Faces of North Korea

[AliBabaIncorporated]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6052344.stm

These photos are kinda cool (even if they're really low resolution), but I can't stand the self-congratulatory tone in the captions. "Oooh look at us, we're BBC reporters and we're so brave, we went to Dandong with a telephoto lens and took photos of Sinuiju". Buncha wankers.

So I'll just paste the photos without the captions

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200728_girls_ap_220.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200734_soldier_ap_220.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200736_finger_ap_220.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200738_boys_ap_416.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200740_officer_ap_416.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200744_balloon_ap_220.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200742_fishers_ap_416.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200754_haircut_ap_416.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200756_women_ap_416.jpg

That last one really makes me think of the Soviet Union ...

[DragonKnight]

That last one really makes me think of the Soviet Union ...
I'm thinking late 80s, early 90s hairstyle.

[yoMAMA]

north korea is one big open air prison.

[Flow to Live]

heres a video on N. Korea:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6951629397402742053&q=north+korea&hl=en

[Faithless]

north korea is one big open air prison.
Certainly puts a face on the people just before we bomb them into thousands of little bits.

Bush: "I've got yur freedom right herrrrre!"

[yoMAMA]

Certainly puts a face on the people just before we bomb them into thousands of little bits.


FAT CHANCE.

they don't have no oil.

[Player 0]

You know the fact that only one soldier/police officer was yelling at them for taking photos says a lot i think.

Anyway i honestly doubt NKorea is as bad as the media paints it to be, sure there's poverty, but clearly it's not as bad as crap like 'NKoreans ethnically clense Chinese minorities' and such shit.

Personally i think that this could all be solved easily if the neo-cons weren't in power, the main reason NKorea is in such a sorry state is because of US sanctions, if NKorea were allowed to trade and gain FDI freely from the international community, which the US doesn't allow, then these problems would disappear.

It's really very simple economics.

[Yeahman]

Yes, it's all America's fault. Totalitarian regime starving its people half-way around the world? Damn Bush! How does our benevolent Dear Leader put up with this?!

[BigLew]

Yeah! So let's save them from this evil oppression by bombing the holy living shit out of them. If a couple hundred thousand have to die before we finally do save them it's ok because at least they will finally be free!

[Russ]

Recent satellite image of Korean peninsula at night:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/061012/ids_photos_ts/r3596590233.jpg

[haplesshobo]

Personally i think that this could all be solved easily if the neo-cons weren't in power, the main reason NKorea is in such a sorry state is because of US sanctions, if NKorea were allowed to trade and gain FDI freely from the international community, which the US doesn't allow, then these problems would disappear.

It's really very simple economics.

Oh really....

And, and who was president in the 90s when North Korea's economy was spiraling out of control?

And, how exactly does America prevent the rest of the international community from trading with North Korea or gain FDI from the international community? If America prevents all that from happening, how do you explain Najin-Sunbong, Shinuijoo, or Kaesung?

Dude, we get it. You hate the United States, and therefore blame us for all the world's problems.

[Player 0]

Oh really....

And, and who was president in the 90s when North Korea's economy was spiraling out of control?

And, how exactly does America prevent the rest of the international community from trading with North Korea or gain FDI from the international community? If America prevents all that from happening, how do you explain Najin-Sunbong, Shinuijoo, or Kaesung?

Dude, we get it. You hate the United States, and therefore blame us for all the world's problems.

You can't blame it all on Kim, there are numerous reaons that NKorea has economic problems, mainly to do with the fall of the USSR, and continued US snactions.

America uses its political clout to keep NKorea from accessing markets and investors in the US and EU, who the world's primary sources of capital.

No i don't blame the US, although it is responsible for many of the problems in the world that have occurred in the past 50 years, the majority of problems that most of the world suffers from for the last 200 years have been caused by western impreialism in general.

[haplesshobo]

No i don't blame the US, although it is responsible for many of the problems in the world that have occurred in the past 50 years

Oh, you just blame America for most of the world's problems the last 50 years....

Mao and his failed policies. AIDs crisis in Africa.

Yep, let's make America a convienent scapegoat.

