OSX Leopard

[yoMAMA]

anyone getting it when it comes out?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html

[Faithless]

Within a few weeks, I will be buying a mac laptop. It will have one of the Windows emulators.

What is the upgrade licensing like for each new OS?

[bluemonq]

$150 for a copy. Sometimes they do discounts for small releases.

[yoMAMA]

Within a few weeks, I will be buying a mac laptop. It will have one of the Windows emulators.

you are getting a macbook or mb pro?

i have a macbook and so far i love it.

[zarathustra]

Leopard will be amazing. There's lots of information already available about it. People have been very willing to share.

There are also features that Apple will not make public or put in the preview copies available to developers until after Vista is closer to release.

It will also be significantly faster than Tiger on Intel Macs. 10.5 Leopard and 10.6 will take much more advantage of core duos and multiple processors; it will also be more optimized for Intel. They haven't had the available time yet to make all their apps like iPhoto as optimized as they possibly can for Intel.

It will cost $129 like all previous versions of OS X (10.1 was free).

[TB4000]

Considering how much Tiger was of no use to me, probably not. It's not as easy to work with as people assume.

[yoMAMA]

Considering how much Tiger was of no use to me, probably not. It's not as easy to work with as people assume.

dude you have a mac?

[TB4000]

^A PC at home, a Mac at work.

[yoMAMA]

^A PC at home, a Mac at work.

cool setup.

I have a mac at work (POS os9) and a mac at home (macbook with osx tiger, my baby) :biggrin:

[hooligan]

cool setup.

I have a mac at work (POS os9) and a mac at home (macbook with osx tiger, my baby) :biggrin:

If it runs os9, you can buy an upgrade via the educational section for pretty cheap I hear.

[bluemonq]

His IT department at work might not approve of him randomly installing a new OS :rolleyes:

[hooligan]

well .fuck them then.

[Faithless]

you are getting a macbook or mb pro?

i have a macbook and so far i love it.
I've been told to wait for the new Intel Xeon 7100 (Tulsa) processor to be installed with the machine. :frown:

Will that happen soon, if at all?

[yoMAMA]

I've been told to wait for the new Intel Xeon 7100 (Tulsa) processor to be installed with the machine. :frown:

Will that happen soon, if at all?

tulsa?

all i've heard from internet rumors is that apple will put in the merom processors into the mb and mbp.

[Faithless]

tulsa?

all i've heard from internet rumors is that apple will put in the merom processors into the mb and mbp.
Fuck! Trying to keep up with Intel's pruduct revamps is like keeping up with Microsoft's OS releases!

Xeon (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/xeon/index.htm) and Core-2 Duo (Merom) (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2duo/index.htm) are for different platforms?

Core-2 Duo coming to MacBook Pro in Sept. 2006 (http://www.itechnews.net/2006/08/24/core-2-duo-macbook-pro-coming-in-september/).

[thaite]

Within a few weeks, I will be buying a mac laptop. It will have one of the Windows emulators.


I'm getting a new Macbook this weekend. My current laptop is pretty trashed, and won't do for school purposes.

Now, does anybody have a spare CD of Windows XP service pack 2 laying around? I need it, seriously.

[hooligan]

Come on, those core duo chips are going to be on several levels of awesome.

[thaite]

true. My coworker has a Macbook, and that thing boots up in around 15 seconds.

[DaMuo]

I believe the Merom processor is "base" architecture that specific product lines are then tailored from. So, Core Duo is targeting Desktop/Mobile and Xeon for server, but all based on same architecture.

Fuck! Trying to keep up with Intel's pruduct revamps is like keeping up with Microsoft's OS releases!

Xeon (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/xeon/index.htm) and Core-2 Duo (Merom) (http://www.intel.com/products/processor/core2duo/index.htm) are for different platforms?

Core-2 Duo coming to MacBook Pro in Sept. 2006 (http://www.itechnews.net/2006/08/24/core-2-duo-macbook-pro-coming-in-september/).

