by example. Don't be harsh or confrontational about it. The next time there's a racial joke at someones expense, just say, 'man that ain't cool. Let's ease up on the racist jokes, it's making us Asians look bad.'

[nameless]

Furthermore, the White people at your school are not representative of all White people and the Asian people at your school are not representative of all Asian people. A more accurate topic title would be:

"asians more racist than white people at my school"

Yep.

Also, pikotic you're viewing coming from an American perspective on race where Asian = East Asian, SE Asian, and South Asian. But there really is no Pan-Asian identity - there's our ethnic/cultural group and everyone else. The Asian group representing all Asians is about as accurate as The Jocks representing everyone who plays sports.

That being said, the kids at your school are being punks.

[BeTheReds]

Lai hit it on the head.

Asians will never be as racist as whites. When have Asians done slavery, Exclusion Acts, or Asian-supremicist groups?

In the context of the United States, only the third has been done. In the context of the world, yes, Asians are also guilty of all three.

I don't think anyone can really say a certain race is more racist than a certain other race. Every race has its racists.

[Banana]

Maybe he meant, "When have Asians projected slavery, Exclusion Acts, or supremacist groups against whites?"

[BigLew]

You haven't met my dad, LOL. Generalizations based on happenings in ones own little corner of the world is the trend though.

[SunWuKong]

well, since we're generalising, i'd like to point out - white people are dumb. all the white people i know are dumb, so it must be true.

[BeTheReds]

Maybe he meant, "When have Asians projected slavery, Exclusion Acts, or supremacist groups against whites?"

Again, in the context of the US, only the third.

[doe-sun]

When have Asians done slavery, Exclusion Acts, or Asian-supremicist groups?

I meant, when have Asians done those things on the basis of skin color alone. And not just against whites, I meant against anyone whos non-Asian.

[returntosender]

Asking questions like that will get you shot in the foot.

[grimfan]

The white people of today shouldn't be held too responsible for their forefathers' racist beliefs. They shouldn't get off scot-free, because acts of racism still linger today, but it's not as if they have any power or control over what happened centuries ago; treating as if they were part of the KKK will only alienate race relations.

And Asians, especially older immigrants, can be very racist, but they don't have the power to do anything about it.

[eos]

^and you're the designated trigger man, yes? brilliant.

[sageb1]

I like all colors of women.

Why r they so picky tho? i mean we both want the same thing.

[Tao]

^ you should show them your dance moves

[pikotic]

Originally posted by grimfan

The white people of today shouldn't be held too responsible for their forefathers' racist beliefs. They shouldn't get off scot-free, because acts of racism still linger today, but it's not as if they have any power or control over what happened centuries ago; treating as if they were part of the KKK will only alienate race relations.

And Asians, especially older immigrants, can be very racist, but they don't have the power to do anything about it.


I completely agree with that statement. White people of the present aren't responsible for the misdeeds of their ancestors. If they were, why don't we just hold the Japanese of today responsible for all the killings they have done in the past?:confused:

But, yeah, you guys are right, I was generalizing about all Asians... Sorry about that...:redface:

But you should see this Asian group at my school. They are so annoyingly loud about their racial prejudices... Argh...

[Banana]

When I went to college, there was a group of whites that would always make racist remarks about Latinos.

Feel better now?

[americanbeauty]

Just because someone isn't screaming insults from the mountain top doesn't mean they are any less racist. There are people, including whites, who will smile in your face but will say the most horrible things behind closed doors.

Although I do believe asians have a serious problem with racism, more on account of them worshipping eurocentric features and holding them to hire standards then their own culture. But I don't believe by them being outspoken about their racial discrimination makes them any more racist then someone who is silent about it.

[capacitor276]

Just because someone isn't screaming insults from the mountain top doesn't mean they are any less racist. There are people, including whites, who will smile in your face but will say the most horrible things behind closed doors.

Although I do believe asians have a serious problem with racism, more on account of them worshipping eurocentric features and holding them to hire standards then their own culture. But I don't believe by them being outspoken about their racial discrimination makes them any more racist then someone who is silent about it.

Sometimes one wonders whether it might be BETTER for someone to be outspoken about their racism than to keep their prejudices quiet. Makes those people easier to spot, and ultimately, easier to ignore. It seems the norm today in America to have people being what I call "politically correct racists". These are the sort of people who won't outwardly claim one group is better than another, but whose actions can really reveal a lot about their deeply clung to prejudices.

It reminds me of a supposedly liberal, open-minded friend I once had who waxed profusely about how much she was against stereotyping races, only to overhear her complaining one day about the "Asian invasion" that she thought was taking over her neighbourhood. It was quite a shocker to hear someone who seemed so anti-Racist start to say the most offensive things about her Korean neighbours, but it really taught me a lot about superficial racial harmony.

[americanbeauty]

Sometimes one wonders whether it might be BETTER for someone to be outspoken about their racism than to keep their prejudices quiet. Makes those people easier to spot, and ultimately, easier to ignore. It seems the norm today in America to have people being what I call "politically correct racists". These are the sort of people who won't outwardly claim one group is better than another, but whose actions can really reveal a lot about their deeply clung to prejudices.

It reminds me of a supposedly liberal, open-minded friend I once had who waxed profusely about how much she was against stereotyping races, only to overhear her complaining one day about the "Asian invasion" that she thought was taking over her neighbourhood. It was quite a shocker to hear someone who seemed so anti-Racist start to say the most offensive things about her Korean neighbours, but it really taught me a lot about superficial racial harmony.



If Everyone were outspoken about racism, I doubt hardly anyone would be silent. I'm not sure what the scientific studies are on racism, but they do talk about how it's human nature to divide due to social, economic, political, and televised structure. Some people just so happen to sulk in the hate they have for another race, which in turn they are labeled as racist. Others are not as easily bothered but will encounter some sort of racial emotion throughout their lifetime.
We are all racist in some way, we have all made judgements about someone where their skin or their culture played a factor, even if it wasn't a big one.

[BigLew]

We are all racist in some way, we have all made judgements about someone where their skin or their culture played a factor, even if it wasn't a big one.

Just cause you are racist don't try to make yourself feel better or justify it by trying to convince yourself that everyone else is too. Just change or accept it.

[capacitor276]

If Everyone were outspoken about racism, I doubt hardly anyone would be silent. I'm not sure what the scientific studies are on racism, but they do talk about how it's human nature to divide due to social, economic, political, and televised structure. Some people just so happen to sulk in the hate they have for another race, which in turn they are labeled as racist. Others are not as easily bothered but will encounter some sort of racial emotion throughout their lifetime.
We are all racist in some way, we have all made judgements about someone where their skin or their culture played a factor, even if it wasn't a big one.

I don't agree with the argument that because something is in our nature, we should just accept it.

Perhaps it's in human nature to steal stuffthat we can't afford. Should we throw out all laws pertaining to theft and just allow it to run rampant because people, by nature, might want shiny new things? Likewise, with racism, just because people are socially conditioned to prefer their group over another does not mean we should give up hope that we can challenge and ultimately change prejudice.

Whatever racism might be inherent in human nature, we should believe strongly enough in the power of free will to make a damn good effort to erase as much of that hate as we can. Humans are animals, but most humans possess the decision making skills necessary to make us anything but slaves to our natures.

[americanbeauty]

I don't agree with the argument that because something is in our nature, we should just accept it.

Perhaps it's in human nature to steal stuffthat we can't afford. Should we throw out all laws pertaining to theft and just allow it to run rampant because people, by nature, might want shiny new things? Likewise, with racism, just because people are socially conditioned to prefer their group over another does not mean we should give up hope that we can challenge and ultimately change prejudice.

Whatever racism might be inherent in human nature, we should believe strongly enough in the power of free will to make a damn good effort to erase as much of that hate as we can. Humans are animals, but most humans possess the decision making skills necessary to make us anything but slaves to our natures.

I'm not sure you quite understood what I was saying. The argument wasn't about what we can and can not control. The argument was about what is as much human nature as drinking water. Racism is instilled into everyone at some point in their lives, we learn and therefore will encounter it within ourselves, even if it unconciously.

I said if everyone were to speak their minds, and by this I mean let other know their views on what they believe and don't believe, no one would be silent. And that is in fact true. It's inevitable that someone will at some time make a judgement about someone based on what they look like, whether it is good or bad, outspoken or not.

I believe that we are headed in a direction where skin color is less of a problem for relationships, careers, social, etc. And I pray that one day it will be completely eliminated. But it's a far fetch to say it ever will. Because as long as we know what differences are and can distinguish the differences in other people, in natural for people to incorporate those differences throughout their life.

I disagree on your original example though. Is it really natural to steal stuff? Or is it natural to want but to consider the consequences? In most cases we are taught to earn what we want rather then to take what we want to be ours. Just like in most cases we are taught to love all. But what do people consider more acceptable? If you steal, odds are if you get caught, you go to jail. If you have racism, there generally is no consequence for that.

[monkeygone2]

Whatever racism might be inherent in human nature

If you put a Caucasian baby, Asian baby & Latino baby in the same sand box, they will play together.
There's also a difference between racism & prejudice. These are just basics, people.

[SunWuKong]

this whole idea that "it's just natural" is moot. it's "natural" for human beings to do a lot of things. it's "natural" for us to piss wherever we want. we don't do these things because we're civilised.

the context here is the modern world, the 21st century.

[capacitor276]

I believe that we are headed in a direction where skin color is less of a problem for relationships, careers, social, etc. And I pray that one day it will be completely eliminated. But it's a far fetch to say it ever will. Because as long as we know what differences are and can distinguish the differences in other people, in natural for people to incorporate those differences throughout their life.

I can agree that it is unlikely racism will ever be completely eradicated. Vices have been around since the dawn of social culture, and it would be foolish of me to say that in x number of years, it will all be 100% gone. My earlier post was just saying however that if the reason you pointed out that racism is unlikely to disappear is to put a damper on anti-racism efforts, then that would be flawed logic. Looking back, I can see that was not your intent.


