buying brides

[VV o n g B a]

first let me say that i abhor the practice of buying brides from china. one of my friends has a co-worker that did exactly that. i would as soon as spit on him as shake his hand.

but... this story (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/DK14Ad03.html) about vietnamese brides bought by chinese has given me pause. there seems to be so much wrongness about the situation, but there seem to be pockets of fairness too.

basically the story says that viet brides are bought illegally by chinese men b/c many chinese men can't afford to buy chinese wives. many times these wives are kidnapped. but after staying in china, if they are repatriated by chinese authorities, they'll sneak right back across the border willingly. and the men seem to think its like gambling. they know that their wives may leave them if they want (as some have), so they generally try to treat their wives fairly. the wives come back b/c of the economic opportunities afforded them by growing chinese wealth. its such a messed up situation that i don't really know how to make a clear judgement on this anymore.

which brings me back to my loathing of people in the US who buy brides. if i don't condemn whats going on in asia very clearly, i don't have any right to be angry at the men here. but if the viet women by and large accept whats going on, what can i say? i mean, the brides bought by US men are in pretty much the same situation, but are actually in a better position to prosper. its just turned into an mutually beneficial relationship. how can i get mad at that? i really can't...

[angel nympho]

But you can be mad at the fact that these women are basically KIDNAPPED from their lives in Vietnam.... sure it becomes a willing choice LATER.... but.... kidnapping?

[VV o n g B a]

yeah of course the kidnapping is wrong. no doubt. the thing here is, can i get mad at the OVERALL situation? the situation changes from terrible to good or tolerable at the very least. can say the situation shouldn't happen? of course it shouldn't have begun in the first place. but it does happen. but what should we do or say if these women actively try to maintain the relationship once it has happened? they basically make lemonade after being given the lemon.

what about the nonkidnapped women and the whole tradition of buying women in the first place? do u try to reform the entire culture over there? :confused: if yes, then who's gonna do it? and who's gonna listen? much of this should change as those regions become more westernized, but seeing as how its the farmers over there doing this, it will be a very very long time before that happens.

[angel nympho]

I wouldn't be mad at the situation if it was a customary thing when the women were actually WILLING to take part.

[ChinaLama]

It could also be adaptive preferences. For instance, Vietnamese women may not LIKE being kidnapped, but they may say, "well, what can ya do? it's real life. No one's gonna stand up for me so i may as well accept it." So...not to get too touchy, but this is also what kinda happens w/ slavery. While people may prefer to be free if they had that choice, they may be so used to being slaves that they accept it and are even happy w/ the outcome. So, I think the practice is still wrong, it just doesn't *seem* as wrong cuz the women who are "happy" w/ it don't think there's anything better.

[amietron]

the women benefit though, don't they? they're put up by the husbands who bought them. i'm sure in many cases the women aren't forced to work or anything, so basically they live in luxury?

wouldn't you rather live with money than without it?

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by amietron@Nov 13 2002, 07:53 PM
the women benefit though, don't they? they're put up by the husbands who bought them. i'm sure in many cases the women aren't forced to work or anything, so basically they live in luxury?

wouldn't you rather live with money than without it?
shrug you can say the same about slaves. They benefit from being under their master's care cuz they're fed regularly and housed well, since the master wants full-bodied workers. But does that make slavery right?

Same in this case. A husband can excuse his past behavior all he wants w/ how he treats his wife now, doesn't make the past action right.

and it's kind of like how men beat their spouses. You can argue that some battered women benefit from the relationship in a coldly rational cost-benefit analysis. The few bruises here or there are well overcompensated by the sorry-gifts afterward. But that doesn't mean beating women is ok just cuz the guys make up for it later.


*although* i should clarify, i'm against taking women by force or by deception. i don't care if they do it of their own free will*

[thaite]

I'm gonna buy me like five of them -- but not Chinese ones, cuz those chicks are crazy.

[Uncle Tat]

Originally posted by buoywonder@Nov 13 2002, 05:16 PM
I'm gonna buy me like five of them -- but not Chinese ones, cuz those chicks are crazy.
Aren't there laws against that sort of behavior? :rolleyes:

[artsfartsyjanet]

Though these women are free to return to their country, then I question the ease of doing that is. If their economic situation is much better being in China than in Vietnam, (whether they are treated fairly or not), what is the likelihood that these women would want to go back to their previous conditions? I would imagine that the transition of moving back to a country is very difficult. I also question how freely these women are in deciding to marry husbands who are financially more stable? Though the option is there for these women to go off with these men (in China or the U.S.), I question how much critical thought they put into their decision because I highly doubt that if their plan goes wrong, the amount of resources for them or the awareness of any support will highly limit their advancement especially economically and socially.

[luv]

I remember reading a couple months back about the prevalence of women being kidnapped in China to be forced to marry farming people in China. The problem, I guess, stems from the disproportionate female/male ratio (more men than women and ratio is rising). Since there is a shortage of available women, the women usually choose to marry in the cities in relative luxury -- not being satisfied with a life of child-rearing and backbreaking farmwork.

I also remember the article mentioning that some kidnapped girls are as young as 14 or 15. The practice is pretty disgusting.

The fundamental problem is people valuing boys over girls.

[kasia]

even if they are sold to rich husbands and do enter into "lives of luxury", isn't there still something degrading about being "bought"?


re: mail order brides...i used to work at a legal center during my first year of law school...and i've encountered sits. where white guys would buy chinese girls, bring them over, marry them, but them basically keep them as sex slaves. they wouldn't let them leave the house, would make them have sex all the time, etc. etc. some of these girls tried to escape but were willing to stay until they got their permanent green cards...really sad situations. in some cases, the men were really deceiving b/c they seem lied about going to law schools here in the u.s., having tons of degrees, etc., and it would turn out that all their degrees were from non-accredited universities and these women fell for it just b/c they weren't familiar with the u.s....

[seryb]

Would any women consider buying a husband from Asia? Just curious...

[kasia]

Originally posted by seryb@Nov 19 2002, 09:58 PM
Would any women consider buying a husband from Asia? Just curious...
:) that's an interesting idea...i'm going to start a new thread on it.


but back to mail-order brides...have any of you known any? relatives or family friends? are they labeled in any way? treated differently?

[VV o n g B a]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 20 2002, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by seryb@Nov 19 2002, 09:58 PM
Would any women consider buying a husband from Asia?  Just curious...
:) that's an interesting idea...i'm going to start a new thread on it.


but back to mail-order brides...have any of you known any? relatives or family friends? are they labeled in any way? treated differently?
i haven't known mail order brides per say... but i have known about old geezer chinese guys who have gone back to china and brought back a young wife/servant. and then seen that old geezer's teenage kids (he already did this b/f) treat the new wife poorly b/c they thought she was after their inheretance. pretty ugly situation.

[lethal]

Another thing to consider is why the women don't leave to go back to Vietnam (or whereever home may be). Admittedly I have not read the article, so it may address this point, but what if the women don't go home because they will be stigmatized there. What are the women going to do back in Vietnam? Possibly even their own parents sold them to the kidnappers simply because the parents could not afford to feed another daughter. Even if this isn't the case, Vietnamese people generally don't look too favorably upon a woman who has previously been married. Although this attitude is changing somewhat, the advancement is more prevailant in the cities. I imagine most of these women are country girls.

SOme of these arguments can be cross applied to mail order brides in the U.S.

As for the age thing, 14 or 15 is sick, but many 18 year old girls in the country are probably married by then.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Yeah, i know some old Chinese geezers who go back to China to find a subservient wife too. Makes me sick to my stomach....

[SunWuKong]

if i do that does it make anybody's stomach sick?