asians being prejudiced to asians?!

[lee duk sun]

hello all. i introduced myself a couple weeks ago, and just wanted to take a quick second to give a brief history so i can go on with my rant. i'm a 30 year old adopted korean who grew up in a white family in the boston area. i'm currently visiting south korea for 4 weeks (1.5 weeks left) because my boyfriend is here for work. while i'm here, i've been seeing the sights and also the places i was left and the adoption agency.

ANYWAY. the rant is this: the asian women, in particular, hate me! they loathe me! they look at me with disgust, treat me like crap, laugh in my face, talk about me in my presence, and are just outright RUDE to me! this happens when i try to do business with them in a market, at a shop, on the subways, at museum exhibits, etc. the only place it doesn't happen is in my hotel or a fancy restaurant, or with my boyfriend's white colleagues and asian colleage.

now, i admit... i don't speak much of the language. i didn't know i was coming until 2 weeks prior to the trip. but it was obviously something i couldn't pass up, and was a little nervous about my not knowing the culture so much. but i've made every attempt to make the compromises you make when you enter a new country. i bow, i know the very basic polite conversational phrases, and try my hardest to look friendly and happy to be here. but the truth is, if it weren't for my determination to keep going out everyday to find something cool and cultural (which i do), it would be horrible, because everywhere i go i am ridiculed.

south korea is a beautiful country, rich with history and technology and amazing scenery. but the people here act like i'm insulting them somehow. i even hide my tattoo so they can't see it, since they think tattoos are a disgrace. i dress more conservative while i'm here, too. but they're all about conformity, brand names, status, and... facial plastic surgery! that's another topic i could go off on... but i already released a lot in my personal journal. but basically, i'd say about 65%+ have had their eyelids creased: men, women, old and very very young. getting your nose heightened and chin defined is also very popular. and maybe they think lowly of me because i haven't done that? i don't know...

but i'm wondering if any of you have experienced this sort of thing before?

growing up i never really 'fit in' to any culture, so i learned to accept myself for my differences and other people and their differences. i think differences are what makes the world so cool. i'm sad to say that i've never been treated so poorly as i am here, in this country i was born in and arranged out of within 6 months. it's common knowledge here that a lot of people were adopted to the west, and even if it wasn't, there's no need for this kind of treatment.

what does anyone think can be done?

oh, and if anyone's interested, i'm keeping my korean journal online at jessicasdream.com/korea

thanks guys.
xOx
sun lee sunbeam!

i forgot to mention that the south koreans are obsessed with the caucasian appearance and just white people in general. my boyfriend is white, and he tells me when he's out on his own, people bend over backwards to help him...

it appears to me that the koreans are ashamed of the way they look and maybe i remind them of what they hate...?

a side note is that many people here think i'm japanese... that might have something to do with the initial awkwardness, but once they discover i'm american it gets worse....

[mr. x]

well, there's all kinds of hangups with being an American, I would suggest saying you are Canadian. Unless you are really really adament about displaying your nationality.

[lee duk sun]

haha, that's a good idea ;-) no, i'm not hung up, but i don't see why i should deserve such attitude, ya know? i don't display my nationality, but making something else up hadn't occurred to me. the first thing they ask is if i'm japanese, and then it's, "oh, american!"

xOx

[rice cracker]

Oh, that sucks. An adoptee friend of mine had a similar experience when she went to SKorea for a visit.

Just roll your eyes at them. Sometimes fighting fire with fire with an ajumma works wonders because it surprises them. If it doesn't work...RUN.

[eos]

is it because you're adopted? like they look down upon people who are adopted because it's like saying there must be something wrong with you that's why you're not with your biological parents?
i'm not trying to be mean or anything, or say that there's something wrong with you, just think it's pretty superficial and stupid if they think that way. i hate when people judge you because of your family.

[ColinB]

I've seen and heard black on black prejudice, Asian on Asian, white on white. I have prejudices. I am prejudiced against. No 'group' or ethnicity can claim to have no prejudiced members.

In answer to your question, yes I have encountered prejudice from my countrymen because I was born and raised overseas. But I have encountered those more who were not prejudiced against me too.

[LaiSteve66]

Man, remind me to apply blond hair dye and blue contacts if I ever go over there.

[jongeh]

Well, I am half Korean and I've experienced some prejudice from Koreans, but I found out that it had a lot more to do with my inability to speak Korean more than anything else ("you don't even speak your native language!" kind of thing).
Also, I have been informed by many Koreans to be careful when I go to Korea because a lot of people just don't like Americans, and they can usually tell if you are one.
I don't know, sorry about your situation, I can relate.

[Chad]

I have no clue about Korea but I find it kind of hard to believe that everybody is instantly ridiculing you as soon as you appear in public. How can you tell they're doing this if you don't speak the language?
How would anybody know she was an adoptee by looking at her? I don't know.. this all sounds weird to me.
65% of people have had plastic surgery? I find this unbelievable. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any way that could be accurate. What's going on here?

[returntosender]

on oprah they said it was 75%.

and oprah NEVER endorses false news...

[lee duk sun]

I have no clue about Korea but I find it kind of hard to believe that everybody is instantly ridiculing you as soon as you appear in public. How can you tell they're doing this if you don't speak the language?
How would anybody know she was an adoptee by looking at her? I don't know.. this all sounds weird to me.
65% of people have had plastic surgery? I find this unbelievable. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any way that could be accurate. What's going on here?

i know, i'm just as shocked as you. if anyone told me this before i came here, i would NOT believe them! but i promise that i speak the truth here. it's disgusting...

people don't know i'm adopted by looking at me, but they know that i'm 'not one of them'. we dress differently, our hair is different, our faces ARE different (i only believe in corretive cosmetic surgery), we wear our make up differently, our shoes are different, and so on.

it really sucks... xOx

How can you tell they're doing this if you don't speak the language?

body language, pointing, laughing, gestures, facial expressions... and my boyfriend's korean coworker's help. xOx

Well, I am half Korean and I've experienced some prejudice from Koreans, but I found out that it had a lot more to do with my inability to speak Korean more than anything else ("you don't even speak your native language!" kind of thing).
Also, I have been informed by many Koreans to be careful when I go to Korea because a lot of people just don't like Americans, and they can usually tell if you are one.
I don't know, sorry about your situation, I can relate.

thanks. and i thought it had to do with the language thing, but i DO speak some of the language just from being here 3 weeks and my 2 week crash course. (i didn't know i was going to come until then.) and i think it's insulting for them to think this IS my native language. they don't know my side... until recently, i always felt like this country threw me out, ya know? why would i learn this language? i didn't know any koreans to speak it with... it's all just ignorance, and that's what's such a shame. they're so advanced in so many other ways... but socially, individuality, and emotionally, they seem to be infants in their culture.

is it because you're adopted? like they look down upon people who are adopted because it's like saying there must be something wrong with you that's why you're not with your biological parents?
i'm not trying to be mean or anything, or say that there's something wrong with you, just think it's pretty superficial and stupid if they think that way. i hate when people judge you because of your family.

yeah, that crossed my mind, as well... xOx

[Chu Chi]

what does anyone think can be done?




Why don't you ask them?

Next time you witness one of these "events", just ask the participants if there is any problem?

AND,

How can WE solve it.

AND,

I'd also like to suggest Mr White boyfriend step up to the plate and help you solve this problem.


CC

[Chad]

Mrs Sunbeam,
I think I may have figured out what's going on. The people who are laughing at you are amused by the presence of a goofy foreigner. It's kind of like when those white people in America laugh and make jokes about other people who come from "backwards" countries. Also contributing to this confusion: you're an Asian American and not a native Asian. I'm also an Asian American. I've lived in America for most of my life. I went to school here, learned American customs and language. When I go to Asian countries, like Singapore or Malaysia, it is obvious to locals that I am a foreigner because of my different style of speech and dress and my unfamiliarity with the more subtle mannerisms and habits of the natives. Would it be more accurate for you to call yourself an "Asian American"?
-Chad

[Funky_Cactus]

To be blunt, you're there to have fun, not please people. Also, I'm afraid you're exaggerating about the plastic surgery rates. Pale skin, large eyes and sharp features are not only features of whites. It's the ideal beauty which can be connected to the past, not mere adoration of Western culture.

[Paradox]

To be blunt, you're there to have fun, not please people. Also, I'm afraid you're exaggerating about the plastic surgery rates. Pale skin, large eyes and sharp features are not only features of whites. It's the ideal beauty which can be connected to the past, not mere adoration of Western culture.
I get somewhat irritated when people say that cosmetic surgery and skin whiteners is an effort to look like a caucasian person. On the contrary I think the opposite is true. Caucasian people tend to have bigger noses, more pronounced chins, and wider facial features. If you look at the surgery being done in asian countries it's just defining the nose/eyes according to ASIAN beauty standards such as narrow "cute" noses, softer chins, and getting rid of double eyelid folds or whatever. Even white skin is something that is traditionally thought of as an asian beauty standard long before westernization ever entered into the equation. It's similar to victorian prejudices, people with super pale complexions were the "upper" class who could afford to sit indoors all day. People with dark complexions were the common laborers and farmer types.

Also, the opposite tends to be true in western society today. Dark skin and tans are still very trendy. Everytime I go to the beaches here it's always westerners doing sunbathing (some topless ;)) here. If Asians were trying to be more like caucasians then wouldn't they be bandwagon hopping onto the tan/dark skin trend too? The whole stereotype is a bit contradictive.

[Funky_Cactus]

I get somewhat irritated when people say that cosmetic surgery and skin whiteners is an effort to look like a caucasian person. On the contrary I think the opposite is true. Caucasian people tend to have bigger noses, more pronounced chins, and wider facial features. If you look at the surgery being done in asian countries it's just defining the nose/eyes according to ASIAN beauty standards such as narrow "cute" noses, softer chins, and getting rid of double eyelid folds or whatever. Even white skin is something that is traditionally thought of as an asian beauty standard long before westernization ever entered into the equation. It's similar to victorian prejudices, people with super pale complexions were the "upper" class who could afford to sit indoors all day. People with dark complexions were the common laborers and farmer types.

Also, the opposite tends to be true in western society today. Dark skin and tans are still very trendy. Everytime I go to the beaches here it's always westerners doing sunbathing (some topless ;)) here. If Asians were trying to be more like caucasians then wouldn't they be bandwagon hopping onto the tan/dark skin trend too? The whole stereotype is a bit contradictive.

Indeed. Also, if I am not mistaken, Historians discovered a cream mixture used by the Ancient Roman women, which, when applied, lightens their skin colour. If Caucasians themselves used the lightening creams, then why not Asians?

