The term "oriental"

[BeTheReds]

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=28076
It is because of threads like these, that make me wonder what is so bad about a term like Oriental? Oriental definately does not mean Indians. It means Yellow people. Yellow is another term which I don't really understand why it is so bad.
----
Yes, Ive heard the reasoning behind it, but why then is Middle East as a term any more okay than Oriental or Far East?

Asians as a term is so ambiguous. Who exactly are we talking about? People can call themselves Asians because they have origins from an area that stretches from Turkey to Hawaii.

If Yellow and Oriental are not satisfactory, then we need another term to refer to people from east Asia. (BESIDES EAST ASIANS, smartasses.)

[lee duk sun]

i actually like being called oriental. i'm not sure why, but probably because it narrows it down that i'm from the coastal area, since asia is such a broad area and term...

[uhhden]

I think the problem people have with "oriental" is that it's an archaeic term that people associate with the likings of "Chink" and "Jap." I personally don't have a big issue with it. I just realized today that my dad's supermarket bags proudly proclaim "large selection of Oriental and American groceries."

But there are people who take offense... "I'm Asian, I'm not a rug." Whatever.

[lee duk sun]

But there are people who take offense... "I'm Asian, I'm not a rug." Whatever.

yeah, i've heard that too. just out of curiosity, which came first? the term oriental for rugs or for people? if it was the people, then saying oriental rug is nothing different from the context of 'irish coffee'...

[uhhden]

yeah, i've heard that too. just out of curiosity, which came first? the term oriental for rugs or for people? if it was the people, then saying oriental rug is nothing different from the context of 'irish coffee'...

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=545754

Thank you, Google.

[BeTheReds]

Right, it's a Eurocentric term, In relation to Europe, East Asia is the Orient, or the Far East.

But people seem to have no problems with the Middle East.

Why can't we call that Arabia or Persia?

[deez nuts]

oriental is not offensive to me.

if oriental is offensive, i don't see why asian isn't offensive either. they're both terms made by the imperialistic whitey.

oriental being offensive is just fishing for a cause and an issue as far as i'm concerned.

[grimfan]

[quoe]Right, it's a Eurocentric term, In relation to Europe, East Asia is the Orient, or the Far East.[/quote]

I disagree. Europeans refer to themselve as the Occident, meaning the West. In relation to what? The middle ground between Europe and Asia, or West and East, seems to be Kazakhstan. So I think it's a Kazakcentric term.

[DragonKnight]

I remember hearing that the term 'Oriental' was used as a term of 'the other' from a Euro-centric point of view.

[mr. x]

it's a lot like negro

[grimfan]

I remember hearing that the term 'Oriental' was used as a term of 'the other' from a Euro-centric point of view.

Orient = East = Asia

Occident = West = Europe

[AngryABCGirl]

I'm so over the term. I think it was a bigger issue in the past, but not so much now, espeically since it's used by so many Asians, ie esp recent i mmigrants cause of direct translation. It's not worht putting a fuss over.

[uhhden]

I'm so over the term. I think it was a bigger issue in the past, but not so much now, espeically since it's used by so many Asians, ie esp recent i mmigrants cause of direct translation. It's not worht putting a fuss over.

It might not be such a big deal to us, but I can understand why people would want to make a fuss out of it. Kind of like if the "N-word" had never been raised in question, would people be universally using it today instead of "black" or "African-American" or whatever the hell is PC. Basically, I think part of the reason people raise a fuss is if no one does, then something that's archaeic and ignorant will perpetuate in our society.

[Paradox]

I just realized today that my dad's supermarket bags proudly proclaim "large selection of Oriental and American groceries."

You realize that it's describing groceries and not people which is how oriental is supposed to be used.

But there are people who take offense... "I'm Asian, I'm not a rug." Whatever.
Well, oriental is used to describe objects and not people. I've met a few Jewish people who get offended when you use Jew as a verb or as a general descriptor of Jewish people. For instance "I was jewed out of 10 dollars" or "that's such a Jew thing to do." The fact is the way terms are used can be offensive. It doesn't matter whether or not it doesn't bother you specifically when the intent is still to offend and degrade.

