All we have learned about Korean history is wrong

[bkim1974]

This is a pretty controversial thread and I welcome everyone to post their opinions.

The Korean history as we know was written and modified during the Japanese occupation between 1910-1945. The first act of the Japanese was to burn 300,000 Korean history books. It took three days and nights to do do that. Only two history books remained, which dealed with the history of the three kingdoms in ancient Korea. The intention of the Japanese was to rewrite Korean history and make it less signifiact than Japanese history. The Japanese had been studying Korean history for a long time and they feared it. They feared it because Korean history spanned 7,000 years and ruled half of China at one point.

Yes the ancient three kingdoms of Korea were actually located in Manchuria and Southeast of China. There is lot of evidence that supports it. Sadly most of the proof comes from various Chinese historical texts and the two books that survived the Japanese. I got my information from a Korean site and I did my best to translate the main points. Some of the most fascinating points are..

1. Ancient history books mention the three kingdoms suffered locusts invasions that ate the crops. Such locusts invasions do not occur in the Korean penninsula.

2. Records show Beakche suffered from drought while Shilla suffered from flood in the SAME YEAR. This would not be possible if those two kingdoms were located in Korea, since Korea is a very small country and those two kingdoms were located side by side. The phenomenom would only be possible if Baekche and Shilla were located North/South and on a much bigger country.

3. Wi dynasty records show they fough Beakche cavalry troops. If that was the case. Beakche troops would have to march past Kokuryo around the pennisula and to mainland China. Or Wi troops would have to meach INTO Korea past Kokuryo. Somehow I don't see Kokryo letting foreign troops in their territory. Beakche and Wi must have been neighboors in China.

4. There is a town called Beakche in Southern China. Locals say their town was founded by the ancestors who came to fight and settled in their town. (well this could be a coincidence).

5. Chinese records show Beackche troops numbered a million at their height. That is more than all the troops combined from the Chinese three kingdoms.

6. In the mid 90s a Korean astronomy professor ran a computer simulation to verify if various astronomical events mentioned in the three kingdom history books (like lunar eclipses) did really occur. The simulation revealed that those events did occur. But the interesting part was that the locations where those events could have been observed could only be in China. People might argue that Korean historians might have copied Chinese records. The the records from the three kingdoms show they were observed independently and at different times. If the records were copies, then the records from the three kingdoms should match each other.

7. Koguryo waged a 10 year war with the Seljuk Turks. This would have been impossible if Koguryo was located in Korea.

8. The last name of the Ching emperors translate as "Love and remember Shilla" The Ching considered themselves descendats of the Shilla people.

9. Shortly after the fall of Beakche, Tang troops were surrounded by Beakche troops who had regrouped. The interesting point was that Tang troops numbered over 500,000 and they had to be rescued by Shilla troops.

10. The physical description of Pyong Yang in North Korea does not mach the current Korean geography. Pyong Yang can actually be found in China.

11. Kyongju, the supposed capital of the Shilla Kingdom, does not have any royal tombs. The tombs that we see there are not royal tombs. No traces of a palace or a royal court or barracks were ever found in Kongju.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. I had a hard time translating everytyhing but maybe this can get people's interest. Please note most of the facts I am stating were found from Chinese historical records and few Korean ones that remained.The titles I could not translate.

[LaiSteve66]

This?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/China_5.jpg

or this?

http://www.korealiberator.org/images/Three%20Kingdoms1.bmp

Decisions, decisions.

[SunWuKong]

They feared it because Korean history spanned 7,000 years and ruled half of China at one point.

that was actually the Khitans and then later, the Jurchens, that ruled half of China (this was after the Tang dynasty). neither of whom were Korean or would later identify as Korean. the Jurchens were the ancestors of the Manchus, and Choson dynasty Koreans thought of the Manchus as "barbarians".


8. The last name of the Ching emperors translate as "Love and remember Shilla" The Ching considered themselves descendats of the Shilla people.

patently wrong. the Manchus consider themselves descendants of the Jurchens.

anyway, that's a lot of claims. care to post up some sources?

[yoMAMA]

that was actually the Khitans and then later, the Jurchens, that ruled half of China (this was after the Tang dynasty). neither of whom were Korean or would later identify as Korean. the Jurchens were the ancestors of the Manchus, and Choson dynasty Koreans thought of the Manchus as "barbarians".

patently wrong. the Manchus consider themselves descendants of the Jurchens.



I can never forgive the manchus for imposing on us this dreadful hair style.

http://www.eddiestrickshop.com/pictures/h1202t.jpg
;)

[kyopojin]

I can never forgive the manchus for imposing on us this dreadful hair style.




It was Manchu's " hair wear " and custom,Qing Dynasty RIGHTFULLY imposed it on conquered population.The pigtail was surely ugly.

I would be grateful if fellow Chinese end past history victimhood crap,it's damaging to self-esteem of younger generation Chinese.

Self-victimization throught recycled histoy is A DISEASE.

Often Westerners and Japanese laugh at Chinese for living in the past.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

^ lol. I was expecting Kypojin to go even more apeshit on the article presented at hand.

[kyopojin]

The OP is more a troll than interested new member here.

Ignore the complete INACCURACY of bkim1974's propagated post.

[rice cracker]

Maybe we can have a discussion instead of finger pointing and name calling. That's DISCUSSION, not flaming.

[kyopojin]

This is only the tip of the iceberg. I had a hard time translating everytyhing but maybe this can get people's interest. Please note most of the facts I am stating were found from Chinese historical records and few Korean ones that remained.The titles I could not translate.



You propagandized post is the tip of the iceberg,you've translated nothing rather typed up this garbage all by yourself.

LOL,many AUTHENTIC Chinese history texts are archived in either CHINA or Taiwan you weren't access to those files.

You littered this thread with FABRICATED HISTORY promoted by ultra-nationalist S Korean fanatic machine.

S Korea has a collection of FABRICATED HISTORY BOOKS available on commercial market.

This type of irrational behavior won't cure Koreans' deep-seated inferior complex from status of Chinese vassal state for 1500 years.

[yoMAMA]

You propagandized post is the tip of the iceberg,you've translated nothing rather typed up this garbage all by yourself.


This type of irrational behavior won't cure Koreans' deep-seated inferior complex from status of Chinese vassal state for 1500 years.

last time I checked, Korean pop culture is conquering China, not the other way around.

So what they were a Chinese protectorate for 2 millenium, America was a british colony 200 years ago...and look at now who's the dog and who's got the leash.

:biggrin:

[hkRT]

I can never forgive the manchus for imposing on us this dreadful hair style.

http://www.eddiestrickshop.com/pictures/h1202t.jpg
;)

Yeah, I don't like that kind of hairstyle either. I like the hairstyle and costumes from the Tang Dynasty if we are talking about ancient chinese. They are beautiful. I wonder how the people kept their hair so long when there was no shampoo or soap back then...

[kyopojin]

last time I checked,Korean pop culture is conquering China,not the other way around.

************************************************** ******************

Check again,popularity of Korean dramas limited to certain regions not wide spread as Chinese media claimed.

For your information,Hong Kong Chinese entertainment CONQUERED S Korea between 1970's-1990's.Some today's A-list S Korean actors/actresses were once fans of Chow Yun-Fat,Leslie Cheung and others.



I like the hairstyle and costumes from the Tang Dynasty if we are talking about ancient chinese. They are beautiful. I wonder how the people kept their hair so long when there was no shampoo or soap back then...



There is a Hanfu revival movement,check out www.hanfu.org

[SunWuKong]

please be civil with each other. if you disagree, do so without flaming each other. otherwise, you only make yourself look like a dumbass. and nobody likes a dumbass.

[yoMAMA]

There is a Hanfu revival movement,check out www.hanfu.org

hanfu looks like pajamas....
:wink:

[bkim1974]

last time I checked, Korean pop culture is conquering China, not the other way around.

So what they were a Chinese protectorate for 2 millenium, America was a british colony 200 years ago...and look at now who's the dog and who's got the leash.

:biggrin:

I think the popularity of pop culture goes in cycles. In the 80s and early 90s anything from HK was popular in Korea. So were Japanese animation and soaps. I'm just enjoying the current fascination of all things Koreans. This surely can't last forever.. I think the word conquer is a pretty strong word.

You propagandized post is the tip of the iceberg,you've translated nothing rather typed up this garbage all by yourself.

LOL,many AUTHENTIC Chinese history texts are archived in either CHINA or Taiwan you weren't access to those files.