Exactly, the whole belief of Asians adoring Western culture, though it is not incorrect, is overexaggerated. When people say that, it makes me wonder if they are only thinking from a Westerner's perspective.

[Chu Chi]

. Everytime I go to the beaches here it's always westerners doing sunbathing (some topless ;)) here. If Asians were trying to be more like caucasians then wouldn't they be bandwagon hopping onto the tan/dark skin trend too? The whole stereotype is a bit contradictive.

Follow the logic:

When White people tan, is it in order to FUNCTION as a non-white person?

If so, WHY?

When non-white people lighten their skin is it an attempt to FUNCTION as a White person?

If so WHY?


CC

[lee duk sun]

To be blunt, you're there to have fun, not please people. Also, I'm afraid you're exaggerating about the plastic surgery rates. Pale skin, large eyes and sharp features are not only features of whites. It's the ideal beauty which can be connected to the past, not mere adoration of Western culture.

have you ever been to south korea? do you know how many babies are born without creases above their eyes, and how many children and adults you will see who HAVE them? i went to lotte world today and easily 90% of people over the age of 14 on the trains, streets, and parks, had creases put in at the very least. i'm not talking about skin whiteners... that's somebody else's comment, perhaps. what i see are the eye surgeries the most. it's not the large eyes... it's the creases! this isn't even my rant... my rant is about the unfair treatment. but i mentioned all the surgeries as an aside. even on the train, by the subway map, there are ads for plastic surgery offices in prime position.

i'm actually here to learn about where i'm from more than have fun, and that's pretty much what i'm doing. i do find the country and some of the history fascinating, and it's definitely making equal impacts in terms of positives and negatives.

but yeah... come to south korea. the creases over the eyes thing is no secret. you'll see for yourself... i just feel badly about that because growing up, i always wanted them, too, and now i'm glad it wasn't something i could do or even knew about. when i look in the mirror i don't necessarily always like what i see, but at least i see 'me'...

xOx

Indeed. Also, if I am not mistaken, Historians discovered a cream mixture used by the Ancient Roman women, which, when applied, lightens their skin colour. If Caucasians themselves used the lightening creams, then why not Asians?

Exactly, the whole belief of Asians adoring Western culture, though it is not incorrect, is overexaggerated. When people say that, it makes me wonder if they are only thinking from a Westerner's perspective.

hey there. i'm jumping in on your comment. being here, i've tried to buy some korean clothes to bring back... and ya know what? i can't find any that aren't the traditional korean costumes for holidays. everybody wears western clothing and brands. it's just their thing. and their music is exactly the same as american pop, sadly enough, except with korean words. people on dating shows mimic the backstreet boys and shit! but i'm not faulting them for this. my reason is because they have progressed so quickly in so many ways, and i know it's just their way of sorting through what it's like to have these options. i'm sure in another 5 years they'll be past some of that... but i wonder what will be the reprecussions?

what i DO get pissed about is the way they're treating ME... and yes, that IS from a westerner's perspective, and also witnessed from some koreans that i know from second degree...

i'm just figuring out that it is what it is and people will do what they do, anywhere in the world... xOx

Mrs Sunbeam,
I think I may have figured out what's going on. The people who are laughing at you are amused by the presence of a goofy foreigner. It's kind of like when those white people in America laugh and make jokes about other people who come from "backwards" countries. Also contributing to this confusion: you're an Asian American and not a native Asian. I'm also an Asian American. I've lived in America for most of my life. I went to school here, learned American customs and language. When I go to Asian countries, like Singapore or Malaysia, it is obvious to locals that I am a foreigner because of my different style of speech and dress and my unfamiliarity with the more subtle mannerisms and habits of the natives. Would it be more accurate for you to call yourself an "Asian American"?
-Chad

well chad, i'm still figuring out what to call myself. i used to call myself an asian american. and then i came back to korea and my story got more complex. it has always been said to me that i was half-japanese, which i am fine with if it's true, but i just can't find out. and i'm getting okay with that now, too, even though it's only been a couple of weeks since i've known it's a greater possibility than i'd thought. in fact, my entire story has changed, in terms of how i was even found as a newborn.

in terms of them laughing at me, i would like to think they just find me a 'goofy foreigner', but in reality, it seems a lot more harsh than that. i guess it's hard to explain because words fail. but i suppose it's more obvious when they're shoving things in my face (such as clothing items), yelling louder when i tell them in korean that i don't understand–and even attempt to tell them i was adopted, and when they make disgusting faces at me when i finish speaking.

i think the truth is that i came here to find more of myself HERE, and instead i found more of myself INSIDE, which ain't all that bad i guess. but it's still hard to take prejudice and see how much you DON'T fit into the place where you're supposedly from...

Why don't you ask them?

Next time you witness one of these "events", just ask the participants if there is any problem?

AND,

How can WE solve it.

AND,

I'd also like to suggest Mr White boyfriend step up to the plate and help you solve this problem.
CC

hey chu chi. in regards to "mr. white boyfriend", he's not with me when i receive this prejudice. he's working. in fact, they treat me a lot nicer when i'm with him and his coworkers, believe it or not. i expected the opposite. and when i've brought the topic up to him, he acknowledges it but what can he do? their problem is with me and it's something i need to just accept, i guess.

i'd like to be able to just ask them a simple question as to how to resolve their prejudice, but my korean is still lacking, due to my not knowing i was coming here until 2 weeks prior, and the fact that i resisted it for years since i felt thrown out of this country in a way. and in a way, i sort of was. what i CAN speak, they seem to answer so quickly and refuse to slow down when i ask them to. i'm also aware that this sort of ignorance happens in america and other parts of the world, too, but i doubt on this scale that i've been receiving it.

and one last thing–yes, my boyfriend is white. it just so happens to be the case. i was adopted into a white family in a 98% white area. i have been open to all different races once i moved on from that town, but he's who i am with now. and no, i haven't dated an asian man, but as i've explained on another board here in yellowworld, it's mostly because they haven't been available or the least bit interested in ME.

but thanks for your advice, anyway. xOx

I get somewhat irritated when people say that cosmetic surgery and skin whiteners is an effort to look like a caucasian person. On the contrary I think the opposite is true. Caucasian people tend to have bigger noses, more pronounced chins, and wider facial features. If you look at the surgery being done in asian countries it's just defining the nose/eyes according to ASIAN beauty standards such as narrow "cute" noses, softer chins, and getting rid of double eyelid folds or whatever. Even white skin is something that is traditionally thought of as an asian beauty standard long before westernization ever entered into the equation. It's similar to victorian prejudices, people with super pale complexions were the "upper" class who could afford to sit indoors all day. People with dark complexions were the common laborers and farmer types.

Also, the opposite tends to be true in western society today. Dark skin and tans are still very trendy. Everytime I go to the beaches here it's always westerners doing sunbathing (some topless ;)) here. If Asians were trying to be more like caucasians then wouldn't they be bandwagon hopping onto the tan/dark skin trend too? The whole stereotype is a bit contradictive.

hey paradox. it does seem that the stereotypes are contradictive, because they do seem to cross-over like that. it's strange. but for some reason, westerners want to look tanned because it makes them feel slimmer and healthier and sometimes even wealthier in the cost winter months, as if they were on vacation. (vain, i know. but my own family and friends have admitted to this.) and for the asians, it seems their ideals are that of westerners in their more natural look, with whiter skin, narrower noses, and creased (more opened) eyes. this is what i've witnessed and read in periodicals such as 'time asia' and such.

i do find it interesting that people are talking more about the side mention of the plastic surgery here rather than their negative attitudes towards returning asians who were never able to feel a part of their country...

xOx

[VV o n g B a]

i do find it interesting that people are talking more about the side mention of the plastic surgery here rather than their negative attitudes towards returning asians who were never able to feel a part of their country...

xOxthis is prolly not an atypical reaction for someone who hasn't been to asian american forums before. the ppl on this board have discussed this issue and others (often to death) relating to how there's a perceived image of asians striving to be white. a lot of us think it's not as simple as wanting to be white b/c of various historical and political reasons. when u mention those issues off-hand like they're settled issues, u strike a nerve.

as for ur main issue, i'm sorry about ur situation. my feelings when i went back to taiwan and china were very different. i'd prolly be as frustrated as u are in ur situation and there doesn't seem to be a quick easy solution. i hope the rest of ur visit is more positive...

[Napoleon Chynamite]

To be blunt, you're there to have fun, not please people. Also, I'm afraid you're exaggerating about the plastic surgery rates. Pale skin, large eyes and sharp features are not only features of whites. It's the ideal beauty which can be connected to the past, not mere adoration of Western culture.

Actually traditionally sharp features may have been valued in men but at least for women, the ideal of beauty has always been a face of softer proportions. The ideal weight for women was also a lot higher back in the day, but that's another issue. Studies (if they can be called studies) have even shown that women prefer a softer, more feminine face in a male in comparison to the super-masculine square-jawed phenotype. A look at past historical depictions of beauty via paintings or other types of old-time media will reveal the above.

[grimfan]

blacks have bigger eyes than whites. so when Asians want bigger eyes, they're actually trying to be black.

whites do not have the perfect nose, which is why rhinoplasties are so popular in America.

western media loves to report how Asian women "worship" white stars like david beckham or leonardi dicaprio. however, they fail to mention how the same kind of fanatical treatment is equally applied to asian stars. i've heard stories of asian girls getting into gang wars over asian boy bands.

[Chad]

well chad, i'm still figuring out what to call myself. i used to call myself an asian american. and then i came back to korea and my story got more complex. it has always been said to me that i was half-japanese, which i am fine with if it's true, but i just can't find out. and i'm getting okay with that now, too, even though it's only been a couple of weeks since i've known it's a greater possibility than i'd thought. in fact, my entire story has changed, in terms of how i was even found as a newborn.

Are Japanese not Asian? Is a Japanese American not an Asian American?

by the way, there are also some websites devoted specifically to Korean adoptees and other adoptees which you may find interesting:
http://www.adopteesolidarity.org/
http://www.transracialabductees.org/
And there have been several good threads about adoption:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=12343

[tapestrybabe]

by the way, there are also some websites devoted specifically to Korean adoptees and other adoptees which you may find interesting:
http://www.adopteesolidarity.org/

yes, yes... i know about them...
i really like them and their focus...
i actually own the organizations tshirt...
i bought it when i was in korea...
over a year ago...


http://www.transracialabductees.org/

i know about this too...
altho i'm not too fond of that site...
i mean yes, while i acknowlege the obstacles
adoptees may have to go thru...
while they may bring up VEry
important, critical issues...
how long can one stay angry for being adopted tho??
seriously... i dont find it all too empowering...
i dont gain any sense of
inner strength, self confidence...
by just merely ranting...

as for the topic of this thread itself...
my experience had been very different when i
visited korea- i miss my experience
of korea very much, i felt very much a part of it...
and i long to wanna visit again...
but i dont wanna take away what the
origional poster and many others
may have felt returning back tho...

i just know that...
i acknowledge my own prejudice
i had against asians...
at least while growing up...
i mean, i know i didnt want
anything to do with them...
like i viewed them as different...
refusing to wanna associate with them...
but my attitude has changed...
due to my own heightened awareness of myself...