I disagree on your original example though. Is it really natural to steal stuff? Or is it natural to want but to consider the consequences? In most cases we are taught to earn what we want rather then to take what we want to be ours. Just like in most cases we are taught to love all. But what do people consider more acceptable? If you steal, odds are if you get caught, you go to jail. If you have racism, there generally is no consequence for that.

When I'm writing about it being "natural" to want to steal things, I'm talking about a context where there are no consequences. Obviously, one can argue that such a situation does not exist. Anyway, that example was more of a roughly thought out analogy than anything, so you can just ignore it and save the trouble of arguing science.

[BigLew]

Sure it's natural to steal stuff animals do it all the time. It's called survival. It's also natural to put clothes on, eat processed food that others made and make up currency so we can pay for a should be abundant rescourse such as water. Oh and African pygmies are the most racist people in the world.

[siamesedream]

Actually, this very topic is how I discovered this place. I was google-searching to see if anyone else shared the same feelings that, in their experience, Asian people are the most deeply racist people they've known. American society doesn't really have any problem cracking jokes about Asians or making stereotypes about them because they're still viewed as a very "foreign" people. It's easy to get away with making jokes about Asians because the American-Asian community has very much seemed to have made quite an effort to separate itself from other communities. Many Asians stick with their own kind and rarely do they venture outside into a non-Asian social circle.

There seems to be a very large superiority complex with Asian people. Naturally, you can find individuals of any group that are racist or prejudiced, and you can find many Asians that are infinitely less prejudiced than members of another race. The genetic factor is not the determinant one --and it never is-- as the causal agent is a matter of culture. Speaking from my own experiences, though, Asians are far more racist than any other ethnic group I've known, and this includes experience with members of my own family. It is less of a joking manner of being racist, and more of a completely heartfelt hatred or extreme dislike of other races -- especially for whites and blacks.

[AngryABCGirl]

The main reason why a lot of Asians think Asians are MORE racist than other groups is because they haven't truly interacted or aren't as in group as they think with other ethnic groups, especially Whites. Asians, actually many minority books in general, do tend to be louder about their racist feelings because most White people have learned to be afraid of being labeled politically incorrect. In the private sphere though, it's another story. They're not gonna dish out their racial baggage in front of you. Some Latinos and Blacks will tend to more open because you're another person of color in the context of the US, and their sentiments seem like those all of you mention about Asians in these posts.

[siamesedream]

The main reason why a lot of Asians think Asians are MORE racist than other groups is because they haven't truly interacted or aren't as in group as they think with other ethnic groups, especially Whites.


Wrong. I'm half-white and half-Asian, so I've always managed to be in both ethnic communities. There really isn't any "white" community, as opposed to Asian communities that make an effort to be Asian-exclusive. I've confirmed this observation with many Asian relatives of mine, and could give countless examples of times that I've witnessed this but, in all honesty, it would be irrelevant as we're talking about a general picture here.

[pikachupacabra]

It's true, Asians are very upfront about their racism.


But to me, that's better than hiding behind a shield of political correctness and being invisbly racist, which is true for much of this country.


You know what they say, "a true friend stabs you in the front".

[SunWuKong]

Many Asians stick with their own kind and rarely do they venture outside into a non-Asian social circle.

i could basically say the same thing about white people, based on my own observations. but i don't fault them, and i especially don't fault Asian people for this, because they're a minority in the country that's trying to hang on to their ethnic culture instead of being washed over by a sea of whiteness.

and let's put it into the context of American society here. how many Asian people have the power to exclude others from jobs, political influence, media portrayals, etc etc? how many Asian CEOs are there in the Fortune 500? how many Asian Senators and Congressmen are there? how many Asian media moguls are there? these people i'm mentioning are disproportionally white, and racial minorities are underrepresented in executive positions, in politics, and in the media. just put two and two together here...

the point is, just because you don't want to hang out with a bunch of white folks, a racist that does not make you. and i'm sure a lot of Asian people have racist attitudes. but how many of them are in a position to make a negative impact on other people's livelihoods? keep that in mind if you're going to chart out a "who is more racist" scale, as pointless as that is.

[siamesedream]

i could basically say the same thing about white people, based on my own observations. but i don't fault them, and i especially don't fault Asian people for this, because they're a minority in the country that's trying to hang on to their ethnic culture instead of being washed over by a sea of whiteness.

and let's put it into the context of American society here. how many Asian people have the power to exclude others from jobs, political influence, media portrayals, etc etc? how many Asian CEOs are there in the Fortune 500? how many Asian Senators and Congressmen are there? how many Asian media moguls are there? these people i'm mentioning are disproportionally white, and racial minorities are underrepresented in executive positions, in politics, and in the media. just put two and two together here...

the point is, just because you don't want to hang out with a bunch of white folks, a racist that does not make you. and i'm sure a lot of Asian people have racist attitudes. but how many of them are in a position to make a negative impact on other people's livelihoods? keep that in mind if you're going to chart out a "who is more racist" scale, as pointless as that is.

I have not witnessed anywhere near the amount of racial discrimination from white people as I have from Asian people. To simply brush it off with the excuse "They're trying to hang on to their culture" is a rediculous one. Is discrimination merely a part of Asian culture? Is that what we're getting at, here?

Also, to let you know, Asians have the absolute highest proportion of college graduates to any other ethnic group in the USA. Blacks are extremely prevalent and prominent in our mainstream culture, and even hispanics infinitely moreso than Asians. I wouldn't sit around and blame everyone else for the lack of Asians in our media.

Also, it really just serves as a distraction to sit around and talk about an issue as irrelevant as whether or not Asians are generally in political positions in which they can make their prejudices have a large impact on society. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why racial prejudice is an immoral thinig.

[SunWuKong]

hahhah, i'll let you guys handle this one.

[siamesedream]

hahhah, i'll let you guys handle this one.

Nice response.

[siamesedream]

I also need make mention that there is nothing wrong with simply celebrating your culture. That's a wonderful thing. However, purposely separating yourself from other people is not such a good thing. One of the problems I've seen among Asians who celebrate their culture and run in many Asian crowds is that, many times, their friends or family will look down on them if they date a member of a different ethnicity (this is a HUGE one) or socialize with people of different skin color. I don't understand the mentality behind purposely separating yourself from other people based merely on race and hating them or disliking them solely for the same reason. I find it abhorring.

[BeTheReds]

So Asians have given you a hard time cuz you are a hapa... is this what this is about?

[siamesedream]

So Asians have given you a hard time cuz you are a hapa... is this what this is about?

If your intention was to insult me, then it was a horrible attempt.

If it was a serious question, then, no, I've never actually experienced discrimination directed towards me by Asians because I'm only half-Asian. For the most part, and, at least, directly to my face, I'm treated by Asians no differently than they treat other Asians, and friends of other races generally look at me as being, simply enough, an Asian.

[Tao]

this thread in general is stupid because no one person's view is right. it's all a matter of how racist the individuals you associate with are.

[draconisz]

I also need make mention that there is nothing wrong with simply celebrating your culture. That's a wonderful thing. However, purposely separating yourself from other people is not such a good thing. One of the problems I've seen among Asians who celebrate their culture and run in many Asian crowds is that, many times, their friends or family will look down on them if they date a member of a different ethnicity (this is a HUGE one) or socialize with people of different skin color. I don't understand the mentality behind purposely separating yourself from other people based merely on race and hating them or disliking them solely for the same reason. I find it abhorring.

Does anyone mind if I interject here?

SD, you do know that most of the assessments of Asians from the mainstream, come to the exact opposite conclusion. There aren't many folks who criticize Asians for not trying to assimilate.

[siamesedream]

Does anyone mind if I interject here?

SD, you do know that most of the assessments of Asians from the mainstream, come to the exact opposite conclusion. There aren't many folks who criticize Asians for not trying to assimilate.

I don't know about the validity of that statement. There are the groups of Asians with college degrees that go off in the world who are then criticized by other Asians for being "whitewashed", and are then labeled "Twinkies". Read Eric Liu's "The Accidental Asian: Notes of a Native Speaker" to get a sense of what I'm talking about. The sense of "betrayal" that these types of Asians are made to feel they are guilty of is no secret, as it is a huge theme among Asian-American literature and writings. As stated earlier, there is the large Asian community that shuns Asians who conform to an American way, have a social circle that consists of lots of non-Asian people, or date people who are non-Asian.

I have a very hard time simply saying that any particular number of members of the Asian community are like this, as there is no concrete evidence for such a statement, but, as stated earlier, I merely speak from my own experience as well as the experience of many I've spoken to. In example, my best friend, who is 100% Chinese, moved to a very Asian area back while we were still in high school. All the way from the the beginnings of his arrival to the time we graduated, he would write to me telling me about how he was always experiencing discrimination from the other Asians there because he made white and black friends at the school from the very beginning, so the majority-Asian group would not accept him because he was a "twinkie" who didn't "keep it Asian".

Now, as already stated, this is merely a particular and individual example, and, regardless of how many isolated examples one could give, they are all irrelevant if the goal is an attempt to prove a general statement. Obviously, this does not apply to every single Asian on the planet, as race has no direct correlation to how a people will behave (it's a matter of culture). I'm hoping we can keep the discussion intelligent enough to not have to go back to obvious basics that both parties already have established. What I'm merely speaking of is an observation that can observed as being a pattern, and, if one keeps their judgement unclouded by bias or a refusal to admit certain things, whether or not a person agrees with me is dependent entirely on their own experiences.

[BeTheReds]

If your intention was to insult me, then it was a horrible attempt.

If it was a serious question, then, no, I've never actually experienced discrimination directed towards me by Asians because I'm only half-Asian. For the most part, and, at least, directly to my face, I'm treated by Asians no differently than they treat other Asians, and friends of other races generally look at me as being, simply enough, an Asian.


I wasn't trying to insult you, I just thought perhaps you accusation upon Asians was due to some reaction because of feelings of non-inclusion from Asians because you are a hapa. It certainly makes logical sense anyway. I guess that wasn't the case though.

