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achtungbaby
11-08-2002, 10:16 AM
Store Clerk Dies After Attack, but Prosecutors Say It's Not a Murder Case

New York Times
By WILLIAM K. RASHBAUM

Six days a week, Li Qiang Shu worked long hours behind a bullet-proof partition in a liquor store in a crime-ridden section of the Bronx. Conscious of the dangers he faced each day, he passed cash and bottles through a small portal to customers.

But last Saturday, Mr. Li, 56, felt compelled to leave his protective plexiglass enclosure to break up a fight between a man and a woman exchanging blows in the store, at 312 Cypress Avenue in the South Bronx, the police said. As he entered the fray, he was punched in the head by a third person. He fell to the floor, the authorities said, and four days later, died from his injuries at Lincoln Medical and Mental Health Center, having never regained consciousness.

full story (http://yellowworld.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=155&mode=nocomments&order=1&thold=-1)

ChinaLama
11-08-2002, 10:54 AM
A committee is actually being formed TODAY in a few minutes to coordinate efforts to help w/ the case.

So if anyone wants to volunteer in helping with the case, PM me and I can forward your contact info to someone who's involved with this.

Rogmok
11-08-2002, 11:06 AM
misdeamor assault??!!

ok.. i can understand they can't go for Murder 1..
but what about manslaughter?!

deez nuts
11-08-2002, 11:08 AM
My close friend has offered to be part of the legal consult/legal services for this case. Very competent attorney, Yale Law School grad.

He didn't elaborate much more since I got paged in the middle of the conversation.

achtungbaby
11-08-2002, 11:31 AM
Is it me...? Or are there similarities between two certain District Attorney's? One is doing nothing, the other is doing too much...

ChinaLama
11-08-2002, 11:35 AM
yeah...eerie similarity. It seems no one's standing up for the China Man or Woman. :(

seryb
11-08-2002, 11:47 AM
A Laotian man was killed over the summer in New Hampshire. Unfortunately, I don't have the story. The white guy who killed him punched/pushed him down the stairs. The Laotian man was in his 60's.

The white guy was heard earlier in the night making anti-Asian remarks in a bar. He was tried for a hate crime, but got off on a much lesser charge. I'm gonna go look for the article and so I can post it up so everyone can see.

seryb
11-08-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by seryb@Nov 8 2002, 10:47 AM
A Laotian man was killed over the summer in New Hampshire. Unfortunately, I don't have the story. The white guy who killed him punched/pushed him down the stairs. The Laotian man was in his 60's.

The white guy was heard earlier in the night making anti-Asian remarks in a bar. He was tried for a hate crime, but got off on a much lesser charge. I'm gonna go look for the article and so I can post it up so everyone can see.
I guess it's old material. You guys are on the up and up. I won't rehash it.

ChinaLama
11-08-2002, 12:29 PM
re: seryb. He didn't get off on anything; he wasn't tried formally for a hate crime, but he was tried for something where the hate aspect would be a part of sentencing guidelines, so he would end up getting like 20 years.

Rogmok
11-08-2002, 01:11 PM
wasn't that the case when the dude was like "you killed my father and brother in vietnam"
before he killed the laotian man?

and i think they did some research, and turns out not only did the suspect not have brother or father vietnam, the victim was actually a US military veteran, or something..

maybe it was got a little sensationalized by the time it reached my ears :) but that was teh story i heard...

lethal
11-08-2002, 01:40 PM
That's terrible that they can't charge murder (which is somewhat understandable), but not even manslaughter? Someone died here.

Does New York have felony murder? I'll have to look that up, but that probably wouldn't apply unless the 3 intended to burglarize the store before they went in and killed the guy.

At least it seems like the authorities are concerned about this loophole in the law. Maybe some positive cahnge will come about, but it still won't bring those 3 people to justice for killing a man.