[lee duk sun]

Are Japanese not Asian? Is a Japanese American not an Asian American?

by the way, there are also some websites devoted specifically to Korean adoptees and other adoptees which you may find interesting:
http://www.adopteesolidarity.org/
http://www.transracialabductees.org/
And there have been several good threads about adoption:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=12343

heh. i was pretty tired when i got back last night and typed all these replies. of course japanese are asians and japanese americans are asian american. i just feel like instead of calling myself asian american, american, korean, japanese-korean-american or alien, for &%$#s sake... maybe instead i'll just call myself a person, an individual. because clearly, as much as i'm learning about my past (or gaining greater confusion), i will never really be in ONE group of anything, even if it's a group of grouped races.

that said, i'm still going to learn korean when i go home, and maybe even learn japanese after that. but that's just so if i decide to come back, or ever decide to have kids and come back, that i/we will at least understand what people are saying better.

thanks for the links.
slsb


i mean yes, while i acknowlege the obstacles
adoptees may have to go thru...
while they may bring up VEry
important, critical issues...
how long can one stay angry for being adopted tho??
seriously... i dont find it all too empowering...
i dont gain any sense of
inner strength, self confidence...
by just merely ranting...

as for the topic of this thread itself...
my experience had been very different when i
visited korea- i miss my experience
of korea very much, i felt very much a part of it...
and i long to wanna visit again...
but i dont wanna take away what the
origional poster and many others
may have felt returning back tho...

i just know that...
i acknowledge my own prejudice
i had against asians...
at least while growing up...
i mean, i know i didnt want
anything to do with them...
like i viewed them as different...
refusing to wanna associate with them...
but my attitude has changed...
due to my own heightened awareness of myself...

i agree about the anger. i don't see any desire to fuel my frustrations with adoption, or even continue a crusade against how i've been treated here. i do want to further explore these emotions though, when i get back home, when i pick up a paint brush or my poor neglected electric guitar... in a much healthier and enjoyable way.

when you came back to korea, who did you come with? were you on a tour with a guide, family, friends, or alone? either way, i'm glad you didn't go through what i've been dealing with. it shouldn't make a difference which company you're in when visiting. it's unfortunate. last night at lotte world i noticed more curiosity towards my bf rather than ridicule of me. it was a nice break, although it made me feel somewhat invisible. that's not fun either, but i actually welcomed it at this point.

through all these experiences, good and bad, i've also got a heightened awareness of myself... but myself on my own rather as part of anything else.

sun lee sunbeam

[BeTheReds]

For your information, only 12% of Korean women have had cosmetic surgery of some sort. (according to the last census taken in Korea)

On topic... I've never been in any situation where I felt discriminated against in Korea, but neither have I felt that people were bending over backward for me. In your situation, you have to realize, that for people in Asia, they don't understand the concept of race being seperate from nationality. Blood is all that matters, and so if you look a certain way but can't act as someone who looks that way should(in their mind), it might bother some. I know it's probably very frustrating, but multiculturalism is still a relatively new thing to South Korea.

[lee duk sun]

For your information, only 12% of Korean women have had cosmetic surgery of some sort. (according to the last census taken in Korea)

On topic... I've never been in any situation where I felt discriminated against in Korea, but neither have I felt that people were bending over backward for me. In your situation, you have to realize, that for people in Asia, they don't understand the concept of race being seperate from nationality. Blood is all that matters, and so if you look a certain way but can't act as someone who looks that way should(in their mind), it might bother some. I know it's probably very frustrating, but multiculturalism is still a relatively new thing to South Korea.

there's no way in hell it's only 12%... unless 50% of the country is hiding indoors all day. the polls must be wrong. i've also read that people who have plastic surgery on their faces here are somewhat ashamed and even though it's obvious they weren't born with the creases. articles say they're burning or shredding old photos. all i have to say is come on over and hop on any subway and walk around, and you'll see for yourself. especially considering that 95% of korea is pure korean, accordingly to their travel spokesperson who led my tour one day. i'd accept maybe 5% of them could possibly be anomalies in their heritage, (as i also have some physical features that are odd for my phsyical heritage), but the rest... ? no way, man.

and on that topic, i'll also add that to say they're doing it to look white is wrong, if i said something on those lines. western is the term i should be using. and western encompasses a broad amount of looks, considering that the US itself is comprised of various nationalities outside of just 'white'. i took some photos on the train today of ads for a cologne that had two men on one, competing for another girl. and the one who wore the advertised cologne got... who? a white girl. strange, isn't it?

but in regards to the comment on multiculturalism being new in south korea, i agree, along with most of that paragraph. i still think it's wrong, just like it would be anywhere else, to be so outwardly prejudiced and demeaning to people like myself. i guess they have some catching up to do when it comes to that mentality. i wish i had waited until then to visit, had i known how it would be. in fact, today i thought about advancing my ticket home because i'm getting so sick of it all... but i think it'll cost me too much in the long run, so i guess i'll just have to stick it out 1 more week...

sun lee sunbeam

[BeTheReds]

there's no way in hell it's only 12%... unless 50% of the country is hiding indoors all day. the polls must be wrong. i've also read that people who have plastic surgery on their faces here are somewhat ashamed and even though it's obvious they weren't born with the creases. articles say they're burning or shredding old photos. all i have to say is come on over and hop on any subway and walk around, and you'll see for yourself. especially considering that 95% of korea is pure korean, accordingly to their travel spokesperson who led my tour one day. i'd accept maybe 5% of them could possibly be anomalies in their heritage, (as i also have some physical features that are odd for my phsyical heritage), but the rest... ? no way, man.

In 2000 it was 12% Barring some kind of outbreak where from 2000 until 2006 50% of the female population got plastic surgery for the first time, I see no reason why 60% or anywhere near that could get it. In fact, the rate of plastic surgery is slightly higher in Japan, and to save money, many go to Korea to get the work done. This further increases the notion that Korea is scalpel happy, because of the number of procedures that take place.. However, nobody is taking into account who is getting the procedure.

and on that topic, i'll also add that to say they're doing it to look white is wrong, if i said something on those lines. western is the term i should be using.
It sounds to me like you still mean white, but regardless what you mean, you're wrong. People who get plastic surgery do so in order to conform to an ideal asian beauty standard, in which bigger eyes are considered more beautiful. Large eyes do come naturally among Asians, and this was considered beautiful before Westerners had ever set foot in Asia. They aren't trying to look foreign by getting sangapul work done.

i took some photos on the train today of ads for a cologne that had two men on one, competing for another girl. and the one who wore the advertised cologne got... who? a white girl. strange, isn't it?

It's an ad that's supposed to appeal to the target audience, Korean men. You can only expect that the media would treat its audience favorably. Why is that strange? I would only think it was strange if the American media produced such an advertisment.

but in regards to the comment on multiculturalism being new in south korea, i agree, along with most of that paragraph. i still think it's wrong, just like it would be anywhere else, to be so outwardly prejudiced and demeaning to people like myself. i guess they have some catching up to do when it comes to that mentality.
While that may be true, you might also have some catching up to do, no?


i wish i had waited until then to visit, had i known how it would be. in fact, today i thought about advancing my ticket home because i'm getting so sick of it all... but i think it'll cost me too much in the long run, so i guess i'll just have to stick it out 1 more week...

sun lee sunbeam


So much negativity.. Be optimistic.

[SunWuKong]

there's no way in hell it's only 12%... unless 50% of the country is hiding indoors all day. the polls must be wrong.

i don't know if you're just going by what you personally see around you, but if you are in the cities and urban areas, maybe you're more likely to see women with plastic surgery? i've never been to South Korea, so i'm just taking a wild guess.

[lee duk sun]

i don't know if you're just going by what you personally see around you, but if you are in the cities and urban areas, maybe you're more likely to see women with plastic surgery? i've never been to South Korea, so i'm just taking a wild guess.

perhaps that is the case. i am in the main and surrounding cities...

In 2000 it was 12% Barring some kind of outbreak where from 2000 until 2006 50% of the female population got plastic surgery for the first time, I see no reason why 60% or anywhere near that could get it. In fact, the rate of plastic surgery is slightly higher in Japan, and to save money, many go to Korea to get the work done. This further increases the notion that Korea is scalpel happy, because of the number of procedures that take place.. However, nobody is taking into account who is getting the procedure.

i think sunwukong touched on the answer here. i've only been visiting around the seoul and daegu city areas. my percentage is based on those areas alone. perhaps it's different in the other areas.

It's an ad that's supposed to appeal to the target audience, Korean men. You can only expect that the media would treat its audience favorably. Why is that strange? I would only think it was strange if the American media produced such an advertisment.

why should the average korean man's ideal be a white western woman? and if that's the case, wouldn't it mean asian women would be either offended, or want to look more like her?

While that may be true, you might also have some catching up to do, no?

i'm not really sure what you're referencing here... it's 2AM and i can't find it easily scrolling back. but, i've got to say–yeah, there are of course things for me to learn. i hope that's true for everyone, because the world keeps changing. more on point, i admit that it's a new thing for me to want to know more about the culture because i always felt rejected from it. however, to me life is all about finding that perfect balance. education is important, but i'm not exactly going to spend more time than i feel is necessarily to know everything about the korean culture and the mentality of all the people in it, or from it. i've got other things to worry about, too...

So much negativity.. Be optimistic.

well, i came here optimistic and sadly i'll be leaving here more bitter and negative, based on my own personal experiences here. i realized today that the way i've been treated is making me less enthusiastic about embracing the culture. walking around, i could feel myself folding in. and it's sad and unfortunate, but i don't feel defeated. i got some good experience as well because i sought it out... but overall, it is clear that the koreans aren't very welcoming to ME, and it just makes me feel like less a part of them. take that for what it is, but know that i've put forth every effort possible within my timeframe. maybe someday i'll come back and it'll be different because they've changed, or i've learned to speak the language a lot better... or maybe i'll go back and never have the desire to return again.

and one last comment is that i want to clarify that i never spoke of asians whitening their skin. i have very fair skin that's lighter than some of the caucasian people i know and see. big deal.

