duke lacrosse team members falsely accused of gangraping woman

[power puff girl]

this story just makes me really angry.

you've got a bunch of white, overpriliged jocks at a alchol fueled party grabbed a young, black mother into a bathroom where they proceeded to beat her, choke her, rape her, and then rob her. all medical evidence is consistent with her claims that she was raped, and the prosecutors believe that a rape did take place. and, another witness has stepped up to tell the police that the lacrosse team was shouting at racial slurs at her and the victim, calling them the n word.

if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

if we were talking about a poor man raping a woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

but, because we are talking about privleged, white athletes who attented some of the best prep schools, these men are still free as they go to bars to drink shots and chant 'duke lacrosse' at the same time that protestors are marching against violence against women.

and, of course, none of the jocks don't want to come out and tell the police what happened. instead, all we're getting is a wall of silence cause it would be uncool to rat out on your teamate but its somehow okay to rape a woman.

[yoMAMA]

if it's true, then those dumbass jocks should get themselves into a cell get butt fucked.

then they will know how good rape is.

[Filiprish]

I've been following the news on this pretty closely, the story is fast-going international!
Below are links c/o eDuke News Service (http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/subscribe/eduke.html) (eduke@duke.edu).

A TROUBLED SPRING AT DUKE
Newsweek, April 10 issue -- A few -- but only a few -- facts are clear
and
uncontested in the controversy over a Duke lacrosse-team party.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12115147/site/newsweek/

--Also, (Raleigh) News & Observer: Any Lacrosse Charges 10 Days Away
http://www.newsobserver.com/680/story/424128.html

ESPN: Turbulent Times for Duke and Durham (three videos)
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/columns/story?id=2392159

ABC News: Duke Scandal Spotlights Race, Class Tension (AP story also
appeared in the San Francisco Chronicle and more than 400 other news
outlets.)
http://tinyurl.com/m5z3s

(London) The Guardian: Rape Case Highlights South's Abiding Divide
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1745589,00.html

New York Times: Few Surprised By Woes of Duke Team
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/01/sports/othersports/01lacrosse.html

CBS News: Duke Rape Scandal Stokes Racial Woes
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/03/earlyshow/main1462435.shtml

(Durham) Herald-Sun: Ex-Duke Chapel Dean Saddened by Lacrosse Team
Allegations
http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-719869.html

Herald-Sun: Editorial -- Thoughts on Race and Lacrosse
http://www.herald-sun.com/opinion/hsedits/56-719287.html

Duke News: Duke Suspends Men's Lacrosse Games Pending Clearer Resolution of
Legal Situation (special website with background information
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/mmedia/features/lacrosse_incident

More links c/o eDuke News Service (eduke@duke.edu).

Police warn students about suspicious gang activity off East Campus
http://www.dukechronicle.com/news/2006/03/31/News/Police.Warn.Students.About.Suspicious.Gang.Activit y.Off.East.Campus-1776022.shtml&mkey=2159597

Captains' lawyers speak out
http://www.dukechronicle.com/news/2006/03/31/News/Captains.Lawyers.Speak.Out-1775530.shtml

Students threatened, assaulted off campus
http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/04/03/News/Students.Threatened.Assaulted.Off.Campus-1777278.shtml&mkey=2159597

[power puff girl]

here's the story that I'm pasting about them their boorish behavior, as if they're proud of what they did:

"Last Saturday, as protests were being held around campus, including a candlelight vigil at the captains' house, Jill Hopman said she saw about 20 team members at Charlie's. Hopman, who graduated from Duke last year and is a law student at the University of North Carolina, said the players were drinking and breaking into chants of "Duke lacrosse." She said she was nauseated by the display and wrote an opinion piece for The Chronicle.

"It was just sitting there knowing that a candlelight vigil was held at their house, while they are slamming down the shots on the bar," Hopman said Friday.

if it's true, then those dumbass jocks should get themselves into a cell get butt fucked.

then they will know how good rape is.

the doctors examined her, and their conclusion was that she had been raped.

according to the victim, she was assaulted anally, vaginally, and orally.

here's the police report about what happened:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke4.html

[Arex]

if it's true, then those dumbass jocks should get themselves into a cell get butt fucked.

then they will know how good rape is.Agreed. And hopefully it will be at the hands of an African American cell mate. That would be poetic justice.

[TB4000]

Ridiculous. Of course it's gonna be downplayed if they're suburban and can afford lawyers. Trust me, even with the pull I would have being educated and in the corporate world, I'd still get the book thrown at me if someone accused me of that.

If it does come down to them being guilty, there's no excuse whatsoever for it. They need punishment.

[yoMAMA]

Agreed. And hopefully it will be at the hands of an African American cell mate. That would be poetic justice.

LOL

"OZ!"

[deez nuts]

wow the whole lacrosse team?

[yoMAMA]

wow the whole lacrosse team?

nope.

there's a black player, and he was not accused.

Ridiculous. Of course it's gonna be downplayed if they're suburban and can afford lawyers. Trust me, even with the pull I would have being educated and in the corporate world, I'd still get the book thrown at me if someone accused me of that.

If it does come down to them being guilty, there's no excuse whatsoever for it. They need punishment.

also i'm not surprised if the lacrosse players are racist.

I was called a [racial slur] by a lacrosse player in college-not a joking sort, but vicious hate, and the sad part is he's asian.

[Faithless]

There's supposedly an email from one of the players, and they're deciding if it was a joke, but it claims the player wanted more women to screw and beat up (or something like that).

Sick.

[moJo]

There's supposedly an email from one of the players, and they're deciding if it was a joke, but it claims the player wanted more women to screw and beat up (or something like that).

Sick.
they wanted to bring in more strippers, kill them, and skin them.

what a funny joke. right.

[snailpoo]

if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

if we were talking about a poor man raping a woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

but, because we are talking about privleged, white athletes who attented some of the best prep schools, these men are still free as they go to bars to drink shots and chant 'duke lacrosse' at the same time that protestors are marching against violence against women.

erm.

I've been following this too.

Can we at least wait until the DNA results get back before we rush to judgment?

It's very odd that on THIS progressive board, we get all huffy and puffy when a minority is accused and assumed guilty, but we automatically ASSUME the lacrosse TEAM (only 3 of them allegedly did it) is guilty BEFORE the DNA results are back.


And do you know what is false about your statement? Do you remember the black bouncer who was accused of raping and brutally murdering the college girl in New York City a couple months ago? The police didn't arrest him until DNA tests came back, so NO, a black man or a poor man accused of raping a woman would't be automatically sitting in prison.

Seriously, pretend your the prosecutor. Without the DNA, you don't even know which three of the TEAM to arrest.:rolleyes:

[Filiprish]

More links from eDuke News Service. These are all I can post for now. The latest ones are at the bottom.

Duke Chronicle: Media descend on Duke - News
http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/31/News/Media.Descend.On.Duke-1775531.shtml?norewrite200604060413&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

Duke Chronicle: Sex and race: - Columns
http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/31/Columns/Sex-And.Race-1775544.shtml?norewrite200604060413&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

Duke Chronicle: Breaking the silence - Columns
http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/31/Columns/Breaking.The.Silence-1775543.shtml?norewrite200604060413&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

Duke Chronicle: (It's time to) get mad - Columns
http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2006/03/31/Columns/its-Time.To.Get.Mad-1775545.shtml?norewrite200604060413&sourcedomain=www.dukechronicle.com

DNA RESULTS EXPECTED SOON IN DUKE LACROSSE CASE
The Charlotte Observer, April 4 -- The prosecutor in the reported rape case involving Duke's lacrosse team said team members will be given the results of their DNA tests when the results come back as early as next week, a requirement under state law.
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/14257167.htm

--Also, New York Times: Three Miles and a World Away, A Vigil for the Accuser
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/04/sports/othersports/04duke.html

MSNBC: Students Rally for Alleged Duke Rape Victim (with video from Abrams Report; AP story also appeared in The Chicago Tribune and more than 150
other news outlets.)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12141284/

(India) The Financial Express, Press Trust of India: Alleged
Stereotype-Rape by U.S. Students
http://tinyurl.com/mgyw5