Since you hate America so much, I'm surprised you're even using the internet, and writing in english.

You can't blame it all on Kim, there are numerous reaons that NKorea has economic problems, mainly to do with the fall of the USSR, and continued US snactions.

Too bad that ignores the fact that North Korea originally tried to go on a path of self-reliance under Kim Il-Song. So, how could those sanctions, enacted after North Korea's invasion of South Korea, hurt North Korea economically if North Korea was trying to be self-reliant.

Or that the US lifted most of those sanctions back in the 90s, with the exception of things like missle and WMD technology.

And, the fact that those sanctions were lifted and yet that didn't really change much highlights a couple of obstacles.

North Korea is a really poor communist country, where it never had the money to become a major market for US products.

Nor did North Korea really have any resources or products to sell to the United States. Indeed, North Korea is a net importer, not exporter. It relies on foreign aid and food to survive. The one thing North Korea does sell to other countries, missle technology, the US really isn't interested since its own missles are superior.

If North Korea doesn't have the money to buy anything, or the resources the US wanted, then what good or harm would those economic sanctions do?

At best, North Korea has a low wage labor market but that wasn't a comparative advantage when the US could also turn to other asian countries for those same low wages.

Personally, I'd blame a lot of North Korea's economic problems on misallocation of resources. You know, basic economics. For a country that poor, they should have invested their money into its industries instead of allocating so much of into their military(possibly as much as 25% of their GNP).

America uses its political clout to keep NKorea from accessing markets and investors in the US and EU, who the world's primary sources of capital.

Well, as we've seen in recent events, the US does not control the european countries to do what the US orders it to do.

Plus, you're also ignoring the 1970s when North Korea imported all that Western technology, but later defaulted on those loans. If the US can really prevent all that, then how did North Korea get ahold of that technology, or all those loans by other countries. I'd say that's a big reason why other countries are reluctant to invest in North Korea because its already defaulted on previous loans.

And, I wouldn't write off Japan as a major potential source of capital. But, North Korea also defaulted on its loans to Japan as well.

[Player 0]

Oh, you just blame America for most of the world's problems the last 50 years....

Mao and his failed policies. AIDs crisis in Africa.

Yep, let's make America a convienent scapegoat.

Since you hate America so much, I'm surprised you're even using the internet, and writing in english.



Too bad that ignores the fact that North Korea originally tried to go on a path of self-reliance under Kim Il-Song. So, how could those sanctions, enacted after North Korea's invasion of South Korea, hurt North Korea economically if North Korea was trying to be self-reliant.

Or that the US lifted most of those sanctions back in the 90s, with the exception of things like missle and WMD technology.

And, the fact that those sanctions were lifted and yet that didn't really change much highlights a couple of obstacles.

North Korea is a really poor communist country, where it never had the money to become a major market for US products.

Nor did North Korea really have any resources or products to sell to the United States. Indeed, North Korea is a net importer, not exporter. It relies on foreign aid and food to survive. The one thing North Korea does sell to other countries, missle technology, the US really isn't interested since its own missles are superior.

If North Korea doesn't have the money to buy anything, or the resources the US wanted, then what good or harm would those economic sanctions do?

At best, North Korea has a low wage labor market but that wasn't a comparative advantage when the US could also turn to other asian countries for those same low wages.

Personally, I'd blame a lot of North Korea's economic problems on misallocation of resources. You know, basic economics. For a country that poor, they should have invested their money into its industries instead of allocating so much of into their military(possibly as much as 25% of their GNP).



Well, as we've seen in recent events, the US does not control the european countries to do what the US orders it to do.

Plus, you're also ignoring the 1970s when North Korea imported all that Western technology, but later defaulted on those loans. If the US can really prevent all that, then how did North Korea get ahold of that technology, or all those loans by other countries. I'd say that's a big reason why other countries are reluctant to invest in North Korea because its already defaulted on previous loans.

And, I wouldn't write off Japan as a major potential source of capital. But, North Korea also defaulted on its loans to Japan as well.