I'd have to still disagree with you in the topic of the thread though, because like you said, if White people see you as an Asian, they'll be more cautious around you and not expose their bigotry. Asians who see you as Asian feel more comfortable exposing their own to you.

That's my theory anyway...

[capacitor276]

Asian culture in general is more collectivist than white American or even European culture. Perhaps this collectivism could contribute to the perception (deserved or not) that Asians are more racist than other groups?

[draconisz]

I don't know about the validity of that statement. There are the groups of Asians with college degrees that go off in the world who are then criticized by other Asians for being "whitewashed", and are then labeled "Twinkies". Read Eric Liu's "The Accidental Asian: Notes of a Native Speaker" to get a sense of what I'm talking about. The sense of "betrayal" that these types of Asians are made to feel they are guilty of is no secret, as it is a huge theme among Asian-American literature and writings. As stated earlier, there is the large Asian community that shuns Asians who conform to an American way, have a social circle that consists of lots of non-Asian people, or date people who are non-Asian.

I have a very hard time simply saying that any particular number of members of the Asian community are like this, as there is no concrete evidence for such a statement, but, as stated earlier, I merely speak from my own experience as well as the experience of many I've spoken to. In example, my best friend, who is 100% Chinese, moved to a very Asian area back while we were still in high school. All the way from the the beginnings of his arrival to the time we graduated, he would write to me telling me about how he was always experiencing discrimination from the other Asians there because he made white and black friends at the school from the very beginning, so the majority-Asian group would not accept him because he was a "twinkie" who didn't "keep it Asian".

Now, as already stated, this is merely a particular and individual example, and, regardless of how many isolated examples one could give, they are all irrelevant if the goal is an attempt to prove a general statement. Obviously, this does not apply to every single Asian on the planet, as race has no direct correlation to how a people will behave (it's a matter of culture). I'm hoping we can keep the discussion intelligent enough to not have to go back to obvious basics that both parties already have established. What I'm merely speaking of is an observation that can observed as being a pattern, and, if one keeps their judgement unclouded by bias or a refusal to admit certain things, whether or not a person agrees with me is dependent entirely on their own experiences.

Oh, you are talking about something different. You see, in an earlier post you said something about Asians "seperating" themselves. I am not Asian. I am outsider. Out here in the non-Asian cultural experience, folks don't say that about Asians generally. In fact, I can show you many an article at www.townhall.com saying the exact opposite. Dr. Thomas Sowell penned an article praising Asians for their efforts at assimilating into the fabric of America much better than any other non-"White" group.

Note: I am not in a position to either verify or disqualify his claims. I am merely telling you what one "respected" opinion has said.

Mayhap as an Asian or Asian-American you have noted something different. But out here, folks generally think that Asians have done a lot to fit in. Maybe there is a "disconnect" with the mainstream if you have met Asians or Asian-Americans who do not wish to assimilate. Either way, I think it's entirely possible to come to different conclusions.

And I might add, not wanting to assimilate into a larger culture isn't generally considered to be "racist" conduct.

[nameless]

I have not witnessed anywhere near the amount of racial discrimination from white people as I have from Asian people. To simply brush it off with the excuse "They're trying to hang on to their culture" is a rediculous one. Is discrimination merely a part of Asian culture? Is that what we're getting at, here?

Discrimination is a part of all human culture and stems from the creation and maintaining of a sense of identity. You see Asians discriminating non-Asians more than the reverse because Asians (in America) are in a relatively greater position for their identity to be marginalized by the greater society. Then again, racial statistics aren't necessary - as long as the person/group feels threatened, there will be discrimination (i.e. KKK). I'm not trying to excuse or justify the behavior, just explaining it.

Also, to let you know, Asians have the absolute highest proportion of college graduates to any other ethnic group in the USA. Blacks are extremely prevalent and prominent in our mainstream culture, and even hispanics infinitely moreso than Asians. I wouldn't sit around and blame everyone else for the lack of Asians in our media.

How does having a college degree mean you automatically have the power to change whatever you want? The high proportion of college grads says nothing about our ability to control or access the media. Asian college graduates are overrepresented in the science and quantitative degrees and include Asians from abroad. Please explain how that means more Asians in the media, because I can't see it. Is it because doctors make more money? I don't see how that works either, because Asians still make less than Whites and have a smaller community than Blacks and Latinos.

Also, it really just serves as a distraction to sit around and talk about an issue as irrelevant as whether or not Asians are generally in political positions in which they can make their prejudices have a large impact on society. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why racial prejudice is an immoral thinig.

Maybe a side topic, but it's not completely irrelevant. If the question is whether or not Asians are more racist than whites, then we need to talk about the why and how. I just mentioned the 'why' part and SunWuKong mentioned the 'how.' If you want to talk about how much more immoral Asians are because of their prejudice, then let's look at the 'how.' Is talking a lot of shit and being in cliques more or less immoral than talking less shit, but also committing more race based crimes, perpetuating stereotypes in the media, and imposing glass ceilings? No need to answer that, I'm just making the point that it's all related.

[snailpoo]

I have a very hard time simply saying that any particular number of members of the Asian community are like this, as there is no concrete evidence for such a statement, but, as stated earlier, I merely speak from my own experience as well as the experience of many I've spoken to.

Interesting.

IF you merely speak from your own experience and the experiences of many you've spoken to, how are you able to make statements like:

There really isn't any "white" community, as opposed to Asian communities that make an effort to be Asian-exclusive. I've confirmed this observation with many Asian relatives of mine, and could give countless examples of times that I've witnessed this but, in all honesty, it would be irrelevant as we're talking about a general picture here.

IF you are merely speaking from your own experience and the experiences of many you've spoken to, how is it relevant to the general picture? How are your anectodes indicitive of anything but your particular experiences?

When challenged, you defend your assertion by using your personal experiences, which, of course, no one can deny, yet, your point attempts to broaden your assertion beyond what your personal experiences can prove. Which is it?



Now here's the next fun step: How many times have stereotypes been borne and reinforced by people who use "personal experiences" as justification? :wink:




Actually, this very topic is how I discovered this place. I was google-searching to see if anyone else shared the same feelings that, in their experience, Asian people are the most deeply racist people they've known. American society doesn't really have any problem cracking jokes about Asians or making stereotypes about them because they're still viewed as a very "foreign" people. It's easy to get away with making jokes about Asians because the American-Asian community has very much seemed to have made quite an effort to separate itself from other communities. Many Asians stick with their own kind and rarely do they venture outside into a non-Asian social circle.

As opposed to the Irish, Russian, Jewish, German, Italian, Mexican, Cuban, <insert any immigrant wave here> enclaves?

Pointing out that <insert random immigrant wave here> sticks together when they first arrive in America doesn't make that immigrant wave any more or less racist. It's a trait shared by nearly every group of immigrants here.

Did you know that here, today, you can still find areas of New York City where Italian, or Russian, or Spanish, or Pourtugese is the primary langauge?


Editted to add:

Also, it really just serves as a distraction to sit around and talk about an issue as irrelevant as whether or not Asians are generally in political positions in which they can make their prejudices have a large impact on society. That's completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons why racial prejudice is an immoral thinig.

So is all immorality equal and the degree of societal and individual harm is irrelevant?

Is a racist comment of the same moral repugnance as a lynching? Does the racist ostracization of your friend rise to the same degree of evil as ...the Chinese Exclusion Act?

Interesting, isn't it? When you say political positions are irrelevant, then you're basically asserting that the racist tendencies that may affect a handful of individuals is equally repugnant as those that may affect millions.

[siamesedream]

Discrimination is a part of all human culture and stems from the creation and maintaining of a sense of identity. You see Asians discriminating non-Asians more than the reverse because Asians (in America) are in a relatively greater position for their identity to be marginalized by the greater society. Then again, racial statistics aren't necessary - as long as the person/group feels threatened, there will a be discrimination (i.e. KKK). I'm not trying to excuse or justify the behavior, just explaining it.

I would say racism stems from much more than merely that. To try to pinpoint human behavior down to a single reason or causal agent is really nothing more than foolishness. Racism can be due to a number of factors, and pride, I believe, is one of the biggest causes behind it, though there are many contributing factors.

How does having a college degree mean you automatically have the power to change whatever you want? The high proportion of college grads says nothing about our ability to control or access the media. Asian college graduates are overrepresented in the science and quantitative degrees and include Asians from abroad. Please explain how that means more Asians in the media, because I can't see it. Is it because doctors make more money? I don't see how that works either, because Asians still make less than Whites and have a smaller community than Blacks and Latinos.

The college degree has nothing to do with having the power, and you merely misunderstood the intention behind my using that example. I used it as a means of refuting the argument that the lack of Asians in the media or in politics is a result of discrimination. I think it has much more to do with other reasons, such as Asian people generally making an effort to succeed in a different field, such as engineering. In the places Asians have made an effort to succeed in within our society, they have been successful.

Maybe a side topic, but it's not completely irrelevant. If the question is whether or not Asians are more racist than whites, then we need to talk about the why and how. I just mentioned the 'why' part and SunWuKong mentioned the 'how.' If you want to talk about how much more immoral Asians are because of their prejudice, then let's look at the 'how.' Is talking a lot of shit and being in cliques more or less immoral than talking less shit, but also committing more race based crimes, perpetuating stereotypes in the media, and imposing glass ceilings? No need to answer that, I'm just making the point that it's all related.

Well, you initially stated that your belief for the reason as to why Asians are more racist than whites was not a justification for the behavior, but you're treating it as though it is. You're using it in a manner as though it need be understood by one who observes it so that one can see it's not as grave as it may initially appear, but, in all honesty, racism is racism. Also, of course, racism is no less immoral if it's behind closed doors than it is if it's openly celebrated. It doesn't matter what color your skin, if you're racist, you're equally as bad any other racist. Skin color is not what separates us any further than we allow it to. Statistically speaking, whites are far from the biggest group of racism-based crimes. That title belongs to the african-american community. Statistics mean nothing, though, when trying to answer your question, as racism is racism, and one is no less guilty of immorality for being racist based on something such as skin color.

