Fat women and evolution

[Seamus]

Here we go again--another fat people rant. I live near San Francisco, where we have our share of obese people, but this past weekend I went out to Tracy, California--just 100 miles east of here--and I was blown away by the number of girls I saw out there who were built like heifers and had derriers spilling out of their oversize jeans. (If people think California is "health conscious," they should really come out here and see what it's really like). This got me thinking--assuming our nation continues to have an overabundance of calories, and assuming we continue to balloon up at the current rate, is it possible that we are creating selective pressure on our genes (and our jeans, size 18) that will eventually make the population more resistant to the detrimental effects of obesity and being out of shape? Right now, Type 2 diabetes, strokes, and cancers--as well as lack of sexual attractiveness--are a way in which nature culls out those who have no self-control, but is it possible that what we're doing is really building a race of fat people who are resistant to those scourges?

On a related note, I've noticed that female obesity is higher in areas where there is a very high ratio of men to women. For example, in Santa Clara County, where the ratio of unmarried men to women in their 20s and 30s is something like 4:1, the women are fatter and less in-shape than in Los Angeles or New York, even though we have better air, nicer weather, more opportunities for wholesome outdoor activity, and probably more Whole Foods stores per capita than the other two regions. This is true even if you control for socio-economic background, such as by limiting your sample of observation to middle-class, college-educated Anglo-Saxon and East Asian women. Again--evolution at work. If there is no competition among women for men, and even an obese chick can get laid, there is no incentive to stay fit based on sexual selection alone.

[Craig]

Aren't you also discounting issues like for hundreds of years in parts of Europe, fat and obese women were considered most attractive ?

[Seamus]

However, throughout much of that time, only a tiny fraction of the population could afford to eat enough to become overweight. I doubt that it had much of an impact on the evolution of the entire population. Moreover, what "fat" meant in those times was probably a whole lot thinner than the big Berthas we see lumbering around on the streets of America.

I wonder why it is that society treats obesity and overeating differently from how we treat smoking. Both types of behavior cause an enormous strain on our healthcare system, and the rest of us have to foot the bill. However, only smokers are shunned, banned from bars, and banished to the fire escape. I feel a little bit sad every time I see a hefty lass ordering a soy mocha frappuccino and a pastry at Starbucks, but like most people, I feel like it's really not my business to tell her what to do. However, if she were to light up, everyone would be on her back in an instant.

[LaiSteve66]

However, throughout much of that time, only a tiny fraction of the population could afford to eat enough to become overweight.

For most people, earning a living back then required more calories too.

[ahsingjai]

I've seen unbelievable huge customers at work. The biggest I've seen was a black lady. HER BODY NEVER STOP JIGGLING. It was a horrible sight. I've seen a super obese asian girl who wore something a skinny girl would wear to the beach. I wanted to tear my eyes out.

[kimpossible]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, why is this discussion limiting obesity to females?

[Seamus]

Obesity affects both men and women, but very fat guys are likely to rule themselves out of the gene pool, whereas fat women still have a pretty good chance of having sex and reproducing. Therefore, the selective pressure on genes that make fat people resistant to diabetes and other diseases is greater when women engage in behaviors that make them fat than when men do the same thing. That is why the focus is on women.

Also, throughout much of history, society has held women to stricter standards of physical appearance than men (though that has changed and men are today much more constrained by such standards than in the past). Therefore, for better or worse, obesity and the fat-acceptance agenda advanced by the pro-fat people has a larger societal impact when the focus is on women rather than on men.

[Keke]

I've seen unbelievable huge customers at work. The biggest I've seen was a black lady. HER BODY NEVER STOP JIGGLING. It was a horrible sight. I've seen a super obese asian girl who wore something a skinny girl would wear to the beach. I wanted to tear my eyes out.
There was a big, fat asian girl on the show, The Biggest Loser.

She was also a Bee-Otch!

