Confused White Boy [Archive] - Yellowworld Forums

axi0m

11-16-2002, 09:03 PM

Hi all. I'm a confused individual :P . I'm white but have Japanese ancestry. I practice most Japanese traditions and cultural activities, and speak Japanese. The problem is fitting in. For one, I happen to like Asian girls. Sometimes I find my Asian friends saying comments about white guys liking Asian girls to me and sending me links to articles about white guys dating Asians and how many Asians don't like it and whatnot. Personally, I don't think skin color determines your ethnicity. I've seen plenty of very white looking Asians, and I consider myself one of them, specifically Japanese. I'm afraid my Asian friends kind of look at me as a poser of some sort, just because of my skin color. It's weird for a white guy having to deal with racism isn't it? But I'm one of those... I talk to my friends about it and they say they don't think of me as a poser and that they think of me as Japanese, they even call me by my Japanese name Urashima Satoshi, but I just don't know. I know I might sound paranoid or something but reading on the net I see a lot of negative articles about this kind of thing. Do you guys have any suggestions on what I should do to show that I'm not just another white guy trying to be Asian? Should I just not worry about? Sorry for the long post but it's been bothering me lately..

-Satoshi-

axi0m

11-16-2002, 09:06 PM

And yes, I know there are topics on this already.. But I wanted to know if anyone had any specific ideas of how to deal with my friends and other Asians in general. Sorry if this kind of advice has been given before but I didn't come across any specifics.

-Satoshi-

kimpossible

11-16-2002, 09:18 PM

The first thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be Japanese. No way, no how. But this isn't something you should beat yourself up over. There are nisei that aren't considered Japanese when they visit their Japanese relatives. Japan is pretty binary when it comes to nationality. It's like the way BeTheReds (another poster) put it: What is your ethnicity?

1) Japanese
2) no

I've known nisei that are rejected as foreigner trash by their relatives in Japan. Does it suck? Yeah. Is there anything you can do about it? No.

So, what you're left with is approaching this with the mindset that you aren't Japanese in the nationalistic sense and can never be, but you're still you and you can't change the fact that you are in part ethnically Japanese.

Personally, I've never felt white. I don't mean that I've always felt Asian but I dealt with enough Asian-specific racism as a kid from whites that I've never had the feeling.

Hey, guess we'll continue this on IM. :)

ChinaLama

11-16-2002, 09:28 PM

Satoshi...just curious, by "Japanese ancestry," do you mean you were born in or your parents were born in Japan, or one of your parents is Japanese-American?

axi0m

11-16-2002, 09:42 PM

One of my grandparents is Japanese-American hehe. However, my parents are understanding of the Japanese culture and I was brought up in a very Japanese environment. (I was taught Japanese and English, etc.) Which makes me even more "white" I know.

-Satoshi-

axi0m

11-16-2002, 10:07 PM

By the way, this has been resolved via IM. Thanks!

-Satoshi-

kimpossible

11-16-2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 16 2002, 09:42 PM
One of my grandparents is Japanese-American hehe. However, my parents are understanding of the Japanese culture and I was brought up in a very Japanese environment. (I was taught Japanese and English, etc.) Which makes me even more "white" I know.

-Satoshi-
eh? I thought it was great-grandparent?

axi0m

11-16-2002, 10:21 PM

I meant, one of my grandparents is Japanese/American, meaning he's half Japanese half white, meaning my mom is a 1/4 and I'm 1/8. The way I wrote it sounded like he was full Japanese living in America... Oops.

-Satoshi-

kimpossible

11-16-2002, 10:26 PM

Oh, thought I was going senile.

note to wylin> shut up. :)

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 17 2002, 01:21 AM
I meant, one of my grandparents is Japanese/American, meaning he's half Japanese half white, meaning my mom is a 1/4 and I'm 1/8. The way I wrote it sounded like he was full Japanese living in America... Oops.

-Satoshi-
wow, so what motivated your parents to bring you up in a very japanese environment? or am i being presumptious in thinking that a 1/4th japanese woman married to a white man would not want to bring up her kid in a very japanese environment?

axi0m

11-17-2002, 01:15 AM

That's why I'm odd. The culture kind of stayed through the generations I guess. For example, I want to bring up my children in a Japanese environment, which is even MORE odd considering I'm 1/8. So, it happens I guess.

-Satoshi-

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 17 2002, 04:15 AM
That's why I'm odd. The culture kind of stayed through the generations I guess. For example, I want to bring up my children in a Japanese environment, which is even MORE odd considering I'm 1/8. So, it happens I guess.

-Satoshi-
that's easy. marry japanese. :)
makes things alot easier.

mrazntre

11-17-2002, 02:19 AM

where's morientes when we need him to clarify stuff...

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by KuroBishounen@Nov 17 2002, 06:29 AM
I'm sorry, but....(in reaction to this forum)

WTF??? :blink:
que?

kimpossible

11-17-2002, 10:59 AM

What I was saying earlier is that since you've never been to Japan and you're not Japanese in the Japanese sense of course (I'm not Japanese -- none of us mixed Japanese are Japanese) -- it's kind of presumptious to say "I live very Japanese." In fact it sounds very un-Japanese to say that.

There are multi-generational Korean residents in Japan that I would personally consider Japanese. The Japanese obviously don't because resident Koreans don't have citizenship. Same thing goes for the missing parent trend in the Japanese census.

Speaking some Japanese, going to some cultural events in the US, eating Japanese food, observing some Japanese culture in the U.S. -- this isn't living Japanese. I've done these things, I've gone to Japan, I'm accepted as family by my Japanese relatives but I'm still not Japanese and do not claim to live 'Japanese.' I think if any of the mixed Asians on this forum have a right to say they live very Asian it's AliBaba and BeTheReds. They are foreign born, fluent in multiple Asian languages and have to deal with being mixed Asian in Asia. I don't always agree with them but I respect the hell out of them for that.