News & Observer: NCCU Students Back a Classmate
http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/425079.html

Herald-Sun: Duke Senior Reports Assault
http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-720332.html

Duke Chronicle: Brodhead Discusses Lax Scandal With ICC, GPSC
http://tinyurl.com/rbhqr

News & Observer: Commentary -- Ugly Past Echoes in Duke Case (by Duke
visiting professor Timothy B. Tyson)
http://www.newsobserver.com/690/story/424299.html

DUKE LACROSSE COACH RESIGNS
News & Observer, April 5 -- Duke president Richard Brodhead canceled the
men's lacrosse team's season and accepted the resignation of its coach
today. The announcement came after Durham County authorities released a
previously sealed warrant, the contents of which Brodhead called "sickening and repulsive." http://www.newsobserver.com/100/story/425520.html

--Also, News & Observer: Duke Plans to Address Students' Behavior
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/425443.html

--Also, New York Times: Amid Scrutiny at Duke, Details Emerge of '05 Assault
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/sports/othersports/05duke.html

News & Observer: Authorities Reveal E-mail Message
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/425493.html

Herald-Sun: Lacrosse DNA Analysis Ongoing
http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-720744.html

CNN’s Paula Zahn Now: Duke University Divided
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/04/pzn.01.html

CBS Sportsline, AP: Brand -- Behavior at Duke Party 'Inappropriate at Best'
http://cbs.sportsline.com/general/story/9357946/rss

St. Petersburg (Fla.) Times: Separating Truth, Consequences
http://tinyurl.com/p2hck

News & Observer: Father -- Injuries Were Telling
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/425344.html

Charlotte Observer: NAACP Exec -- Duke Should Investigate
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/14265965.htm

News & Observer: Duke, Durham in Spotlight
http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/425346.html

(Greensboro) WFMY-TV Duke Women’s Lacrosse Team Still Going Strong
http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/local_state/article.aspx?storyid=60651

Herald-Sun: Editorial -- NCCU Students Should Stay Cool
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/hsedits/56-720645.html

Herald-Sun: Column -- Lacrosse Story Shakes Many Societal Fault Lines
http://www.heraldsun.com/opinion/columnists/ashley/

Duke Cancels Men's Lacrosse Games (special website with background information)
http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/mmedia/features/lacrosse_incident/

[haplesshobo]

There's supposedly an email from one of the players, and they're deciding if it was a joke, but it claims the player wanted more women to screw and beat up (or something like that).

Sick.

And, what makes it even worse is that the email was sent only about half an hour after the alleged rape.

If the allegations are true, then its horrible and the rapists should be punished. But, I don't understand why the lacrosse coach needed to resign. I mean the alleged rape took place after hours, and how responsible should the coach be for that? It doesn't seem like a program out of control. The lacrosse team has a history, but mostly standard college stuff like underage drinking.

[Faithless]

they wanted to bring in more strippers, kill them, and skin them.

what a funny joke. right.
Something tells me that they won't be having the last laugh.

.
And, what makes it even worse is that the email was sent only about half an hour after the alleged rape.

If the allegations are true, then its horrible and the rapists should be punished. But, I don't understand why the lacrosse coach needed to resign. I mean the alleged rape took place after hours, and how responsible should the coach be for that? It doesn't seem like a program out of control. The lacrosse team has a history, but mostly standard college stuff like underage drinking.
Wasn't there a similar story and the coach was serving up the indecency. I say, "stay tuned."

[Dei Wong]

erm.

I've been following this too.

Can we at least wait until the DNA results get back before we rush to judgment?

It's very odd that on THIS progressive board, we get all huffy and puffy when a minority is accused and assumed guilty, but we automatically ASSUME the lacrosse TEAM (only 3 of them allegedly did it) is guilty BEFORE the DNA results are back.


And do you know what is false about your statement? Do you remember the black bouncer who was accused of raping and brutally murdering the college girl in New York City a couple months ago? The police didn't arrest him until DNA tests came back, so NO, a black man or a poor man accused of raping a woman would't be automatically sitting in prison.

Seriously, pretend your the prosecutor. Without the DNA, you don't even know which three of the TEAM to arrest.:rolleyes:

Are you saying that what everyone is saying never happens? A Minority getting harsher or unfair treatment just never happens. If your saying everyone is maybe a little to quick to condemn all of the team before the DNA evidence is known then maybe your right. But you almost make it sound like its a Twilight Zone moment when a Minority is given uneven treatment in the court or society.

[snailpoo]

Are you saying that what everyone is saying never happens? A Minority getting harsher or unfair treatment just never happens. If your saying everyone is maybe a little to quick to condemn all of the team before the DNA evidence is known then maybe your right. But you almost make it sound like its a Twilight Zone moment when a Minority is given uneven treatment in the court or society.
I'm not saying that it never happens --it does way too often.

However, I am saying that it is a little bit hypocritical that we would condemn those who would rush to judgement when a minority is accused... and then rush to judgement ourselves when it's a bunch of white guys.


Making such statements as "duke lacrosse team gangrapes a black woman" and "if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison" is taking two steps backwards.

Both statements are categorically untrue: 1. the TEAM did not rape the woman --EVEN if you believe ONE SIDE of the story, only THREE of them are accused of rape; 2. this is, of course, severely jumping the gun --you don't even have DNA evidence to know which three raped the woman, if these three are even members of the team; and 3. there are MANY, MANY instances where black men accused of raping a white women are NOT arrested until, oh, say, sufficient evidence like DNA results is gathered.

Seriously, when you say, "if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison", you are protesting the injustice that someone is automatically assumed guilty. When you turn around and say "duke lacrosse team gangrapes a black woman," you are guilty of perpetrating the SAME injustice.

Reread that first post. Does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence? AND, does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence for the 40 someodd members other than the three accused? Forget about a jury finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, this post assumes guilt without the possibility of innocence while DA CAN'T EVEN FILE CHARGES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHO TO CHARGE. How is that for presumption of innocence? That post is AUTOMATICALLY WRONG for at least the MAJORITY of the people it ASSUMES guilty, if not WRONG COMPLETELY.

At least wait until 1. the DNA results come back, and 2. ACTUAL CHARGES ARE FILED, before rushing to judgement, because, apparently, waiting for a verdict is too much to ask.:rolleyes:



Edited to add: and when I say "you," I don't mean you personally; I mean the general sentiment that assumes guilt.

[Dei Wong]

I'm not saying that it never happens --it does way too often.

However, I am saying that it is a little bit hypocritical that we would condemn those who would rush to judgement when a minority is accused... and then rush to judgement ourselves when it's a bunch of white guys.


Making such statements as "duke lacrosse team gangrapes a black woman" and "if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison" is taking two steps backwards.

Both statements are categorically untrue: 1. the TEAM did not rape the woman --EVEN if you believe ONE SIDE of the story, only THREE of them are accused of rape; 2. this is, of course, severely jumping the gun --you don't even have DNA evidence to know which three raped the woman, if these three are even members of the team; and 3. there are MANY, MANY instances where black men accused of raping a white women are NOT arrested until, oh, say, sufficient evidence like DNA results is gathered.

Seriously, when you say, "if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison", you are protesting the injustice that someone is automatically assumed guilty. When you turn around and say "duke lacrosse team gangrapes a black woman," you are guilty of perpetrating the SAME injustice.

Reread that first post. Does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence? AND, does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence for the 40 someodd members other than the three accused? Forget about a jury finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, this post assumes guilt without the possibility of innocence while DA CAN'T EVEN FILE CHARGES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHO TO CHARGE. How is that for presumption of innocence? That post is AUTOMATICALLY WRONG for at least the MAJORITY of the people it ASSUMES guilty, if not WRONG COMPLETELY.

At least wait until 1. the DNA results come back, and 2. ACTUAL CHARGES ARE FILED, before rushing to judgement, because, apparently, waiting for a verdict is too much to ask.:rolleyes:



Edited to add: and when I say "you," I don't mean you personally; I mean the general sentiment that assumes guilt.

O. K. good point :cool: I just wanted to be clear on your stance.

[yoMAMA]

But, I don't understand why the lacrosse coach needed to resign. I mean the alleged rape took place after hours, and how responsible should the coach be for that? It doesn't seem like a program out of control. The lacrosse team has a history, but mostly standard college stuff like underage drinking.

as a coach he's responsible for team discipline.

