Gwailo and Lofan [Archive] - Yellowworld Forums

kasia

11-17-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by ChairmanMah@Nov 17 2002, 12:10 AM
I've heard it before but i don't use the term since i speak english almost all the time.

But my friend who's white says that because the term addresses him by his race therefore it is racist.

I think he's kinda right.

What do you think?

I heard the term from my father and grandfather and i'm sure everyone uses it. I don't know if we mean it to be racist or not.

I never thought anythign of it.
it's not racist merely because it addresses him by his race. a white person calling me chinese is addressing me by my race, but that wouldn't constitute 'racist'...or would it?

gwai-lo = ghost man
gwai poh - = ghost woman.

i have no idea what lo faan means.

i don't think the terms are always used offensively--depends on who's saying it and in what context.

hormiga

11-17-2002, 11:34 AM

Okay looks like us young folks can't figure this out, so there's just one thing left go to your grandparents and ask them to explain it (that is IF they know) :angry: .

hormiga

11-17-2002, 11:38 AM

Getting back to your original question, I think the two examples you've given are probably more acceptable than BOK GWAI! :D

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 11:43 AM

i've never seen lo faan written before, but i'm almost certain it's the same faan as faan ke (tomato) and faan syu (sweet potato). it means western (technically it's "barbarian").

http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/char.cgi?756A.gif

deez nuts

11-17-2002, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 02:43 PM
faan syu (sweet potato).
Dai Faan Syu from Lo Fu Zhi! :D

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 17 2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 02:43 PM
faan syu (sweet potato).
Dai Faan Syu from Lo Fu Zhi! :D
there is a canadian asian-themed clothing store that sells cool looking t-shirts of Lo Fu Zhi looking bad-ass. :) can't seem to find the link to it though.

blue__blood

11-17-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 17 2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 02:43 PM
faan syu (sweet potato).
Dai Faan Syu from Lo Fu Zhi! :D
there is a canadian asian-themed clothing store that sells cool looking t-shirts of Lo Fu Zhi looking bad-ass. :) can't seem to find the link to it though.
heh, they're a great trio.

Anyhow, I'm pretty sure it's that "faan" too but for some reason, that term (faan gwai lo) comes across to me as racist as opposed to just "gwai lo."

enygma

11-17-2002, 03:39 PM

umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race? sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc. i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it. as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).

kasia

11-17-2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 07:43 PM
i've never seen lo faan written before, but i'm almost certain it's the same faan as faan ke (tomato) and faan syu (sweet potato). it means western (technically it's "barbarian").

http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/char.cgi?756A.gif
i think you're right, actually. i remember my grandmother explaining it to me a long time ago.

lo faan = b/c white people eat a lot of yam

loh baak tau = b/c japanese people eat a lot of radish

is this right?

BeTheReds

11-17-2002, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by enygma@Nov 17 2002, 11:39 PM
umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race? sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc. i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it. as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).
Well i don't know about gwailo and lofan either cuz I don't speak chinese, but I have heard that that term is derogitory from some chinese people. I am not claiming that I know anything about it, just saying what I heard. I do get angry about words like

gaijin - literally "other people" and refers to whites.. where as asians would just be whatever country they come from and jin.

In Korean the word yang-nom means something like that "detestible western fool" and refers to white people, when hayansaram or baekin would be fine, tho most people just call them migukin or miguksaram, which again I don't like because it assumes that all americans are white.

SunWuKong

11-17-2002, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 17 2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 07:43 PM
i've never seen lo faan written before, but i'm almost certain it's the same faan as faan ke (tomato) and faan syu (sweet potato). it means western (technically it's "barbarian").

http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/char.cgi?756A.gif
i think you're right, actually. i remember my grandmother explaining it to me a long time ago.

lo faan = b/c white people eat a lot of yam

loh baak tau = b/c japanese people eat a lot of radish

is this right?
louh faan because westerners had been referred to as faan yan. (watch your tone with faan there, because if you say the wrong faan, you're just saying "normal people").

loh baak tau - now this i would personally consider derogatory. and yes it's because japanese people eat alot of radish - which cantonese people refer to as loh baak, the same word for carrot. even my grandfather, who is a staunch communist supporter and who experienced starvation because of japanese occupation, doesn''t use this term anymore.

there is actually an organisation in HK (started by a chinese HKer) that advocates the elimination of gwaai louh from everyday cantonese conversation, and claiming that it's racist. people in HK don't use the term louh faan. there is a term with the same exact sounding words that HKers use to refer to pirated CDs. faan as in faan baan. i personally don't use the term gwaai louh but would use the term louh faan (in HK i say sai yan - "western people"). i don't find gwaai louh racist per se, i think it's just one of thousands of cantonese terms that are very rough around the edges. it's like you wouldn't really say chaih louh right in front of a cop. you'd say chaih yan. but i don't advocate people stop using it. they don't use it as an insult, they just use it to refer to westerners in a completely neutral manner. hell, most local HKers have an inferiority complex toward westerners.

there are some westerners in HK that would like to see people stop using gwaai louh in normal conversation. but the thing is that the westerners who are actually proficient or fluent in cantonese don't care that this term is used and may even use the term on themselves. it's the westerners who don't know any cantonese or only know a few terms here and there that don't like the term. and i find that to be preposterous because they don't understand the language and they're trying to change it. they equate the term to "chink" and i find that plain insulting because they're basically defenestrating an entire history of racism and imperialism in western civilisation.

Rmb-Zr

11-18-2002, 10:43 PM

Ah. Lo Faan. Many people have already said the way the tone should be said so i'll add one more examples...

Faan lay - come back (hmm if you think of this one it's like a paradox in chinese faan=come lay= leave)

As whether or not it is derogatory. . . I think it was originally meant to be.. but over the years it's been used so often it's lost it's impact. Gwai lo is even more common and acceptable. I have a white friend that refers to himself as dai gwai lo. cause he's a tall white guy.

I never knew the term lo baak tao was used towards Japanese people... Come to think of it, I have a old comic book called yerng chong tao (onion head). and in it there is a lo baak tao...

I definitly hear people using Gwai lo more then the more politically correct version : "sai yun". I personally use Gwai lo more too... actually i can't remember the last time i said sai yun.... man i'm racist?

bwc

11-19-2002, 12:02 AM

gwai lo...definately not racist.

blue__blood

11-19-2002, 12:10 AM

Heh, I just remembered the Mandarin (yeurn gwai) and the Taiwanese (lo ar) version of "gwai lo." If peeps think "gwai lo" is racist, wait till they learn Mando..

syc

11-19-2002, 12:37 AM

I dont know about gwai lo being racist. I still use it. But if you dont think gwai lo is racist what do you think about Hak Gwai? the term used for black people.

SunWuKong

11-19-2002, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Rmb-Zr@Nov 19 2002, 01:43 AM
Faan lay - come back (hmm if you think of this one it's like a paradox in chinese faan=come lay= leave)
ah... hahhah, no that's not exactly right.

the lei in the cantonese faan lei is not the same lei in lei hoih (leave). as a matter of fact, it is supposed to be pronounced faan loih, but some cantonese words are pronounced so many different ways by different people. if a HKer goes to Shenzhen and opens his mouth to start talking, people in Shenzhen will immediately know that they're talking to a HKer by the way he pronounce his words.

SunWuKong

11-19-2002, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by syc@Nov 19 2002, 03:37 AM
I dont know about gwai lo being racist. I still use it. But if you dont think gwai lo is racist what do you think about  Hak Gwai? the term used for black people.
i don't know what to think of huhk gwaai. i personally don't use it.