Yes actually: Mao's policies were prompted by the aggressive policies of the US and USSR governments of that time, both trying to contain the PRC and/or overthrow the government, for this purpose Mao had to build up a powerful economy very quickly. AIDs is actually apart of the problem caused by European colonialism as well as sanctions against poor African countries in the past few years. I don't hate America, i'm just pointing out problems that have been caused by its government and western governments in general, it's a basic part of history.

Juche was actually successful with support from the USSR and PRC, trade and aid from those two nations over the past 50 years made NKorea's economy very healthy, with its collaspe however NKorea must convert its economy to a more capitalist style like the PRC did, Kim however has different opinions about how that should be done, he clearly believes that national security should be a priority overeconomic development, and that's not really surprising with people like George Bush in office.

The US can influence the EU, its already done so now with the EU arms embargo against China. NKorea doesn't have the capital to pay back those loans, and its sad, but not unexpected, to this day many African nations haven't the financial resources to repay loans to western or Asian nations, and it was only recently after years of economic development that the PRC was able to pay off all its debts.

[yoMAMA]

Since you hate America so much, I'm surprised you're even using the internet, and writing in english.





since when did America have the language of english monopolized?
:biggrin:

[Golden Monkey]

This is cute but it's the only one that seems staged.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200744_balloon_ap_220.jpg

I like this. It's got a cool retro feel to it. If they only knew about the shopping and salons available in the South they'd overthrow the system by themselves!!:biggrin:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42200000/jpg/_42200756_women_ap_416.jpg

Classic! Like two different planets. Communism and totalitarianism vs. Capitalism and freedom. (relative freedom anyway.)


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20061012/i/r3596590233.jpg

[haplesshobo]

Juche was actually successful with support from the USSR and PRC, trade and aid from those two nations over the past 50 years made NKorea's economy very healthy, with its collaspe however NKorea must convert its economy to a more capitalist style like the PRC did,

Again, if Juche was that succesful and it was the official policy, then how could those US sanctions harm North Korea if it wanted no dealings with the US during that time period? If you're going to argue that the sanctions hurt North Korea only after the fall of the Soviet Union, the US lifted its sanctions against North Korea in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Kim however has different opinions about how that should be done, he clearly believes that national security should be a priority overeconomic development, and that's not really surprising with people like George Bush in office.

Look at the chronology of events. Bush made that comment after 9/11 in 2001. But, North Korea had already withdrawn from Nuclear Non-Profileration Treaty in 93, kicked out inspectors, and was suspected by Blix to have secretly started creating weapons grade plutonium in the early 90s. We now know that in 97 that North Korea traded its missle technology with Pakistan for Pakistan's nuclear technology. That train had already left the station by the time Bush even made that comment, or invaded Iraq.


The US can influence the EU, its already done so now with the EU arms embargo against China. NKorea doesn't have the capital to pay back those loans, and its sad, but not unexpected, to this day many African nations haven't the financial resources to repay loans to western or Asian nations, and it was only recently after years of economic development that the PRC was able to pay off all its debts.

Dude, explain to me how North Korea could get those loans from western countries to buy western technology if you're going to continue to lie that the US prevented other countries from investing in North Korea. Explain the French-built Ch'ngnyn Integrated Chemical Works Pyongyang if the US uses its political clout so that European countries stay away from North Korea. Most people would recognize that technology transfer and loan as evidence that other foreign countries could invest in North Korea, and in fact, did put money into North Korea.

But, only after a few years, in the 1970s, North Korea defaulted on all those loans and that's a major reason why countries haven't invested in money since. Why put money into a country which you know has little regard for paying you back?

[Chad]

Clearly many North Koreans have an opportunity to leave the country if things get really bad. They do trade with other countries. Ships carry goods back and forth. A ship that carries goods can also carry people. Why don't the North Korean traders themselves defect if things are so horrible in their country?
Sattelite images of a dark country at night is the same as the images of a country at war. Turn out the lights so the bombers don't hit you! The authorities probably instruct citizens to turn their lights off at night to save energy and to avoid being attacked. The mentality is of constantly being under threat of attack and it's not totally unfounded since the same army which tried to destroy North Korea is still camping south of their border.
A militarized society is the easiest situation for a change of leadership. Seems like if North Koreans themselves really wanted to change their government they could do it since they are the army. There are many examples of this happening throughout history all over the world. But it's hard to tell.. for all we know, 99% of North Koreans could be in love with Kim Jong Il.