You littered this thread with FABRICATED HISTORY promoted by ultra-nationalist S Korean fanatic machine.

S Korea has a collection of FABRICATED HISTORY BOOKS available on commercial market.

This type of irrational behavior won't cure Koreans' deep-seated inferior complex from status of Chinese vassal state for 1500 years.

If you want to talk about fabrication of history, you should look at the Chinese attempt to claim Ghengis Kan as one of their own. attempting to register ancienty Koguryo sites as Chinese historial sites, and so on. I think THAT is a pathetic attempt by the ultranationalistic Chinese fanatics to rewrite history.

My attempt here was not to trade salvos with the ultranationalistic Chinese or Japanese gorups or whatever. I was hoping maybe someone out there knew anything that could confirm or disprove what I have posted.

I do admit my post maybe come off as bit nationalistic but my focus here is the search of the TRUTH. And to question the potentially incorrect history Koreans were shoved down their throat by the wonderful Korean public educational system.

You propagandized post is the tip of the iceberg,you've translated nothing rather typed up this garbage all by yourself.

LOL,many AUTHENTIC Chinese history texts are archived in either CHINA or Taiwan you weren't access to those files.

You littered this thread with FABRICATED HISTORY promoted by ultra-nationalist S Korean fanatic machine.

S Korea has a collection of FABRICATED HISTORY BOOKS available on commercial market.

This type of irrational behavior won't cure Koreans' deep-seated inferior complex from status of Chinese vassal state for 1500 years.



You know there are people in Korea who can translate those Chinese history books. You know, people like historians?

You keep regurgitating the same historical inaccuracy of Korea being a Chinese "vassal" state while knowing very little about Korean history. When was this exactly?

I don't know what deep seated inferiority complex you are talking about. If nothing else Koreans are proud having fought off the Chinese and the Japanese for the last 2000 years or so. There is a big difference between patriotism and ultra nationalism. The latter is a disease and dangerous.

My thread was an attempt to raise the possibility to fellow Koreans that the hisoty we have learned in school may be incorrect and to be more proud of Korean history.

[SunWuKong]

i think we have to first establish what part of Korean history you consider to be pure fabrication before we can have a serious discussion here.

[bkim1974]

The word "fabrication" was used by someone else. I only claimed Korean history as I was taught in school may be inaccurate.

I would like to focus on the actual location of the three kingdoms of ancient Korea. A controversial theory claims Beakche was actually located on the mainland and Shilla was divided between West and East Shilla. West Shilla was supposedly located south of Beakche. And that Koguryo (at its height) controlled the entire Korean peninsula in addition to most of Manchuria and inner Mongolia.

Don't go apeshit people. I just want to have a productive discussion here. Maybe you know something I don't.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I don't know what deep seated inferiority complex you are talking about. If nothing else Koreans are proud having fought off the Chinese and the Japanese for the last 2000 years or so.

Often times, expression of pride and deep-seated insecurity are two sides of the same coin. You see this everywhere, not just with some Korean people. This may just be my individualistic American bastard side talking, but frankly I think people overtly latch onto nationalism or pride in their country because they feel inadequate and ride upon some type of history or legacy (fictitious or otherwise) with which they hold little to no part in terms of contribution. This is in addition to the need to feel as if one's nation or people is significant in comparison to the rest of the world in the first place. It's one thing to respect and acknowledge cultural elements but the extent to which nationalism is often taken especially by many I've seen from Korea and China (usually mainland) is ridiculous.

In fact, I usually abhor nationalism or cultural pride or anything similar. Culture is nothing really to be revered...it's merely the sum total of a specific society's history and way of life. The only time I will admit that it becomes remotely useful is to counteract the suppression or ridicule of a culture on the part of dominant mainstream propaganda and the like, which is why it's much more acceptable for Asians or other minorities in the U.S. to proclaim "______ pride" than it is for whites who will be called racist if they do the same.

[SunWuKong]

The word "fabrication" was used by someone else. I only claimed Korean history as I was taught in school may be inaccurate.

I would like to focus on the actual location of the three kingdoms of ancient Korea. A controversial theory claims Beakche was actually located on the mainland and Shilla was divided between West and East Shilla. West Shilla was supposedly located south of Beakche. And that Koguryo (at its height) controlled the entire Korean peninsula in addition to most of Manchuria and inner Mongolia.

Don't go apeshit people. I just want to have a productive discussion here. Maybe you know something I don't.

well, what sources do you have that are making these claims? i would like to read them.

by the way, the surname of the Qing emperors mean "gold clan".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AisinGioro.png
pronounced aisin gioro in the Manchu language. 愛新覺羅 is just a Chinese-language transliteration.

[bkim1974]

Often times, expression of pride and deep-seated insecurity are two sides of the same coin. You see this everywhere, not just with some Korean people. This may just be my individualistic American bastard side talking, but frankly I think people overtly latch onto nationalism or pride in their country because they feel inadequate and ride upon some type of history or legacy (fictitious or otherwise) with which they hold little to no part in terms of contribution. This is in addition to the need to feel as if one's nation or people is significant in comparison to the rest of the world in the first place. It's one thing to respect and acknowledge cultural elements but the extent to which nationalism is often taken especially by many I've seen from Korea and China (usually mainland) is ridiculous.

In fact, I usually abhor nationalism or cultural pride or anything similar. Culture is nothing really to be revered...it's merely the sum total of a specific society's history and way of life. The only time I will admit that it becomes remotely useful is to counteract the suppression or ridicule of a culture on the part of dominant mainstream propaganda and the like, which is why it's much more acceptable for Asians or other minorities in the U.S. to proclaim "______ pride" than it is for whites who will be called racist if they do the same.


I absolutely agree with you. Ultranationalism as a result of some deep rooted inadequacy is very dangerous. Nothing good ever came out of it. Just look at Japan, Germany, and Italy before WWII.

But the main point of my thread was to question the history that we were taught and be open to the possibility that there is more out there that we learned from the Korean educational system that still hasn't shaken off its Japanese colonial influence.

Like you said, I think it IS important to acknowledge and respect your cultural heritage. But I think there is room to be proud as long as you respect other cultures as well. If you don't feel any pride about your heritage and culture, what motivation is there for you to keep it? During the Japanese occupation, one of the policies instituted by the Japanese government was the "Japanization" of the Korean people. All schools were required to teach Japanese and nothing else. And Korean families were forced to adopt Japanese surnames. If this had gone according to plan, the Korean language and alphabet would have disappeared over time. All we would have left would be a vaque memory of a language called Korean. What would Koreans be today without those things?

However, I do believe that if such pride is taken too far it can result in ultranationalism. It's ugly and nothing good ever came out of it.

well, what sources do you have that are making these claims? i would like to read them.

by the way, the surname of the Qing emperors mean "gold clan".
pronounced aisin gioro in the Manchu language. 愛新覺羅 is just a Chinese-language transliteration.

I'm working on getting the actual Chinese names of the sources I am quoting so that you may look them up yourself.

Do you know the reason why Qing emperors chose such an unusual last name? Why gold? I read an article after I posted my thread stating what you said, that Aisingoro is just a Chinese transliteration. But the historian who wrote the article stated that "gold people" referred to the Kim family, which was the last name of the Shilla royal family. As you know the world gold in Chinese is also the same word for Kim.

A coincidence perhaps but intriguing nonetheless. Maybe you can shed light on this as well.

[SunWuKong]

I'm working on getting the actual Chinese names of the sources I am quoting so that you may look them up yourself.

Do you know the reason why Qing emperors chose such an unusual last name? Why gold? I read an article after I posted my thread stating what you said, that Aisingoro is just a Chinese transliteration. But the historian who wrote the article stated that "gold people" referred to the Kim family, which was the last name of the Shilla royal family. As you know the world gold in Chinese is also the same word for Kim.

A coincidence perhaps but intriguing nonetheless. Maybe you can shed light on this as well.

why gold? because their ancestors, the Jurchens, were the rulers of the Jin dynasty - the "Gold" dynasty. the Jurchens in turn named their dynasty after a river. but hey, if all it takes is a similar surname, then people can claim that the Joseon dynasty was Chinese.

surnames not withstanding, the Jurchens and Manchus were different peoples from Koreans.

[bkim1974]

why gold? because their ancestors, the Jurchens, were the rulers of the Jin dynasty - the "Gold" dynasty. the Jurchens in turn named their dynasty after a river. but hey, if all it takes is a similar surname, then people can claim that the Joseon dynasty was Chinese.

surnames not withstanding, the Jurchens and Manchus were different peoples from Koreans.

