Japanese occupation of Korea - Lesser of two evils?

[bkim1974]

This is propbably a very unpopular belief in Korea but I think the Japanese occupation of Korea was the lesser of two evils.The alternative? Soviet occupation of Korea.

As people may be aware Choson was a very weak country in the early 20th century. The various factions of the Choson royal court were busy borrowing foreign influence to achieve their goals. The royal court was divided between the pro Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and Western factions. The country was ripe for picking and my belief is that if Japan had not prevailed in the Russo Japanese War and the Sino Japanese War, the either China or Russia would have occupied Korea. Since China was weak as well, the best guess is Russia.

In the age of Imperialism, I think foreign occupation of Choson was inevitable.

Not let's try to imagine if Russia had annexed Korea. The country would have been united but under communist rule for the next 80 years or so. The majority of the population could have been moved to Uzbekistan since Stalin feared the Koreans would spy for the Japanese. And of course the end of WWII would mean nothing to Korea since they would still be occupied.

What do you think?

[Player 0]

That's sreally a doubtful scenario, if Russia did win the Russo-Japanese war, it was a doubtful outcome, most likely what would happen, if history goes according to real parallels, is that during the 1917 revolution Japan would've seized Korea from the weakened Russian and would've been supported by western powers as stopping communism from entering Asia, if not the Japanese then Korean nationalists.

However, if Korea became apart of the USSR, then there would've been positive benefits, Korea would've suffered under Stalin, but after it would receive the same benefits as many Soviet republics, like equality, employment, access to modern technology, and a better living standard overall thanks to Soviet industrialization, plus look at it at a global scale, if this happened then the Japanese may have been reluctant about expansion in the 1930s, that means no Pearl Habor, no US entering WWII, no China being invaded and colonized by Japan.

In the long run it may have meant a stronger Soviet Union or Nazi Germany winning the war, most likely the USSR as Hitler's strategies in Babarossa were flawed from the beginning.

[BeTheReds]

The Soviet Union did not exist at the time that Japan annexed Korea, so no, the Soviets would not have had control over Korea, Czarist Russia would have. But let's say that at the time of the Russian revolution Russian controlled colonial Korea became Soviet Controlled colonial Korea. Communism, at least idealogically would have had the entire situation at a paradox, as it preaches the equality of all peoples, regardless of race and gender. Soviet Communism isn't really communism then, as it is enforced socialism and a one party government. Korean infrastructure still could have been built up in the same manner that Japanese built it, only that supposedly the atrocities that the Japanese committed against Koreans would not have happened. In addition, Japan without Korea as a colony would have had no economic, or geographical base to invade China, thus the atrocities there would also have never occured. With no Japanese empire in Asia, WW2 in Asia would never have been fought, as the region would have been dominated by Russia/the Soviets. Thus there would have been no need for Stalin to move anyone anywhere.

It really changes everything, and perhaps rather than the Axis of Germany Japan and Italy, we'd have had something else entirely.

Surely the main security problem in the region would have been the power clash between Russia and a modernized Japan, but this is assuming that the Japanese would have lost the Russo Japanese war, in a sense, meaning that they would have been seriously weakened.

The US then might have found Japan as its ally against Russian expansion in East Asia. Maybe we might have even seen Japanese and Chinese cooperation against Russia/USSR's influence in the region... who knows?

It's very hard to suggest that Japan was the lesser of two evils. I don't think the atrocities and second class citizenship that Koreans were subjected to can really be any better than what Russia/USSR might have done. Furthermore, Korea was divided because the USA and USSR decided to do so after Japan lost. If Russia had been there in 1905, perhaps we can say that Korea would never have been divided in the first place. One can only wonder if Korea would have been a part of the USSR as a SSR, or if it would have simply been a colony.

I don't know if we can say with definity that either would have happened. This topic takes a lot of analyzation in order to come to a distinctive conclusion. If I had to choose, I personally would be interested in what would have happened if Russia had won the Russo Japanese war. I unfortunately don't know very much about what kinds of things the Soviets did in the areas they conquered, such as the Ukraine and Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Was it really worse than jeongshindae? Than the experiments? I'd like to think no, but I'd have to do more research for that to confirm.

Either way both results would have been shitty for Korea, and it would have been better if Korea, could have somehow remained independant. But simply saying Japan was better for Korea than Russia or someone else is glossing over the subject too easily.

[SunWuKong]

good points, BTR. i think there would have been a good chance that Korea would not have been divided had the USSR occupied Korea.

life in Japanese occupied Korea was no walk through the park, but Stalin did not have a good track record dealing with Koreans, either. so it would be difficult to tell whose rule would have made the lives of the common people less shitty.

[yoMAMA]

One can only wonder if Korea would have been a part of the USSR as a SSR, or if it would have simply been a colony.



most of ex soviet republics are still bitter towards russia, especially the baltic states forcefully annexed during ww2 in an accord with stalin and hitler.

and then there's the chechenya bloodshed....