[VV o n g B a]

asia itself doesn't have a very illustrious history. it was used by the roman empire to describe a conquered province in asia minor and meant "east." east of what? of europe of course.

there's very little to distinguish it from oriental historywise. logically it shouldn't make a difference either way, but of course emotions don't always make sense. i'd still rather be called asian rather than oriental even tho i know logically it doesn't matter much.

[TB4000]

I have older family members that still use the term oriental, which I do promptly correct them with, sans the 80 plus year olds that are pretty much set in their ways.

[mr. x]

I have older family members that still use the term oriental, which I do promptly correct them with, sans the 80 plus year olds that are pretty much set in their ways.
"cant count on dem orientals to back us up when the revolution against the crackas come!"

[rice cracker]

I don't like the term, it antiquated and needs to be phased out.

[didu]

would you get offended by a pack of instant noodles with the phrase
"Oriental flavour" written on it?

[rice cracker]

^ No, but I'd probably get offended by a T-shirt that said the same thing.

[mr. x]

would you get offended by a pack of instant noodles with the phrase
"Oriental flavour" written on it?
just as Im not the one labeled "oriental flavor"

[kpih]

The term 'Oriental' is problematic because it is intrinsically attached with exoticism, mysticism, and prejudice. It is not as neutrally descriptive as 'Asian'.

Of course we can also argue the same images and ideas are slapped onto 'Asian' as well. However, ultimately it is a better starting point than 'Oriental'.

Also, in contemporary America, 'Asian' is a political identity. It carries a symbolic effect of solidarity and mobilization (as minute as it is, but one can always hope and try...).

[BBChinese]

In UK calling someone "Asian," refers to someone that is of Indian/Pakistani origin. Its a trend which has been re-enforced over the past decade. I hear that many Americans do not like the term, "Oriental". There are no negative repurcussions for calling someone Oriental in Britian, however the term is rarely used. Britons are usually more specific and commonly ask your origins before making assumptions. E.g "Where are you from"?

Here's a thought? Do we have anyone from Central Asia? Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan??? Their food is similar to Chinese food except, culturally very different, mainly muslim and mostly converse in Russian!! Also Kyrgyz (language) is similar to Turkish.

If anyone has the chance to go there, Kyrgyzstan is a beautiful country.

[BeTheReds]

Okay some people think that it's okay, others don't. I've never heard Europeans refer to themselves as Occidentals, they just say Europeans. However I am one of those who believe that Europe is not a seperate continent from Asia. It is the Western part of the same landmass, that only gets to be a continent on its own because White Europeans wanted to seperate themselves from everyone else. While agree, that it's a totally seperate cultural sphere, I don't think the Ural Mountains and Ural River are quite enough to designate Europe as a seperate continent. If that's the case, the Himalayas are much more impressive continental barrier and thus East Asia should be known as it's own continent in the same light as Europe. How about if we name the new continent after the Yellow River just as Europe is named after the Ural river? Why are we thrust into the same continent as Indians and Arabians? Why isn't there a term that seperates the Yellow people living in East-Asia and the cultural sphere centered there? Oh yea, there was, "Oriental" and "The Orient". But now that those aren't PC, we have to call ourselves part of this huge umbrella continent called Asia and add a cardinal direction to it, (and conveniently, Europe is not a part of it.) I propose that we devise a new term or just keep using Oriental.

If we can't use Oriental is there some term which we can use to refer to 東洋人 then?

[VV o n g B a]

BTR, i've been thinking the same thing for awhile.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showpost.php?p=403457&postcount=14

[BeTheReds]

So what's your term then?

[didu]

^ No, but I'd probably get offended by a T-shirt that said the same thing.

just as Im not the one labeled "oriental flavor"

But doesn't that just show that the term itself is not offensive, but it's
only the way it is used can sometimes be offensive?