[robotic]

it's really hard to dispute on issues like north korea.

because at the end of the day, how much is factual and how much is bias? are we really influenced more by the latter or the former? if we choose the former, is it really that easy to tell when not being a korean living in north korea or not having substantial proof for the going-abouts of a country that tends to live behind a shadow?

it's kind of hard when you're constantly bombarded by the evilness of north korea. maybe things aren't so black and white. and maybe that's just idealistic thinking, but have we really encountered an equal balance of the fact and the bias to ensure an unprejudiced opinion about a people we can't even say we really know?

[haplesshobo]

Clearly many North Koreans have an opportunity to leave the country if things get really bad. Why don't the North Korean traders themselves defect if things are so horrible in their country?

The reason more North Koreans don't try to leave is because if they're caught and returned to North Korea, they're often killed.

When's the last time you've heard of widespread famine in a industrialized nation that's not in a war?


Sattelite images of a dark country at night is the same as the images of a country at war. Turn out the lights so the bombers don't hit you! The authorities probably instruct citizens to turn their lights off at night to save energy and to avoid being attacked. The mentality is of constantly being under threat of attack and it's not totally unfounded since the same army which tried to destroy North Korea is still camping south of their border.

The US doesn't have enough soldiers in South Korea to launch an invasion of North Korea, and those soldiers stationed there only there as a sacrificial lamb in case North Korea tries to invade South Korea one more time. There's no way the US could attack the North, without the North first destroying pretty much all of Seoul first.


A militarized society is the easiest situation for a change of leadership. Seems like if North Koreans themselves really wanted to change their government they could do it since they are the army. There are many examples of this happening throughout history all over the world. But it's hard to tell.. for all we know, 99% of North Koreans could be in love with Kim Jong Il.

Actually, I would think a democracy would be the easiest situation to get new leadership.

[robotic]

it would be great however, if kim jong il stepped down :/
most (emphasizing most!) regimes never, ever work.

[Yeahman]

Clearly many North Koreans have an opportunity to leave the country if things get really bad. They do trade with other countries. Ships carry goods back and forth. A ship that carries goods can also carry people. Why don't the North Korean traders themselves defect if things are so horrible in their country?
For some of the same reasons that Mexican traders don't stay illegally in the US. They already have a decent job. They wouldn't necessarily be better off in another country and could very possibly be worse off, financially at least. Those who would really want to defect tend to be in positions that don't offer them that opportunity.

And besides, it takes a lot of balls to defect. Your average North Korean probably doesn't even know that if you manage to make it to most foreign embassies, you'll be granted asylum. But they do know what happens if you get caught.

Sattelite images of a dark country at night is the same as the images of a country at war. Turn out the lights so the bombers don't hit you! The authorities probably instruct citizens to turn their lights off at night to save energy and to avoid being attacked. The mentality is of constantly being under threat of attack and it's not totally unfounded since the same army which tried to destroy North Korea is still camping south of their border.
If you actually see the areas outside of Pyongyang, they're mostly shitholes. They are no highways. No nightlife. No 7-11s. That's why it's dark.

A militarized society is the easiest situation for a change of leadership. Seems like if North Koreans themselves really wanted to change their government they could do it since they are the army. There are many examples of this happening throughout history all over the world. But it's hard to tell.. for all we know, 99% of North Koreans could be in love with Kim Jong Il.
99% (or close to it) of North Koreans do love Kim Jong Il. That's the problem. They're brainwashed. They're told that the problems in NK are caused by everyone else and that Kim Jong Il is their savior, literally. He is their religion.