You seem like a really nice guy but you want something really extreme and unbalanced. You want to be accepted not as someone who has some Asian ancestry, but as a fully Asian person. (From what you've told me) it upsets you that fully-blooded Asians have told you that you can't understand their point of view. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to understand that in some cases it's going to be true. You most likely have not had to deal with a fraction of Asian-specific racism that they have. You probably won't face the glass ceiling in the US.

As I told you, I think in your case life experience is going to be the best teacher and heading to Japan is most likely the only life experience that will help you work through this. So I think you're on the right track. But in the meantime, can I advise that you try to look at your life in a more balanced way? Being accepted by Asians when you're mixed even at 1/2 and 1/2 is rough, and gets more nebulous from there on out. It's paradoxical: the more you try to act Asian and expect people to treat you like an Asian, the less likely you will be. Be yourself. Most AAs don't have attitudes towards mixed Asians. I think most don't care either way. It's not like they're going through every second of their life examining if every action they take is the 'Asian' thing to do. Can AAs get cliqueish? Hell yeah, but find me an ethnic or cultural group that doesn't.

But let me pass on a little note to your buddy that is giving you a hard time for dating an Asian girl: bring his behind here and we'll have a little chat. You can date whoever you want and don't owe an explanation to anyone.

BeTheReds

11-17-2002, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Nov 17 2002, 06:59 PM
I think if any of the mixed Asians on this forum have a right to say they live very Asian it's AliBaba and BeTheReds. They are foreign born, fluent in multiple Asian languages and have to deal with being mixed Asian in Asia. I don't always agree with them but I respect the hell out of them for that.

About 2nd and 3rd generation Koreans in Japan. This I truly do not understand, because all you need for citizenship in Japan is to live there 5 years, take an oath of loyalty, have a job, speak japanese, and not be a criminal. Those people have nothing to complain about because they don't want citizenship or they don't know that they are entitled to it if they take the citizenship test.

Thanks for the respect, tho I wouldn't say I am fluent in Korean... I can survive tho. Oh, and I am not foreign born... Well I am if you considere "here" to be Japan, but I was born in the USA to a Korean citizen and a U.S. citizen.

As for axiom, now... I can't say everything because I don't know you, but I think I might know what you are going through because I look pretty much white and Asians can be rough. I pretty much agree though with what HelloHapa says, you have not gone through as much asian-specific racism as everyone else, and you look white and have a European name. Any white guy who wanted to be Asian can claim to be 1/8th and do exactly what you are doing. Now I am not denying that you have some Asian blood in you, but basically what you are doing would be similar to me claiming to be German, because my great grandfather came from there, and because I like octoberfest and own some leiderhosen. (which I don't.)

If you ever come to Japan you will notice that all that Japanesey stuff and those things they tell you about JApanese culture in the USA is for foreigners. Japanese people don't like Kabuki and shrines and temples or even anime. They like american music and european clothes. Yea I live Japanese... I live in a tiny apartment that is rediculously expensive, and I used Japanese on an every day basis, and I ride my bike to work. Do people accept me as JApanese? Nope...

However any experience I have had in Korea is totally different but still the same. At first I am seen as a foreigner, then when people learn my background, I'm instantly cool. Am I accepted as a Korean? Nope...

But what people accept you as and what you know yourself to be are totally different.

AliBabaIncorporated

11-17-2002, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 18 2002, 08:35 AM
About 2nd and 3rd generation Koreans in Japan.  This I truly do not understand, because all you need for citizenship in Japan is to live there 5 years, take an oath of loyalty, have a job, speak japanese, and not be a criminal.  Those people have nothing to complain about because they don't want citizenship or they don't know that they are entitled to it if they take the citizenship test.
Well from what I've heard, it's a bit more stringent than that, because of sokou chousa that gets conducted during the naturalization application. They have to present themselves as Japanese, make sure their house looks Japanese and smells Japanese. Also it appears to be unofficially non-tolerated to be naturalized under a Korean name (or under the on-yomi of a Korean name; kun-yomi seems to be fine, judging from the Enomotos, Konoshimas, and Kane-whatevers I've met or heard of. First names I'd guess it's a bit more inflexible though) - there are at least a few documented cases of Korean-Japanese being refused citizenship solely on those grounds.

Strangely enough this is a lot harsher than the requirements for Chinese or other non-citizens naturalizing. I've met Chinese-Japanese surnamed Ou (Wong) or Ri (Lee), and two professors whose "Japanese" name was simply the on-yomi of their Chinese name. And then Westerners are apparently allowed to naturalize under whatever the hell they feel like even if it sounds incredibly strange, e.g. "Arudou Debito."

Edit: See here (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010421a3.htm) for one account from the Japan Times, though the author has something of an axe to grind.

BeTheReds

11-17-2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 18 2002, 06:47 AM
Also it appears to be unofficially non-tolerated to be naturalized under a Korean name (or under the on-yomi of a Korean name; kun-yomi seems to be fine, judging from the Enomotos, Konoshimas, and Kane-whatevers I've met or heard of. First names I'd guess it's a bit more inflexible though) - there are at least a few documented cases of Korean-Japanese being refused citizenship solely on those grounds.

In this sense I don't see what difference it makes, as long as you are using Kanji, it carries the same meaning. You are always entitled to write your name in furigana using katakana even if you want to. Probably, the people who want to hold on to their names as a sense of national or ethnic identity don't want to be Japanese, and because of that, they should not complain about rights of citizenship that they do not get. It doesn't bother me one bit that everyone here calls me Ko Yushin or Ou Yushin by looking at my kanji name. All it takes is a simple correction.