[bluemonq]

I believe the Merom processor is "base" architecture that specific product lines are then tailored from. So, Core Duo is targeting Desktop/Mobile and Xeon for server, but all based on same architecture.
That is incorrect, but only barely so. First, Core Duo is the name for the family of products that use two Yonah cores per chip (Core Solo uses...one of them per chip). Core 2 Duo is the series with new microarchitecture (derived from the Yonah). C2D encompasses three sub-brands: Conroe, Merom, and Woodcrest. Woodcrest, better known as the Xeon series, is intended for server/workstation usage. Merom is for mobile platforms, while Conroe is for desktops. All three are indeed based upon the same microarchitecture, differing only in bus speeds (communication with memory and other computer components), socket interface, and power consumption.

[DaMuo]

C2D encompasses three sub-brands: Conroe, Merom, and Woodcrest. Woodcrest, better known as the Xeon series, is intended for server/workstation usage.

These are code names for processors and not brands. But yes, these are all based on the same microarchitecture. I believe, however, Merom is generally considered the first instantiation of the new architecture.

[yoMAMA]

true. My coworker has a Macbook, and that thing boots up in around 15 seconds.

yeah my mb boots up to the login screen in like 5 to 6 seconds.

and then once i enter my pw, it takes about another 4 to 5 seconds for everything to load up.

although I still hasn't tested the core duo's raw power yet (will be doing some imovie editing though, so I'll see how it goes), but right now I'm just doing e-mail/web surfing and word processing, tasks that can be done perfectly well on a 800 mhz G4.

Come on, those core duo chips are going to be on several levels of awesome.

and the coreduo 2!

I'm getting a new Macbook this weekend. My current laptop is pretty trashed, and won't do for school purposes.

Now, does anybody have a spare CD of Windows XP service pack 2 laying around? I need it, seriously.

congrats dude, that's awesome, welcome to the yw mb/mbp owner's club! (passes the secret key)

as for the windows xp, i have the cd, but i got it in 2002 before sp2 so it won't work. I've been tempted to try boot camp....but....

why do i want to bring all those nasty viruses and spywares into my mb?

:wink:

[Tao]

i can't wait until intel releases the core 2 twice II duo double data bi pumped chip.

but seriously, the intel naming scheme for their chips are horrible. who the hell came up with the imaginative name like core 2 duo, yeah real effort there.

[yoMAMA]

who the hell came up with the imaginative name like core 2 duo, yeah real effort there.

duo core,

do more.

:wink:

[thaite]

as for the windows xp, i have the cd, but i got it in 2002 before sp2 so it won't work. I've been tempted to try boot camp....but....

why do i want to bring all those nasty viruses and spywares into my mb?

:wink:


I don't really want to run windows, but I have to run a few key apps for my grad program, and the only alternative is buying a wintel machine. Seems easier to create the windows partition on my mac with my apps, and clone the partition as a backup image so if I ever get a virus I can always wipe it clean and copy it over.

Anyway, I hear that boot camp is better than parallels, at least for now.

[Tao]

speaking of windows OSes, have you guys seen the pricing on the vista ultimate? holy fuck, 300+ dollars for a hunking piece of junk from microsoft...that's insane.

[thaite]

Here's a tutorial for running Boot Camp.

http://images.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/pdf/Boot_Camp_Beta_Setup_Guide.pdf

[DaMuo]

speaking of windows OSes, have you guys seen the pricing on the vista ultimate? holy fuck, 300+ dollars for a hunking piece of junk from microsoft...that's insane.

Yeah, what a great way to start alienating customers--especially since half the world can't afford that kind of dough. I have already made the decision that XP is the last MS os for me. It's either going to be OSX or Linux or FreeBSD from here on out.

[Atealtha]

Yeah, what a great way to start alienating customers--especially since half the world can't afford that kind of dough.

Wow you talk like Apple is cheap.

[Tao]

Wow you talk like Apple is cheap.
well for a stand alone os software, relatively it's cheap. apple's stayed with the 129 bucks pricing for each of it's successive os x iterations.

plus if you saw steve job's keynote at wwdc, he compared the same specs for a mac pro with that of a dell computer, with the mac pro coming out significantly cheaper than the dell.