[snailpoo]

Skin color is not what separates us any further than we allow it to. Statistically speaking, whites are far from the biggest group of racism-based crimes. That title belongs to the african-american community. Statistics mean nothing, though, when trying to answer your question, as racism is racism, and one is no less guilty of immorality for being racist based on something such as skin color.

Odd huh? You start off in this thread by asserting that, in your experience, Asians are more racist than any other group, yet when pressed, you give a more blanket platitude.

Incidentally, when you base arguments off of your personal experiences, you lack facts, a weakness in your argument that everyone has picked up on.

Yet, when you assert statistics...

By Race
An analysis of available race data for the 6,804 known hate crime offenders revealed that:

60.5 percent were white.
19.9 percent were black.
12.3 percent were unknown.
5.2 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (multiple races, group).
1.1 percent of known offenders were American Indian/Alaskan Native.
0.9 percent were Asian/Pacific Islander.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/offenders.htm


I've picked up the torch from SunWuKong. Someone else can finish up here.

Night.

[tripostrophe]

Just want to interject here by pointing out to siamesedream that you're making a mistake by saying that Asian-Americans have a separatist tendency -- in addition to the other ethnic groups with similar tendencies pointed out, there's a sociological(?) term for this...outgroup fallacy or something?

Basically what it says is that white people are just as guilty of separatist practices (e.g. Jim Crowe Laws, segregation, reservations, apartheid, etc.), but it's just not noticed as much when it comes to them because they are the majority in America, and thus don't have to deal very often with many people who are ethnically/culturally different from them (less probability of racist incidents with less availability of situations for such conflict).

Now, beyond a few of the more separatist racists I've known (very few), there doesn't seem to me to be a greater concentration of separatists in any group than another. In fact, in my experience it's been white people who are most guilty of this (history; stormfront; school cliques), but that's only as a counterpoint to your Asians-only view.

[BeTheReds]

Yet, when you assert statistics...


I don't agree with siamese dream, but those statistics don't really prove anything. Whites make up most of the US population, so naturally more hate crimes will be committed by white people.

Asians make up the smallest group.

You really have to compare the percentage of hate crimes against the population percentage.

Whites make up about 70% of our population, yet committed only 60% of the hate crimes.

Blacks make up about 12% but committed nearly 20%. This would mean that by these statistics, Blacks are nearly twice as likely to commit hate crimes than Whites are.

Furthermore, you can hate and be racist without commiting a crime, so I don't see how this is a good measure of which race is more racist...

[siamesedream]

Interesting.

IF you merely speak from your own experience and the experiences of many you've spoken to, how are you able to make statements like:



IF you are merely speaking from your own experience and the experiences of many you've spoken to, how is it relevant to the general picture? How are your anectodes indicitive of anything but your particular experiences?

When challenged, you defend your assertion by using your personal experiences, which, of course, no one can deny, yet, your point attempts to broaden your assertion beyond what your personal experiences can prove. Which is it?


Now here's the next fun step: How many times have stereotypes been borne and reinforced by people who use "personal experiences" as justification? :wink:

Oh, brother :rolleyes: .

You appear to be trigger-happy be cause you think you've found something that you can use against me, when, in all reality, it won't work.

I can't believe you're actually going to force me to go in-depth in explaining myself even moreso than I already have, but I suppose you leave me with little choice.

As I've already stated, yes, my theories are based entirely on personal experience. What I have observed I have observed to be a pattern, and, thus, I have drawn my conclusions as such. All of human knowledge and truth is determined this way. You act as though determining a theory based on "personal experience" is something that is 'wrong', when all truth is found based on personal experiences. Surely you're capable of actually realizing this. Were I confident that my theory was an absolute, I wouldn't be here discussing the issue, as I would have no need to be doing so.



As opposed to the Irish, Russian, Jewish, German, Italian, Mexican, Cuban, <insert any immigrant wave here> enclaves?

Pointing out that <insert random immigrant wave here> sticks together when they first arrive in America doesn't make that immigrant wave any more or less racist. It's a trait shared by nearly every group of immigrants here.

Did you know that here, today, you can still find areas of New York City where Italian, or Russian, or Spanish, or Pourtugese is the primary langauge?

Don't misunderstand what I was saying. I condemn no person or group of people for sticking together based on race. Sticking together is not inherently an act of racism, though the reasons behind doing so can, very much, be so. It's the exlusivity that I have a problem with, as people should not be allowing race and race alone to be a barrier between them.

I don't even have a problem with someone saying "I usually don't get along with Asians" or "White people are usually too focused on MTV for me to find them interesting" or "I usually can't stand the 'hip-hop' aura of black people". It's the sentiment that births dislike or hatred for an individual based solely on race, and, regardless of how that individual actually behaves, that sentiment still causes negative feelings toward that person or a belief that the person is inferior.


Editted to add:



So is all immorality equal and the degree of societal and individual harm is irrelevant?

Is a racist comment of the same moral repugnance as a lynching? Does the racist ostracization of your friend rise to the same degree of evil as ...the Chinese Exclusion Act?

Interesting, isn't it? When you say political positions are irrelevant, then you're basically asserting that the racist tendencies that may affect a handful of individuals is equally repugnant as those that may affect millions.

Immorality and evil are products of the intrinsic. Picture a man who wishes to kill six million jews, and then picture Hitler. Neither individual is any less evil than the other. Though only one of them was able to carry out their desires, both of them are still equally evil at heart. Merely because one had the ability to act upon his evil does not make him any more evil than he already was.

Evilness, immorality, morality, righteousness -- all are products of the intrinsic. Even you understand this, whether or not you realize it. Imagine, for example, a millionaire who steals a dinner simply because he is disgusted with the working-class and wishes not to contribute to them and, rather, wishes to take from them. Imagine, also, a man who steals a dinner, to feed his starving children. Based on your logic, which supposes that the morality of a man is based on his action, both men are equally immoral. I can say, with confidence, that I think that, despite your previous argument, you possess the capacity to understand the moral differences between the men above based on the intrinsic. Therefore, let logic take its course to show you why your argument is extremely invalid. Intention and products of consciousness determine whether or not an act is immoral, not the act itself. The intention behind a racist comment is not the same as the intention behind a lynching. Easy would it be to find a person who holds racist ideas that is, still, not evil enough to carry forth with a lynching. It is the intrinsic that separates them. Therefore, the idea that Asian racism is lessened in immorality based on the notion that Asians are incapable of carrying out their racist desires is one that is ludicrous.

Odd huh? You start off in this thread by asserting that, in your experience, Asians are more racist than any other group, yet when pressed, you give a more blanket platitude.

Incidentally, when you base arguments off of your personal experiences, you lack facts, a weakness in your argument that everyone has picked up on.

I've explained this to you above in this reply. An argument on this matter will always be based upon personal experiences. You criticizing me for using personal experience to draw a conclusion is extraordinarily sophomoric, especially in light of the fact that I have mentioned countless times that every argument on either side of this issue contains the same weakness, which is that both lack any real statical data to prove their point. The point of this is to have a discussion, and, somehow, you're taking it differently. Possibly you're merely angry about my assertions, and such emotional involvement would explain your complete lack of an ability to reply to the rest of my previous post. Perhaps you'll simply refuse to reply to this post as well so that you may escape admitting flawed logic.


Yet, when you assert statistics...



["You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more."]



I've picked up the torch from SunWuKong. Someone else can finish up here.

Night.

If you honestly believe that data involving "hate crime" statistics is at all valid, then you're gravely mistaken. Data involving "hate crimes" is severely flawed, as it is extraordinarily difficult to convinct a non-white person of a hate crime, and it is extremely easy to convince a white person of a hate crime. Not only that, you're completely misinterpreting the data there in your favor not taking into account the actual percentage of people in our population. By that data itself, blacks are much more likely to commit hate crimes than are whites. If you want real statistics, look at race-on-race crime rates.

["You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more."]

According to the latest US Department of Justice survey of crime victims, more than 6.6 million violent crimes (murder, rape, assault and robbery) are committed in the US each year, of which about 20 per cent, or 1.3 million, are inter-racial crimes.

Most victims of race crime—about 90 per cent—are white, according to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993.

Almost 1 million white Americans were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by black Americans in 1992, compared with about 132,000 blacks who were murdered, robbed, assaulted or raped by whites, according to the same survey.

Blacks thus committed 7.5 times more violent inter-racial crimes than whites even though the black population is only one-seventh the size of the white population. When these figures are adjusted on a per capita basis, they reveal an extraordinary disparity: blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

According to the latest annual report on murder by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, most inter-racial murders involve black assailants and white victims, with blacks murdering whites at 18 times the rate that whites murder blacks.

[siamesedream]

Just want to interject here by pointing out to siamesedream that you're making a mistake by saying that Asian-Americans have a separatist tendency -- in addition to the other ethnic groups with similar tendencies pointed out, there's a sociological(?) term for this...outgroup fallacy or something?

Basically what it says is that white people are just as guilty of separatist practices (e.g. Jim Crowe Laws, segregation, reservations, apartheid, etc.), but it's just not noticed as much when it comes to them because they are the majority in America, and thus don't have to deal very often with many people who are ethnically/culturally different from them (less probability of racist incidents with less availability of situations for such conflict).

Now, beyond a few of the more separatist racists I've known (very few), there doesn't seem to me to be a greater concentration of separatists in any group than another. In fact, in my experience it's been white people who are most guilty of this (history; stormfront; school cliques), but that's only as a counterpoint to your Asians-only view.


Well, when we're talking about white people in the past, then, yes, there are many, many examples of white separatist actions. Nowadays, though, have you really experienced whites separating themselves more than minorities? If so, that's completely the opposite of everything I've seen. Rarely have I ever personally seen a "whites-only" group, with the few times that I have being idiotic Aryan groups and rednecks. I find it very easy to find minority social circles though, that only members of a particular ethnicity are a part of.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Most whites don't ever feel the need to form race, culture, or ethnicity-exclusive groups because white-only groups are already abundant and form naturally everywhere at least in the U.S. and many other Western societies because what we see as white culture of today is essentially the same as the mainstream dominant American culture. C'mon, we don't need to break out the statistics and debate sticks for this.