AliBabaIncorporated

11-18-2002, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 18 2002, 03:51 PM
It doesn't bother me one bit that everyone here calls me Ko Yushin or Ou Yushin by looking at my kanji name. All it takes is a simple correction.
Hmm ... so in Japanese, you prefer being addressed by the Japanese pronunciation of your English name, which is also the Korean reading of Chinese characters, rather than the Japanese reading of those characters? I think I get it ...

Strangely enough for me, ever since I wrote my Chinese name on the Japanese placement test at the beginning of my first year of university, every Japanese prof has addressed me as Ryou Shoubun. Including the Japanese profs here in HK, who address all the students by the on-yomi of their Chinese names. And I don't really think of it one way or the other. (I do object to being called "Terufumi," the kun-yomi of my Chinese name, though, because it's an actual Japanese name, and I don't wanna give the impression that I think I am Japanese or am pretending to be one. Though I've only run into that problem about once or twice, mostly cuz my surname is a character which Japanese people only use in first names, making it obviously non-Japanese.) It's almost as much my name as "Eric" is, and I hear it far more often than I hear the Cantonese reading of my Chinese name --- I only ever hear that when some researcher or marketer cold-calls me on the phone.

If I insisted on Japanese people addressing me by the "proper" pronunciation of my Chinese name (i.e. the way it's read in Hakka, my original dialect), everyone would mangle it. Most Japanese people cannot pronounce any of the initial consonants in the Hakka reading of my Chinese name (roughly L, Ts, and V), and they're likely to screw up the vowels on two out of three of the characters as well. So it comes out somewhere around "Rien Chuu Uun," which to me sounds a lot uglier anyway, and not worth the trouble of correcting everyone I meet to say it. But maybe this is just a Chinese mentality, I'm enough used to my name changing with every different set of dialect-speaking friends that getting used to the Japanese reading on top of that wasn't too much of a shock.

axi0m

11-18-2002, 01:57 AM

Thanks for the nice replies everyone. I understand more now as to what I should and shouldn't do and/or think. I've just never thought about it before since I mostly hung out with white kids and now that I have mostly all Asian friends it's just different. The white kids always treated me as Asian and the Asians always treat me as white.. :)

Oh well, can't wait to experience Japan this summer firsthand. :D

-Satoshi-

angel nympho

11-18-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Nov 17 2002, 06:59 PM
What I was saying earlier is that since you've never been to Japan and you're not Japanese in the Japanese sense of course (I'm not Japanese -- none of us mixed Japanese are Japanese) -- it's kind of presumptious to say "I live very Japanese." In fact it sounds very un-Japanese to say that.
Well, what exactly would be the proper way to describe how he lives, though? I mean, being rasied in an environment where he's exposed to a lot of Japanese culture, he isn't exactly NOT living "Japanese." ... He most certainly isn't being raised "white" or whatever you'd call it.

BeTheReds

11-18-2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 18 2002, 09:39 AM

Hmm ... so in Japanese, you prefer being addressed by the Japanese pronunciation of your English name, which is also the Korean reading of Chinese characters, rather than the Japanese reading of those characters? I think I get it ...

My name is Hwang Yu-Jin@‰©—L^

Eugene is what is written on my birth certificate because I was born in the USA. I guess you could say that it's my English name, though it's just a creative spelling trick so that people in the USA who don't know won't mangle someting as easy as Yu-Jin.

So in Japanese I like the katakanaized pronunciation of the above, while still using Kanji on documents. Nobody ever tries to call me arumakoto because that sounds dumb.

All I was saying is that most people will look at the family name and say Ou or Kou. And a simple correction to ƒtƒ@ƒ“ or ƒzƒƒ“@is sufficient.

YuheiCarreau

11-18-2002, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 18 2002, 12:47 AM
Well from what I've heard, it's a bit more stringent than that, because of sokou chousa that gets conducted during the naturalization application. They have to present themselves as Japanese, make sure their house looks Japanese and smells Japanese. Also it appears to be unofficially non-tolerated to be naturalized under a Korean name (or under the on-yomi of a Korean name; kun-yomi seems to be fine, judging from the Enomotos, Konoshimas, and Kane-whatevers I've met or heard of. First names I'd guess it's a bit more inflexible though) - there are at least a few documented cases of Korean-Japanese being refused citizenship solely on those grounds.

Strangely enough this is a lot harsher than the requirements for Chinese or other non-citizens naturalizing. I've met Chinese-Japanese surnamed Ou (Wong) or Ri (Lee), and two professors whose "Japanese" name was simply the on-yomi of their Chinese name. And then Westerners are apparently allowed to naturalize under whatever the hell they feel like even if it sounds incredibly strange, e.g. "Arudou Debito."

Edit: See here (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010421a3.htm) for one account from the Japan Times, though the author has something of an axe to grind.
Alibaba, what is this on-yomi stuff? Is it like converting the Italian name Giacomo to the English name Joe?

I think under the impression that Japan is pretty strict about citizens having Japanese names; my Japanese passport only has my Japanese first name and surname, without my English first name and mother's maiden name (as my US one does).

Also, under Japanese record, my mother (White & American) is married to my father (Japanese) but she's not his wife. Do you know if she would gain that status if she became a naturalized citizen (this is hypothetical, but I'm curious)?

SunWuKong

11-18-2002, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 18 2002, 09:04 PM
My name is Hwang Yu-Jin@‰©—L^
hey that sounds really similar to how it's pronounced in chinese too :)

BeTheReds

11-18-2002, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 19 2002, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 18 2002, 09:04 PM
My name is Hwang Yu-Jin@‰©—L^
hey that sounds really similar to how it's pronounced in chinese too :)
yup, most korean readings for chinese characters came from an old form of chinese. This mixed with isolation and accent resulting from their own language lead to the present Korean pronunciation of chinese characters.

