Stop blaming others for rising gas prices!

[Yeahman]

It's the government! Bush needs to do something! It's Cheney's fault!
It's the oil companies! They're making too much! Tax them!

It's supply and demand, people. Want to help reduce prices? Stop buying Hummers.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Oh, don't worry, I never buy hummers, I get them for free.

[pikachupacabra]

I think in the long run, higher gas prices will end up being better for the country. Short term, we're all gonna bitch and whine.

[TB4000]

We all need to walk more anyway.

[Fireblade]

time to turn to biodiesel folks.


mmm.... fries.

[yoMAMA]

all i know is, Detroit is screwed with ever higher gas prices.

:biggrin:

[SunWuKong]

sure it's supply and demand. oil execs demand seven-figure paychecks, and the consumers supply them with that.

[DragonKnight]

Better and faster public transportation without the jacked up prices. Especially out here in California. I'm already doing my part by regulating my car to weekends-only.

[Craig]

Better and faster public transportation without the jacked up prices. Especially out here in California. I'm already doing my part by regulating my car to weekends-only.Don't know about Southern California, but in Santa Clara county, the VTA (Valley Transportation Authority) is a major rip-off. If my work wasn't giving us yearly passes, it would actually be cheaper for me to drive to work than use the local public transportation system. It is even more of a rip off since the transportation system is already getting lots of money through taxes, etc. However, since work provides us with passes I am basically using my car on weekends only now.

[SunWuKong]

Don't know about Southern California, but in Santa Clara county, the VTA (Valley Transportation Authority) is a major rip-off. If my work wasn't giving us yearly passes, it would actually be cheaper for me to drive to work than use the local public transportation system. It is even more of a rip off since the transportation system is already getting lots of money through taxes, etc. However, since work provides us with passes I am basically using my car on weekends only now.

my work pays for my public transport, too. but even if it doesn't, i'd still take public transport even if it was more expensive. i can't stand city traffic during rush hour.

[lethal]

I'm going to get a motorcycle to get better gas mileage.

[SunWuKong]

I'm going to get a motorcycle to get better gas mileage.

get a vespa!

[Craig]

my work pays for my public transport, too. but even if it doesn't, i'd still take public transport even if it was more expensive. i can't stand city traffic during rush hour.The public transportation system here is much worse than in Washington D.C. Over here it's unreliable and slower than regular traffic, I live about 6 miles from work and usually it takes me about 45-50 minutes if I time everything well. However, oftentimes it takes 1.25 - 1.5 hours, and sometimes even 2 hours or more to get home using the system. As additional reference points, I live just off the street with the main bus lines for the system and my employer is one of the top 5 employers (top 3 tech - regarding total number of employees) in the area (the only one with a bus transit center named after it).

[tommyhtown]

Public transportation in Houston? Please.... I wish I can take the bus or something to work but then my commute time will be 3 hrs plus instead of an hour. Yeah we have a lightrail system but you have to live in specific area to get on it. The houses in that area are expensive unless you are willing to live in a really bad neighborhood.

Car pooling is not an option since I don't know anyone who works at the same place as I do. Plus, I am an independent consultant. I jump from project to project, client to client.

Also here in Houston, I see people are so fond of trucks, SUV, hummers and other gaz-guzzlling cars. I don't feel bad for them for paying around $80 to fill up your big SUVs.

[lethal]

get a vespa!

Not unless I want to die on my 60 mile each way commute on the NJ Turnpike.

My commute via public transit costs $16.65 per day and takes about 2 hours. This includes walking time of a little less than half an hour.

If I drive, it is about an hour 15 minutes door to door, but it would cost about 4-5 gallons of gas and also $8.20 in tolls. I think they're roughly the same, but all in all, I'd rather sit on the train and sleep than drive and have to be alert.

On a motorcycle, I can probably do it in 2 gallons and the tolls would be less and I can go faster, so it would take less than an hour. Of course, I'd have to be even more alert than if I'm in my car.

