Movie - Red Doors and the Controversy [Archive]

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Seraphfire

09-03-2006, 12:53 AM

Hi YW'ers, have you been following the controversy over the movie Red Doors?

http://www.angryasianman.com/angry.html

http://www.xanga.com/Mike2Cents/524164907/item.html

http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=7163

What are your opinions? Seems AAs can be the harshest critics but also expected to be the strongest supporters of AA films. Can future AA films avoid controversy like this?

I fully support AA film making but I find myself be choosier given the unbalanced AA media representation. As the Red Doors creators have said, they could have done better in the film and I just feel strongly that they should have.

WARNING: Lots of plot spoilers in all these threads.

Player 0

09-03-2006, 03:09 AM

Although it is a good thing that this film shows American audiences the oppression caused by their government, i somehow doubt it will have much of an effect in the long run, in fact i bet that the film makers will be forced to tone down a lot of the details on the camps because it may offend American sensibilities.

Seraphfire

09-03-2006, 08:56 AM

^^ Not that movie, the one called Red Doors.

kimpossible

09-03-2006, 08:58 AM

I'm not really sure if he mentioned it the last time he was on here but Michael was here to promote The Motel and he might have said something previously. I'd have to go back and check. Maybe he's interested in coming back to promote this as well? I can try.

Golden Monkey

09-03-2006, 02:56 PM

Well, for those offended by this movie just remember that almost nobody has heard of it let alone seen it.

So it's meaningless.

returntosender

09-03-2006, 03:04 PM

Seraphfire

09-03-2006, 05:27 PM

EDIT: That fighting44 forum link is full of nastiness.
Aye that's true. But ignore those, I find many of the more thoughtful replies very interesting. The constructive replies should help AA filmmakers focus on different projects or in the least be better prepared to defend their movie. I think their lack of political radar made much of the controversy a self-inflicted wound.

Which brings up the question, should AA film makers not only acknowledge there are issues of AA representation but also act on them too?

P.S. Yes, Red Doors isn't groundbreaking at all on many levels. It may be a good story but with so few films touted as AA films, it's a disappointment.

SunWuKong

09-04-2006, 07:21 PM

Which brings up the question, should AA film makers not only acknowledge there are issues of AA representation but also act on them too?

it's ultimately going to be a balance between their personal careers and satisfying the Asian American community. i know nothing about the film industry, and i certainly don't know what the specific situation is with this movie, especially since it's a small-budget project. was it really true that they were unable to get good Asian actors for those roles? maybe, maybe not. it certainly would be great if they had been able to do that though.

TheABC

09-05-2006, 02:53 AM

The OP from the Fighting 44s has a point, why do they equate rebellious with white male marrying?

mr. x

09-05-2006, 03:48 AM

The OP from the Fighting 44s has a point, why do they equate rebellious with white male marrying?
yeah, pretty bourgeouis if you ask me, as much as I loathe that word

black guys, now that's raising some hell

hooligan

09-05-2006, 06:34 AM

I know the sister of the director. I might just watch it.

What I am amazed is that why aren't there more romance movies made by APIA men?

returntosender

09-05-2006, 10:35 AM

it's ultimately going to be a balance between their personal careers and satisfying the Asian American community. i know nothing about the film industry, and i certainly don't know what the specific situation is with this movie, especially since it's a small-budget project. was it really true that they were unable to get good Asian actors for those roles? maybe, maybe not. it certainly would be great if they had been able to do that though.

there are actually a lot of issues to be discussed-some of it having to do with the movies premise, and others having to do on a wider scope.

SunWuKong

09-05-2006, 12:31 PM

there are actually a lot of issues to be discussed-some of it having to do with the movies premise, and others having to do on a wider scope.

i have not seen the movie, and if it really is about rebellion from traditions, then it's very cliché. but fictional story-telling doesn't necessarily have to advance a political or social cause. at best, to me, the premise is just boring.

Seraphfire

09-05-2006, 02:15 PM

i have not seen the movie, and if it really is about rebellion from traditions, then it's very cliché. but fictional story-telling doesn't necessarily have to advance a political or social cause. at best, to me, the premise is just boring.
I don't disagree. But when the AA community is asked by the creators to support a film just because it has an Asian theme, then I think it is not unreasonable for the film to meet the expectations of the AA community.

SunWuKong

09-05-2006, 03:13 PM

I don't disagree. But when the AA community is asked by the creators to support a film just because it has an Asian theme, then I think it is not unreasonable for the film to meet the expectations of the AA community.

and what is the expectation of the AA community, exactly? we're not exactly all in agreement here about this movie. we know what the expectation is at sites like thefighting44s and MM.com, but they hardly represent the rest of us that dislike those sites. and people like Michael Kang and AngryAsianMan are not exactly calling for a boycott either.

if we're talking about yellowface and buckteeth, something like Long Duk Dong, yeah i'd complain about that. portraying Asian women with white men yet again, on the other hand, is just cliché. so is the "rebel against traditional Asian culture" theme. do i think it is harmful to the AA community? not necessarily.

if we're to bring in the issue of whether or not the filmmaker is aware of the social issues and whether or not he or she cares about them? to me, it's inconclusive. again, personally i don't know the exact details of what happened with the casting. if this was a multi-million dollar Hollywood project, yeah, there's no way i'd believe she can't get good Asian male actors for the roles. but that's hardly the case here.

Banana

09-05-2006, 05:03 PM

red doors was supposed to be turned into a t.v. series about a year ago wasn't it? even back then it was stirring controversy because the three suitors to the three asian daughters were all caucasian. at first they said it was because there weren't any asian actors who tried out for the role, but this time they are saying that it's because georgia lee grew up in a predominantly white neighbourhood and dated mainly white guys. that is coming straight from an email by Mike Kang.

They can't even get their stories straight.

I was reading Kang's blog where she [Lee] cast white guys because that's what her personal dating experiences were. Then, Lee explained that the original actors were Asian but dropped out at the last minute. Which one is it? It seems that Kang, Lee, or anyone else that was involved in this production or crew are just grabbing at straws.

Someone delightfully pointed it out that it doesn't cater to my demographic as an Asian male so I'll take a pass. I resent the fact of being guilted into watching a movie just because it was produced by Asian Americans. Maybe this time they'll learn like how other companies learn. Cater to as much people as you can and you'll get the most amount of return.

I'd rather pay $10 and see the Tony Jaa movie as opposed to Joy Luck Club + Pushing Hands + Eat Drink Man Woman.

I'd also like to point out that the "complainers" have brought up many legitimate points but were rebutted with some really weak responses.

Seraphfire

09-05-2006, 05:53 PM

and what is the expectation of the AA community, exactly? we're not exactly all in agreement here about this movie. we know what the expectation is at sites like thefighting44s and MM.com, but they hardly represent the rest of us that dislike those sites. and people like Michael Kang and AngryAsianMan are not exactly calling for a boycott either.

if we're talking about yellowface and buckteeth, something like Long Duk Dong, yeah i'd complain about that. portraying Asian women with white men yet again, on the other hand, is just cliché. so is the "rebel against traditional Asian culture" theme. do i think it is harmful to the AA community? not necessarily.

And what IS the expectation at sites like thefighting44s and MM.com that you are so willing to generalize? Never mind, you don't discuss other sites now do you?!

In any case, they have a diverse set of members there just like the AA community has a diverse set of opinions on films. But expectations does not equal opinions or indifference which is what some defenders of the film are hoping for; that the AA community should not have expectations. Their basic argument is more is better than none (i.e. Jane Chen) so they ran into a firestorm because a good segment of the community was willing to opine the opposite.

And harm isn't relevant here, the creators wanted support from the AA community for a mediocre AA film and most supporters were willing to admit the same opinion you hold, "Nothing new to see here." So should they get it? Where's the problem?

The problem is, not portraying Asian women with white men again, became an expectation when Jane Chen and others said they understood AA representation issues. OK then, you understood but failed to act? What gives? Then we get those feeble answers and realize, heck no, they really didn't understand sadly.

As I said before, the AA community may be their harshest critics but then they should have seen that as an opportunity.

SunWuKong

09-05-2006, 07:53 PM

And what IS the expectation at sites like thefighting44s and MM.com that you are so willing to generalize? Never mind, you don't discuss other sites now do you?!

the expectation over there is that Jane Chen should die a horrible death? but i admit that's just a guess. is she not what you would call a "CCB"?

The problem is, not portraying Asian women with white men again, became an expectation when Jane Chen and others said they understood AA representation issues. OK then, you understood but failed to act? What gives? Then we get those feeble answers and realize, heck no, they really didn't understand sadly.

As I said before, the AA community may be their harshest critics but then they should have seen that as an opportunity.

ok, then don't watch the movie. but obviously plenty in the Asian American community are not as critical as some other segments may be. like i said, if this was a multi-million dollar project, i wouldn't believe for one second that the filmmakers couldn't get good Asian actors for those roles. but this is not that kind of a project. and what other complaints do you have of the theme or plot other than the fact that the female characters are with white guys? accents? stereotypes? racial slurs? etc?

Seraphfire

09-05-2006, 10:24 PM

the expectation over there is that Jane Chen should die a horrible death? but i admit that's just a guess. is she not what you would call a "CCB"?
You guess badly. :mad: I don't call anyone a CCB and I and many others resent the inference. You should refrain from stereotyping just because you have personal gripes with some members there. I believe many members thanked Jane Chen and Michael Kang for posting their opinions and explanations. But I guess you did not bother to read the thread, there were many constructive comments offered to them.

SunWuKong

09-05-2006, 10:49 PM

You guess badly. :mad: I don't call anyone a CCB and I and many others resent the inference. You should refrain from stereotyping just because you have personal gripes with some members there. I believe many members thanked Jane Chen and Michael Kang for posting their opinions and explanations. But I guess you did not bother to read the thread, there were many constructive comments offered to them.

my apologies to you personally then. i just thought the term "CCB" was part of the approved and regularly used vocabulary at thefighting44s.com.

and hey, i'm not trying to start any beef. i think all the existing AA sites serve a purpose or demographic. i'm glad MM.com and thefighting44s.com are around for those members that love to talk about the "CCBs", so they don't flood YW instead.

Seraphfire

09-05-2006, 11:01 PM

pikachupacabra

09-05-2006, 11:16 PM

returntosender

09-05-2006, 11:29 PM

my apologies to you personally then. i just thought the term "CCB" was part of the approved and regularly used vocabulary at thefighting44s.com.

and hey, i'm not trying to start any beef. i think all the existing AA sites serve a purpose or demographic. i'm glad MM.com and thefighting44s.com are around for those members that love to talk about the "CCBs", so they don't flood YW instead.

the producer who wrote into the fighting44, jane chen, is married to an asian american so she isn't a ccb.