AliBabaIncorporated

11-19-2002, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 19 2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Rmb-Zr@Nov 19 2002, 01:43 AM
Faan lay - come back (hmm if you think of this one it's like a paradox in chinese faan=come lay= leave)
ah... hahhah, no that's not exactly right.

the lei in the cantonese faan lei is not the same lei in lei hoih (leave). as a matter of fact, it is supposed to be pronounced faan loih, but some cantonese words are pronounced so many different ways by different people. if a HKer goes to Shenzhen and opens his mouth to start talking, people in Shenzhen will immediately know that they're talking to a HKer by the way he pronounce his words.
what's with all the random "H" at the end of everything? :P I always thought lei (pronounced the same way as the first syllable of "divorce") is just the corrupted pronunciation of lai (pronounced the same way as the surname "Lai") ... and etymologically separate from the written word "loi."

deez nuts

11-19-2002, 08:13 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Nov 19 2002, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
i don't know what to think of huhk gwaai. i personally don't use it.[/b][/quote]
haak gwaai, bai gwaai my mom used to yell at my friends for saying it.

when I was kid she said adding "gwaai" is low class. Heck, I got beat cuz of it because I adopted the saying from my cantonese friends.

SunWuKong

11-19-2002, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 19 2002, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 19 2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Rmb-Zr@Nov 19 2002, 01:43 AM
Faan lay - come back (hmm if you think of this one it's like a paradox in chinese faan=come lay= leave)
ah... hahhah, no that's not exactly right.

the lei in the cantonese faan lei is not the same lei in lei hoih (leave). as a matter of fact, it is supposed to be pronounced faan loih, but some cantonese words are pronounced so many different ways by different people. if a HKer goes to Shenzhen and opens his mouth to start talking, people in Shenzhen will immediately know that they're talking to a HKer by the way he pronounce his words.
what's with all the random "H" at the end of everything? :P I always thought lei (pronounced the same way as the first syllable of "divorce") is just the corrupted pronunciation of lai (pronounced the same way as the surname "Lai") ... and etymologically separate from the written word "loi."
wait, which lei are we talking about now?
the lei in lei hoih is: <img src='http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/char.cgi?96e2.gif[/img]
and the lei in faan lei, which really is faan loih is: http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/char.cgi?4f86.gif

for some reason, chinese input doesn't work for me on YW... so i keep having to pull out the images of the words...

oh and the reason there are so many "H"s in those cantonese romanisations is because i'm trying to use the Yale system, which is supposed to be the "official" romanisation. i picked it up from this dictionary i bought at Page One. look for it, it's a good dictionary, it has the cantonese romanisation as well as mandarin pinyin for the chinese words. and it even has an index for looking up words by cantonese romanisation.

kitty

11-19-2002, 08:40 AM

noriko

11-19-2002, 12:06 PM

i've never been to china, so I can't comment on any of that, but in japan, i've always kind of been bothered that everyone who's non-asian is called a gaijin, except black people. I was with a couple of friends, some japanese, some white, and one black. We were talking in English, and it was probably pretty obvious that we were from America. I heard people whispering to each other about the "gaijin to kokujin" (foreigners and black person). So why is it that non-asian foreigners-- white, hispanic, european-- are gaijin, but black people aren't, even if they're american?

is it just that everyone assumes american= white, blonde person? or what?

and also, i find it pretty funny that people in japan seem to assume that no non-japanese speak the language at all...it was ironic, b/c the aforementioned black friend is fluent in japanese, knows it better than me. Or maybe they just didn't care that they were beign rude cos we're foreigners? :confused:

bwc

11-19-2002, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by noriko@Nov 19 2002, 08:06 PM
Or maybe they just didn't care that they were beign rude cos we're foreigners? :confused:
yes. That and the fact that either you or your companions were not japanese

BeTheReds

11-19-2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by noriko@Nov 19 2002, 08:06 PM
i've never been to china, so I can't comment on any of that, but in japan, i've always kind of been bothered that everyone who's non-asian is called a gaijin, except black people. I was with a couple of friends, some japanese, some white, and one black. We were talking in English, and it was probably pretty obvious that we were from America. I heard people whispering to each other about the "gaijin to kokujin" (foreigners and black person). So why is it that non-asian foreigners-- white, hispanic, european-- are gaijin, but black people aren't, even if they're american?

is it just that everyone assumes american= white, blonde person? or what?

and also, i find it pretty funny that people in japan seem to assume that no non-japanese speak the language at all...it was ironic, b/c the aforementioned black friend is fluent in japanese, knows it better than me. Or maybe they just didn't care that they were beign rude cos we're foreigners? :confused:
Well I agree with you on the gaijin thing. I don't see why Koreans and Chinese are not considered gaijin other than the fact that they are fellow asians.

The fact that everyone is freakin amazed that someone who is not asian can speak Japanese I kinda understand tho. In education system here they are taught that the only way to communicate with non Japanese is to speak English. Most Americans don't give a crap when we see Asian people who can speak English because English is a language which is spoken all over the world in so many countires, and there are plenty of Asian Americans who speak english natively, so an asian person speaking broken english does not impress us.

Japanese on the other hand is spoken in one. That means you have to have a lot of interest in that one country to learn to speak that language, even if you suck at it.

If you look like you are white but you can speak JApanese fluently, then it's very surprisng because it is rare. Just take a trip here and observe the majority of the white people and listen to their ear stinging accents.

I don't know why black people are lumped into a seperate category besides gaijin. But then why are asians put in another category besides gaijin? It's because Japan sees the world with some sort of racial heirarchy, which is not their fault, but the fault of their shitty educational system and stuf they see on TV. And the fact that 99.9% of the populatuon is Japanese.

enygma

11-19-2002, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 19 2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 17 2002, 11:39 PM
umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race?  sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc.  i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it.  as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).
I'm not sure where I see a difference between gook, chink, and all the words being thrown around.
i'm not sure i understand your confusion. you don't see the difference between gook, jap, and chink, or you don't see the difference between gook , jap, chink, gwailo, etc.?

kitty

11-19-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 19 2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 17 2002, 11:39 PM
umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race? sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc. i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it. as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).
I'm not sure where I see a difference between gook, chink, and all the words being thrown around.
i'm not sure i understand your confusion. you don't see the difference between gook, jap, and chink, or you don't see the difference between gook , jap, chink, gwailo, etc.?
Yeah- I don't see how calling a white person gwai lo is any different than them calling an asian gook or chink.

kasia

11-19-2002, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 19 2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 17 2002, 11:39 PM
umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race? sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc. i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it. as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).
I'm not sure where I see a difference between gook, chink, and all the words being thrown around.
i'm not sure i understand your confusion. you don't see the difference between gook, jap, and chink, or you don't see the difference between gook , jap, chink, gwailo, etc.?
Yeah- I don't see how calling a white person gwai lo is any different than them calling an asian gook or chink.
because gwai lo can be used in a nonderagatory manner. do you speak cantonese?

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 19 2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 19 2002, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 17 2002, 11:39 PM
umm..so if someone calls us chinese, korean, japanese, or even asian is being racist because they're describing us according to our race? sheesh, as long as they don't call us gooks, chinks, japs, etc. i'm not sure what gwailo or lofan means, but i don't think there's anything wrong with it. as long as you don't call them a cracker (now THAT'S being derogatory-to a white person, i guess).
I'm not sure where I see a difference between gook, chink, and all the words being thrown around.
i'm not sure i understand your confusion. you don't see the difference between gook, jap, and chink, or you don't see the difference between gook , jap, chink, gwailo, etc.?
Yeah- I don't see how calling a white person gwai lo is any different than them calling an asian gook or chink.
because gwai lo is used in a neutral manner. and because there's an entire history of subjugation of asian people in western civilisation, many times with the use of words like chink, gook, jap, etc etc.

deez nuts

11-20-2002, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 10:18 AM

because gwai lo is used in a neutral manner.  and because there's an entire history of subjugation of asian people in western civilisation, many times with the use of words like chink, gook, jap, etc etc.
Gwai lo is a relatively neutral term. It's not only directed towards whites. It just essentially anyone not of Chinese origin. Other Asians besides Chinese people ie Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese etc etc can be referred to as Gwai Lo, as well. I recall asking my mom (whom is Cantonese) about the term. But my memory is vague, since it was awhile ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Cantonese speakers out there.

enygma

11-20-2002, 07:31 AM

from my understanding of the term, "gwailo", it's not really used in a racist manner. the term is used to describe a person who is not asian. plain and simple. however, gook, jap, and chink have all been used in the past, and still is used, to demean those of asian descent. like i said early, i think calling someone gwailo is the same as calling that person white. i'm not being derogatory because i'm not assuming ethnicity or demeaning it. if i called that person a trailer park cracker, then that's being derogatory. i mean, someone mentioned this earlier, koreans call some white people miguk saram (american), but this doesn't encompass the europeans (wehguk saram) or the non-white americans so we also call them hayan saram (white person) or begguin. we're not being derogatory in any way and we don't mean any disrespect. it's the same when someone calls us asian.