[yoMAMA]

i can't stand city traffic during rush hour.

exactly.

not to mention all the fuel wasted during idling and emissions to the atomsphere.

man i hate minnesota for having crappy public transportation.

[SunWuKong]

exactly.

not to mention all the fuel wasted during idling and emissions to the atomsphere.

man i hate minnesota for having crappy public transportation.

don't you have a light rail in Minneapolis now?

there's not enough population density in Minneapolis to justify good public transport.

[LaiSteve66]

Public transportation in Houston? Please.... I wish I can take the bus or something to work but then my commute time will be 3 hrs plus instead of an hour. Yeah we have a lightrail system but you have to live in specific area to get on it. The houses in that area are expensive unless you are willing to live in a really bad neighborhood.

Car pooling is not an option since I don't know anyone who works at the same place as I do. Plus, I am an independent consultant. I jump from project to project, client to client.

Also here in Houston, I see people are so fond of trucks, SUV, hummers and other gaz-guzzlling cars. I don't feel bad for them for paying around $80 to fill up your big SUVs.

Oh so true.

Anyway, Exxonmoble is one of our corporate sponsors for our student organization and the explanation they told us for higher gas prices was that the oil now is harder to get to which increases production costs and increased demand within the U.S. as well as China and other parts of the world have driven the price of oil up. I believe their explanation has some merit.

This country really needs to look ahead a find better, viable fuel alternatives but unfortunately, that won't happen until gas becomes cost prohibitive. I really do think our nation ought to become more proactive on this.

[SunWuKong]

Oh so true.

Anyway, Exxonmoble is one of our corporate sponsors for our student organization and the explanation they told us for higher gas prices was that the oil now is harder to get to which increases production costs and increased demand within the U.S. as well as China and other parts of the world have driven the price of oil up. I believe their explanation has some merit.

that would only make sense if Exxonmobile isn't at the same time recording very high profits. the fact that the oil is harder to get naturally means consumer costs would rise. but unless our demand for oil has also risen, their profits should not have risen as well unless they've also set a higher percentage increase in the cost when selling to consumers.

[AltimaGTR]

I'd really like to blame oil execs, but I'd have to go with the fact that we're consuming more and more oil and so are other countries. Shit always pisses me off cuz I know it's not the gas station owner's fault but I'm still kinda pissed at them.

On the other hand, I like how Brazil is using Ethanol powered cars.

[yoMAMA]

don't you have a light rail in Minneapolis now?



there is a light rail system.

however, it does not extend to the suburbs (where I live).


there's not enough population density in Minneapolis to justify good public transport.

that's true.

also there's still the frontiers spirit, rugged individualism symbolized by caras.

[DragonKnight]

Don't know about Southern California, but in Santa Clara county, the VTA (Valley Transportation Authority) is a major rip-off. If my work wasn't giving us yearly passes, it would actually be cheaper for me to drive to work than use the local public transportation system. It is even more of a rip off since the transportation system is already getting lots of money through taxes, etc. However, since work provides us with passes I am basically using my car on weekends only now.
In LA and the surrounding areas we get to use an EZ Transit pass. Gives us access to almost every train (except the Metrorail and Amtrak) and bus system out here. Only $58/month.

Granted I'll be moving back to the SF Bay Area up in the East Bay. Seems like it's a lot more expensive up there. Hopefully if I get a job they'll be giving out BART Plus passes. But even if it doesn't, I'd still take public transportation. Have to factor the cost of wear and tear on your car too. :wink:

[Kennyb]

People, if you think your prices for petrol is high, you haven't seen it over here in UK. It's almost $2 a litre here ok. Yes, $2 a litre!!!!! Do the maths on how much a gallon is.... We're getting screwed over too, I might have to buy a moped or get my bike out inorder to commute.

[Arex]

^ So true. We've been spoiled in America. Higher gas prices suck, but if it'll force us to develop new technologies to make us less reliant upon oil (meaning less reason to meddle in places where we otherwise have no business, i.e., the middle east), and help stem the purchase of those P.O.S. SUVs, that's not such a bad thing.