BTW, Jacksonville, NC is the absolute worst. The ratio is over 20:1, men to women. 8 month pregnant women walk around with halter tops.... Tremendous obeciety is accompanied by lewd strutting...

May have been the most disgusting town I've ever been to.

The worst was when I watched a Marine's fat, disgusting wife pull his wallet out of his pocket... remove all the cash, and toss the empty wallet back at him. A young warrior forever chained to a humongous, fat woman.

[kimpossible]

And you think they're all getting plowed by fit guys who marry them and raise kids together? Usually if I see a chunky gal with a guy, he's no walking fitness dream. Overweight women also have a harder time conceiving whereas for guys, I don't think it matters much on their sperm count or motility.

[ahsingjai]

I'm just talking about morbidly obesed women I've met. I don't even care about the fat ones. Everyone can let loose sometimes, but not the morbidly obesed, those are unforgivable.

[Anaestacia]

^^It's strange though. I usually see the opposite. An average looking man, but his wife/girlfriend is overweight, even obese. Maybe he isn't a walking fitness dream, or his lifestyle isn't in tip top shape but appearance-wise, the pair don't often match (similar body type).

[Seamus]

And you think they're all getting plowed by fit guys who marry them and raise kids together? Usually if I see a chunky gal with a guy, he's no walking fitness dream. Overweight women also have a harder time conceiving whereas for guys, I don't think it matters much on their sperm count or motility.

No, overweight causes impotence in men. Moreover, I have heard that insulin resistance kicks in at lower levels of overweight in men than in women. In general, I think women are slightly more resistant to the detrimental effects of fat.

[kimpossible]

Yeah, I see more of the opposite. More really large guys with average (for American size) to slender women, or the couple is similar size large. I think the one exception is geek guys and maybe hippies. Those I will see with larger women on a regular basis.

Lots of beer bellies and processed food eating in the Northwest maybe.

No, overweight causes impotence in men.

Wouldn't matter much in the age of Viagra. Smoking would probably have a worse effect on fertility for guys.

edited to add: though you'd think that the women with bigger breeding hips would fair better than smaller hips. supposedly, it shouldn't matter because the kids are supposed to grow in proportion to the mother's hips - more often than not. then again, overweight doesn't equal bigger bone structure in the hips.

[Keke]

All this pointedly reminds us that asian women are the most attractive women in the world.

I've always been an a$$ and waist man myself. And the slender body type seen in most asian women (not American born) is irresistable baby!

[power puff girl]

Here we go again--another fat people rant. I live near San Francisco, where we have our share of obese people, but this past weekend I went out to Tracy, California--just 100 miles east of here--and I was blown away by the number of girls I saw out there who were built like heifers and had derriers spilling out of their oversize jeans. (If people think California is "health conscious," they should really come out here and see what it's really like). This got me thinking--assuming our nation continues to have an overabundance of calories, and assuming we continue to balloon up at the current rate, is it possible that we are creating selective pressure on our genes (and our jeans, size 18) that will eventually make the population more resistant to the detrimental effects of obesity and being out of shape? Right now, Type 2 diabetes, strokes, and cancers--as well as lack of sexual attractiveness--are a way in which nature culls out those who have no self-control, but is it possible that what we're doing is really building a race of fat people who are resistant to those scourges?

On a related note, I've noticed that female obesity is higher in areas where there is a very high ratio of men to women. For example, in Santa Clara County, where the ratio of unmarried men to women in their 20s and 30s is something like 4:1, the women are fatter and less in-shape than in Los Angeles or New York, even though we have better air, nicer weather, more opportunities for wholesome outdoor activity, and probably more Whole Foods stores per capita than the other two regions. This is true even if you control for socio-economic background, such as by limiting your sample of observation to middle-class, college-educated Anglo-Saxon and East Asian women. Again--evolution at work. If there is no competition among women for men, and even an obese chick can get laid, there is no incentive to stay fit based on sexual selection alone.


hey, asshole, post a picture of yourself.

in case you didn't realize, this is a progressive site for asian americans. such comments really don't belong here.