[bluemonq]

These are code names for processors and not brands. But yes, these are all based on the same microarchitecture. I believe, however, Merom is generally considered the first instantiation of the new architecture.
Uh, no. Conroe came out a month before Merom did. And contrary to your original post, Merom is not the name of the architecture. Core is the name of the microarchitecture. At the same time, though Conroe, Merom, and Woodcrest were code names, Intel Marketing continues to use Conroe and Merom in reference to their sub-brands in their material. If it's good enough for Intel Marketing, it's good enough for me.
and the coreduo 2!
There is no CoreDuo 2, only the Core 2 Duo.
speaking of windows OSes, have you guys seen the pricing on the vista ultimate? holy fuck, 300+ dollars for a hunking piece of junk from microsoft...that's insane.
Yeah, what a great way to start alienating customers--especially since half the world can't afford that kind of dough. I have already made the decision that XP is the last MS os for me. It's either going to be OSX or Linux or FreeBSD from here on out.
Why your average user be even running vista ultimate, I don't know. Microsoft will continue to make its money on OEM sales, which will be mostly Home, Home Premium (aka MCE), and Business (aka Professional).
well for a stand alone os software, relatively it's cheap. apple's stayed with the 129 bucks pricing for each of it's successive os x iterations.
Oh good. So can you point me to some of those standalone OS software for installation on a whitebox machine that I built myself? What's that? It's part of Apple's TAC that I have to install it on an Apple-manufactured machine? Oh darn. And for those of you keeping score, if one had bought all the point releases from the original Cheetah to Tiger, it would have cost you almost $500. And it wasn't until they released Jaguar (10.2) until people widely considered it to be the first good release. And mind you, Jaguar wasn't a free upgrade; only Puma (10.1) was a free upgrade, containing a plethora of performance tweaks to the sluggish Cheetah, and some missing pieces of their multimedia machine...like freakin' DVD playback!
plus if you saw steve job's keynote at wwdc, he compared the same specs for a mac pro with that of a dell computer, with the mac pro coming out significantly cheaper than the dell.
Because people looking for a cheap, baseline PC are in the market for a four-core machine with dual-link DVI.

[Tao]

Oh good. So can you point me to some of those standalone OS software for installation on a whitebox machine that I built myself? What's that? It's part of Apple's TAC that I have to install it on an Apple-manufactured machine? Oh darn. And for those of you keeping score, if one had bought all the point releases from the original Cheetah to Tiger, it would have cost you almost $500. And it wasn't until they released Jaguar (10.2) until people widely considered it to be the first good release. And mind you, Jaguar wasn't a free upgrade; only Puma (10.1) was a free upgrade, containing a plethora of performance tweaks to the sluggish Cheetah, and some missing pieces of their multimedia machine...like freakin' DVD playback!

sure if you wanna be stuck up about it, you can add up the costs that way. but hell, the apple os does "just work" unlike microsoft's, so imo that makes it worth a lot more, just the quality and intuitiveness of their os.

Because people looking for a cheap, baseline PC are in the market for a four-core machine with dual-link DVI.
well they have the mac mini for that. as well as the imac

[bluemonq]

sure if you wanna be stuck up about it, you can add up the costs that way. but hell, the apple os does "just work" unlike microsoft's, so imo that makes it worth a lot more, just the quality and intuitiveness of their os.
Looks like someone wants to pretend that OSX 10.0 and 10.1 never happened. Meanwhile, the only issues I've ever had on Windows XP PCs is after a hardware failure, like a hard drive dying on me or a video card overheating. Windows XP never just up and died on me, never got a virus, never got a single piece of spyware. I conclude that if one of these things have occured to you, either (a) I have had monumental luck in the past 5 years, or (b) you're doing things the wrong way. And I *still* haven't been able to find a single Mac user who can explain to me why the OSX cursor that shows the computer is busy is a bloody spinning rainbow beach ball.
well they have the mac mini for that. as well as the imac
By the time you add a decent display, keyboard, and mouse to that mac mini, it will cost more than a comparable Dell. And when you move onto a new iMac, you effectively have to toss the old display. Oh, did I mention that Apple has one of the worst environmental policies amongst major electronics manufacturers according to a report by Greenpeace. How the hell did Dell score higher? I mean, seriously, WTF mate? Though I'll admit Apple has a slick pamphlet on the importance of e-recycling...if you can find it.
http://images.macnn.com/macnn/images08/grn_250806_applereport2.jpg