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 20 2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 10:18 AM

because gwai lo is used in a neutral manner. and because there's an entire history of subjugation of asian people in western civilisation, many times with the use of words like chink, gook, jap, etc etc.
Gwai lo is a relatively neutral term. It's not only directed towards whites. It just essentially anyone not of Chinese origin. Other Asians besides Chinese people ie Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese etc etc can be referred to as Gwai Lo, as well. I recall asking my mom (whom is Cantonese) about the term. But my memory is vague, since it was awhile ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Cantonese speakers out there.
i don't think gwai lo is used for other Asians. i've never heard it used that way before.

deez nuts

11-20-2002, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 10:51 AM

i don't think gwai lo is used for other Asians. i've never heard it used that way before.
I've never heard it used, either.

But hypothetically, can it be used? Like I said, I have minimal command of Cantonese. But if I recalled my mom's explanation correctly (which was like 15 years ago) it sorta can be used, right? Heh, ok stretching here.

I don't know how gwai lo became a negative term. I assume it's the same as lo wai in Mandarin?

ellsworth81

11-20-2002, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 17 2002, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 17 2002, 02:43 PM
faan syu (sweet potato).
Dai Faan Syu from Lo Fu Zhi! :D
Word... what a good comic

ellsworth81

11-20-2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 20 2002, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 10:18 AM

because gwai lo is used in a neutral manner. and because there's an entire history of subjugation of asian people in western civilisation, many times with the use of words like chink, gook, jap, etc etc.
Gwai lo is a relatively neutral term. It's not only directed towards whites. It just essentially anyone not of Chinese origin. Other Asians besides Chinese people ie Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese etc etc can be referred to as Gwai Lo, as well. I recall asking my mom (whom is Cantonese) about the term. But my memory is vague, since it was awhile ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the Cantonese speakers out there.
hmm, not that i'd recall. it's mainly reserved for white people. in my family and my family's restaurant, every racial group that walks in has their own derogatory name hehe. but i'd say gwai lo is mainly reserved for westerners in the very least.

ellsworth81

11-20-2002, 08:47 AM

but back to the topic... lo fan isn't used much around my area, i don't think gwai lo is intentionally racist. Maybe originally it arose out of anti-Western sentiment and resentment when westerners started interacting with China/Asia. When I say interacting, I mean invading and exploiting.

In any case, they're simply the terms we use to refer to white people. we could call them "baak yen" (or bai ren), but that sounds kinda stupid (or just too proper and literal). I guess Asians don't think how to be PC in their language :lol:

It's a term that's used out of convenience and I guess laziness in a sense. if you penalized every non-asian that has called you Asian, then there'd be problems.

there was actually a minor debate about whether haak gwai (hei ren) is racist. the "progressive" ppl wanted to move away from it and start teaching the local kids otherwise. what do you guys think? :huh:

now that i think about it, the only derogatory element in the term is the "gwai", which i think loosely translates into monster/devil/ghost etc.

blue__blood

11-20-2002, 09:36 AM

No, "gwai lo" is pretty specific to whites in general. Just as how "hak gwai" is specific to blacks, "cha" is for dark skinned Indians, "ga jei" for Japanese, and "lo wa que" for the Chinese peeps who grew up near (or in) India. There's no real common slang for other ethnics, at least not that I can think of off the top of my head.

There are politically correct terms for all these groups, and they are used for anything remotely formal, but in just casual talk, these are the accepted terms. ("baak yun" isn't really used, it's more like "sei fong yun")

kitty

11-20-2002, 10:03 AM

I speak mandarin, but my parents don't really talk about whites to me and my sis so i'm not too familiar with these terms. i guess I can see the whole historical/racial context thing being the difference. I just thought that they were mostly used in a generalized context that was parly derogatory.

And it's used to generalize based on race, kind of like gook or chink... I guess everyone's saying that gook and chink are different because they were once used to oppress asians, whereas asians didn't oppress anyone with those words.

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 20 2002, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 10:51 AM

i don't think gwai lo is used for other Asians.  i've never heard it used that way before.
I've never heard it used, either.

But hypothetically, can it be used? Like I said, I have minimal command of Cantonese. But if I recalled my mom's explanation correctly (which was like 15 years ago) it sorta can be used, right? Heh, ok stretching here.

I don't know how gwai lo became a negative term. I assume it's the same as lo wai in Mandarin?
well westerners were named gwei lo for their pale complexion. pale like ghosts. so i don't think it's used to refer to other asians, and i've never heard it used for other asians.

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by ellsworth81@Nov 20 2002, 11:47 AM
In any case, they're simply the terms we use to refer to white people. we could call them "baak yen" (or bai ren), but that sounds kinda stupid (or just too proper and literal). I guess Asians don't think how to be PC in their language :lol:
yeah cantonese is a very rough language. if you literally translate a conversation between two friends, it would sound like they're pissed at each other. :P

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 20 2002, 12:36 PM
No, "gwai lo" is pretty specific to whites in general. Just as how "hak gwai" is specific to blacks, "cha" is for dark skinned Indians, "ga jei" for Japanese, and "lo wa que" for the Chinese peeps who grew up near (or in) India. There's no real common slang for other ethnics, at least not that I can think of off the top of my head.

There are politically correct terms for all these groups, and they are used for anything remotely formal, but in just casual talk, these are the accepted terms. ("baak yun" isn't really used, it's more like "sei fong yun")
i think gaa jai and ah cha are definitely derogatory. i wouldn't use them. but they're definitely used in casual talk for alot of people...

wah kiu (hua qiao in mandarin) really just means overseas chinese and it's applied to overseas chinese everywhere around the world. there are 30 million of us. :) loh wah kiu is used to refer to overseas chinese that have been living overseas for many many years or just to refer to older generations of overseas chinese.

hua qiao or hua ren is what i identify with more so than chinese american.

AliBabaIncorporated

11-20-2002, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 21 2002, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 20 2002, 12:36 PM
No, "gwai lo" is pretty specific to whites in general. Just as how "hak gwai" is specific to blacks, "cha" is for dark skinned Indians, "ga jei" for Japanese, and "lo wa que" for the Chinese peeps who grew up near (or in) India. There's no real common slang for other ethnics, at least not that I can think of off the top of my head.

There are politically correct terms for all these groups, and they are used for anything remotely formal, but in just casual talk, these are the accepted terms. ?"baak yun" isn't really used, it's more like "sei fong yun")
i think gaa jai and ah cha are definitely derogatory. i wouldn't use them. but they're definitely used in casual talk for alot of people...
hmm? the word "gaa jai" gets used a lot even in print. TVB magazine even used it on its cover (part of the headline of an article about some singer's effort to break into the japanese market) ... but yeah, I think "ah chaa" is pretty derogatory.

edit: though in all fairness, it should be noted that a magazine written in Cantonese slang in the first place is already kinda low-brow and rough, not that concerned with political correctness ...

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 20 2002, 01:35 PM
edit: though in all fairness, it should be noted that a magazine written in Cantonese slang in the first place is already kinda low-brow and rough, not that concerned with political correctness ...
exactly.

i guess maybe it's just a personal opinion. i certainly know that it's used alot, especially amongst the locals that don't have much exposure to other cultures (not to put them down or anything, because those people are what the real HK is all about and i love them). the people i personally know in HK say yuht buhn jai instead. well, i think my grandfather still uses gaa jai, but i think that's probably a whole lot better than loh bahk tau, which he no doubt used in the past.

enygma

11-20-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 10:03 AM

And it's used to generalize based on race, kind of like gook or chink... I guess everyone's saying that gook and chink are different because they were once used to oppress asians, whereas asians didn't oppress anyone with those words.
but then, what else would they be called? i'm not chinese, myself, so i can offer no insight here. but, if i called a white person begguin or hayan saram, am i being racist, too? because i think that's better than calling all white people miguk saram (american) since i'll be assuming that all white people are americans, which is generalizing, and not all americans are white, either. again, from my understanding, the words are not used to oppress.

deez nuts

11-20-2002, 11:09 AM

Cantonese so complicated!