SunWuKong

09-05-2006, 11:31 PM

Alright then, let's bring the thread back on topic because I am interested in opinions from around the AA community. Lack of participation here is making me think YW falls into the more indifferent spectrum of the AA community when it comes to AA filmmaking. Not that that is bad, not everyone has opinions on everything.

you're wondering why people here aren't interested in, or at least interested in talking about, a movie with yet again Asian women paired off with white guys? :confused: :rolleyes:

that movie will probably just circulate the film festival circles and art house theaters unto oblivion like so many Asian American movies tend to do. honestly, personally i don't really give a shit. i'd care if i thought i might actually like the movie though. but this particular one doesn't sound like something i'd like, Asian-made or not.

well, Greg Pak does have an account here. he's only made a few posts though.
http://forums.yellowworld.org/member.php?u=1012

returntosender

09-05-2006, 11:38 PM

What does CCB stand for?

The movie personally doesn't strike me as very interesting, and I've suffered through lots of AA cinema that turned out to be painful. Maybe because it seems like it tries hard to appear quirky on the surface? Quirky AA film is an odd concept to me, I almost feel like we're not quite at the stage of development to be that "off center", that we still need to have a vibe of "serious".

i think one of the pains being brought it about calling red doors an 'aa film' is it's lack of participation from asian american males. with the exception of tzi ma, the father figure, red doors *ahem* shuts it doors to asian american male representation-much like everything else coming from hollywood, and increasingly, even aa indies. the fighting 44 is mainly made up of young asian american professionals who want to be represented and red doors, with it's excuses upon excuses on why asian males were not available, felt like just another stab in the back to them.
georgia lee has been questioned on why she didn't try hard enough to include some young aa males, possibly as the boyfriends to some of the daughters, and still her answers have been unsatisfactory. point is, hollywood is already very hard on asian american male representation, georgia lee had a chance to rectify that without changing the theme of her movie very much but she didn't. it's her movie and her money, as someone had already brought up, but trying to court the aa support without answering the criticism doesn't seem right.

oh and ccb = 'cracka chasing bitch'. it's listed in the urban dictionary to describe women, particularly asian women, who only date white men.

Seraphfire

09-06-2006, 09:11 AM

I think the excuses made such as 'even if we did include Asian men people would be unhappy because they didn't get the girls' and that 'Tzi Ma is sexualized because he has 3 daughters' were very unsatisfactory answers.

I made the point that even if the Asian men didn't get the girl a good segment of the AA community would have been happy to see an AA film make any romantic portrayal of contemporary Asian men that other movies dared not do. In fact, I think the support would have far outweighed the detractors that the Asian men didn't get the girl. Middle aged men who pop onto the screen already with grown children are not my idea of a romantic role.

Seems like a total lack of market research on the creators part. I also heard that the movie was made at the same time as Saving Face but languished waiting for a distributor. So poor timing, even the Asian lesbian theme wasn't even a first.

I think the AA filmmakers focus on keeping true to a story and making stories they feel are interesting cannot be their primary consideration. Making films meet some expectations of the AA community should be considered if they want to count on AA support. It's basic market research.

the producer who wrote into the fighting44, jane chen, is married to an asian american so she isn't a ccb.
She was honest and had good intentions and I appreciated her going to the forum and explaining her side of the story. I didn't like her assertion though that any AA story is better than none. Like we need 10 more William Hungs.

SunWuKong

09-06-2006, 11:08 AM

I think the AA filmmakers focus on keeping true to a story and making stories they feel are interesting cannot be their primary consideration.

i have to disagree with this. i doubt most filmmakers of any race enter the industry so they can further a social or political goal.

kimpossible

09-06-2006, 11:15 AM

Lack of participation here is making me think YW falls into the more indifferent spectrum of the AA community when it comes to AA filmmaking.

Or it may be your thread considering the total amount of traffic in A&E here. It may help if we tighten the scope of what you'd like to discuss in relation to the film.

What exactly is your problem with it, and what would you like for us to cover here that hasn't been covered on 44s and Mike's blog?

Truth be told, there was another thread on this long ago and I could have merged yours into it but I thought perhaps this could be a fresh discussion. I'm sure you didn't intend to do this but the way you're coming off somewhat is "Who is against this film and therefore with the Asian man, and who is with this film and against the Asian man?"

I don't know how many people on here are that into dramas and the 'controversy' here is the focus of the Asian women's relationships with white males in the film. I'd venture a guess that people are burnt out on that topic. If that's what you'd like people to be up in arms about that might be why you hear the crickets chirping.

We do get Greg Pak, Eric Byler, Mike Kang here from time to time so it's possible [possible, I'm saying] that the focus here is maybe more support for the directors themselves. I don't know. Only they can answer that I suppose.

So Seraph, are you mainly PO'd about the AF/WM relationships? Or that there's any IRR in the film? For the sake of argument, let's say the membership here feels IRR has been covered up the wazoo. How would you like them to approach the topic to cover fresh ground?

It may help elicit more response by offering a point of discussion that hasn't been covered by the links and pages of previous discussion you provided.

SunWuKong

09-06-2006, 11:42 AM

here's the other thread:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=27963

Seraphfire

09-06-2006, 01:15 PM

i have to disagree with this. i doubt most filmmakers of any race enter the industry so they can further a social or political goal.
What are you disagreeing with? I agree with you that most filmmakers do not enter the industry so they can further a social or political goal. Take John Woo, Ang Lee, they just make films.

The difference here is these filmmakers called upon the AA community to support what they call an AA film. So in a sense, I am saying that by doing so these AA filmmakers have a greater burden placed on themselves. Not saying it's fair but it's not unreasonable for the AA community to ask what and why they are supporting a film.

kimpossible, I really have no problem with the content of the film, as SunWuKong said, it's nothing new or special and I feel there is no need to discuss IR (and haven't in any of my comments.)

I support AA filmmaking so maybe focus this thread on AA filmmakers and the expectations of the AA community. I think AA filmmakers should be able to ask for support from the AA community.

But should our support be blind? Per Jane Chen, "What we need is more stories. Period." And I think these AA filmmakers actually did expect blind support.

Since I don't make films, I'd rather see this as an opportunity to guide them. I've never said, "Don't see this film" but asked "Why?" Their responses to constructive criticism showed a real lack of market research or the true nature of the issues. Rather than seeing them make the same mistakes again, I'd rather help shape their next film. If they want to stick to stories they find interesting and true, good for them. But if they then want to ask for AA support, well, they better take other concerns into consideration. Other filmmakers do.

But does anyone else feel that way? From the responses I see on the blog, some say blind support, some crap on the film but a good many asked questions and gave feedback.

kimpossible

09-06-2006, 01:56 PM

Fair enough. I'll try to answer the question as directly as possible. I would just hate to see AA sites on the net being used to virtually run Georgia Lee out of town. And of course, that's not the most efficient use of our efforts and certainly not the impression you're going for.

I'm terrible at art. It doesn't matter the art form, I'm terrible on the creation and appreciation of it. I hate most dramas, especially relationship dramas. On the surface, a film like this wouldn't appeal to me.

Now that it's been brought to my attention again and I'm considering in new light, something Mike wrote affected the appeal of the film to me. I was previously not factoring in the concept of the director having something to say. I guess that says more about how I see most films -- entertainment value, a la jackass level humor or horror.

Ultimately, yeah, I think I do want to see it now and part of that is to show support for an AA director. I want to see what she has to say and how she says it. I also want to see Tzi Ma in what I hope is a role that has depth and showcases his acting talents. I also want to see, to a much smaller extent, if the interracial pairing has a point to it. I'm curious to see if it's used in the rebellion and cultural freedom cliche or if maybe she's going to show it as having a negative impact on the family structure.

I don't know if independent film makers are looking so strongly for community support because they have a vision and are looking to tell a story/create art. I feel that they would like support to open the door wider for more AA film makers and actors. To me, that means support for more opportunity and not necessarily undying support for their work specifically.

Seraphfire

09-06-2006, 03:04 PM

I don't know if independent film makers are looking so strongly for community support because they have a vision and are looking to tell a story/create art. I feel that they would like support to open the door wider for more AA film makers and actors. To me, that means support for more opportunity and not necessarily undying support for their work specifically.
Yep, we can't lynch the few AA filmmakers we have. We don't have the talent to do it ourselves so their success will be our success.

Your last comment touched on something. You're right, supporting AA film also means supporting AA actors. Especially the males who have so few roles.

The creators mentioned no Asian actors showed up at all for their final casting call. I commented that if they really wanted to support AAM actors, the casting call would not have been open but for AAMs only. I can only speculate that potential AAMs saw an open casting call for a romantic role and dismissed it as a waste of time like all the other romantic roles they've applied for in the past.

Mike commented that casting AAMs would have changed the storyline and I called him out on it (more harshly than needed I admit). It wasn't the IR issue that bothered me, it was the implication he made that AAMs couldn't act like regular guys. And that Asian males are sexualized by having children. Oh no, we AA's cannot be screwing ourselves with excuses like that.

If no young AAMs show up for a casting call that's a sign of a problem. Tell them to wait until you are middle aged to get a 'sexualized' acting role is a problem. These cannot be the messages are AA filmmakers are sending to young AAM actors. Otherwise we really won't have any more young AAM actors.

So I'd add that supporting AA filmmaking has to include supporting AA actresses and the role starved actors too. Call it affirmative action if you want but I think we need the whole package.

SunWuKong

09-06-2006, 03:37 PM

What are you disagreeing with? I agree with you that most filmmakers do not enter the industry so they can further a social or political goal. Take John Woo, Ang Lee, they just make films.

The difference here is these filmmakers called upon the AA community to support what they call an AA film. So in a sense, I am saying that by doing so these AA filmmakers have a greater burden placed on themselves. Not saying it's fair but it's not unreasonable for the AA community to ask what and why they are supporting a film.

well, are you trying to be the Voice of Asian America here? like i've said before, the community hardly all agrees on what they think of the movie. and there are probably going to be plenty of Asian Americans who will watch this movie.

so what else is wrong with the movie besides a cliché theme and white guys cast opposite of Asian women? stereotypes? racist portrayals? accents? etc etc? you have this vague idea of the community's "expectation", but what exactly is that expectation, if we're not talking about being against Long Duk Dong characters?