If you want "really cheap", well I can get Windows XP to comfortably run on a five year-old machine without spending a single dime on anything except a copy of XP itself. Over the years I have converted over two dozen desktops and laptops that would otherwise probably have been dumped in a landfill. They all got modernized for as low as $50, with DVD burners, USB 2.0, and other hardware upgrades. Trying doing *that* with OSX on your Tangerine iMac G3.

[Atealtha]

I watched the entire WWDC06 keynote. It was impressive. Finally OS X is really beefing up their software, but nothing I am interested in.

Time Machine? There is Subversion. I could care less about the "travel through time" animation.
Spaces? I've been using that for years.

What annoyed me was how they talked about Vista copying OSX, but Leopard is just copying what Unix had for years. Where do they want Microsoft to put the calendar's dock? Up there ass? It's stupid of Apple to say Microsoft is copying them. They don't own a monopoly on ideas.

I would like a screaming fast machine, though. But we don't need a Mac for that. Regarding cheapness, do you see how expensive it is to upgrade? $400 for a 500 gig Sata 3G/s drive. The same is on Newegg for $200. $300 for a gig of RAM? $200 for 2 Gigs (2x1gig) DDR2 675 PC5400, comparable to the Mac's. Although the 4 channel-ness is impressive but I don't know how much of an improvement that is. I guess it's for the quad-core.

Yes, you can buy from Newegg and upgrade the Macs. But you are doing so because Mac parts are more expensive. As far as I can tell, you can upgrade anything except the RAM, because I can't find FB-DIMM anywhere on Newegg.

The biggest plus is that Leopard is 64bit and multi-core aware, I think. Not enough for me to switch yet. The keynote made me more aware of the fanboi-ism, even in the development community and that turned me off.

[bluemonq]

Don't get me wrong; I think *all* operating systems delivered so far - including both Windows (XP and what we've seen of Vista) and the multitude of Linux distros - are a long ways away from what I would call ideal. The fact that Microsoft insists on supporting components from before the dot-com era instead of just trashing the current codebase and starting fresh, like they said Longhorn was supposed to do, is holding them back and slowing down the entire system. At the very least they should offer a legacy-free version; for web browsing, word processing, and basic multimedia, most people wouldn't notice. If you want to attack Microsoft somewhere, there you go; I've just offered you a juicy fastball right down the plate.

Personally I think Symphony OS had a lot of promise in terms of interface (Mezzo on top of Debian). The main developer has run into personal financial issues, so it's been shelved temporarily; you can take a look at it here, or try the Google cache (The Wayback Machine doesn't seem to picking it up):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_OS

[DaMuo]

I think we need to differentiate between hardcore geeks who can setup operating systems on cool new hardware and enjoy administrating it over the long term and people without deep computer knowledge or don't want to waste time mucking with the OS and want to get stuff done.

It is true you can make XP relatively secure and stable provided you know what you are doing -- patches, software, configs -- but for somebody who does not want to deal with a lot of administration (XP/Linux/etc...) i think Apple provide much more bang for the buck.

I've run most major operating systems in the past as a sysadmin, and at the end of the day I just pull out my powerbook to get work done rather than spend hours on google trying to figure issues/problems/setting/configs. I'm willing to pay a little more for not having to muck with the OS too much. But that's what I'm after.

So yes, I can get a system for cheap. But I think my time is worth more...

