Asian girls trying to have White Eyes

[Gold Man]

Someone told me that in Korea, over 90% of the Korean females have the eyelid surgery to make them look less KOREAN. Do Korean females hate themselves? Are they a self-hating people?

Its like everyone gets in in High School. Why do Korean girls want to look more White? I find their eyes very attractive the way they are before the eyelid surgery.

Do Korean guys also get the eyelid surgery?

How about Korean females in America? Do they get their eyes "fixed"?

[seryb]

I don't really know much about the topic, but I think your 90% statistic is a little too much.

That's a good question about if guys get the surgery done, too. Someone must know. Tell us!

[wylin]

its a common procedure done by alot of girls in korea and taiwan/hk/japan to make themselves have double eye lids. But sumtimes after the procedure u can tell from the scar tissue or they went overboard w/ the folds and they got "goldfish eyes"

-japanese males this is a popular surgery, for korean men i never seen one w/ it.

personally i think its a waste... why dececrate ur national/ethnic identity to look cool.

[ChinaLama]

shrugs. i kinda agree w/ wylin. But I hope this doesn't make people think ALL Asians have epicanthic folds...a lot of us are naturally born w/ so-called "white" eyes. :)

[DaBestSpooner]

some girls do look better with double eyelid

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I have big double-lidded (ssangkopool?) eyes and I wish I had monolids (epicanthic folds?) 'cause I think they look better. It goes both ways :P but I guess that might be hard to believe since you never hear about anyone going under the knife to eliminate one of their thingies/lids.

[Gold Man]

In my opinion, I think monolid girls are much cuter.

[angel nympho]

Not 90% but a hell of a lot. And it's a practice that's WAY widely accepted. But I don't think they're consciously doing it to look White. It's just a thing where people out there like big eyes. Given, yeah, it's a white characteristic, but I don't think people out there do it so they can "LOOK MORE WHITE."

[angel nympho]

^-- I'd do it just to have a place to put some eyeshadow. =T

[deez nuts]

I always thought that the dual eyelids was a trait of beauty in Korean culture. That's what my Plastic Surgeon friend, my korean friends and my girl says. As a matter of fact her younger sister was offered to have her eyes done on her 18th b-day by her parents.

I know quite a few Korean women who have come to the hospital to consult about this procedure. I don't think it's a white thing at all, more of a Korean culture thing.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 11:52 PM
I always thought that the dual eyelids was a trait of beauty in Korean culture. That's what my Plastic Surgeon friend, my korean friends and my girl says. As a matter of fact her younger sister was offered to have her eyes done on her 18th b-day by her parents.

I know quite a few Korean women who have come to the hospital to consult about this procedure. I don't think it's a white thing at all, more of a Korean culture thing.
but could this "Korean" culture be a result of being under Western influence and, to some extent, American military domination? I think a little historical comparison b/w standards for beauty in say 19th century or 17th century Korea vs 20th Century Korea would be useful. Cuz if it really is response to Western culture, then maybe it can be argued, an entire nation (or entire nations) have learned to hate their own appearances.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 6 2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 11:52 PM
I always thought that the dual eyelids was a trait of beauty in Korean culture. That's what my Plastic Surgeon friend, my korean friends and my girl says. As a matter of fact her younger sister was offered to have her eyes done on her 18th b-day by her parents.

I know quite a few Korean women who have come to the hospital to consult about this procedure. I don't think it's a white thing at all, more of a Korean culture thing.
but could this "Korean" culture be a result of being under Western influence and, to some extent, American military domination? I think a little historical comparison b/w standards for beauty in say 19th century or 17th century Korea vs 20th Century Korea would be useful. Cuz if it really is response to Western culture, then maybe it can be argued, an entire nation (or entire nations) have learned to hate their own appearances.
Maybe they don't hate their own *non-western* appearances. Maybe they just hate their appearances, just like every woman on the fucking PLANET. Does it really matter WHY people think that the double-eyelid thing is pretty? They just do. Not everything's about race. 'Cuz I don't think white people think the double-eyelids are all special and pretty or anything. I think, for the most part, nobody even notices, except Asians.

[DaBestSpooner]

better white eyes than black eyes

[karizma]

>> why have all the topics lately been focused on asian girls being this or asian girls being that...sheesh. you make us seem like materialistic shallow bitches that only care about our looks =/...cant there be like a topic..."why are asian girls SO cool?" hahaha...

>> funny...there was this white girl i was talking to and she was like "asians have such pretty eyes!! i wish i had asian eyes" .... :blink: okay man...thats great...*walks away*

>> i got the double eyelid thing going on and i like it because i think id look a little funny without the folds and its easier to apply makeup.

>> my auntie used to poke her eyelids with a toothpick just so she could train her lids to fold...how weird right? so its not only a korean thing...she's like wow howd you get your eyelids like that?! 0_o...umm they grew that way auntie...

[wylin]

most taiwanese girls i know have double eyelids maybe they (the mainlanders, korean and japanese ppl who do this) are just trying to emulate us taiwanese... cuz we're better! right chinalama and sunwukang =P just had to put that in.

but seriouslly its an emulation thing sum korean women do have natural double eyelids and its considered pretty. hence the ones w/o try to emulate. Same w/ taiwanese girls who dont have big eyelids or folds.

[karizma]

most taiwanese girls i know have double eyelids maybe they are just trying to emulate us taiwanese...

>> theyre trying to imitate themselves?

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 6 2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 11:52 PM
I always thought that the dual eyelids was a trait of beauty in Korean culture. That's what my Plastic Surgeon friend, my korean friends and my girl says. As a matter of fact her younger sister was offered to have her eyes done on her 18th b-day by her parents.

I know quite a few Korean women who have come to the hospital to consult about this procedure. I don't think it's a white thing at all, more of a Korean culture thing.
but could this "Korean" culture be a result of being under Western influence and, to some extent, American military domination? I think a little historical comparison b/w standards for beauty in say 19th century or 17th century Korea vs 20th Century Korea would be useful. Cuz if it really is response to Western culture, then maybe it can be argued, an entire nation (or entire nations) have learned to hate their own appearances.
Maybe they don't hate their own *non-western* appearances. Maybe they just hate their appearances, just like every woman on the fucking PLANET. Does it really matter WHY people think that the double-eyelid thing is pretty? They just do. Not everything's about race. 'Cuz I don't think white people think the double-eyelids are all special and pretty or anything. I think, for the most part, nobody even notices, except Asians.
ummm when people say "olive eyes" or "slanted eyes" or "slitty eyes" or whatever about Asian people, I think Asian eyes are VERY noticed.

alt ironically, for me, the first time i personally became very conscious over other ppl's eyes is when we had this discussion over eyelid surgery in an asian american studies class, and i noticed i didn't have monolids. so that's the first time i noticed ppl w/ monolids had smaller eyes or whatever. I guess anti-racist discussions just end up making me more racist -- i'm a natural-born bigot. :(

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 7 2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 6 2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 11:52 PM
I always thought that the dual eyelids was a trait of beauty in Korean culture. That's what my Plastic Surgeon friend, my korean friends and my girl says. As a matter of fact her younger sister was offered to have her eyes done on her 18th b-day by her parents.