I just hope the high prices don't result in people supporting the idea of opening up Alaska to further drilling. Finding more sources of oil is not a solution to this long term problem.

[Chad]

cant wait until its $10/gallon. maybe see some gas trucks getting hi-jacked then. all 'mad max' style.
time to start eating locally-grown food!

[LaiSteve66]

that would only make sense if Exxonmobile isn't at the same time recording very high profits. the fact that the oil is harder to get naturally means consumer costs would rise. but unless our demand for oil has also risen, their profits should not have risen as well unless they've also set a higher percentage increase in the cost when selling to consumers.

Increased demand without a corresponding increase in supply will drive up prices. Of course their profits will increase.

[SunWuKong]

Increased demand without a corresponding increase in supply will drive up prices. Of course their profits will increase.

so is there an increased demand? sure, we know there's probably significant increase in demand in China. but in the US, demand has been pretty steadily the same. and do we know the increased profits from American oil companies is made from Chinese demand? i haven't read anything about that, and i don't think there's any real transparency.

[Arex]

The fact that everyone's getting pissy with Iran doesn't help the situation any. That is one area that we can blame Bush. If he'd tone down the rhetoric and play nice, Iran wouldn't be as much of a factor.

Unless we've got hard, specific evidence that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, Bush really has no business posturing and making threats as if they are.

Oh, and here's a link discussing the rally in the price of oil: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612507/

[LaiSteve66]

so is there an increased demand? sure, we know there's probably significant increase in demand in China. but in the US, demand has been pretty steadily the same.

That's not what this article suggests.

In its latest monthly oil market report, the Paris-based IEA says China and North America will continue to increase consumption this year, no matter what the price,

http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6316168.html?industryid=21950

Hear's another.

http://www.theallineed.com/news//0601/17132255.htm

and do we know the increased profits from American oil companies is made from Chinese demand? i haven't read anything about that, and i don't think there's any real transparency.

Enjoy.

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex53372.htm

The explanation is quite simple. It's not just China increasing demand, it's all over the world. Oil is a non-renewable resource, as more is consumed, the supply lowered. Couple that with an increase in demand and then obviously the equilibrium price goes up. So what's left? The cost to get the oil out of the ground and to the gas station. The increase upstream and downstream costs have not kept pace with the increase in demand thus increasing profits. It's just simple microeconomics.

[eos]

We all need to walk more anyway.


ain't that the truth.

there's no way in hell i'm paying 4 bucks for gas. i can live without my car.
plus other people can drive me if i need it LOL =P

[Kennyb]

^ So true. We've been spoiled in America. Higher gas prices suck, but if it'll force us to develop new technologies to make us less reliant upon oil (meaning less reason to meddle in places where we otherwise have no business, i.e., the middle east), and help stem the purchase of those P.O.S. SUVs, that's not such a bad thing.

I just hope the high prices don't result in people supporting the idea of opening up Alaska to further drilling. Finding more sources of oil is not a solution to this long term problem.

From what I read from those science magazines and discussion with friends. They are developing new fuel energy, using hydrogen. However big petrol companies like BP and Shell are just rinsing our money out until we have to move onto hydrogen energy.

Wish I never learnt to drive come to think of it.... ¬_¬

[AliBabaIncorporated]

^ So true. We've been spoiled in America. Higher gas prices suck, but if it'll force us to develop new technologies to make us less reliant upon oil (meaning less reason to meddle in places where we otherwise have no business, i.e., the middle east), and help stem the purchase of those P.O.S. SUVs, that's not such a bad thing.
If the feddle gummint tried to impose Euro-style gasoline taxes, Americans would just get cheap illegal gas from Mexico, the same way they get cheap illegal labour and cheap illegal drugs.

In the medium term, gasoline taxes might lead to us going back to century-old technologies like coal liquefaction or something. (Oh no, Evil Racist Nazi (and South African) Science!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer-Tropsch_process#History)). Then we'd start hearing about "Peak Coal" and the neocons would have their excuse to invade Northern China.