The royal last name of the Choson dynasty was Yee not Kim.

You don't seem to understand the whole point of our discussion regarding the Quing dynasty. I never claimed that the Manchu dynasty was Korean and/or part of Korean history. There is no disputing that he Quing/Manchus have a distinct and seperate history from Korea. My point was there was could be a relation between the Quing and Koreans if you go back far enough.

And no Manchus and Koreans are somewhat related. They are both Tunguistic Altaic people.

A few other assertions that support the Jurchens/Manchus are related to Koreans (or vice versa)

- The Aisin goro clan which Nurhaci is part of originated from present day North Korea.

-There are numerous references that the original Jin dynasty was founded in reference to the Shilla dynasty.

- Per The Records of the Manchu Dynasty (rough translation) - 滿洲原流考, it says that that Jin dynasty was named after the last name of the Shilla royal family.

- Per the Song dynasty historical records - 松漠紀聞, it says that the chief of the Jurchen tribe was a Shilla person.

-Per History of the Jin (金史) - it says:

金之始祖諱函普, 初從高麗來，年
已六十餘矣 兄阿古好佛，留
高麗不肯從

This translates as the founder of the Jin came from Kroyo. He was 60 when he left Koryo. However his brother stayed behind

The contention of many Korean historians is that after the fall of Shilla, many of them fled to Manchuria and became part of the Jurchen tribe.

Sadly the Jurchens and the Manchus were considered barbarians and given no respect by the Koreans. Especially Choson dynasty, which chose to ally with the Ming and ignore the Manchus. To this Nurchaci supposedly said, "Why does Choson choose to ignore us and favor the Ming even though we are brothers?" There is a great deal of record regarding Nurhaci in the Records of the Choson dynasty, 朝鮮王朝實錄.If nothing else these records would omit such quotes since they really wanted nothing to do with the Manchus as they (Koreans) felt the Manchus were inferior.

[SunWuKong]

The royal last name of the Choson dynasty was Yee not Kim.

it was 李, which has a Chinese origin.

You don't seem to understand the whole point of our discussion regarding the Quing dynasty. I never claimed that the Manchu dynasty was Korean and/or part of Korean history. There is no disputing that he Quing/Manchus have a distinct and seperate history from Korea. My point was there was could be a relation between the Quing and Koreans if you go back far enough.

And no Manchus and Koreans are somewhat related. They are both Tunguistic Altaic people.

sure, and all of East Asia has Mongoloid origins. and in turn, there's strong evidence all our ancestors are from Africa...

A few other assertions that support the Jurchens/Manchus are related to Koreans (or vice versa)

- The Aisin goro clan which Nurhaci is part of originated from present day North Korea.

-There are numerous references that the original Jin dynasty was founded in reference to the Shilla dynasty.

- Per The Records of the Manchu Dynasty (rough translation) - 滿洲原流考, it says that that Jin dynasty was named after the last name of the Shilla royal family.

- Per the Song dynasty historical records - 松漠紀聞, it says that the chief of the Jurchen tribe was a Shilla person.

-Per History of the Jin (金史) - it says:

金之始祖諱函普, 初從高麗來，年
已六十餘矣 兄阿古好佛，留
高麗不肯從

This translates as the founder of the Jin came from Kroyo. He was 60 when he left Koryo. However his brother stayed behind

The contention of many Korean historians is that after the fall of Shilla, many of them fled to Manchuria and became part of the Jurchen tribe.

i'm really going to have to read these sources myself. and yeah, i've seen that "History of Jin" floating around on the internet, but i've never read an actual copy of the record. and there are about 2 hundred years between the fall of Silla to the founding of the Jin dynasty. sounds very circumstantial.

i mean, the first record of the Dangun legend was found in Samguk Yusa (三國遺事), but that was written in the 13th century. where did they get their information? and Records of the Grand Historian (史記) written by Sima Qian said that Wiman from the Chinese Yan state went to rule the Korean peninsula at about 195 BC, and 史記 were dated as early as 91 BC.

[kyopojin]

There are credible history sources identifies Koryo Dynasty's founder Wang Kon was a descendant of Han Chinese Wang family once lived in LeLang Commandery during China's domination in norther half of today's Korea.

Great majority of 25,000 Koreans with surname Wang can trace Han Chinese ancestry.

S Korean president Roh has ancestors came from Shandong and Hebei provinces,he and a sister made several visits to there.

Are S Koreans ACCURATELY TAUGHT,30% of Koryo Dynasty's 4 million population was bastardized off-springs of Mongol invaders' rape campaign ?

The original ancient Koreans were of Tungus and Dong-Yi origins from China's NE region ( old Manchuria ) and China's Shangdong peninsula.

[bkim1974]

it was 李, which has a Chinese origin.



sure, and all of East Asia has Mongoloid origins. and in turn, there's strong evidence all our ancestors are from Africa...



i'm really going to have to read these sources myself. and yeah, i've seen that "History of Jin" floating around on the internet, but i've never read an actual copy of the record. and there are about 2 hundred years between the fall of Silla to the founding of the Jin dynasty. sounds very circumstantial.

i mean, the first record of the Dangun legend was found in Samguk Yusa (三國遺事), but that was written in the 13th century. where did they get their information? and Records of the Grand Historian (史記) written by Sima Qian said that Wiman from the Chinese Yan state went to rule the Korean peninsula at about 195 BC, and 史記 were dated as early as 91 BC.


If you can read Chinese that will be great. I am interested in what those records say as well.

Well heck if you want to go that far back, let's agree that we all come from Africa and this discussion would have ended long time ago.

You are correct about when the Samguk Yusa was written during the Koryo dynasty. But many historical documents were written after the fact but that doesnt mean they has no validity. I don't believe even the Chinese records we mentioned were written around the same time.

My guess is Sam Guk Yu Sa was written based records on their historical archives. But let me look into that as well.

There are credible history sources identifies Koryo Dynasty's founder Wang Kon was a descendant of Han Chinese Wang family once lived in LeLang Commandery during China's domination in norther half of today's Korea.

Great majority of 25,000 Koreans with surname Wang can trace Han Chinese ancestry.

S Korean president Roh has ancestors came from Shandong and Hebei provinces,he and a sister made several visits to there.

Are S Koreans ACCURATELY TAUGHT,30% of Koryo Dynasty's 4 million population was bastardized off-springs of Mongol invaders' rape campaign ?

The original ancient Koreans were of Tungus and Dong-Yi origins from China's NE region ( old Manchuria ) and China's Shangdong peninsula.

So I guess we have moved on to different time periods..

And the point of all this would be that due to the proximity of ancient Korean and Chinese cultures, a little intermingling was inevitable. I am pretty sure that Wan Gun came from a Chinese family. Wang is not a Korean last name. I don't think it should be a shock to find Koreans living amongst Chinese and vice versa. Is that a shock to you?

And later on Koryo kings married Mongolian princesses (not by choice of course) so the royal family had Mongolian blood. Koreans never had a problem with it. Princess No Guk who was married to King Kong Min, one of the most popular Kings of the Koryo dynasty, was a Mongolian princess and she was a beloved figure amongst Korean people.

The only people who would have a problem with admitting Wang Gun was Chinese and curse those bastard Mongol offsprings will be those dammed ultranationalists.

We were taught that Mongols sacked the entire penninsula. I think rape comes with the package. And it's not like the Mongols didn't sack China when they overran the continent.

Can you tell me what percentage of the Han Chinese population were bastardized offsprings of foreign invaders?

[SunWuKong]

And later on Koryo kings married Mongolian princesses (not by choice of course) so the royal family had Mongolian blood. Koreans never had a problem with it. Princess No Guk who was married to King Kong Min, one of the most popular Kings of the Koryo dynasty, was a Mongolian princess and she was a beloved figure amongst Korean people.

The only people who would have a problem with admitting Wang Gun was Chinese and curse those bastard Mongol offsprings will be those dammed ultranationalists.

We were taught that Mongols sacked the entire penninsula. I think rape comes with the package. And it's not like the Mongols didn't sack China when they overran the continent.