[bluemonq]

It is true you can make XP relatively secure and stable provided you know what you are doing -- patches, software, configs -- but for somebody who does not want to deal with a lot of administration (XP/Linux/etc...) i think Apple provide much more bang for the buck.
Windows XP SP2 machines: Firewall on by default. Automatic Updates on by default. Viruses and vulnerabilities from other programs result from their producers' oversights. Not Window XP's fault. In fact, when I setup PCs for people, I find that wiping out the manufacturer's crap install (admittedly, they subsidize the computer, so...I'll just live with it and wipe them) with their "free trials" of Norton or McAfee or whatever, results in a more stable machine. Not hard to do. Ever computer that I sold in the past, I included a handy printed-out checklist.
I've run most major operating systems in the past as a sysadmin, and at the end of the day I just pull out my powerbook to get work done rather than spend hours on google trying to figure issues/problems/setting/configs. I'm willing to pay a little more for not having to muck with the OS too much. But that's what I'm after.
If you seal up a machine like Apple does (Mac Pro notwithstanding, but those buyers are usually a lot more technologically-educated) so that upgrades are minimal, and have a limited amount of peripheral manufacturers (relative to Microsoft's strategy of supporting everything up to and including an internet-enabled kitchen sink) of course it's going to be more stable. Seriously. Grab a pre-Lenovo ThinkPad, download a cleaned image of Windows XP SP2 from BitTorrent (using your own installation key now!) and install over the one that comes with the machine, keep any hardware installations the same as what you have with your PowerBook and it'll run just as well as Mac OSX day in, day out.
So yes, I can get a system for cheap. But I think my time is worth more...
If you don't tinker with Windows XP, it'll run just as well. And if you do, it makes it work even better. Maybe it's just because I'm a college student. But if I can save $200 or more myself or for my classmates by just putting an extra half-hour at the start, well... have you ever worked a $400/hr job before? I sure as hell haven't, and that's money well spent on...er...well, I guess booze and pot.

Personally, I think there should be a computing license that people need to get before they can get their own computer. It would result in more technologically-savvy people...or at least get some more people to realize that opening every single attachment is a bad idea. It would also be a first step to preventing those goddman Best Buy/Circuit City salespeople from pulling a fast one.

[DaMuo]

In fact, when I setup PCs for people, I find that wiping out the manufacturer's crap install (admittedly, they subsidize the computer, so...I'll just live with it and wipe them) with their "free trials" of Norton or McAfee or whatever, results in a more stable machine. Not hard to do. Ever computer that I sold in the past, I included a handy printed-out checklist.

If you seal up a machine like Apple does (Mac Pro notwithstanding, but those buyers are usually a lot more technologically-educated) so that upgrades are minimal, and have a limited amount of peripheral manufacturers (relative to Microsoft's strategy of supporting everything up to and including an internet-enabled kitchen sink) of course it's going to be more stable. Seriously. Grab a pre-Lenovo ThinkPad, download a cleaned image of Windows XP SP2 from BitTorrent (using your own installation key now!) and install over the one that comes with the machine, keep any hardware installations the same as what you have with your PowerBook and it'll run just as well as Mac OSX day in, day out.

If you don't tinker with Windows XP, it'll run just as well. And if you do, it makes it work even better. Maybe it's just because I'm a college student. But if I can save $200 or more myself or for my classmates by just putting an extra half-hour at the start, well... have you ever worked a $400/hr job before? I sure as hell haven't, and that's money well spent on...er...well, I guess booze and pot.


Bluemonq, not trying to disagree but I just wanted to point out the fact that time = $. I can guarantee doing all that work is a bit more than 1/2 at the start. Note that you did have to do a bit of work to just get the system stable and secure. Also, not everbody has an inkling of wiping a system, downloading a stable release of XP via BitTorrent, restoring an image, etc. etc. etc. which requires a fast internet connection and time.

I want to pull out the computer, turn it on, and use it like an appliance. One day maybe life will be as easy. That is why when everything is sealed up and "ready to use" it suits my needs a little better... it's well worth $200.00 which will save me time and effort over the next three years. i.e. I don't have to re-install Windows XP every 6 month...

