Question #2 in MA passed

[Rogmok]

So Question #2 was passed in Massachusetts yesterday, essentially what the proposition does is eliminates the current ESL program we have in the school systems, and replaces with an "english immersion" program. Which expects gives who use English as a second language to enter english-taught classes, from the immersion class, in 1 year.


what do you guys think?? I think the detrimental effects are that ESL students won't be given the time or resources they need to be able to do well in school because of this program.

http://www.state.ma.us/sec/ele/elebq02/bq022.htm

[deez nuts]

Geez. What if one can't speak English at all. That's a lot of pressure for a newly immigrated student. His grades are gonna suffer simply because he has trouble comprehending the english language. That's too short of a time frame, imho.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

better than using taxpayer dollars to subsidize the whole of a kids' education in a foreign language, at least. wanna maintain your heritage, do it with your own money, don't expect your fellow citizens to do it for you. what's worse for a newly immigrated student, his grades suffering, or graduating compulsory schooling with a minimal command of English but good grades in native-language instruction.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 6 2002, 05:56 AM
better than using taxpayer dollars to subsidize the whole of a kids' education in a foreign language, at least. wanna maintain your heritage, do it with your own money, don't expect your fellow citizens to do it for you. what's worse for a newly immigrated student, his grades suffering, or graduating compulsory schooling with a minimal command of English but good grades in native-language instruction.
Nice...:) Rush Limbaugh has just left the building, ladies and gentlemen!

[wylin]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 6 2002, 05:51 AM
Geez. What if one can't speak English at all. That's a lot of pressure for a newly immigrated student. His grades are gonna suffer simply because he has trouble comprehending the english language. That's too short of a time frame, imho.
learn or fail. good motivation should make kids learn english faster. for those who dont make it really to bad...guess working in fast food joints is their destiny.

[Chris]

I was a product of ESL program. So was a lot of my friends. It really help us adapt and help us maintain our heirtage while learning English. And don't tell us ESL don't work. Most of us went onto Honors and AP classes by the time we went to high school and the lot of us still bilingual.

[noriko]

Yesterday my dad stood outside in the cold holding a sign asking people to vote "NO" to this resolution, for 4 hours. He said that about 90% of the people who made comments to him were saying 1) that this is the only way kids will ever "adapt" (ie become american), or less charitably, 2 ) that we shouldn't "waste taxpayer money" educating ESL kids. Of course he was standing at the polls of a very wealthy white neighborhood, but still.

I cannot BELIEVE this issue pased! I mean, i can believe it in that i'm not surprised, but i just don't understand it at all. As Chris said, ESL *does* help kids learn, while still letting them retain their own language and heritage. English is my first language, but most of my friends from high school, and plenty of people at my college, were in ESL programs, and many of them not only went on to AP/Honors classes, but even became english lit majors or teachers! And i can say this: i have friends (and have tutored young kids in the boston school system) who came to America knowing no english. Under the former system, they were allowed to be taught in their own language so they could learn things like math, science, history, etc, and then they were taught english, also in their own language. 100% of these people, even one of my friends who didn't come here from Vietnam until he was 16 and knew no english before that, are now fluent in english and are in a good school/college or have a great job. So clearly, bilingual education doesn't hurt kids' ability to learn english.

Why, then, did this measure get approved? Either 1) people are just ignorant and don't understand the issue, or 2) this is a not-so-subtle form of racism. It's the whole "melting-pot" theory of America; that is, you should blend in with the rest of the people around you and not retain any aspects of your ethnic background. This is why kids are ashamed to speak their own language in public; this is why so many girls my age get that eyelid surgery to have more western-looking eyes; and this is why people are distainful of allowing kids to learn in their own language.

Ok, I should really stop now. I apologize for going off on this rant; it's just that this issue is making me so angry right now. Plus, now we have a republican governor again. Blah.

luckily for you all, i have to go to class now, so you won't hear any more of my ranting about this for now;)

[seryb]

I live in Massachusetts, too. It does bug me that Question #2 passed. It makes very little sense to me, too.

I was a product of ESL, and I'm majoring in English now in college. The program does work if you look at the statistics. Of course, there's some kids that never put any effort in and don't learn English through the program, but they shouldn't be shown as the example.

The way I figure it is, isn't it better (and cheaper) in the long run to give teachers all the tools they need to teach English to immigrant children in school so they can find decent paying jobs and not have to rely on other support systems later on?