I know quite a few Korean women who have come to the hospital to consult about this procedure. I don't think it's a white thing at all, more of a Korean culture thing.
but could this "Korean" culture be a result of being under Western influence and, to some extent, American military domination? I think a little historical comparison b/w standards for beauty in say 19th century or 17th century Korea vs 20th Century Korea would be useful. Cuz if it really is response to Western culture, then maybe it can be argued, an entire nation (or entire nations) have learned to hate their own appearances.
Maybe they don't hate their own *non-western* appearances. Maybe they just hate their appearances, just like every woman on the fucking PLANET. Does it really matter WHY people think that the double-eyelid thing is pretty? They just do. Not everything's about race. 'Cuz I don't think white people think the double-eyelids are all special and pretty or anything. I think, for the most part, nobody even notices, except Asians.
ummm when people say "olive eyes" or "slanted eyes" or "slitty eyes" or whatever about Asian people, I think Asian eyes are VERY noticed.

alt ironically, for me, the first time i personally became very conscious over other ppl's eyes is when we had this discussion over eyelid surgery in an asian american studies class, and i noticed i didn't have monolids. so that's the first time i noticed ppl w/ monolids had smaller eyes or whatever. I guess anti-racist discussions just end up making me more racist -- i'm a natural-born bigot. :(
*shrug* I've tried to point it out to some white people before... that they have double eyelids and I don't. They didn't get what I was talking about at ALL.

SMALL eyes and EYELIDS don't have that much to do with each other, I don't think. But jeeze, who cares... you and I can both admit that when people's eyes are way too small, they look weird. Some people like big eyes, some people like small eyes, some people like big noses, some people like small noses.... why does this have to be about race? It's more about appearance than anything else.

If we were talking shit about big noses, it's not the same as talking shit on Russians or some other race with big noses as a characteristic.

[deez nuts]

Nope I honestly believe it's not always about a white thing. It's construed as a white thing because the procedure itself involves some widening the diameter of the skin surrounding the eyes. But that's mostly to pull the skin fold downwards so it can form a crease. The purpose of blepharoplasty (double eyelid procedure) itself is to form that crease, the need to widen the eyes is just necessary to facilitate it. There's a whole another procedure just to widen the eyes, without forming that crease. Just forming that crease is extra money so why spend it, if you wanna just have wider and more westernized eyes.

I've been hit up about this procedure alot.

On the other, the Southern Mogolian who left in Indonesia with the features of squared face, thick eyebrows, big eyes with double eyelids, short nose and thick lips moved toward north along the coastline but about the time of the movement, when they partly influenced Korean figure, more studies should be done.


http://www.sac.or.kr/eng/face/origin.html

Like angel says it's not always a white/asian thing, but just a beauty thing.

But all in all, it's just my experience with it. I'm not Korean, just dating one. So, I don't claim to know everything about this, just what I've been told and the procedure itself.

[wylin]

the OG korean there look funky like cavemen or monkeys in CB's link....

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 12:36 AM


If we were talking shit about big noses, it's not the same as talking shit on Russians or some other race with big noses as a characteristic.
ok, i agree talking about small eyes per se isn't the same thing as being racist, but if it's "you ASIANS have small slitty eyes" then i think it is race-toned, just like when people say "Jews have big noses" or "Blacks have big lips," that's race-toned. and i think maybe SOME surgery cases are really just about beauty or convenience, but a lot of it proly does revolve around not having "Asian eyes" and trying to be more conformable to the general beauty standards, aka white standards. I mean if THAT many people get eyelid surgery (50 or 90 or whatever huge percentage), can it really just be for health or pragmatic or innocent beauty reasons?

[BeTheReds]

Okay...

first, there are reasons as to why people have this misconception.

1. Korean Plastic Surgeons advertise heavily. They even have a weekly TV show about it, and it is shown internationally (Taiwan, Japan, HK)


Why do they do this? Prepare to hear my lecture of South Korean economics and marketing strategies.

A- The South Korean economy basically sucked ass after the Korean war and did not show any real sign of improvement until the USA got involved in Vietnam and needed a place from which to stage and build military equipment. Just as they used Japan for such purposes during the Korean war, (and jumpstarting the Japanese economy in the process) they felt that creating an infrastructure for South Korea in the same way would be beneficial to both countries to achieve their aims.

B- Since the economy was slow for so long, few Koreans studied to become plastic surgeons, as plastic surgery is a frivolous expense for people who by Korean standards would have had to have been considerably wealthy in order to afford such luxuries.

C- Japan had a head start on Korea economically because of the Korean war as stated above. Japan's economy started to be considered important in the 1960's As people were more readily able to afford luxuries like plastic surgery, more Japanese began to study to become plastic surgeons.

D- The Korean economy gets to the point where the upper middle class can afford plastic surgery, but all the good doctors with experience are in Japan. Many Koreans who want sangapul surgery go to Japan for the experienced doctors.

E- As the Korean economy gets better and better, people notice that almost all plastic surgery is done overseas. More Koreans begin to become plastic surgeons. Even during the 1980s however, most Koreans who want the surgery go to Japan to get it done. The plastic surgeons in Korea see this as an obstacle to getting cashflow. So, what do they do? Advertise heavily including with their own tv show that gives people the idea that big ass eyes are better. Meanwhile they want to steal customers away from Japan so they market heavily there as the cheaper alternative. People watch the tv show and see in magazines and instantly think that all Koreans get sangapul. They also heavily advertise in other countries with yellow people that want big eyes. This forms a stereotype that is commonly accepted in the Asian world.

Koreans love plastic surgery.
It is common for people to get it.

How is this false...

I'd define common as 30% of the people doing it. But that's rediculously high in my opinion. Still for the sake of argument, lets use 30%.

Many people have this perception of Korea that it is all Seoul.. and if they have visited Korea, they have not visited anywhere else. The people who get the treatment tend to live in cities. I seriously doubt if a country girl in Cholla do gives a shit what her eyes look like. maybe 1/3 of Korea's population lives in cities. (I know for a fact that 1/4th of it lives in Seoul)

so.. the concepted 30% is actually 1/3rd of that number. 10%

Now... women get the surgery much more than men. Few men even get it at all unless they are celebs or in show business something. You can work an office job and be butt ugly in a male dominated society. so halve the number cuz data for men is insignificant. 5%

Now, take away the percentage for the poor.. now take away the percentage for the elderly who also probably couldn't care less what they looked like anymore. And if we are talking about sangapul (eyelids) alone take away the data for all other plastic surgerys like face lifts and tummy tucks.

The number is even less.

Please realize that this misconception is due to agressive advertising, and a result of historical and economic factors. Koreans themselves may tell you that their culture has always liked the big ass eyes, but they only believe so because of the advertisments and celebs who get it done. For every Korean who likes eye surgery, there are probably 2 more who don't.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 7 2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 12:36 AM


If we were talking shit about big noses, it's not the same as talking shit on Russians or some other race with big noses as a characteristic.
ok, i agree talking about small eyes per se isn't the same thing as being racist, but if it's "you ASIANS have small slitty eyes" then i think it is race-toned, just like when people say "Jews have big noses" or "Blacks have big lips," that's race-toned. and i think maybe SOME surgery cases are really just about beauty or convenience, but a lot of it proly does revolve around not having "Asian eyes" and trying to be more conformable to the general beauty standards, aka white standards. I mean if THAT many people get eyelid surgery (50 or 90 or whatever huge percentage), can it really just be for health or pragmatic or innocent beauty reasons?
Okay, I guess that's your opinion. But my best friend got her eyes done, and she never ONCE said "I want white eyes." She said it was just something she wanted to do. If it's ANYBODY's beauty standards we're talking about with the double eyelid thing, it's KOREAN beauty standards. That's why Korean has a word for it, and English doesn't. White people don't give a FUCK about having an extra eyelid thing, KOREAN people stress it. Sure, maybe it IS to conform to general beauty standards, but in Korea, those beauty standards are KOREAN.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 6 2002, 07:54 PM

Okay, I guess that's your opinion. But my best friend got her eyes done, and she never ONCE said "I want white eyes." She said it was just something she wanted to do. If it's ANYBODY's beauty standards we're talking about with the double eyelid thing, it's KOREAN beauty standards. That's why Korean has a word for it, and English doesn't. White people don't give a FUCK about having an extra eyelid thing, KOREAN people stress it. Sure, maybe it IS to conform to general beauty standards, but in Korea, those beauty standards are KOREAN.
Yah I'm with her. That would explain why any questions about this procedure has only been asked to me by Korean women. No Chinese,no Japanese or any other Asian women have ever asked me or consulted with me about blepharoplasty. But, I'm just one MD in a big NYC hospital.