Tort action is probably not all that useful either, what money could 3 hoods possibly have?

angel nympho
11-08-2002, 02:04 PM
That should most def be something more than just an assault. I think if you're driving, and if somebody on a motorcycle in front of you falls off and you run over them on accident, you get charged with way more than that.

ChinaLama
11-08-2002, 02:47 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--lethalweapon+Nov 8 2002, 08:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lethalweapon @ Nov 8 2002, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's terrible that they can't charge murder (which is somewhat understandable), but not even manslaughter? Someone died here.

Does New York have felony murder? I'll have to look that up, but that probably wouldn't apply unless the 3 intended to burglarize the store before they went in and killed the guy.

At least it seems like the authorities are concerned about this loophole in the law. Maybe some positive cahnge will come about, but it still won't bring those 3 people to justice for killing a man.

Tort action is probably not all that useful either, what money could 3 hoods possibly have?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The DA says they don't have enough evidence to charge more than 3rd-degree assault. However, I find it hard to believe when this dude got knocked on the back of his head and died from his injuries, that they couldn't charge at least some kind of felony. I dunno about the law much, but couldn't they have at least tacked on one heavy charge and one light charge? *shrug* Or maybe the Bronx DA is incompetent.

BTW the setup is: 2 people pretend to argue. Mr. Shu steps out from behind a plexiglass protective screen to stop the fight. A third person comes by, hits Mr. Shu from the back of the head, and then the 3 rob the store and run.

<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

suresquared
11-08-2002, 03:46 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Rogmok+Nov 8 2002, 12:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rogmok @ Nov 8 2002, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and i think they did some research, and turns out not only did the suspect not have brother or father vietnam, the victim was actually a US military veteran, or something..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and it was the redneck's own son that fingered him and verified his crime to the police. The victim's name was Thung Phetakoune (http://www.aamovement.net/hatecrime/phetakoune1.html) <!--emo&<!--emo&:cry:--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cry.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cry.gif'><!--endemo-->--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cry.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cry.gif'><!--endemo-->

as for the bronx tragedy, there probably will not be enough a) political pressure or <!--emo&<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo-->--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> outcries from the "asian" community to see justice through. that's the trouble when you're a small percentage of the population with very little political or economic influence.

<!--emo&<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->

deez nuts
11-08-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by lethalweapon@Nov 8 2002, 03:40 PM
That's terrible that they can't charge murder (which is somewhat understandable), but not even manslaughter? Someone died here.

Does New York have felony murder? I'll have to look that up, but that probably wouldn't apply unless the 3 intended to burglarize the store before they went in and killed the guy.

At least it seems like the authorities are concerned about this loophole in the law. Maybe some positive cahnge will come about, but it still won't bring those 3 people to justice for killing a man.

Tort action is probably not all that useful either, what money could 3 hoods possibly have?
Lethal you kinda lost me.

I mean if there is this loophole. That's a pretty big loophole, am I right?

ren28
11-08-2002, 06:49 PM
What the hell. I can go bash some old person on the head and if he dies, I can say I did not intend to kill and get off on a much lesser charge? Am I missing something here?

UnitedChris81
11-08-2002, 07:54 PM
I think it was murder...unless the man had a pre existing injury that could have caused his death in conjunction with the head injury, then his death was a direct result of the blow...although I don't think it was intentional, it should still me invol man slaughter. Enough people push for it, and it could go the distance...just keep speaking your mind....and not just on here...everywhere.

ChinaLama
11-08-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by ren28@Nov 9 2002, 01:49 AM
What the hell. I can go bash some old person on the head and if he dies, I can say I did not intend to kill and get off on a much lesser charge? Am I missing something here?
you're not missing another, but the DA probably is. :P

lethal
11-08-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 9 2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by lethalweapon@Nov 8 2002, 03:40 PM
That's terrible that they can't charge murder (which is somewhat understandable), but not even manslaughter? &nbsp;Someone died here.