[Funky_Cactus]

have you ever been to south korea? do you know how many babies are born without creases above their eyes, and how many children and adults you will see who HAVE them? i went to lotte world today and easily 90% of people over the age of 14 on the trains, streets, and parks, had creases put in at the very least. i'm not talking about skin whiteners... that's somebody else's comment, perhaps. what i see are the eye surgeries the most. it's not the large eyes... it's the creases! this isn't even my rant... my rant is about the unfair treatment. but i mentioned all the surgeries as an aside. even on the train, by the subway map, there are ads for plastic surgery offices in prime position.


THe rate for plastic surgery is higher for the US and Japan than in Korea. If you're correct and 65% of Koreans have had plastic surgery, then the percent rate for Americans and Japanese would be nearly 100%, which it obviously isn't. Yes, I have been to Korea, or else I wouldn't be spouting my mouth off. Haven't you ever heard of baby fat? The creases are there due to the lack of fat in the eye area. As the person ages, fat disappears and the creases appear, which is currently happening to me. Koreans are not as idiotic as to perform surgery on a mere child, like you've suggested in your paragraph. Then tell me, how many babies are born without creases? Because it seems like you're studying the population instead of the culture if you have seen all the babies in Korea. I know that this isn't the purpose of your rant, but get your facts straight. I see advertisements for surgery, acne treatment, and teeth straightening in New York, but I'm not going to accuse all or most New Yorkers of having crooked teeth, bad skin, and ugly features.

Please go out, explore and learn about your native country. Try to enjoy as much as possible without having some sort of bias. It's hard, especially when they look and treat you like you're a mutant, I know since they treated me like I'm some disabled moron, but Korea is a beautiful country, and don't let the ignorant ones ruin the experience.

[SunWuKong]

i think sunwukong touched on the answer here. i've only been visiting around the seoul and daegu city areas. my percentage is based on those areas alone. perhaps it's different in the other areas.

again, i've never been to South Korea - but i wanted to ask, so you're basically looking at women face-to-face and thinking that they must have had plastic surgery?

In 2000 it was 12%

do you happen to have a link to these stats online? i'm wondering if the number came from the number of procedures done, because one woman can have multiple surgeries, and i'm also wondering if the number is only for plastic surgery for beautification purposes, and not reconstructive surgery to fix permanent scars and such.

[tapestrybabe]

when you came back to korea, who did you come with? were you on a tour with a guide, family, friends, or alone?

in 2004 theres was a worldwide
korean adoptee gathering that took
place in seoul... korean adoptees
from the united states, denmark, sweden,
russia, france, australia, etc, attended...
it was a gathering to mark the 50th
anniversary of koreans being adopted...
they have mini gatherings here in the united states...
that take place every year or so...
but i rarely take an interest in partipating those...
but the fact that this one was taking place
in korea... was my main motivation for attending...

i also knew this personal friend who lives there...
and this korean family i know in the united states...
has extended family living in korea, in whom i got to meet...
during my time there as well...

so yeah, i attended with a group of ppl...
to attend the conference...
i also participated in a tour thing...
and went there knowing
a personal friend and family members...

and may i comment...
i think knowing a personal friend made all the difference to me...
ya know with the language barrier, often times...
it got difficult to communicate...
it tended to make me feel isolated...
and who else could i turn to than those who
spoke english... which were the other adoptees there...
but there were SO MANy there at the conference...
OVer 400... and there had been a lot of ppl
on the tour guide thing too...
which made it difficult for me to really connect
with anybody...

but my last week there staying with a personal friend
made all the difference to me...
she spoke english and korean...
i enjoyed having her take me out into town,
meeting her family...
and than her mom's sister, and her family...
who lived on some type of farm...
i enjoyed meeting them too...
and learning about their way of life...
and theres more i want to see, explore and experience still...

and well, being back in the united states...
its nice to see this particular grandmother i met in korea...
visiting the u.s... like it tends to make me
feel a connection between here and there...

sorry to hear about your experiences...
i guess it can be hard to feel kinda...
rejected by so called your own ppl...
but i agree with funky_cactus...
dont let those ignorant, ruin your experience
exploring your native country...

[lee duk sun]

again, i've never been to South Korea - but i wanted to ask, so you're basically looking at women face-to-face and thinking that they must have had plastic surgery?


yes. but let me explain a little further, so you can understand how i could do such a thing. first of all, plastic surgery ads are hard to miss on the subways. around the city, children don't look like either of their parents, as they don't have double-lids (unless they're in their early teens or older) and both parents do. many young girls' eyelids are red and puffy right at the double-crease area when they wait on you in restaurants or as you walk by you can tell. and lastly, it's something that i've heard 2nd hand from a korean man who himself has also had the surgery. i also stated way way earlier that i can't testify to the noses and chins, but it's the eyelids that are clearly not korean eyes, unless they were of mixed racial decent, which we know is not the case.

[Funky_Cactus]

How many Koreans have you encountered throughout your lifetime, may I ask? I know many Koreans with natural double eyelids, and they do not have mixed racial descent. It's a little odd to think that Koreans cannot have double eyelids while it's perfectly normal for Chinese and Japanese to have them.

[didu]

in 2004 theres was a worldwide
korean adoptee gathering that took
place in seoul... korean adoptees
from the united states, denmark, sweden,
russia, france, australia, etc, attended...
it was a gathering to mark the 50th
anniversary of koreans being adopted...
they have mini gatherings here in the united states...
that take place every year or so...
but i rarely take an interest in partipating those...
but the fact that this one was taking place
in korea... was my main motivation for attending...

i also knew this personal friend who lives there...
and this korean family i know in the united states...
has extended family living in korea, in whom i got to meet...
during my time there as well...

so yeah, i attended with a group of ppl...
to attend the conference...
i also participated in a tour thing...
and went there knowing
a personal friend and family members...

and may i comment...
i think knowing a personal friend made all the difference to me...
ya know with the language barrier, often times...
it got difficult to communicate...
it tended to make me feel isolated...
and who else could i turn to than those who
spoke english... which were the other adoptees there...
but there were SO MANy there at the conference...
OVer 400... and there had been a lot of ppl
on the tour guide thing too...
which made it difficult for me to really connect
with anybody...

but my last week there staying with a personal friend
made all the difference to me...
she spoke english and korean...
i enjoyed having her take me out into town,
meeting her family...
and than her mom's sister, and her family...
who lived on some type of farm...
i enjoyed meeting them too...
and learning about their way of life...
and theres more i want to see, explore and experience still...

and well, being back in the united states...
its nice to see this particular grandmother i met in korea...
visiting the u.s... like it tends to make me
feel a connection between here and there...

sorry to hear about your experiences...
i guess it can be hard to feel kinda...
rejected by so called your own ppl...
but i agree with funky_cactus...
dont let those ignorant, ruin your experience
exploring your native country...

Say, tapestrybabe, are you trying to write every single post as if it's
a poem? I'm a bit curious about how you decide to break your lines ...

[lee duk sun]

How many Koreans have you encountered throughout your lifetime, may I ask? I know many Koreans with natural double eyelids, and they do not have mixed racial descent. It's a little odd to think that Koreans cannot have double eyelids while it's perfectly normal for Chinese and Japanese to have them.

well, i'm going on sources such as these:
Approximately 75 percent of all Koreans and 50 percent of all other Asians are born without the double eyelid crease.
hcs.harvard.edu/~aawa/bodyimage.doc or http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:D3kwt7lZgmEJ:hcs.harvard.edu/~aawa/bodyimage.doc+koreans+born+with+natural+double+lid s&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5 for the html version.

it just doesn't seem to be as common of a korean trait as it is with the mostly western chinese. i don't know about japan. i'm in south korea right now, and that's what i'm talking about. plus, a lot of these creases don't really look too natural, either.

in 2004 theres was a worldwide
korean adoptee gathering that took
place in seoul...

sorry to hear about your experiences...
i guess it can be hard to feel kinda...
rejected by so called your own ppl...
but i agree with funky_cactus...
dont let those ignorant, ruin your experience
exploring your native country...

i just learned about "the gathering". that definitely sounds like a nicer way to experience your heritage. and i'm trying not to let it ruin my experiences completely, but this is the 4th week now and it's getting kind of tiring... xOx

[Funky_Cactus]

well, i'm going on sources such as these:
Approximately 75 percent of all Koreans and 50 percent of all other Asians are born without the double eyelid crease.
[website] for the html version.

it just doesn't seem to be as common of a korean trait as it is with the mostly western chinese. i don't know about japan. i'm in south korea right now, and that's what i'm talking about. plus, a lot of these creases don't really look too natural, either.


I'm sorry but one source does not cut it. If you are correct and only 50% of other Asians have double eyelids, then Japan's rate for plastic surgery should be alarmingly high, considering that it's plastic surgery rates are higher than Korea's, which you think is 65%.

Tell me, what are Korean traits? You've been in Korea for 4 weeks and you haven't told me the amount of Koreans you've encountered in the states, so I'd like to know what your opinion is.

How would you know what natural creases look like? You're obviously comparing them to Westerner's, whose facial structures are different, since you said that you don't have them yourself. If this is out of line, I'm sorry, but I think you're passing off your own assumptions, as well as the handful of sources, as facts.

65%? Please don't be silly. That is a ridiculously high number, and it's almost as bad as the trolls I've encountered in other forums.

[lee duk sun]

I'm sorry but one source does not cut it. If you are correct and only 50% of other Asians have double eyelids, then Japan's rate for plastic surgery should be alarmingly high, considering that it's plastic surgery rates are higher than Korea's, which you think is 65%.

Tell me, what are Korean traits? You've been in Korea for 4 weeks and you haven't told me the amount of Koreans you've encountered in the states, so I'd like to know what your opinion is.

How would you know what natural creases look like? You're obviously comparing them to Westerner's, whose facial structures are different, since you said that you don't have them yourself. If this is out of line, I'm sorry, but I think you're passing off your own assumptions, as well as the handful of sources, as facts.