[Craig]

And do you know what is false about your statement? Do you remember the black bouncer who was accused of raping and brutally murdering the college girl in New York City a couple months ago? The police didn't arrest him until DNA tests came back, so NO, a black man or a poor man accused of raping a woman would't be automatically sitting in prison.In many places in the USA *ahem California*, the person would be sitting in jail until proven innocent.

[snailpoo]

In many places in the USA *ahem California*, the person would be sitting in jail until proven innocent.
Really?

Find me an instance in California where someone was held longer than 24 hours (or however long the period is out there) but not charged... and the police department wasn't then sued for violation of civil rights.

There's a HUGE difference in the police department's ability to hold someone before and after they are charged with a crime.

[Craig]

Really?

Find me an instance in California where someone was held longer than 24 hours (or however long the period is out there) but not charged... and the police department wasn't then sued for violation of civil rights.

There's a HUGE difference in the police department's ability to hold someone before and after they are charged with a crime.It's 72 hours over here. However, if the person is not charged (i.e., they don't plead guilty), they get the option of going to trial which will take several weeks (if not longer). During this time they have to wait in jail if they don't post bail. This would definitely point to poor people being just accused sitting in jail.

[snailpoo]

It's 72 hours over here. However, if the person is not charged (i.e., they don't plead guilty), they get the option of going to trial which will take several weeks (if not longer). During this time they have to wait in jail if they don't post bail. This would definitely point to poor people being just accused sitting in jail.
Are you sure about that "not?" As in... how can they have the ability to plead guilty if they NOT charged?


You've confused two very different situations. Again, there are plenty of people in prison awaiting trial AFTER charges have been filed. In THIS INSTANCE, there is an ASSUMPTION of guilt by some hypocrites BEFORE charges have been filed.

If this happens in California all the time, then find me instances where this ("if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison") would be true. Find me cases where black men accused of raping white women were jailed for two weeks PRIOR to charges being filed.



Simple, simple proof of your mix-up? Gitmo. One of the causes for concern about the prisoners of war/terrorists (depending on which side you listen to) is that they have been held longer than the 24/72 hour grace period WITHOUT charges, which is an extraordinary occurrence in the United States.

So, again, are you sure about that "not?" Or maybe you can explain to me how due process, habeas corpus, burden of proof, grand juries, and incitements in general work in California.




Everyone, seriously, is it too much to ask to wait until the DNA results come back before jumping to conclusions as to whether or not whichever three are guilty?

[haplesshobo]

Everyone, seriously, is it too much to ask to wait until the DNA results come back before jumping to conclusions as to whether or not whichever three are guilty?

Dude, the prosecutor is going to charge them irregardless of any DNA evidence. He's already more or less implied that, with statements about how the accused could have worn condoms and thus not leave any DNA.
All the victim has to do is point them out from the team's lineup photo, and that would probably be enough for this prosecutor. The prosecutor is running for re-election, and going after out-of-state, preppies isn't going to hurt his campaign.

[proazn]

hey now, let's not all jump into conclusions. women can lie just as well as men.... somehow, i just can't believe the 'whole' lacrosse team raping a girl. i bet she got paid for a bukkake.

[hooligan]

This sucks and I hope the people be held responsible for the crime. As for Duke, Duke sucks.

[snailpoo]

Dude, the prosecutor is going to charge them irregardless of any DNA evidence. He's already more or less implied that, with statements about how the accused could have worn condoms and thus not leave any DNA.
All the victim has to do is point them out from the team's lineup photo, and that would probably be enough for this prosecutor. The prosecutor is running for re-election, and going after out-of-state, preppies isn't going to hurt his campaign.

Wait. Doesn't your second paragraph destroy your first paragraph and end up arguing for the guys' innocence?

If you say that there are political reasons why the DA is interested in this case, then your statement about the DA being ready to prosecute regardless of DNA becomes... non-indicitive of guilt or innocence.

[proazn]

This sucks and I hope the people be held responsible for the crime. As for Duke, Duke sucks.


Hold on a second. The crime here could just be a lie. remember, she's a stripper.... you think those strippers never lie?


p.s. the DNA testings came back..... no DNA evidence of a rape.

[deez nuts]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060411/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse_investigation;_ylt=Aj5Y6SMbB8TXa0JlC nilyNYLMxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

it's looking iffier and iffier.

i was skeptical about the woman's allegation from the start. a townie student/stripper with a bunch of white duke guys. she probably saw dollar signs. but, hey i hope the prosecution proves me wrong.

[Martino]

Hold on a second. The crime here could just be a lie. remember, she's a stripper.... you think those strippers never lie?

Strippers, politicians, policeman ... is there a profession where people are garanteed to always tell the truth?

it's looking iffier and iffier.

i was skeptical about the woman's allegation from the start. a townie student/stripper with a bunch of white duke guys. she probably saw dollar signs. but, hey i hope the prosecution proves me wrong.

All of which reinforces snailpoo's posts. Let an actual investigation be conducted, evidence garnered, wait for the facts, don't rush to judge. And so on.

[snailpoo]

Except that it's supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty, " as in, people are presumed innocent until a jury says otherwise. Naturally, it is human nature for people to jump the gun when there are mounds of evidence to the contrary (OJ, McVeigh, ...), but there is a distinct difference between presuming innocence and making the prosecution prove guilt and between automatically assuming guilt without sufficient evidence. Innocence does not carry a burden of proof and is the default status.

On Monday, attorneys representing members of the lacrosse team said DNA from the 46 players tested did not match evidence collected from the woman who says she was raped.

"No DNA from any young man tested was found anywhere on or about this woman,'' defense attorney Wade Smith said Monday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12268253/from/RS.1/

The article concludes:

Loyola Law School professor Stan Goldman agreed that DNA evidence is not necessary to win a conviction but said Nifong would have a lot to overcome without it.

"In this day and age, it's the 'CSI' effect,'' he said, referring to the popular "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation'' series on TV. "If you don't find the evidence, then maybe it's not the guy. In 'CSI,' they always find the evidence.''

Defense attorney Bill Thomas said authorities found none of the alleged victim's DNA in the bathroom where she told police she was attacked.

"Our experts tell us that being gang-raped by three men would leave DNA material to be examined,'' Thomas said.

Goldman said the failure to find any matching DNA evidence, is "not the end of the case, but it's kind of damning to the prosecution case.''

"Isn't the absence of DNA evidence, given the way the victim has described the crime, in and of itself almost enough to raise a reasonable doubt?'' Goldman asked. "That's all the defense has to do.''


The problem for me is the first quote. If the DNA found on the victim doesn't match the DNA of the suspects, that's reasonable doubt. Maybe it's a stretch to say that she's only pretending to be raped, but the lack of a match goes a long way to say that she wasn't raped by members of the lacrosse team.



Though I am waiting for the next twist. This is like a drawn out version of Law and Order.

[Martino]

Except that it's supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty, " as in, people are presumed innocent until a jury says otherwise.

Of course, the Golden Thread . . .

Though I am waiting for the next twist. This is like a drawn out version of Law and Order.

Law and Order? Is that like Rumpole of the Bailey?

[Chester]

So when did the "allegedly" in the title finally get added? And why is it still in parentheses?

[Arex]

The problem for me is the first quote. If the DNA found on the victim doesn't match the DNA of the suspects, that's reasonable doubt. Maybe it's a stretch to say that she's only pretending to be raped, but the lack of a match goes a long way to say that she wasn't raped by members of the lacrosse team.From the sound bites I've been hearing on the news, they're not saying the DNA found on the victim doesn't match the suspects' DNA (suggesting that someone else's DNA was found on her body, i.e., another perpetrator), they're simply saying the suspects' DNA wasn't found anywhere on the victim.

Some (e.g., Mark Geragos on Larry King) have argued, however, that when you've got three people committing sexual assault, it's highly unlikely that none of the suspects' DNA would be found on the victim's body. That would clearly be reasonable doubt. On the other hand, I thought I heard the prosecutor saying this morning that in 70-80% of sexual assault/rape cases, no DNA is found. That would obviously minimize the exculpatory effect of the lack of DNA evidence here.