Can you tell me what percentage of the Han Chinese population were bastardized offsprings of foreign invaders?

not that there's anything wrong with having Mongol blood, but i'm doubtful that there's really much Mongol genetic imprint on the Chinese and Koreans of today. Mongol rule in China and Korea lasted less than 100 years, and this happened 6 or 7 hundred years ago.

by the way, here's another thread where we discussed the Mongol genetic influence on Korea. http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=29046

as for the Han Chinese population - any knowledgeable Chinese person will tell you that there's no such thing as genetic purity when it comes to the Han Chinese. the identity is much more of a cultural one than it is a genetic one. but as far as the mixed genetic makeup goes, it was more because of centuries and centuries of assimilating peoples on the borders of the Chinese empire than they are "bastardised offsprings of foreign invaders". this was especially true in the Tang dynasty as it was a period of expansion. but througout Chinese history, the nation has moved, expanded, fragmented, and unified so many times that the Han Chinese identity is much more of a cultural identity now.

[kyopojin]

One of Korea's SAMHAN statelets,Jinhan was founded by Han Chinese descendants of China's Qin Dynasty whose forefathers fled to Korea peninsula.There are some authentic Chinese history texts dicumented Jinhan's population spoke Qin-Chinese language NOT Altaic dialect.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I don't have any statistics or quotes from academically credible sites/sources to back this up, nor am I a geneticist or archaeologist, but based on observation of facial features alone it seems pretty darn clear to me that mongolian and manchurian bloodlines are much more prevalent in Koreans than in Chinese, and in turn much more prevalent in Chinese from northern regions than those from the south. If you see pictures of modern day Mongolians, you'll find that a lot of them could easily be mistaken for Korean although perhaps not exactly vice versa because the Korean gene pool has some Han Chinese and northeast Asian (aside from Mongolian) admixture. I could also be mistaking the phenotypical appearances of other groups and classifying too much under the umbrella of "mongol blood", but I dunno.

[kyopojin]

As I've also posted elsewhere in cyberspace,Nomadic and Tungus are MOST PREVALENT in modern day Korean gene pool.

Yes,there were sporadic incremental small scales of Han Chinese migration to Korea peninsula through out Korean history.However,it's a small component in the Korean ethnicity.

We also need to consider,there were continuous floods of various Mongol and Tungus sought refuge in Korea peninsula through out Korean history.



If you see pictures of modern day Mongolians,you'll find that a lot of them could easily be mistaken for Korean although perhaps not exactly vice versa because the Korean gene pool has some Han Chinese and northeast Asian (aside from Mongolian) admixture.



It was during Koryo Dynasty under-controlled of Mongol Empire,added large influx of Mongol blood to the native population gene pool.Before this period,original population was mainly comprised of Tungus and Dong-Yi origins.



If you see pictures of modern day Mongolians,you'll find that a lot of them could easily be mistaken for Korean



Same can be said about native Shandong Han Chinese of Dong-Yi origin share physical built and facial similiarities with a percentage of modern day Korean population.

Korean race has MULTIPLE-origins,same as Japanese.As for Chinese is now a generic race or " Heinz 57 " of intermixed Mongoloid ethnicities.

There are Japanese DON'T LOOK ( especially northerners ) a bit like Koreans or Chinese.

[SunWuKong]

kyopojin, i've edited it part of your post. i don't know what your problem is with Koreans, but take it somewhere else or the next time you'll be temporarily banned.

[Moong Joong]

ha! my culture dominated/took over/ruled over yours a long time ago!

[cultural masturbate]

[BeTheReds]

I understand why Koreans want to feel like we were more than we actually were, but if what the original author is claiming is true, then the suzerain/vassalage relationship between China and Korea doesn't make sense. I can somewhat believe or at least am intrigued with hypotheses that Paekchae possibly may have started Yamato Japan or at least had a huge involvement in it, but to suggest that Korea's three Kingdoms all had large colonial involvement in China much larger than their own home territory on the peninsula is ludicrous. You would have a lot of trouble finding even a handful of nationalistic Korean-biased historians with any academic integrity to back anyone up on this. What you do have are people on the internet who distort facts and flat out lie so that they can feel better about themselves.

As for floods and droughts? Maryland (one of the smallest states in the USA) has periods where the Eastern Shore gets floods, where the western panhandle has droughts. How is that possible? Geography 101 shows that weather changes often occur along mountain ranges, and the fall line running along the appalachian mountains often gives the eastern parts of Maryland very different weather than the western parts. What geographical feature roughly separates what is currently believed to have been Shilla and Paekchae? Rivers and mountain ranges. Is it not possible then that one part of Korea can get rain while another can't? Sure it's less likely than in the case of Maryland, but not terribly impossible.

Furthermore, how does this prove that they ALL had posessions in China? Isn't it possible that only one or two did? Koguryo definately expanded into Manchuria. It's possible that Paekchae had expanded into Japan and maybe parts of southern China. Shilla? What evidence is there to suggest that Shilla had anything other than in Shilla? Why would it have been such a big deal to unite the peninsula when there would have been other Paekchae and Koguryo territories elsewhere? Why would Paekchae and Koguryo losing their peninsular lands lead to their collapse if they had territory elsewhere?

This question only leads to more questions and only points towards the answer: It's slightly possible, but highly unlikely.

[SunWuKong]

I understand why Koreans want to feel like we were more than we actually were, but if what the original author is claiming is true, then the suzerain/vassalage relationship between China and Korea doesn't make sense. I can somewhat believe or at least am intrigued with hypotheses that Paekchae possibly may have started Yamato Japan or at least had a huge involvement in it, but to suggest that Korea's three Kingdoms all had large colonial involvement in China much larger than their own home territory on the peninsula is ludicrous. You would have a lot of trouble finding even a handful of nationalistic Korean-biased historians with any academic integrity to back anyone up on this. What you do have are people on the internet who distort facts and flat out lie so that they can feel better about themselves.

much of the issue involves the claim that the Jurchens were Koreans, or descendants of ancient Koreans. but the Jurchens' history in China is not generally considered part of Korean history. i'm not sure if there's any anthropological evidence to support the claim though. most of the evidence seems circumstantial to me.

[VV o n g B a]

Same can be said about native Shandong Han Chinese of Dong-Yi origin share physical built and facial similiarities with a percentage of modern day Korean population.i can attest to that. my parents are from shandong/hebei and if someone attempts to guess my ethnicity, 4 out of 5 of the times they guess korean.

[bkim1974]

I understand why Koreans want to feel like we were more than we actually were, but if what the original author is claiming is true, then the suzerain/vassalage relationship between China and Korea doesn't make sense. I can somewhat believe or at least am intrigued with hypotheses that Paekchae possibly may have started Yamato Japan or at least had a huge involvement in it, but to suggest that Korea's three Kingdoms all had large colonial involvement in China much larger than their own home territory on the peninsula is ludicrous. You would have a lot of trouble finding even a handful of nationalistic Korean-biased historians with any academic integrity to back anyone up on this. What you do have are people on the internet who distort facts and flat out lie so that they can feel better about themselves.

You are starting from the assumption that there was some constant "suzerain/vassalage" relationship between Korea and Japan. I can only think of Koryo/Mongol and Choson/Ching and even those didn't last that long. Please get out of the mindset that Korea has been a vassat state of China for the last 5,000 years.

It is true that there is no smoking gun that can prove my claim. They are a series of assertions that raise the possibility that the Korean three Kingdoms may have been in China which left me intrigued.
Some MAY bee baseless claims by certain people but many are based from thesses written by members of academia (the nationalistic kind I guess). There are just too many assertions out there for me to dismiss them as pure fantasies.

I don't understand why is it so ludicrous that Korean people may have lived in the continent.

As for the drought/flood point you make a good point. But can severe drought and flood exist at the same time in Maryland? After the three kingdoms, such case has never been recorded in Unified Shilla, Koryo or Choson dynasty. Not even today. It is not possible.

Often when an idea that is radically different from the norm is introduced, it is often met with ridicule. The fact is Korean historians were educated by an educational system that is heavily influenced by colonial era Japan, including the history. Like I mentioned before much of Korean history was written by the Japanese and NO ONE has attempted to verify its authenticity. It seems to be just because we are talking about Korean history, its people must have been stuck in the penninsula and fought over the small piece of land. Korean historians have been mainly preoccupied with finding evidence to fit the mold (that the three kingdoms were in the penninsula) instead of starting from a clean sheet.


Sixty years after the liberation, the reminders of Japanese colonianism are everywhere. In our educational system, government bureaucrazy, etc. Why do you ask? Because change is hard. That includes history. It is hard to turn everything you have learned upside down and start over.

much of the issue involves the claim that the Jurchens were Koreans, or descendants of ancient Koreans. but the Jurchens' history in China is not generally considered part of Korean history. i'm not sure if there's any anthropological evidence to support the claim though. most of the evidence seems circumstantial to me.


Right. It is a bit circumstantial. But I was intrigued nonetheless.