Does New York have felony murder? &nbsp;I'll have to look that up, but that probably wouldn't apply unless the 3 intended to burglarize the store before they went in and killed the guy.

At least it seems like the authorities are concerned about this loophole in the law. &nbsp;Maybe some positive cahnge will come about, but it still won't bring those 3 people to justice for killing a man.

Tort action is probably not all that useful either, what money could 3 hoods possibly have?
Lethal you kinda lost me.

I mean if there is this loophole. That's a pretty big loophole, am I right?
Let me find the New York homicide statutes.

lethal
11-08-2002, 10:37 PM
Found them. Remember, I'm not a lawyer and don't claim to be, so I have no experience with applying these statutes, but here they are.

Based on just reading these statutes, I can see at least Criminally negligent homicide if not second degree manslaughter. Any other opinions?

Sorry for the long post.


§ 125.00. Homicide defined

Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person or an unborn child with which a female has been pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, criminally negligent homicide, abortion in the first degree or self-abortion in the first degree.

§ 125.10. Criminally negligent homicide

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.

§ 125.15. Manslaughter in the second degree

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

§ 125.20. Manslaughter in the first degree

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the first degree when:

1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person; or

2. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person under circumstances which do not constitute murder because he acts under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance, as defined in paragraph (a) of subdivision one of section 125.25. The fact that homicide was committed under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance constitutes a mitigating circumstance reducing murder to manslaughter in the first degree and need not be proved in any prosecution initiated under this subdivision; or

3. He commits upon a female pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05; or

4. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical injury to a person less than eleven years old, the defendant recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of serious physical injury to such person and thereby causes the death of such person.

Manslaughter in the first degree is a class B felony.

§ 125.25. Murder in the second degree

A person is guilty of murder in the second degree when:

1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person; except that in any prosecution under this subdivision, it is an affirmative defense that:
(a) The defendant acted under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance for which there was a reasonable explanation or excuse, the reasonableness of which is to be determined from the viewpoint of a person in the defendant's situation under the circumstances as the defendant believed them to be. Nothing contained in this paragraph shall constitute a defense to a prosecution for, or preclude a conviction of, manslaughter in the first degree or any other crime; or
(<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> The defendant's conduct consisted of causing or aiding, without the use of duress or deception, another person to commit suicide. Nothing contained in this paragraph shall constitute a defense to a prosecution for, or preclude a conviction of, manslaughter in the second degree or any other crime; or

2. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of another person; or

3. Acting either alone or with one or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit robbery, burglary, kidnapping, arson, rape in the first degree, sodomy in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse, escape in the first degree, or escape in the second degree, and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of immediate flight therefrom, he, or another participant, if there be any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants; except that in any prosecution under this subdivision, in which the defendant was not the only participant in the underlying crime, it is an affirmative defense that the defendant:
(a) Did not commit the homicidal act or in any way solicit, request, command, importune, cause or aid the commission thereof; and
(<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> Was not armed with a deadly weapon, or any instrument, article or substance readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury and of a sort not ordinarily carried in public places by law-abiding persons; and
(c) Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant was armed with such a weapon, instrument, article or substance; and
(d) Had no reasonable ground to believe that any other participant intended to engage in conduct likely to result in death or serious physical injury; or

4. Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, and being eighteen years old or more the defendant recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of serious physical injury or death to another person less than eleven years old and thereby causes the death of such person.

Murder in the second degree is a class A-I felony.