It will be interesting to see whether the prosecutor goes ahead with the charges here. Sounds like he intends to, but we'll see.

[thaite]

So when did the "allegedly" in the title finally get added? And why is it still in parentheses?

Sorry. I'll try to run all my modding decisions by you in the future.

[pikachupacabra]

I'm also a little short on facts, but I read that they found no actual evidence of any sex taking place? No DNA that matched the suspects anywhere...including fingernails, even though the victim said she broke off fingernails while fighting her assailants...

I'm waiting to see how this plays out. At this point I think i'm leaning towards the duke players side in terms of actual rape taking place...morons, yes, but rapists...that remains to be seen. There are claims of dated photographs showing the victim being injured before she even entered the house

[snailpoo]

Law and Order? Is that like Rumpole of the Bailey?
Law and Order is a TV show that likes to put in random plot twists. What's Rumpole?


From the sound bites I've been hearing on the news, they're not saying the DNA found on the victim doesn't match the suspects' DNA (suggesting that someone else's DNA was found on her body, i.e., another perpetrator), they're simply saying the suspects' DNA wasn't found anywhere on the victim.

Some (e.g., Mark Geragos on Larry King) have argued, however, that when you've got three people committing sexual assault, it's highly unlikely that none of the suspects' DNA would be found on the victim's body. That would clearly be reasonable doubt. On the other hand, I thought I heard the prosecutor saying this morning that in 70-80% of sexual assault/rape cases, no DNA is found. That would obviously minimize the exculpatory effect of the lack of DNA evidence here.

It will be interesting to see whether the prosecutor goes ahead with the charges here. Sounds like he intends to, but we'll see.

Depending which media source you listen to, some say simply that the DNA was not found, while other say that the DNA does not match those recovered.

It seems odd to me that DNA samples would be gathered at all if there was no base samples recovered from the victim to be compared with. Additionally, from what some media reports of her account, she says that she fought and clawed her attackers to the point where she broke her nails... meaning that there should be skin if not blood of her attackers underneath her nails.

[proazn]

I hope this serves a good lesson to Power Puff Girl for overreacting and assuming the worse in men. To be angry that a fellow female was raped by these 'terrible' men was obviously a reaction caused by the hatred of men. If anything, Power Puff Girl should be angry at the stripper for telling a lie and trying to take advantage of boys with rich parents. This will make black strippers everywhere look bad.
i'm not hiring those black strippers from now on.

[Arex]

In power puff girl's defense, we don't know that the stripper was necessarily lying either.

[Chester]

Sorry. I'll try to run all my modding decisions by you in the future.No need for that, though I could do without the sarcastic insinuation that I was criticizing you.

It was a simple question and wasn't even directed necessarily to you.

I was simply asking because I was wondering who added the "allegedly", when it was added, why it was added, and so forth. And I didn't think it was phrased in a way that was hostile.

[snailpoo]

In power puff girl's defense, we don't know that the stripper was necessarily lying either.
Gah, I didn't mean to be nearly as harsh with power puff as I sounded.

[Arex]

^ I was referring to proazn's post.

[Martino]

Law and Order is a TV show that likes to put in random plot twists. What's Rumpole?

Just joshing ya, everyone everywhere watches Law and Order. One of the best shows on the planet.

Rumpole is a fictional QC in a series of dry witty books and television serials. If you genetically spliced Jerry Orbach with a raisin, you might end up with someone who looks like Rumpole (played by the late Leo McKern).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/2146615.stm

[mizhi]

I don't think it's wise, or helpful, to try and psycho-analyze powerpuff girl's attitudes toward men. To be honest, my gut reaction, before more evidence started coming to light, was "Oh great, fuckin' jocks raped another girl." Fair? Not in the least. But it was there. I'm definitely projecting when I say that I think most Americans, in the absence of evidence, tend to believe the alleged victim more than the accused.

Just joshing ya, everyone everywhere watches Law and Order. One of the best shows on the planet.

Which derivative? Original, SVU, CI, TBJ, or Extra Crispy?
:smile:

[lethal]

It seems odd to me that DNA samples would be gathered at all if there was no base samples recovered from the victim to be compared with. Additionally, from what some media reports of her account, she says that she fought and clawed her attackers to the point where she broke her nails... meaning that there should be skin if not blood of her attackers underneath her nails.

I've got to think that in order to just get the warrant to get the DNA samples, there had to be something found to implicate that something happened.

Personally, I think the DNA dragnet is pretty iffy constitutionally, so to get a judge to sign off on it, there had to be something besides the word of the victim.

[Faithless]

Although the DNA tests would have been nice, it sounds like it doesn't have to be a factor, necessarily.

[Martino]

Which derivative? Original, SVU, CI, TBJ, or Extra Crispy?
:smile:

Any ep with Detective Logan ....

So where are we on the allegation?

[deez nuts]

I hope this serves a good lesson to Power Puff Girl for overreacting and assuming the worse in men. To be angry that a fellow female was raped by these 'terrible' men was obviously a reaction caused by the hatred of men. If anything, Power Puff Girl should be angry at the stripper for telling a lie and trying to take advantage of boys with rich parents. This will make black strippers everywhere look bad.
i'm not hiring those black strippers from now on.


please try to be more understanding. maybe power puff girl was a rape victim. some of the most hardcore feminists have usually been mistreated by men to varying degrees from cheating boyfriends to being rape victims.

[snbatman]

please try to be more understanding. maybe power puff girl was a rape victim. some of the most hardcore feminists have usually been mistreated by men to varying degrees from cheating boyfriends to being rape victims.

There is a pretty wide gap between a cheating boyfriend and rape.

Heck, it's not like women don't cheat on men too.

[thaite]

Let's keep on topic.

[snailpoo]

Insert next two twists here:

Security guard, the first person to see the accuser afterwards, says some interesting things.

TWO Duke players arrested.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12366767/from/RS.3/


Doink. Doink.

[Chad]

hey one of the suspects has a previous assault charge, something that probably should have been considered a hate crime.

[LaiSteve66]

D.A. plans to charge 3rd Duke lacrosse player

Seligmann, Finnerty accused of raping, kidnapping stripper hired for party

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/060418/n_mott_dukearrests_060418.300w.jpg

DURHAM, N.C. - Two Duke University lacrosse players were arrested on rape charges Tuesday in a scandal that has rocked one of America’s elite campuses and raised explosive questions of race, class and the privileged status of college athletes.

The two players — both graduates of Northern prep schools — were promptly booked and released on bail. District Attorney Mike Nifong said a third player could also be arrested but has yet to be firmly identified.

“It is important that we not only bring the assailants to justice, but also that we lift the cloud of suspicion from those team members who were not involved in the assault,” Nifong said.

Lawyers for the two men bitterly assailed the district attorney for bringing the charges. Other attorneys for Duke’s lacrosse players said the two were not even present at the time the rape is alleged to have occurred.

Reade Seligmann, 20, of Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, N.Y., are accused of attacking a stripper at a team party at an off-campus house on the night of March 13. They were charged with first-degree rape, sexual offense and kidnapping and were released on $400,000 bail each.

The district attorney would not say what evidence led to the charges. But Seligmann’s attorney, Kirk Osborn, said: “Apparently it was a photographic identification. And we all know how reliable that is.”

Seligmann is “absolutely innocent,” Osborn said. “He’s doing great.” Finnerty’s attorney, Bill Cotter, said: “The next jury will hear the entire story, which includes our evidence, and we’re confident that these young men will be found to be innocent.”

The case has raised racial tensions and heightened the long-standing town-vs.-gown antagonism between Duke students and middle class, racially mixed Durham. The accuser is black, and all but one of the 47 lacrosse team members are white.

Well before the scandal, the nationally ranked team had a reputation for a swaggering sense of entitlement and boorish frat-boy behavior that included public intoxication and public urination. After the scandal broke, the university announced an investigation into whether it put up with such behavior for too long.

The case has led to the resignation of the coach and the cancellation of the rest of the season.