BeTheReds

11-18-2002, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Nov 19 2002, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 18 2002, 12:47 AM
Well from what I've heard, it's a bit more stringent than that, because of sokou chousa that gets conducted during the naturalization application. They have to present themselves as Japanese, make sure their house looks Japanese and smells Japanese. Also it appears to be unofficially non-tolerated to be naturalized under a Korean name (or under the on-yomi of a Korean name; kun-yomi seems to be fine, judging from the Enomotos, Konoshimas, and Kane-whatevers I've met or heard of. First names I'd guess it's a bit more inflexible though) - there are at least a few documented cases of Korean-Japanese being refused citizenship solely on those grounds.

Strangely enough this is a lot harsher than the requirements for Chinese or other non-citizens naturalizing. I've met Chinese-Japanese surnamed Ou (Wong) or Ri (Lee), and two professors whose "Japanese" name was simply the on-yomi of their Chinese name. And then Westerners are apparently allowed to naturalize under whatever the hell they feel like even if it sounds incredibly strange, e.g. "Arudou Debito."

Edit: See here (http://www.japantimes.com/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010421a3.htm) for one account from the Japan Times, though the author has something of an axe to grind.
Alibaba, what is this on-yomi stuff? Is it like converting the Italian name Giacomo to the English name Joe?

I think under the impression that Japan is pretty strict about citizens having Japanese names; my Japanese passport only has my Japanese first name and surname, without my English first name and mother's maiden name (as my US one does).

Also, under Japanese record, my mother (White & American) is married to my father (Japanese) but she's not his wife. Do you know if she would gain that status if she became a naturalized citizen (this is hypothetical, but I'm curious)?
there is kun yomi and on yomi

The Japanese adopted chinese characters into their writing system and for many of them there are multiple ways to read them. One results from their chinese pronunciation being imitated by japanese speakers, and the other is an indigeonous word that existed before the character was introduced and since chinese characters have meaning, it is simply assigned to that character.

Wow that sounds confusing

lets try to simplify.

Pretend that for some reason the English language was now gonna be infused with Chinese characters.

–¯ means citizen. So every time you see –¯you could just read it as "citizen".
‘ means country, So every time you see ‘ you could just read it as "country".

However in some situations like in compounds, –¯‘ for example, saying "citizen country" means nothing, but saying republic does. Now pretend that there was no word in English for republic. Rather than making a new one up, why don't we just use the one from chinese? So from now on when we see –¯‘ we will just say min guo.

On is indigeneos pronunciation and kun is the chinese reading.

What he is saying is that if you have a name that is written in chinese characters, they want you to use the on reading of the characters.

As for marriage, I never knew that they would consider a foreign person marrying a Japanese as less than spouse status. I don't think that is true though.

SunWuKong

11-18-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 19 2002, 12:43 AM
The Japanese adopted chinese characters into their writing system and for many of them there are multiple ways to read them. One results from their chinese pronunciation being imitated by japanese speakers, and the other is an indigeonous word that existed before the character was introduced and since chinese characters have meaning, it is simply assigned to that character.
one of the advantages of a non-phonetic written language. :)

AliBabaIncorporated

11-18-2002, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by YuheiCarreau@Nov 19 2002, 10:51 AM
Alibaba, what is this on-yomi stuff? Is it like converting the Italian name Giacomo to the English name Joe?

I think under the impression that Japan is pretty strict about citizens having Japanese names; my Japanese passport only has my Japanese first name and surname, without my English first name and mother's maiden name (as my US one does).

Also, under Japanese record, my mother (White & American) is married to my father (Japanese) but she's not his wife. Do you know if she would gain that status if she became a naturalized citizen (this is hypothetical, but I'm curious)?
Japan seems to be strict about citizens having only Japanese names only in the case of Koreans. I'm not really sure why they're less strict in the case of Chinese and especially of Westerners. Maybe because their mentality is that even if a Westerner takes up citizenship, he'll still never really be Japanese, so there's no point to hold him to Japanese standards; hence, let him have whatever strange name he wants, in katakana, roman letters, or some strange un-japanese combination of Kanji. Furthermore Japanese law doesn't recognize middle names or two first names, which is why your Japanese passport only has your Japanese name on it. Legally speaking, your father could have registered your first name asyour English name in katakana or even roman letters on his household registration. I'm not sure whether people actually ever do this, though.

I'm not sure what the deal with foreigner marriages and household registration ... presumably I'll never be dealing with that. :P

on-yomi vs. kun-yomi: most kanji have two ways in which they can be read. First you got "on-yomi" (‰¹“Ç‚Ý), literally "sound reading," which is basically the Tang-dynasty reading of the Chinese character, first mangled into Korean pronunciation, then the Korean pronunciation mangled into Japanese pronunciation. Then, you got "kun-yomi" (ŒP“Ç‚Ý), literally "teaching reading" or "explanation reading," which comes from a native Japanese word corresponding to the meaning of that character.

When reading a foreign Asian name written in Chinese characters (Chinese, Koreans, a few Vietnamese), Japanese will naturally tend to pronounce each character in on-yomi. For example, my name is —½Æ•¶. (Ryou Syoubun, also pronounced in Mandarin as Ling Zhaowen)The given name could be read either in on-yomi as Syoubun, which is the way I prefer, or also in kun-yomi as Terubumi, which it turns out is an actual Japanese name. Or I could ask people to read it using the katakana-ized pronunciation of my name in my own language. A few people from the mainland, as well as some Koreans, seem to prefer this way. However, if it's this way you'll be correcting people for the rest of your life on how to read your name. Also as I understand it, under Japanese law, if you register with a name written in Kanji, you can choose only readings for those kanji which are recognized by the government (i.e. on-yomi or kun-yomi), and only the Japanese readings of those characters will be considered as your legal name. You can't choose the katakana-ization of the pinyin or hangul for your name, unless you want to register your name in katakana or roman letters.