Martino

09-06-2006, 04:44 PM

This is not a film I've heard discussed by anyone. What's the background story to its production?

One Asian American film I have heard of (and was able to follow through pre-production and filming via a contact) is Fay Ann Lee's East Broadway. The film, featuring a huge ensemble cast of acting talent, is written and directed by an Asian American woman from her own original play, but the film itself was funded by a venture capital company, not by the community. Production was crippled by internal wrangling, and it remains virtally unseen despite being in the can for over a year - a fine incentive for further private investment in films which identify themselves as Asian American for mainstream audiences!

The original script was an 'WM/AF fairytale romance'(!); its first director wanted to make it into a serious investigation of these social issues, was fired, and the movie recut. It has still to find a distributor.

You can get a good feel as to whether AA film makers are working towards any kind of AA agenda here:

http://www.asianamericanfilm.com/index.html

Seraphfire

09-06-2006, 05:19 PM

If all we expect of AA filmmaking is to not have accents and Long Duk Dong, that's not much of an expectation and is practically indifference to what AA movies get made. Your message sounds like do no harm. Red Doors did no harm but also did no good which IMHO is the problem when they ask for AA support.

I do have a higher standard. I've stated what my expectations are for AA films, a balanced representation of Asian Americans. Stories like Red Doors who had the opportunity to do so should have if they want to tout it as an AA film. If they want to make a John Woo or Ang Lee type flick for general audiences then good for them, just don't whine about lack of AA support.

As for East Broadway, there are some insider discussions on IMDB. People speculate why B.D. Wong dropped out and asked to remove all his credits. I think the movie was basically financed by Faye Ann Lee's husband. It's her own Cinderella story of course but in a Big Fat Greek Wedding style theme of East meets West. Nothing special here either.

SunWuKong

09-06-2006, 05:44 PM

If all we expect of AA filmmaking is to not have accents and Long Duk Dong, that's not much of an expectation and is practically indifference to what AA movies get made. Your message sounds like do no harm. Red Doors did no harm but also did no good which IMHO is the problem when they ask for AA support.

I do have a higher standard. I've stated what my expectations are for AA films, a balanced representation of Asian Americans.

well, i would like them not to be boring either. that goes for any movies i want to watch though, Asian or not. but i don't require them to carry any social or political messages. if they can tell an interesting story without resorting to racist stereotypes and such, i would support it. i don't think that everything we do should have to further a social goal - though that would certainly be a plus.

so would you like to outline what your expectations are, of an Asian American movie? what is your idea of a "balanced representation" of Asian Americans, if it goes beyond stereotypes and Long Duk Dongs? and what is it about this movie that is so unbalanced?

Stories like Red Doors who had the opportunity to do so should have if they want to tout it as an AA film. If they want to make a John Woo or Ang Lee type flick for general audiences then good for them, just don't whine about lack of AA support.

so you're complaining that they whine about lack of AA support?

kimpossible

09-06-2006, 05:49 PM

Okay, so we've punched down into expectations and standards. I can understand that. But I am a teensy bit worried that those can turn into a force for censorship. Hear me out on this first before you think I'm a nut. You can think I'm a nut after.

Wouldn't we be holding an artist accountable to racial peers first rather than to both their vision and to the public at large? In a way it seems like limiting free speech or censoring art for someone based on their race because of circumstances beyond their control. I say this because A) a white director doesn't have to answer to racial peers first B) I *highly* doubt if this had been a male AA director constructing a story featuring an aging mother with her three sons who were in interracial relationships with white females there would have been nothing short of a ticker tape parade. Gender is part of who Georgia is just as being an Asian and American is.

And I know, I know, it all leads back to the imbalance of representation. I'd agree wholeheartedly that we have to examine how we're portrayed in the media but I must say it gives me pause for concern that we may end up unwittingly censoring an artist we [broadly speaking] share an ethnicity with because the mass media gives us the shit end of the stick more often than not.

I'd say that would be my biggest concern if we take it upon ourselves to decide who passes our muster and gets our support. As I see it it's a chicken or egg deal: which comes first? AA directors get our support first in order to work up to more exposure and opportunity, or we support them first and foremost to increase exposure and opportunity so we can get the kind of variety and balance needed in representation? If we're too hasty or draw too simple or strong a line in the sand could we be shooting ourselves in the foot?

Banana

09-06-2006, 07:52 PM

so you're complaining that they whine about lack of AA support?

Of course. If they're wrong.

Seraphfire

09-07-2006, 12:16 AM

kimpossible, I don't think it comes down to censorship at all. I think there is a difference between artists who just do whatever they want to do and asks for nothing in return and artists who premise their creative work as something a certain group would support.

In the former case, I really don't care. If an Asian artist wants to sculpt dung, so be it. In the latter case, if the creators premise this as an AA film, then as a member of the AA community I am affected by the portrayals they show since we are such a small community with little media representation so every little bit affects us. Plus their message is support AA film because AAs made it and they say they understand balanced representation issues (but don't). Now that's far different and the stakes, my interest in it are much higher so I feel it is reasonable to give them feedback/criticism. John Woo, Ang Lee films don't premise anything to the AA community so nothing asked for.

But I see it more of a matter of basic market research/PR and balancing that with an artist's aim of telling a story. Really not that different IMHO, filmmakers are trying to evoke emotions with their storytelling, a little audience awareness is required anyway in their trade.

Balanced representation of AAs is an expectation of mine and many others. I define it simply as fair representation of the diverse and contemporary Asian American individuals that make up our community.

Let's take a starting point where there were no Asians in film at all. Then the first portrayals were of native Asians and usually in a historical time period. Then maybe some documentaries of Asian Americans but of a historical nature. American movies show Asians as sexless martial artists, gangsters, Fu Manchu, the servient Lotus Blossom or Dragon Lady.

Then Joy Luck Club portrayed 4 contemporary AA women. Saving Face; contemporary AA lesbians, etc. Great something new, a first!

OK, now we have covered alot of ground. So what has been blatantly missing? -- Contemporary AA males in romantic roles (of any sort.) (OK sure, we have not seen an Asian transexual serial killer role yet but again I point out that to have fair reflection to the AA community it should reflect the individuals and at around 50% representation, Asian men have priority :wink: )

So balanced representation is only asking for a fair reflection of the individuals of the AA community. More Joy Luck Clubs, more Asian lesbians is really kind of unbalancing. (Sheesh, Red Doors makes 2x Asian lesbian portrayals) If somehow Asian men get romantic roles to the total exclusion of Asian women getting romantic roles well then I would ask for more roles for Asian women to balance it out. I don't see why this is an unreasonable expectation.

kimpossible

09-07-2006, 10:36 AM

Then I have to ask did you really want to ask us how we feel about it or did you only want to have your conclusion reflected? This is not to disagree with or reject anything you said above about balance... minor points aside I agree with you... but you do have to consider that some of us are willing to support directors and films from 'the community'.

From the credits of the films or shows I see there seems to be a decent presence of Asians in the film industry but precious few who are willing to take their knowledge and effort to produce stories about us [so to speak]. Do the ones that make the decision to bypass the solid work on mainstream films or shows and climb the uphill battle to get more Asian faces and stories on film deserve absolutely no support because they are not telling the exact story we'd like to see? I'm not as sure about that as you are.

Somewhat related but more of an observation -- are there more Asian women directing? Maybe it's just in the indie film world. Dunno.

If anyone else wants to take up the counterpoint for me here, feel free. Can't maintain timely response anymore.

Seraphfire

09-07-2006, 11:14 AM

lycheng

09-07-2006, 11:43 AM

Hi Seraphfire, I just found your thread here in Yellowworld, and I thought I'd respond to some of your comments, even though I've posted my views on the thefighting44's. Although I disagree with some of your points, I think we're coming from the same place: we oppose movies that marginalize Asian American men.

Giving support is not the same as indifference and not the same as detracting. I'll be indifferent to many films, I have not detracted Red Doors but neither do I give it support.

While I agree that AA filmmakers shouldn't expect AA audiences to support their film just because they are AA themselves, I don't think the act of asking the AA community for support merited some of the responses they've received. After all, they are just doing what all filmmakers do: promote the film.

I would even go as far to say that framing the issue in the context of "they shouldn't expect support", leads only to defensiveness and poorly reasoned excuses from them. That's because there is an underlying accusation of betrayal implied by that framework.

I don't know about you, but I hate it when other Asian Americans imply that I've betrayed my community. I wouldn't hesitate to defend myself if I sense that someone has made that accusation.

I can understand why you give support to Red Doors, I only ask for the same understanding when I offer only indifference. Remember, the Red Doors creators had their hands out first in asking for support and their indignity at not receiving it is what provoked these discussions.

I respect the indifference approach too. But I'm sort of confused between the semantics of your argument. Is saying that I respect all AA filmmaker's who are willing to put their butt (and money) on the line to make films, but I reserve the right to disagree with the actual content of the film as sign of indifference or support? By respect, I mean refrain from personal attacks and give the filmmakers the benefit of the doubt that they understand the AA cause.

I'm not implying that you've done those nasty things, but many have. And that kind of "discussion" just turns me off.

lycheng

Seraphfire

09-07-2006, 12:10 PM

Well, I haven't said any nasty things and I also get turned off by those that do because it detracts from a valid discussion. I just ignored those other posters and silence does not equal supporting those detractors. Personally, I think I went the extra step of asking the filmmakers to explain their stance on the issues. Thanks to Michael Kang for his replies to my questions.

As you can guess, I was quite surprised by their explanations and found their defense rather lacking. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to conclude that they really didn't understand the issues. But as I said, I formed that conclusion after asking them for clarification and did not prejudge them.

SunWuKong

09-07-2006, 12:13 PM

I don't understand why there is a semi "hostile" tone here. Does my posting on other forums you dislike "stereotype" me in your eyes? How is this discussion different from any other on YW? Seems like the same give and take to me but I sense only begrudging acceptance of points I made. I believe SunWuKong and you asked for many many explanations and I obliged.

Giving support is not the same as indifference and not the same as detracting. I'll be indifferent to many films, I have not detracted Red Doors but neither do I give it support. I can understand why you give support to Red Doors, I only ask for the same understanding when I offer only indifference. Remember, the Red Doors creators had their hands out first in asking for support and their indignity at not receiving it is what provoked these discussions.