“Many lives have been touched by this case,” said Duke President Richard Brodhead in a statement. “It has brought pain and suffering to all involved, and it deeply challenges our ability to balance judgment with compassion. As the legal process unfolds, we must hope that it brings a speedy resolution and that the truth of the events is fully clarified.”

The university would not comment specifically on any disciplinary action taken against the two men but said it is Duke practice to suspend students charged with a felony.

Both players are products of wealthy New York City suburbs and all-male Roman Catholic prep schools. Finnerty attended Long Island’s Chaminade High School, where 99 percent of the students go on to college. Seligmann went to the exclusive Delbarton School, a lacrosse powerhouse in Morristown, N.J.

“It is our hope and our conviction that the full truth of all that happened that night will vindicate Reade of these charges,” Delbarton’s headmaster, the Rev. Luke L. Travers, said in a statement.

Neither Seligmann and Finnerty was among the Duke team members arrested in recent years for such offenses as underage drinking and public urination.

Finnerty, however, was charged in Washington with assault after a man told police in November that Finnerty and two friends punched him and called him “gay and other derogatory names.” Finnerty agreed to community service.

Seligmann, a 6-foot-1 sophomore, and Finnerty, a 6-foot-3 sophomore, were in handcuffs when they stepped out of a police cruiser at the Durham County Jail early Tuesday. Their early-morning surrenders were arranged as part of a deal with Nifong in which they were bailed out of jail in a matter of hours.

At a brief court appearance, Finnerty stood in jacket and tie as a May 15 date was set for the next hearing in the case. Seligmann waived his right to appear in court and was represented by one of his lawyers.

The district attorney has said that the woman making the allegations, a 27-year-old student and mother of two, was attacked by three men. In a statement, Nifong said he hopes to charge a third person, “but the evidence available to me at this time does not permit that. Investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can also be identified with certainty.”

Attorneys for the players have demanded Nifong drop the investigation, arguing that DNA tests failed to connect any of the team members to the alleged rape. They have also charged that the accuser was intoxicated and injured when she showed up for the party.

“This is probably the worst miscarriage of justice I’ve seen in 34 years of practice,” said another Seligmann lawyer, Julian Mack.

Bill Thomas, a lawyer for a player who has not been charged, said that one of the two men under indictment did not even attend the party. He would not specify which one, saying only that “multiple witnesses and a commercial transaction” would provide an alibi.

According to a filing made by the district attorney’s office, the residents of the house where the party took place told police that Seligmann was one of six players who did not attend the party.

Another attorney, Robert Ekstrand, who represents dozens of players, said neither Seligmann nor Finnerty was at the party “at the relevant time.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12366767/page/2/

[Faithless]

That Finnerty is a piece of work:

Suspect In Duke Rape Case May Lose Gay-Bashing Plea Bargain (http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/04/041806dukeUpdt.htm)

And here I thought lacrosse was such a genteal sport. :rolleyes:

Finnerty entered a diversion program, under which the charges would be dismissed after the completion of 25 hours of community service. The diversion agreement called for Finnerty to refrain from committing any criminal offense.

"We're considering revocation of the diversion," Channing Phillips, a spokesman for D.C.'s U.S. Attorney's Office, said Tuesday.

The simple assault charge carries a potential penalty of 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1,000. Hearings in the case are scheduled for April 25 and Sept. 25, the U.S. Attorney's Office said.

by The Associated Press | April 18, 2006 - 10:00 pm ET

(Durham, North Carolina) Federal prosecutors could revoke a deal reached in an assault case with a Duke lacrosse player charged with raping a stripper at a team party, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office said Tuesday.

Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, N.Y., was charged with assault on Nov. 5, after he and two high school lacrosse teammates were involved in a confrontation with Jeffrey O. Bloxgom in Georgetown, according to records at D.C. Superior Court. (story)

Bloxgom said Finnerty and the other young men "punched him in the face and body" after he told them to "stop calling him gay and other derogatory names," according to the complaint. He added "that when he tried to walk away, the subjects without provocation attacked him, busting his lip and bruising his chin."

The three men were arrested after Bloxgom flagged down police. Paramedics treated him at the scene.

Finnerty entered a diversion program, under which the charges would be dismissed after the completion of 25 hours of community service. The diversion agreement called for Finnerty to refrain from committing any criminal offense.

"We're considering revocation of the diversion," Channing Phillips, a spokesman for D.C.'s U.S. Attorney's Office, said Tuesday.

The simple assault charge carries a potential penalty of 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1,000. Hearings in the case are scheduled for April 25 and Sept. 25, the U.S. Attorney's Office said.

Calls to Steven J. McCool, who is representing Finnerty in the Georgetown case, were not returned.

Finnerty made a brief court appearance Tuesday in Durham, N.C., on charges of rape and kidnapping. A 27-year-old black woman and mother of two children told police she was attacked March 13 by three white men in a bathroom at an off-campus party held by the lacrosse team.

The woman in the case also has a criminal history. She pleaded guilty following a June 2002 incident to misdemeanor counts of larceny, speeding to elude arrest, assault on a government official and driving while impaired.

[TB4000]

That kid that was accused, his father's name is Kevin Finnerty. Just like on the Sopranos. Makes you think, man.

[yoMAMA]

indicted by the grand jury!

dumbass jocks.

[A.R.A.M.]

^That isn't surprising. Isn't the grand jury simply a rubber stamp organization for the D.A.'s office?

[lethal]

^yeah, pretty much. the standard for grand jury indictment is "probable cause," which is the same standard as a police officer uses to arrest a person. it is not a high threshhold to cross.

[yoMAMA]

^yeah, pretty much. the standard for grand jury indictment is "probable cause," which is the same standard as a police officer uses to arrest a person. it is not a high threshhold to cross.

well, the man has to do what he has to do to win re-election.

:wink:

[power puff girl]

okay, i'm going to have to address a few points.

first of all, the medical evidence indicates that she was brutally raped. a doctor and a nurse both examined her, and their conclusion was that she was raped.

the fact that there hasn't been any DNA evidence does not prove she was raped. whomever raped her used a broomstick to rape her so that's why there wasn't any DNA evidence.

now that we can all agree that she was raped, we are left with two possibilites: she was raped by three duke lacrosse players or could have pointed out the wrong men admist all the confusion and terror of being brutally raped.

the second could be a possibilty, and i think is what the rapists hoped for when they conviced everybody at the party to not cooperate with the police so that the wrong person would be identified as the rapist.

and, the way the victim has been trashed is reminiscent of the way robert chambers defense went after jennifer levin, when she was no longer alive to defend herself. they were implying that her murder was somehow justified cause she liked to party. and, now, in this case, you've got scumbags like Rush and Tucker Carlson calling her a 'ho' and a prostitute, despite no evidence to support that, with the implication that a prostitute does not deserve the same right to not be raped as any other woman.

and, there is no doubt by either sides about racist and sexist behavior by the duke players at that party. other witnesses have stepped forward to support the claim that those players were hurling racial ephitets at those two young women. somebody shouted out thanks to her grandfather for his cotton shirt.

and, yes, there are differences between how blacks and whites are treated in our justice system. look at the numbers of blacks in prison, and how they are convicted at a higher rate than whites. or, how blacks are given longer sentences.

[snailpoo]

first of all, the medical evidence indicates that she was brutally raped. a doctor and a nurse both examined her, and their conclusion was that she was raped.


Actually no. Medical examinations cannot determine rape. How do you determine consent by a medical exam?



the fact that there hasn't been any DNA evidence does not prove she was raped.
Except that there was DNA evidence left behind that didn't match any of the players.


whomever raped her used a broomstick to rape her so that's why there wasn't any DNA evidence.
Not if you listen to her entire story. Sorry, but when she claims to have scratched the her attackers hard enough to tear her nails, there SHOULD BE DNA at least under her nails.


now that we can all agree that she was raped, we are left with two possibilites: she was raped by three duke lacrosse players or could have pointed out the wrong men admist all the confusion and terror of being brutally raped.
No we can't all agree that she was raped. In fact, the DNA that was recovered doesn't match any of the players.


the second could be a possibilty, and i think is what the rapists hoped for when they conviced everybody at the party to not cooperate with the police so that the wrong person would be identified as the rapist.