[VV o n g B a]

So what's your term then?the term i was thinking of was oriental. one very basic problem in picking a more descriptive and non-offensive term for east asians is that we're using european based language. if we use "their" language, then we're necessarily incorporating some of their biases.

i don't know if east asians would agree to any other common designation however b/c we'd end up using the language of one of the 3 main ethnicities. yellow seems pretty neutral on language except for its history and that it doesn't describe southeast asians. i guess they'd have to go for brown (as in "little brown brothers")? and south asians wouldn't get confused there b/c they already have desi?

[BeTheReds]

the term i was thinking of was oriental. one very basic problem in picking a more descriptive and non-offensive term for east asians is that we're using european based language. if we use "their" language, then we're necessarily incorporating some of their biases.

i don't know if east asians would agree to any other common designation however b/c we'd end up using the language of one of the 3 main ethnicities. yellow seems pretty neutral on language except for its history and that it doesn't describe southeast asians. i guess they'd have to go for brown (as in "little brown brothers")? and south asians wouldn't get confused there b/c they already have desi?


I remember there was one group of people who wanted to call us Gold, as it does not carry the negative stygma that yellow does. (Yellow is akin to cowardace.) I don't know though, Gold doesn't seem right for some reason. Neither then would other words for yellow, such as amber, or maize.

I suppose I'll just have to keep using Asian, but in Japanese and Korean (and I am sure in Chinese too) it's so much easier to say what you mean when referring to us without stepping on anyone's toes.

[rice cracker]

But doesn't that just show that the term itself is not offensive, but it's
only the way it is used can sometimes be offensive?

Well, in that vein what about the words "slant" and "chink?" On their own they are not offensive, only the way they are used can sometimes be offensive.

[BeTheReds]

Well, in that vein what about the words "slant" and "chink?" On their own they are not offensive, only the way they are used can sometimes be offensive.

Excellent point, however those words are laced with malice when used agains East-Asians. Oriental almost never is.

[rice cracker]

Excellent point, however those words are laced with malice when used agains East-Asians. Oriental almost never is.

Whether it's malice, objectification, or exotification the point remains that whatever the word is "laced" with, from the viewpoint of the listener, is objectionable. I think you need to meet more rednecks to ascertain how "oriental" comes across. You can just hear the "slanty eyed chinks" coming through. I can introduce you to my dad :biggrin:

[kimpossible]

I can introduce you to my dad :biggrin:

And mine. He knows all about The Asian Culture and slopes. He might even treat you to an afternoon showing of Suzie Wong.

edited to add: nice pic there, Yujin. it looks manly.

hey you bastard. put it back.

[BeTheReds]

Hmm, can't say I want to meet more rednecks. Then again, they'd think I'm white anyway. I even used the term Oriental (as did my Asian Dad)up until probably the early 1990's when suddenly there was this new wave of PCness that swept the land and it was deemed offensive. I've hence purged it from my vocabulary but have yet to understand how it's offensive other than that it is Eurocentric and falls along with terms like Far East. (Yet, somehow Middle East is okay.)


edited to add: nice pic there, Yujin. it looks manly.



Arr me matey! Avast, we be sailin round the tip o Africa into the yonder sea, and bearin' for the orient. Or maybe we be orientin' our sea dog selves to Davey Jones's locker, oooh me peg leg be a shakin!

[Shuriken]

Here is a quote:

It has always been difficult for me to accept being called Oriental, since "Oriental" denotes east of somewhere, east of some other-defined center. Oriental is such an imprecise term: what is an Oriental flavor? an Oriental atmosphere or look? Asian American is a bit more precise. At least this term connotes an American identity for Asians, and it sounds more objective than Oriental.... Distinctions among the various [Asian] national groups sometimes do blur after a generation or two, when it is easier for us to see that we are bound together by the experiences we share as members of an American racial minority, but, when we do so, we are accepting an externally imposed label that is meant to define us by distinguishing us from other Americans primarily on the basis of race rather than culture.