[VV o n g B a]

if korea had fallen under russina/soviet rule and escaped japanese atrocities and escaped division, i wonder if they might today resemble the baltic states which were the only former soviet republics not to enter the cis. the baltics have been doing rather well economically but of course, haven't yet developed any world leading namebrands like samsung or LG. or even hyundai, kia, or daewoo (that i know of). would it be worth trading world class status and past atrocities for a possibly unified but underdeveloped nation?

bleh. yomama got in the baltics comment before me. but yeah, they don't seem fond of the russians.

[bkim1974]

good points, BTR. i think there would have been a good chance that Korea would not have been divided had the USSR occupied Korea.

life in Japanese occupied Korea was no walk through the park, but Stalin did not have a good track record dealing with Koreans, either. so it would be difficult to tell whose rule would have made the lives of the common people less shitty.

I think everyone is forgetting something. It is likely that Korea would not have been under direct control of Soviet Union. Instead it would have became a Communist satellite like Poland or Hungary. What if Korea was under the control of Our Great Leader Kim Il Sung and later our Dear Leader Kim Jong Il? Or maybe someone even worse?

I think most of you have heard what life is like in North Korea right now. And the whole missile incident That is why I wonder if the Japanese occupation WOULD have been the lesser of two evils..

if korea had fallen under russina/soviet rule and escaped japanese atrocities and escaped division, i wonder if they might today resemble the baltic states which were the only former soviet republics not to enter the cis. the baltics have been doing rather well economically but of course, haven't yet developed any world leading namebrands like samsung or LG. or even hyundai, kia, or daewoo (that i know of). would it be worth trading world class status and past atrocities for a possibly unified but underdeveloped nation?

bleh. yomama got in the baltics comment before me. but yeah, they don't seem fond of the russians.

And what if unified Korea was under the control of our Dear Leader Kim Jong Il? I shudder thinking that

[SunWuKong]

I think everyone is forgetting something. It is likely that Korea would not have been under direct control of Soviet Union. Instead it would have became a Communist satellite like Poland or Hungary. What if Korea was under the control of Our Great Leader Kim Il Sung and later our Dear Leader Kim Jong Il? Or maybe someone even worse?

I think most of you have heard what life is like in North Korea right now. And the whole missile incident That is why I wonder if the Japanese occupation WOULD have been the lesser of two evils..

i doubt i have the right perspective to answer that question. i've heard from some Koreans that they think a unified communist Korea is better than a divided Korea.

[BeTheReds]

I think everyone is forgetting something. It is likely that Korea would not have been under direct control of Soviet Union. Instead it would have became a Communist satellite like Poland or Hungary. What if Korea was under the control of Our Great Leader Kim Il Sung and later our Dear Leader Kim Jong Il? Or maybe someone even worse?


Kim Il Sung got his rep fighting against the Japanese. That's why he's even considered to be a hero to South Koreans. With no Japanese to fight, there wouldn't have been a Kim Il Sung.


I think most of you have heard what life is like in North Korea right now. And the whole missile incident That is why I wonder if the Japanese occupation WOULD have been the lesser of two evils..

NK is like that now because of international pressure from the US and its allies restricting NK's cheif moneymaking industries (especially selling of weapons to other nations.) If you recall, up until about the 1970s, North Korea was much better off economically than South Korea.


And what if unified Korea was under the control of our Dear Leader Kim Jong Il? I shudder thinking that

See above. There wouldn't have been a Kim Jong Il because there would have been no Kim Il Sung.

Now I'm not trying to suggest that Stalin controlled Korea would have been rosy at all. But it's really difficult to suggest that it would have been worse (or better) than Japan actually was. We may never know.

[bkim1974]

i doubt i have the right perspective to answer that question. i've heard from some Koreans that they think a unified communist Korea is better than a divided Korea.

As you can imagine this was a hotly debated topic in Korea..

Kim Il Sung got his rep fighting against the Japanese. That's why he's even considered to be a hero to South Koreans. With no Japanese to fight, there wouldn't have been a Kim Il Sung.

It is true Kim got his street cred fighting against the Japanese but he was never been considerd a hero to South Koreans.. But considering how socialism according to Marrx turned into a totalitarion form of communism, is it really hard to imagine unified Korea to be rule by some despot in the mold of Stalin/Kim Jong Il?



NK is like that now because of international pressure from the US and its allies restricting NK's cheif moneymaking industries (especially selling of weapons to other nations.) If you recall, up until about the 1970s, North Korea was much better off economically than South Korea.

That's not saying much. South Korea was just so damm poor up to the 70s because most of the natural resources and heavy industries was located in North Korea. They just got a head start.



See above. There wouldn't have been a Kim Jong Il because there would have been no Kim Il Sung.

Now I'm not trying to suggest that Stalin controlled Korea would have been rosy at all. But it's really difficult to suggest that it would have been worse (or better) than Japan actually was. We may never know.

Ditto. Just somthing to think about

[AliBabaIncorporated]

What if Korea became part of the USSR?