Like someone already said, this is a stupid thread. How can you argue that one group is more "racist" than another. Discriminatory tendencies toward "ingroup" "outgroup" methods of thinking are deeply rooted in human nature. If we woke up tomorrow and we were all of the same race, ethnicity, or culture, we'd find other ways to separate ourselves and hate on each other.

[nameless]

I would say racism stems from much more than merely that. To try to pinpoint human behavior down to a single reason or causal agent is really nothing more than foolishness. Racism can be due to a number of factors, and pride, I believe, is one of the biggest causes behind it, though there are many contributing factors.

Pride is the ego aspect of self identity, so I would argue that it isn't foolish to view racism in such a way. What else would you say judging others stems from that isn't a result of an individual or group's sense of self? Can't have the former without the latter.


The college degree has nothing to do with having the power, and you merely misunderstood the intention behind my using that example. I used it as a means of refuting the argument that the lack of Asians in the media or in politics is a result of discrimination. I think it has much more to do with other reasons, such as Asian people generally making an effort to succeed in a different field, such as engineering. In the places Asians have made an effort to succeed in within our society, they have been successful.

There's also the view that racial groups go to their occupational niches because they view racial obstacles in certain fields. I forget the name of the theory, maybe someone else knows it. In any case, even if Asians aren't making an effort to become actors, you can't ignore the fact that they have little presence in the media to draw inspiration from.

Well, you initially stated that your belief for the reason as to why Asians are more racist than whites was not a justification for the behavior, but you're treating it as though it is.

If I was justifying it, I would have said it was all right. I didn't.


You're using it in a manner as though it need be understood by one who observes it so that one can see it's not as grave as it may initially appear, but, in all honesty, racism is racism.

I wasn't trying to belittle the harm in racism or the racist behavior of Asians, just pointing out what it really is. Obvious to you, maybe, but others in this thread seem to think racism is just being mean and Asians have a very mean culture.

Also, of course, racism is no less immoral if it's behind closed doors than it is if it's openly celebrated. It doesn't matter what color your skin, if you're racist, you're equally as bad any other racist. Skin color is not what separates us any further than we allow it to.

I agree racism is racism. I don't, however, want to think in terms of morals, because morals are subjective. Anyway, if all we're talking about if racism is bad, then there is really no need for discussion. But if you want to discuss how one group is arbitrarily more racist than another, we might as well get into which group is more harmful. But that's not what you're here for, so let's just move on.


Statistically speaking, whites are far from the biggest group of racism-based crimes. That title belongs to the african-american community. Statistics mean nothing, though, when trying to answer your question, as racism is racism, and one is no less guilty of immorality for being racist based on something such as skin color.

So what exactly were you looking for here? Trying to debunct the belief that Asians don't view themselves as racist or preach?

[siamesedream]

There's also the view that racial groups go to their occupational niches because they view racial obstacles in certain fields. I forget the name of the theory, maybe someone else knows it. In any case, even if Asians aren't making an effort to become actors, you can't ignore the fact that they have little presence in the media to draw inspiration from.

Right, but if they're not making an effort to become actors, then whether or not they're prevalent in the media is completely irrelevant to the discussion. And why would Asians need other Asians to draw inspiration from? How does that follow? Everything has to begin somewhere, and, as already stated, how is that relevant?



If I was justifying it, I would have said it was all right. I didn't.

You don't have to directly state "This justifies it" to actually be justifying it. I don't think you were completely, but, as already stated, you're using it as though it lessens the implications behind that racism.

I wasn't trying to belittle the harm in racism or the racist behavior of Asians, just pointing out what it really is. Obvious to you, maybe, but others in this thread seem to think racism is just being mean and Asians have a very mean culture.

Fair enough.

I agree racism is racism. I don't, however, want to think in terms of morals, because morals are subjective. Anyway, if all we're talking about if racism is bad, then there is really no need for discussion. But if you want to discuss how one group is arbitrarily more racist than another, we might as well get into which group is more harmful. But that's not what you're here for, so let's just move on.

I'm going to go ahead and use this opportunity to ask you to refer to my reply to snailpoo. I'm going to be repeating myself a lot here, I can see, if I don't simply tell people to do that.

Thank you, snailpoo, that's what I thought.

So what exactly were you looking for here? Trying to debunct the belief that Asians don't view themselves as racist or preach?

No, just here to have a discussion on the matter, originally just to find out whether or not other people have observed the same things I have. I was merely angered a bit earlier today after listening to a group of Asians discuss how they hope China takes over America and how they hate it when white or black people date Asians because it's degrading to the Asian race, and other various comments that I found repulsive.

[nameless]

The intention behind a racist comment is not the same as the intention behind a lynching. Easy would it be to find a person who holds racist ideas that is, still, not evil enough to carry forth with a lynching. It is the intrinsic that separates them.

I disagree. Going from "I hate [ethnic group]" to wanting to harm said group is a matter of degree. The intent to differentiate is always there. A person who says mean things about someone else can eventually bring himself to harm that other person if the former views the latter as distant enough. Yes, they are seperate acts, but the underlying thought (which I view as intent) is the same.

[siamesedream]

I disagree. Going from "I hate [ethnic group]" to wanting to harm said group is a matter of degree. The intent to differentiate is always there. A person who says mean things about someone else can eventually bring himself to harm that other person if the former views the latter as distant enough. Yes, they are seperate acts, but the underlying thought (which I view as intent) is the same.

Merely because a person says that they hate someone doesn't mean they would actually kill them. People "hate" other people all the time. If you "disagree" because you think that a person who makes a racist comment is automatically capable of inflicting violence upon that person, then I can't say we have any common ground on this issue. To hold racist views is not necessarily hate, as it can be based on mere ignorance. Many people are simply not evil enough at their core to kill an individual simply because of their negative sentiments toward that particular person, even if they actually do hate someone. There are many degrees of hatred and dislike, and different degrees lead to different actions. Also a large factor is a person's dedication to virtue that overweighs their own desires.

[nameless]

Right, but if they're not making an effort to become actors, then whether or not they're prevalent in the media is completely irrelevant to the discussion. And why would Asians need other Asians to draw inspiration from? How does that follow? Everything has to begin somewhere, and, as already stated, how is that relevant?

If you are aware of race (or whatever group), I think it's fair to say it's easier to be motivated to do something after seeing someone like yourself do it. Obviously, it's not required, but it helps to have a role model - you think Whites were as into rap before Eminem? China into basketball before Yao Ming? Anyway, it's not relevant to the thread, I was just responding to the original media point someone brought up.

[siamesedream]

If you are aware of race (or whatever group), I think it's fair to say it's easier to be motivated to do something after seeing someone like yourself do it. Obviously, it's not required, but it helps to have a role model - you think Whites were as into rap before Eminem? China into basketball before Yao Ming? Anyway, it's not relevant to the thread, I was just responding to the original media point someone brought up.

Speaking of, I would rather have Asians being inspired by movies from China and Hong Kong and then going on to keep in line with those types. This is completely off-topic, but I love overseas Asian film far more than I do Hollywood film. No, I don't know anything about anime and have never seen one, but I have a large collection of foreign Asian film that is constantly growing. Stephen Chow (Americans may know him from "Kung Fu Hustle" and "Shaolin Soccer") is a comedic genius, and I hope his international success only continues to grow after "Kung Fu Hustle". I also really want to see "The Curse of the Golden Flower".

That was completely off-topic, but oh well.

[nameless]

Merely because a person says that they hate someone doesn't mean they would actually kill them. People "hate" other people all the time. If you "disagree" because you think that a person who makes a racist comment is automatically capable of inflicting violence upon that person, then I can't say we have any common ground on this issue. To hold racist views is not necessarily hate, as it can be based on mere ignorance. Many people are simply not evil enough at their core to kill an individual simply because of their negative sentiments toward that particular person, even if they actually do hate someone. There are many degrees of hatred and dislike, and different degrees lead to different actions. Also a large factor is a person's dedication to virtue that overweighs their own desires.

My point wasn't that all racism is hate, and hate automatically means the ability to kill. I was just pointing out that thought process of 'me/us' and 'you/them' is at the root of it all. Anyway, I think you're right about having no common ground. I have the feeling you have an ideological view of good and evil. I don't mind, but I'd just rather not turn this thread into a philosophical discussion (anymore than I already have :wink:).

Anyway, time for bed...

[SunWuKong]

siamesedream, no offense, but the most laughable thing of all in what you've said is that you basically measure "how racist" a people is by how much they like to socialise with their own people, and how they think they are "better" than other people.

you have a lot to learn about racism. and my last post read the way it did because basically, reading your posts, i don't even know where to begin in reply.

[siamesedream]

siamesedream, no offense, but the most laughable thing of all in what you've said is that you basically measure "how racist" a people is by how much they like to socialise with their own people, and how they think they are "better" than other people.

you have a lot to learn about racism. and my last post read the way it did because basically, reading your posts, i don't even know where to begin in reply.

none taken, but if you think that's how I measure racism, then you have misunderstood every single one of my posts. Refer to my reply to snailpoo, as pretty much everything is explained in there. Like I already stated, my problem is not with people who generally enjoy associating with people of their own race because of common interests or things of the like. However, excluding people based on their race or holding negative sentiments toward them because of their race is something that is rediculous. If you don't find superiority complexes or this type of behavior "racist", then you know little about racism.

rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Before we get into an argument of terms, I'm simply going to state that there is no need is that is only done when one side begins to attack the other's terms because they have nothing left to say. Call it what you will, but the act of disliking, hating, or excluding people based on their race is an act that I find to be to be repulsive, and, as I've stated, I've experienced this with Asians the most. So far, none of you have given me any reason to believe otherwise, as all that's really been stated in the opposition are reasons or justificiations for why they are that way; reasons why it's not so bad based on notions that, because they are not generally in political positions, it's lessened in its degree of immorality; or an argument that the act of excluding people based on race or believing that your own race is superior should not be called "racism".