It's very interesting that innocence doesn't even exist as a possibility for you.

[Faithless]

Actually no. Medical examinations cannot determine rape. How do you determine consent by a medical exam?
Forensic medical examination -- nonconsensual sexual contact.

[moJo]

Forensic medical examination -- nonconsensual sexual contact.
but how does one rule out the possibility of rough consensual sex?

[snailpoo]

Forensic medical examination -- nonconsensual sexual contact.

Maybe you can explain this from a medical and legal perspective:

What are the physical attributes left behind by consent? What are the physical attributes left behind by non-consent?


and, the way the victim has been trashed is reminiscent of the way robert chambers defense went after jennifer levin, when she was no longer alive to defend herself. they were implying that her murder was somehow justified cause she liked to party. and, now, in this case, you've got scumbags like Rush and Tucker Carlson calling her a 'ho' and a prostitute, despite no evidence to support that, with the implication that a prostitute does not deserve the same right to not be raped as any other woman.

Except for TWO HUGE differences: One, she's lied about being raped before. Two, there was another man's DNA found that doesn't match any of the lacross players.

Trashing reputation is one thing. Things that pertain specifically to this incident is another.

[snailpoo]

And then theres:


DURHAM, N.C. - A second stripper who performed at a Duke University lacrosse party where a dancer said she was assaulted called the allegations a “crock” in early interviews with police, according to court papers filed by a defense lawyer.

Kim Roberts said the accuser was out of her sight for only five minutes. The accuser told police she was dragged into a bathroom and raped, beaten and choked for half an hour.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13211632/



...I'm still waiting for the Law and Order episode.

[power puff girl]

Except for TWO HUGE differences: One, she's lied about being raped before.

more lies by the far right.

when did she ever lie about rape?

just because that case did not lead to a conviction does not mean that a vicious, horrible crime was not commited.

this poor woman has had the unfortunate life experience due to her race and class to be at the wrong place at the wrong time more than once.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13211632/

...I'm still waiting for the Law and Order episode.

and, what does that prove since the second woman, after careful consideration, now supports the rape victim and supports the rape victim. the difference in time accounts doesn't really prove anything. if you went through something as traumautic as rape, i'm sure you'd lose track of time too. and, the second woman could just as easily be wrong with her estimate of five minutes.

Forensic medical examination -- nonconsensual sexual contact.

exactly.

i don't see how consensual sex, even rough, could have caused all those tears and injuries that would lead a doctor and a nurse to believe that she had been raped. at what point, would somebody agree to allow a broomstick to be shoved up their asshole and vagina.

that's like saying that a battered woman with a black eye and bruises doesn't prove anything either, as it could have been rough consensual foreplay. sure, maybe that woman had been throwing herselfes against walls and doorknobs to hurt herself but its highly unlikely.

if we're going to be so cynical about this case, then how you can then prosecute any rape cases then? yes, there's no DNA. but, most rape cases don't have them either. at least, this case has forensic medical evidence to bolster her claims.

[snailpoo]

more lies by the far right.
...
this poor woman has had the unfortunate life experience due to her race and class to be at the wrong place at the wrong time more than once.

Since when was this case politicized by the far right? If you remember, the DA was the only one running for office, and he and his opponents are all Democrats.

Of course, your particular spin on this seems to be... far left.



when did she ever lie about rape?

just because that case did not lead to a conviction does not mean that a vicious, horrible crime was not commited.

Well, let's see. She just happens to have been raped by 3 men. She just waited for 3 years to file a report.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9083147/detail.html

Not suspicious enough?

She just happened to change her story a few times.

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/cops-say-duke-rape-accuser-changed-story

Shelton says the woman would not speak with police officers, so they decided to take her for involuntary commitment at the Durham Access Center. A short time later, Shelton got a call from another officer that made him go back at talk to the alleged victim again.

"He called me and stated the female stated she had been raped…Once at Duke [Hospital], I spoke to the female, who was now cooperative," Shelton wrote. "She said some of the guys from the party pulled her from the vehicle and groped her. She told me that no one forced her to have sex."

Then, Shelton says the alleged victim’s story changed again.

"Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the [doctor] that she had been raped? I returned? and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom."

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/cops-say-duke-rape-accuser-changed-story

So up until this point there are inconsistencies in her story, but you continue to focus upon her last story:



and, what does that prove since the second woman, after careful consideration, now supports the rape victim and supports the rape victim.

Look at the date of the article. The defense says that her "careful consideration" to support the rape victim was due to pressure by the prosecution. In case you didn't notice, she now has gone back to her original story.



the difference in time accounts doesn't really prove anything. if you went through something as traumautic as rape, i'm sure you'd lose track of time too. and, the second woman could just as easily be wrong with her estimate of five minutes.

See, the problem with a little thing called timing, is whether or not any of this ACTUALLY COULD HAVE OCCURED. When it is a he said, she said, it's a little bit diffuclt to believe what she said, when there's a cab driver, atm receipts, and a restaurant order to place him out of the house. Can you not see how timing might be a *little* be problematic?

When she says she was pulled into the bedroom, err, bathroom for half an hour, that become a little bit problematic if they weren't in the house (the second time) for that long. That becomes a little bit problematic all the things that she claims were done to her.



if we're going to be so cynical about this case, then how you can then prosecute any rape cases then? yes, there's no DNA. but, most rape cases don't have them either. at least, this case has forensic medical evidence to bolster her claims.

Except for one problem --you're either not reading everything coming out of the case or you're not reading anythign that disagrees with your stance. There IS DNA in this case. DNA WAS RECOVERED, and it doesn't match any of the guys on the team.

Again, the problem with her story is that, while true, many rape cases claims to not have DNA, HER VERSION of what happened should have DNA. If she, as she claimed, scratched the players hard enough to break her nails and to break their skin, there should be their DNA under her fingernails.

Again, power puff girl, the problem here is with her story. She keeps changing it, and the final version of what she changed it too... doesn't seem to fit the physical evidence. There's no cynicism here.


Maybe at trial there might be some earth shattering revelations, but given the facts released in the media thus far...




***not legal advice, legal opinion, legal analysis, but just uninformed personal opinion gathered from reading random websites.

[snailpoo]

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13392547/site/newsweek/page/2/


first of all, the medical evidence indicates that she was brutally raped. a doctor and a nurse both examined her, and their conclusion was that she was raped.

Apparently no doctor examined her. The nurse who examined her determined she had sex, and said nothing about rape.

According to the medical reports quoted in court filings by defense lawyers, she told doctors that she had been raped, but did not say that she had been hit or choked. She claimed tenderness over her body, but the examining nurse-in-training found her head, neck, nose, throat, mouth, chest, breasts, abdomen and upper and lower extremities to be normal. She denied that her assailants had used condoms. The nurse-in-training found only that she had "diffuse edema of the vaginal walls" (swelling), which can be caused by normal sexual activity. She had had sexual intercourse with at least two men in the past week and told of "performing" for a couple by using a small vibrator.
...
It appears that Nifong had not actually seen the medical reports when he talked to reporters on March 29 about "my reading of the report of the emergency-room nurse." The medical report was not turned over to the police for another week, on April 5. Rather, Nifong may have relied on what a police investigator had told him. The detective's notes claim that the sexual-assault nurse told him that "there were signs consistent with a sexual assault during her test."



the fact that there hasn't been any DNA evidence does not prove she was raped. whomever raped her used a broomstick to rape her so that's why there wasn't any DNA evidence.
Except
According to the medical reports quoted in court filings by defense lawyers, she told doctors that she had been raped, but did not say that she had been hit or choked. She claimed tenderness over her body, but the examining nurse-in-training found her head, neck, nose, throat, mouth, chest, breasts, abdomen and upper and lower extremities to be normal. She denied that her assailants had used condoms.
and
The father has been supportive of her this time around, but he told yet another version of what happened—that the Duke players used a broom handle.
Did SHE ever say that she was raped with a broomhandle?




when did she ever lie about rape?
Her story constantly changes:
When police called to the scene first found her in a parked car near a Kroger grocery store at about 1:30 a.m., the woman appeared to be passed-out drunk, though a police officer suspected that she was only pretending to be unconscious. She didn't say she had been raped until she was taken to a mental-health and substance-abuse facility, where she was to be involuntarily committed. But then, after being released and taken to the hospital, she recanted to a police officer—saying that she had not been raped but rather "groped" by some of the players. She later changed her story and told nurses and doctors that she had been raped after all, though in one account she had been raped by 20 men, in another by two men, in another by three. Her tests showed some semen in her vagina—but none belonging to any of the Duke players, according to uncontradicted assertions by defense attorneys. It is difficult to imagine that if she had indeed been orally, anally and vaginally raped by the players, there wouldn't be some trace of semen from at least one of them.