65%? Please don't be silly. That is a ridiculously high number, and it's almost as bad as the trolls I've encountered in other forums.

yo, prickly one. first off, i said that 65% of the people in the cities that i encounter appear to me to have had their eyelids done. i didn't say that's a fact, and i'm not quoting the harvard article as factual, but as a source as to how i formed my opinion. i have no idea how many exact koreans i've encountered in the states. i can tell you when i went to holt's adoption camp at age 12 about 0% i saw there had creases.

in terms of how many koreans i've seen in america, i couldn't tell you, because even though i am asian, i have a hard time knowing for sure who is korean, who is japanese, etc., and i'm not about to take a survey as i walk around in boston or anywhere else for that matter. it's rude. and furthermore, i'd probably get kicked in the ass! but of all the ones i THINK are korean, i'd say about maybe 2% have had creases.

when i say they don't look natural, i'm saying that as my opinion. to me, they just don't look natural. i guess it's kinda like when guys guess that about girls' breasts or something ;-) i admitted that for some i could be wrong, but that doesn't make up for the rest of the percentage i see. i don't know what else to tell ya. and i base that off who i've seen in both america and korea. plus, a lot of the young girls i've seen have very red and puffy creases, so that appears to me that they've just been done.

but whatever, man. this subject is getting passé. i don't really need to prove to people what i see here for myself. if you want to know, come see for yourself and ask around. i just think it's depressing is all.

slsb

[Funky_Cactus]

Then I think it is best that you do not pass off your opinions as fact. If everyone in the world went by their observations, then the world would be a much more ignorant place. I've already went and have seen for myself, and my experience has never been "65% of Koreans have plastic surgery."

[lee duk sun]

Then I think it is best that you do not pass off your opinions as fact. If everyone in the world went by their observations, then the world would be a much more ignorant place. I've already went and have seen for myself, and my experience has never been "65% of Koreans have plastic surgery."

i guess we were in different areas then... when did you come here? and where did you go?

also, i didn't pass my opinions off as fact. is is you who interpreted them as fact.

[SunWuKong]

Then I think it is best that you do not pass off your opinions as fact. If everyone in the world went by their observations, then the world would be a much more ignorant place. I've already went and have seen for myself, and my experience has never been "65% of Koreans have plastic surgery."

i guess we were in different areas then... when did you come here? and where did you go?

also, i didn't pass my opinions off as fact. is is you who interpreted them as fact.

maybe you just have differing opinions. here's what i've gotten from this thread: you look at people in South Korea and think that they had plastic surgery. others look at people in South Korea and don't think they had plastic surgery.

it all sounds pretty anecdotal if you ask me. i'd rather trust the studies that have been done on the subject matter.

[BeTheReds]

do you happen to have a link to these stats online? i'm wondering if the number came from the number of procedures done, because one woman can have multiple surgeries, and i'm also wondering if the number is only for plastic surgery for beautification purposes, and not reconstructive surgery to fix permanent scars and such.


No, but I actually taught a lesson on that in the foreign affairs class I taught in the high school I worked at. I got the stat either from a magazine article or a newspaper. I forget which. It took into account the number of first time procedures among south Korean women getting work done in Korea for any purpose, including boob jobs, sangapul, and other cosmetic practices (hair transplant, etc).

why should the average korean man's ideal be a white western woman? and if that's the case, wouldn't it mean asian women would be either offended, or want to look more like her?

Welcome to the double standard that is the Asian dating scene. Anyway, that's not his ideal, that's just someone he can get with. It probably appeals to Korean men to think they can get with a mysterious foreign girl if they use the right cologne. Since in real life there is a disparity in that regard, some people believe that certain types of IR relationships are okay.. while others are not. I never totally understood it, but apparently it's less threatening to Asian men to have them date white girls, then it is to have asian women seen with white men.



i'm not really sure what you're referencing here... it's 2AM and i can't find it easily scrolling back. but, i've got to say–yeah, there are of course things for me to learn. i hope that's true for everyone, because the world keeps changing. more on point, i admit that it's a new thing for me to want to know more about the culture because i always felt rejected from it. however, to me life is all about finding that perfect balance. education is important, but i'm not exactly going to spend more time than i feel is necessarily to know everything about the korean culture and the mentality of all the people in it, or from it. i've got other things to worry about, too...

Well, I can't speak for you, but is there a possibility that it's all in your head, and what you percieve as discrimination and rejection possibly is no more than language barrier?




and one last comment is that i want to clarify that i never spoke of asians whitening their skin. i have very fair skin that's lighter than some of the caucasian people i know and see. big deal.
Actually they do though. There's skin whitener makeup out there. People who use it aren't trying to look white, of course, but they are trying to conform to Asian beauty standards, in which light skin is preferred.

well, i'm going on sources such as these:
Approximately 75 percent of all Koreans and 50 percent of all other Asians are born without the double eyelid crease.

News flash, all babies everywhere don't have the double eyelid crease. That includes white babies. It takes a while before that trait develops. Fetuses all have epicanthic folds on their eyelids.

[deez nuts]

too much psycho babble in here.

let me sum it up for you: i think you're just insecure.

[Funky_Cactus]

i guess we were in different areas then... when did you come here? and where did you go?

also, i didn't pass my opinions off as fact. is is you who interpreted them as fact.

Here? You mean Korea? Every couple of years, I'm allow some myself some time in Korea. I went almost everywhere actually, cities to countrysides.

No, when someone suggested a significantly different statistic to Korean surgeries, you tried to correct them to your own opinion, which you tried to pass off as a fact. I tried to correct your opinon, but you tried to justify it with one source and advertisements.


i'd say about 65%+ have had their eyelids creased: men, women, old and very very young. getting your nose heightened and chin defined is also very popular. and maybe they think lowly of me because i haven't done that? i don't know...

there's no way in hell it's only 12%... unless 50% of the country is hiding indoors all day. the polls must be wrong.

[tapestrybabe]

i just learned about "the gathering". that definitely sounds like a nicer way to experience your heritage.

i guess its obvious you didnt
take into account my entire post...
the gathering itself was okay...
actually, i dont give too much thought
about it now... just cuz my experience of
just being in korea felt more important
than the conference itself...
and my last week there spending it
with a personal korean friend...
ended up being a whole lot more enjoyable...
than with amongst a bunch of other
adoptees that i hardly shared in common with...
i mean, like i said...
were not all the same...
and i prolly found myself more isolated
amongst such a crowd...
due to a difficult time finding anyone
sharing similar thought with me...

and honestly, when it comes to learning about
my own heritage... i find it to be a HUge FUCKin BOre...
taking some kinda korean cooking class or whatever...
various retarded stuff i had to end up doing
while in korea during my tour...
but i'd rather experience, learn such things...
thru a family, ppl that actually LIves it...

but considering your case...
such gatherings perhaps maybe more
beneficial for you... even the ones
that take place in the united states...
as a way to connect with other koreans...
in ways you havent been able to recently...

[lee duk sun]

i guess its obvious you didnt
take into account my entire post...

i actually did, and i appreciate what you've said. it's just that i've irritated the hell out of other people and sadly didn't put as much effort into replying to you as i did in defending my opinions to others. sorry about that.

i'm sure having a friend here would have helped me a lot. i tried to meet koreans in chat rooms (and they weren't looking for "friends") and on craigslist, but not many people over here use it yet. the only people who replied were white americans teaching english or in the military... which so isn't what i was seeking!

if i ever come back, i'll be sure to know the language first. they have lots of great classes in boston, so it shouldn't be hard to get into one fairly soon if i can manage it with everything else going on.

and i also think it'd be beneficial, as you said, to meet more korean americans back home. it might provide a healthier balance, at least, amongst other things.

xOx
sun lee sunbeam

maybe you just have differing opinions. here's what i've gotten from this thread: you look at people in South Korea and think that they had plastic surgery. others look at people in South Korea and don't think they had plastic surgery.

it all sounds pretty anecdotal if you ask me. i'd rather trust the studies that have been done on the subject matter.

can you POINT ME to some legit studies that have been done on the subject matter? i'd rather trust them as well, rather than a group of people on here who are just telling me different than what i believe to be experiencing.

too much psycho babble in here.

let me sum it up for you: i think you're just insecure.

well i'm glad i already know not to take you too seriously. i was going to say, "fuck you, i'm very secure in myself, bitch," but instead i'll just speak your language: penis penis scrotum balls nuts penis balls...

:rolleyes:

Here? You mean Korea? Every couple of years, I'm allow some myself some time in Korea. I went almost everywhere actually, cities to countrysides.

No, when someone suggested a significantly different statistic to Korean surgeries, you tried to correct them to your own opinion, which you tried to pass off as a fact. I tried to correct your opinon, but you tried to justify it with one source and advertisements.

i'm pretty sure my underlying argument has been that they just don't look natural to me, babes. i'm glad you have such a well rounded perspective of korea and that you're able to travel the place far and wide. can you tell me why you believe that they DON'T have the surgery, based on what you've seen with your own eyes, rather than trying to take a paragraph of mine and say that was the gist of what i was speaking about, when i've written more paragraphs on this freaking board than i've written for myself, unfortunately enough?

if you truly want to change my opinion, you'll have to give me your own actual perspective rather than just telling me that you've been here and mine is wrong.

[pikachupacabra]

Well, I kind of have jack and shit to add to this thread (And jack left town), but I've heard various reports that Brazil actually has the most plastic surgery done.

I'll go look for some stats, stat!

ok edit:

this story isn't very useful since it just gives raw numbers, and a country like the US is, of course, bigger than korea. But! Some interesting numbers, nonetheless.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1867098.stm



More cosmetic plastic surgery operations are carried out in the UK than any other European country, figures reveal.
Figures from the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgery found that surgeons carried out 24,336 in the UK in 2000.

However, that number was dwarfed by the massive 143,676 procedures carried out in the US - nearly 40% of the world-wide total.
Most plastic surgery operations
US 143,676
Brazil 66,090
UK 24,336
France 21,221
Mexico 16,957
Switzerland 16,062
The UK came third on the list, behind the US and ahead of Brazil.

The most popular procedure in the UK was the Botox injection.

This involves getting rid of wrinkles and lines by injecting a form of the botulinum toxin just under the skin.

The second most popular operation was the collagen injection to plump up wrinkles and lips.

Third was laser skin resurfacing in which dead skin is blasted away to reveal a clearer complexion.

Conservative approach

World-wide the most common plastic surgery procedure was liposuction followed by breast augmentation and Botox injection.



For the British going for something surgical is a big step

Luis Toledo
The ISAPS said Europeans have a "more conservative attitude" towards plastic surgery than their American counterparts for whom radical procedures such as face lifts and buttock lifts are more commonplace.

Luis Toledo, director of communications, told BBC News Online: "In Brazil and the US plastic surgery has been made extremely popular, not just by surgeons, but by magazines and television.

"But for the British going for something surgical is a big step."

Mr Clive Orton, of the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, said: "There has been an exponential growth in interest in plastic surgery in the UK over the last 10-15 years, and that is continuing.

"I don't buy the assumption that the British are conservative. We are not conservative about music, fashion or design and I don't think there is an old fashioned attitude towards plastic surgery in the way that there used to be."

The figures show that world-wide nearly nine out of ten plastic surgery patients are women.

But in Turkey, Sweden and Japan more than 20% of the patients are male.