[Tao]

Looks like someone wants to pretend that OSX 10.0 and 10.1 never happened. Meanwhile, the only issues I've ever had on Windows XP PCs is after a hardware failure, like a hard drive dying on me or a video card overheating. Windows XP never just up and died on me, never got a virus, never got a single piece of spyware. I conclude that if one of these things have occured to you, either (a) I have had monumental luck in the past 5 years, or (b) you're doing things the wrong way.

well you're obviously in the minority.
If you seal up a machine like Apple does (Mac Pro notwithstanding, but those buyers are usually a lot more technologically-educated) so that upgrades are minimal, and have a limited amount of peripheral manufacturers (relative to Microsoft's strategy of supporting everything up to and including an internet-enabled kitchen sink) of course it's going to be more stable. Seriously. Grab a pre-Lenovo ThinkPad, download a cleaned image of Windows XP SP2 from BitTorrent (using your own installation key now!) and install over the one that comes with the machine, keep any hardware installations the same as what you have with your PowerBook and it'll run just as well as Mac OSX day in, day out.
note how much effort you had to put into doing this just so you can have a trouble free system. i dunno about you, but i can't spend my entire day re-installing oses, and my programs on my computer. i have way too much to do to be bothered with that shit.

And I *still* haven't been able to find a single Mac user who can explain to me why the OSX cursor that shows the computer is busy is a bloody spinning rainbow beach ball.

if that's the biggest complaint you have about os x, then yeah, you really did a good job convincing me:rolleyes: . and if you're gonna use puma as example of os x's deficencies, then you better make a note of just how buggy windows xp was when it first came out. i'll give you one example right off the bat, those annoying window's messenger ads spammers would exploit on the systems. talk about annoying.



Oh, did I mention that Apple has one of the worst environmental policies amongst major electronics manufacturers according to a report by Greenpeace. How the hell did Dell score higher? I mean, seriously, WTF mate? Though I'll admit Apple has a slick pamphlet on the importance of e-recycling...if you can find it.
http://images.macnn.com/macnn/images08/grn_250806_applereport2.jpg


umm..off topic? sounds like you have some issues with people who don't see things your way.

[bluemonq]

I can guarantee doing all that work is a bit more than 1/2 at the start.
Setting aside obtaining the Windows install disk for the moment, here are the three steps:
1) Installation: 7 minutes. Yes, you read that correctly. It is entirely possible to cut down installation time of a copy of Windows down to 7 minutes.
2) Updates: ~20 minutes. Grabbing any needed patches and updates from WinDiz (http://windowsupdate.62nds.com/). None of that WGA crap. Future updates are easily automated through Firefox.
3) There is no step 3.

"Well, gee," you might say, "What about setting up the network? Or installing applications?" Do you consider those issues with setting up a Mac?
Note that you did have to do a bit of work to just get the system stable and secure.
No, I did a bit of work to get the system to my liking. Any copy of XP SP2 is secure out of the box (minus the patches, something Apple has been releasing in batches as of late also), assuming that the user doesn't open an unexpected attachment from someone they don't even know or the shiny game on some two-bit website. Remember the recent hullabaloo about vulnerabilities in OSX revolving around attachments? Mac advocates brushed it off, saying it was merely an issue of the user having exectued a Trojan that entered through a third-party app, not really a fault of the OS itself. Well guess what? That's the majority of the vulnerabilities in Windows too!
Also, not everbody has an inkling of wiping a system, downloading a stable release of XP via BitTorrent, restoring an image, etc. etc. etc. which requires a fast internet connection and time.You're right, they don't. Most people also don't know how to change their oil. That's why during the time I worked as a computer technician I offered a setup service for $25. I get $25 for initializing a nearly completely-automated process, they save *nearly* $200 by not buying a Mac and also get a handy annotated, color-coded checklist and starting guide that took me 20 minutes to compile. A win-win for both the customer and me.
That is why when everything is sealed up and "ready to use" it suits my needs a little better... it's well worth $200.00 which will save me time and effort over the next three years. i.e. I don't have to re-install Windows XP every 6 month...
Question: What version of OSX did you start off with, and which point releases did you get? Also, will you be getting Leopard? How much time between each upgrade?