[LaiSteve66]

siamesedream, can you describe some of the acts of racial exclusion you've observed in your experience for us?

[siamesedream]

siamesedream, can you describe some of the acts of racial exclusion you've observed in your experience for us?

already been done throughout the thread :smile: .

[rice cracker]

already been done throughout the thread :smile: .

I think LaiSteve was asking for details, the only detailed experience I could find was this:

In example, my best friend, who is 100% Chinese, moved to a very Asian area back while we were still in high school. All the way from the the beginnings of his arrival to the time we graduated, he would write to me telling me about how he was always experiencing discrimination from the other Asians there because he made white and black friends at the school from the very beginning, so the majority-Asian group would not accept him because he was a "twinkie" who didn't "keep it Asian".

However, this thread bores me so I was only skimming and may have missed something.

[LaiSteve66]

I think LaiSteve was asking for details, the only detailed experience I could find was this:


That's the only specific example I found too and it's Asians excluding an Asian. I wanted an example of Asians excluding a non-Asian.

[siamesedream]

That's the only specific example I found too and it's Asians excluding an Asian. I wanted an example of Asians excluding a non-Asian.

You really want me to sit down and start listing down specific examples of this occurring? Firstly, using specific examples will only annoy most, as, again, they are only isolated examples. Secondly, how many do I actually need to list to satisfy your purpose?

[rice cracker]

As you are using your personal experiences as the basis for much of your arguments, siamesedream, sitting down and listing specific examples of these experiences would be a good start if you're going to keep referring to them.

I wanted an example of Asians excluding a non-Asian.

And really, there's no need to act like LaiSteve just sprung a pop-quiz on you. An example. One.

[LaiSteve66]

One will do, thank you in advance.

[siamesedream]

As you are using your personal experiences as basis for much of your arguments, siamesedream, sitting down and listing specific examples of these experiences would be a good start if you're going to keep referring to them.

But I still don't see the purpose they would serve. It's not as though I woke up one day and said "Hey! Today, I think I'll start believing that a lot of Asian people are racist!".

Since the other guy wanted one example, well, the previous example was already one. Sure, they were excluding an Asian as well, but, necessarily, they were also excluding other races based on the reasons I gave you for why they were excluding him. But, for the sake of argument, another example that could be broken down into many would be the Asian social circles I've been a part of that make every effort to have nothing more than casual association with other ethnicities. Lots of the time, there's always some white guy or black that tries to be a part of Asian social circles, and the other members will, behind his back, generally speak of how they can't stand that guy. In one specific example, when I asked "Why?". I got the response "Well, because he's a honkey". I didn't even know that word lived past the '70s.

[rice cracker]

But I still don't see the purpose they would serve. It's not as though I woke up one day and said "Hey! Today, I think I'll start believing that a lot of Asian people are racist!".

Well, who does wake up and say, "Today, yes, TODAY I WILL BE RACIST MOO HOO HA HA!"

Anyway, I can't speak for LaiSteve, but two purposes I can see being served by listing your experiences is to 1) clarifying the vague "experiences" you kept referring to, and 2) talking about Asian racism based on those experiences. :smile:

But, for the sake of argument, another example that could be broken down into many would be the Asian social circles I've been a part of that make every effort to have nothing more than casual association with other ethnicities. Lots of the time, there's always some white guy or black that tries to be a part of Asian social circles, and the other members will, behind his back, generally speak of how they can't stand that guy. In one specific example, when I asked "Why?". I got the response "Well, because he's a honkey". I didn't even know that word lived past the '70s.

That's actually a really good one, but I've experienced this on the white side too.

[SunWuKong]

Call it what you will, but the act of disliking, hating, or excluding people based on their race is an act that I find to be to be repulsive, and, as I've stated, I've experienced this with Asians the most. So far, none of you have given me any reason to believe otherwise, as all that's really been stated in the opposition are reasons or justificiations for why they are that way; reasons why it's not so bad based on notions that, because they are not generally in political positions, it's lessened in its degree of immorality; or an argument that the act of excluding people based on race or believing that your own race is superior should not be called "racism".

1) you've already said that you are making this judgement just based on personal experience, not on data, reports, and statistics that are available for you to read. if i said that my own personal experience tells me that white people are the most racist, does that change your mind? no. you're not going to "believe otherwise" because you only want to go by your own personal experience, and anecdotal and personal experience is highly subjected to bias, personal or otherwise. this is why only going by personal experience, while you're perfectly entitled to do so, is nearly pointless to present as an argument. it just amounts to "he said, she said".

2) we're talking on completely different wavelengths. when i think of racism, i think about how people have been denied upward social mobility based on race, and how people have been marginalised in society based on race, etc etc. but you only seem to attribute racism to something like a bunch of Asian people not inviting a white guy to a party because they think less of white people. i'm not denying at all that there are a lot of racist Asian people. but considering the volumes and volumes of statistics and reports that exist about racism in American society, it would be ridiculous of me to think that Asians are "more racist" than white people because you think that Asians like to exclude non-Asians in social settings - which, from my own personal experience, is something that whites and basically all other races do also.

3) where does the line get drawn between people who like to be with their own kind because of common culture and interests, and people who likes to be with their own kind for the simple reason of race? going back to the example of your Chinese friend, i submit that those who supposedly discriminated against him are not racist, because if they fall under your criteria of determining racism, they would not have discriminated against him, being that he is Chinese. however, just from what you're wrote, it seemed that they discriminated against him because he was a "twinkie". that's not a racial classification, but a classification based on interests and to an extent, culture. let's say i'm interested in Chinese and other East Asian cultures, their food, entertainment, etc etc, and i like to talk about East Asian politics. why would i want to hang out with someone that have no interests whatsoever in these things, barring that we don't have some other similar interestings? and hey, i've experienced something like this personally. i tried to take two white friends of mine to see a Chinese movie that's playing in the theater. first they had to be basically coerced into it. then when they sat down in the theater and found out that they had to read subtitles, they left to go watch another movie. now in my whole life, i've met maybe 1 or 2 white people that like to watch Chinese movies. me, i love to watch Chinese movies, and just about every Chinese person i know also like to watch them. so you tell me, if i had to exclude someone to come to my place to eat some Chinese food and watch a Chinese movie, who should i exclude, the white guy, or the Chinese guy?

4) i'm noticing a trend of you explaining away how institutionalised racism is not really racism at all, yet you readily accept that Asians exclude others socially because they are racist. reports are widely available about income disparity, about the glass ceiling, about media stereotyping, and yes, even about Asian Americans being rejected from higher education even though they are perfectly qualified. now, as far as politics, i concede that Asian American politicians simply don't have a big constituency to rise to very high ranks. some of the facts we know are, for example, that CEOs are overwhelmingly disproportionately white men - are you going to explain that all minorities and even white women just do not tend to go into management or business as much as white men do? how about the glass ceiling? we're talking about people doing the same jobs but getting paid less and getting promoted less. the media - it's not so much about Asians not being represented, it's about Asians and other minorities as well being stereotyped. even if a disproportionally less number of Asians get into the entertainment industry, how does that justify stereotyping? simply put, there are issue after issue that are on a much larger scope and importance than some random Asian people you or i personally know thinking that they are superior because they're Asian. are they CEOs, media moguls, politicians? people who could negatively affect a person's life? or are they just people who could withhold a party invitation because they don't like non-Asian people?

[AngryABCGirl]

Have you ever considered that Asians and minority groups in general (including non-racial groups based on religion and sexuality) tend to "stick together" and be "exclusive" because they are the outgroup in a society that is majority and run primarily by those who are White, Christian, and male? Have you also considered that maybe that many aren't doing it by completely by choice or rather that they are excluded?

Racism isn't just about people they don't want to hang out with X,Y,Z, it's about years of history and institutionalized thought. America, at its birth has had a long history of racial strife and exclusion. In fact all non-White groups in this country have been subject to exclusion laws both clear cut and murky. The newest of these is so-called legislation to protect us from terrorism and immigration laws that basically target and profile Muslims and Latinos because they are currently percieved as threatening groups. Laws aside, employment rates and stances on issues such as affirmative action clearly show the divide in thought in America that intersect class with race, gender with race, religion with race, sexuality with race. Yes Asians do hold a large amount of college degrees in the population, but is that equating to upward mobility? If it truly was, than there wouldn't be so much talk of glass ceilings and discrimination in the workplace (hence creation of Asian (insert x here) Associations). This goes for all minorities in different contexts.

Whites do not feel the affect that institutionalized racism produces because these institutions whether consciously on the parts of most Whites or not has been made to protect them and much of the wealthy. Minorites across all the boards, including Asians feel this, especially the lower down the class ladder you go and various levels of assimliation. Maybe they'll even throw an insult at those "damn gringos" sometime and not trust them so much.

To break it down simplier and provide true to life examples of things that actually happen: A Cambodian kid lives in a Bay Area neighborhood in low-income housing. His parents are refugees as result of the Vietnam War which the US waged in all of Indochina (Vietnam AND Cambodian and Laos). After his family survives through refugee camps for years (because Western countries don't really want an influx of brown immigrants into their country) and a devestating war he comes as a small child to America. He doesn't know much about this history except that his relatives have emotional disturbances once in awhile.

But when he's growing up he cares more about surviving through the low-income school he's sent to where the education is inadquate and unsafe. The schooling is broken and there aren't enough books and it's unsafe because the majority of America (who is White and middle-class) does not believe in funding schools or even cares to realize the broken conditions of schools in minority neighborhoods. His family doesn't understand this because of language and cultural barriers and simply trying to make ends meet. He ends up joining a gang to protect himself with other Cambodians. He'll even beat up that Chinese kid and hate him because that kid managed to makes friends with a few rich White kids outside the neighborhood whose parents pretend his parents are invisible because they can't speak English or even call them communist gooks. Maybe he gets in trouble with the police even at some point with a misdeamnor. Maybe he'll get deported years later to Cambodian even though he doesn't know the langauge for the minor crime because there are terrorism laws designed to make the American psyche feel safter by deporting "the bad people" or the people with no means of fighting for their rights.