Among men, the most common procedures are rhinoplasty (nose surgery), blepharoplasty (cosmetic eyelid surgery) and Botox injection.

Mexico has the highest percentage of teenage patients - 28.7%. The UK has the lowest proportion at 0.66%.



aha!

from this article
http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,10328-1060164,00.html

"Brazilians are devoted to the plastic surgeon's knife. Every year, 400,000 operations are performed in Brazil — the highest rate per capita in the world. Of these, half are done for aesthetic reasons. Brazilians used to like small breasts, but in recent years, there has been a fad for silicone implants. Brazilian surgeons are considered the best in the world (the wide racial mixture here gives them practice with all shapes and sizes) and, happily for them, they get lots of free advertising: people wear hardly any clothes, so their handiwork is always on display. "


Again...can't find anything on percentages of population, or charts on per capita, etc etc, so i'll keep snooping around...looking at data and stats and charts and tables is pretty much my job, so bleah, i guess it comes naturally. Is someone going to pay me for this one? lol j/k ;)

[lee duk sun]

well that's nice, pikachupacabra, that you put all that effort in. but there wasn't really a debate over who was getting more plastic surgery. it's more of an argument that it is or isn't commonly getting done.

i heard about brazilians getting lots of surgeries, as well... but i wasn't about to start that one! haha

[SunWuKong]

can you POINT ME to some legit studies that have been done on the subject matter? i'd rather trust them as well, rather than a group of people on here who are just telling me different than what i believe to be experiencing.

if you were so sure about the number of surgeries done, maybe you yourself should have tried to find some stats. otherwise, reading your posts and the fact that pretty much everybody else who's been to South Korea disagree with you, it seems like you're looking at people and you can't believe they can possibly look the way they do without plastic surgery.

i didn't spend too much time looking for this, but here's an article in Choson Ilbo that cites 17% of women in Korea had plastic surgery. i don't know where the newspaper got the number, but i'm assuming it's a little more accurate than going out on the streets and using the eyeball method. also, somebody mentioned that a lot of Japanese women go to South Korea to get plastic surgery because it's cheaper there. i don't know if the study they cite accounted for that.

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200509/200509260014.html

[tapestrybabe]

i feel like this whole disussion is vearing away from
the origional topic...
but whatever...

i actually did, and i appreciate what you've said. it's just that i've irritated the hell out of other people and sadly didn't put as much effort into replying to you as i did in defending my opinions to others. sorry about that.

i'm sure having a friend here would have helped me a lot.

yes, pehaps a friend would have helped...
but my REAl point was...
just because you bring a room full of adoptees together...
that doesnt automatically make everyone
relate and understand each other...
theres a saying amongst the
asian-american adoptee community--
we dont have to explain ourselves to each other,
cuz we AUTOMATically already understand each other...
which TO ME, i think is just a TOTAL LIE!!!...
cuz were NOT all the same, who think the same
and feel the same...
yes, there is some sense of solidarity amongst such a group...
due to being adoptees, a common thread
that runs amongst us koreans
and asians of other ethnicities that are adopted...
but i VERy much dislike it when the community ends
trying to paint a piture of this OH SO warm, fuzzy feeling
of having such comfort of just being able to
AUtOMATICALLy understand, cuz Damn it...
essentially, it REALLy IS thru ACTUAL EXPLAining,
bringing our DIFFERENCES to the surface
is when we can TRULy understand of all the
various facets we go thru as asian adoptees
and not clumping us all the same...

[lee duk sun]

i feel like this whole disussion is vearing away from
the origional topic...
but whatever...

it totally is! i created another post for it just to try to stop it in this one. the whole plastic surgery thing wasn't meant to be the point...


bringing our DIFFERENCES to the surface
is when we can TRULy understand of all the
various facets we go thru as asian adoptees
and not clumping us all the same...

i agree wholeheartedly. maybe they were using that blanket statement of 'already knowing and understanding' as a way to help make adoptees feel more part of a group, because growing up we obviously didn't really feel like there was a group to take stake in without somebody looking at us perculiarly... but, it's still wrong. it's kind of like saying that all children of divorce have this unspoken understanding with each other, and that's obviously untrue, because there are so many different factors... even if it is the same written situation, personalities and other details can be far more important.

anyway, it's nice to have met you ;-) did you see the pictures i took at the white lilly?

xOx

[Aurutus]

I hang out with a few Korean friends in L.A a year ago and somehow...through the conversation with them, they expressed that they were the most superior group of asians in Asia. No doubt, quite a number of my Korean friends think that they are the "best" group of asians ...sometimes...I find it harder to think and accept their comment it's because these words don't make them look better than any skin head, Neo-nazi gangs or people with hate.

I am curious if Koreans are divided in Christian/Catholic group vs the Buddhist/Confucius group?? Does that make a difference?

The westernized group of Koreans seem to detest their asiatic/mongoloid looks and hate anything Chinese and Japanese cultures. Koreans perhaps feel stigmatized and they feel the need to be identified as whites so badly?

Ironically, I never have any troubles hanging out with Japanese friends who are able to show more decent respect to people. The modern Koreans are actually tribes people from Mongolia and Manchuria. In fact, Koreans with the surname KIM are decendants of the Manchurians. To me, Koreans are peoples from the North China and I don't feel them any more superior nor inferior and we are all equally asian. It's just not right to look down on your own race.

Nevertheless, I embrace all asian people as my own people and family. I wish all asians peace and love ...:smile:

[tapestrybabe]

Oh, thats really nice to hear...
but i only embrace koreans as my own tho...
of course, that doesnt mean
i'm unable to develope friendships
outside of that :)

[lee duk sun]

I hang out with a few Korean friends in L.A a year ago and somehow...through the conversation with them, they expressed that they were the most superior group of asians in Asia. No doubt, quite a number of my Korean friends think that they are the "best" group of asians ...sometimes...I find it harder to think and accept their comment it's because these words don't make them look better than any skin head, Neo-nazi gangs or people with hate.

this is more along the lines of what i was thinking when i first started experiencing the prejudice. there's definitely a superior attitude that i perceive (i could be mistaken, but it feels pretty damn real when someone's shoving something in your face while giving you a dirty look) in a lot of occasions. not all, but many.


I am curious if Koreans are divided in Christian/Catholic group vs the Buddhist/Confucius group?? Does that make a difference?

The westernized group of Koreans seem to detest their asiatic/mongoloid looks and hate anything Chinese and Japanese cultures. Koreans perhaps feel stigmatized and they feel the need to be identified as whites so badly?

maybe, but you're reopening a recent wound that you'll find if you read through all of these comments! from the earlier feedback i've received, people say that the koreans aren't idolizing the westerners or whites, and that they're just trying to be the best of their race.


Ironically, I never have any troubles hanging out with Japanese friends who are able to show more decent respect to people. The modern Koreans are actually tribes people from Mongolia and Manchuria. In fact, Koreans with the surname KIM are decendants of the Manchurians. To me, Koreans are peoples from the North China and I don't feel them any more superior nor inferior and we are all equally asian. It's just not right to look down on your own race.

Nevertheless, I embrace all asian people as my own people and family. I wish all asians peace and love ...:smile:

this is going to be a perspectively skewed statement, but in my own experience, i've felt that as well. the japanese i've met seem to be more confortable in noncomforming, finding their own styles and voicing their own opinions that may go against the norm.

i don't feel ANY race is more superior than another, nor do i think that anyone has the right to. that usually stems from insecurity. given that i grew up with a mother who constantly told and showed me that all people are equal, i find it especially hard to be on the receiving end of such attitude from the people i'm supposed to be more like.

peace and love to you, too. xOx slsb

ps. when i say 'asian', 'korean', or 'japanese', i mean the ones who actually live in those places and were brought up there. i don't mean the asian americans. :wink:

if you were so sure about the number of surgeries done, maybe you yourself should have tried to find some stats. otherwise, reading your posts and the fact that pretty much everybody else who's been to South Korea disagree with you, it seems like you're looking at people and you can't believe they can possibly look the way they do without plastic surgery.

i didn't spend too much time looking for this, but here's an article in Choson Ilbo that cites 17% of women in Korea had plastic surgery. i don't know where the newspaper got the number, but i'm assuming it's a little more accurate than going out on the streets and using the eyeball method. also, somebody mentioned that a lot of Japanese women go to South Korea to get plastic surgery because it's cheaper there. i don't know if the study they cite accounted for that.

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200509/200509260014.html

oops, i didn't see this part earlier. thanks for the link. first off, not everyone responding and arguing about the side-topic that became the topic, has ever been to korea. and secondly, yeah... i haven't seen so many supposedly natural creases look so puffy and unnatural. hey–if it turns out they are natural, then maybe that accounts for why people are getting surgeries performed there–to make them look MORE natural. i don't know. this topic is getting out of hand anyway. the point was that i'm being treated poorly here.

and i wonder why so many people are so offended by the fact that to me, where i've been over here, it looks like an awful lot have had it done. aside from that, a korean man who has had it done for himself has also told me that it's a common procedure. whatevs! i'm moving on ;-)

if you were so sure about the number of surgeries done, maybe you yourself should have tried to find some stats.


btw–i'm not so sure about the number of surgeries being done. i just stated what it appeared like from my pov and the areas i've been in, which include all of seoul, southeast of seoul, and daegu.

this wasn't a post about me being so sure about anything. it was a topic for discussion as to WHY i might be being mistreated.

thx.

[tapestrybabe]

Well, I kind of have jack and shit to add to this thread (And jack left town)

LMAO!!!!

[lee duk sun]

one last post about this side rant of plastic surgeries in korea:

why is it that i'm getting comments that i'm insecure or having a hard time being surrounded by asians coming from white america? this just doesn't make sense to me... it's assumptive, and quite insulting. maybe i've indirectly insulted some of you by standing by what i believe to be experiencing, but c'mon... it started off as a half-mention at best.

honestly, i don't think ALL or even more than HALF the women who i suspect have the eyelid surgeries are all that beautiful–therefore, i'm not jealous or insecure of my own looks in their presence. there are some gorgeous women around here, and some not-so-hot, just as you'd find anywhere else in the world. why would one jump to the conclusion that my opinions (which are already overstated) about what i see here is insecurity at all?

in fact, i'd come out and say that it takes a rather SECURE person to come to korea without being able to speak much of the language and travel around on her own nearly every day. and yes, that's a pat on my own back, thank you ;-)

and secondly, why would i want to create a false perception of the people here if i didn't truly believe it to be so? don't forget–although i used to think of this as the place that rejected me (being abandoned and shipped out), it'll always be the place i am from. it'll never be my home, but it'll always have deep meaning to me. for fuck's sake, i've tattooed the words "freedom, passion, imagination" in korean on my right arm!

and lastly, the whole point of this post was that people in south korea are being ignorant and treating me like shit, frankly. worse than i've ever experienced in my life, and i've always lived in places where i was the minority. and as much as i'm sure i won't be returning here too soon, their behavior isn't stopping me from going out and finding new things here each day, being polite to them, and wanting to learn the language when i get back home. i'd say if i were insecure or trying to falsely claim the country to be made of plastic, i wouldn't be doing any of those things.

i wonder why people are being so defensive about this... it's as if i'm accusing THEM of having had the surgery, themselves. and rather than anyone who's actually been here describing to me why they haven't come to the same conclusions as several others who've been here have, they're trying to disect my words and flat out tell me i'm wrong and pointing me to articles and giving me numbers without back up that are equally as valid as the source that i sited. plus, reading TIME ASIA has also been another source of mine...

anyway...
/end of rant. i think it's time for something new to worry about. bitterness and annoyance kinda tastes like shit. ;-)

see you kids 'round the corridors... won't likely be checking back here.

xOx

[Chad]

i've tattooed the words "freedom, passion, imagination" in korean on my right arm!