[mrazntre]

I me have got double two eyelids.

[MellowDrama]

Big up to BeTheReds for dispelling the rumors. Personally, I just say you should go with what you were born with, but that's just me.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by MellowDrama@Nov 7 2002, 03:37 AM
Big up to BeTheReds for dispelling the rumors. Personally, I just say you should go with what you were born with, but that's just me.
Wow, I am glad someone noticed. Everyone else was trying to talk about their little aesthetic quibbles.

[seryb]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 6 2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by MellowDrama@Nov 7 2002, 03:37 AM
Big up to BeTheReds for dispelling the rumors.  Personally, I just say you should go with what you were born with, but that's just me.
Wow, I am glad someone noticed. Everyone else was trying to talk about their little aesthetic quibbles.
That was some good info. I wondered if men got it, too so you've answered that question. :)

[loserbutt]

Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs :)

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 7 2002, 06:23 PM
Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs :)
hey tell us how you really feel.

[amietron]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 04:58 PM
If it's ANYBODY's beauty standards we're talking about with the double eyelid thing, it's KOREAN beauty standards. That's why Korean has a word for it, and English doesn't. White people don't give a FUCK about having an extra eyelid thing, KOREAN people stress it. Sure, maybe it IS to conform to general beauty standards, but in Korea, those beauty standards are KOREAN.
what word are you talking about?

[karizma]

Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs  

>> i think we found the next boycott folks!!

[Omega]

hey since we are on the subjects of eyes, when i was young like around 1 or so, i was dropped on my head a lot and now one of my eyes is bigger then the other or should i say one doesnt open up more than the other one normally......ill let u decide......

http://www.geocities.com/chibibob_1/eyes.jpg

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by amietron@Nov 8 2002, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 04:58 PM
If it's ANYBODY's beauty standards we're talking about with the double eyelid thing, it's KOREAN beauty standards. That's why Korean has a word for it, and English doesn't. White people don't give a FUCK about having an extra eyelid thing, KOREAN people stress it. Sure, maybe it IS to conform to general beauty standards, but in Korea, those beauty standards are KOREAN.
what word are you talking about?
ssang-ga-pul.


As opposed to vague terms like "errr... double eyelid thing?"

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 8 2002, 02:23 AM
Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs :)
Yeah, baby. :unsure:

[amietron]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by amietron@Nov 8 2002, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 04:58 PM
If it's ANYBODY's beauty standards we're talking about with the double eyelid thing, it's KOREAN beauty standards. That's why Korean has a word for it, and English doesn't. White people don't give a FUCK about having an extra eyelid thing, KOREAN people stress it. Sure, maybe it IS to conform to general beauty standards, but in Korea, those beauty standards are KOREAN.
what word are you talking about?
ssang-ga-pul.


As opposed to vague terms like "errr... double eyelid thing?"
ohh. =)

in japanese, it's called futamabuta.

[Gold Man]

The basic reason why Asian females want big round "caucasian" eyes is because they think that "Asian eyes" are ugly. It is not a cultural or national thing that some of you have mentioned, it is a self-hatred and self-disrespect issue about themselves. They just feel that Whites are superior and will readily have sex with one in order to snag him so they can get married and have "cute babies" as their female friends have told them about.

I don't see Asian males as having this self-hatred problem to the extend that they have to get eye surgery.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Gold Man@Nov 8 2002, 07:26 AM
The basic reason why Asian females want big round "caucasian" eyes is because they think that "Asian eyes" are ugly. It is not a cultural or national thing that some of you have mentioned, it is a self-hatred and self-disrespect issue about themselves. They just feel that Whites are superior and will readily have sex with one in order to snag him so they can get married and have "cute babies" as their female friends have told them about.

I don't see Asian males as having this self-hatred problem to the extend that they have to get eye surgery.
Again, I don't think they are deliberately doing it thinking "OHHH YEAHH, this will make me look WHITE!" That would just be retarded. Are you going to go ahead and tell me that you can read what's in the thoughts of an entire nation?

[BeTheReds]

Dammit! IT's a freakin stereotype people!

IT'S AN ADVERTISING STRATEGY! NOT EVERYONE DOES IT!

When they advertise they are not saying hey people let's look white so we can be white like our wonderful American friends.

I don't think anyone thinks that big eyes on a Korean girl makes her look White at all Are you suggesting that if a Korean girl gat the sanggapul surgery then you couldn't distinguish her from a white girl?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 8 2002, 07:50 AM
Dammit! IT's a freakin stereotype people!

IT'S AN ADVERTISING STRATEGY! NOT EVERYONE DOES IT!

When they advertise they are not saying hey people let's look white so we can be white like our wonderful American friends.

I don't think anyone thinks that big eyes on a Korean girl makes her look White at all Are you suggesting that if a Korean girl gat the sanggapul surgery then you couldn't distinguish her from a white girl?
Werd. I don't even think it makes girls look remotely MORE white. Nope. Nope. Nope.

[Arex]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 8 2002, 07:50 AM
Dammit!  IT's a freakin stereotype people!

IT'S AN ADVERTISING STRATEGY!  NOT EVERYONE DOES IT!

When they advertise they are not saying hey people let's look white so we can be white like our wonderful American friends.

I don't think anyone thinks that big eyes on a Korean girl makes her look White at all  Are you suggesting that if a Korean girl gat the sanggapul surgery then you couldn't distinguish her from a white girl?
Werd. I don't even think it makes girls look remotely MORE white. Nope. Nope. Nope.
I don't see why it's so hard to believe/accept that even if the girls/women who undergo this surgery aren't consciously "wanting to be white," they may simply (probably?) have subconsciously adopted western standards of beauty.


Alex

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 8 2002, 02:50 AM
Dammit! IT's a freakin stereotype people!

IT'S AN ADVERTISING STRATEGY! NOT EVERYONE DOES IT!

When they advertise they are not saying hey people let's look white so we can be white like our wonderful American friends.

I don't think anyone thinks that big eyes on a Korean girl makes her look White at all Are you suggesting that if a Korean girl gat the sanggapul surgery then you couldn't distinguish her from a white girl?
Werd.

And again blepharoplasty (double eyelid surgery) the procedure itself requires the plastic surgeon to widen the eyes a little, so it can facilitate the formation of the crease. There is a whole other procedure just to widen the eyes that costs less.

So hypothetically:

Crease fold on the eyelid: $1200

or

widen the eyes: $800

if you just want wider eyes why opt for the first one and set yourself back $400?

We are still talking about ssang-ga-pul? If not, I feel like a total idiot.

Thanks for the dispelling some of the rumors and the hype, BTR.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Gold Man@Nov 8 2002, 02:26 AM
The basic reason why Asian females want big round "caucasian" eyes is because they think that "Asian eyes" are ugly. It is not a cultural or national thing that some of you have mentioned, it is a self-hatred and self-disrespect issue about themselves. They just feel that Whites are superior and will readily have sex with one in order to snag him so they can get married and have "cute babies" as their female friends have told them about.