I do proffer the suggestion that Red Doors missed a great opportunity though.

i'll admit that some of what you've said doesn't particularly sit well with me. firstly you claim that they haven't met the expectation of the AA community, but from reading about the premise of the film, the only thing that's "wrong" with it is that white men are cast opposite of Asian women, and that it's some "rebel against tradition" theme. it almost seemed like you were trying to speak for the entire Asian American community in saying that these two reasons alone fail the entire community's expectations. but i think that's too far-fetched a claim.

secondly, we're still talking about an Asian American filmmaker doing a small-budget film. did she really have trouble casting Asian men in those roles? does she deserve criticism for doing a small budget film, saying she had trouble casting Asian men, and then asking for the community's support? my personal opinion is no, she doesn't deserve the criticism for that. i'll probably not watch the film, but i don't think it deserves us going around the internet complaining the mere fact that she dared ask for our support.

kimpossible

09-07-2006, 12:54 PM

I don't understand why there is a semi "hostile" tone here.

From me? I'm very direct at times. I can summarize my perspective for you and you can decide for yourself if I'm hostile.

You've covered this exact subject on other places around the web and found that to be unsatisfactory. You provided pages of very detailed conversation about Red Doors specifically. This was the second thread on Red Doors and you wanted more reponse... though I think you put it not too nicely about the members here and assumed that there was no previous reaction to it when you could have searched for previous convo rather than assumed a negative character trait. Small beef as a mod but no real biggie.

I took counterpoint to encourage traffic and response to this new thread about Red Doors/AA directors. My personal opinion is that it's a good topic, good for debate and wished more people had responded for a more round table approach instead of just you and me. And SWK.

Although I've genuinely enjoyed the convo with you (it's a welcome break to speak "adult" once in a while instead of baby babble) I'm at a point where I don't feel I'm making a dent and you made up your mind before you came here. We don't disagree on much when it comes to representation but I feel differently about lending support. Mine isn't as conditional.

And really, I don't feel you'll accept the difference of opinion no matter what I say. Furthermore, as a mod here on a site that has film makers, known and unknown, I want to officially show support for their efforts. I'm sure you can understand that.

But I am at a point where I will welcome that we're simply not going to agree on the matter of support. So, yes, I am questioning now if you really wanted to hear what others thought, even if they felt differently from you, or if you wanted affirmation. It's not an unfair question. It might be an unfair judgment on my part.

Giving support is not the same as indifference and not the same as detracting. I'll be indifferent to many films, I have not detracted Red Doors but neither do I give it support. I can understand why you give support to Red Doors, I only ask for the same understanding when I offer only indifference. Remember, the Red Doors creators had their hands out first in asking for support and their indignity at not receiving it is what provoked these discussions.

Oh. I'm not so much in support of this particular movie as I am at least trying to say that, yes, I do think we need to be more supportive of the artist if we don't support their art.

Seraphfire

09-07-2006, 01:50 PM

SunWuKong, it's wrong to say I am against white men cast opposite Asian women, that's inaccurate because they could have been black, Hispanic or purple and so you seem to think I am against IR which I am not and never have been. The fact is I was unhappy that once again the opportunity to cast contemporary AA men was missed and another AA film did not address unbalanced representation. And I was unhappy with the reasoning proffered. I think you will agree that that's a key difference when it comes to AA discussions.

kimpossible, I posted here on YW to gain other opinions. (The other post was on a Red Doors TV series, seemed off topic). Of course I had to post my opinion as people asked here. I tried to be articulate and that's not the same as saying my opinions were set in stone. If it was, why did I ask Michael for clarification? Posting here on YW is only asking for more opinions on Michael's answers since I am not a filmmaker and he said he understood AA issues so my prespective could be wrong. So far, few have commented on Michael's answers but they seem to match my interpretation.

Heck, I learned something about AA filmmakers and I learned from your opinions here. Frankly, I don't think I disagreed on anything you said other than offering a different perspective on your censorship issue. Isn't that a give and take discussion?

And I think we agree that this is really a good topic to discuss AA filmmaking. It would be great to have people discuss what went wrong, what went right and how to make the next film. That's the important point and we both offered opinions on it. More would be even better.

lycheng

09-07-2006, 01:56 PM

As you can guess, I was quite surprised by their explanations and found their defense rather lacking. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to conclude that they really didn't understand the issues. But as I said, I formed that conclusion after asking them for clarification and did not prejudge them.

Given Mike Kang's remark about the father having three daughters is also a sexualized portrayal; I can see how you can see that as a dumb excuse. But, if you read the numerous other posts that Mike made in his blog, you would be equally as foolish to think he doesn't understand AA male issues.

My point is that, the controversy started because someone decided to characterize Red Doors as another Joy Luck Club movie (read: anti-Asian male, pro-white agenda movie). To some AA men, this was enough to start a fight. For some people, once battle lines are drawn, it's hard to back off. If you do back off, people will think you’re just another passive Asian male.

Seraph, I'm not trying to dump on you because I know you believe in constructive debate. I do think you drew the battle lines too early. The sad part is that an important debate has been reduced to simple minded political posturing.

lycheng

Furthermore, as a mod here on a site that has film makers, known and unknown, I want to officially show support for their efforts. I'm sure you can understand that.

I think this is an important point, Kimpossible. The problem is that supporting AA filmmakers for the amount of effort it takes to get a film made gets twisted into how they are demanding unconditional support for their work.

lycheng

SunWuKong

09-07-2006, 02:12 PM

I think this is an important point, Kimpossible. The problem is that supporting AA filmmakers for the amount of effort it takes to get a film made gets twisted into how they are demanding unconditional support for their work.

if Tom Cruise goes around asking for Asian American support for Last Samurai, i'd laugh my ass to the next AA website. but Red Doors is such an entirely different situation. i may not like the premise of the film, but i feel little need to shit on a request for support from the community.

Banana

09-08-2006, 02:41 PM

Well, I think people are shitting on it because of way they're trying to garner support. They've touted this movie as being diverse but it obviously isn't.

Also, the definition on what should be supported or not is pretty ambiguous. You might not support Hollywood features but choose to do so with Asian American film. That's fine. However, others might not see it that way and fine tune it some more by cutting out Asian American films that aren't beneficial to the community as a whole.

Personally, I'm saddened by the fact that their excuses have lots of holes in them and that as three educated women from Harvard, they should know better.

Martino

09-08-2006, 03:22 PM

Not just the features, but what about all the creatives who have to come together to make an AA movie? There's an Asian American Actors sticky thread - how about broadening it into an Asian American Filmmakers thread? Not just actors and directors, but also those guys without whom you can't have a film: screen writers, animators, producers ... who's out there and what are they doing? Who's good, who's bad etc. Who are the contemporary Gedde Watanabes?

Sadly, too many come to my attention for the wrong reason. Guys like the late Dan Lee, virtually unknown but for the fact that he died young:

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=21713&highlight=finding+nemo

Career stuntman Stuart Quan died just this year, aged just 38 ...

http://imdb.com/name/nm0702850/

... but there's still so much talent out there. Claire Yorita, writer and producer of the move My Life ... Disorientated:

http://www.mylifedisoriented.com/crew/claireyoritalee.shtml

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0818611/

returntosender

09-08-2006, 04:42 PM

Shuriken

09-08-2006, 05:23 PM

I’ve been asked if I want to weigh in on this controversy. I’m not as good at expressing myself as I used to be, but here goes.

From YW Working Definitions:

The ‘Ms. Butterfly' Syndrome’:

An Asian American woman liberates herself from Asian patriarchy by “liberating” herself from Asian men and into the arms of a more understanding, more considerate, more desirable white man. E.g.: The Joy Luck Club, Double Happiness, Red Doors.

This thread seems to be asking: Which should take precedence, an individual artistic work, or an artistic work in an overall social context?

I get the feeling that what draws us to discussion boards like YellowWorld in the first place is that we feel Asian Americans are underrepresented — and when represented at all, often misrepresented — in the mainstream media. If such were not the case, I daresay that traffic on these discussion boards would be a mere trickle.

While there has been some uptick in the media representation of Asian Americans since the early 1990s, what representation there has been has usually favored Asian American women, Asian American homosexuals, or Asian American martial artists whose humanity is barely explored. In other words, severely underrepresented are Asian American men as viable romantic possibilities for women of any race. And this feeds an apparent public perception (although how widespread, I don’t know) that what’s true about Asian American men in the media goes the same for Asian American men in the big, wide world.

Now that we’ve had media works like M. Butterfly, The Wedding Banquet, The Joy Luck Club, Double Happiness, Mail-Order Wife, Face (where the heroine’s deadbeat Asian American dad was a rapist), and Saving Face, so many other aspects of Asian life in America have been adequately dramatized. It seems to me that the issue of Asian American “emasculation” — or, conversely, the vilification of Asian male heterosexuality — by the larger society is one that is difficult for the APA community to ignore. Consequently, when an Asian American makes a film that purports to provide a “peek” into the community, and the film simply takes the absence of romantic APA men as a given, I get the idea that the filmmaker is willfully turning a blind eye to a conspicuous reality.

Now, this isn’t to say that some films featuring WM/AF haven’t been good in and of themselves. If you can forget about the absence/vilification of heterosexual Asian men, The Joy Luck Club and Double Happiness are very well done. I suspect that the same might be true of Red Doors. This also isn’t to say that romantic Asian American leading men can’t be found at all in Hollywood: you can find them in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story and the TV series Vanishing Son — both by producer-director Rob Cohen (who turned around and made the anti-Asian The Fast and the Furious).

However, there’s one issue that I haven’t seen adequately addressed on this thread: Why projects marginalizing romantic Asian men have a higher visibility than those that don’t. I submit that it’s because the coffers of the entertainment industry are controlled by white men who either (1) are uncomfortable seeing Asian men romancing women, (2) think that there isn’t enough of an audience to support romantic Asian leading men, or (3) both. The Joy Luck Club and Charlie’s Angels were financed by major studios. Saving Face also had some major money behind it. By contrast, Shopping for Fangs was self-distributed, while Hundred Percent never found a distributor at all. How many other self-produced films with romantic Asian American leading men are out there, but they never found a distributor because the big-name companies didn’t think a large-enough audience would go for a character like that? These are probably the same big-name companies who would have no problem with an Asian American female lead romantically linked to a white guy.

I would like to echo something said by earlier posters: We shouldn’t support a film just because Asian American actors are in it — as some APAers have said about Rising Sun and The Fast and the Furious. If we support these kinds of films for this reason, that’s all Hollywood is going to give us. Similarly, if an Asian American filmmaker’s latest work proclaims itself to be an “authentic” look inside the APA community — but marginalizes romantic Asian American men just like any regular multiplex movie would — we owe it to the rest of the viewing public to ask if this is true “authenticity” or a cozying up to Hollywood.

buttermilkwise

09-08-2006, 05:43 PM

In my opinion this film is legitimate, as per story is true and to put in asian men would actually do injustice because it would make a true story false.