SunWuKong

11-18-2002, 10:10 PM

very interesting. i never knew that they actually still use the tang reading of kanji. how often do people use on-yomi?

by the way, alibaba, that is a pretty nice name. i like it.

mine on the other hand is girly and shall never be revealed on this site. hahhah... :P

BeTheReds

11-18-2002, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 19 2002, 06:10 AM
very interesting. i never knew that they actually still use the tang reading of kanji. how often do people use on-yomi?

by the way, alibaba, that is a pretty nice name. i like it.

mine on the other hand is girly and shall never be revealed on this site. hahhah... :P
My name is supposed to be asexual but every other Korean I have met with my name is a girl.

Some of them are famous (Eugene Kim from SES)

People use on yomi mostly in kanji compounds and for the most part if you see a lone kanji it will be read in kunyomi.

–kŠC“¹ (Hokkaido) is the reading for the northern most island of Japan but if you wanted to read it in kunyomi you could say kita umi michi. No one would know what the fuck you were talking about tho.

Mostly for verbs you use kunyomi

For basic nouns you use kunyomi

For complex things that take more than one or two kanji to write you use on yomi for the most part, but there are plenty of exeptions.

bwc

11-19-2002, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 17 2002, 01:21 AM
I meant, one of my grandparents is Japanese/American, meaning he's half Japanese half white, meaning my mom is a 1/4 and I'm 1/8. The way I wrote it sounded like he was full Japanese living in America... Oops.

-Satoshi-
wow, so what motivated your parents to bring you up in a very japanese environment? or am i being presumptious in thinking that a 1/4th japanese woman married to a white man would not want to bring up her kid in a very japanese environment?
hmm yea i agree. It was a bit of a stretch to make you more "japanese" by your parents, though I do congratulate them on their efforts.
While you do seem to know a lot about the culture, etc. Most people would consider you to be a poser because of your blood lineage. 1/8 is hardly any asian blood (eh, sounding like a bigot here), and i would assume that your classmates would recognize that fact too.

angel nympho

11-19-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by bwc@Nov 19 2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 17 2002, 01:21 AM
I meant, one of my grandparents is Japanese/American, meaning he's half Japanese half white, meaning my mom is a 1/4 and I'm 1/8. The way I wrote it sounded like he was full Japanese living in America... Oops.

-Satoshi-
wow, so what motivated your parents to bring you up in a very japanese environment? or am i being presumptious in thinking that a 1/4th japanese woman married to a white man would not want to bring up her kid in a very japanese environment?
hmm yea i agree. It was a bit of a stretch to make you more "japanese" by your parents, though I do congratulate them on their efforts.
While you do seem to know a lot about the culture, etc. Most people would consider you to be a poser because of your blood lineage. 1/8 is hardly any asian blood (eh, sounding like a bigot here), and i would assume that your classmates would recognize that fact too.
Why is he a poser? Who is he trying to imitate? He acts the way his parents raised him to act. So what? I won't judge...

bwc

11-19-2002, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 19 2002, 07:57 PM
Why is he a poser?
read my post.

BeTheReds

11-19-2002, 05:56 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a poser, becasue I don't know him.

I just see it as higly unlikely that someone who's great grandmother was Japanese and the rest of his relatives White American would be able to actually honestly raised Japanese.

Even if the entire family was full blooded Japanese, him being the 4th generation and all, I can't see how culture can be transferred, when even the gap between 1st and 2nd is so great.

Now take into account that he is 4th gen and all the previous generatiosn were raised in the USA, and that it's only been deemed "cool" to be asian since the 1990's. His 1/2 Japanese grandparent who was around during WWII probably saw it to his advantage to try to act as un Japanese as possible.

So in conclusion if all of the previous assumptions are true, then it would appear to me that he might possibly be a poser.

axi0m

11-21-2002, 07:15 AM

Yes, but like you said. You don't know me, and I know you have your doubts, it's understandable. Also, on an off-topic note, math sucks because I just made a 70 on the test I just took, and Japanese 101 is great because I just conversed with Kishimoto-sensei for 30 min. for my "exam" easily... Too bad you can't skip out of early Japanese classes though, it really sucks in 101, I wanna take Japanese Lit. :(

-Satoshi-

AliBabaIncorporated

11-21-2002, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by axi0m@Nov 21 2002, 11:15 PM
Yes, but like you said. You don't know me, and I know you have your doubts, it's understandable. Also, on an off-topic note, math sucks because I just made a 70 on the test I just took, and Japanese 101 is great because I just conversed with Kishimoto-sensei for 30 min. for my "exam" easily... Too bad you can't skip out of early Japanese classes though, it really sucks in 101, I wanna take Japanese Lit. :(

-Satoshi-
hehe ... what level is 101 for you guys? (my university numbers 000-099 lower div, 100-199 upper div, 200-299 grad. Japanese 101/102 is thus a 5th-year literature course for us, but everyone from other universities who hears it thinks its the intro class). oh yeah and Japanese literature is freakin hard.

BeTheReds

11-21-2002, 04:11 PM

IN UMCP it was

101-102 Beginning from scratch
201-202 Intermediate
301-302 Advanced (though I don't see how it is advanced in the least, because it's still not enough to get you past nikkyu)
401-402 or 403-404 Business Japanese or Classical Japanese

Then there are the history and literature courses, which are all in english. Then ther is translation class.

Hiroshi2

11-21-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 19 2002, 05:56 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say he is a poser, becasue I don't know him.

I just see it as higly unlikely that someone who's great grandmother was Japanese and the rest of his relatives White American would be able to actually honestly raised Japanese.