*vomit*

[rice cracker]

I'm bored.

[moJo]

*vomit*
c'mon man, that's unnecessary and kind of rude...

[SunWuKong]

one last post about this side rant of plastic surgeries in korea:

why is it that i'm getting comments that i'm insecure or having a hard time being surrounded by asians coming from white america? this just doesn't make sense to me... it's assumptive, and quite insulting. maybe i've indirectly insulted some of you by standing by what i believe to be experiencing, but c'mon... it started off as a half-mention at best.

honestly, i don't think ALL or even more than HALF the women who i suspect have the eyelid surgeries are all that beautiful–therefore, i'm not jealous or insecure of my own looks in their presence. there are some gorgeous women around here, and some not-so-hot, just as you'd find anywhere else in the world. why would one jump to the conclusion that my opinions (which are already overstated) about what i see here is insecurity at all?

i wasn't one of the people that called you insecure, but i wanted to say that your comments about plastic surgery raised some eyebrows for me. you were basically thinking that 65% the people you see there must have gotten surgery just by looking at them. when BeTheReds told you that he did research on the subject and the number is much lower, your response was:

there's no way in hell it's only 12%

but the only way you were asserting this was that you were just looking at these people, and there's "no way in hell" you can believe that they look the way they do without surgery. so of course some people are going to have a problem with what you're saying, especially when there are others here who disagree with you and have been to South Korea themselves. in fact, i don't understand why you're so surprised that people have a problem with what you've been saying. any reasonable person who cares at all about people in Korea would have a problem with what you said.

[returntosender]

I hang out with a few Korean friends in L.A a year ago and somehow...through the conversation with them, they expressed that they were the most superior group of asians in Asia. No doubt, quite a number of my Korean friends think that they are the "best" group of asians ...sometimes...I find it harder to think and accept their comment it's because these words don't make them look better than any skin head, Neo-nazi gangs or people with hate.

I am curious if Koreans are divided in Christian/Catholic group vs the Buddhist/Confucius group?? Does that make a difference?

The westernized group of Koreans seem to detest their asiatic/mongoloid looks and hate anything Chinese and Japanese cultures. Koreans perhaps feel stigmatized and they feel the need to be identified as whites so badly?

Ironically, I never have any troubles hanging out with Japanese friends who are able to show more decent respect to people. The modern Koreans are actually tribes people from Mongolia and Manchuria. In fact, Koreans with the surname KIM are decendants of the Manchurians. To me, Koreans are peoples from the North China and I don't feel them any more superior nor inferior and we are all equally asian. It's just not right to look down on your own race.

Nevertheless, I embrace all asian people as my own people and family. I wish all asians peace and love ...:smile:


They're the same guys who complain about white boys stealing their women no doubt. They treat other asians like inferior but when whites do the same to them they bitch.

[deez nuts]

well i'm glad i already know not to take you too seriously. i was going to say, "fuck you, i'm very secure in myself, bitch," but instead i'll just speak your language: penis penis scrotum balls nuts penis balls...

:rolleyes:


you forgot the vas deferens and seminiferous tubules. my personal favorites.

forget the referral. lemme write you a prescription for some lexapro ;).

[kimpossible]

Hey, I got no problems letting you work on me. I'm going to need a major overhaul with a team of laser specialists.

[deez nuts]

laser beams pew pew!

[kimpossible]

ANYWAY. the rant is this: the asian women, in particular, hate me! they loathe me! they look at me with disgust, treat me like crap, laugh in my face, talk about me in my presence, and are just outright RUDE to me! this happens when i try to do business with them in a market, at a shop, on the subways, at museum exhibits, etc. the only place it doesn't happen is in my hotel or a fancy restaurant, or with my boyfriend's white colleagues and asian colleage.

now, i admit... i don't speak much of the language. i didn't know i was coming until 2 weeks prior to the trip. but it was obviously something i couldn't pass up, and was a little nervous about my not knowing the culture so much. but i've made every attempt to make the compromises you make when you enter a new country. i bow, i know the very basic polite conversational phrases, and try my hardest to look friendly and happy to be here. but the truth is, if it weren't for my determination to keep going out everyday to find something cool and cultural (which i do), it would be horrible, because everywhere i go i am ridiculed.


but i'm wondering if any of you have experienced this sort of thing before?

growing up i never really 'fit in' to any culture, so i learned to accept myself for my differences and other people and their differences. i think differences are what makes the world so cool. i'm sad to say that i've never been treated so poorly as i am here, in this country i was born in and arranged out of within 6 months. it's common knowledge here that a lot of people were adopted to the west, and even if it wasn't, there's no need for this kind of treatment.

what does anyone think can be done?


I wasn't here for all the flaming so I don't really know what led up to all that happened and I'm just concentrating on this one post.

I'm mostly white and Asians (in Asia) almost universally call me "American" as an identifier and assume I'm a dumbass foreigner. I'll own up to partly being one. There's no real excuse for my Chinese still sucking and yes, I receive complaints about it but it's too hard for me to get beyond talking like a 5 year old in the states.

Anyhow, I've never been to Korea but I do go to Japan, Taiwan and HK. This is my advice:

I'd hesitate assuming you're being mocked for your looks or nationality especially if your language ability is lacking. This is one of the biggest assumptions people make. Most likely, no one's paying too much attention to you unless you're doing something weird by national culture standards. Like wearing shorts and a tank top, making weird gestures, operating something incorrectly, things like that.

And even if you are being mocked... so what? Do you know how often I get stared at on the streets of Taipei? Some people do a full turn around once they pass by me. And this is in the city not in the countryside. I'm sure I've done dumb shit before. Not too often, especially not now since I've been there to get used to the pace of life but there are people asking my husband questions like do I eat rice and do I need a fork and can I understand any Chinese while I'm right there next to them.

(Deez Nuts will love this) One time I was mistaken for a fat Taiwanese girl. Some lady came up from behind me to offer herbal diet stuff only to realize I was a foreigner once I turned around. For people like us that have uncommon and culturally complex backgrounds, you can't expect the average person to be clairvoyant and automatically know what you're all about.

From first hand experience I can tell you that you have to grow a thicker skin and be more attuned to cultural differences. You may be ethnically Asian but you are traveling to Asia as a foreigner. That has to be taken into account. You grew up with different social standards for behavior. I think you're being both too hard on yourself and too hard on the people you're interacting with. It takes time to acclimate to a society you didn't grow up in.

You can't make honest conclusions after two weeks of your first trip as an adult to a foreign country, or one you did not grow up in. Give it more time and more trips. Build your language skills, be more humble and adopt a greater tolerance for misunderstandings. Patience and effort will get you further than rash judgment.

[lee duk sun]

i wasn't one of the people that called you insecure, but i wanted to say that your comments about plastic surgery raised some eyebrows for me. you were basically thinking that 65% the people you see there must have gotten surgery just by looking at them. when BeTheReds told you that he did research on the subject and the number is much lower, your response was:

and when someone asked him where he got his numbers from, he said something like "i can't remember, some newspaper..."


but the only way you were asserting this was that you were just looking at these people, and there's "no way in hell" you can believe that they look the way they do without surgery. so of course some people are going to have a problem with what you're saying, especially when there are others here who disagree with you and have been to South Korea themselves. in fact, i don't understand why you're so surprised that people have a problem with what you've been saying. any reasonable person who cares at all about people in Korea would have a problem with what you said.

you've overstated this argument and taken the pieces of it which don't represent the entirety of what i've said in this thread, so i see no point to further justify what i'd previously said. and you're also furthering the truth behind my ending rant.


I'd hesitate assuming you're being mocked for your looks or nationality especially if your language ability is lacking. This is one of the biggest assumptions people make. Most likely, no one's paying too much attention to you unless you're doing something weird by national culture standards. Like wearing shorts and a tank top, making weird gestures, operating something incorrectly, things like that.

if you read back through everything i've said, i'm not saying i'm being mocked for my looks or nationality. i'm saying they're visibly being rude in regular situations, such as shopping, etc. facial expressions and the raising/tone of voice is universal communication that anyone can understand.

what i don't get is that i'm saying "hey, i'm being the victim of more prejudice here than ever before, anywhere" and everyone here's saying "no you're not." hmmm. doesn't anyone find that strange?

And even if you are being mocked... so what? Do you know how often I get stared at on the streets of Taipei?

that's not right, either. and mocking is slightly different from real prejudice.

I think you're being both too hard on yourself and too hard on the people you're interacting with. It takes time to acclimate to a society you didn't grow up in.

if you could SEE for yourself the way they're interacting with me, you'd say it was the other way around. i can't defend myself against people who are determined to say that i'm the one not making the efforts or being thick enough skinned. i keep going out every day, don't i? into all the crap i get daily, just to keep goin...

You can't make honest conclusions after two weeks of your first trip as an adult to a foreign country, or one you did not grow up in. Give it more time and more trips. Build your language skills, be more humble and adopt a greater tolerance for misunderstandings. Patience and effort will get you further than rash judgment.

i've been here for 4 weeks. i've traveled to other foreign countries where i was more of the minority, and never got this crap. i'm not even counting the misunderstandings, either. i can appreciate your efforts, but the truth is that you don't really know what i'm experiencing and you're instead, shifting the blame onto me. i find that strange, too.

[SunWuKong]

and when someone asked him where he got his numbers from, he said something like "i can't remember, some newspaper..."