I don't see Asian males as having this self-hatred problem to the extend that they have to get eye surgery.
are you aware that jacky chan got the same surgery done years ago?

[wylin]

Originally posted by karizma@Nov 7 2002, 06:43 PM
Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs

>> i think we found the next boycott folks!!
lol dude u forgot to metion that 40% of the country goes to PC bang/ rooms and plays CS or battlenet games. thats because koreans being sttubborn would not allow japanese made products in their country for fear of public out cry (WW2) or maybe that the public will see that those japanese products are superior...eitherway they were denied game systems and have turned themselves into the worlds largest pc game market.

[artsfartsyjanet]

I'm ALWAYS skepticle when I hear about statistics being thrown around and around without considering where the actual source of it is, the population sample, and whether it is actually legitimate. Please provide actual evidence of research we can all evaluate and critically analyze before implying or assuming anything about a particular population. Thanks.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Arex@Nov 8 2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 7 2002, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 8 2002, 07:50 AM
Dammit! IT's a freakin stereotype people!

IT'S AN ADVERTISING STRATEGY! NOT EVERYONE DOES IT!

When they advertise they are not saying hey people let's look white so we can be white like our wonderful American friends.

I don't think anyone thinks that big eyes on a Korean girl makes her look White at all Are you suggesting that if a Korean girl gat the sanggapul surgery then you couldn't distinguish her from a white girl?
Werd. I don't even think it makes girls look remotely MORE white. Nope. Nope. Nope.
I don't see why it's so hard to believe/accept that even if the girls/women who undergo this surgery aren't consciously "wanting to be white," they may simply (probably?) have subconsciously adopted western standards of beauty.


Alex
I don't see why it's so hard to believe/accept that maybe these girls are submitting to the standards of beauty imposed on them from THEIR OWN NATION. They don't LIVE in America, so why would they care if they looked *AMERICAN*? Get over your American egos, guys. People who live in other areas aren't always wishing they were more western.

[SunWuKong]

i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either. if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc? the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 8 2002, 08:58 PM
i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either. if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc? the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.
Werd. And what would be the point of this Asian ethnocentricism that I seem to observe fairly often?

[Green_Jade]

I kinda have double eye lids..or did when I was younger, but as I got older... my eyelids kinda got saggy. So there isn't one clear crease...i got many lil' ones. So I dont have a monolids or double lids.. I just have lots of skin on my lids.. enough I can *form* my eye lids to a full double lid or a monolid.... few seconds at a time..

But I remember when I lived in Korea,...how much american values/products/ect..were so,... looked upon, by my peers. They talked the talk of korean pride, but when it came down to things...it was different. The kids made fun of me a whole lot because I'd bring kimchee for banchan for lunch... in korea..*sigh* While they would be like...oh i brought cheese..

I remember this girl bringing *pancakes* (haha, right, the real thing...) for lunch and how she boosted how great it was and how much she loves it... I donno, i read korean newspapers, see the entertaintment section and think, What are they doing? One day they are cursing Americans/Culture for the falults yet...look at what the youth are exposed to..... I mean, I've read how elementary children cringe at korean food, yet, drool over burgers and such... I can't say I wasnt like that, but I never would turn face from smelling kimchee or any traditional korean food... Never did when I was young.

Even my own family... One particular uncle of ours...related by marriage, thank god,...i hate that man... used to make fun of my brother and I because our skin tone was darker than his. He uttered pharases such as "hey, when you goto america, you'll be better accepted, because you guys are almost black! get it? hahahah" I've been picked on about my skintone most of my stay in korea...To a kid, that does not help rooting and valuing her own ethnicity and culture, fourtunatly,...I developed thick skin for words...and didn't take them too seriously. But I want to goback and slap them for saying such a horrible racist-ish statement.... Sincde when is paler skin better? like..back in the day when the rich sat on their lil' butts and the poor worked outside? puh.

[amietron]

Originally posted by artzygrrl@Nov 8 2002, 09:20 PM
Sincde when is paler skin better? like..back in the day when the rich sat on their lil' butts and the poor worked outside? puh.
I'd actually beg to differ. Sure, it may be a mostly old-school type thing to value pale skin to tanned skin, but a lot of values are retained through the generations. I know my grandparents like pale skin better, even my mom's friends.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by wylin@Nov 8 2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by karizma@Nov 7 2002, 06:43 PM
Koreans are seriously fucked up. They have eyelid surgery because they want to look white, 1 in 10 play an online massive multiplayer online roleplaying game, Lineage, because their society is so restrictive that that is the only way for them to express themselves, and umm, they eat dogs

>> i think we found the next boycott folks!!
lol dude u forgot to metion that 40% of the country goes to PC bang/ rooms and plays CS or battlenet games. thats because koreans being sttubborn would not allow japanese made products in their country for fear of public out cry (WW2) or maybe that the public will see that those japanese products are superior...eitherway they were denied game systems and have turned themselves into the worlds largest pc game market.
maybe koreans are whiticizing cuz they're so used to playing white ppl's games? ;)

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 8 2002, 08:58 PM
i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either. if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc? the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.
sorry dude, but watching stephen chow movies and all the AMERICAN pop culture references they make, I gotta say...there's a reason why people call Hong Kongers honkies. :)

[loserbutt]

jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:28 AM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard
So... you're saying that the reason women get eyelid surgery... is because of white people? Jeeze, sometimes I think you guys give WAY too much credit to white people. If they knew they could single-handedly raise surgery rates in other countries, they'd be so proud. :*)

Wouldn't you think that Asians in AMERICA are more affected by Western beauty ideals than Asians overseas? ...and way more Asians overseas get this surgery done than they do here. ...Which leads me back to my original thought that the beauty ideals they are trying to fit into are theirs, not ours.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:28 AM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard
So... you're saying that the reason women get eyelid surgery... is because of white people? Jeeze, sometimes I think you guys give WAY too much credit to white people. If they knew they could single-handedly raise surgery rates in other countries, they'd be so proud. :*)

Wouldn't you think that Asians in AMERICA are more affected by Western beauty ideals than Asians overseas? ...and way more Asians overseas get this surgery done than they do here. ...Which leads me back to my original thought that the beauty ideals they are trying to fit into are theirs, not ours.
errr asians in asia are prettyy whiticized. i mean all their pop music include random english lyrics, some of which don't make sense. i think you give white people too LITTLE credit. i mean they're the ones who brought down the greatest civilizations in the world. everyone's governed by white ideals now (except maybe islamic states...maybe even them): ie, democracy, communism, military states, basically all european politicial ideologies. japanese has WAY more english cognates than the other way around. i wouldn't be surprised if japanese had more english cognates than chinese cognates.

[loserbutt]

well over here its just not advertised/public as it is over there. a good example of people striving to fit western ideals, even westerners, are breast implants. btw, I bet that if we had advertisements for eyelid reduction surgery in the US, it would skyrocket

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:38 AM
well over here its just not advertised/public as it is over there. a good example of people striving to fit western ideals, even westerners, are breast implants. btw, I bet that if we had advertisements for eyelid reduction surgery in the US, it would skyrocket
why yes it is as advertised. all the korean mommies go around telling their daughters all about it. i've never known a SINGLE korean person who DOESN'T know that the surgery is an option to her. they just don't practice it as widely. not enough doctors? but either way, in korea it's like this huge thing that's like.. "OHH lets go do it right now!" the way people in america are about getting pierced. but over here, its like this huge deal. nobody wants it done, and nobody admits to doing it.

and i think huge boobies are appealing to ANY race.