Even if the entire family was full blooded Japanese, him being the 4th generation and all, I can't see how culture can be transferred, when even the gap between 1st and 2nd is so great.

Now take into account that he is 4th gen and all the previous generatiosn were raised in the USA, and that it's only been deemed "cool" to be asian since the 1990's. His 1/2 Japanese grandparent who was around during WWII probably saw it to his advantage to try to act as un Japanese as possible.

So in conclusion if all of the previous assumptions are true, then it would appear to me that he might possibly be a poser.
I think it's highly unlikely, but not impossible. I agree with you, I don't know him either, so we can't really make a judgement.

Reinhard H.

11-21-2002, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Nov 17 2002, 05:18 AM
The first thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be Japanese. No way, no how.
I think this is a pretty mean thing to say, imagine some white American told an Asian immigrant who considered himself an American "The first thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be American. No way, no how", why are the Asian countries supposed to be something special, so that no non-Asian can take on an Asian nationality? Chinese can be British, but British can't be Chinese?

SunWuKong

11-21-2002, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Nov 21 2002, 09:49 PM
I think this is a pretty mean thing to say, imagine some white American told an Asian immigrant who considered himself an American "The first thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be American. No way, no how", why are the Asian countries supposed to be something special, so that no non-Asian can take on an Asian nationality? Chinese can be British, but British can't be Chinese?
umm... i think she'd have a better understanding of how that works, seeing as how she's part japanese like axiom.

BeTheReds

11-21-2002, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Nov 22 2002, 02:49 AM
I think this is a pretty mean thing to say, imagine some white American told an Asian immigrant who considered himself an American "The first thing to keep in mind is that you're not going to be American. No way, no how", why are the Asian countries supposed to be something special, so that no non-Asian can take on an Asian nationality? Chinese can be British, but British can't be Chinese?
Because America is a nation founded on immigration and it, while not perfect, and not necesarily fair, has more or less invited foreigners to immigrate here and naturalize. Japan however has not had such a policy and 99.9% of Japanese citizens are also Japanese the race. Therefore to the minds of people in most Asian countries or any country that is basically racially homogenous, race = nationality and citizenship.

It is a double standard, but if the USA was all about letting only white people come here and be immigrants, and had that written in the constitution, then they could very well have done that. They also have the right to stop immigration alltogether if thats what the people really wanted. If the majority of the USA actually felt that the only people allowed to have American citizenship are White people, then that't the way it would be. But fortunately that's not the way it is.

noriko

11-21-2002, 08:37 PM

Eugene pretty much said it all. All i want to add is that when Hello Hapa said you will never be Japanese, she wasn't trying to be mean, not at all-- just stating a fact. It's not like America. If you are not a 100% Japanese person, born in Japan or at least fluent in the language, you will never "be japanese". It doesn't mean you can't have a successful life in japan; it doesn't mean japanese people will dislike you. But it is true that you will never be accepted as just another regular japanese person.

but hey, there's a plus side too-- you can commit some horrendous breach of social etiquette, and it will just be ascribed to the fact that you're a gaijin, rather than having you lose your job over it or something;)

SunWuKong

11-21-2002, 09:13 PM

hey but that's ok! you can get sinofied like HH is in the process of doing now! :)
you'll be treated just like a chinese person.

:D

angel nympho

11-21-2002, 09:25 PM

This thread is mean. :huh:

It's okay, kid, you can be whatever you wanna be. *Pat on the back*

noriko

11-21-2002, 09:47 PM

hehe, not a bad idea SWK:)

seriously though, is that true? I mean I know there are tons of Brits in HK, etc....but are they treated the same as ethnically Chinese people, once they're fluent and adapted to the culture?

if so, that's pretty cool. I wish Japan would be more like that sometimes; I mean, even to my japanese relatives i'm not "japanese", i'm "american". heck, even my friends who are 100% racially japanese and the children of recent immigrants aren't "japanese", cos they were born in america and aren't fluent in the language.

ah well....as HH said, there's not much you can do about it. Except, move to China! Hmm, maybe not such a bad idea; i shoudl think about that :lol:

SunWuKong

11-21-2002, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by noriko@Nov 22 2002, 12:47 AM
hehe, not a bad idea SWK:)

seriously though, is that true? I mean I know there are tons of Brits in HK, etc....but are they treated the same as ethnically Chinese people, once they're fluent and adapted to the culture?

if so, that's pretty cool. I wish Japan would be more like that sometimes; I mean, even to my japanese relatives i'm not "japanese", i'm "american". heck, even my friends who are 100% racially japanese and the children of recent immigrants aren't "japanese", cos they were born in america and aren't fluent in the language.

ah well....as HH said, there's not much you can do about it. Except, move to China! Hmm, maybe not such a bad idea; i shoudl think about that :lol:
er... well you'd have to be VERY VERY acclimitated to chinese culture. i mean if you're fluent in chinese and you've lived in the culture (and that's very different from academic knowledge of the culture) long enough to be perfectly comfortable in it, then your friends are going to treat you as if you were chinese. i mean if you're a westerner who's like this, there will always be the underlying thought that you're not genetically chinese, just because you look so different, but in terms of how you're treated, you'd be treated just like the chinese people around you. this is what happens with alot of brits and indians that grew up in HK and who are fluent in cantonese. but i'm not sure how it is for mixed chinese people. maybe Alibaba can talk about that. he's mixed and he's actually living in HK right now. as i understand it, he gets frustrated with people trying to speak to him in english when he can converse in cantonese. :) (but you know Ali, i'm thinking that maybe you can't completely pull of the accentless cantonese, and combined with your mixed features, that's why they're trying to talk to you in english, because i know white people and indian people who can pull of the accentless cantonese and they're spoken to in cantonese) i think if you're east asian and you become sinofied, you might even be considered chinese by some of the people around you. i've never met someone like this though, but i know there is a small community of koreans who have lived in HK for a long time. some probably were even born and raised there.

all in all, chinese people look to culture more than genetics (compared to koreans and japanese). china has a history of assimilating neighboring peoples into their culture, so i think that's probably why chinese people are more accepting of people to be part of their society.

axi0m

11-22-2002, 08:45 PM

To AliBaba, my 101 class is the FIRST Japanese class. The most introductory possible. Meaning, we learn things like "Hajimemashite, Ichihara-san desu. Doozo yoroshiku." and things like that. Basically, I had to talk to my sensei about things like what I did yesterday, what I ate, what I was going to do for Thanksgiving, etc. It was easy to say the least. My university doesn't allow you to place out of Japanese classes for some reason though. Oh well.