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 20 2002, 02:09 PM
Cantonese so complicated!
the thing is that there are non-implicit levels of politeness in cantonese. if we are to use all words that are not "rough around the edges", we'd all sound like newscasts. and personally i think that pretty much destroys the cantonese dialect. but hey, if cantonese speakers all suddenly decide to a use the absolute most polite of terms, then fine, they are the owners of the language and they can do what they want with it.

kitty

11-20-2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 10:03 AM

And it's used to generalize based on race, kind of like gook or chink... I guess everyone's saying that gook and chink are different because they were once used to oppress asians, whereas asians didn't oppress anyone with those words.
but then, what else would they be called? i'm not chinese, myself, so i can offer no insight here. but, if i called a white person begguin or hayan saram, am i being racist, too? because i think that's better than calling all white people miguk saram (american) since i'll be assuming that all white people are americans, which is generalizing, and not all americans are white, either. again, from my understanding, the words are not used to oppress.
Yeah, I guess I'm seeing the point... the words AREN'T being used to oppress, so it's not the same as gook, chink, or jap. And I didn't know what Cantonese was "rough" in literal translation, b/c I thought the translation sounded kinda harsh.

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 10:03 AM

And it's used to generalize based on race, kind of like gook or chink... I guess everyone's saying that gook and chink are different because they were once used to oppress asians, whereas asians didn't oppress anyone with those words.
but then, what else would they be called? i'm not chinese, myself, so i can offer no insight here. but, if i called a white person begguin or hayan saram, am i being racist, too? because i think that's better than calling all white people miguk saram (american) since i'll be assuming that all white people are americans, which is generalizing, and not all americans are white, either. again, from my understanding, the words are not used to oppress.
Yeah, I guess I'm seeing the point... the words AREN'T being used to oppress, so it's not the same as gook, chink, or jap. And I didn't know what Cantonese was "rough" in literal translation, b/c I thought the translation sounded kinda harsh.
cantonese is a harsh language. :)

Uncle Tat

11-20-2002, 02:27 PM

lofan means foreigner

gwailo means white ghost (white people)

haitgwai means black ghost (black people)

Eh who cares if your friend thinks it's rude. He's a dumb white guy! Just buy him some General Tso chicken and he'll grin like an idiot. j/k

ChinaLama

11-20-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 20 2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by kittygirl@Nov 20 2002, 10:03 AM

And it's used to generalize based on race, kind of like gook or chink... I guess everyone's saying that gook and chink are different because they were once used to oppress asians, whereas asians didn't oppress anyone with those words.
but then, what else would they be called? i'm not chinese, myself, so i can offer no insight here. but, if i called a white person begguin or hayan saram, am i being racist, too? because i think that's better than calling all white people miguk saram (american) since i'll be assuming that all white people are americans, which is generalizing, and not all americans are white, either. again, from my understanding, the words are not used to oppress.
Yeah, I guess I'm seeing the point... the words AREN'T being used to oppress, so it's not the same as gook, chink, or jap. And I didn't know what Cantonese was "rough" in literal translation, b/c I thought the translation sounded kinda harsh.
maybe in another time, but it'd be pretty hard for a bunch of Hongkies to oppress the Honkies. :)

blue__blood

11-20-2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 01:30 PM
wah kiu (hua qiao in mandarin) really just means overseas chinese and it's applied to overseas chinese everywhere around the world. there are 30 million of us. :) loh wah kiu is used to refer to overseas chinese that have been living overseas for many many years or just to refer to older generations of overseas chinese.

hua qiao or hua ren is what i identify with more so than chinese american.
It does but back a few decades, its "casual" meaning was specific to those who lived in/near India. If you talk with some of the older generation in Macau/Canton about the "good old days," they'll use the term to mean this.

Personally, I would identify to "tong yun" more, "wah qiu" is soo... leurn :P

SunWuKong

11-20-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 20 2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 01:30 PM
wah kiu (hua qiao in mandarin) really just means overseas chinese and it's applied to overseas chinese everywhere around the world. there are 30 million of us. :) loh wah kiu is used to refer to overseas chinese that have been living overseas for many many years or just to refer to older generations of overseas chinese.

hua qiao or hua ren is what i identify with more so than chinese american.
It does but back a few decades, its "casual" meaning was specific to those who lived in/near India. If you talk with some of the older generation in Macau/Canton about the "good old days," they'll use the term to mean this.

Personally, I would identify to "tong yun" more, "wah qiu" is soo... leurn :P
huh? no seriously, hua qiao means overseas chinese. india has never been exactly a popular place for the chinese dyaspora. before WW2 favorite destinations were in southeast asia, and after WW2 it was western countries. look up any texts about overseas chinese. hua qiao, or wah kiuh in cantonese, doesn't mean specifically the chinese people in india. i don't think there are enough chinese people there to even have a term specifically for them. i've never even heard anybody talk about overseas chinese living in india. however, since they are overseas chinese, they would be under the umbrella term of hua qiao.

i don't know about australia, but i think tong yahn is used mostly in north america. everywhere else, we call ourselves wah yahn or wah kiuh. if you call a BBC a tong yahn, he'd think that's weird.

there are some really good books about overseas chinese in HK. if you ever visit, make sure you pick up some.

blue__blood

11-20-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 20 2002, 08:56 PM
huh? no seriously, hua qiao means overseas chinese. india has never been exactly a popular place for the chinese dyaspora. before WW2 favorite destinations were in southeast asia, and after WW2 it was western countries. look up any texts about overseas chinese. hua qiao, or wah kiuh in cantonese, doesn't mean specifically the chinese people in india. i don't think there are enough chinese people there to even have a term specifically for them. i've never even heard anybody talk about overseas chinese living in india. however, since they are overseas chinese, they would be under the umbrella term of hua qiao.

i don't know about australia, but i think tong yahn is used mostly in north america. everywhere else, we call ourselves wah yahn or wah kiuh. if you call a BBC a tong yahn, he'd think that's weird.

there are some really good books about overseas chinese in HK. if you ever visit, make sure you pick up some.
heh, I think this is becoming a flaunting of knowledge on both sides so I'm ending it after this one.

Anyhow, yes, I'm quite aware of what "wah kiu" means. India and area has never been but there were enough coming back to Canto/Macau at one time, saying "wah kiu" to the locals referred to those peeps, that's all.

"tong yun" is specific to immigrants, in reference to the tong dynasty. "wah yun" is more loose, at least in the usage I've seen.

ANYHOW, to sum it all up.... there's many slangs for different ethnics in Canto, some are derogratory, some aren't. "Gwai lo" isn't :P

AliBabaIncorporated

11-21-2002, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 21 2002, 09:56 AM
there are some really good books about overseas chinese in HK. if you ever visit, make sure you pick up some.
any recommendations? oh yeah, and what's leurn? can't catch the meaning from cantonese pinyin ...

SunWuKong

11-21-2002, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 20 2002, 11:27 PM
Anyhow, yes, I'm quite aware of what "wah kiu" means. India and area has never been but there were enough coming back to Canto/Macau at one time, saying "wah kiu" to the locals referred to those peeps, that's all.

"tong yun" is specific to immigrants, in reference to the tong dynasty. "wah yun" is more loose, at least in the usage I've seen.
i can bet you almost anything that wah kiu was used by the locals to refers to ANY overseas chinese.

tong yuhn and wah yuhn aren't specifically used to chinese immigrants, but it's what overseas chinese call chinese people anywhere around the world, including asia.

SunWuKong

11-21-2002, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 21 2002, 03:31 AM
any recommendations? oh yeah, and what's leurn? can't catch the meaning from cantonese pinyin ...
i'm not sure what "leurn" is either.

two books i really like so far are:

"Sons of the Yellow Emperor" by Lynn Pan
this is an easy read and written for the casual reader. it has alot of historical and cultural details about overseas chinese communities in southeast asia, but less on the communities in western countries.