[loserbutt]

big boobies? not really, in some parts of the world people have breast reduction surgeries

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 10 2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:28 AM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard
So... you're saying that the reason women get eyelid surgery... is because of white people? Jeeze, sometimes I think you guys give WAY too much credit to white people. If they knew they could single-handedly raise surgery rates in other countries, they'd be so proud. :*)

Wouldn't you think that Asians in AMERICA are more affected by Western beauty ideals than Asians overseas? ...and way more Asians overseas get this surgery done than they do here. ...Which leads me back to my original thought that the beauty ideals they are trying to fit into are theirs, not ours.
errr asians in asia are prettyy whiticized. i mean all their pop music include random english lyrics, some of which don't make sense. i think you give white people too LITTLE credit. i mean they're the ones who brought down the greatest civilizations in the world. everyone's governed by white ideals now (except maybe islamic states...maybe even them): ie, democracy, communism, military states, basically all european politicial ideologies. japanese has WAY more english cognates than the other way around. i wouldn't be surprised if japanese had more english cognates than chinese cognates.
well, i don't think thats the influence of white people. english is a pretty universal language (err, it's as close as we can get to one) and i think that is the reason why there's english words in diff languages and in songs n stuff. b/c everybody is expected to know english if you want to succeed in foreign affairs... they teach it to kids in other countries. that's not the influence of WHITE people, that's the influence of AMERICA. and as it was so finely stated in other threads... america does not equal WHITE. the english language does not belong to white people.

and things like democracy, communism, etc... i don't think those things belong to white people, either.

[LT25]

The first thing I notice a bout a woman is her eyes... honest. they really are the windows to our souls. If she has nice eyes, I'm putty in her hands ;) . We had/have a few girls (teens) where I worked (Boston's Chinatown) who wore colored contacts. I thought it looked creepy :P If a girl I met had surgery on her eyes, I'd kinda feel the same way about it as if I had surgery on my penis... why?! :confused:

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 10 2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:28 AM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard
So... you're saying that the reason women get eyelid surgery... is because of white people? Jeeze, sometimes I think you guys give WAY too much credit to white people. If they knew they could single-handedly raise surgery rates in other countries, they'd be so proud. :*)

Wouldn't you think that Asians in AMERICA are more affected by Western beauty ideals than Asians overseas? ...and way more Asians overseas get this surgery done than they do here. ...Which leads me back to my original thought that the beauty ideals they are trying to fit into are theirs, not ours.
errr asians in asia are prettyy whiticized. i mean all their pop music include random english lyrics, some of which don't make sense. i think you give white people too LITTLE credit. i mean they're the ones who brought down the greatest civilizations in the world. everyone's governed by white ideals now (except maybe islamic states...maybe even them): ie, democracy, communism, military states, basically all european politicial ideologies. japanese has WAY more english cognates than the other way around. i wouldn't be surprised if japanese had more english cognates than chinese cognates.
well, i don't think thats the influence of white people. english is a pretty universal language (err, it's as close as we can get to one) and i think that is the reason why there's english words in diff languages and in songs n stuff. b/c everybody is expected to know english if you want to succeed in foreign affairs... they teach it to kids in other countries. that's not the influence of WHITE people, that's the influence of AMERICA. and as it was so finely stated in other threads... america does not equal WHITE. the english language does not belong to white people.

and things like democracy, communism, etc... i don't think those things belong to white people, either.
english was universalized because of the British empire (thats why so many foreigners use mum instead of mom, spell colour instead of color, etc), and the British empire was run by white people.

communism, the original ideas, were all formulated by Europeans. Same w/ democracy, capitalism, etc (alt i guess ome ppl may argue Greeks were black but that's immaterial b/c the ideas were passed down by white ppl).



So in this sense, using the word "White" in the broad sense of someone of european descent, i think our entire modern white culture is white. I think we have to face it rather than deny it, we're all oreos and twinkies, no matter how much we try to separate our culture from white ppl's. Imperialism's and other ideas' effects have spread too far. How many African countries are governed by tribes? Even Asian monarchies are usually constitutional monarchies. And in any case, most places practice some kind of capitalism or socialism, both European-rooted systems.


BTW i don't think anything "belongs" to white ppl but i do confidently say almost everything we have now is primarily shaped by or originated w/ white people. So in that sense, we're living in a very white world. :)

[enygma]

i know girls here want to have the surgery because my sister is one of them. she goes around wearing the "sahng-gah peul" tape and thinks that they're not noticeable.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 9 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 8 2002, 08:58 PM
i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either.  if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.  

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc?  the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.
sorry dude, but watching stephen chow movies and all the AMERICAN pop culture references they make, I gotta say...there's a reason why people call Hong Kongers honkies. :)
i don't remember them doing that...?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 9 2002, 08:28 PM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof?
dude, it's common knowledge.

look for it on google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22jackie+chan%22+eyelids+surgery)

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 11 2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 9 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 8 2002, 08:58 PM
i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either. if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc? the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.
sorry dude, but watching stephen chow movies and all the AMERICAN pop culture references they make, I gotta say...there's a reason why people call Hong Kongers honkies. :)
i don't remember them doing that...?
Shaolin Soccer: Thriller (Michael Jackson) parody * not to mention that ALL of Shaolin Soccer is basically a sports-centered Matrix remake.

Back to School Fight 2: Bart Simpson mask, maybe another MJ parody (Beat It?)

Ok, I haven't seen that many Stephen Chow movies, so i dunno about any others, not off the top of my head anyway. :)

[DaBestSpooner]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 9 2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 10 2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by loserbutt@Nov 10 2002, 01:28 AM
jackie chan had it done? wow who woulda known? wheres your proof? Any other celebs have it done? I get the feeling Lucy LIu had it too

and while the girls having the surgery done may not go there thinking "I'm going to look white" at least subcounsciously they are being influenced by a Western beauty standard
So... you're saying that the reason women get eyelid surgery... is because of white people? Jeeze, sometimes I think you guys give WAY too much credit to white people. If they knew they could single-handedly raise surgery rates in other countries, they'd be so proud. :*)

Wouldn't you think that Asians in AMERICA are more affected by Western beauty ideals than Asians overseas? ...and way more Asians overseas get this surgery done than they do here. ...Which leads me back to my original thought that the beauty ideals they are trying to fit into are theirs, not ours.
errr asians in asia are prettyy whiticized. i mean all their pop music include random english lyrics, some of which don't make sense. i think you give white people too LITTLE credit. i mean they're the ones who brought down the greatest civilizations in the world. everyone's governed by white ideals now (except maybe islamic states...maybe even them): ie, democracy, communism, military states, basically all european politicial ideologies. japanese has WAY more english cognates than the other way around. i wouldn't be surprised if japanese had more english cognates than chinese cognates.
well, i don't think thats the influence of white people. english is a pretty universal language (err, it's as close as we can get to one) and i think that is the reason why there's english words in diff languages and in songs n stuff. b/c everybody is expected to know english if you want to succeed in foreign affairs... they teach it to kids in other countries. that's not the influence of WHITE people, that's the influence of AMERICA. and as it was so finely stated in other threads... america does not equal WHITE. the english language does not belong to white people.

and things like democracy, communism, etc... i don't think those things belong to white people, either.
have people forgotten that english for the most part is a novelty in asia?