But gas taxes leading to new technology? Fuggedaboudit, even if it got invented, the oil companies would probably just buy the rights to the devices and processes for a few billion dollars (and then lobby Congress to allow unlimited extension of patent life, a la Disney and copy"rights").

[Broomer]

I have a colleague who's selling her car for the exact reason.
I'm now actually feeling sorry for those bastards that drives around the city in their flipping 4WD and pseudo rigs.

Me? I've been taking the public and it's being great. The only time I use the car now is on weekends to run my errands. I've caught up with my reading, got a good dose of exercise and found out that my old school's uniforms have now being updated. So the kids go around looking like Run DMC instead of the 1970s jumpsuits that I got around in.

Broomer

[SunWuKong]

That's not what this article suggests.



http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6316168.html?industryid=21950

Hear's another.

http://www.theallineed.com/news//0601/17132255.htm



Enjoy.

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex53372.htm

The explanation is quite simple. It's not just China increasing demand, it's all over the world. Oil is a non-renewable resource, as more is consumed, the supply lowered. Couple that with an increase in demand and then obviously the equilibrium price goes up. So what's left? The cost to get the oil out of the ground and to the gas station. The increase upstream and downstream costs have not kept pace with the increase in demand thus increasing profits. It's just simple microeconomics.

ok, that's fine. the IEA thinks North American demand for oil has hit a high.

so big oil companies say that their profit increase is due to this reason. do we take their word for it? do we just assume they're not actually charging more for their oil at a time when demand has risen?

i don't understand why we tend to just empty-handedly give big companies like the big oil companies the benefit of the doubt that they're being responsible businesses, or that we think it's just simple economics, simple supply and demand. is there even enough transparency to come to the conclusion that it's simple supply and demand that their profits have increased so much? these companies make a tremendous amount of money. they can handle skepticism and criticism.

But gas taxes leading to new technology? Fuggedaboudit, even if it got invented, the oil companies would probably just buy the rights to the devices and processes for a few billion dollars (and then lobby Congress to allow unlimited extension of patent life, a la Disney and copy"rights").

one thing i think we need to do is limit oil companies' involvement in alternative energy sources.

[Yeahman]

that would only make sense if Exxonmobile isn't at the same time recording very high profits. the fact that the oil is harder to get naturally means consumer costs would rise. but unless our demand for oil has also risen, their profits should not have risen as well unless they've also set a higher percentage increase in the cost when selling to consumers.
What you need to look at is profit margin which remains stable and relatively low. Exxonmobil does exploration and refinement too. When global oil prices rise, they just ride the wave.

I'd really like to blame oil execs, but I'd have to go with the fact that we're consuming more and more oil and so are other countries. Shit always pisses me off cuz I know it's not the gas station owner's fault but I'm still kinda pissed at them.

On the other hand, I like how Brazil is using Ethanol powered cars.
Problem is that ethanol is even more expensive if it's not subsidized.

so is there an increased demand? sure, we know there's probably significant increase in demand in China. but in the US, demand has been pretty steadily the same. and do we know the increased profits from American oil companies is made from Chinese demand? i haven't read anything about that, and i don't think there's any real transparency.
The price of crude oil, like gold, is determined by the global market.

The fact that everyone's getting pissy with Iran doesn't help the situation any. That is one area that we can blame Bush. If he'd tone down the rhetoric and play nice, Iran wouldn't be as much of a factor.

Unless we've got hard, specific evidence that Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, Bush really has no business posturing and making threats as if they are.
Do you also blame the UN then?
What Bush and the UN want to do is put inspectors on the ground to make sure that they aren't up to anything sinister.

From what I read from those science magazines and discussion with friends. They are developing new fuel energy, using hydrogen. However big petrol companies like BP and Shell are just rinsing our money out until we have to move onto hydrogen energy.