"Last Half Century of Overseas Chinese" edited by Elizabeth Sinn.
this is very academic and it's a collection of papers (some in English and some in Chinese) that were presented at a conference held at HKU (i think) about Overseas Chinese. it concentrates on the dyaspora after WW2. scholars around the world were invited to talk. it talks about a wide range of topics and spends alot of time on the hua qiao identity.

there is a really good bookstore in TST that you might want to check out. but for the life of me i can't remember the name of the store or the street it's on. it has two stories and it's on one of those side streets that are parallel to Nathan Road, and it's pretty close to HMV (but not on the same street). look for it.

blue__blood

11-22-2002, 11:23 AM

"leurn"... bad romanisation.. uhm, slang for "outdated"

SunWuKong

11-22-2002, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 22 2002, 02:23 PM
"leurn"... bad romanisation.. uhm, slang for "outdated"
still can't make out what word that's supposed to be... :confused:

ChairmanMah

11-23-2002, 10:40 AM

:) thanx for the input guys. I'll be sure to make my friend read this thread.

blue__blood

11-24-2002, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 22 2002, 02:41 PM
still can't make out what word that's supposed to be... :confused:
I *think* it can be written, don't think this is going to work out well with me trying to explain how to write it though :P

But it should be with "leur" (woman) as its radical and "leurn" on the right, "leurn" as in leurn leurn (first wife of an emporer).

SunWuKong

11-24-2002, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 24 2002, 06:18 PM
I *think* it can be written, don't think this is going to work out well with me trying to explain how to write it though :P

But it should be with "leur" (woman) as its radical and "leurn" on the right, "leurn" as in leurn leurn (first wife of an emporer).
leung?

blue__blood

12-02-2002, 07:05 PM

heh, sorry I haven't replied for so long. Had a busy week. But uhm, unless you really, really want to know what I meant by "leurn," let's this forget I ever said it.

luv

12-02-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 25 2002, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by blue__blood@Nov 24 2002, 06:18 PM
I *think* it can be written, don't think this is going to work out well with me trying to explain how to write it though :P

But it should be with "leur" (woman) as its radical and "leurn" on the right, "leurn" as in leurn leurn (first wife of an emporer).
leung?
Not that I'm a good authority on what it means, but from what I gather from watching tons of Canto TV, I think the word is, SWK says, sounds closer to "leung" = outdated, tacky, clueless, old-fashioned.

Hey, "gwailo" or "lo-fan", my white friend(s) (who grew up in Chinese community tend to use "lo-fan" to describe themselves. Cuz barbarian ("fan") sounds more humanly than ghost ("gwai"). "Fan gwai lo" is just plain too long.

When Asian people say "American" does it automatically refer to white people? It didn't in suburbs where I grew up, but it does in the city (where there are way more Asians).

Azn Retribution

12-03-2002, 07:00 AM

Stupid gaijins
:D

hehe jp jp jp.

SunWuKong

07-15-2003, 11:02 AM

*revive*

deez nuts

07-15-2003, 11:19 AM

lo fan in cantonese = lo wai in mandarin?

SunWuKong

07-15-2003, 02:06 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chasiubao_Boy @ Jul 15 2003, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> lo fan in cantonese = lo wai in mandarin? [/b][/quote]
i think so.

BeTheReds

07-15-2003, 08:10 PM

I don't reallh have problems with these words cuz I don't really know what they mean, probably something similar to whitey, or white ghost, or whiteman or whatever.

What I dislike is how the terms that mean foreigner "gaijin, waegukkin, wai guo ren" are used to mean whites.

In Asia, not all foreigners are whites.

Next, people will use these words to describe people who are not foreigners, sometimes when they themselves are foreigners. It's no secret that fobby Koreans in the USA refer to whites in the USA as foreigners when in actuality the fobby Koreans are foreigners.

Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train. It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.

In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul? We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!" So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!" They were like all scared and surprised.

YuheiCarreau

07-15-2003, 08:54 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 15 2003, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't reallh have problems with these words cuz I don't really know what they mean, probably something similar to whitey, or white ghost, or whiteman or whatever.

What I dislike is how the terms that mean foreigner "gaijin, waegukkin, wai guo ren" are used to mean whites.

In Asia, not all foreigners are whites.

Next, people will use these words to describe people who are not foreigners, sometimes when they themselves are foreigners. It's no secret that fobby Koreans in the USA refer to whites in the USA as foreigners when in actuality the fobby Koreans are foreigners.

Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train. It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.

In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul? We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!" So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!" They were like all scared and surprised. [/b][/quote]
I think it's a matter of history. Japan, Korea, and the other nations of Asian have thousands of years of history and contact between their cultures. Whites are a relatively new addition to the mix, and that's why they get designated as "foreigners".

As to the matter of Japanese and Koreans outside of their home countries using the word foreigner to describe Whites, I think it comes from the mentality that foreigner does not mean "person from another country" as much as it does "person from a country that is not Japan / Korea". Does that make sense? Japan or Korea is the eternal homeland, the place where all Japanese and Koreans come from, therefor anyone who doesn't have Japanese or Korean ancestry is a foreigner.

BeTheReds

07-15-2003, 09:09 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Jul 16 2003, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 15 2003, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't reallh have problems with these words cuz I don't really know what they mean, probably something similar to whitey, or white ghost, or whiteman or whatever.

What I dislike is how the terms that mean foreigner "gaijin, waegukkin, wai guo ren" are used to mean whites.

In Asia, not all foreigners are whites.

Next, people will use these words to describe people who are not foreigners, sometimes when they themselves are foreigners.  It's no secret that fobby Koreans in the USA refer to whites in the USA as foreigners when in actuality the fobby Koreans are foreigners.

Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train.  It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.

In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul?  We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!"  So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!"  They were like all scared and surprised. [/b][/quote]
I think it's a matter of history. Japan, Korea, and the other nations of Asian have thousands of years of history and contact between their cultures. Whites are a relatively new addition to the mix, and that's why they get designated as "foreigners".

As to the matter of Japanese and Koreans outside of their home countries using the word foreigner to describe Whites, I think it comes from the mentality that foreigner does not mean "person from another country" as much as it does "person from a country that is not Japan / Korea". Does that make sense? Japan or Korea is the eternal homeland, the place where all Japanese and Koreans come from, therefor anyone who doesn't have Japanese or Korean ancestry is a foreigner. [/b][/quote]
Dude, you know what it means, look at the characters it is written with. OTHER COUNTRY PERSON.

SunWuKong

07-15-2003, 09:13 PM

i don't think people take these terms to literally mean "foreigners", but instead they're used more as "Westerner" - which yes, equates to white people.

BeTheReds

07-15-2003, 09:28 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 16 2003, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i don't think people take these terms to literally mean "foreigners", but instead they're used more as "Westerner" - which yes, equates to white people. [/b][/quote]
okay but then you have to take into account then that Asian Americans then are not westerners by this definition.

Therefore why is it justified for Asians to not consider Asian Americans as Americans, but not justified for White Americans t not consider Asian Americans as Americans?

You can look up what the word means in any dictionary. And if you go to the airport, there it is, the Nihon-jin line, and the Gaikokujin line. And Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese-Americans can't go to the Nihon-Jin line.

SunWuKong

07-15-2003, 09:40 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 16 2003, 12:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> okay but then you have to take into account then that Asian Americans then are not westerners by this definition.

Therefore why is it justified for Asians to not consider Asian Americans as Americans, but not justified for White Americans t not consider Asian Americans as Americans?

You can look up what the word means in any dictionary. And if you go to the airport, there it is, the Nihon-jin line, and the Gaikokujin line. And Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese-Americans can't go to the Nihon-Jin line. [/b][/quote]
like i said before, those terms are used to mean Westerner/white people. that is why Asian Americans are not referred to by those terms.

but whatever. it gets confusing because a lot of Asian people also use the term "American" to mean white people. i think you have to take into context that if white Americans are saying that Asian Americans are not American, then they're being exclusive.

so how do they distinguish between who can go in the Nihon-jin line, and who can go in the Gaikokujin line? by citizenship, i assume? i don't think there's anything wrong with that. the Nihon-jin line would probably go much quicker. HK airport also has a line for people with Permanent HK residency, and all they need to see is your HK ID card, no passport necessary - but there are non-Chinese ethnics with that status.

