Damn death penalty

[mrcfo]

Why Why Why in the 21st century are we still taking lives of the - well ok, some are not so inncent but healthy people? Why the fok are countries like Singapore - semi developed with an educated population still doing so for minor crimes like drug trafficking?

What a foked up world we live in.....

[SunWuKong]

technicality - i don't think Singapore is considered "semi" developed. isn't it considered just altogether developed?

anyway, instead of the death penalty, i'm all for prison labour and torture that doesn't leave permanent damage.

[Dei Wong]

technicality - i don't think Singapore is considered "semi" developed. isn't it considered just altogether developed?

anyway, instead of the death penalty, i'm all for prison labour and torture that doesn't leave permanent damage.

I'm all for the labour but human rights would go crazy if people started getting torture of any kind. I don't think anyone would be bold enough to make a guide to torture.

[SunWuKong]

yeah but (now it seems like i'm arguing with myself) the problem with prison labour is that what it amounts to is a government operation which has extremely cheap or even free labour that potentially cuts into the commercial business world. the government directly going into business is generally a no-no in "developed/democratic/free/etc" countries like the US.

[Arex]

I dunno about torture, but forced labor seems fair enough to me. You get sued in a civil case and lose, you've got to work to pay off any judgment against you. You rape and/or kill someone and you just sit on your ass all day. That doesn't seem right.

yeah but (now it seems like i'm arguing with myself) the problem with prison labour is that what it amounts to is a government operation which has extremely cheap or even free labour that potentially cuts into the commercial business world. the government directly going into business is generally a no-no in "developed/democratic/free/etc" countries like the US.Hmmm... Good point. I'd say have them do the jobs that ordinary citizens wouldn't want to do (what jobs those are, I don't know since even private citizens will empty outhouses), but it's not like we want these people running around in society.

[SunWuKong]

so regarding torture - how about something like caning? i remember when that American teen was caned in Singapore, most of the people i know in the US actually thought he deserved it.

[Arex]

I'm not necessarily for torture for torture's sake. But I guess for lesser crimes, it kinda makes sense to just whack people in the ass a few times, humiliating them, and impose a monetary fines rather than waste resources keeping them locked up. I thought that American kid in Singapore deserved his caning. I'm still bothered that Clinton attempted to intervene.

What about tailoring the punishment to fit the crime? Sometimes I think rapists should lose their dicks, but then a lot of times it all comes down to a case of the alleged predator's word against the victim's (see, e.g., Kobe). I'd hate for anyone to lose his penis because he had consensual sex with the wrong crazy girl. But in clear cut cases of child rape, with physical evidence, it's time to lop it off.

[Dei Wong]

so regarding torture - how about something like caning? i remember when that American teen was caned in Singapore, most of the people i know in the US actually thought he deserved it.

I think he deserved it too. But torture is a line most don't want to cross. There is too much room for this to turn it something bad. I promise the line will blur as to when someone deserves torture and what is acceptable torture.

[eos]

i think we should bring back the olden methods of humiliation. you know the stocks, parading around town with a sign saying what crime you did, dunking you in the lake to find out if you were a witch....wait, scratch the last one. i personally like the stocks. bring back the town squares and let people throw rotting garbage at the guilty. embarrass the living daylights out of them, so everyone will know what kind of people they are.

[Dei Wong]

i think we should bring back the olden methods of humiliation. you know the stocks, parading around town with a sign saying what crime you did, dunking you in the lake to find out if you were a witch....wait, scratch the last one. i personally like the stocks. bring back the town squares and let people throw rotting garbage at the guilty. embarrass the living daylights out of them, so everyone will know what kind of people they are.

Thats a good idea. But there are who are ignorant enough to be proud of the things they did. Plus most people who commit white collar crimes (Enron) they tend to frown on being put out in public in that fashion. Only few years ago they started making them go out in public with their cuffs on, They nomally had them walk out the back away from camera and over all public view and humiliation. I like your idea but those guys would fight tooth and nail the make sure that doesn't happen.

[eos]

but how do they get to decide what happens to them? is it because they have money and high-powered attorneys? you can't do the crime and not do the time, which should include public humiliation. these people ruined thousands of lives. and who cares if they don't like it? they didn't care when they trampled on their employees.

[Faithless]

Why Why Why in the 21st century are we still taking lives of the - well ok, some are not so inncent but healthy people? Why the fok are countries like Singapore - semi developed with an educated population still doing so for minor crimes like drug trafficking?

What a foked up world we live in.....
Is your complaint that the DP exists at all? Or that exists in specific countries; i.e., Singapore?

And don't you love how people say, "I don't support it, but it's the law."

Now, I know this is an outrageous example, but if "brutalized analization with beef sticks was the law, would simply say, 'hey, it's the law?'" (I was watching Fox News and thought of that reference.)

Just because it is the law, does not make it a good law. And do we really oppose it, if we say, "it's the law?" It seems we should take the extra step and protest it (in some way).

[eos]

brutalized analization? is that what i think it means????

[Craig]

so regarding torture - how about something like caning? i remember when that American teen was caned in Singapore, most of the people i know in the US actually thought he deserved it.Guess you weren't talking to too many California folk back then ...

[snailpoo]

Just because it is the law, does not make it a good law. And do we really oppose it, if we say, "it's the law?" It seems we should take the extra step and protest it (in some way).
...you mean... like voting?

The majority of American support the death penalty, and that includes the Democratic bastions of New York and California.