[Seamus]

Why am I an asshole? We are trying to have a discussion about evolutionary biology here. As much as I love my manly good looks, I don't think my appearance or my political orientation (I am not a progressive by any means) is really relevant to this discussion.

[kimpossible]

As much as I love my manly good looks, I don't think my appearance is really relevant to this discussion.

Okay, okay. Just treat us to one of your famous penis shows then.

[Seamus]

Kimpossible, that is shocking!

Also, I thought I would take the opportunity to point out how this is one further example of how blankly labelling YW as a "progressive" site is used to stifle debate. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, see one of my earlier posts). Some of us here are progressives, some are not. Of course, not everybody can be right, but we can engage in healthy discussion of which views are right, and which are not. We have all sorts of political viewpoints here, which I think makes it a better site than if everyone had the same views. If we were all progressives with identical views, there would be no point to any sort of discussion, outside of intellectual masturbation.

[kimpossible]

I will say this one thing and be done with it: these threads about fat and women do swing towards guys bitching about fat chicks (and almost never men) which shouldn't have anything to do with a scientific debate either. I think that's what she's reacting to mainly.

Have fun. Time for glass of disgusting sugar sludge and blood draw for me.

[Hiroshi2]

And you think they're all getting plowed by fit guys who marry them and raise kids together? Usually if I see a chunky gal with a guy, he's no walking fitness dream. Overweight women also have a harder time conceiving whereas for guys, I don't think it matters much on their sperm count or motility.




But the real question is how do two fat people have sex in the first place?


BTW..................while I personally think that while America has an obesity problem, I also think that a lot of people (and yes, this is mostly whites................blacks and Latinos don't think like this for the most part) don't know what "fat" is. What some people call "fat", I call "curvy". "Voluptious". Or even, "blessed". But many people would say that such women are "fat", and their definition of a normal weight is some skinny ass girl with no figure. It irritates me to no end.

[Seamus]

Hiroshi likes them big. . . The problem with thin women is, as Hiroshi alluded to, that the don't have any boobs or curves. The problem with fat and too-skinny women is that they're unhealthy. I guess you can never have things both ways. To make this discussion less "sexist" and to add an air of humility to my comments, I'll concede that the same is true for what women are looking for in men--you can never find a guy who's as well endowed as I am but actually has a personality or knows how to use it. So goes it in the world.

[mr. x]

All this pointedly reminds us that asian women are the most attractive women in the world.

I've always been an a$$ and waist man myself. And the slender body type seen in most asian women (not American born) is irresistable baby!
uh most asian overseas women are stick thin, and Im not being an ass either

[Hiroshi2]

Hiroshi likes them big. . . The problem with thin women is, as Hiroshi alluded to, that the don't have any boobs or curves. The problem with fat and too-skinny women is that they're unhealthy. I guess you can never have things both ways. To make this discussion less "sexist" and to add an air of humility to my comments, I'll concede that the same is true for what women are looking for in men--you can never find a guy who's as well endowed as I am but actually has a personality or knows how to use it. So goes it in the world.



Not BIG necessarily, believe me, where I live, 350 + pound women are not uncommon, and it's not attractive to me. It's just that I'm starting to realize my definition of "healthy weight" is pretty different than the Hollywood definition.


Like have y'all seen the Bally Fitness commercial where they have the female guitar player? The only thing bad about her was her gut. If she could've lost the gut but maintained the same size (basically developed her abdominal muscles) she would've been sexy as hell cause she had a figure, it was just messed up cause her stomach stuck out and shit.


But when you start to see hollywood tell people that you have to be skin and bones just to look good, I just can't get with that, period. Women are supposed to have a little extra weight on them, that's why their hips are wider, so they can have babies. Some of these girls that are borderline anorexic/bullimic, do you think they could have kids? Hell no. If they did, the child would be underweight.