[kyopojin]

I don't understand why is it so ludicrous that Korean people may have lived in the continent.



Chinese and Japanese do know Koreans came from China.

Modern day ETHNIC Korean population are descedants of Shandong peninsula's ancient Dong-Yi,various Tungus tribes in today's China NE region and southeastern parts of Siberia,Han Chinese of Hua-Xia origin in Hebei province,plus Mongol hordes in Inner/Outer Mongolia.

There was NO Great Chosun Empire,for it's a fabricated history.



What you do have are people on the internet who distort facts and flat out lie so that they can feel better about themselves.



Someone hit the nail on the coffin.

[BeTheReds]

You are starting from the assumption that there was some constant "suzerain/vassalage" relationship between Korea and Japan. I can only think of Koryo/Mongol and Choson/Ching and even those didn't last that long. Please get out of the mindset that Korea has been a vassat state of China for the last 5,000 years.

No, I am stating that it's between Korea and China, and there is a lot of evidence that such a relationship existed with only gaps happening when there was a dynastic change.


It is true that there is no smoking gun that can prove my claim. They are a series of assertions that raise the possibility that the Korean three Kingdoms may have been in China which left me intrigued.
Some MAY bee baseless claims by certain people but many are based from thesses written by members of academia (the nationalistic kind I guess). There are just too many assertions out there for me to dismiss them as pure fantasies.


Well yea, we can't totally dismiss them, but that still doesn't make sense that Koreans would even give a shit about the Korean peninsula if all of their kingdoms had lots of territory elsewhere. It would be similar to New England, New France, and New Spain becoming independent nations, then fighting a war over Florida. (Assuming they all had concessions in Florida) Now lets say New Spain beats the other two and gets Florida... would the other two collapse? Probably not.


I don't understand why is it so ludicrous that Korean people may have lived in the continent.
It isn't... They still live there. I am sitting on the continent right now! HAHA. Well seriously, we know that the most likely the ancestors of the Koreans and Japanese came from northeastern China and Southeastern Russa, roughly what could be called Manchuria. Do the Jurchens come from the same ancestors? Possibly.

As for the drought/flood point you make a good point. But can severe drought and flood exist at the same time in Maryland?

Yes, the last time it occured was in 1993 I believe, or at least somewhere in the 1990s. Isn't it also possible that the person writing the records in the respective areas could have been writing about local conditions, and not the entire country? If not, isn't it possible that they used different dating systems in their records, and one current extrapolation is false? Is it not also possible that one of the people writing the records made an error on the date? How sophisticated was recordkeeping back then? Even now, some people only know their birthday based on the lunar calandar and if you were to ask them by the solar calendar, they wouldn't have the slightest idea... on their own birthday? Anyway I am assuming that they are going by the common dating system... The year of king so and so's rule. Since the two nations had different Kings, it's very possible that extrapolation of the two dates are based on references to certain things when compared in Chinese History. There are too many areas where mistakes can be made.


After the three kingdoms, such case has never been recorded in Unified Shilla, Koryo or Choson dynasty. Not even today. It is not possible.


Are you sure? I remember in 2001, all of south Korea was having a terrible 42 day rainless stretch, the same was not being felt in parts of North Korea, which had gotten rain probably once per week during that stretch, the problem was, that the weather front was fixed slightly north of North Korea. South Korea and Japan suffered because of it. Now, is it possible that the weather like that can stay stable for a whole year? No, but what constitutes a severe drought? What constitutes a severe flood? Can't one happen right after the other?


Often when an idea that is radically different from the norm is introduced, it is often met with ridicule. The fact is Korean historians were educated by an educational system that is heavily influenced by colonial era Japan, including the history. Like I mentioned before much of Korean history was written by the Japanese and NO ONE has attempted to verify its authenticity.
Wrong! In fact most early Korean history comes from early Chinese records, not recently created Japanese ones. The only things Japan fabricated it seems was that they had a colonial presence in Korea during the 3 kingdoms period, labeling Gaya as Mimana and asserting it was a Japanese colony. This can be found in the Nihon Shoki, which almost everyone knows is shaky when it comes to history, as its main purpose is to give legitimacy to the emperor and his family. There are myths in it even. Those myths and certain parts of the Nihon Shoki have been rejected by Koreologists. Most now go by old Chinese records and indigenous Korean ones.

It seems to be just because we are talking about Korean history, its people must have been stuck in the penninsula and fought over the small piece of land. Korean historians have been mainly preoccupied with finding evidence to fit the mold (that the three kingdoms were in the penninsula) instead of starting from a clean sheet.

There is too much evidence to suggest this is what happened. Even if you look at it from a linguistic standpoint, there are divisions in Korean regoinal dialects that roughly fall along the lines of the 3 kingdoms. Those could have developed later, sure, but why don't we find anything resembling an ancient Korean language in most of mainland China among its minority ethnic groups? I think in your lust for nationalism you'd better focus your energy on Japan and it's origins in Korea. That's way more provable and much more likely.


Sixty years after the liberation, the reminders of Japanese colonianism are everywhere. In our educational system, government bureaucrazy, etc. Why do you ask? Because change is hard. That includes history. It is hard to turn everything you have learned upside down and start over.


While that's true, a lot of the way things get done in Korea are similar to Japanese ways, I guarantee you that the first thing they went about changing was the history. The Japanese colonial rule only lasted 40 years (1905-1945) 45 if you count the protectorate years. Surely if what you are claiming is true, SOMEONE educated before the Japanese rule would have been around to contest everything.

[kyopojin]

Average Japanese do know there are several origin sources of their population.China's coastal region ( Han Chinese ancestry ),Korea and China's NE region plus SE Siberia ( Tungus ancestry ),Japan's indigenous Ainu,plus Pacific Islanders.

Yearly published " Handbook of Korea " by S Korea's Cultural Ministry available at any major American public library,with one page has a map clearly identifies ancient ORIGINS of Korean population.One was China's Shandong peninsula ( Han Chinese of Dong-Yi heritage ),Central Asia's Mongolia ( Nomadic hordes ),and China's NE region ( various Tungus tribes ).

[bkim1974]

Wrong! In fact most early Korean history comes from early Chinese records, not recently created Japanese ones. The only things Japan fabricated it seems was that they had a colonial presence in Korea during the 3 kingdoms period, labeling Gaya as Mimana and asserting it was a Japanese colony. This can be found in the Nihon Shoki, which almost everyone knows is shaky when it comes to history, as its main purpose is to give legitimacy to the emperor and his family. There are myths in it even. Those myths and certain parts of the Nihon Shoki have been rejected by Koreologists. Most now go by old Chinese records and indigenous Korean ones.

WRONG! The current history textbook being taught is based largely on the one written by the Japanese Education Ministry in the 30s titled History of Korea. Please prove me wrong because the thought is very depressing. Historians may deny this fact. But after the war Koreans had nothing to begin with so they had to start with what they had. But because there were many Japanese sympathizers at that time lot of things did not get done.

Weren't you aware that the people who were able to fill key positions in government, military, and education after the war were JAPANESE EDUCATED SYMPATHIZERS? It made sense because they were the only educated ones and could run the country. I don't think anyone with anti Japanese sentiment could get ahead in colonial Korea.

The US recognized this and had no choice to use them to run the government. Now tell me what their incentive was to rewrite the history book their former Japanese colonial masters took great pains to distort.

Before Japan instituted land reforms(to take all the land), forced Koreans to change their last name, and adoped many Japanization policies, the first thing they did was to burn 300,000 ancient Korean history textbook and materials over three days at the present site of the Nam San Arboretum. Now why do you think they did that? To get rid of much evidence and rewrite history.

You forget there is little or no indigineous Korean records. Only two ancient Korean records remain that go back before Choson, Sam Guk Sa Ki and Sam Guk Yu Sa. And they are numerous clues in those two books that hint the Three Kindoms may have existed in present day china

No, I am stating that it's between Korea and China, and there is a lot of evidence that such a relationship existed with only gaps happening when there was a dynastic change.



Well yea, we can't totally dismiss them, but that still doesn't make sense that Koreans would even give a shit about the Korean peninsula if all of their kingdoms had lots of territory elsewhere. It would be similar to New England, New France, and New Spain becoming independent nations, then fighting a war over Florida. (Assuming they all had concessions in Florida) Now lets say New Spain beats the other two and gets Florida... would the other two collapse? Probably not.

.

What makes you think the Koreans gave a shit about the Korean penninsula? There is evidence to suggest many of the battles described in Sam Guk Yu Sa took place in China. So they were in fact fighting for present day Chinese territory, not present day Korean territory.