[SunWuKong]

this is exactly why i'm getting tired of the asian american identity. asian americans are always comparing themselves to the white average and white standards. why the hell do we care? asian people in asia just takes american culture as pop culture to be consumed. and they don't think about "identity". i urge all asian americans to experience living in asia for at least a year or two. so many of us have this distorted view of what modern asian societies are like. all we ever get is snippets of media material from asia and then we apply our asian american mentality to analyze what's going on over in asia. it doesn't work like that, the way asian americans think and the way asian people in asia think are so different.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 11 2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 9 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 8 2002, 08:58 PM
i don't believe anybody over in asia are trying to be white either. if they were doing that nobody would be their own respective asian food, nobody would be celebrating their respective asian holidays, etc etc.

you know how some non-asian people are really into things like HK films or anime, etc etc? the same things goes on over in asia for american culture except on a larger scale.
sorry dude, but watching stephen chow movies and all the AMERICAN pop culture references they make, I gotta say...there's a reason why people call Hong Kongers honkies. :)
i don't remember them doing that...?
Shaolin Soccer: Thriller (Michael Jackson) parody * not to mention that ALL of Shaolin Soccer is basically a sports-centered Matrix remake.

Back to School Fight 2: Bart Simpson mask, maybe another MJ parody (Beat It?)

Ok, I haven't seen that many Stephen Chow movies, so i dunno about any others, not off the top of my head anyway. :)
actually the HK movie industry has been ripping stuff off from hollywood since the early 80s. it's a method they think would make them money. it's not an identity issue.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 11 2002, 05:33 PM
this is exactly why i'm getting tired of the asian american identity. asian americans are always comparing themselves to the white average and white standards. why the hell do we care? asian people in asia just takes american culture as pop culture to be consumed. and they don't think about "identity". i urge all asian americans to experience living in asia for at least a year or two. so many of us have this distorted view of what modern asian societies are like. all we ever get is snippets of media material from asia and then we apply our asian american mentality to analyze what's going on over in asia. it doesn't work like that, the way asian americans think and the way asian people in asia think are so different.
no one said anyone *thinks* about identity. Do you think the judge that sentenced (or lack thereof) who sentenced Vincent Chin's killers was actively thinking, "I don't give a shit about chinks. we white people should rule the world and kill nips and gooks as we see fit?" I'm certain he DIDN'T.

In the same way, maybe HKers, etc don't *think* of themselves as American, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not *Americanizing.* Pop culture isn't just consumed and then shat out; it becomes a part of you. I didn't actively think "I'm going to learn English and become an AMERICAN" when I was little, either; in fact, my first impulses when i first came to this country was "when am I going back to China?" But eventually, I became more Americanized without my consciously thinking about identity or whatever.

No one consciously thinks "we're becoming whitewashed because of this or that," but I maintain it is a FACT that most people are governed by european-based systems or ideals, we live in more or less european-based economic systems, and a lot of educated people in other countries learn European languages as a MANDATORY part of their education. Maybe it is "practical," but practicality doesn't just STOP there: practicality becomes incorporated in your culture and your identity. Is JAPANESE a mandatory foreign language in Chinese schools? No, but ENGLISH is even in Chinese elementary schools. And China's probably much less exposed to English than say Malaysia, India, or Hong Kong.

I think maybe living in Asian countries can correct a "distorted" view, but at the same time, it can "naturalize" what you see instead of make you see it from a deeper level. So I think there's more to Asian American educated youth than you admit.

[Hiroshi2]

I agree with the statement that English is a "white" language. Yes, people of various races and ethnicities use English, but as the name indicates, English came from English people. And of course, they are white. If you want to take it back further, English has roots in the Latin language. And the Romans were white as well (albeit they looked somewhat more "ethnic"). So with the spread of the English language is the spread of American and European culture(and really Western culture in general). Remember, that language isn't just a bunch of words put together; it is representative of the culture of those who speak it. That's why English varies from place to place. Either way it goes, yes I agree w/ ChinaLama, the whole frikkin world is for the most part "Europeanized". If you look at all the major world leaders you will see that that most of them, if not all of them, are white. Among the industrialized nations, all of them except for maybe two out of 26 (Japan and S.Korea) are run by whites and are mostly inhabited by white people.

I think the issues with Asians getting eye surgery does have a racial and cultural overtone to it. The entire world has been raised on the European standards of beauty. So what we think of as beautiful is anything that is white, or as close to white as we can get. This means that light skin is better than darker skin, straight hair is better than nappy hair, and so on. Quite frankly, I don't like the idea of so many Asians wanting eye surgery. There is nothing with the mongoloid eyelid.

For more on the Asian eyelid, click here (http://www.alllooksame.com).

[ChinaLama]

BTW i just want to clarify, I'm not really anti-imperialist or post-colonialist or whatever. I think saying the entire world is Westernized (i guess, as hiroshi said, Europeanized is a better word) is just a FACT, and part of me thinks the way Marx did: IT'S A DAMN GOOD THING! Spread Capitalism, spread democracy, spread western ideals-- it may be cultural imperialism to some, and to others it's the spread of progress, but whatever it is, it's REAL LIFE. And I don't think most people want to turn back the clock, and except for a few romantics and academics, i don't think anyone's really unhappy that there's a european tinge to most of our lives.

[angel nympho]

Well, whatever you guys wanna think is fine with me. But it is a disturbing thought to me to assume that government systems and languages are "owned" by white people. Sometimes it's okay for a nation to see something working well in another nation and adopt the use of their system. It doesn't mean they're trying to become *white.* I think it just means they're trying something out that may work better than what they had before. And if it doesn't work for them, they can try out something else. What does it matter who STARTED using the system or who CREATED the system... it's open for anybody to try or use. If I use Spanish to talk to the kitchen boys who work in the restaurant I work at, does that mean I'm trying to become Mexican? No, it just means that I'll be able to communicate better with them than I would using English.

[Hiroshi2]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 11:04 AM
BTW i just want to clarify, I'm not really anti-imperialist or post-colonialist or whatever. I think saying the entire world is Westernized (i guess, as hiroshi said, Europeanized is a better word) is just a FACT, and part of me thinks the way Marx did: IT'S A DAMN GOOD THING! Spread Capitalism, spread democracy, spread western ideals-- it may be cultural imperialism to some, and to others it's the spread of progress, but whatever it is, it's REAL LIFE. And I don't think most people want to turn back the clock, and except for a few romantics and academics, i don't think anyone's really unhappy that there's a european tinge to most of our lives.
Most people are satisified with that because that's all we've ever known, do you see what I'm saying?

I don't know, I'm not anti-white or anything, just saying that it's almost like there's a general idea or myth or whatever you wanna call it, that white is best. That white people are the smartest and most advanced in the world. This isn't so, as European powers only came to power in the past few centuries. Before then, the Chinese were far more advanced than anyone else in the world. And before then, the Arabs and the Aztecs and the West Africans, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural pride, especially if you're a minority.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 11 2002, 05:33 PM
this is exactly why i'm getting tired of the asian american identity.  asian americans are always comparing themselves to the white average and white standards.  why the hell do we care?  asian people in asia just takes american culture as pop culture to be consumed.  and they don't think about "identity".  i urge all asian americans to experience living in asia for at least a year or two.  so many of us have this distorted view of what modern asian societies are like.  all we ever get is snippets of media material from asia and then we apply our asian american mentality to analyze what's going on over in asia.  it doesn't work like that, the way asian americans think and the way asian people in asia think are so different.
no one said anyone *thinks* about identity. Do you think the judge that sentenced (or lack thereof) who sentenced Vincent Chin's killers was actively thinking, "I don't give a shit about chinks. we white people should rule the world and kill nips and gooks as we see fit?" I'm certain he DIDN'T.