...which is a whole lot better than just looking at people and concluding that they must have had cosmetic surgery, and then saying that research done on the numbers can't possibly be true.



you've overstated this argument and taken the pieces of it which don't represent the entirety of what i've said in this thread, so i see no point to further justify what i'd previously said. and you're also furthering the truth behind my ending rant.

overstated? not really. i just have the nerve to call it as i see it. you, on the other hand, seem to be pouncing with pent up anger.

[Funky_Cactus]

i'm pretty sure my underlying argument has been that they just don't look natural to me, babes. i'm glad you have such a well rounded perspective of korea and that you're able to travel the place far and wide. can you tell me why you believe that they DON'T have the surgery, based on what you've seen with your own eyes, rather than trying to take a paragraph of mine and say that was the gist of what i was speaking about, when i've written more paragraphs on this freaking board than i've written for myself, unfortunately enough?

if you truly want to change my opinion, you'll have to give me your own actual perspective rather than just telling me that you've been here and mine is wrong.

People here have expressed their opinions, but you ignored them. I never said they never had plastic surgery, yes, some have, but no, not 65%. I was never trying to paint a pretty picture that Korea is full of natural beauties, but was trying to disprove your false accusations. You asked if I was there, so that was the only reason I stated that I was in Korea. I told my opinions previously, so I'm not willing to repeat myself if all that is needed to be done is clicking buttons and comprehending sentences.

[jongeh]

wow, 5 pages that say the exact same thing over and over again.

what is this about again? who said what?

[kimpossible]

LOL. I guess I got the high-handed "Fuck off. You don't know what you're talking about." haha. shot down.

It's okay. Your paintings are cool. I like your makeup too. And yes, I'm serious.

wow, 5 pages that say the exact same thing over and over again.

what is this about again? who said what?

No idea. I only read the first and latest page. It seemed to get flamey after the first page then repeat a lot.

[applehead]

really, you're talking about a country
where if you're a woman and smoke in public
people think you're a hooker.
smoke at home and at a cafe. totally fine!

hey, it sucks but they'll talk shit about anyone
and anything that looks or talk different.

i think you're just misplacing your anger and taking
it out on the wrong things.
yeah yeah yeah, they all wear the same outfits,
with the same ferragamo shoes and the same LV bag.
but don't hate them for buying into commercialism.
hate them for being close minded bitches.

whatever.

at least now you know.

augh. people, she's hurt and angry.

a little "i'm sorry this is happening to you"
wouldn't hurt.

[pikachupacabra]

Well, if nothing else sunbeam, you made some good conversation on these boards, lol.

[deez nuts]

i read ferragamo and louis vuitton. i love ferragamo and louis vuitton.

[Paradox]

Maybe you should have an impartial person observe how you're interacting with these Korean people. If you talk and act like a white woman in an asian woman's body it tends to annoy lots of people in general. I don't want to speculate too much but maybe these people think you are being haughty or arrogant about your ethnic roots?

Sometimes speaking english loudly in Asia is kind of rude. You are viewed as a showoff or even worse they think you are trying to deny your own ethnic background. I'm not saying any of these things necessarily pertain to you but you should step back and see if there's anything YOU are doing to cause this reaction. I somehow doubt that all these people are rude to you automatically just "because" that's just too much of a coincidence. Anyways, I don't think we are getting the whole story here something is missing.

[mr. x]

im inclined to believe by her woe is me attitude that sun lee is being a tad dramatic and that korea (although bad) is not that bad

[Aurutus]

Sunbeam has brought up a very good analysis and questioning about conformity. If a person acts out of the system, he/she is labelled as a weirdo. Individuality and dress-code rebels are rarely tolerated. It's like "Matrix" in asia...men wear the same clothes, shoes and haircut to work...

[hkRT]

ANYWAY. the rant is this: the asian women, in particular, hate me! they loathe me! they look at me with disgust, treat me like crap, laugh in my face, talk about me in my presence, and are just outright RUDE to me! this happens when i try to do business with them in a market, at a shop, on the subways, at museum exhibits, etc. the only place it doesn't happen is in my hotel or a fancy restaurant, or with my boyfriend's white colleagues and asian colleage.

I haven't been following recent posts closely so I'm just skimming through a post here and there trying to get a gist of what's going on.

I think the rude people you encountered in Korea were not "racist" towards you or something. My guess is---- Just from your description, it sounds like they first saw you as one of them because you looked no different from them on the surface. But then they started being "rude" probably because they noticed that your behavior, demeanor and way of talking were different from them and they did not understand why. So they continued to think of you as a Korean and applied the same standards to you as they would to a fellow Korean. They might think that you intentionally acted western, white-washed or something washed and then mistook you for acting snobbish, disrespectful and such. They probably did not understand that you were adopted and grew up in a culture different than their own.

It's probably either that or they were just some random rude people that we could all meet anywhere. But if it's happening to you a lot over there, it might change if you explain to them that you do not understand the Korean culture as well as you wanted to because you are an adoptee and are just trying to connect. Just a brief intro will do. My guess is some of them may change their initial perceptions of you once they understand your background. Also, could it be that you are more sensitive over how they see you than you normally would over other people that you have grown familiar with? They weren't rude to your boyfriend for instance because to them, he's a foreigner and they saw him and treated him as just that-a foreigner, with guarded politeness and so they didn't hold the same standards towards him. Your asian colleague (I dunno) may be more familiar with the Korean culture and didn't stick out as foreign in behavior?? Just a wild guess though..



now, i admit... i don't speak much of the language. i didn't know i was coming until 2 weeks prior to the trip. but it was obviously something i couldn't pass up, and was a little nervous about my not knowing the culture so much. but i've made every attempt to make the compromises you make when you enter a new country. i bow, i know the very basic polite conversational phrases, and try my hardest to look friendly and happy to be here. but the truth is, if it weren't for my determination to keep going out everyday to find something cool and cultural (which i do), it would be horrible, because everywhere i go i am ridiculed.

You might be trying too hard though. I cannot say I understand totally because your experience is unique. But it may help to just be yourself and take new things slowly at a time. Maybe, try not to be too concerned with being ridiculed or the possiblity of it. I'm sure there are many people who are not that mean once they get to know the real you, or once you get to know them. :smile:


south korea is a beautiful country, rich with history and technology and amazing scenery. but the people here act like i'm insulting them somehow. i even hide my tattoo so they can't see it, since they think tattoos are a disgrace.

It's possible that something you unintentionally did or said might seem insulting to them. But I don't think it's the tattoo. Just have to know which Korean celebs also spot tattoos and it'll be all acceptable. :tongue:


i dress more conservative while i'm here, too. but they're all about conformity, brand names, status, and... facial plastic surgery! that's another topic i could go off on... but i already released a lot in my personal journal. but basically, i'd say about 65%+ have had their eyelids creased: men, women, old and very very young. getting your nose heightened and chin defined is also very popular. and maybe they think lowly of me because i haven't done that? i don't know...

Not to sound picky, but how did you come to that conclusion that they're all about conformity, brand names, status and plastic surgery? Those are really big generalizations and some might even consider that stereotyping which we also have to deal with living back home in the U.S. or Canada... There are lots of (white) Americans living in the U.S. that are all about these things but then we generally don't brand Americans like that as we differentiate one individual from the other in the U.S.

Could you have unknowingly judged the native Koreans with Western standards and bias?


but i'm wondering if any of you have experienced this sort of thing before?

growing up i never really 'fit in' to any culture, so i learned to accept myself for my differences and other people and their differences. i think differences are what makes the world so cool. i'm sad to say that i've never been treated so poorly as i am here, in this country i was born in and arranged out of within 6 months. it's common knowledge here that a lot of people were adopted to the west, and even if it wasn't, there's no need for this kind of treatment.

what does anyone think can be done?

This is a good topic-- asians being prejudiced to asians.

Some asians are no doubt prejudiced to other asians. In my experience, it's usually those individuals who either don't consider themselves asians or think that they are some higher class people, distinct, more cultured and separate from other asians. Yeah, some of those individuals are even more racist and hypocritical than the average redneck. I've met some of these people of my ethnicity as well as those of other ethnicities and races.

[lee duk sun]

hello, hkRT. thanks for your response. i especially appreciate that it's well thought out and taking many things into consideration.

i don't want to overdo this reply because i have a feeling that some people will get frustrated with the repetitiveness of what i've said on this thread and in another. but to sum it up, from the research i've done on the percentage of koreans with natural creased eyelids (harvard univ. and time asia) compared to the amount of people i was seeing with creased lids, i guessed there was about a 65% difference. in regards to the conformity, maybe 5% of the people i saw weren't wearing brand names or the same 'style' of clothing. most of the women applied their make-up the same, and everyone had the same bags. now, at the same time, i also think that korea was an overall more neat and clean looking country because of this. if you scanned any radius of people in korea they'd look nicer dressed than any area of america, overall. that said, i personally prefer seeing differences amongst people over an overall sleek appearance. i'm not trying to stereotype these people... it's just what i experienced. 5% of people breaking out from the norm isn't a whole lot, to me.

i mentioned in another post that i didn't really blend into their society, despite my asian looks. this is mostly because of my personal style choices, and i think the biggest reason why they knew i wasn't "one of them", or at least treated me in that manner. you're probably right in that i was trying too hard, but after the amount of crap i got, i was VERY CAREFUL not to offend anyone or stick out more than i did on surface. i don't know if that's really a bad thing, though... and i did try to the best of my abilities to explain to them a little background on who i was. i couldn't exactly do that walking down the subway halls, but to whoever i came into closer contact with.

i've come to accept after all of this interaction with the people of korea and the people on this web site, that i still don't really 'fit' into any group of people. but i'm also okay with that. i have formed a whole new group of questions in my head now, and i'd love to get them answered or just hear different people's takes on them... but i'm finding that very hard to do. many people are almost skipping over the issue i'm trying to discuss. i've created this hate club or something ;-) but despite what anyone thinks, and regardless of the crap i went through, i do not even hate the people who hated on me. i'm just trying to understand them, and i don't think taking the time to understand people is ever a bad thing or waste of time.

i wonder, though, why IT SEEMS TO ME that so many people on this site "seem" to place so much emphasis of their identity by the race they were born into, or the one they identify with. (that's just me being careful so not to insult people.) it's just that there's so much more to a person... to who they *really* are... or at least that's what i'll always believe. xOx

[Fireblade]

My Advice?

When you go back to the states, make friends with people who are Korean and get to know the culture. Assimilate what the hell are the cultural norms, instead of going into the country willy nilly, and assuming that you'll be ok. White Americans are generally accepted all over the world, even if they're portrayed as ignorant, lazy, and fat. People are taught at an early age to act a certain ways towards them.

Let's look at it this way. My friend is Porteguese and Dutch. He didn't know shit about Korea. Then he went over to stay a month in Korea with his friend. Most of th