Maybe he doesn't and makes and it college. He becomes an engineer and goes to Berkeley. His accent and demeanor from his neighbhorhood turns him off from White peers and upperclass East Asian peers at his university. He can't relate to them either. Maybe he'll drop out without guidance and the ability to survive in the competitive environment because of his bad education. Maybe he won't and will find his peers in a Cambodian Student Association and find pride in who he is and go back to help his community, where he will be seen as being exclusive for associating maining with his peers.

He graduates and gets a successful job but people still look at him twice because of his accent. Maybe he'll be seen as not leadership material because people don't listen to an Asian man with an accent the way they do to a Blonde man that speaks like he's from a middle class background.

So maybe when it's happy hour he'll go out with the other Asian guys at the firm. Maybe meet a fellow Cambodian woman, or another Asian, that can relate to his life. And his friends are gonna be in that circle. Maybe they won't trust other ethnic groups as much as their own because they feel discriminated against and don't relate to Whites, maybe they remember being bullied by other minorities as children, maybe other minorities see Asians as sellouts and not true minorities.

Then they're seen as racists for wanting to stick together. For feeling bitter once inawhile. For feeling ethnic pride for everything they went through. Mainstream White America will criticize them for not assmilating enough, but the police won't help when the local temple is vandalized with racist epihets because "it's just some dumb kids."

Believe it or not, this long example is a story I've come to know from many people's expeirences including my own and true to live and history of many Asian Americans. It's also indicative of how racism goes every direction in society and there's more to it than just exclusivity among groups.

[AngryABCGirl]

Speaking of, I would rather have Asians being inspired by movies from China and Hong Kong and then going on to keep in line with those types. This is completely off-topic, but I love overseas Asian film far more than I do Hollywood film. No, I don't know anything about anime and have never seen one, but I have a large collection of foreign Asian film that is constantly growing. Stephen Chow (Americans may know him from "Kung Fu Hustle" and "Shaolin Soccer") is a comedic genius, and I hope his international success only continues to grow after "Kung Fu Hustle". I also really want to see "The Curse of the Golden Flower".

That was completely off-topic, but oh well.

A note on this, not all Asian Americans feel that particular tie to Asia. Not everyone is from China or Hong Kong either.

Plus the Asian films you can find in the US outside of ethnic communities are carefully imported for their exotic value and not necessarily reflective of what people are actually watching in Asia.

People do like seeing their experiences reflected in film and art and people representing them in the media in the society they are in. Hence celebrations for Yul Kwon winning survivor and the large amount of independent Asian American films playing at film festivals and trying to get in recent years because we're sick of the way Hollywood portrays us and telling our own stories.

I'm not saying Asians shouldn't like or find inspiration from Asian films, but not everyone feels that way. Or there are people like me who support both who has worked at Asian American Film Festivals and now rushing to see 滿城盡帶黃金甲 with everyone else in Taipei despite knowing it was going to be bad but had 周董 in it. But I also relate and was happy when Better Luck Tomorrow came out and was picked up by a mainstream distributor to see a story told about characters I could relate to in an unconventional way. That maybe may be considered more Hollywood, but is much closer to life for many Asian Americans across than Stephen Chow who needs to stop with the his narracism of recent years.

[siamesedream]

1) you've already said that you are making this judgement just based on personal experience, not on data, reports, and statistics that are available for you to read. if i said that my own personal experience tells me that white people are the most racist, does that change your mind? no. you're not going to "believe otherwise" because you only want to go by your own personal experience, and anecdotal and personal experience is highly subjected to bias, personal or otherwise. this is why only going by personal experience, while you're perfectly entitled to do so, is nearly pointless to present as an argument. it just amounts to "he said, she said".

I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that I'll be repeating myself from here on out throughout the rest of the life of this thread, as all I'm getting now are regurgitated points that I've already responded to.

As I've already stated, I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind who has had a different personal experience than I have. I've stated this multiple times, and I'm beginning to feel everything I keep writing is somehow going right over everyone's head. As said, I'm merely here for a discussion, and noone's mind is going to change based on my explanation of personal experience unless their view has been reached due to a personal bias that refuses to draw certain conclusions based on what they, themselves, have seen. The majority of all that I'm getting is not a denial of this, but merely justifications and excuses as to why this is so. As well, I've also stated that I am not concrete in my theory (a statement devised to explain an observed pattern of events), and, were I so, I wouldn't be here discussing them.

2) we're talking on completely different wavelengths. when i think of racism, i think about how people have been denied upward social mobility based on race, and how people have been marginalised in society based on race, etc etc. but you only seem to attribute racism to something like a bunch of Asian people not inviting a white guy to a party because they think less of white people. i'm not denying at all that there are a lot of racist Asian people. but considering the volumes and volumes of statistics and reports that exist about racism in American society, it would be ridiculous of me to think that Asians are "more racist" than white people because you think that Asians like to exclude non-Asians in social settings - which, from my own personal experience, is something that whites and basically all other races do also.

Well, I don't think you a liar, and if you can honestly say that you've seen as many racist white people as you have Asians, then, merely, we have seen completely different sides of things. Again, as I've stated, though, to make an honest statement you have to be free of bias and only looking to find evidence supporting what you want to believe.

It's also a rather rash and completely unsubstantiated assumption to say that I "only" attribute racism to "something like a bunch of Asian people not inviting a white guy to a party because they think less of white people". I'm merely saying there is no difference between the racism behind someone denying an ethnicity upward social mobility and that same group of Asian people excluding that white guy because they think less of him because he's white. Intrinsicially, the immorality is the same. The only difference between the abilities each party has to place their racism into action. The same sentiment that would deny an ethnicity upward social mobility is the one that would exclude an ethnicity based on race.

3) where does the line get drawn between people who like to be with their own kind because of common culture and interests, and people who likes to be with their own kind for the simple reason of race? going back to the example of your Chinese friend, i submit that those who supposedly discriminated against him are not racist, because if they fall under your criteria of determining racism, they would not have discriminated against him, being that he is Chinese. however, just from what you're wrote, it seemed that they discriminated against him because he was a "twinkie". that's not a racial classification, but a classification based on interests and to an extent, culture. let's say i'm interested in Chinese and other East Asian cultures, their food, entertainment, etc etc, and i like to talk about East Asian politics. why would i want to hang out with someone that have no interests whatsoever in these things, barring that we don't have some other similar interestings? and hey, i've experienced something like this personally. i tried to take two white friends of mine to see a Chinese movie that's playing in the theater. first they had to be basically coerced into it. then when they sat down in the theater and found out that they had to read subtitles, they left to go watch another movie. now in my whole life, i've met maybe 1 or 2 white people that like to watch Chinese movies. me, i love to watch Chinese movies, and just about every Chinese person i know also like to watch them. so you tell me, if i had to exclude someone to come to my place to eat some Chinese food and watch a Chinese movie, who should i exclude, the white guy, or the Chinese guy?

You couldn't have asked for a simpler answer. As obvious as it seems, the answer is merely what the exclusion is actually based on. Again, I'm going to state that, because you guys are regurgitating already-said things, I'm going to have to respond to them again referring back to what I've already written. As I said, excluding someone based on different cultural interests or things of the like is not something I find any fault with. I even directly stated I could care less if someone said something that resembled the statement "White people generally are focused too much on MTV for me to find them interesting" or "I usually don't along with Asian people". The difference lies in the intrinsic, as I've already stated many times.

Going back to the example of my Chinese friend, you've analyzed the situation from a very superficial viewpoint. My accusation was not that they hate Chinese people or excluded my friend because he was Chinese. Obviously, they aren't racist against Chinese people. They discriminated against him because some of the very first friends he made were white people and black people, and this act was looked upon as a betrayal of the other Asian people, thus they began to call him a "Twinkie". To analyze the situation deeper also begs the question as to why someone has such a strong hatred of another culture's practices, interests, or behaviors. Is it the practices, interests, and behaviors themselves, or is it BECAUSE they are practices, interests, and behaviors of an already-hated ethnic group? The judgement can't simply be made by observing someone who dislikes another race's general practices, but a rational conclusion can be drawn based on the way they speak of that particular race as well as the way they treat them.

4) i'm noticing a trend of you explaining away how institutionalised racism is not really racism at all, yet you readily accept that Asians exclude others socially because they are racist. reports are widely available about income disparity, about the glass ceiling, about media stereotyping, and yes, even about Asian Americans being rejected from higher education even though they are perfectly qualified. now, as far as politics, i concede that Asian American politicians simply don't have a big constituency to rise to very high ranks. some of the facts we know are, for example, that CEOs are overwhelmingly disproportionately white men - are you going to explain that all minorities and even white women just do not tend to go into management or business as much as white men do? how about the glass ceiling? we're talking about people doing the same jobs but getting paid less and getting promoted less. the media - it's not so much about Asians not being represented, it's about Asians and other minorities as well being stereotyped. even if a disproportionally less number of Asians get into the entertainment industry, how does that justify stereotyping? simply put, there are issue after issue that are on a much larger scope and importance than some random Asian people you or i personally know thinking that they are superior because they're Asian. are they CEOs, media moguls, politicians? people who could negatively affect a person's life? or are they just people who could withhold a party invitation because they don't like non-Asian people?