Well, in the beginning of the USSR, Moscow actually granted a fair amount of autonomy and assistance to the fraternal socialist countries. So those days probably wouldn't have been so bad. But then, as Nazi Germany rose and it became clear they'd be fighting a war soon, Stalin took action to clear the potential front lines of anyone perceived to be disloyal. Hence the Holodomor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor), deportations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union), etc. Pre-WWII Stalinism applied directly on the territory of Korea would have been ugly. (Not to mention, the Soviets would probably have forced them to use the Cyrillic alphabet instead of Hangul, the same as he did for the Turkic countries, Tajikistan, Mongolia, etc.).

And in the post-war period? Would direct Soviet rule really have been better than Juche? I doubt that either. The non-Slavic "near abroad" of the Soviet Union always got screwed over; the Russians never built up their infrastructure the way they did in Eastern Europe (which they saw as the primary potential infantry front), but dumped all sorts of shit on them (like the Aral Sea disaster). North Korea never got much direct Soviet infrastructure subsidies, but on the other hand, they also managed to avoid turning into a Soviet dumping ground, and they survived the collapse of the Union without devolving into civil war.

Whatever else you wanna say about Kim Il-sung, he didn't let the Soviets rule his kingdom and direct his internal policies. And whatever else you want to say about Japanese rule, they left plenty of capital infrastructure behind (more so in North Korea than in South Korea).

[BeTheReds]

Whatever else you wanna say about Kim Il-sung, he didn't let the Soviets rule his kingdom and direct his internal policies. And whatever else you want to say about Japanese rule, they left plenty of capital infrastructure behind (more so in North Korea than in South Korea).

True and true, but a Russian/Soviet Korea/Manchurian region would have necesitated infrastructure, railroads, education, factories at the very least.

Anyway it really is hard to say how things would have turned out if Korea was an SSR. Would WWI or WWII have happened in the same way if Russia had won the Russo Japanese war? Would Czarist Russia have been overthrown by the Bolshevics if that had happened? There are too many variables.

I am of course not denying that the Japanese colonial rule did have positive results for Korea. That doesn't mean that we should overlook the atrocities however.

Anyway...

[Napoleon Chynamite]

If I may throw another tomato from the sidelines, I never really saw the point of these debates...it's like starting a thread arguing that slavery of blacks in the U.S. was not quite as bad as the Holocaust because at least they got to keep their lives, or that the Rwandan genocide wasn't quite as bad as the Pol Pot thing because statistically not as many people died.

My .02...arguing that Japanese occupation of Korea was a necessary evil is like arguing that white racism is a necessary evil because things would be even worse if Asians or blacks ran shit in this country.

[VV o n g B a]

If I may throw another tomato from the sidelines, I never really saw the point of these debatesso what if there's no universally agreed upon outcome? it's still interesting to think about what might have happened. i suppose u aren't really interested in any fictional works whatsoever b/c, really, whats the point of reading about stuff that never happened and never will?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

so what if there's no universally agreed upon outcome? it's still interesting to think about what might have happened. i suppose u aren't really interested in any fictional works whatsoever b/c, really, whats the point of reading about stuff that never happened and never will?

because i read fiction to be entertained and there seems to be much more room for what-might-be....

it's not quite the same for me if we're talking about real life historical events and switching it around

in any case, there is an overall tint of grave seriousness when discussing matters such as these, so I'd feel guilty satiating any type of thirst for fantasy or entertainment. Something about arguing that one person/group's suffering is not as bad/worse than another's turns me off (or would not have been as bad under different circumstances but still shitty nonetheless).

Edit: And although I'm sure the initial poster did not have these sentiments in mind, the idea permeates and lingers throughout the discussion nevertheless....that somehow Japanese occupation of Korea is at least partially justified. Even if he doesn't think so, it's quite a possibility that some observers may arrive at such a conclusion.

[bkim1974]

If I may throw another tomato from the sidelines, I never really saw the point of these debates...it's like starting a thread arguing that slavery of blacks in the U.S. was not quite as bad as the Holocaust because at least they got to keep their lives, or that the Rwandan genocide wasn't quite as bad as the Pol Pot thing because statistically not as many people died.

My .02...arguing that Japanese occupation of Korea was a necessary evil is like arguing that white racism is a necessary evil because things would be even worse if Asians or blacks ran shit in this country.

Read the thread again. This was never about whether Japanese occupation was a "necessary evil" The question was whether given the choice between a Russian/Soviet occupation and a Japanese occupation, could the Japanese occupation been the lesser of two evils.

because i read fiction to be entertained and there seems to be much more room for what-might-be....



Edit: And although I'm sure the initial poster did not have these sentiments in mind, the idea permeates and lingers throughout the discussion nevertheless....that somehow Japanese occupation of Korea is at least partially justified. Even if he doesn't think so, it's quite a possibility that some observers may arrive at such a conclusion.

Only in the minds of the right wing Japanese extremists. These people belive they did Korea a favor by modernizing it.