Elaine H. Kim, Asian American Literature: An Introduction to the Writings and Their Social Context (Philadelphia: Temple Univ. Press, 1982), p. xii.


In Britain and France, the word "Oriental" is also used to describe the Arab world, as well as the East Asian one. The terms "Near East" and "Far East" have been frowned upon because these terms are Eurocentric: they mean "near" or "far" in relation to their proximity to Europe. By contrast, "Middle East" means midway between Europe and East Asia.

[eos]

a lady called me and my boyfriend stupid orientals cuz we were in her highness' way at the airport. the funny thing was she spoke with an accent and i said "exCUSE me, stupid bitch" in perfect english. caught HER off guard.

[deez nuts]

a t-shirt that says "oriental flavor?"

i would totally wear one.

[uhhden]

a t-shirt that says "oriental flavor?"

i would totally wear one.

at least it's not one of those shirts that says "everyone loves an asian"

[deez nuts]

at least it's not one of those shirts that says "everyone loves an asian"

hahaha i have one.

[bluemonq]

^ quick, let's play, "come up with an asian-quasi-offending t-shirt!" the best i can do right now is something you'd give to some girl in your high school who slept around a lot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v114/bluemonq/rug.jpg
i'm so going to get flamed for this...and i'll probably deserve it.

[TB4000]

So wrong indeed.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=861&d=1138847824

[uhhden]

hahaha i have one.

lol...how'd i figure

[BeTheReds]

By contrast, "Middle East" means midway between Europe and East Asia.
In relation to Europe, yes.

In relation to East Asia, that'd be the middle west...

So.. I guess nobody wants to offer up a better term... They just want to talk about why Oriental is offensive, which we all already agree that it is.

[deez nuts]

I suppose I'll just have to keep using Asian, but in Japanese and Korean (and I am sure in Chinese too) it's so much easier to say what you mean when referring to us without stepping on anyone's toes.


If we can't use Oriental is there some term which we can use to refer to 東洋人 then?

i assume that's "asian person" in korean? i just see three boxes so i assume it's "asian person" in korean since "asian person" in mandarin is three characters too ;)

i agree. it's exactly what i said earlier awhile back on the topic. but, it then dawned on me that in all likelihood a good size number of asians that are offended by the term "oriental" do not speak their native asian language so saying asian in your asian language is basically pointless. and which one do we use? "asian person" in chinese or korean or japanese?

[SunWuKong]

i assume that's "asian person" in korean? i just see three boxes so i assume it's "asian person" in korean since "asian person" in mandarin is three characters too ;)

that says dong yang ren - as opposed to xi yang ren (西洋人) for westerners.

[deez nuts]

that says dong yang ren - as opposed to xi yang ren (西洋人) for westerners.


thank you, the most chinesiest chinaman on yw.

[SunWuKong]

thank you, the most chinesiest chinaman on yw.

you're welcome.

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/flags/countrys/zzzflags/cnsmall.gif

[deez nuts]

you're welcome.

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/flags/countrys/zzzflags/cnsmall.gif


hey how does bethereds know how to write chinese?

i think i have competition for the title of the second most chinesiest chinaman on yw.

[SunWuKong]

hey how does bethereds know how to write chinese?

i think i have competition for the title of the second most chinesiest chinaman on yw.

he knows how to write in Japanese, so that was kanji.

[deez nuts]

he knows how to write in Japanese, so that was kanji.

wow i can read japanese? how is that possible? :biggrin:

[eos]

i can't do the chinese symbols, but i always heard the phrase "dong fong yun" for asian. that's in cantonese by the way.

[VV o n g B a]

how about "ya zhou ren"?

[deez nuts]

i use ya zhou ren also.

[Craig]

My Chinese pronounciation is bad. So, 'ya zhou ren' ends up coming out as 'ya zi - ren'.