Descriptions of many cities and rivers throughout Sam Guk Yu Sa cannot be found in Korea but can be found in China.




There is too much evidence to suggest this is what happened. Even if you look at it from a linguistic standpoint, there are divisions in Korean regoinal dialects that roughly fall along the lines of the 3 kingdoms. Those could have developed later, sure, but why don't we find anything resembling an ancient Korean language in most of mainland China among its minority ethnic groups? I think in your lust for nationalism you'd better focus your energy on Japan and it's origins in Korea. That's way more provable and much more likely.

.

That's because the borders of the three Kingdoms were conveniently drawn along the dialect lines. You know .. Chollado dialect for Beakche, Kyongsangdo dialect for Shilla, and Kokuryo gets to keep the funky North Korean accent. There was even a movie about that, which I thought was pretty good. Now why isn't it possible for a SINGLE country to have different dialects. Many countries do.. why not Korea?

You probably wont find an ethnic minority speaking a form of ancient Korean language because they were most likely absorbed by the local population. HOWEVER, if you go to northern Thailand there is a tribe called the Lahu. They don't look Thai and resemble Koreans. They eat fermented cabbage similar to kimchi. They eat miso that is similar to Korean miso. And their language structure is similar to Korean and Japanese rather than Chinese or Thai. You know object before subject ( or is it the other way around). Their words for "I" and "You" are the same as Korean. Coincidence? Or remnants of an ancient Korean population who wandered to Thailand...

I resent the "lust for nationalism" comment. I'm not one of those people claiming Koreans invensted the Chinese characters.. geesh

And yes the Korean Hangul is not entirely original despite the claims by the nationalists. There is evidence to suggest King Sejong borrowed it from somewhere. The source? Ancient Sanskrit...

[SunWuKong]

Chinese or Korean historical records, a lot of times, they were compiled by the royal court in such a way as to justify their rule, especially to justify that they've rightly taken control from the former rulers or from the last dynasty. in other words, they can be very politically motivated.

but sure, it's commonly accepted that Goguryeo controlled territories that are in present-day China. so it shouldn't be surprising if Samguk Yusa describes geography and battles that took place in present-day Chinese territory.

[kyopojin]

Goguryeo was once a mighty kingdom,it conquered the territory what's now Hebei province and held it for 160 years then retreated to today's China's Jilin province as its militarily weaken and beaten out by rival Chinese dynasty or another Nomadic horde in the area.

The truth of matter is Korean kingdoms in the peninsula were " beaten down " war refugees.No Chinese history texts ever denied specific Chinese dynasties and various Nomadic hordes drove them out of China's NE region.

Tattoo is an old Japanese tradition,it can trace roots to China's coastal region ( Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces ) ancient indigenous population south of Yangtze River,also where rice cultivation brought to Japan islands.This was one source of Japanese origins.

Tungus or Siberian nomadic tribes had no such practice past or present.

[BeTheReds]

WRONG! The current history textbook being taught is based largely on the one written by the Japanese Education Ministry in the 30s titled History of Korea. Please prove me wrong because the thought is very depressing. Historians may deny this fact. But after the war Koreans had nothing to begin with so they had to start with what they had. But because there were many Japanese sympathizers at that time lot of things did not get done. Which current textbook do you speak of? Outside of Korea most textbooks about Korean history use Chinese sources, Japanese sources, Indiginous Korean sources, and basically everything except for certain fabrications in the Nihon Shoki. So even if you are trying to suggest that the current government is a bunch of Japan worshipers, that's irrelevant. I guarantee you that the brand of history that Koreans learn in school is much more pro Korean nationalist than any history book about Korea that you read outside of Korea. The way you have it, the opposite should be true, since in your opinion the government loves Japanese colonial rule.

Weren't you aware that the people who were able to fill key positions in government, military, and education after the war were JAPANESE EDUCATED SYMPATHIZERS? It made sense because they were the only educated ones and could run the country. I don't think anyone with anti Japanese sentiment could get ahead in colonial Korea.

... That's still irrelevant. First of all the colonial period lasted only 40 years as I stated before. Surely someone would have been around who was educated before colonial rule. Second, Japan sympathizers were only remaining in power in South Korea. North Korea on the other hand turned inward and began its Juche ideology. If they wanted to, they could write history as they see fit (which they do) and say whatever they want. They tell people that Kim Il Sung has the ability to fly, that Kim Jong Il spoke his first words minutes after his birth, and people believe it. Don't you think that if there was compelling evidence to suggest that the Korean three kingdoms were in fact actually in the Chinese mainland, that our buddies up north would say something to that effect?


The US recognized this and had no choice to use them to run the government. Now tell me what their incentive was to rewrite the history book their former Japanese colonial masters took great pains to distort.

You seem to think that the South Korean ministry of Education is the authority on Korean History, and that no other foreign textbooks, which aren't controlled by the Korean ministry of Education are reputable. The truth is, most books published outside of Korea can say whatever they want to, and none of them mention any of this.


Before Japan instituted land reforms(to take all the land), forced Koreans to change their last name, and adoped many Japanization policies, the first thing they did was to burn 300,000 ancient Korean history textbook and materials over three days at the present site of the Nam San Arboretum. Now why do you think they did that? To get rid of much evidence and rewrite history.


That's still irrelevant, because surely someone who had been educated in Korean history from those particular sources would have survived the Colonial occupation. Most of those records probably agreed with the view that the Korean Kingdoms were on the peninsula.


You forget there is little or no indigineous Korean records. Only two ancient Korean records remain that go back before Choson, Sam Guk Sa Ki and Sam Guk Yu Sa. And they are numerous clues in those two books that hint the Three Kindoms may have existed in present day china

Sure if you take them out of context and read into them with the intent to find such a thing. Believe what u want to believe man, I mean, it seems liek you're pretty convinced. I'm as pro Korean as they come, and I have a real hard time believing it.


What makes you think the Koreans gave a shit about the Korean penninsula?
Wow.. that's... that's profound!


There is evidence to suggest many of the battles described in Sam Guk Yu Sa took place in China. So they were in fact fighting for present day Chinese territory, not present day Korean territory.
So then... if Shilla unified it all, why doesn't Korea still have control over China?

Descriptions of many cities and rivers throughout Sam Guk Yu Sa cannot be found in Korea but can be found in China.


Describe 1770 Washington DC to me. What does it look like now?
Describe 1630 New Amsterdam to me. What does New York look like now?

Is it so hard to believe that an ancient description of Pyoung-yang would be very very different from what you see there now?


That's because the borders of the three Kingdoms were conveniently drawn along the dialect lines. You know .. Chollado dialect for Beakche, Kyongsangdo dialect for Shilla, and Kokuryo gets to keep the funky North Korean accent. There was even a movie about that, which I thought was pretty good. Now why isn't it possible for a SINGLE country to have different dialects. Many countries do.. why not Korea?
Do you have evidence to suggest that someone drew the borders along the dialectal lines? Or are you hypothesizing? What about all the archaeological evidence that suggests that there were actually three different Kingdoms there? What about Japan's interactions with the 3 kingdoms, detailed in their historical sources. Oh wait, we can't use Japanese sources cuz Japan changed every single one of them to conform to their colonialist agenda, right? They were able to hide the truth that Koreans were much greater than they themselves believe, yet, they allowed Koreans to hold onto Yi Sun Shin. Wouldn't it have been in Japanese interest to erase Yi Sun Shin from history altogether?


You probably wont find an ethnic minority speaking a form of ancient Korean language because they were most likely absorbed by the local population. How convenient, you don't even need proof to make such a ludicrous claim.

HOWEVER, if you go to northern Thailand there is a tribe called the Lahu. They don't look Thai and resemble Koreans. That's a particular matter of individual judgement. It also proves nothing.

They eat fermented cabbage similar to kimchi.
That's really really totally irrelevant because Kimchi only started very recently. The red pepper, which everyone associates with Korean cuisine is a new world plant, and did not exist in Asia before contact with seafaring European peoples who also had traveled to the Americas. If you are talking about fermented cabbage alone without red pepper, then can we also include German Saurkraut into this grouping? So then are Germans also Korean?

They eat miso that is similar to Korean miso. See above, similarities in food mean nothing. Can we say that mexicans are really chinese because of the tortilla resembling the thing you wrap peking duck in? No...


And their language structure is similar to Korean and Japanese rather than Chinese or Thai. You know object before subject ( or is it the other way around). Korean is SOV. English is SVO. I don't think anyone is OSV, but that's possible.