But just because I find it okay, doesn't mean I want to see it. There are plenty of films involving exposure with Asian american men as lead roles, "Americanese", "Japanese Story". IMO the solution isn't to degrade and criticise another person's work if you don't support it, if you want to proper representation then push for more films with APA men.

kimpossible

09-08-2006, 06:44 PM

lycheng

09-08-2006, 07:01 PM

I think Shuriken did a fine analysis. I would like to add a few points.

I would like to echo something said by earlier posters: We shouldn’t support a film just because Asian American actors are in it — as some APAers have said about Rising Sun and The Fast and the Furious. If we support these kinds of films for this reason, that’s all Hollywood is going to give us. Similarly, if an Asian American filmmaker’s latest work proclaims itself to be an “authentic” look inside the APA community — but marginalizes romantic Asian American men just like any regular multiplex movie would — we owe it to the rest of the viewing public to ask if this is true “authenticity” or a cozying up to Hollywood.

While it is certainly fair to question a film's authenticity, the real question at hand is the standards by which you judge authenticity.

Red Doors is made by AA female, so I would her film to be from a female perspective. From what I've read (I have yet to see the film), it is indeed told from that perspective. Furthermore, the plot apparently centers on the struggle between a parent's traditional views versus a child's rebelliousness. In my view, this is also a significant AA experience. Therefore, one can make a good case that Red Doors represents an authentic AA experience. It might be an over-used story, but no one should deny that it's authentic.

However, if you believe gender representation is an important part of an ethnic authenticity, then it appears that Red Doors fails because it plays into the male patriarchy stereotype, and fails to balance that with a positive male portrayal.

I emphasized appears because I haven't seen the movie, which is another critical element in the Red Doors debate, here and elsewhere. People are debating this movie based on a press release-like synopsis and not on actually seeing the movie! Based on Michael Kang's blog, the portrayals are actually more nuanced than what's described in the advertising literature.

It's quite sad really to see how quickly battle lines are drawn based on limited information.

lycheng

Banana

09-08-2006, 09:52 PM

This is what I don't think you're getting, Lycheng.

It's the image. Just the onscreen image of yet another Asian woman with a white male. There is no other reason other than the fact this pair exists in yet another movie. It has nothing to do with the story at all.

To be honest, while this sounds shallow, image is extremely important and it shouldn't ever be discounted. The whole point of whether or not it is a good story is moot.

SunWuKong

09-08-2006, 10:34 PM

The whole point of whether or not it is a good story is moot.

that's... really not how a lot of filmmakers and movie-goers think.

returntosender

09-09-2006, 01:55 AM

if Tom Cruise goes around asking for Asian American support for Last Samurai, i'd laugh my ass to the next AA website. but Red Doors is such an entirely different situation. i may not like the premise of the film, but i feel little need to shit on a request for support from the community.

would you laugh because it's a request from tom cruise, or because it's for the last samurai? honestly, i think that movie did a lot more to encourage positive asian male images in hollywood. I don't think that if he [Ken Watanabe]had not stolen the spotlight from tom cruise, that hollywood would sign him to come back for future projects or be given exposure such as for the american express advertisement. So, in that regard, even with the laughable plot, i consider last samurai to be more progressive, in terms of opening doors for asian males in hollywood, than red doors ever could. but red doors = aa indie project, and last samurai = big hollywood blockbuster. fine. but you made the comparison.

red doors is just a different issue. It's not just an 'An' issue, there are just too many things and degrees to hit this topic with. Things not having to do with the creative nature of the project, things that are beyond what georgia lee could control-sort of. As we're aware, asian american males lack representation. Nothing new. But that isn't for lack of trying. There are aa guys who would have loved to be in this movie. I bet some would even do it just for the experience. We've all heard stories about these guys who are trying to break into the industry but are facing severe discrimination from hollywood. To me, if aa guys can't find an opportunity from an aa community project like red doors then i think aa guys everywhere should just throw in the towel.
To be fair to Georgia, her excuse was that 1. lee hom wang and leonardo nam were signed to play the parts that eventually went to white guys, but they pulled out in the last minute and 2. one of the roles specifically called for someone who could play the guitar and sing and there wasn't enough allowance to look for an aa guy whol could do both of these. okay. fair enough. I guess georgia lee did try to include asian males in the movie but things went beyond her control and she had to use alternates who just happened to be white. I'm not going to make race an issue if it's not suppose to be an issue in the movie.

I want to digress a bit and mention that despite what the fighting44 guys are saying, I don't think red doors is in fact a joy luck club 2. The reason being that it seemed amy tan intentionally tried to vilify asian men in joy luck club, painting asian men as domineering abusive partners. the male characters in red doors aren't portrayed in the same negative way they are in joy luck club. i think they're just supporting characters used to tell why the daughters turned out the way they did. Essentially, the story is about the daughters and their journey to fulfillment-i don't honestly think georgia lee made an intentional action of making the males(roles that were suppose to go to asian leads)as losers who dissatisfied their female counterparts into lesbianism and alienation as the synopsis tells. So, the roles could have gone to anyone of any race without changing the plot much. Still, I think the fighting44 and I as well, are disappointed that more effort couldn't be used to bring in some no names from the aa community to play the males if for no other reason then to give them experience and exposure both to receive as the audience and to display as the actors.

now this is where things began to go awry. when this controversy started, mike kang wrote on his xanga wrote that georgia lee deliberately wrote the three male characters as caucasian males because that is the background from which she came-spinning some yarn about how the integrity of the creator had to remain intact, regardless of what criticism might come from the community. Then, one of the producers of Red Doors, JaneC, wrote into the Fighting44, dispelling that myth by admitting that asian male leads were intended for 2 of the 3 male roles. So, did Mike Kang lie or did Jane C. lie? Someone lied. As you can see, the integrity of georgia's camp was thrown into disrepute. They seemed more eager garner sponsorship(money) from the aa community then they were of truthfully answering some 'harsh' but fair questions. At the time I was just an observer to what was unfolding, but I certainly had to roll my eyes at what was developing from jane C and Mike Kang. Someone had asked Georgia Lee directly why she didn't cast any asian male in the roles, and she purposely sidestepped the question. It was one disappointment after the next.

Now, the big question-and I think the one that lycheng, kim, and suwonkong was getting at is can we appreciate red doors on it's own merits? Can we throw our backing, as a community, behind this project? My answer is yes and no.

Yes.

Despite the drama unfolding behind the scene, the movie is made, it's being released very soon, it's won some awards, so someone important obviously think it has artistic merits that is worthy of being shared to the larger public. So is the movie another joy luck club or an eat drink man woman, or a saving face? Well, was Hero just another Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? Movie plots and themes overlap, it is very likely that the next movie you see at the theatre has some familiarity to something that was created before. Red Doors can be like Eat Drink Man Woman but still be fresh because it's from a different director with a fresh cast and exactly similar story. It is a project. It is art. It has one prizes, and like I alluded, it's probably worthy of a viewing.

No.

As an Asian male, I can't throw my support behind it. I appreciate art, having been an aspring artist in the past, and I applaud Georgia for trying to express herself. But I don't feel that Red Doors can nourish the curious cat in me enough to make me want to pay to see it-regardless if she was asian or not. I'm not going to lie, part of it definitely has to do with the fact that it's yet another movie with WM/AF(THREE!!)couples, but it also has to do with the politics behind the camera as well. Having known what happened about the hiring, or lack thereof, of asian males, the plot, and the dishonesty of mike kang/jane c. I simply cannot support this movie just because it is expected of me as an asian. Having waited 25 years to see an image of myself not as the punchline or villain on the silverscreen, and having to settle for one of the best as yet representation of a real modern asian male being created from a couple of white guys (harold and kumar) instead of someone from our very own community, i can't help but feel just a little betrayed. Every movie, if it is to be social and political empowerment with the intention of garnering aa support, should be held to high standard. I understand that in movies, one needs to think about all sorts of things like the integrity of the project, the budget, unexpected situations, and just a plethora of other things-but movies, intentionally or as a result of overlapping factors, should not make me feel like I don't exist. I have the rest of the world to do that for me. For the majority of us asian males, I think it's for a very selfish reason that we don't want to throw our support behind this movie. But in this time and age, I think we have every right to be selfish.

Open to criticism, yes, of course. Barring a story from ever reaching the public, a bit harsh. Who within the community gets to decide what should and shouldn't be made and which of our stories are legitimate?

My Asian ancestry and the ancestry of my extended family lies in GI's, their warbrides and the struggle they faced to become legally married and make a family together. I have no background in film or journalism but I sometimes consider what it would be like to make a documentary about families like mine. I also consider myself and my family part of the greater Asian American community. Our family story and the stories of families like ours are one of the stories within the community.

Should I just tape a bullseye to my rear if it were made? Should I be discouraged and shamed into not presenting the material because mainstream media favors an Asian woman paired with a white male? Or do I get a one time pass because my personal life isn't so 'sellout' where I'm one of the redeemed hapas because I have an Asian husband? Would you place the same standards on mixed Asians with non-white fathers? Or families with the father as the Asian parent?

Absolutely no offense to the men but I wish more ladies would respond to this as well. I noticed I'm the only source of estrogen here. Really good debate though.

Kim, i respect your voice as yw. unofficial matriarch, but i have to disagree with you on this one. While war brides, mail order brides, and prostitution have been used to stigmatize asian females who become the partners of white males-there is absolutely ZERO danger that she become neglected from society. Asian females image, stories, accomplishments will proliferate for the forseable future. The only way asian females get stripped of their priviledged status in society is if they collectively renounce it. And I don't see that happening. Truthfully, if those movies were to be made, I don't think they would cause a dent in AA female image. For sure those stories are very interesting, and I even see some of those as possible future projects. Right now, you can't compare movies with asian females and movie with asian males because regardless of what projects asian females are involved with, whether it stinks or it causes the producers to lose money, asian females will never ever have to worry about their image being tarnished or where their next acting job will come from. Not so the case with Asian males.

If I have to see 100 movies where the white guy ends up with the asian girl just to see one positive asian male role, i'll do it. It's not like I have a choice. But if I have to see the same 100 movies, and then in addition to seeing a movie like red doors-with it's roots and supposed glimpse into the asian community-and still see the white guy end up with the girl-then no. I will not do that. I am 25, I have nephews and male cousins who I want to be treated more humanely than what I've experienced and Red Door is not helping me head in that direction.