§ 125.27. Murder in the first degree

A person is guilty of murder in the first degree when:

1. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person; and

(a) Either:
(i) the intended victim was a police officer as defined in subdivision 34 of section 1.20 of the criminal procedure law who was at the time of the killing engaged in the course of performing his official duties, and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the intended victim was a police officer; or
(ii) the intended victim was a peace officer as defined in paragraph a of subdivision twenty-one, subdivision twenty-three, twenty-four or sixty-two (employees of the division for youth) of section 2.10 of the criminal procedure law who was at the time of the killing engaged in the course of performing his official duties, and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the intended victim was such a uniformed court officer, parole officer, probation officer, or employee of the division for youth; or
(iii) the intended victim was an employee of a state correctional institution or was an employee of a local correctional facility as defined in subdivision two of section forty of the correction law, who was at the time of the killing engaged in the course of performing his official duties, and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the intended victim was an employee of a state correctional institution or a local correctional facility; or
(iv) at the time of the commission of the killing, the defendant was confined in a state correctional institution or was otherwise in custody upon a sentence for the term of his natural life, or upon a sentence commuted to one of natural life, or upon a sentence for an indeterminate term the minimum of which was at least fifteen years and the maximum of which was natural life, or at the time of the commission of the killing, the defendant had escaped from such confinement or custody while serving such a sentence and had not yet been returned to such confinement or custody; or
(v) the intended victim was a witness to a crime committed on a prior occasion and the death was caused for the purpose of preventing the intended victim's testimony in any criminal action or proceeding whether or not such action or proceeding had been commenced, or the intended victim had previously testified in a criminal action or proceeding and the killing was committed for the purpose of exacting retribution for such prior testimony, or the intended victim was an immediate family member of a witness to a crime committed on a prior occasion and the killing was committed for the purpose of preventing or influencing the testimony of such witness, or the intended victim was an immediate family member of a witness who had previously testified in a criminal action or proceeding and the killing was committed for the purpose of exacting retribution upon such witness for such prior testimony. As used in this subparagraph "immediate family member" means a husband, wife, father, mother, daughter, son, brother, sister, stepparent, grandparent, stepchild or grandchild; or
(vi) the defendant committed the killing or procured commission of the killing pursuant to an agreement with a person other than the intended victim to commit the same for the receipt, or in expectation of the receipt, of anything of pecuniary value from a party to the agreement or from a person other than the intended victim acting at the direction of a party to such agreement; or
(vii) the victim was killed while the defendant was in the course of committing or attempting to commit and in furtherance of robbery, burglary in the first degree or second degree, kidnapping in the first degree, arson in the first degree or second degree, rape in the first degree, sodomy in the first degree, sexual abuse in the first degree, aggravated sexual abuse in the first degree or escape in the first degree, or in the course of and furtherance of immediate flight after committing or attempting to commit any such crime or in the course of and furtherance of immediate flight after attempting to commit the crime of murder in the second degree; provided however, the victim is not a participant in one of the aforementioned crimes and, provided further that, unless the defendant's criminal liability under this subparagraph is based upon the defendant having commanded another person to cause the death of the victim or intended victim pursuant to section 20.00 of this chapter, this subparagraph shall not apply where the defendant's criminal liability is based upon the conduct of another pursuant to section 20.00 of this chapter; or
(viii) as part of the same criminal transaction, the defendant, with intent to cause serious physical injury to or the death of an additional person or persons, causes the death of an additional person or persons; provided, however, the victim is not a participant in the criminal transaction; or
(ix) prior to committing the killing, the defendant had been convicted of murder as defined in this section or section 125.25 of this article, or had been convicted in another jurisdiction of an offense which, if committed in this state, would constitute a violation of either of such sections; or
(x) the defendant acted in an especially cruel and wanton manner pursuant to a course of conduct intended to inflict and inflicting torture upon the victim prior to the victim's death. As used in this subparagraph, "torture" means the intentional and depraved infliction of extreme physical pain; "depraved" means the defendant relished the infliction of extreme physical pain upon the victim evidencing debasement or perversion or that the defendant evidenced a sense of pleasure in the infliction of extreme physical pain; or
(xi) the defendant intentionally caused the death of two or more additional persons within the state in separate criminal transactions within a period of twenty-four months when committed in a similar fashion or pursuant to a common scheme or plan; or
(xii) the intended victim was a judge as defined in subdivision twenty-three of section 1.20 of the criminal procedure law and the defendant killed such victim because such victim was, at the time of the killing, a judge; [fig 1] or
(xiii) (Added, L 2001) the victim was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism, as defined in paragraph (<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> of subdivision one of section 490.05 of this chapter; and

(<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> The defendant was more than eighteen years old at the time of the commission of the crime.