Their words for "I" and "You" are the same as Korean. Coincidence? Or remnants of an ancient Korean population who wandered to Thailand...
Almost everyone in the world has the same word for mother and father. Korean has at least three words for I and you, and yes, it could be a mere coincedence. Japanese and Korean have totally different words for I and You, does this make them less related than the language of this Siamese tribe of yours?

I resent the "lust for nationalism" comment. I'm not one of those people claiming Koreans invensted the Chinese characters.. geesh


Well, if Koreans had such a large presence in China, where would there have been any Chinese to do any of that? Hangul only took root in the 1300s. What were these Chinese mainland Koreans writing in? Basically saying that Korean Kingdoms were in China invalidates a lot of Chinese History, to the point that we'd have to question whether or not whole dynasties existed.


And yes the Korean Hangul is not entirely original despite the claims by the nationalists. There is evidence to suggest King Sejong borrowed it from somewhere. The source? Ancient Sanskrit...

Japanese sources that were fabricated suggest he learned it from some Japanese people who invented hangul to write in Japanese, whereupon the King modified it to account for final consonants. Even if Sejong did borrow something from sanscrit, that doesn't mean he didn't invent hangul. I can read hangul, and I can't read sanskrit. I am sure there are people who are able to read sanskrit, but can't read hangul. He may have borrowed elements of it, but it's not the same.

[SunWuKong]

You probably wont find an ethnic minority speaking a form of ancient Korean language because they were most likely absorbed by the local population. HOWEVER, if you go to northern Thailand there is a tribe called the Lahu. They don't look Thai and resemble Koreans. They eat fermented cabbage similar to kimchi. They eat miso that is similar to Korean miso. And their language structure is similar to Korean and Japanese rather than Chinese or Thai. You know object before subject ( or is it the other way around). Their words for "I" and "You" are the same as Korean. Coincidence? Or remnants of an ancient Korean population who wandered to Thailand...

according to this webpage below, the Lahu language is Sino-Tibetan and is tonal.
http://www.lanna.com/LisuLodge/html/lahu.html

it would be interesting if the Lahu has similar ancestry to Korean people. but hey, i know Koreans love their kimchi. i like it too. but Koreans are probably not the only people who started fermenting cabbage. :smile:

Well, if Koreans had such a large presence in China, where would there have been any Chinese to do any of that? Hangul only took root in the 1300s. What were these Chinese mainland Koreans writing in? Basically saying that Korean Kingdoms were in China invalidates a lot of Chinese History, to the point that we'd have to question whether or not whole dynasties existed.

it really depends on exactly where these geographical locations are. Goguryeo controlled parts of what is now present-day northeastern China. it shouldn't be surprising if ancient texts referred to areas in what is now northeastern China.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Does this mean that instead of Koreans and Japanese being Chinese-in-denial, we are all in fact Koreans-in-denial?

[kyopojin]

LOL .... It feeds some internet junkie individuals' psychotic egos !

One SK troll labeled northern Han Chinese are " lost Koreans " on a Chinese history site.

[BeTheReds]

it really depends on exactly where these geographical locations are. Goguryeo controlled parts of what is now present-day northeastern China. it shouldn't be surprising if ancient texts referred to areas in what is now northeastern China.


That's a very good point. I might be willing to accept the possibility if that's what was meant, that perhaps the borders within the peninsula itself were drawn incorrectly.

I've heard other theories that Paekchae actually had an empire that spanned from Tsingtao to Osaka. Perhaps if that were true, then some of Paekchae's Chinese battles could have taken place without marching past Koguryo. I won't accept that Shilla had any concession in Mainland China however.

[kyopojin]

Paekchae was the MILITARILY WEAKEST of 3 kingdoms,the royal house and population mainly comprised of Puyo tribe once populated what's now China's northeast Jilin province.

Paekchae's royal house of Puyo had many political marriages with ETHNIC Han Chinese House of Kung Sung in Liaotung peninsula before they took refuge in what's now southern part of Korea peninsula.One Paekchae princess was married into Japan's royal family.Yamato civilization WASN'T founded by Paekchae or any Korean kingdom.

[BeTheReds]

Paekchae was the MILITARILY WEAKEST of 3 kingdoms,the royal house and population mainly comprised of Puyo tribe once populated what's now China's northeast Jilin province.

Paekchae's royal house of Puyo had many political marriages with ETHNIC Han Chinese House of Kung Sung in Liaotung peninsula before they took refuge in what's now southern part of Korea peninsula.One Paekchae princess was married into Japan's royal family.Yamato civilization WASN'T founded by Paekchae or any Korean kingdom.


Yea, I wasn't saying that's my belief or that any of it is provable, but I think the possibility of that is much more than all 3 kingdoms being located in China.

[Aurutus]

I did mention that today's "China" mentality is sort of like the idea of America or Canada, a melting pot of diverse races. Chinese people didn't claim that Genghis Khan was chinese, he was definitely Mongolian but Mongolia was later part of China. Also, the faces of Mongolians have asiatic features and hence considered Asians.

We have to seperate ourselves into different time zones and eras and read the history accordingly and not let the past hatred pass on. I found many Korean readers become engrossed in the past and forget that we are living in a different world now.

I have a question that I could never figure out. During the Ming dynasty, Ming emperor sent troops to Korea to fight off the Japanese troops. It's sort of a biliateral deal they had back then. But how come Korean troops were never sent to help the Ming dynasty when they were attacked by the Ching/Jurchens ? It makes me wonder if China is in trouble, would NK or SK come by to assist ? I think it was never recorded in the history.

[BeTheReds]

I did mention that today's "China" mentality is sort of like the idea of America or Canada, a melting pot of diverse races. Chinese people didn't claim that Genghis Khan was chinese, he was definitely Mongolian but Mongolia was later part of China. Also, the faces of Mongolians have asiatic features and hence considered Asians.

We have to seperate ourselves into different time zones and eras and read the history accordingly and not let the past hatred pass on. I found many Korean readers become engrossed in the past and forget that we are living in a different world now.
Pot calling the kettle black baby! China has plenty of its own fuck Japan rallies. China is just as guilty of not letting go of past hatred. And what China wants (and will probably eventually get) is hegemony over East Asia. China wants the status quo and is one of the major obstacles to reunification. Talk about dear friends!


I have a question that I could never figure out. During the Ming dynasty, Ming emperor sent troops to Korea to fight off the Japanese troops. It's sort of a biliateral deal they had back then. But how come Korean troops were never sent to help the Ming dynasty when they were attacked by the Ching/Jurchens ? It makes me wonder if China is in trouble, would NK or SK come by to assist ? I think it was never recorded in the history.

I think you're too focused on the past! Try to forget the hate. China is loads more powerful and can take care of itself. Also your example as showing China as a benevolent friend of Korea is false, the actions there were taken to promote China's national interest, not to help out their buds.

Furthermore you're acting as if Koreans have never helped China out. You've forgotten the loads of Koreans who helped both Mao and Chiang during the civil war in China.

[kyopojin]

Furthermore you're acting as if Koreans have never helped China out. You've forgotten the loads of Koreans who helped both Mao and Chiang during the civil war in China.




KMT opened Whampo Military Academy door to anti-Japan Korean nationalists for free training in the 1920's-1930's.

Many thousand Gaolibangzi ( ethnic Korean cops ) stationed in old Manchuria much more " cruel " than individual Japanese colonized there ( except for Unit 731 Biological Experiment ),NOT one have shown sympathies toward Chines population.

One Japanese diplomat in Europe during WW 2 issued many thousand visas to " Jews ",his story drama is presently air on KTSF weekend Japanese programming in San Francisco Bay Area ( N Calif ).

[bkim1974]

That's a very good point. I might be willing to accept the possibility if that's what was meant, that perhaps the borders within the peninsula itself were drawn incorrectly.

I've heard other theories that Paekchae actually had an empire that spanned from Tsingtao to Osaka. Perhaps if that were true, then some of Paekchae's Chinese battles could have taken place without marching past Koguryo. I won't accept that Shilla had any concession in Mainland China however.

so you ARE open to the possibility that the ancient Korean kingdoms could have possibly been located in mainland China..

[bkim1974]

I did mention that today's "China" mentality is sort of like the idea of America or Canada, a melting pot of diverse races. Chinese people didn't claim that Genghis Khan was chinese, he was definitely Mongolian but Mongolia was later part of China. Also, the faces of Mongolians have asiatic features and hence considered Asians.