Georgia Lee may not have to answer to me, but in asking for my money just because I am Asian I expect to see something worth my 10 dollars.

buttermilkwise

09-09-2006, 02:57 AM

Open to criticism, yes, of course. Barring a story from ever reaching the public, a bit harsh. Who within the community gets to decide what should and shouldn't be made and which of our stories are legitimate?

No one actually, which is why the film is being made and marketed, and on top of that has actually a few film awards.

Um... yeah, what was the problem again?

My Asian ancestry and the ancestry of my extended family lies in GI's, their warbrides and the struggle they faced to become legally married and make a family together. I have no background in film or journalism but I sometimes consider what it would be like to make a documentary about families like mine. I also consider myself and my family part of the greater Asian American community. Our family story and the stories of families like ours are one of the stories within the community.

yes and I'm pretty sure it would make for an interesting and unique story if it were made.

The problems lies as shurikan pointed out in his post, in the racial politics of the mainstream media and how this affects minority representation.

A film like this may not need as much support simply because it can stand on it's own and imo can get backing much more easily from a white-male dominated society. I don't really consider it as big of a splash as compared to say Harold and Kumar, alot of people even the white-male scriptwriters had to fight really hard to get that movie made.

returntosender

09-09-2006, 02:59 AM

Would you laugh because it's a request from Tom Cruise, or because it's for the Last Samurai? Honestly I think that that movie did a lot more to encourage positive Asian male images in Hollywood. I don't think that if he [Ken Watanabe]had not stolen the spotlight from Tom Cruise, that Hollywood would sign him to come back for future projects or be given exposure such as for the American Express advertisement. So, in that regard, even with the laughable plot, I consider last samurai to be more progressive, in terms of opening doors for Asian males in Hollywood, than Red Doors ever could.

Red Doors is just a different issue. It's not just 'an' issue, there are just too many things and degrees to hit this topic with. Things not having to do with the creative nature of the project, things that are beyond what Georgia Lee could control. As we are aware, Asian American males lack representation. Nothing new. But that isn't for lack of trying. There are AA guys who would have loved to be in this movie. I bet some would even do it just for the experience. We've all heard stories about these guys who are trying to break into the industry but are facing severe discrimination from Hollywood.

To me, if AA guys can't find an opportunity from an AA community project like red doors then i think it is time they throw in the towel. What is the point? What better way to show that there is absolute zero cohesiveness?

Then what is our community?

To be fair to Georgia her excuse was that [1.] Lee Hom Wang and Leonardo Nam were signed to play the parts that eventually went to white guys but they pulled out in the last minute and [2.] one of the roles specifically called for someone who could play the guitar and sing and there wasn't enough time allowance to look for an AA guy who could do
both of these. Okay. Fair enough.

I guess Georgia tried and to include Asian males in the movie but things went beyond her control and she had to use alternates who just happened to be white. I'm not going to make race an issue if it's not suppose to be an issue in the movie.

But I want to digress a bit and mention that despite what the Fighting44 guys are saying, I don't think Red Doors is in fact a Joy Luck Club 2. The reason being that it seemed Amy Tan intentionally tried to vilify Asian men in JLC, painting Asian men as domineering abusive partners. Whereas the male characters in Red Doors aren't portrayed in the same negative way they are in joy luck club. I think they're just supporting characters used to tell why the daughters turned out the way they did.

Essentially, the story is about the daughters and their journeys to fulfillment-I don't honestly think she made an intentional act of making the males(roles that were suppose to go to Asian leads)as losers who dissatisfied their female counterparts into lesbianism
and alienation as the synopsis tells. So, the roles could have gone to anyone of any race without changing the plot much. Still, I think the Fighting44 and I as well, are disappointed that more effort couldn't be used to bring in some no names from the AA community to play the males if for no other reason then to give them experience and exposure both to receive as the audience and to display as the actors.

Now this is where things began to go awry. When this controversy erupted, Mike Kang wrote on his Xanga that she deliberately wrote the three male characters as caucasian males because that is the background from which she came.

He spinned some yarn about how the integrity of the creator had to remain intact, regardless of what criticism might come from the community. Then, one of the producers of Red Doors, Jane C, wrote into the Fighting44, dispelling that myth by admitting that Asian male leads were intended for 2 of the 3 male roles.

Someone lied. Did Mike Kang lie or did Jane C. lie? As you can see, the integrity of Georgia's camp was thrown into disrepute. They seemed more eager to garner sponsorship(money) from the AA community thAn they were of truthfully
answering some 'harsh' but fair questions. At the time I was just an observer to what was unfolding, but I certainly had to roll my eyes at the suspect explanations. And, at another point in time, someone had asked Georgia directly why she
didn't cast any Asian male in the roles, and she purposely sidestepped the question. It was one disappointment after the next.

Now, the big question. I think the one that lycheng, Kim, and SunWuKong were getting at is:

"Can we appreciate red doors on it's own merits? Can we throw our backing, as a community, behind this project?" My answer is yes and no.

Yes.

Despite the drama unfolding behind the scene, the movie was made, it's being released very soon, and it's won some awards. Someone important obviously think it has artistic merits that is worthy of being shared to the larger public. So is the movie another Joy Luck Club or an Eat Drink, Man Woman? Well, was Hero just another Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon? Movie plots and themes overlap, it is very likely that the next movie you see at the theatre has some familiarity to something that you have watched before. Red Doors can be like Eat Drink, Man Woman but still be fresh because it's from a different director with a fresh cast and not-exactly similar story. It is a project. It is art. It has won prizes, and like I alluded, it's probably worthy of a viewing.

No.

As an Asian male, I can't throw my support behind it. I appreciate art, having been an aspring artist in the past, and I applaud Georgia for trying to express herself. But I don't feel that Red Doors can nourish the curious cat in me enough to make me want to pay to see it. I am not going to lie, part of it definitely has to do with the fact that it's yet another movie with WM/AF(THREE!!)couples, but it also has to do with the politics behind the camera as well. Having known what happened about the hiring, or lack thereof, of Asian males, the plot, and the constant back peddling. I simply cannot support this movie just because that is expected of me as an Asian. [Hey, I had expectations of an AA movie as well that were not met] Having waited 25 years to see an image of myself not as the punchline or villain on the silverscreen, and having to settle for one of the best as yet representation of a real modern Asian male created from a couple of white guys (Harold and Kumar) instead of someone from our very own community, I can't help but feel just a little betrayed. Every movie, if it is to be social and political empowerment with the intention of garnering AA support, should be held to higher standard. I understand that in movies, one needs to think about all sorts of things like the integrity of the project, the budget, unexpected situations, and just a plethora of other things-but movies, intentionally or as a result of overlapping factors, should not make me feel like I don't exist. I have the rest of the world to do that for me. For the majority of us Asian males, I think it's for a very selfish reason that we don't want to throw our support behind this movie. But in this time and age, I think we have every right to be selfish.

Sadly, I don't think the vocalization of Asian males will reverse any perceived negative patterns we are now seeing within our community. We can yell, kick and scream, but I don't that we will be heard. Movies like Red Doors, while being technically sound and imbued with whatever subjective artistic merit, will still proliferate. That is the way it
usually is. Those with the power get to tell their story.

sorry about the syntax and stuff, i'm not a natural writer so it an get very choppy.

haplesshobo

09-09-2006, 04:03 AM

again, personally i don't know the exact details of what happened with the casting. if this was a multi-million dollar Hollywood project, yeah, there's no way i'd believe she can't get good Asian male actors for the roles. but that's hardly the case here.

I really find that hard to believe that they couldn't find any asian american male actors for the roles.

Its not like asian american males are so inudated with film roles that they ignored this role in favor of the big money hollywood roles. I know several actors, and if there's an audition, they'll go for it. Even if its a small, indepedent film, they'll want the part just for the exposure and for their porfolio. If the producers were really serious about finding an asian actor, they would have found one.

And, besides, even such small, independt films have attracted asian american actors in those roles. My friend's brother directed a small movie, and Dante Basco starred in it. Even hollywood or bigger asian american actors would go for a role in a smaller, indepedent film if it meant they were given a meaningful role that allowed them to showcase their acting abilities otherwise denied to them by Hollywood where they played Chinese Waiter #1.

lycheng

09-09-2006, 11:38 AM

I really find that hard to believe that they couldn't find any asian american male actors for the roles.

Its not like asian american males are so inudated with film roles that they ignored this role in favor of the big money hollywood roles. I know several actors, and if there's an audition, they'll go for it. Even if its a small, indepedent film, they'll want the part just for the exposure and for their porfolio. If the producers were really serious about finding an asian actor, they would have found one.

That was exactly my reaction when I found out about the film. I felt like they didn’t try hard enough, and because of that, they had no interest in casting Asian males.

However, one of the producers of the film, Janc, posted an explanation on thefighting44's [edit: I wasn't allowed to link to the thread because I have less than 15 posts, but trust me it's burried in page 4 of the Red Doors thread.]

First of all, there is no conspiracy to put down the Asian man or any intention on our part to cater to "white folks." In fact, the "white folks" that we should be catering to (the distribution companies and studios) told us flat out that they weren't interested in ANY Asian-American films because Asian-Americans don't support their own cinema the way African-Americans and Hispanic-Americans do. That's why we made the film independently.

We have no racist or sexist agenda. We just suffered the same unfortunate mishaps that always plague indie films when there is no time, no money, and little flexibility. We had originally cast Asian-American males in two of the love interest roles:

Lee-Hom Wang, a Taiwanese pop star, was cast as Alex (the singer-songwriter ex-boyfriend of the oldest sister) but had to drop out one week before his scheduled first scene because Sony needed him back in Asia to finish his new album.

Leonardo Nam, who starred in one of Georgia's short films, was cast as Simon (the youngest sister's nemesis/flirtation) but dropped out because he was offered - and took - a role in SISTERHOOD OF THE TRAVELING PANTS. He dropped out 3 days before his first scene.

We sent out casting calls through the usual trade publications and through our casting director (who also cast Michael Kang's THE MOTEL and is casting Michael's current Korean-American feature) for both roles when the original actors dropped out. No Asian-American actors showed up at the auditions.

In hindsight, did we do everything under the sun to ensure that Asian-American males would be "properly" represented in our film? Probably not. But you know, we were first-time filmmakers making a film for $200,000. We had already hired our crew, rented equipment, and reserved locations. We didn't have the luxury to stop production and cherry-pick our actors. The sad truth is that if it weren't for a quirk of scheduling, you wouldn't be so angry right now.