YuheiCarreau

07-15-2003, 09:51 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 16 2003, 12:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YuheiCarreau @ Jul 16 2003, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 15 2003, 11:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't reallh have problems with these words cuz I don't really know what they mean, probably something similar to whitey, or white ghost, or whiteman or whatever.

What I dislike is how the terms that mean foreigner "gaijin, waegukkin, wai guo ren" are used to mean whites.

In Asia, not all foreigners are whites.

Next, people will use these words to describe people who are not foreigners, sometimes when they themselves are foreigners. It's no secret that fobby Koreans in the USA refer to whites in the USA as foreigners when in actuality the fobby Koreans are foreigners.

Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train. It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.

In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul? We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!" So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!" They were like all scared and surprised. [/b][/quote]
I think it's a matter of history. Japan, Korea, and the other nations of Asian have thousands of years of history and contact between their cultures. Whites are a relatively new addition to the mix, and that's why they get designated as "foreigners".

As to the matter of Japanese and Koreans outside of their home countries using the word foreigner to describe Whites, I think it comes from the mentality that foreigner does not mean "person from another country" as much as it does "person from a country that is not Japan / Korea". Does that make sense? Japan or Korea is the eternal homeland, the place where all Japanese and Koreans come from, therefor anyone who doesn't have Japanese or Korean ancestry is a foreigner. [/b][/quote]
Dude, you know what it means, look at the characters it is written with. OTHER COUNTRY PERSON. [/b][/quote]
The "gai" in gaijin translates as outside, not other country. I remember reading somewhere that before Japan had contact with the west, a "gaijin" meant someone who was an outsider to a village or community, not a person from a foreign land.

BeTheReds

07-15-2003, 10:21 PM

Well I was talking more about gaikokujin where it is specified that that person is from a foreign country.. but gaijin now means the same thing whether or not koku is there. You might be justified in saying that gaijin is perfectly acceptable and gaikokujin is not, but I don't reallyknow the distinction between the two.

The dictionary definition of both is foreigner and that's why it bothers me.

AliBabaIncorporated

07-15-2003, 11:14 PM

gaijin I've only really seen referring to whites.

aside from its use in officialese, gaikokujin just seems to be used like a polite substitute for "sangokujin" or "illegal immigrants" or "dark skinned folks"

oh yeah and I've heard "lofan mui" used to refer to ABC girls. But I think we already went over that subject ... or did we?

YuheiCarreau

07-16-2003, 07:27 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 16 2003, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> gaijin I've only really seen referring to whites.

aside from its use in officialese, gaikokujin just seems to be used like a polite substitute for "sangokujin" or "illegal immigrants" or "dark skinned folks"

oh yeah and I've heard "lofan mui" used to refer to ABC girls. But I think we already went over that subject ... or did we? [/b][/quote]
As I said, I believe the reason for "gaijin" only being used with Whites is historical. When Perry 'opened' Japan, the reaction was one of intense nationalism, "Sonno Joi", that kind of thing; but it was really directed at Whites, not all non-Japanese, and certainly not the Asian countries which had had contact with Japan before it went into isolation.

I've heard people say gaikokujin without it being offensive, but they still tend to make generalizations considering that they're describing the entire rest of the world's population.

airborneranger

07-16-2003, 06:44 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 15 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train. It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.
In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul? We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!" So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!" They were like all scared and surprised. [/b][/quote]
It is great I thought you said it is ok to have a racial preference
but now you harrassed those Japanese for making their racial
preference known at you

BeTheReds

07-16-2003, 08:28 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (airborneranger @ Jul 17 2003, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BeTheReds @ Jul 15 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Or, one thing that really bothered me was when I was hanging out with a bunch of Koreans here in Japan the other day, and one of them starts talking about those damn foreigners who took up too much space on the train.  It just doesnt make sense to me cuz they are foreigners too.
In Korea, I sat on the train next to these two Japanese tourists, and one of them turns to the other and says, "why are there so many foreigners in Seoul?  We came here to get away from them, I didn't think that Korea had a foreigner problem too!"  So of course I snapped back at them, "okay you can leave first, foreigner!"  They were like all scared and surprised. [/b][/quote]
It is great I thought you said it is ok to have a racial preference
but now you harrassed those Japanese for making their racial
preference known at you [/b][/quote]
What the fuck are you talking about? I've noticed that you have been trying to oppose me at many different arguments. Can you please tell me why?

As for racial preferences I said I think it is okay for someone to have a racial preference as to who they personally want to date. Do you mind telling me what that has to do with a word that is a borderline racial slur?

Uncle Tat

07-18-2003, 09:24 AM

Who cares?

White people call all Asians Chinese or Japanese.

Do you think they give a shit about differentiating between Asians? :P

tvbdude

07-18-2003, 09:35 PM

hey, if they have racial slurs to describe us then we should have some for them.

Kierkegaard

07-19-2003, 09:27 PM

I live in Australia. Over here it is considered very rude (racist) to refer to any race of people by any slang term. It is proper to use the nationality of the person and to say something like: 'he is of Chinese descent'.

Australians may refer to Chinese, Korean's, Malays, Japenese etc as 'Asians', however they would be just as likely to refer to French, German's, English etc as 'Europeans'.

To refer to Australian Aboriginals as anything other then that is considered very racist. Some red necks refer to them as 'Aboes'. While this term is merely a shortened form of Aboriginal it is still considered disrespectful or racist. The same applies to the term 'Jap' (Japenese) or 'Leb' (Lebanese).

Some red necks also use the term 'darkies' to describe Aborignals. This is considered highly offensive. Its interesting that the term 'whitey' is not considered rude.

My point is this. The term 'gweilos' is literally translated 'ghost man'. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the chinese culture ghosts often have a corpse like appearance and are feared. I accept that the term is often used without condescention or insult. However I think it is a term which serves to alienate Europeans.

It is interesting to note that it is acceptable in most countries to refer to the English as 'poms' or 'pommies' (something to do with the idea that they don't wash enough) or the Germans as 'Kraughts'.

Maybe it all has something to do with whether or not the race has minority or victim status?

SunWuKong

07-19-2003, 11:22 PM

YuheiCarreau

07-20-2003, 12:50 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kierkegaard @ Jul 20 2003, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I live in Australia. Over here it is considered very rude (racist) to refer to any race of people by any slang term. It is proper to use the nationality of the person and to say something like: 'he is of Chinese descent'.

Australians may refer to Chinese, Korean's, Malays, Japenese etc as 'Asians', however they would be just as likely to refer to French, German's, English etc as 'Europeans'.

To refer to Australian Aboriginals as anything other then that is considered very racist. Some red necks refer to them as 'Aboes'. While this term is merely a shortened form of Aboriginal it is still considered disrespectful or racist. The same applies to the term 'Jap' (Japenese) or 'Leb' (Lebanese).

Some red necks also use the term 'darkies' to describe Aborignals. This is considered highly offensive. Its interesting that the term 'whitey' is not considered rude. [/b][/quote]
I think the reason why "whitey" is often tossed around without consequence is because for most of a White person's life, no one really makes an issue of his race or ethnicity (assuming he lives somewhere where Whites are a majority). Non-Whites have their race brought up all the time, and it gets annoying, even when the person doing it is being perfectly nice. There are no annoying, clumsily polite, Officially Inoffensive terms used to describe White people. They're always just people. You yourself say "Australians" in place of "White Australians" or "Australians of English / Welsh / European / whatever descent". If you were being perfectly logical about it, you'd call the Aboriginees "Australians" and everyone else by some annoying PC term.

But for the record, I don't know anyone who considers "whitey" to be acceptable in daily conversation; people know it's rude, but they also think it's a lot less offensive than most of the slurs you listed. IMO it's less offensive because, as I said, you don't have your race being brought up every time someone wants to go out for sushi. For most non-Whites, racial slurs are just the ugly side of this annoying thing that happens all the time anyway; for most Whites, being called "Whitey" or otherwise having their race pointed out to them is something of a novelty.