2. In any prosecution under subdivision one, it is an affirmative defense that:
(a) The defendant acted under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance for which there was a reasonable explanation or excuse, the reasonableness of which is to be determined from the viewpoint of a person in the defendant's situation under the circumstances as the defendant believed them to be. Nothing contained in this paragraph shall constitute a defense to a prosecution for, or preclude a conviction of, manslaughter in the first degree or any other crime except murder in the second degree; or
(<!--emo&B)--><img src='http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/cool.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='cool.gif'><!--endemo--> The defendant's conduct consisted of causing or aiding, without the use of duress or deception, another person to commit suicide. Nothing contained in this paragraph shall constitute a defense to a prosecution for, or preclude a conviction of, manslaughter in the second degree or any other crime except murder in the second degree.

Murder in the first degree is a class A-I felony.

Hiroshi2
11-09-2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by seryb@Nov 8 2002, 10:47 AM
A Laotian man was killed over the summer in New Hampshire. Unfortunately, I don't have the story. The white guy who killed him punched/pushed him down the stairs. The Laotian man was in his 60's.

The white guy was heard earlier in the night making anti-Asian remarks in a bar. He was tried for a hate crime, but got off on a much lesser charge. I'm gonna go look for the article and so I can post it up so everyone can see.
That pissed me off....... :pissed:

deez nuts
11-09-2002, 12:07 PM
Thanks lethal.

lethal
11-09-2002, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 9 2002, 07:07 PM
Thanks lethal.
Anytime.

ChinaLama
11-09-2002, 05:19 PM
definitely sounds like at LEAST 2nd-degree manslaughter or maybe 1st degree manslaughter. not sure if they can say 2nd degree murder, but it was a death caused during a robbery attempt.

achtungbaby
11-09-2002, 10:27 PM
Any update on this...?

lethal
11-09-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 10 2002, 12:19 AM
definitely sounds like at LEAST 2nd-degree manslaughter or maybe 1st degree manslaughter. not sure if they can say 2nd degree murder, but it was a death caused during a robbery attempt.
I agree, 2nd degree manslaughter. Definitely criminally negligent homicide at the very, very least. That carries a 4 year term.

1st degree manslaughter is harder because of the intent problem. I don't think they can prove that the guy intended to cause serious bodily harm with one punch.

2nd degree murder for causing a death while committing a named felony (also know as felony murder, which I alluded to before), is a possibility. However, the intent of the youths had to be to commit that felony (in this case burglary, but maybe robbery as well). That might be hard to prove, but I think it can be shown since they came back and took liquor from the store after they killed the owner.

But like I disclaimed, I'm not a lawyer, just a lowly law student...what do I know about the law?

ChinaLama
11-09-2002, 11:26 PM
don't have any updates yet. if i receive any, i'll respond.

Hmm intent to rob-- according to news accounts, the argument was staged so that a third person could come and knock the dude out, and the three then robbed the store. i believe they were caught while robbing ANOTHER store.

blkazngirl
11-11-2002, 09:46 AM
Gotta get more people involved. But you also know that alot of people are afraid of retaliation. "I don't want any trouble."

Right is right and wrong is wrong. People gotta realize that they can't continue to do things and not get caught.

achtungbaby
11-12-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by blkazngirl@Nov 11 2002, 08:46 AM
People gotta realize that they can't continue to do things and not get caught.
Like District Attorneys, for example.

jimbo
11-23-2002, 03:20 AM
I guess there were no security camera's in the store then?