[Keke]

uh most asian overseas women are stick thin, and Im not being an ass either
No, you're not an ass.... you're right.

I like a slender body type on ladies. I don't mind giving up a little in the chest in order to have those sweet hips and waist.

True, asian woman are not known for a curvatious butt, or big chest (see: All Brazilian women).

But would never give it up for the round-eye, big nose, cellulite butt.

[TB4000]

Hate to use her as an example, but look at Lindsay Lohan. Used to have bosoms that would make anna nicole blush, but now she's Skeletor.

[ahsingjai]

Hate to use her as an example, but look at Lindsay Lohan. Used to have bosoms that would make anna nicole blush, but now she's Skeletor.

I thought she was hella overrated. She look good in that rumor music video, then all sudden, ewwwwwww.

Then now she blond and got brown eyebrows, thats hella wierd.

[Chester]

but is it possible that what we're doing is really building a race of fat people who are resistant to those scourges?I can't imagine any scientific rationale that would support this eventuality.

[Seamus]

I can't imagine any scientific rationale that would support this eventuality.

Dude, I just PROVIDED you with a scientific argument. I described a mechanism by which the gene pool could drift in this direction. If the argument is flawed, you need to point out why it's wrong. Sure, it depends on a certain number of assumptions being satisfied, some of which are far from guaranteed (e.g., the continuing abundance of food), but I am saying that IF those conditions hold, this is what could happen.

[soapzen]

What a curious topic. LOL!

I'm not a scientist, but genetic mutation and er "gene pool drift" could only be accomplished if fat humans had an evolutionary advantage in breeding their kind.

Humans got less hairy probably because australopiticus found less hairy mates more desirable, or less hairy offspring had an easier time surviving, or a combination of both. Likely because the less hair you have, the less things like scabies, mange, lice, fleas would take hold, along with the germs they pass on (bubonic plague was carried by fleas for example) giving you a longer lifespan to procreate.

Unless fat people all of a sudden became the new sexy icons, or were better able to breed (and they're not, due to lower sperm count, diabetes type 2, difficulty completing the sex act) or bred more often, it would be hard for a populationwide genetic predisposition to develop.

However, fat that isn't thyroid related is caused by lifestyle. Since anyone can get fat in modern society, its obviously possible for obesity to become a problem... since it is a problem.

If food became scarcer, people would get skinnier. There are still many parts of the world today where food is scarce. The people are skinny.

[Hiroshi2]

But my question is, what is the definition of fat?

[TB4000]

You shouldn't want a skinny chick anyway. As men, we are genetically engineered to want a woman that can bear us some strong and sturdy stock. =P

[deez nuts]

No, you're not an ass.... you're right.

I like a slender body type on ladies. I don't mind giving up a little in the chest in order to have those sweet hips and waist.

True, asian woman are not known for a curvatious butt, or big chest (see: All Brazilian women).

But would never give it up for the round-eye, big nose, cellulite butt.

reminds of me the joke: how do you tell an asian woman from an asian man? bend them over.

[DragonKnight]

You shouldn't want a skinny chick anyway. As men, we are genetically engineered to want a woman that can bear us some strong and sturdy stock. =P
Strong hips...w00t! :biggrin:

[Keke]

reminds of me the joke: how do you tell an asian woman from an asian man? bend them over.

Is that a joke or a recommendation?

[diving_cats]

being "obese" is health risk, but being normal or say a few pounds overweight is not that bad. i notice that a lot, not all, asian people get very critical of ppl who r not stick thin like in their magazines, i think that is disgusting and being stick thin is just as bad of a health risk as being obese. personally i am 5ft7 and 150 pounds and not the typical, stick thin asian female, and many times i have been told (99%) by asian ppl that i need to lose weight. i rollerblade and walk and do other exercises often when i am able to and i think that many asians r too overly critical of something that is not fat.