And to angel nympho, this thread isn't too mean, it's made me understand a lot of things about what I should think and how I should act. Well, it was kinda mean, but it was just the truth. :) (Oh, and also, I got the "Hey, do you need a fork?" thing at the Korean restaurant today, kuso~~~)

-Satoshi-

mrazntre

11-22-2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by noriko@Nov 22 2002, 05:47 AM
hehe, not a bad idea SWK:)

seriously though, is that true? I mean I know there are tons of Brits in HK, etc....but are they treated the same as ethnically Chinese people, once they're fluent and adapted to the culture?

if so, that's pretty cool. I wish Japan would be more like that sometimes; I mean, even to my japanese relatives i'm not "japanese", i'm "american". heck, even my friends who are 100% racially japanese and the children of recent immigrants aren't "japanese", cos they were born in america and aren't fluent in the language.

ah well....as HH said, there's not much you can do about it. Except, move to China! Hmm, maybe not such a bad idea; i shoudl think about that :lol:
yeah, but what happens when you go into the middle of kansas and the country folk see ya?

imma bet they're gonna say, "do youuuu speeek eng---glish???"

it's how people perceive you at first glance that matters to most

Hiroshi2

11-23-2002, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 21 2002, 07:27 PM
Because America is a nation founded on immigration and it, while not perfect, and not necesarily fair, has more or less invited foreigners to immigrate here and naturalize. Japan however has not had such a policy and 99.9% of Japanese citizens are also Japanese the race. Therefore to the minds of people in most Asian countries or any country that is basically racially homogenous, race = nationality and citizenship.

It is a double standard, but if the USA was all about letting only white people come here and be immigrants, and had that written in the constitution, then they could very well have done that. They also have the right to stop immigration alltogether if thats what the people really wanted. If the majority of the USA actually felt that the only people allowed to have American citizenship are White people, then that't the way it would be. But fortunately that's not the way it is.
That's exactly right, bethereds.

I know its frustrating, it was for me at least. my mom never told me this, i found this out through other ways and learning and reading about japan.

but the thing to remember is this: it doesn't mean that you're mom (i'm assuming your mom is japanese) and her entire family should be considered completely of no relation to you. You don't have to sever all ties with your japanese family, just understand the fact that you'll never be treated the same as a regular japanese.

unless, wait a minute. i just thought about one possilbity. what if you're dad was japanese, your mom was white and you were born in japan, given a japanese first and last name, brought up in japanese schools, and of course, appeared 100% japanese. does anybody think you might be accepted as japanese then?

AliBabaIncorporated

11-23-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 22 2002, 02:05 PM
er... well you'd have to be VERY VERY acclimitated to chinese culture. i mean if you're fluent in chinese and you've lived in the culture (and that's very different from academic knowledge of the culture) long enough to be perfectly comfortable in it, then your friends are going to treat you as if you were chinese. i mean if you're a westerner who's like this, there will always be the underlying thought that you're not genetically chinese, just because you look so different, but in terms of how you're treated, you'd be treated just like the chinese people around you. this is what happens with alot of brits and indians that grew up in HK and who are fluent in cantonese. but i'm not sure how it is for mixed chinese people. maybe Alibaba can talk about that. he's mixed and he's actually living in HK right now. as i understand it, he gets frustrated with people trying to speak to him in english when he can converse in cantonese. :) (but you know Ali, i'm thinking that maybe you can't completely pull of the accentless cantonese, and combined with your mixed features, that's why they're trying to talk to you in english, because i know white people and indian people who can pull of the accentless cantonese and they're spoken to in cantonese) i think if you're east asian and you become sinofied, you might even be considered chinese by some of the people around you. i've never met someone like this though, but i know there is a small community of koreans who have lived in HK for a long time. some probably were even born and raised there.

all in all, chinese people look to culture more than genetics (compared to koreans and japanese). china has a history of assimilating neighboring peoples into their culture, so i think that's probably why chinese people are more accepting of people to be part of their society.
well, as I've said, I have a Hakka accent when I speak Cantonese. I don't have the ABC accent nor the Western accent, and my tones are fine, but I'm obviously not an HK native. Sometimes on the phone (e.g. calling up shops or government offices) I'm mistaken for a mainlander, and if I ask too many stupid questions demonstrating I'm not a local, I'll start getting a bunch of really irritated replies in Mandarin. But I'm not really getting spoken to in English anymore, except from people who approach me without having heard me speak. Maybe I'm starting to lose the accent. :dance:

Basically, people who hear me talking know my Cantonese is fine and so they treat me as Chinese. There's no more presumption that I'm illiterate, like I was getting a few months ago, so, for example, guys at the travel agency will give me informational pamphlets written in Chinese (rather than not bothering to give it to me and making me ask for it myself only to hear them claim they don't have an informational pamphlet, when they really mean the only one they have is written in Chinese), and store clerks will get annoyed and point to a monolingual Chinese sign if I ask some annoying question whose answer is clearly printed on a sign. More importantly, people know I have no excuse for being clueless, so if I screw up and go against social norms, I'm a jackass. A friend will usually call me on it and tell me to stop acting like a jackass. (In Japan, on the other hand, if I screw up and go against social norms, I'm not a jackass so much as a foreigner acting foreign-like. Even, and perhaps especially, among personal acquaintances. Also everyone figured I must be too illiterate even to read store signs.)