Wish I never learnt to drive come to think of it.... ¬_¬
Big Oil is investing heavily in hydrogen. They don't want to miss it if it comes. But it's still a long ways off. We need to set on an efficient and safe delivery system. We would need ot retrofit all the stations. We need the cars. Most importantly we need to get the hydrogen from somewhere and do it cheaper than just digging oil out of the ground. Economical sources of hydrogen are oil, coal, and natural gas. That doesn't really help us.

so big oil companies say that their profit increase is due to this reason. do we take their word for it? do we just assume they're not actually charging more for their oil at a time when demand has risen?

i don't understand why we tend to just empty-handedly give big companies like the big oil companies the benefit of the doubt that they're being responsible businesses, or that we think it's just simple economics, simple supply and demand. is there even enough transparency to come to the conclusion that it's simple supply and demand that their profits have increased so much? these companies make a tremendous amount of money. they can handle skepticism and criticism.
Just take a look at their profit margins.

one thing i think we need to do is limit oil companies' involvement in alternative energy sources.
Ban investment in alternative energy? How's that going to help?

[SunWuKong]

Ban investment in alternative energy? How's that going to help?

i never said "ban investment in alternative energy"...

[Yeahman]

Ban Big Oil from investing in alternative energy?

[Arex]

Do you also blame the UN then?Yes.

]What Bush and the UN want to do is put inspectors on the ground to make sure that they aren't up to anything sinister.That's fine. But had Bush taken a more diplomatic tone from the outset, I honestly believe inspections might still be continuing to this today.

[SunWuKong]

Ban Big Oil from investing in alternative energy?

didn't say that either...

[kongnamul]

Ride a bike! Theres people with SUVS that are stealing 1000's gallons of gas these days.

[VV o n g B a]

Big Oil is investing heavily in hydrogen. They don't want to miss it if it comes. But it's still a long ways off. We need to set on an efficient and safe delivery system. We would need ot retrofit all the stations. We need the cars. Most importantly we need to get the hydrogen from somewhere and do it cheaper than just digging oil out of the ground. Economical sources of hydrogen are oil, coal, and natural gas. That doesn't really help us.as u say, hydrogen is a long way off. like 20 years off. if we don't use hydrocarbons for hydrogen, we'll have to use something like electrolysis which is pretty energy intensive. maybe we can get sunlight or wind to do that, but that involves two conversions of energy which increases the inefficiency and therefore cost. the storage tanks will cost a lot b/c hydrogen will leak thru steel. there are tanks that now hold 5000psi and they're working on 10kpsi. to keep pressurize that requires LOTS of energy. more inefficiency. and finally, i wonder how they'll handle safety. it's already dangerous driving a car w/ nonpressurized gasoline. even inert gas at 10kpsi would be dangerous, not to mention the extreme flamability of gas that crashed the hindenberg.

big big questionmarks about the profitability of hydrogen for the foreseeable future.

[TB4000]

CNN reported earlier that it could be up to 4 bucks come late summer. It's getting ridiculous, to tell you the truth.

[eos]

dammit....i don't even remember how much gas was way back when.....1 something??? those were the good old days. now when i see it in the lower 2 range i'm ecstatic cuz it's usually nearer to 3 something. *sigh*

[yoMAMA]

CNN reported earlier that it could be up to 4 bucks come late summer. It's getting ridiculous, to tell you the truth.

JESUS

:eek:

[LaiSteve66]

Well if gas is going to cost 4 dollars a gallon, then the best we can do in the short term is buy gasoline efficient cars. No more of these gas guzzling SUVs. (too bad there so many idiots in Houston that drive these though)

[Napoleon Chynamite]

This is going to be shitty for my precious minivan. I don't even get the status that is supposed to go along with paying 10 bucks a gallon in comparison to others who own um...flashier pieces of auto x(

[Broomer]

CNN reported earlier that it could be up to 4 bucks come late summer. It's getting ridiculous, to tell you the truth.

I think the big deal here is that people were used to cheap gar prices.
Ten/twenty years ago, petrol in Oz cost about 60 cents (about USD.30), these days it's about AUD1.40. Human nature being what it is, they'll think back to the prices then and the prices now without thinking about the rise in demand.