But I understand. We only get credit (and damned) for what ends up on screen. And what ended up on screen is three white boys. If we could go back and do it over, we would have reached out more to the Asian acting community. We would have tried to raise more money too. We also would have shot more coverage of the NY skyline. Hindsight is 20/20.

Perhaps you don't care, but the oldest sister doesn't end up with either white boy. She rejects them both in the film. The middle sister is a lesbian so she rejects all men. And the youngest daughter? She spends the whole movie trying to blow up her white boy and at the end they make peace. That's it. They don't kiss. They don't even hold hands. If the original casting had held up, I wonder if you would be blasting us for not giving any of the guys any play.

So the question is, do you give them the benefit of the doubt and believe her? Or do you think they are being disingenuous. I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her.

As an aside, she also posted the following as a preface to her post.

Let me introduce myself. I am one of the producers on this film. I am a Chinese-American woman. I am happily married to a Chinese-American man. I'm not posting here to refute the negativity against our film on this thread but to clear up some misconceptions. Those of you inclined to hate the film probably still will at the end of my post but at least you can hate us with all the facts in place. I see that my posting on another site has already been excerpted on this thread so I'll try not to be redundant... although I will restate the facts because they are important.

I’ve bolded the statement that I found quite interesting. Here is an AA woman who came on a rather hostile environment to explain her movie. The first thing she had to do was tell us that she married a Chinese-American man.

Think about that. In order for a Chinese-American woman to defend her movie from attack on an AA internet forum, the first thing she had to do was to tell us about her marriage. It’s like her opinion as an Asian American woman is somehow invalidated if she married a White guy! How sad!

lycheng

SunWuKong

09-09-2006, 12:40 PM

would you laugh because it's a request from tom cruise, or because it's for the last samurai? honestly, i think that movie did a lot more to encourage positive asian male images in hollywood. I don't think that if he [Ken Watanabe]had not stolen the spotlight from tom cruise, that hollywood would sign him to come back for future projects or be given exposure such as for the american express advertisement. So, in that regard, even with the laughable plot, i consider last samurai to be more progressive, in terms of opening doors for asian males in hollywood, than red doors ever could. but red doors = aa indie project, and last samurai = big hollywood blockbuster. fine. but you made the comparison.

i'd laugh both because it's Tom Cruise and because it's The Last Samurai. i really fail to see how you think it "encouraged positive Asian male images". that movie was another case in a long trend of the Dances with Wolves syndrome - a movie supposedly about a non-white people, that was really about some white guy that can outdo the natives. it's basically a 21st century version of Karate Kid as far as i'm concerned. and what doors did it open for Ken Watanabe? the door that led him to such roles as the Chairman in Memoirs of a Geisha? if any of us, or the American population, wish to see Asian men in romantic roles in a setting back in Asia, there are entire industries full of Asian cinema that we can watch. what would be progressive in Asian American cinema is if they cast Asian men in balanced roles in an American setting.

with that said, my point was not so much about Red Doors itself. i understand the problem with the movie, and like i said, i'll probably not watch it because of those problems. my point was only that i don't see a problem with relatively unknown Asian American filmmakers trying to promote their small-budget project to the community, despite the problems with the specific movie in question, especially when the problems seem to stop at IR portrayals and the "rebel against tradition" theme. i don't see a point in shitting on their request for support.

Think about that. In order for a Chinese-American woman to defend her movie from attack on an AA internet forum, the first thing she had to do was to tell us about her marriage. It’s like her opinion as an Asian American woman is somehow invalidated if she married a White guy! How sad!

that is how i've felt for a long time concerning certain sites like MM.com and thefighting44s.com, that to many users on those sites (not all, obviously), the credibility of an Asian woman is wholly dependent on the race of her boyfriend or husband.

hooligan

09-10-2006, 08:29 AM

I think the original article put it best, this isn't a film about relationships, it is a film about someone's life.

I've always wondered something, if an Asian American male were to marry a white female would their contributions to the Asian American community be legitimate? I certainly would expect someone who wants to advocate or work for the APIA community to marry within the APIA community. Although this belief is hardly set in stone.

Banana

09-10-2006, 05:15 PM

that's... really not how a lot of filmmakers and movie-goers think.

Yes, I know that.

What I'm trying to say is that there is a big difference between image and story. The individuals that are trying to speak positive about the movie are talking about the storyline whereas the ones that speak negative about it are talking about the image.

Both are equally important.

Both of them have merits but the image of AF/WM is where most of the gripes lie. It's an image that we see all too often.

I'm not sure if Hooligan was being sarcastic or not but I tend to place less legitimacy on Asian Americans that marry out and then fight for the Asian American cause. From my personal experiences, most Asian Americans in interracial relationships, both male or female, tend to be apathetic towards Asian community issues other than their own Asian family members.

Sure, there are exceptions such as Iris Chang but ordinary real world couples tend to follow the same patterns. I'm sure others have read about Julia Oh's article on why there is some truth to the idea that Asian American women in interracial relationships are viewed, and rightly so, as being a hypocrite.

http://www.aamovement.net/viewpoints/sistersear1.html

returntosender

09-10-2006, 05:54 PM

i'd laugh both because it's Tom Cruise and because it's The Last Samurai. i really fail to see how you think it "encouraged positive Asian male images". that movie was another case in a long trend of the Dances with Wolves syndrome - a movie supposedly about a non-white people, that was really about some white guy that can outdo the natives. it's basically a 21st century version of Karate Kid as far as i'm concerned. and what doors did it open for Ken Watanabe? the door that led him to such roles as the Chairman in Memoirs of a Geisha?

Ken is involved in other projects that will be coming out, he's got a well circulated ad with American Express(when was the last time any asian man was sponsored by ANY american company?) AND he stole the spotlight from Tom Cruise-NOT in that horribly William Hung kind of way but because he was actually more sympathetic and charismatic than TC. Needless to say, I think he's done quite good for our image and I wouldn't mind endorsing him in future projects.

if any of us, or the American population, wish to see Asian men in romantic roles in a setting back in Asia, there are entire industries full of Asian cinema that we can watch. what would be progressive in Asian American cinema is if they cast Asian men in balanced roles in an American setting.

Most of the American population has never heard of My Sassy Girl or Fly Me to Polaris, that is why the Last Samurai, and to an extent Memoirs, is still a step forward. It's not Dances with Wolves or Karate Kid (both with totally different themes-why not just throw in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?)-because there is something good to be said about bringing positive asian male images to the public consciousness.

buttermilkwise

09-10-2006, 06:19 PM

I'm not sure if Hooligan was being sarcastic or not but I tend to place less legitimacy on Asian Americans that marry out and then fight for the Asian American cause. From my personal experiences, most Asian Americans in interracial relationships, both male or female, tend to be apathetic towards Asian community issues other than their own Asian family members.

What if they're single and celibate, that does that make them any less legitimate? Hey! How about the Dalai Lama, I hear he's a race traitor sell-out for preaching universal love and compassion.

returntosender

09-10-2006, 06:41 PM

What if they're single and celibate, that does that make them any less legitimate? Hey! How about the Dalai Lama, I hear he's a race traitor sell-out for preaching universal love and compassion.

You're ignoring the fact that there is, in fact, in the real world, a contingent of asian women, a rather large one I'd have to say, that would be satisfied if asian men were wiped off the face of the earth. This is why you have to be different weight on perspectives depending on where they come from.

haplesshobo

09-10-2006, 07:54 PM

that movie was another case in a long trend of the Dances with Wolves syndrome - a movie supposedly about a non-white people, that was really about some white guy that can outdo the natives. it's basically a 21st century version of Karate Kid as far as i'm concerned.

Hey- them fighting words. You know how I love Karate Kid.

So the question is, do you give them the benefit of the doubt and believe her? Or do you think they are being disingenuous. I choose to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her.

The latter.

Usually, I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt, but we've heard too many different excuses and reasons explaining the casting choices that were made.

At the premiere of this movie at the Tribeca festival, at the QA session afterwards, someone from the audience asked why there weren't any asian love interests. On that night, they never once explained that two asian american actors dropped out at the last minute. Instead, they chose to explain it by saying that it proved too difficult to find a asian actor who could also sing.

Since then, we've heard that this story is semi-autobiographical, and that Georgia Lee did not grow up among other asians so that she ended up dating white men and that the movie reflects Lee's reality growing up.

And, now, with this backlash, do we finally now hear the 'real' reason- that two asian actors drop out at the last minute. We've heard several different reasons, and I'm sure we'll hear some new ones as well. Which one is the real one?

If one of the three actresses that played the daughters dropped out, would the producers have simply replaced her with a white actress when they couldn't find another asian actress to play the part? No because it would completely change the story and character. By replacing asian love interests with white ones, they changed the dynamic and relationships between those characters. Yet, they casually accepted this change to the story. In a TV interview, Lee talks about how close the asian acting community is and how she hadn't sent a script to the Tzi Ma, the father in the movie, but he surprised her by agreeing to do the movie after one of the other actresses had given him a copy of the script and urged him to go after this role. Given the tightness of the asian acting community, I can't help but wonder why the asians cast in the movie didn't contact their friends about this oppurtunity. There are so many desperate asian actors out there, and yet they had trobule finding someone...

I also find it telling in that same TV interview, they asked Lee which actors and actresses would she like to work with in the future. Her response was that she wanted to work with Robert Downing because she thought he was really talented. And, for actresses, she wanted to work with Lucy Lius and Kelly Hus and give them three dimensional and non-sterotypical roles.

And, its kind of sad that they had so much trobule finding an asian love interest, but they had no trobule finding the dorky, unappealing asian cliche. In the trailer for the movie, we see that asian male give a obviously uncomfortable daughter a kiss which she really doesn't want to accept.

returntosender

09-10-2006, 08:12 PM

hapless, are you a member of fighting44? that rebuttal sounds really familiar.

hooligan

09-10-2006, 08:20 PM

No, Banana, it was a question I raised with a male-specific dimension I wasn't being sarcastic.

SunWuKong

09-10-2006, 09:34 PM

Open to criticism, yes, of course. Barring a story from ever reaching the public, a bit harsh. Who within the community gets to decide what should and shouldn't be made and which of our stories are legitimate?

My Asian ancestry and the ancestry of my extended family lies in GI's, their warbrides and the struggle they faced to become legally married and make a family together. I have no background in film or journalism but I sometimes consider what it would be like to make a documentary about families like mine. I also consider myself and my family part of the greater Asian American community. Our family story and the stories of families like ours are one of the stories within the community.