Of course, not all popular laws are "good" laws, but when a particular law has majority support AND passes Constitutional muster, what challenge do you have to it legally?

[Dei Wong]

but how do they get to decide what happens to them? is it because they have money and high-powered attorneys? you can't do the crime and not do the time, which should include public humiliation. these people ruined thousands of lives. and who cares if they don't like it? they didn't care when they trampled on their employees.

Thats the sad truth. I couldn't agree with you more in saying they would deserve it. But to stop it they may say its affecting them mentally or that kind publicity could cripple them financially. Making people afriad to do business with them. Plus I'm sad to say too many ceo's and government figures would oppose this.

[eos]

they would be allowed to do business again?? i mean, come on!!! this could help keep unscrupulous people on their toes and think twice about their stupid decisions. ugh....corporations run the world, we are part of the world, and when they fuck up we have to bend over and take it.

[Dei Wong]

they would be allowed to do business again?? i mean, come on!!! this could help keep unscrupulous people on their toes and think twice about their stupid decisions. ugh....corporations run the world, we are part of the world, and when they fuck up we have to bend over and take it.

In some cases yes. Oil for is an energy source that is 40 years out of date. If the government wanted we could have switch to a clean more efficient source in the late 60's early 70's. Do you know how long we've had electric cars, cars that run on hydrogen, and cars that run on tap water. These things have been around for years. But the oil company makes sure no one pushes them. They black them out. Big companys have alot of power and have alot in government.

[Yeahman]

You guys are harsh.
No DP. Not torture. I'm not even liking the idea of public humiliation. What happens if you turn your life around after that? You're still an outcast.
I think the primary purpose of prisons should be rehabilitation. I think the best way of doing that is to keep socialization and entertainment to a minimum in jail and promote things like education and faith-based programs which have a proven track record of rehabilitation in prisons. Forced physical labor is only useful in as much as it builds a habit of hard work.

[Faithless]

...
No DP. Not torture.
...
Double pen.? They do that on Death Row? ... Records maybe.

[Flow to Live]

I dunno about torture, but forced labor seems fair enough to me. You get sued in a civil case and lose, you've got to work to pay off any judgment against you. You rape and/or kill someone and you just sit on your ass all day. That doesn't seem right.


I rather be doing hard labor then sitting on my ass all day, because it'll keep me occupied. I know that if i sit on my ass all day for 10 years or something then i would go crazy.

[yoMAMA]

technicality - i don't think Singapore is considered "semi" developed. isn't it considered just altogether developed?



singapore is not a "real" democracy, so it's semi developed.

:tongue:

[Faithless]

...you mean... like voting?

The majority of American support the death penalty, and that includes the Democratic bastions of New York and California.

Of course, not all popular laws are "good" laws, but when a particular law has majority support AND passes Constitutional muster, what challenge do you have to it legally?
Stuff like this, maybe. People realizing that the DP kills innocent people:

TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT - Panel proposed to study justice system in state (http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1138098056314760.xml&coll=1)

Tuesday, January 24, 2006 | BY PETE SHELLEM | Of The Patriot-News

Citing at least eight wrongful convictions in Pennsylvania in which the defendants served a combined total of 110 years in prison before being cleared by DNA evidence, the chairman of the state Senate Judiciary Committee yesterday said he wants to create a commission to examine those failures of the justice system.

Sen. Stewart J. Greenleaf cited cases like that of Barry Laughman, who spent 16 years in prison before a Patriot-News investigation found DNA evidence that cleared him of murder. Greenleaf said such cases need to be thoroughly investigated to determine what went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again.

"All we want is justice," Greenleaf said. "We want the guilty to be punished and the innocent to be exonerated."

Greenleaf, a Montgomery County Republican who was the driving force behind 1992 legislation that allowed convicts to seek DNA testing if it could prove their innocence, was accompanied by Thomas A. Doswell of Pittsburgh, who was released from prison in August after 19 years for a rape DNA showed he didn't commit.

"I'm glad this bill has a chance to help other Thomas Doswells who are undoubtedly still in the system," he said.

Under Greenleaf's legislation, which was introduced with 12 co-sponsors, the commission would be made up of lawyers, police, judges and others involved with criminal justice issues.

It will examine cases and make recommendations for corrective measures through legislation or the judicial system, Greenleaf said. He said the commission will make use of existing senate staff.

There are only five states with more documented DNA exonerations than Pennsylvania, said Prof. John Rago, a law professor at Duquesne University who helped with the creation of the legislation.

There are eight documented exonerations from DNA in the state. A ninth man, Harold C. Wilson was released from death row after 10 years and was acquitted by a Philadelphia jury in just 15 minutes after his attorney presented DNA evidence at his second trial.

"This isn't about assigning fault," Rago said. "This is about seeing victims get justice. We can now look at these cases with complete moral certainty and figure out what we did right and what we did wrong."

Nationally, 172 people have been exonerated through the use of post-conviction DNA testing, Greenleaf said. Greenleaf's proposal is modeled after commissions that have been established in other states.

A public hearing on the bill will be held next Monday. Greenleaf said he didn't expect any opposition from prosecutors or police.

Dauphin County District Attorney Edward M. Marsico Jr. said while law enforcement officers are constantly examining their procedures, he welcomed the proposal.

"Certainly a study that could help us better investigate crimes and learn from cases where mistakes were made seems like a good idea," Marsico said.