[friedfishribs]

Again, if Juche was that succesful and it was the official policy, then how could those US sanctions harm North Korea if it wanted no dealings with the US during that time period? If you're going to argue that the sanctions hurt North Korea only after the fall of the Soviet Union, the US lifted its sanctions against North Korea in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

What? The US has continuously refused to even diplomatically recognize North Korea as a sovereign nation, and has systematically encouraged the UN to increase already stringent economic sanctions.

Look at the chronology of events. Bush made that comment after 9/11 in 2001. But, North Korea had already withdrawn from Nuclear Non-Profileration Treaty in 93, kicked out inspectors, and was suspected by Blix to have secretly started creating weapons grade plutonium in the early 90s. We now know that in 97 that North Korea traded its missle technology with Pakistan for Pakistan's nuclear technology. That train had already left the station by the time Bush even made that comment, or invaded Iraq.

1994, Agreed Framework. North Korea froze its nuclear program and allowed in international nuclear arms inspectors to check their facilities. The weapons grade plutonium you're referring to is a by-product of an old-Russian nuclear reactor, as in, the kind you use to power a country, which as a part of the treaty, was shut down. North Korea's nuclear weapons program only significantly restarted (despite extreme mistrust from the US) in 2002, following Bush's self-proclaimed right to wage preemptive war. Interestingly enough, North Korea offered to establish a nonaggression treaty with the US at this point, in return for shutting down its nuclear reactor and allowing international agencies to inspect their facilities. The US ignored the offer, and proceded to preemptively invade Iraq.

Dude, explain to me how North Korea could get those loans from western countries to buy western technology if you're going to continue to lie that the US prevented other countries from investing in North Korea. Explain the French-built Ch'ngnyn Integrated Chemical Works Pyongyang if the US uses its political clout so that European countries stay away from North Korea. Most people would recognize that technology transfer and loan as evidence that other foreign countries could invest in North Korea, and in fact, did put money into North Korea.

Yay! Foreign investment! I suppose I could point out the long-history of Western foreign "investment" being synonymous with "colonization," beginning with the East Indian Company and lasting all the up way to Hawaii, the Phillipines, and the Middle East, but I suppose your faith in western capitalism is too strong to be shaken.

When's the last time you've heard of widespread famine in a industrialized nation that's not in a war?

All the times America chooses to bomb power plants, factories, communications towers, other "strategic installations" and the general infrastructure at large (key bridges, roads, etc.), and then refuses to recognize it as a war by giving it a flowerly euphenism. Oh, and all the military dictators we've supported who have in turn, ruled totalitarian governments, denied social and economic reform to their citizens, and then starved the populace at large. "Industrialized" can only be measured on a gradient. Many nations have the presence of technology, but have been otherwise economically incapacitated by the neo-colonial power that "invested" it.

The US doesn't have enough soldiers in South Korea to launch an invasion of North Korea, and those soldiers stationed there only there as a sacrificial lamb in case North Korea tries to invade South Korea one more time. There's no way the US could attack the North, without the North first destroying pretty much all of Seoul first.

In 2002, the Department of Defense listed its personnel in South Korea numbering 37,605 American troops, 2,875 US civilians working for the military, and 7,027 resident American dependents - roughly equivalent to all the Americans that died in the Korean War. You might also be interested the various military installations in South Korea that have their own complements of B-1 and B-52 bombers, and stealth fighters. Or you could look at the Yongsan Army Garrison, which occupies over 600 acres right in the middle of Seoul, is filled with recreational facilities and malls - and is closed to the all Koreans. Also, in this modern age of military technology, jet fighters could easily launch from any one of the US bases that surround the entire world. Military bases that, incidentally, occupy land and station foreign troops in a sovereign nation. When was the last time that happend to the US? Oh I remember, right before it become one of the principle violations that led to the Declaration of Independence and the American Revolutionary War.

You might also be interested in the long list of sexual assaults and general criminal activity that the surround the military bases in Korea - typical of the American legionnaire. You might also be interested that none of these American career soldiers can be tried for the crimes against Koreans in Korea. All of them are brought back to America, tried in a closed-to-the-public military court, and given a small slap on the wrist.

Actually, I would think a democracy would be the easiest situation to get new leadership.

Just as long as it's not Western exported democracy.