Should I just tape a bullseye to my rear if it were made? Should I be discouraged and shamed into not presenting the material because mainstream media favors an Asian woman paired with a white male? Or do I get a one time pass because my personal life isn't so 'sellout' where I'm one of the redeemed hapas because I have an Asian husband? Would you place the same standards on mixed Asians with non-white fathers? Or families with the father as the Asian parent?

Absolutely no offense to the men but I wish more ladies would respond to this as well. I noticed I'm the only source of estrogen here. Really good debate though.

i want to come back to this and address it. my honest answer - if it was a story about your family specifically, or anybody i know, then yes, i would absolutely pay to see it. that's because i consider you a friend. but if it was a story about a random person's family that i don't know, then no, i probably would not pay to see it.

Most of the American population has never heard of My Sassy Girl or Fly Me to Polaris, that is why the Last Samurai, and to an extent Memoirs, is still a step forward. It's not Dances with Wolves or Karate Kid (both with totally different themes-why not just throw in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?)-because there is something good to be said about bringing positive asian male images to the public consciousness.

Last Samurai was also the movie where Tom Cruise kills a Japanese guy and then his wife basically becomes Tom Cruise's maid-servant out of some samurai tradition which i can only imagine to exist all in the minds of the script writers.

but forget about that movie. your point was that you're 25 years old, you've got nephews and male cousins and you want to see Asian men in romantic roles. there're plenty of Asian-made movies for that. you and your male relatives need not wait anxiously for Ken to star in another Last Samurai or Memoirs of a Geisha. however, if you want to see Asian men in romantic roles, set in American society, unfortunately i doubt Ken would be filling in a role like that anytime soon, because there's still a lack of those roles. Ken's popularity is not going to create an increase of romantic and attractive Asian male portrayal in an American setting. not especially when the general audience likes seeing him as a Japanese guy in a Japanese setting, and not especially when he speaks English with an accent. i mean, great job to Ken for his success, but i doubt his roles will help dispel the perpetual foreigner stereotype.

buttermilkwise

09-10-2006, 10:24 PM

You're ignoring the fact that there is, in fact, in the real world, a contingent of asian women, a rather large one I'd have to say, that would be satisfied if asian men were wiped off the face of the earth. This is why you have to be different weight on perspectives depending on where they come from.

Umm.... okay where's you're proof? Seriously Where are these asian women that want to eradicate all asian men off the face of the planet?

Cuz you know i'm an asian guy, and I'm looking at his forum and I don't see them, I look outside of my house and I don't see them. Where are they? Gadzooks fetch me the batmobile Robin they must be holed up inside Arkham Asylum waiting to be liberated by those evil white jackals!! We must make them taste asian cock to make sure they return back to normal!

But hey you know instead of focusing on improving as a person and attracting all kinds of women, it's much better to whine and bitch and throw stones at asian women to get them to come back to us.

returntosender

09-10-2006, 11:28 PM

Umm.... okay where's you're proof? Seriously Where are these asian women that want to eradicate all asian men off the face of the planet?

Why would they be on this forum? You're not very funny.

Cuz you know i'm an asian guy, and I'm looking at his forum and I don't see them, I look outside of my house and I don't see them. Where are they? Gadzooks fetch me the batmobile Robin they must be holed up inside Arkham Asylum waiting to be liberated by those evil white jackals!! We must make them taste asian cock to make sure they return back to normal!

You know, one sarcastic low brow joke is alright, but two in consecutive posts and it's getting to be a tiresome habit. How about you be like George Costanza and next time you think something you're about to write is witty and intelligent, just do the opposite. It might be a pleasant shock to you.

And don't be surprised if I already assumed you were going to ask me to 'show' you these women as if I can just point a finger to some group of asian women with 'I hope asian men disappear' t-shirts and anti-asian male placards. Call it male intuition if you want, but it's the same way I or that millions of others know that Hollywood is racist. You naturally 'feel' it.

But hey you know instead of focusing on improving as a person and attracting all kinds of women, it's much better to whine and bitch and throw stones at asian women to get them to come back to us.

I don't consider it whining if it is something many asian guys are passionate about, and think that it is important enough to have an intelligent, open debate. It's not like 'sellout' and 'whore' has been mentioned anywhere in this thread-so why do you feel the need to use that condescending language as if asian men are not allowed to talk about this controversy? People far smarter than me, and obviously you as well, scholarly asian male and female, speak about out in academic circles-so why not us 'whiny' asian men?

i want to come back to this and address it. my honest answer - if it was a story about your family specifically, or anybody i know, then yes, i would absolutely pay to see it. that's because i consider you a friend. but if it was a story about a random person's family that i don't know, then no, i probably would not pay to see it.

So if she was this random Asian American person, you wouldn't mind if she asked you to support it as part of the AA community, you just wouldn't pay to see it? That's the difference between you and those guys at fighting44-they would support it, like they probably supported the Motel and Better Luck Tomorrow, if only to lend a helping hand to someone on behalf of the AA community. You, on the other hand, couldn't care less about it. Perhaps that is why your reaction is very is not as hostile.

Last Samurai was also the movie where Tom Cruise kills a Japanese guy and then his wife basically becomes Tom Cruise's maid-servant out of some samurai tradition which i can only imagine to exist all in the minds of the script writers.

It's a Hollywood movie with a famous caucasian lead actor. Did you really think that anything but a white dude was going to bag some exotic chicks? Hollywood is a self-serving entity, the fact that they showed Tom Cruise with a Japanese woman is [1]to be expected and [2]not something that is out of conformity with the real world anyway. So while the movie harbored some pitfalls for colored people, Asian in particular, everywhere-the silver lining remains to be Ken Watanabe's performance.

but forget about that movie. your point was that you're 25 years old, you've got nephews and male cousins and you want to see Asian men in romantic roles. there're plenty of Asian-made movies for that. you and your male relatives need not wait anxiously for Ken to star in another Last Samurai or Memoirs of a Geisha. however, if you want to see Asian men in romantic roles, set in American society, unfortunately i doubt Ken would be filling in a role like that anytime soon, because there's still a lack of those roles. Ken's popularity is not going to create an increase of romantic and attractive Asian male portrayal in an American setting. not especially when the general audience likes seeing him as a Japanese guy in a Japanese setting, and not especially when he speaks English with an accent. i mean, great job to Ken for his success, but i doubt his roles will help dispel the perpetual foreigner stereotype.

Here is something ironic about what you just said-Red Doors was a perfect opportunity to give Asian men that role that is the most elusive of all roles, but it went to 3 white guys.
You figure it out why Last Samurai still did more for Asian men than what Georgia Lee and Red Doors could ever do and why Fighting44 might feel a little hurt by Ms. Lee's decisions.

haplesshobo

09-11-2006, 03:16 AM

I would just hate to see AA sites on the net being used to virtually run Georgia Lee out of town.

But I am a teensy bit worried that those can turn into a force for censorship

I haven't read anything that suggests anything like censorship; people are saying that we shouldn't support this film because it just seems so disingenious. She's asking the support of the asian community to watch a movie many of us would otherwise not watch because she's asian. But, why should we support somebody just because they're asian when it appears that she treats asian actors as an afterthought? If she wasn't asking for our help, I'd be inclined to give her a pass and not really give a hoot about this film.

The creative forces behind Red Doors seem to argue that the problem isn't with their movie and lack of asian actors to serve as love interests, but that there aren't enough asian american movies. I think it would be a mistake to support such films when we have our misgivings about those particular films just because of the asian american involvement in those films. I would argue that that would be just as bad as not supporting worthwhile asian american films. The message it sends to Hollywood is that it needs to pump out more of the same cliches and sterotypes because those are the films that made money. Have we really accomplished much if instead of one small independent film where there are no asian males as viable love interests, we have four mainstream hollywood films where there are no asian males that serve as love interests?

SunWuKong

09-11-2006, 10:19 AM

Here is something ironic about what you just said-Red Doors was a perfect opportunity to give Asian men that role that is the most elusive of all roles, but it went to 3 white guys.
You figure it out why Last Samurai still did more for Asian men than what Georgia Lee and Red Doors could ever do and why Fighting44 might feel a little hurt by Ms. Lee's decisions.

no, honestly, Last Samurai is just another reincarnation of Dances With Wolves to me. and any doors that might be opened to Ken would have him playing a Japanese guy as opposed to a Japanese American or Asian American - something that we can see in basically any Japanese movie.

and like i keep repeating, i understand all the problems with Red Doors. i just don't think we need to shit on Asian American filmmakers doing small budget films because they asked for our support.

Napoleon Chynamite

09-11-2006, 10:43 AM

You're ignoring the fact that there is, in fact, in the real world, a contingent of asian women, a rather large one I'd have to say, that would be satisfied if asian men were wiped off the face of the earth.

Uh I think you're being a bit paranoid. Now you're just talking Model Minority style. I have yet to meet any of these so-called asian women you speak of and believe me I've met and am surrounded by plenty. Is this another one of those "facts" that can't really be proven but just "felt"? :rolleyes: Seriously, and you wonder why so many Asian women get turned off and insulted by these discussions. A lot of my Asian female friends complain about how Asian guys online are too whiny and even sexist and chauvinistic about the IR thing, and I fully agree with them.

I guess part of me feels a bit ashamed when I read stuff like this because I'm also an Asian guy, and another sicker part of me wishes that there would be more Asian women dating white guys just to further piss off these people that are making Asian guys look bad.

no, honestly, Last Samurai is just another reincarnation of Dances With Wolves to me. and any doors that might be opened to Ken would have him playing a Japanese guy as opposed to a Japanese American or Asian American - something that we can see in basically any Japanese movie.

and like i keep repeating, i understand all the problems with Red Doors. i just don't think we need to shit on Asian American filmmakers doing small budget films because they asked for our support.

I agree. You know, to add on my own .02, the problem I have with many people on forums that complain or have beef with the IR issue is not so much that they talk about it, it's the fact that it's ALL they talk about. You follow the posts of many who seem to bring up the issue, and you realize that their entire repertoire revolves around AF/WM relationships and how Asian men are getting shafted. This reaches the point where they are unwilling to support or give anything the time of day unless somehow they see an Asian guy getting laid, which is proof in the pudding shown in the lack of support for this film by some. They see something and are blind to basically everything else except for the fact that the asian girl isn't with an asian guy. One has to wonder whether they really even give a shit about any other aspect of Asian American solidarity or political progression.

SunWuKong

09-11-2006, 12:09 PM