In the same way, maybe HKers, etc don't *think* of themselves as American, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not *Americanizing.* Pop culture isn't just consumed and then shat out; it becomes a part of you. I didn't actively think "I'm going to learn English and become an AMERICAN" when I was little, either; in fact, my first impulses when i first came to this country was "when am I going back to China?" But eventually, I became more Americanized without my consciously thinking about identity or whatever.

No one consciously thinks "we're becoming whitewashed because of this or that," but I maintain it is a FACT that most people are governed by european-based systems or ideals, we live in more or less european-based economic systems, and a lot of educated people in other countries learn European languages as a MANDATORY part of their education. Maybe it is "practical," but practicality doesn't just STOP there: practicality becomes incorporated in your culture and your identity. Is JAPANESE a mandatory foreign language in Chinese schools? No, but ENGLISH is even in Chinese elementary schools. And China's probably much less exposed to English than say Malaysia, India, or Hong Kong.

I think maybe living in Asian countries can correct a "distorted" view, but at the same time, it can "naturalize" what you see instead of make you see it from a deeper level. So I think there's more to Asian American educated youth than you admit.
my whole point is that people in asia don't give a shit about whether it can be considered that they're "americanising" themselves because they're buying american pop culture. they may or may not be doing that, and my point is that people over there don't care, because they're just living how they see fit and unlike asian americans they're not comparing themselves to mainstream american society. asian americans are always consciously placing themselves in the shadows of mainstream american society, and that's what i'm so tired of. and then they have to apply this mentality to asian people living in asia, too, when people over there don't even care about any of this stuff.

[angel nympho]

Since when does American pop culture belong to white people anyway?!? I thought we'd already discussed over and over again that American does not equal WHITE! And neither does "European." White is a freakin' color, not a nationality.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hiroshi2@Nov 11 2002, 01:58 PM
I agree with the statement that English is a "white" language. Yes, people of various races and ethnicities use English, but as the name indicates, English came from English people.
i disagree that english is a "white" language. a language is really owned by whoever speaks it. thanks to the former british empire, most people (at least educated ones) around the world speak english. it has lost almost any cultural authenticity that it used to have when it was spoken only mostly by english people. it's the global language now. almost every locale has its own local english terms that are not known or invented people outside of it.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Hiroshi2@Nov 11 2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 11:04 AM
BTW i just want to clarify, I'm not really anti-imperialist or post-colonialist or whatever. I think saying the entire world is Westernized (i guess, as hiroshi said, Europeanized is a better word) is just a FACT, and part of me thinks the way Marx did: IT'S A DAMN GOOD THING! Spread Capitalism, spread democracy, spread western ideals-- it may be cultural imperialism to some, and to others it's the spread of progress, but whatever it is, it's REAL LIFE. And I don't think most people want to turn back the clock, and except for a few romantics and academics, i don't think anyone's really unhappy that there's a european tinge to most of our lives.
Most people are satisified with that because that's all we've ever known, do you see what I'm saying?

I don't know, I'm not anti-white or anything, just saying that it's almost like there's a general idea or myth or whatever you wanna call it, that white is best. That white people are the smartest and most advanced in the world. This isn't so, as European powers only came to power in the past few centuries. Before then, the Chinese were far more advanced than anyone else in the world. And before then, the Arabs and the Aztecs and the West Africans, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural pride, especially if you're a minority.
ok, at the risk of sounding racist, I would have to agree the Europeans were the most advanced when they took over the world. Maybe not "culturally," but honestly, does that matter? They had the weapons, they had the know-how, and they had the germs. I think one *PROBLEM* with Chinese/African/ Arab/You-name-it pride people is that they're constantly living in the past. Zheng He this, Ghana that. But the point is, it doesn't MATTER if Europe was in the Dark Ages in 800 AD and all their knowledge came from the far more advanced Arabs or Moors. It doesn't matter whether or not China was more advanced than Europe in 1500 AD, all that matters is that the Europeans burned the Summer Palace in China but China couldn't possibly send an army to burn the Queen of England's palace. All that matters is what IS, not what WAS...and in fact, the focus on "was" is probably one reason China couldn't overtake Europe, cuz it was so stuck on how great its 5000 yr old culture was.

But, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong w/ cultural pride, either, but cultural pride has gotta be coupled w/ realism.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Hiroshi2@Nov 11 2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 11:04 AM
BTW i just want to clarify, I'm not really anti-imperialist or post-colonialist or whatever. I think saying the entire world is Westernized (i guess, as hiroshi said, Europeanized is a better word) is just a FACT, and part of me thinks the way Marx did: IT'S A DAMN GOOD THING! Spread Capitalism, spread democracy, spread western ideals-- it may be cultural imperialism to some, and to others it's the spread of progress, but whatever it is, it's REAL LIFE. And I don't think most people want to turn back the clock, and except for a few romantics and academics, i don't think anyone's really unhappy that there's a european tinge to most of our lives.
Most people are satisified with that because that's all we've ever known, do you see what I'm saying?

I don't know, I'm not anti-white or anything, just saying that it's almost like there's a general idea or myth or whatever you wanna call it, that white is best. That white people are the smartest and most advanced in the world. This isn't so, as European powers only came to power in the past few centuries. Before then, the Chinese were far more advanced than anyone else in the world. And before then, the Arabs and the Aztecs and the West Africans, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural pride, especially if you're a minority.
ok, at the risk of sounding racist, I would have to agree the Europeans were the most advanced when they took over the world. Maybe not "culturally," but honestly, does that matter? They had the weapons, they had the know-how, and they had the germs. I think one *PROBLEM* with Chinese/African/ Arab/You-name-it pride people is that they're constantly living in the past. Zheng He this, Ghana that. But the point is, it doesn't MATTER if Europe was in the Dark Ages in 800 AD and all their knowledge came from the far more advanced Arabs or Moors. It doesn't matter whether or not China was more advanced than Europe in 1500 AD, all that matters is that the Europeans burned the Summer Palace in China but China couldn't possibly send an army to burn the Queen of England's palace. All that matters is what IS, not what WAS...and in fact, the focus on "was" is probably one reason China couldn't overtake Europe, cuz it was so stuck on how great its 5000 yr old culture was.

But, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong w/ cultural pride, either, but cultural pride has gotta be coupled w/ realism.
i think his point is that powers will rise and fall and so that it's ridiculous to think what people are "smarter" than everybody else.

[Hiroshi2]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Hiroshi2@Nov 11 2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 11:04 AM
BTW i just want to clarify, I'm not really anti-imperialist or post-colonialist or whatever. I think saying the entire world is Westernized (i guess, as hiroshi said, Europeanized is a better word) is just a FACT, and part of me thinks the way Marx did: IT'S A DAMN GOOD THING! Spread Capitalism, spread democracy, spread western ideals-- it may be cultural imperialism to some, and to others it's the spread of progress, but whatever it is, it's REAL LIFE. And I don't think most people want to turn back the clock, and except for a few romantics and academics, i don't think anyone's really unhappy that there's a european tinge to most of our lives.
Most people are satisified with that because that's all we've ever known, do you see what I'm saying?