We have to seperate ourselves into different time zones and eras and read the history accordingly and not let the past hatred pass on. I found many Korean readers become engrossed in the past and forget that we are living in a different world now.

I have a question that I could never figure out. During the Ming dynasty, Ming emperor sent troops to Korea to fight off the Japanese troops. It's sort of a biliateral deal they had back then. But how come Korean troops were never sent to help the Ming dynasty when they were attacked by the Ching/Jurchens ? It makes me wonder if China is in trouble, would NK or SK come by to assist ? I think it was never recorded in the history.

The answer is twofold. From what I understand the Ming were already battling the Ching during the Imjin War and an all out war between the Ming and the Ching happened not too long after the Imjin war ended. Considering the country was pretty much decimated during the Japanese invasion, I would have to believe Choson was in no condition to send troops to the Ming to help.

Another strong possiblity is perhaps the pro Ching faction of the Choson court won the political battle and prevented any help from being sent to the Ming. They figured if Choson helped the Ming and the Ching eventually took over China, there was hell to pay. In fact the Ching did not look too kindly upon Choson's past friendly relation with the Ming after they took over China. As you may be aware the Ching invaded Choson twice later on.

[bkim1974]

I did mention that today's "China" mentality is sort of like the idea of America or Canada, a melting pot of diverse races. Chinese people didn't claim that Genghis Khan was chinese, he was definitely Mongolian but Mongolia was later part of China. Also, the faces of Mongolians have asiatic features and hence considered Asians.

We have to seperate ourselves into different time zones and eras and read the history accordingly and not let the past hatred pass on. I found many Korean readers become engrossed in the past and forget that we are living in a different world now.

I have a question that I could never figure out. During the Ming dynasty, Ming emperor sent troops to Korea to fight off the Japanese troops. It's sort of a biliateral deal they had back then. But how come Korean troops were never sent to help the Ming dynasty when they were attacked by the Ching/Jurchens ? It makes me wonder if China is in trouble, would NK or SK come by to assist ? I think it was never recorded in the history.

Two reasons for that. Choson was pretty much decimated during the war and they were in no condition to help anyone out. Second the pro Ching faction propbably prevented any help from being sent to the Ming

[bkim1974]

We have to seperate ourselves into different time zones and eras and read the history accordingly and not let the past hatred pass on. I found many Korean readers become engrossed in the past and forget that we are living in a different world now.

.

I must agree that many Koreans are still hung up in the past, especially in regards to the hatred against Japanese. But the Chinese are just as guilty. Just ask Kyopojin.

[BeTheReds]

so you ARE open to the possibility that the ancient Korean kingdoms could have possibly been located in mainland China..

No. I'm open to the possibility that Paekchae might have been but it's really unlikely.

So we've got Koguryo in Manchuria and Paekchae in Tsingtao maybe. Shilla had nothing in China

[BeTheReds]

KMT opened Whampo Military Academy door to anti-Japan Korean nationalists for free training in the 1920's-1930's.

Many thousand Gaolibangzi ( ethnic Korean cops ) stationed in old Manchuria much more " cruel " than individual Japanese colonized there ( except for Unit 731 Biological Experiment ),NOT one have shown sympathies toward Chines population.



First, I don't understand what you are replying to.

Second, you're going by an example of indoctrinated cops. Wow, persuasive there. Wonderful.

It is a known fact that there were more than 20,000 Koreans in Mao's army, and there were about 15000 in Chiangs. If your example of indoctrinated cops was meant to dispel my facts.. then you've failed miserably.

[SunWuKong]

I have a question that I could never figure out. During the Ming dynasty, Ming emperor sent troops to Korea to fight off the Japanese troops. It's sort of a biliateral deal they had back then. But how come Korean troops were never sent to help the Ming dynasty when they were attacked by the Ching/Jurchens ?

easy question. Choson Korea was already conquered by the Manchus before the Manchus conquered Ming China.

[Aurutus]

The royal last name of the Choson dynasty was Yee not Kim.

You don't seem to understand the whole point of our discussion regarding the Quing dynasty. I never claimed that the Manchu dynasty was Korean and/or part of Korean history. There is no disputing that he Quing/Manchus have a distinct and seperate history from Korea. My point was there was could be a relation between the Quing and Koreans if you go back far enough.

And no Manchus and Koreans are somewhat related. They are both Tunguistic Altaic people.



If Koreans and the Jurchens were related, why wouldn't the Koreans wear pigtails ...instead the Joseon costumes and hairstyle followed closely to Ming's fashion and education system...? I believe the Jurchens were a different tribe altogether. The Jurchens were nomads, hunters, traders, fur coat makers...etc.

[kyopojin]

The Jurchens were nomads, hunters, traders, fur coat makers...etc.




You're CORRECT,Jurchens' ancestors were mainly " Malgal " Tungusic clan unrelated to great majority ancient Koreans of that time.

China's NE region ( old Manchuria ) was once a territory of numerous Tungusic tribes.

[BeTheReds]

I'm tired of this shit. Closing...

[BeTheReds]

Okay we've had time to cool down and maybe we can talk about the topic at hand. Speaking of history being wrong, why don't we use this opportunity to talk about the historical conflict in the northeast of China where some Koreans claim that China is distorting Korean history, and some Chinese are claiming that Koguryo was Chinese in origin....

That puts a different spin on the original thread, but still pretty intresting!

[colorred]

3. Wi dynasty records show they fough Beakche cavalry troops. If that was the case. Beakche troops would have to march past Kokuryo around the pennisula and to mainland China. Or Wi troops would have to meach INTO Korea past Kokuryo. Somehow I don't see Kokryo letting foreign troops in their territory. Beakche and Wi must have been neighboors in China.

4. There is a town called Beakche in Southern China. Locals say their town was founded by the ancestors who came to fight and settled in their town. (well this could be a coincidence).

5. Chinese records show Beackche troops numbered a million at their height. That is more than all the troops combined from the Chinese three kingdoms.

I would like to see the sources. If you can support with evidences, perhaps you can rewrite the whole chinese history.

[toothlog]

The Korean history as we know was written and modified during the Japanese occupation between 1910-1945. The first act of the Japanese was to burn 300,000 Korean history books. It took three days and nights to do do that.



you got any source for this?




They feared it because Korean history spanned 7,000 years and ruled half of China at one point.

korean wetdreams
nice to know that the korean history spanned more years than the egyptions adn the summerians.
really?? what period that korea ruled half of china?
show me historical records that supports your claim.



Yes the ancient three kingdoms of Korea were actually located in Manchuria and Southeast of China.

only the ko gu ryo kingdom located in southern manchuria,while siila and baekche were located in korean pennisula

if they were located in southeast china,then how come all the archelogical sites were found in korea not in se china?





Beakche and Wi must have been neighboors in China.

wei dynasty was located in zhongyuan(central china around henan) while baekche was located in southwest of korea,how could they been neighboors?


4. There is a town called Beakche in Southern China. Locals say their town was founded by the ancestors who came to fight and settled in their town. (well this could be a coincidence).

care to show some sources?


5. Chinese records show Beackche troops numbered a million at their height. That is more than all the troops combined from the Chinese three kingdoms.

the whole population of baekche at the time was only around 600000--700000, so where is this million soldiers comes from??? or are koreans just bad at math?

http: //baekje.chungnam.go.kr/eng/new_hist/main/out_people. htm

according to Samguk yusa, there is a record that there were 152,300 households when Baekje was in the highest stage of prosperity. As it is not clear when Baekje was in the highest stage of prosperity, we have many problems using the source. But referring to the result of the study that the population got to 700,000 ~ 800,000 during the reign of King Geunchogo, the middle or latter half of the 4th century, we can guess that it was the population of the 4th ~ 5th centuries when Baekje concentrated on the territorial expansion.
The population was 700,000 ~ 800,000 in the 4th ~ 5th centuries and was 1,200,000 in the 7th century, and Baekje people may not have been free from the caste system. So, we can devide Baekje people into several groups; kings and royalty, nobles and bureaucracy, common people, slaves and so on. But it is difficult to know in detail because there are few documentary sources.





7. Koguryo waged a 10 year war with the Seljuk Turks. This would have been impossible if Koguryo was located in Korea.


ko gu ryo was partly located in southern manchuria and partly in north korea.

8. The last name of the Ching emperors translate as "Love and remember Shilla" The Ching considered themselves descendats of the Shilla people.

you mean the aisin gioro clan

The word aisin means gold in the Manchu language, and "gioro" means clan in the Manchu language.

it has nothing to do with koreans.





enough of your bs.