However, there's one group of people here who are constantly treating me as a foreigner, see me as a natural resource to be kept in a protective bubble and exploited to the fullest extent, encouraging local students to speak English with me: university officials. It goes on endlessly. At a recent reception, I was standing around talking with some local students, in Cantonese, and two dumbass suits who I've met before and know I speak Chinese crash our circle and start talking in English. They don't even give a listen to what I'm saying, it's fairly obvious their only purpose in coming over and interrupting was to shift our conversation into English and force the local students not to use Chinese with me. :pissed: :angry: :pissed: what the fuck? I pay money to come to your city and attend your university, I jump through all your hoops but in addition and you want me to provide free English tutoring wherever I go??? I really have no use for the culture of English-language and foreigner worship in academia.

But if you speak good Chinese and avoid university administrators, you should find no trouble being accepted among Chinese people and being treated like you're just another member of society, without constant reminders of your foreign status. My friends here are my friends cuz they're my friends, not cuz they wanna practice English or they think it's cool being seen with a foreigner and wanna show me off to all their friends (an attitude I encountered a lot people in Japan, namely among the people in all these "international friendship" type associations).

SunWuKong

11-23-2002, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 23 2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 22 2002, 02:05 PM
er...  well you'd have to be VERY VERY acclimitated to chinese culture.  i mean if you're fluent in chinese and you've lived in the culture (and that's very different from academic knowledge of the culture) long enough to be perfectly comfortable in it, then your friends are going to treat you as if you were chinese.  i mean if you're a westerner who's like this, there will always be the underlying thought that you're not genetically chinese, just because you look so different, but in terms of how you're treated, you'd be treated just like the chinese people around you.  this is what happens with alot of brits and indians that grew up in HK and who are fluent in cantonese.  but i'm not sure how it is for mixed chinese people.  maybe Alibaba can talk about that.  he's mixed and he's actually living in HK right now.  as i understand it, he gets frustrated with people trying to speak to him in english when he can converse in cantonese.   :)  (but you know Ali, i'm thinking that maybe you can't completely pull of the accentless cantonese, and combined with your mixed features, that's why they're trying to talk to you in english, because i know white people and indian people who can pull of the accentless cantonese and they're spoken to in cantonese)  i think if you're east asian and you become sinofied, you might even be considered chinese by some of the people around you.  i've never met someone like this though, but i know there is a small community of koreans who have lived in HK for a long time.  some probably were even born and raised there.  

all in all, chinese people look to culture more than genetics (compared to koreans and japanese).  china has a history of assimilating neighboring peoples into their culture, so i think that's probably why chinese people are more accepting of people to be part of their society.
well, as I've said, I have a Hakka accent when I speak Cantonese. I don't have the ABC accent nor the Western accent, and my tones are fine, but I'm obviously not an HK native. Sometimes on the phone (e.g. calling up shops or government offices) I'm mistaken for a mainlander, and if I ask too many stupid questions demonstrating I'm not a local, I'll start getting a bunch of really irritated replies in Mandarin. But I'm not really getting spoken to in English anymore, except from people who approach me without having heard me speak. Maybe I'm starting to lose the accent. :dance:

Basically, people who hear me talking know my Cantonese is fine and so they treat me as Chinese. There's no more presumption that I'm illiterate, like I was getting a few months ago, so, for example, guys at the travel agency will give me informational pamphlets written in Chinese (rather than not bothering to give it to me and making me ask for it myself only to hear them claim they don't have an informational pamphlet, when they really mean the only one they have is written in Chinese), and store clerks will get annoyed and point to a monolingual Chinese sign if I ask some annoying question whose answer is clearly printed on a sign. More importantly, people know I have no excuse for being clueless, so if I screw up and go against social norms, I'm a jackass. A friend will usually call me on it and tell me to stop acting like a jackass. (In Japan, on the other hand, if I screw up and go against social norms, I'm not a jackass so much as a foreigner acting foreign-like. Even, and perhaps especially, among personal acquaintances. Also everyone figured I must be too illiterate even to read store signs.)

However, there's one group of people here who are constantly treating me as a foreigner, see me as a natural resource to be kept in a protective bubble and exploited to the fullest extent, encouraging local students to speak English with me: university officials. It goes on endlessly. At a recent reception, I was standing around talking with some local students, in Cantonese, and two dumbass suits who I've met before and know I speak Chinese crash our circle and start talking in English. They don't even give a listen to what I'm saying, it's fairly obvious their only purpose in coming over and interrupting was to shift our conversation into English and force the local students not to use Chinese with me. :pissed: :angry: :pissed: what the fuck? I pay money to come to your city and attend your university, I jump through all your hoops but in addition and you want me to provide free English tutoring wherever I go??? I really have no use for the culture of English-language and foreigner worship in academia.

But if you speak good Chinese and avoid university administrators, you should find no trouble being accepted among Chinese people and being treated like you're just another member of society, without constant reminders of your foreign status. My friends here are my friends cuz they're my friends, not cuz they wanna practice English or they think it's cool being seen with a foreigner and wanna show me off to all their friends (an attitude I encountered a lot people in Japan, namely among the people in all these "international friendship" type associations).
hahahh that's funny that people mistake you for a mainlander

and about those two suits that started talking to you in english at that reception, i have a suspicion that they wanted to flaunt their "good" english in front of the locals... it's stupid.