[snbatman]

being "obese" is health risk, but being normal or say a few pounds overweight is not that bad. i notice that a lot, not all, asian people get very critical of ppl who r not stick thin like in their magazines, i think that is disgusting and being stick thin is just as bad of a health risk as being obese. personally i am 5ft7 and 150 pounds and not the typical, stick thin asian female, and many times i have been told (99%) by asian ppl that i need to lose weight. i rollerblade and walk and do other exercises often when i am able to and i think that many asians r too overly critical of something that is not fat.

5' 7" and 150 lbs for a woman is a fine weight as long as it's well propotioned. If you exercise, like you described, then, you're fine.

Bottom line, if you're happy with your weight, then that's all that matters, unless the "happy" weight gives you a BMI of way below normal!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Depends on where you go too I guess. In places in Asia such as Hong Kong, I feel friggin buff there b/c the guys are tiny, or at least...they used to be when I was there 7 years ago (I'm 5'10 145 lbs). It's different in Korea or northern China where everyone is like bigger boned and shit. Nowadays it's not rare to see FOBs towering over me. It makes sense that the dudes want their women smaller than them though, although I'd have no problem with dating a taller girl as long as she wasn't a lot taller. Personally i prefer the tennis player/figure skater body type in women...the supermodel/runway look usually turns me off.

As for the whole relationship/couple issue, my experiences lean toward those of Kimpossible's...I've seen a lot more overweight dudes with decent looking women...there just seems to be more overweight dudes than overweight women period...which makes sense since society places so much more pressure on women to stay in shape and conform to conventional standards of beauty. If a woman isn't considered beautiful, it's going to be a lot harder for her to be seen as worthy - obviously not the case if you're not the best looking guy in the world as evidenced by all the fugly men out there with hot wimmens.

[ahsingjai]

The only thing I don't want in a woman is stick skinny. I don't to bruise her when I'm just tapping her on her shoulders.

[Broomer]

I used to be extremely overweight (>100kg) but now I'm down to a healthier level (70-80kg).

I think it's all to do with rural communities and traditions. At least with me anyway. My parent (as with thei friends) thinks fat kids (and hence people) are "lucky".

Broomer

[Azn Retribution]

I think you all are missing out the point on whether the obesity found in america is more genetics or more of an acquired trait... I'd go for the latter.

Remember in basic biology, evolution/ecology that acquired traits does not mean it is inherited. Furthermore what dictates genetic drift is advantages in mating over hundreds of generations. There's not enough time and enough history to establish such a trend one way or another, besides to make models and then you run the risk of going down the lines of morons like Hardcore darwinists or hardcore creationists debating something futile and pointless.

While it is common and somewhat vain and conceited to think that fat people don't get no love. They do get love. from each other or from girls that you wish you had but since your personality sucks so much from being conceited. and since their so used to being shit on. They end up having a much better personality then you and jock yo girl.


Now back to the matter at hand,
The theory that there was a drift towards obese people is sort of flawed in that the diet has not remained constant enough in one population of people to push genetic drift significantly in that direction with relevance to the time incurred.

Your theory is flawed in that it is not established or known that obese european people of the past got that way due to genetics that predisposed them to being obese.

Additionally, I think we should establish the guidelines for what is a evolutionary genetic trait that establishes a predilection towards obesity rather than just say "this person is fat so their kids must be fat" is a rather unscientific, subjective and a untoward approach to the question.

but I'll go ahead and jump ahead by establishing it as a deficiency in the ability to process stored lipids as a energy source or the increased accumulation food into fat due to a metabolic disorder of one kind or another.

Anecdotally, based on the evidence presented so far in the thread. I don't think it is possible to make a intellectually honest hypothesis one way or another regarding "obesity as an evolutionary trait."

It just seems to degenerate into a hate fest on overwieght people or overweight people defending their fat and unhealthy lifestyles.