According to the medical reports quoted in court filings by defense lawyers, she told doctors that she had been raped, but did not say that she had been hit or choked. She claimed tenderness over her body, but the examining nurse-in-training found her head, neck, nose, throat, mouth, chest, breasts, abdomen and upper and lower extremities to be normal. She denied that her assailants had used condoms.


just because that case did not lead to a conviction does not mean that a vicious, horrible crime was not commited.
So you don't believe the father when it's convenient for you... but you believe the father about the broomhandle?
Ten years ago she claimed she had been raped three years earlier by three men, but her father told reporters that the rape never happened, and she never followed through with the authorities. The father has been supportive of her this time around, but he told yet another version of what happened—that the Duke players used a broom handle.

[deez nuts]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060623153209990007&ncid=NWS00010000000001

i'm pulling for you duke blue devils.

[Golden Monkey]

snailpoo, I give you credit for all the effort you are making but I don't think PPGirl cares. To her:

MAN = bad

Woman = good

Hetero = bad

Gay = good

White = bad

P. of C. = good

White hetero man = really bad

White hetero BMW driving rich college lacrosse man = evil

Forget the evidence and arguments. All that matters is the politically correct dogma.

[bluemonq]

if these guys are (as should be assumed unless proven otherwise) innocent, they're still going to have to live with this attached to their names for the rest of their lives. where's the justice in that?

[deez nuts]

snailpoo, I give you credit for all the effort you are making but I don't think PPGirl cares. To her:

MAN = bad

Woman = good

Hetero = bad

Gay = good

White = bad

P. of C. = good

White hetero man = really bad

White hetero BMW driving rich college lacrosse man = evil

Forget the evidence and arguments. All that matters is the politically correct dogma.

she was probably gang raped by a bunch of bmw driving white guys.

[haplesshobo]

if these guys are (as should be assumed unless proven otherwise) innocent, they're still going to have to live with this attached to their names for the rest of their lives. where's the justice in that?

Those players have already suffered the consequences from something they may or, as it increasingly seems, something they did not do.

One of the defendants had a coveted job offer on wall street with JP Morgan rescinded.

Another defendant had previously copped to a plea bargain for an unrelated assault crime where the charges would have been dropped after completing a number of hours of community service. But, with his arrest, the prosecutors are going to now go after him on those previous charges.

And, its not just the Duke players who were charged who will have this stigma attached to them, but the rest of the players on the Duke lacrosse team as well. It used to be a selling point when you graduated to say that you played lacrosse at Duke. But, a lot of that has been damaged in the wake of these accusations.

[deez nuts]

they should definitely sue her if they are acquitted. she's not worth much though.

[bluemonq]

wouldn't work; despite being innocent, they'd probably be painted as vengeful guys beating up (this time metaphorically) on her. perhaps there should be an investigation into the case of whether or not perjury occured.

[haplesshobo]

The thing I don't understand is if we're going to shield the 'victim' identity and her sexual past, where we're going to dance around the possibility that she's more than just a dancer, then why don't we also shield the defendant's identity as well untill they're convicted. The defendant's reputations are already tarnished just by the accusation of the crime.

[power puff girl]

one of the reasons why i tend to believe this woman, indeed most women, in these type of cases is that a woman has nothing to gain, and everything to lose by coming forward and making this accusation. its become standard procedure for the defense to basically smear the woman and try to destroy her. we've seen with this case, we saw with the kobe bryant case, and we'll see it again. with that said, i cannot see a woman subjecting herself for no reason; indeed, that's why so many rapes go unreported each year.

and, i'll end this by saying that even the hint of such misbehavior probably could have been avoided if duke university was more diverse. would those players have made scarcastic comments toward the woman, thanking her grandfather for picking the cotton used for their shirts? even duke university recognized this in its own investigation, and said that it would have been handled differently if the school had been more diverse.

[deez nuts]

if i was a chick and i was in a room alone with a professional athlete or anybody rich or comes from a well to do family (i.e. the duke lacrosse team guys accused of raped), i would totally seduce him, let him have his way with me and then fabricate a rape story. subjecting myself to an ordeal of trial is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands i'll cash in if i settle - if i get away with it.

[snailpoo]

one of the reasons why i tend to believe this woman, indeed most women, in these type of cases is that a woman has nothing to gain, and everything to lose by coming forward and making this accusation.

Well, let's see. The immediate thing she gained was that she got out of a public intoxication charge. Then there's law suits, publicity...



its become standard procedure for the defense to basically smear the woman and try to destroy her.

What part of "smearing" was releasing the police report showing that she changed her story four or five time?


that's why so many rapes go unreported each year.
Simply because rape is a serious issue, and because many women are victims, does NOT mean that EVERY woman who cries rape is telling the truth.


and, i'll end this by saying that even the hint of such misbehavior probably could have been avoided if duke university was more diverse. would those players have made scarcastic comments toward the woman, thanking her grandfather for picking the cotton used for their shirts?

Back to credibility. That anonymous 911 call reporting these comments was made by her.

[Faithless]

Finnerty convicted of an unrelated misdemeanor assault charge on a bar patron.

Duke rape suspect convicted in separate assault case (http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060712/NEWS/607120482/-1/State)

Associated Press | Published July 12. 2006 3:30AM

Washington | A Duke University lacrosse player charged with raping an exotic dancer during a team party was convicted of a misdemeanor Tuesday in a separate assault last year on a bar patron.

Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, N.Y., was sentenced to six months' probation after a two-day trial.

The judge also ordered Finnerty to submit to drug and alcohol treatment if probation officers deem it necessary. During his probation, Finnerty also must stay out of any establishment where alcohol is served unless accompanied by his parents, and must stay out of the Georgetown neighborhood, where the assault occurred.

Finnerty could have gotten six months in jail; prosecutors did not ask the judge to impose jail time.

.
Is there any reason to debate this thing round-and-round until the court case really gets going and / or new evidence really leads to something conclusive?

[noname]

a new development - the alleged victim is reportedly pregnant (9 months after the incident) and is due to give birth soon, if she hasn't already
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16191462/

[younggiftedandblack]

Rape charges dropped in Duke lacrosse case
But kidnapping, sexual offense charges still stand against three players

NBC VIDEO


• Rape charges dismissed in Duke case
Dec. 22: A defense attorney says prosecutors have dismissed rape charges against three Duke University lacrosse players, but charges of kidnapping and sexual offense still stand. NBC's General Manager Dan Abrams discusses the case the "Most" host Alison Stewart.
The Most


NBC VIDEO

• Duke player's attorney reacts to dropped charges
Dec. 22: Butch Williams, an attorney for one of the Duke lacrosse players, says the prosecutor did the right thing by dropping the rape charges against the three men.
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Updated: 14 minutes ago
DURHAM, N.C. - Prosecutors dropped rape charges Friday against three Duke University lacrosse players accused of attacking a stripper at a team party, but the three still face kidnapping and sexual offense charges.

According to court papers filed Friday by District Attorney Mike Nifong, the accuser told a prosecution investigator on Thursday that she now does not know if she was penetrated during the alleged attack.

Nifong had previously said he would rely on the woman’s account because of a lack of DNA evidence against the players.

Lacking any “scientific or other evidence independent of the victim’s testimony” to corroborate that aspect of the case, Nifong wrote, “the State is unable to meet its burden of proof with respect to this offense.”


ALSO ON THIS STORY
DISCUSS: What is your take on the case?



Nifong did not immediately return calls seeking comment Friday, and a sign posted on his office door read, “No media, please!”

The accuser, a 28-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, has said three men raped her in a bathroom at a March 13 Duke lacrosse team party where she was hired to perform as a stripper.