Let's face it, everyone drives these days and back then you can remove large parts of Asia and Latin America from that equation.

You've got (supposedly) diminishing supplies, increased demands and decreased political stability in the regions that produced the stuff.

Maybe we should just follow Mexico (plus one guy in far northern Queensland).

Broomer

[AltimaGTR]

Problem is that ethanol is even more expensive if it's not subsidized.
How much more expensive? I guess I'd have no choice but to switch once gas prices are the same as ethanol's.

[Adaon]

Just a shout out report about the gas prices in Bay Area (California).

It's topping $4.33 at the most expensive station in the Bay (Of course, it's in San Francisco.)

The most affordable is $3.36 in San Mateo. (Which is about 30 minutes south of San Francisco)

Eff the oil companies and their oligopoly.

[eos]

^holy freaking crap. the one by my house is 3.75 for regular.

[haplesshobo]

Just a shout out report about the gas prices in Bay Area (California).

It's topping $4.33 at the most expensive station in the Bay (Of course, it's in San Francisco.)

The most affordable is $3.36 in San Mateo. (Which is about 30 minutes south of San Francisco)

Eff the oil companies and their oligopoly.

I don't understand that argument. If the oil companies can manipulate oil profits, then why weren't they doing that in the 90s when the price of oil was lower and their profits were concomittantly lower? If profits are too low, then there's little incentive for these oil companies to sink billions of dollars in searching for new sources in oil. I think its simple supply and demand, where there's increasing demand from oil, both from america and countries like china, and not enough of a jump in the supply of oil to keep up.

[pikachupacabra]

The way I hear it, it's not an oil supply issue in the Bay Area, it's a refinery capacity issue.

[LaiSteve66]

I think its simple supply and demand, where there's increasing demand from oil, both from america and countries like china, and not enough of a jump in the supply of oil to keep up.

That's exactly what it is, but everyone loves a conspiracy theory. (not accusing anyone here)

[Craig]

The way I hear it, it's not an oil supply issue in the Bay Area, it's a refinery capacity issue.Assholes in the Bay Area are just out to rip off the other guy and be a nice little self righteous hypocrite while doing it. That's the issue, not any refinery capacity bullshit or anything else being passed along.

[Broomer]

Wow, I thought it was bad in Oz. We're paying about AU$1.25.
Really, I think that fuel technologies is going to be the big thing in the next 10 years, that or space exploration.

Otherwise, there's also walking. :smile:

BTW, sorry I haven't been around. Being busy getting hitched.

Broomer

[AgentTofu]

China is surging the demand for oil, all while the world isn't cutting back enough, and the companies are not building any new refineries. Pretty simple and easy to see why the price continues to sky rocket.

[SunWuKong]

speaking of oil, PetroChina has recently found a huge reserve:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=32762

[haplesshobo]

The way I hear it, it's not an oil supply issue in the Bay Area, it's a refinery capacity issue.

Yes, refinery capacity is also contributing to higher oil prices. Even as consumption has increased, there haven't been any new refineries built in part to enviornmental regulations. Other enviornmental regulations
specify that Californians must use a special type of gas, different than other states, so we can't tap into other states refineries and that puts additonal pressure on our supply.

As much as we like to blame oil companies for high prices, the state also has to bear some responsibility as well. I think its a legitimate trade-off, but one that needs to be acknowledged. I'm somewhat suprised by the anger about high gas prices. If you think about it, high gas prices would accomplish several progressive goals:

People would drive fewer SUVs as those vehicles would become too expensive to operate, reduce urban sprawl as cheap gas prices have allowed people to live further and further away from cities, bring back public transportation, etc..

I mean, I've read some progressives argue for higher gas taxes, like the ones we see in Europe, to accomplish those goals. And, with current gas prices, you'd accomplish some of those goals.

[Faithless]

CNN reported earlier that it could be up to 4 bucks come late summer. It's getting ridiculous, to tell you the truth.
It's what the "market will bear", baby!