Furthermore the instigator of this thread seems to not have even formed it into a serious debative inquiriy by not including any legitimate results other than something that would span from me and my friends having drunk conversations. (which is how most YW threads probably get started one way or another.)

but complaining that YW stifles debate is moot when you never put anything worth debating about to begin with.

[mizhi]

The only thing I don't want in a woman is stick skinny. I don't to bruise her when I'm just tapping her on her shoulders.

I don't think that'd make a difference. My gf is not a skinny stick and she still bruises easily; not that I attempt to induce it.

[sageb1]

The only thing I like on a fat lady is her ass as long as it isn't morbid.

Big booty is ok. Cellulite is morbid.

Margaret Cho is average; Rosie is obese.

Oh yes! And Kirstie Alley is hot-na-hot.

And BTW why hasn't Michelle Malkin shown her skinny Chinay ass?

[SunWuKong]

And BTW why hasn't Michelle Malkin shown her skinny Chinay ass?

Michelle Malkin is Chinay?

[sageb1]

Just so everyone knows, my first ex-Gf was 5'10 and over 300 lbs; my last GF, 150 lbs+ and 5'3.

In order for a woman to have a rack she needs some healthy fat on her ass.

So a boob job just isn't natural on a 5'10 120 lbs frame.

[rice cracker]

300 lbs isn't healthy fat.

[l_lds2006]

there are plenty of obese ppl in the world not just here it could genetic due to thyroid disease could also be due to the fact that some have eating disorders you ever think that maybe some ppl's metabolism just isn't like everyone else so yes gentics does play a fact rather a person is over obese or not it still does not give you the right to bash them if they try to lose the weight and can't through the norm stuff that people who are average built and so fourth then that is a prob but dont think that it is their fault could be a number of factors playing in the obesity role some women are also big boned as well i do dispise the one's though who do wear clothing that is way to small for them and just let the fat show i mean for ffs i find it unattractive and i'm a woman i have seen some women wear clothing that should only be worn for women that are very petite that is what gets me!!! there is a difference and alot of factors that are played in obesity in the world basically alot like said previously genetic i think play a role in it and if that is the case then they need to get it taken care of

[thaite]

^-- Dude -- the paragraph return and punctuation keys are there for a reason. I suggest you learn to use them. I'm not going to bother trying to decipher what it is you are trying to say.

[halfbreed007]

Just so everyone knows, my first ex-Gf was 5'10 and over 300 lbs; my last GF, 150 lbs+ and 5'3.

In order for a woman to have a rack she needs some healthy fat on her ass.

So a boob job just isn't natural on a 5'10 120 lbs frame.

This is not true i'm 5'2 and 120 lbs and i have 36 D boobs (and they are real) and i got me a nice ass and i 'm a size 7 , you do not have to be big to have ass and boobs i work out almost everyday to say healthy and when ppl who are overweight say they can not lose the weight all i think is that they are just being to lazy to do anything about it, there are ppl out there who used to be overweight and they worked there ass off to lose it. So i say america its time to put down the hamburger and eat a apple.

[eos]

^that might be the longest run-on sentence that i have ever had the misfortune to hurt my eyes with and the misspelling and no punctuation made it that much worse and if you want people to take you seriously please learn to do these things and isn't this annoying to you so how do you feel when other people do it? *whew*

and before the guys have a chance to say it: post a pic. and yes i'm a girl but i'm not INTO girls.

[Asphalt]

If/when we deplete the Earth's ability to grow enough food to feed the exponentially growing human population, genetically fat people will have an evolutionary advantage.
For everyone with humming bird-like metabolisms that have to eat every 2 hours, consider what would happen if food were not so readily available. What if food were only available once a day, or once a week? At that point it will be advantageous to be able to store away the energy for later. Who knows, perhaps fat people will one day be the only ones left responsible for continuing the human race.
Fat people are more efficient at storing food.

[misschopstix]

But my question is, what is the definition of fat?

This video may answer your question.
http://www.youtube.com/v/yUTJQIBI1oA