The indicted players — Dave Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann — all say they are innocent, and their attorneys have consistently said no sex occurred at the party.

The defense attorneys have repeatedly cited a lack of DNA evidence in the case as proof of their clients’ innocence, while Nifong had said he didn’t need DNA evidence to win convictions.

“It’s highly coincidental,” said defense attorney Joseph Cheshire, that the charges are being dropped a week after the director of a private DNA testing lab acknowledged that he initially, with Nifong’s knowledge, withheld from the defense test results showing none of the players’ DNA was found on or in the accuser’s body.

Testing also showed that genetic material from several males was found on her undergarments and body.

“The reality is, what else could the DA do?” said Stan Goldman, who teaches criminal law, evidence and criminal procedure at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles. “Once the DNA evidence came out last week, I can’t imagine how they could sustain a rape charge.”

That the accuser had again changed her story hurts Nifong’s case on the other charges, as well, Goldman said.

“It strikes me that a case based on this particular complaining witnesses’ credibility appears to be in jeopardy,” he said.

Defense attorneys have said for months that the woman has told several different versions of the alleged assault, and Seligmann’s attorney has said she has given investigators at least a dozen different versions of the alleged attack.

The defense also has argued that the woman misidentified her alleged attackers in a photo lineup and they have asked the judge to prevent the accuser from identifying the players from the witness stand.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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[Golden Monkey]

But kidnapping, sexual offense charges still stand against three players

Meaning........on with the trial.

[Faithless]

Man, has this thing been a weird case or what?

That DA should have joined the Bush team because he could sell a war.

[bluemonq]

Meaning........on with the trial.
Probably not. Odds are the rest of the charges will be plea-bargained or dropped by the end of February. Without the rape charge, the case ends up losing a lot of force.

[sageb1]

stripper: well it felt like a white penis in my 'gina.

[sageb1]

She's accused the lacrosse team cos the real daddy of her baby left her when he got news of her pregnancy.

[VV o n g B a]

it's over. remaining charges are dropped.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18046103/

[Space_Cabbage]

this story just makes me really angry.

you've got a bunch of white, overpriliged jocks at a alchol fueled party grabbed a young, black mother into a bathroom where they proceeded to beat her, choke her, rape her, and then rob her. all medical evidence is consistent with her claims that she was raped, and the prosecutors believe that a rape did take place. and, another witness has stepped up to tell the police that the lacrosse team was shouting at racial slurs at her and the victim, calling them the n word.

if we were talking about a black man raping a white woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

if we were talking about a poor man raping a woman, that man would be sitting in prison.

but, because we are talking about privleged, white athletes who attented some of the best prep schools, these men are still free as they go to bars to drink shots and chant 'duke lacrosse' at the same time that protestors are marching against violence against women.

and, of course, none of the jocks don't want to come out and tell the police what happened. instead, all we're getting is a wall of silence cause it would be uncool to rat out on your teamate but its somehow okay to rape a woman.


WOW talk about jumping to conclusions.:rolleyes:
I had to laugh at this thread.

[Tenk]

WOW talk about jumping to conclusions.:rolleyes:
I had to laugh at this thread.

agreed. The Duke lacrosse players should pursue charges against Nifong for lying and hiding evidence.

[deez nuts]

a black chick accusing a bunch of outstanding duke athletes just having a good time (i mean boys will be boys) that happens to be white, it's basically good game whities before the trial even starts around here on yw.

[Yeahman]

The early comments on this thread are interesting:

but, because we are talking about privleged, white athletes who attented some of the best prep schools, these men are still free as they go to bars to drink shots and chant 'duke lacrosse' at the same time that protestors are marching against violence against women.
Ridiculous. Of course it's gonna be downplayed if they're suburban and can afford lawyers.
Can we at least wait until the DNA results get back before we rush to judgment?

It's very odd that on THIS progressive board, we get all huffy and puffy when a minority is accused and assumed guilty, but we automatically ASSUME the lacrosse TEAM (only 3 of them allegedly did it) is guilty BEFORE the DNA results are back.
However, I am saying that it is a little bit hypocritical that we would condemn those who would rush to judgement when a minority is accused... and then rush to judgement ourselves when it's a bunch of white guys.
Reread that first post. Does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence? AND, does it allow for even the possiblity of innocence for the 40 someodd members other than the three accused? Forget about a jury finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, this post assumes guilt without the possibility of innocence while DA CAN'T EVEN FILE CHARGES BECAUSE HE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHO TO CHARGE. How is that for presumption of innocence? That post is AUTOMATICALLY WRONG for at least the MAJORITY of the people it ASSUMES guilty, if not WRONG COMPLETELY.

At least wait until 1. the DNA results come back, and 2. ACTUAL CHARGES ARE FILED, before rushing to judgement, because, apparently, waiting for a verdict is too much to ask.:rolleyes:
Dude, the prosecutor is going to charge them irregardless of any DNA evidence.
This sucks and I hope the people be held responsible for the crime.
Let an actual investigation be conducted, evidence garnered, wait for the facts, don't rush to judge. And so on.
now that we can all agree that she was raped, we are left with two possibilites: she was raped by three duke lacrosse players or could have pointed out the wrong men admist all the confusion and terror of being brutally raped.
more lies by the far right.
this poor woman has had the unfortunate life experience due to her race and class to be at the wrong place at the wrong time more than once.

[ColinB]

usually i am the 1st to think where theres smoke theres fire but i think snailpoo has earned a big NYAA NYAA NYAA to power puff girl and the YW lynch mob hysteria types.


The early comments on this thread are interesting:

[BeTheReds]

Every time a high profile crime happens ppl on YW quickly accuse the white man, hoping that it's anyone but an Asian. Every time a possible crime happens with a White person involved, he's already guilty to YW. I am glad that nobody can be sued for slander from what they write on a message board.

[deez nuts]

duke plays hopkins in the NCAA lacrosse title game today

GO BLUE DEVILS!

[Golden Monkey]

duke plays hopkins in the NCAA lacrosse title game today

GO BLUE DEVILS!

Yeah, especially considering that the Johns Hopkins team is known to wear anti-Asian male t-shirts, date Fobby Asian chicks, and watch DVDs of Breakfast at Tiffany's, Sixteen Candles and Lost in Translation.

Go Duke!

[kimpossible]

Love is in the air.

[snailpoo]

usually i am the 1st to think where theres smoke theres fire but i think snailpoo has earned a big NYAA NYAA NYAA to power puff girl and the YW lynch mob hysteria types.

Bah. It just struck me as odd when people give up their DNA without a fight when they're accused of rape with DNA evidence. They're either dumb or innocent.

[yoMAMA]

they lost to john hopkins.

[deez nuts]

the nc state bar is pursuing disciplinary actions against nifong

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/06/12/ap3813884.html

[haplesshobo]

The early comments on this thread are interesting:

And, even now, despite all the evidence, this is what PPG has said about this case in another thread:

i'll support anything that will bring down wolfie; his hands are stained with the blood of millions of people. we all know he's guilty, so it doesn't matter to me how he's taken down. additionally, he should have never been appointed by our illegitimate president in the first place.

i just hope he's not able to get away by finding some legal loophole with the help of some connected lawyer, in the same way those duke lacrosse players were able to buy their freedom.

[bluemonq]

Oh, be nice. She can't help herself. It's not nice to make fun of people who are... different in their thinking.

[haplesshobo]

the nc state bar is pursuing disciplinary actions against nifong

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/06/12/ap3813884.html

Nifong got disabarred, and the judge ordered him to leave office immediately.

[Golden Monkey]

Nifong got disabarred, and the judge ordered him to leave office immediately.

And now he faces a civil suit from the players. He could lose his house and other holdings.

I hope they replace him with the woman he beat in the election.

I wonder how he feels about having a black judge tell him to take his lying azz home. :biggrin:

http://www.courttv.com/graphics/photos/trials/michael-peterson/key-players/judge-hudson-keyplayers-062703.jpg

Superior Court Judge Orlando Hudson

[deez nuts]

to be fair, power puff girl wasn't the only one that jumped the gun. there are a few other dumb hippy whitephobes here that also jumped the gun on this one.