Please, if this is a "trend" you're noticing, give me one example of where I stated that institutionalized racism isn't really racism. That's another rediculous assumption. I merely stated that the immorality of institutionalized racism and the immorality of racism existing among persons without the ability to use their racist ideals to affect society on a large level is the same. To re-state what has already been stated, yet again, I merely made the argument that the racism in both cases is equal. Again, this issue just seems to be brought up as a way of excusing minority racism. The "it's not that important" schtick is being thrown around like a ragdoll and is an extraordinarily laughable excuses. The racism on both sides is still the same regardless of the different abilities to act upon it. I would say that the reason behind your complaint about the lack of Asians in the media and in CEO positions is not one that I can conclusively state. Is racism a possible factor? Absolutely. Is the prospect that minorities simply go into different fields a possible factor? Absolutely. Despite a disproportionate number, there are still many, many successful minority CEOs, politicians, and media figures, and many other explanations than simply "White people are holding them down". Quite honestly, I would believe it's a mixture of both, but simply saying that, because there are a disproportionate number of minorities in a particular field, it must be racism that's holding them down is an act of massive assumption. Also, to let you know, Asians have a much higher median income than do whites. Not just family income, but personal income, as well. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist and that it does not contribute at least slightly to holding minorities down, I simply don't believe it is nearly as large a barrier as minorities pretend it is. Racism, whether it be institutionalized, personal, held by a majority, held by a minority, or contained due to circumstance or not, it is still racism and equally wrong in every case.

[siamesedream]

A note on this, not all Asian Americans feel that particular tie to Asia. Not everyone is from China or Hong Kong either.

Plus the Asian films you can find in the US outside of ethnic communities are carefully imported for their exotic value and not necessarily reflective of what people are actually watching in Asia.

People do like seeing their experiences reflected in film and art and people representing them in the media in the society they are in. Hence celebrations for Yul Kwon winning survivor and the large amount of independent Asian American films playing at film festivals and trying to get in recent years because we're sick of the way Hollywood portrays us and telling our own stories.

I'm not saying Asians shouldn't like or find inspiration from Asian films, but not everyone feels that way. Or there are people like me who support both who has worked at Asian American Film Festivals and now rushing to see 滿城盡帶黃金甲 with everyone else in Taipei despite knowing it was going to be bad but had 周董 in it. But I also relate and was happy when Better Luck Tomorrow came out and was picked up by a mainstream distributor to see a story told about characters I could relate to in an unconventional way. That maybe may be considered more Hollywood, but is much closer to life for many Asian Americans across than Stephen Chow who needs to stop with the his narracism of recent years.

Ehh, I think you took that comment WAY too seriously. There was no philosophical undertone, nor was there present anything other than a display of the movies that I have a personal preference for. When I stated "I would rather have Asians...", I wasn't saying that based on anything serious or anything ideological, I was saying that with a playful attitude on the grounds that I would have even more movies to enjoy. It wasn't at all serious. Such was the reason I made my China-Hong Kong comment which you actually responded to as though it were serious, though I was only making it jokingly in light of the fact most of my imported movies come from there. A few come from Japan and Thailand, though, but mostly from China and Hong Kong.

As far as what people actually watch in Asia, I find most of my movies due to websites and friends of mine in Asia who often inform me of movies, and I import them off the internet. I import a bunch of movies, and have been happy to see some of the figures I have known successful in recent years in the USA due to them being brought over here by American media moguls.

As far as Stephen Chow's narcissism, I wouldn't know anything about that as film is not something I know anything more about than the ones that I like. All I do is basically watch random imported movies, and I know nothing about the actual "scene" of things when it comes to Asian cinema other than things involving martial arts since I am a martial artist and very involved in that scene.

And I've never seen "Better Luck Tomorrow", but an Asian girl I know tried to make me watch "The Joy Luck Club" last month, but I convinced her to watch something else instead since I heard that that movie was a movie that could only be enjoyed by women. Whether or not that's true, I can't say, but I didn't see the need to take a chance since she agreed to watch something else :) .

[AngryABCGirl]

Ehh, I think you took that comment WAY too seriously. There was no philosophical undertone, nor was there present anything other than a display of the movies that I have a personal preference for.

Trying to be informative bro.

[SunWuKong]

I guess I'll just have to accept the fact that I'll be repeating myself from here on out throughout the rest of the life of this thread, as all I'm getting now are regurgitated points that I've already responded to.

As I've already stated, I'm not here to try to change anyone's mind who has had a different personal experience than I have. I've stated this multiple times, and I'm beginning to feel everything I keep writing is somehow going right over everyone's head. As said, I'm merely here for a discussion, and noone's mind is going to change based on my explanation of personal experience unless their view has been reached due to a personal bias that refuses to draw certain conclusions based on what they, themselves, have seen. The majority of all that I'm getting is not a denial of this, but merely justifications and excuses as to why this is so. As well, I've also stated that I am not concrete in my theory (a statement devised to explain an observed pattern of events), and, were I so, I wouldn't be here discussing them.

justifications and excuses? actually that's not how i read them. what i've read is that people have explained to you why your perception might be skewed, and since you seem to be basing your conclusion on your personal experience only, it would imply that your conclusion is arrived at falsely.

Well, I don't think you a liar, and if you can honestly say that you've seen as many racist white people as you have Asians, then, merely, we have seen completely different sides of things. Again, as I've stated, though, to make an honest statement you have to be free of bias and only looking to find evidence supporting what you want to believe.

It's also a rather rash and completely unsubstantiated assumption to say that I "only" attribute racism to "something like a bunch of Asian people not inviting a white guy to a party because they think less of white people". I'm merely saying there is no difference between the racism behind someone denying an ethnicity upward social mobility and that same group of Asian people excluding that white guy because they think less of him because he's white. Intrinsicially, the immorality is the same. The only difference between the abilities each party has to place their racism into action. The same sentiment that would deny an ethnicity upward social mobility is the one that would exclude an ethnicity based on race.

yet in spite of your idea that you find no difference between the "immorality" of the two different situations, you assert that Asian people are the most racist?

and i have to disagree with you. if there is such a thing as someone being "more" immoral, i'd have to say that it is more immoral to deny a group of people their upward social mobility based on their race. both the intent and the result are more severe and devastating.

why do i think you are attributing racism to something like a bunch of Asian people not inviting a white guy to a party? because you have mostly cast doubts into whether or not things like the glass ceiling, negative media portrayals, etc etc, are really caused by racism, thereby taking them out of the equation on who is "more" racist. yet you do not cast the same doubts on your experience that Asian people have excluded others.

You couldn't have asked for a simpler answer. As obvious as it seems, the answer is merely what the exclusion is actually based on. Again, I'm going to state that, because you guys are regurgitating already-said things, I'm going to have to respond to them again referring back to what I've already written. As I said, excluding someone based on different cultural interests or things of the like is not something I find any fault with. I even directly stated I could care less if someone said something that resembled the statement "White people generally are focused too much on MTV for me to find them interesting" or "I usually don't along with Asian people". The difference lies in the intrinsic, as I've already stated many times.

so where is that magical line between someone who is socially excluding based on a lack of similar interests, and someone who is socially excluding because of race? because if such a line exists, i don't really see where it is. i'm not regurgitating the same things that's been said, i'm wondering what you consider to be social exclusion based on race, versus social exclusion based on culture or interests. like the example i gave you, i've met maybe 2 white people who actually like Chinese cinema. yet basically all Chinese people i know like Chinese cinema. i can't share my love of Chinese cinema with white people because they simply don't appreciate it as much as Chinese people i know. so what if i said i don't share nearly as much interests or similar background with the white people i know, as i do with Chinese or Asian people i know? if i exclude them in my social outings, am i being racist? what if i don't like hanging out with white people as much because from my experience, they don't understand racism and i can't have an intelligent conversation about it with them? am i being racist? where is the magical line?

Going back to the example of my Chinese friend, you've analyzed the situation from a very superficial viewpoint. My accusation was not that they hate Chinese people or excluded my friend because he was Chinese. Obviously, they aren't racist against Chinese people. They discriminated against him because some of the very first friends he made were white people and black people, and this act was looked upon as a betrayal of the other Asian people, thus they began to call him a "Twinkie". To analyze the situation deeper also begs the question as to why someone has such a strong hatred of another culture's practices, interests, or behaviors. Is it the practices, interests, and behaviors themselves, or is it BECAUSE they are practices, interests, and behaviors of an already-hated ethnic group? The judgement can't simply be made by observing someone who dislikes another race's general practices, but a rational conclusion can be drawn based on the way they speak of that particular race as well as the way they treat them.

why do you say it's a "strong hatred" of another culture's practices, behaviours, and interests? why is it not simply that they are not interested in them? this, again, goes back to you easily accepting that Asian people are racist.


Please, if this is a "trend" you're noticing, give me one example of where I stated that institutionalized racism isn't really racism. That's another rediculous assumption. I merely stated that the immorality of institutionalized racism and the immorality of racism existing among persons without the ability to use their racist ideals to affect society on a large level is the same. To re-state what has already been stated, yet again, I merely made the argument that the racism in both cases is equal. Again, this issue just seems to be brought up as a way of excusing minority racism. The "it's not that important" schtick is being thrown around like a ragdoll and is an extraordinarily laughable excuses. The racism on both sides is still the same regardless of the different abilities to act upon it.

so why would you think that Asians are the "most racist"? and if you do not deny instituational racism exists, then a lot of it must be attributed to white men, because they are the decision makers in this country.

I would say that the reason behind your complaint about the lack of Asians in the media and in CEO positions is not one that I can conclusively state. Is racism a possible factor? Absolutely. Is the prospect that minorities simply go into different fields a possible factor? Absolutely. Despite a disproportionate number, there are still many, many successful minority CEOs, politicians, and media figures, and many other explanations than simply "White people are holding them down". Quite honestly, I would believe it's a mixture of both, but simply saying that, because there are a disproportionate number of minorities in a particular field, it must be racism that's holding them down is an act of massive assumption. Also, to let you know, Asians have a much higher median income than do whites. Not just family income, but personal income, as well. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist and that it does not contribute at least slightly to holding minorities down, I simply don't believe it is nearly as large a barrier as minorities pretend it is. Racism, whether it be institutionalized, personal, held by a majority, held by a minority, or contained due to circumstance or not, it is still racism and equally wrong in every case.

this is exactly the "trend" that you were asking for. just read what you're wrote above. whethor or not you're right is really another discussion on institutionalised racism in general, but the point is that you're casting doubts into racism that would be committed by white people, yet you easily accept that Asian people's behaviour is an exhibition of racism.