I don't know, I'm not anti-white or anything, just saying that it's almost like there's a general idea or myth or whatever you wanna call it, that white is best. That white people are the smartest and most advanced in the world. This isn't so, as European powers only came to power in the past few centuries. Before then, the Chinese were far more advanced than anyone else in the world. And before then, the Arabs and the Aztecs and the West Africans, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with cultural pride, especially if you're a minority.
ok, at the risk of sounding racist, I would have to agree the Europeans were the most advanced when they took over the world. Maybe not "culturally," but honestly, does that matter? They had the weapons, they had the know-how, and they had the germs. I think one *PROBLEM* with Chinese/African/ Arab/You-name-it pride people is that they're constantly living in the past. Zheng He this, Ghana that. But the point is, it doesn't MATTER if Europe was in the Dark Ages in 800 AD and all their knowledge came from the far more advanced Arabs or Moors. It doesn't matter whether or not China was more advanced than Europe in 1500 AD, all that matters is that the Europeans burned the Summer Palace in China but China couldn't possibly send an army to burn the Queen of England's palace. All that matters is what IS, not what WAS...and in fact, the focus on "was" is probably one reason China couldn't overtake Europe, cuz it was so stuck on how great its 5000 yr old culture was.

But, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong w/ cultural pride, either, but cultural pride has gotta be coupled w/ realism.
Key word, "when they took over the world." This only happened after 1600 AD and Europeans began exploring the world, the Renaissance, etc.

During the 1400's Zheng He and his fleet would've easily defeated the Europeans and anyone else who stood in their way.

Much of the knowledge that Europeans gained of algebra and other more advanced forms of mathematics, science, etc. came from the Arabs and the Indians (those from India, not the native Americans).

All I'm saying is that European culture is not invincible and mighty as your history books may tell you. (of course your history books were probably written by Europeans or European-Americans). All I'm saying is what's wrong with our own culture, whether it be Asian, African, Middle Eastern, or a mixture of one of those or whatever.

History plays a very big part of what's going on in the world right now. Many nations, especially the Arab countries that hate us right now, do see it as cultural imperalism. I'm interested in wanting to know why, and I think this part of the reason. I don't think it's hatred for no apparent reason, I think there's a logical explaination behind all of this.

[angel nympho]

I totally don't understand what you guys are arguing. What does it matter which country conquered which at whatever time? Either way, it has nothing to do with white poeple being more powerful than anybody. Again, "white" isn't a country. It's a color.

[Arex]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 11:48 AM
I totally don't understand what you guys are arguing. What does it matter which country conquered which at whatever time? Either way, it has nothing to do with white poeple being more powerful than anybody. Again, "white" isn't a country. It's a color.
Well, to bring it back to the topic at hand, the world's leading superpower, the United States of America, is historically a "white" country where Western, European ideals reign supreme. Had the Chinese sent out their armies and fleets and colonized the world, rather than seeing Asians opt for double-eyelid surgery, you might instead be seeing white people in Europe opting for double-eyelid removal surgery to cater towards "Eastern" standards of beauty. The point is that you can't ignore history in attempting to understand cultural phenomenons. Everything has some sort of historical basis.

Alex

[silvernova]

Most of you have good points. Goodness...being Korean I never want to have this kind surgery! Yes, I might dye my hair and wear color eye contacts, but both won't harm my body physically. I do it for fun. Nothing infuriates me about people wanting to alter their natural flesh because of the media. The media always indicates the most beautiful is WHITE. There's no denial about that. Till the media changes, the beauty standards would remain unchanged. Hate to say it, the most prettiest girls will move the earth, not the ugly girls. Beauty inspires people. I guess Koreans felt they need to be pretty and conformist if others are doing it. I fully accept my monolid eyes. It's ironic people have mistaken me for Japanese, Hawaiian or American Native.

[BeTheReds]

I don't see how people can still equate this type of thing with trying to be white.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 27 2003, 05:36 AM
I don't see how people can still equate this type of thing with trying to be white.
I know. Ironically, I get more pressure to get my eyes done from my parents than from media defined standards of beauty. White people that I've mentioned this to don't even notice the difference in eyelids. To me, the eyelid thing is a KOREAN standard of beauty, not an American one.

[Green_Circle]

What about the practice of pinching and squeezing your nose when young in order to make it bigger and stick out more?

:blink:

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Green_Circle@Jan 27 2003, 01:40 AM
What about the practice of pinching and squeezing your nose when young in order to make it bigger and stick out more?

:blink:
eh, a more prominent nose (to a certain extent) has been preferred in chinese culture a while, long before the first ugly crusty-ass scurvy Portuguese sailors who hadn't taken a bath in three years stumbled up the Pearl River. If you wanna blame that preference on any foreigners, blame the Persians, they're the only big-nosed people who have millenia of contact with Chinese.

[BaiginLong]

personally I prefer Asian girls to have Asian eyes it's just how things are supposed to be
stick with your natural beauty girls
it's what really counts

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 26 2003, 09:36 PM
I don't see how people can still equate this type of thing with trying to be white.
The common gripe I've heard is that because Koreans generally seem to have more of a positive perception about America (prior to all of this anti-Americanism, I guess!), that they want to look like 'em too.

I dunno if Koreans are trying to look white. I do know, however, that from my observations, girls generally look better without it. Sometimes it takes forever for the goldfish effect to wear off -- like more than a year.

[SunWuKong]

bah! who cares! i'm not going to reject a girl for having monolids. if i reject a girl it's because she's fugly. and i'm a slut so if i think a girl's fugly, no amount of eye surgery will help.

but whatever. if it makes them happy, they should go ahead and have it done.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 27 2003, 07:51 AM
The common gripe I've heard is that because Koreans generally seem to have more of a positive perception about America (prior to all of this anti-Americanism, I guess!), that they want to look like 'em too.

I dunno if Koreans are trying to look white. I do know, however, that from my observations, girls generally look better without it. Sometimes it takes forever for the goldfish effect to wear off -- like more than a year.
Well all I know, is that they still look Asian even if they do it. They just look surprised all the time.

LOL

Seriously though, it certainly is possible that the first people to do it wanted to look more like white people, however that look became popular as an Asian look. Therefore just as the blonde hair thing has nothing to do with being white, so too does having the sangapul surgery.

[achtungbaby]

One of the things that crack me up the most is the girls who tape their eyelids at night so that in the morning, they'll have a fresh double.

[BeTheReds]

Yea i know someone who superglued hers... how stupid.

[kasia]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jan 27 2003, 12:22 AM
One of the things that crack me up the most is the girls who tape their eyelids at night so that in the morning, they'll have a fresh double.
i used to sleep with my finger in my cheek so i'd wake up with a fresh dimple :)

[BeTheReds]

I wonder if it is possible to give a single lid to people who want it, or to add silicone or colagen to the eyelids to emulate the fat deposits below the brow line in Asian eyes.

Would anyone get it?

Asiaphiles might....

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Jan 27 2003, 03:31 AM
i used to sleep with my finger in my cheek so i'd wake up with a fresh dimple :)
hahahh were you a little girl when you did that?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jan 27 2003, 08:37 AM
I wonder if it is possible to give a single lid to people who want it, or to add silicone or colagen to the eyelids to emulate the fat deposits below the brow line in Asian eyes.

Would anyone get it?

Asiaphiles might....
If there was any type of surgery I'd go for, it'd be that one.

Moi <---- asiaphile :confused: :confused: :cry: :(

[Aznsixian]

there's a lot of ways that korean girls get this look, from taping this eyelids at night to getting the surgery. ti's oddly very accepted by korean people as a whole though. my friend was telling me last year that her mom wanted to take her to korea to have it done.

[kimpossible]

I've had my eyelids taped before for my wedding pictures. To be honest I don't think I looked any different but it made everyone else more at ease.