I don't know what you were doing to your poor WinXP machine that made you have to reinstall it every 6 months, but neither did I, nor have my customers, nor my floormates at my dorms have ever had to reinstall Windows (excluding a hard drive failure).

well you're obviously in the minority.
Hmm. Somebody didn't note (b).

note how much effort you had to put into doing this just so you can have a trouble free system. i dunno about you, but i can't spend my entire day re-installing oses, and my programs on my computer. i have way too much to do to be bothered with that shit.
Note my 3-step response to DaMuo at top
if that's the biggest complaint you have about os x, then yeah, you really did a good job convincing me:rolleyes:
Trinity?
Help!
:: WHOOOSH ::
Do you want me to do an entire page on various unintuitive elements in OSX? Or OSX and Windows? Hell, let's throw in FreeBSD. Do you really want me to? Cause I've been studying human interface design for the past while. We can even discuss the benefits and liabilities of hiding the computer interface behind an entire extended set of metaphors that rely upon other items that the pre-wired generation were regularly exposed to.
and if you're gonna use puma as example of os x's deficencies, then you better make a note of just how buggy windows xp was when it first came out. i'll give you one example right off the bat, those annoying window's messenger ads spammers would exploit on the systems. talk about annoying.
DaMuo wanted to compare his pre-SP2 experience with what I assume is 10.3 or later. I am fully willing to acknowledge that pre-SP2 is a complete piece of shit (I'm not even going to use the acronym it's that bad). However, comparing that to OSX 10.3 or later is dishonest. If he wants to bring up pre-SP2 issues, then I'm going to introduce Cheetah and Puma.
umm..off topic? sounds like you have some issues with people who don't see things your way.
Very much relevant. DaMuo brought up the mac mini and the iMac as examples of computers for value-minded people. Meanwhile he brought in the issue of time = $$. Well then, fine, let's bring in other important issues, like a computer's ecological footprint. You're paying for cleanup of toxic dumps in taxes and higher waste disposal fees.

[Atealtha]

Bluemonq, if you and I join forces we might be able to get rid of those Mac fan boys.

Or maybe they'll just destroy us due to sheer number.

[yoMAMA]

Bluemonq, if you and I join forces we might be able to get rid of those Mac fan boys.

Or maybe they'll just destroy us due to sheer number.

I like macs, but I'm first and foremost a Sony fanboy.

And I *still* haven't been able to find a single Mac user who can explain to me why the OSX cursor that shows the computer is busy is a bloody spinning rainbow beach ball.


because macs are gay.

:wink:

Well then, fine, let's bring in other important issues, like a computer's ecological footprint. You're paying for cleanup of toxic dumps in taxes and higher waste disposal fees.

I'm quite surprised that macs scored that low.

I've always thought macs had a image of being clean and green.

[DaMuo]

Setting aside obtaining the Windows install disk for the moment, here are the three steps:
1) Installation: 7 minutes. Yes, you read that correctly. It is entirely possible to cut down installation time of a copy of Windows down to 7 minutes.
2) Updates: ~20 minutes. Grabbing any needed patches and updates from WinDiz (http://windowsupdate.62nds.com/). None of that WGA crap. Future updates are easily automated through Firefox.
3) There is no step 3.
...
You're right, they don't. Most people also don't know how to change their oil. That's why during the time I worked as a computer technician I offered a setup service for $25.


I still think you are missing the point. YOU can do a setup and all this whizbang because you have specialized knowledge. For the average person this is a significant task and how would they evenknow about WinDiz and why would they not trust Microsoft who orginated the software?