Kierkegaard

07-20-2003, 05:11 AM

Some interesting points gentlemen.  SunWuKung, thanks for the information about the origins of the word pom, I wasn't aware and had assumed my own meaning.

I'm 2nd generation Irish Australian and I'm about to be married to a girl who's parents are from Hong Kong.  They speak cantonese around the house.  I know for a fact I was initially referred to as a 'gweilo'.  I wasn't offended by this in the least but was interested in what the term actually meant.

YuheiCarreau, for the record I refer to all Australians as 'Australians' regardless of their culture or origins.  To be honest I find it unusual the way my fiance and her family refer to other european Australians as 'Australians' and themselves and other Asians as 'Asians' in spite of the fact that they are Australian citizens.

YuheiCarreau, I take your point that for caucasions their race is rarely made an issue of.

ChairmanMah

07-20-2003, 09:01 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 19 2003, 10:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kierkegaard @ Jul 20 2003, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> My point is this. The term 'gweilos' is literally translated 'ghost man'. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the chinese culture ghosts often have a corpse like appearance and are feared. I accept that the term is often used without condescention or insult. However I think it is a term which serves to alienate Europeans.

It is interesting to note that it is acceptable in most countries to refer to the English as 'poms' or 'pommies' (something to do with the idea that they don't wash enough) or the Germans as 'Kraughts'. [/b][/quote]
this is where i say that non-Cantonese speakers don't understand how Cantonese slangs are. a lot of their literal meanings have nothing to do with what they refer to. take pohk gai for example. its literal meaning is to trip on the street and fall. but what it really means, if you tell someone to pohk gai, is to tell them to die, or go to hell.

and i thought POM stands for "Prisoners Of her Majesty"? it used to refer to Australians, but now Australians actually use it to refer to the English. [/b][/quote]
yeah, i know what you mean. Chinese language composes of all sorts of existing words put together to form new terms.

For example deen lho means computer i believe.

But if it is translated, it means "electric brain".

RasFarengi

07-22-2003, 10:02 AM

I really disagree with a lot of what was said here. First I don't speak Cantonese, but I do speak Mandarin, and I have lived in Mainland China and Japan.

Gaijin is an abbreviation for gaikokujin. The Chinese characters mean literally =

outside country person

In Mandarin Chinese the same charcters are used for foreigner on official documents and it is pronounced Wai guo ren

Gaijin is not offensive per se, but many foreigners in Japan do not like always being referred to as "foreign...." makes you kind of feel uncomfortable, like your an alien. Personally I don't care.

As far as kokujin...meaning black. It depends on the person. Typically in Japan...gaijin is almost synonymous with who Japanese think are American...which is usually any white person until they know otherwise. I have also heard Japanese refer to me as Gaijin and other blacks, if they want to be specific they say kokujin.
This could vary in different areas of the country, but kokujin is not offensive, it justs means "black man." If they wanted to be racist they would say something like "korumba"..basically nigger. Other Asians in Japan, are typically called by their nationality, if people want to put them down, they call them sankokujin...(3rd country or 3rd world person), this is a reference to Asians from poor countries or former colonies, I have only heard old people use this world. Yes, many Japanese look down on other Asians, specifically mainland Chinese (Chugokujin) and ethnic Koreans born in Japan (Zainich Kankokujin). If Japanese know the person is foreign but don't know their nationality or their race doesn't stand out, they call them gaijin usually. With blacks...I think very few Asians can tell any difference in black people of various groups and know very few African countries, their are a lot of Africans that live in Tokyo, and pretend to be American...because they get more respect. Typically Japanese will differentiate Africans and African Americans if they know...they don't just say "kokujin."

I found in Asia, that most Asian countries that have contact with Americans assume white people are American, and "real Americans" are white. If they see another race of person they specifically describe that person to the best of their knowledge.

Back to China...Chinese people always say something with guai (gwai in Cantonese I guess).

This word comes from moguai (ghost) or guaizi(demon or ghost).

Often they call white people Lao wai and I have also been referred to as laowai...but I found it typically reserved for whites, and I think this is because white's are the most common foreigner that stand out...Asians generally don't stand out so much, blacks are unusual so they want to be specific when talking...they will usually say heiren but also heiguai basically black-devil.  I am always told this is not offensive and in Mainland China I have been called everything from dirty monkey to big gorilla, so yeah I guess black devil is the least offensive way... :cry:

I have also heard Chinese on the Mainland call Japanese people Japanese devils = ribenguaizi more than once, and for whatever reason they do like to use guai quite often. I do not think that most Chinese think this is offensive, but I think the root of it is.

It probably originated as a way to put down foreigners as culturally or racially inferior to huaren, people who have a Chinese culture...overtime it became so common people probably do not even think about the original meaning. Still doesn't mean it is not offensive. I am sure that most Chinese would not like it if white or black Americans called them "Yellow Devils...." that might not go over so well. [b]Basically I have never heard a Mandarin Speaking Chinese person refer to a foreigner as Wai Guo Ren (outside country person)...unless it was a very official occasion...they always say something devil/ghost =guai...hell even when I speak Mandarin I use it. :(

deez nuts

07-22-2003, 10:44 AM

you must've been hanging out with mostly cantonese or fukinese people speaking in mandarin.

amongst mandarin speaking people:

wai guo ren, lao wai, hei ren, bei ren etc etc is used a lot more often than <something> guai. from my experience, it's mostly said by cantonese people and when cantonese people speak in mandarin.

Back to China...Chinese people always say something with guai (gwai in Cantonese I guess).

Basically I have never heard a Mandarin Speaking Chinese person refer to a foreigner as Wai Guo Ren (outside country person)...unless it was a very official occasion...they always say something devil/ghost =guai

both are really gross generalizations and being a mandarin speaker with mandarin being my first language, i'm slightly offended. it's like me saying that the only way a black person can speak is through ebonics.

RasFarengi

07-22-2003, 10:53 AM

I didn't mean to offend, but most of my friends are from Taipei, Shanghai, and Beijing...I have a few Chinese friends from Hunan, but don't hang with them much.

When I lived in China...I lived in Shanghai, they commonly speak Shanghai hua, but at that time I was a student and lived on campus, so thier were Chinese from all over, it is possible some of these people were from Guandong or Fujian, but I have also heard Taiwanese (yeah I know they speak a type of Fujian dialect) and also people from Shanghai, when speaking Mandarin they use "guai..."  when describing foreigners.

The only time I have heard a Mandarin speaking Chinese person use "Waiguoren" is when they knew I could understand them, and I wasn't their friend, or when it was something official, like a class, or some government office.

Sorry, but I heard it too often for to believe it was all coincidence.  It might be true in Beijing people or the Mandarin speaking heart land in that area people do not talk like that, but I can tell you a lot of Chinese do.

deez nuts

07-22-2003, 11:01 AM

that's cuz when they speak in mandarin some of the cantonese/fukinese vernacular carries over i.e."guai."

sorry, i don't buy it.

i'm not denying that "guai" isn't used.

but, i'm denying your statement that:

...Chinese people always say something with guai (gwai in Cantonese I guess).

RasFarengi

07-22-2003, 11:58 AM

Okay...I agree with that, and I will rephrase it..."A lot of Chinese people always say something with "guai."

SunWuKong

07-22-2003, 12:04 PM

i always thought that Taiwanese people commonly use the term wai guo ren.

Napoleon Chynamite

07-22-2003, 12:08 PM

I don't think it's surprising that Chinese people overall (as well as many other Asian ethnicities within their own society) use certain terms that may not mean to be derogatory but in fact have derogatory roots.  People like to complain about the US and its handling of diversity and civil rights but really it is so much better than it is almost everywhere else, especially in relatively homogenous (or very homogenous) countries such as China, Korea, or Japan.  But yet, even in countries with a high immigrant or minority population such as Malaysia (got this from AliBaba) where the government may or should have been forced to face such issues regarding equal treatment etc., the US still fares much much better.

deez nuts

07-22-2003, 12:10 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 22 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i always thought that Taiwanese people commonly use the term wai guo ren. [/b][/quote]
yup.

and also wai sen ren, if you get what i mean.

Okay...I agree with that, and I will rephrase it..."A lot of Chinese people always say something with "guai."

sorry RasFarengi: in your experience a lot. but, in the general scheme of things not as much as you would think.

RasFarengi

07-22-2003, 12:19 PM

SunWunKung:

Yeah Taiwanese say Wai Guo Ren...and they also say a lot of other words from foreigners to (in Mandarin) I don't speak Taiwan dialect so I don't know what they might say in their dialect.  I am just going by what I hear from my friends and what I know of traveling in various regions in Asia.

Chasiubao:

We can agree to disagree.  Like I said...being that Mandarin is not the native language of most Chinese, but actually a secondary language, I can agree with you that "native Mandarin" speakers do not use these terms that often, but I know many CHinese from various areas that do...so...actually you may not be wrong, and I will leave it at that.

SunWuKong

07-22-2003, 12:39 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 22 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> We can agree to disagree. Like I said...being that Mandarin is not the native language of most Chinese, but actually a secondary language, I can agree with you that "native Mandarin" speakers do not use these terms that often, but I know many CHinese from various areas that do...so...actually you may not be wrong, and I will leave it at that. [/b][/quote]
actually, a lot of people in mainland China speak Mandarin better than they do their native dialect (if it happens to be not Mandarin). i know that Cantonese people probably speak better Cantonese than Mandarin, and that's probably also true for Shanghainese people with the Shanghai dialect. but i'm pretty sure that Fujianese people in China speak better Mandarin on the average than actually Minnanese.

but regardless of how much you think Mandarin is secondary language, it's used in everyday conversation, (maybe not so in Shanghai but even in Guangdong - excluding HK - it's used just as much as Cantonese) as well as in most forms of media in mainland China. in fact, my Fujianese roomate's godbrother and his girlfriend came from China to visit, and they've never been in the US before. they didn't speak Minnanese to each other. they spoke Mandarin to each other.

AliBabaIncorporated

07-22-2003, 04:16 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 22 2003, 02:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> actually, a lot of people in mainland China speak Mandarin better than they do their native dialect (if it happens to be not Mandarin). i know that Cantonese people probably speak better Cantonese than Mandarin, and that's probably also true for Shanghainese people with the Shanghai dialect. but i'm pretty sure that Fujianese people in China speak better Mandarin on the average than actually Minnanese. [/b][/quote]
hmm ... does the mainland have laws or broadcast guidelines limiting dialect programming to a certain number of hours a day or certain times during the night?Cuz Singapore had those (and there's always some jackass in Malaysia, unsurprisingly, from a Barisan Nasional associated party, who floats similar ideas), and it was their most effective tool at completely killing the dialects.

If mainland government don't have those laws, I wouldn't be surprised to see a growth in Shanghainese media. Those provincial bastards are so proud of their local language. But then, their girls are so hot :blush:

SunWuKong

07-22-2003, 04:28 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Jul 22 2003, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If mainland government don't have those laws, I wouldn't be surprised to see a growth in Shanghainese media. Those provincial bastards are so proud of their local language. But then, their girls are so hot :blush: [/b][/quote]
those girls will also take all your money!   :D

deez nuts

07-22-2003, 04:29 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Jul 22 2003, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Chasiubao:

We can agree to disagree. Like I said...being that Mandarin is not the native language of most Chinese, but actually a secondary language, I can agree with you that "native Mandarin" speakers do not use these terms that often, but I know many CHinese from various areas that do...so...actually you may not be wrong, and I will leave it at that. [/b][/quote]
guo yu is the universal language, baby.

what you talking about?

it brings us closer together like a 1-800-flowers commercial.

**wipes a tear from eye**

Napoleon Chynamite

07-22-2003, 04:36 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Jul 22 2003, 03:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> those girls will also take all your money! :D [/b][/quote]
Please let's not go there about the Shanghainese women...I don't wanna go into my bitchy whining mode again.  It hurts and I am bitter and sorry because of it, haha.

RasFarengi

07-22-2003, 05:10 PM

In China from what I know, they did institute some rule on speak "proper Mandarin on TV" because of some perversion of the language with English slang or slang from Taiwan and Hong Kong, but I do know they have programs in the dialects...now sure of time limits.

Shanghai women...oh boy...I will stay out of this too...let's just say...make sure your pocket is fat...

airborneranger

07-22-2003, 05:25 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Jul 22 2003, 03:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Please let's not go there about the Shanghainese women...I don't wanna go into my bitchy whining mode again. It hurts and I am bitter and sorry because of it, haha. [/b][/quote]
Too late
you have made 3000+ opinions

krome

07-25-2003, 10:47 AM

Lao Wai means 'old foreigner' in Mandarin.  Most of the foreigners who came in on the Silk Road were old.  Old is also a respectful term in Chinese.

But, I'm not sure if Lao Wai exclusively means whites or any non-asians or what exactly?  Cuz I got called that a lot in China myself..   :blink:

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 11:38 AM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Lao Wai means 'old foreigner' in Mandarin. Most of the foreigners who came in on the Silk Road were old. Old is also a respectful term in Chinese.

But, I'm not sure if Lao Wai exclusively means whites or any non-asians or what exactly? Cuz I got called that a lot in China myself.. :blink: [/b][/quote]
so you're saying that the term lao wai has to do with the Silk Road?   :confused:

krome

07-25-2003, 11:59 AM

Well, I'm saying that the influx of foreigners in China's history largely came in thru the Silk Road. 

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 12:04 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well, I'm saying that the influx of foreigners in China's history largely came in thru the Silk Road. [/b][/quote]
those were mostly merchants from the Middle East though.  Europeans traded for Chinese goods through them.  most Western contacts that China had were from China's eastern coast.

krome

07-25-2003, 12:09 PM

And Mid-Easterners aren't "foreigners?"  Many of them basically look like Euros too, except just a bit darker.. 

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 12:10 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And Mid-Easterners aren't "foreigners?" Many of them basically look like Euros too, except just a bit darker.. [/b][/quote]
no, i'm saying that Middle Easterners aren't usually called lao wai. 
but somebody correct me if i'm wrong on this.

krome

07-25-2003, 12:16 PM

Middle Easterners aren't usually called lao wai.
Well that was my question - are only whites called Lao Wai?

I doubt that, cuz I got called Lao Wai all the time in China. 

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 12:22 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well that was my question - are only whites called Lao Wai?

I doubt that, cuz I got called Lao Wai all the time in China. [/b][/quote]
and what race/ethnicity are you?

well, i just have my doubts that the term lao wai specifically had to do with the Silk Road.

krome

07-25-2003, 12:26 PM

Han zhu (Hua Qiao)

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 12:31 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 03:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Han zhu (Hua Qiao) [/b][/quote]
dude, they called you lao wai because you're (probably) Westernised.  it had nothing to do with your race.  i've been called an array of those names, too (American boy, gwai jai, etc etc), but always jokingly by friends or endearingly by girls (which i actually like).

krome

07-25-2003, 12:46 PM

Well, it was in a serious way by the street vendors and others and such...

But, if what you're saying is true - then it would basically apply to ANY foreigner, not just white.  And possibly even Asian?  Altho, they typically just call those "hua qiao" or "ya zho ren."

SunWuKong

07-25-2003, 01:00 PM

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (krome @ Jul 25 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well, it was in a serious way by the street vendors and others and such...

But, if what you're saying is true - then it would basically apply to ANY foreigner, not just white. And possibly even Asian? Altho, they typically just call those "hua qiao" or "ya zho ren." [/b][/quote]
the idea of political correctness is pretty much non-existent in mainland China.  i'm not surprised you were called that by street vendors.  although i doubt they meant any insult - i mean, they were trying to get your business...  but i was not there, so i'm only speculating.

at any rate, i've only heard white people referred to as wai guo ren or lao wai, etc etc  the only reason some people called hua qiao people by these terms is as a reference to them being Westernised like white people - an indication of their ways being like white people.

(note:  i think similar terms have been used to refer to Japanese people during WW2)