No, I did a bit of work to get the system to my liking. Any copy of XP SP2 is secure out of the box (minus the patches, something Apple has been releasing in batches as of late also),

Mac advocates brushed it off, saying it was merely an issue of the user having exectued a Trojan that entered through a third-party app, not really a fault of the OS itself. Well guess what? That's the majority of the vulnerabilities in Windows too!


That is a huge assumption that XP SP2 is secure out of the box. Much of the security ans instability is inherent in the architecture of the operating system. i.e. having the GUI right in the kernel. How TCPIP is implemented, etc.


Question: What version of OSX did you start off with, and which point releases did you get? Also, will you be getting Leopard? How much time between each upgrade?

I don't know what you were doing to your poor WinXP machine that made you have to reinstall it every 6 months, but neither did I, nor have my customers, nor my floormates at my dorms have ever had to reinstall Windows (excluding a hard drive failure).


I've used OSX since Jaguar. I will be getting Leopard.

So you are saying you have never had to reinstall windows on the same machine?? I bet you'd get some good performance back if you did...


Do you want me to do an entire page on various unintuitive elements in OSX? Or OSX and Windows? Hell, let's throw in FreeBSD. Do you really want me to? Cause I've been studying human interface design for the past while. We can even discuss the benefits and liabilities of hiding the computer interface behind an entire extended set of metaphors that rely upon other items that the pre-wired generation were regularly exposed to.


Please do illuminate on FreeBSD one of my favorite OSes and Human Interface Design... FreeBSD doesn't have a human interface except for the command line unless you are talking about GNOME and KDE.

Uh, no. Conroe came out a month before Merom did. And contrary to your original post, Merom is not the name of the architecture. Core is the name of the microarchitecture. At the same time, though Conroe, Merom, and Woodcrest were code names, Intel Marketing continues to use Conroe and Merom in reference to their sub-brands in their material. If it's good enough for Intel Marketing, it's good enough for me.

I beg to differ because Core is the name of the product family brand and general architecture family. Merom (etc.) is the code names for specific microarchitecture that are in development. That is why you never see a product being sold as "Merom" -- you are improperly using the term sub-brand here. Intel can sneak in a non-Core processor in and call it Core if they want. Marketing literature will say things like "based on Merom" but never call it Merom and instead use the proper Intel Branded Product Name and product naming codes.

[didu]

FreeBSD has nothing to do with the GUI, the GUI is just a window manager and it runs on top of the kernel. The core functionalities of FreeBSD, or any other OS for that matter, are

(1) Memory management -- loading programs and data from the H/D to RAM and keeping the different virtual memory spaces separate.
(2) Process scheduleling -- deciding when and how to run new processes.
(3) Interfacing with peripheral devices -- i.e. understanding how to read from/write to hard drives, cdroms, network cards, mice, etc.
(4) A file system.

The fancy GUIs from OSX or Windows or Linux are just applications that run on top of the kernels of the OS, they should not be used as the only indicators to judge OSes.

Unix type of OS are inherently more secure than the current and previous generation of Windows because unix was designed as a timeshareing system -- meaning it allows multiple users to run multiple processes individually at the same time. Therefore, unix systems have inbuild user-id for both files (which also include devices such as soundcards, cdroms, etc) and processes, and a strict permission system, this means that people who have no authority to access a particular file/process will never be able to do so.

Furthermore, the open-source nature of linux/freeBSD type of OSes is such that everyone can see what the code is doing and as soon as they see a problem, someone will fix it and release a patch. With windows, only MS has the code, so hackers can just keep attacking the OS and its applications until they find a hole and exploit it -- then MS will release a patch.

[DaMuo]

Amen. Security through obscurity is horrible. Open Source is the way to go. It's like having full disclosure.

[yoMAMA]

Amen. Security through obscurity is horrible. Open Source is the way to go. It's like having full disclosure.

is osx open source?

i know it's based on some forms of unix.

[DaMuo]

is osx open source?

i know it's based on some forms of unix.

Based on BSD but only the OS level, not any of the Carbon GUI. They recently pulled openDarwin I think... too bad.

[zarathustra]

Fink was always more popular than OpenDarwin. :)