Damn you, Unz. :pissed:

[Rogmok]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Nov 6 2002, 01:56 PM
better than using taxpayer dollars to subsidize the whole of a kids' education in a foreign language, at least. wanna maintain your heritage, do it with your own money, don't expect your fellow citizens to do it for you. what's worse for a newly immigrated student, his grades suffering, or graduating compulsory schooling with a minimal command of English but good grades in native-language instruction.
i that is one way to look at the issue.. i think the other way is that this will inhibit children from immigrant families to excel in school because they are already starting a disadvantage. now is that fair?? just because their parents don't speak english, that they must struggle in school.

There is a lot of talk about 'wasting taxpayers money.' Now.. don't tell me you can't think of at least 5 things that we have to pay taxes on that only benefit wealthy white people??!! But because they have the venue and the resources to get their laws passed, they aren't complaining..

I'm pretty firmly against his new proposition. I think its a horrible idea, and creates a socio-economic barrier for immigrant families by making it difficult for their children to excel in school.

[wylin]

too late it passed, and wasnt there a similar messure in california. davis as govenor great another few yrs for that idiot. I woulda voted for scwatzeneger for republican govenor over simon or davis. dude it'd be so cool to have "arnold" the terminator as govenor. think about all the 1 liners he could say "just chill" "i'll be back" etc...

also note to noriko delete ur 2nd posting. 2x! power.

my thoughts is ESL isnt that effective i didnt see any bright people come outa ESL growing up in LA, most were japanese fobs whose parents were here working or those of us who couldnt write well (like my friend daniel whose was born here and got shoved in ESL). ESL least from my experience was useless and a penalty box for the dumb and inadept.

[ChinaLama]

shrugz...i don't think i was ever in a hardcore ESL program. When I first came to the country, we had a sort of english assistance program in Missouri, but the teacher was a white lady so she couldn't teach us IN Chinese/Spanish/whatever.

I think for young people, English immersion probably wouldn't hurt that much, although I don't know if ESL is better. In NY, I think ESL is also more assistance rather than instruction in a native language, cuz as far as I know, people in ESL do have to take classes in English, too. And even people who've stayed in ESL eventually get a good grasp of the English language, but I don't know how much of that can be contributed to just being immersed in an English-speaking society, or how much of that is helped by ESL.

[kitty]

Originally posted by wylin@Nov 6 2002, 06:54 PM
too late it passed, and wasnt there a similar messure in california. davis as govenor great another few yrs for that idiot. I woulda voted for scwatzeneger for republican govenor over simon or davis. dude it'd be so cool to have "arnold" the terminator as govenor. think about all the 1 liners he could say "just chill" "i'll be back" etc...

also note to noriko delete ur 2nd posting. 2x! power.

my thoughts is ESL isnt that effective i didnt see any bright people come outa ESL growing up in LA, most were japanese fobs whose parents were here working or those of us who couldnt write well (like my friend daniel whose was born here and got shoved in ESL). ESL least from my experience was useless and a penalty box for the dumb and inadept.
I think that if you had a lot of people coming out of ESL who weren't bright, it wasn't because they were in ESL, but rather they simply weren't studious. The whole point of ESL is not to create INTELLIGENT kids, but to even the playing field so that kids who are in ESL have a chance to focus on learning English. With this resolution being passed, immigrant kids are just thrown into the mix and told to fend for themselves. Not only are they expected to be picking up new material with kids who understand english, but they have to learn English by themselves. The whole point of ESL is so that kids can spend time learning ONLY english and not mathematics in English.

My cousin immigrated, as did a family friend, both when they were in high school. Even though they only spend a few years in ESL classes, and learned a lot of English from other sources, they still tell me how important those classes were to lay down the basics of English which they then built upon through interaction in their other classes, friends, and television. Losing ESL classes simply puts immigrant kids at a disadvantage and paves the way for further discrimination against immigrant minorities due to their poor English language skills.
At cornell, it's hard for immigrant graduate students to fit in and teach courses (which is mandatory) when their english is poor. Sometimes students complain agaist them because they don't speak so well, other times, they are made fun of to their faces or behind their backs because they have a thick accent. What exactly are we telling people? You HAVE to learn English to succeed in this country, but we're not gonna help you out at all?

[seryb]

Originally posted by wylin@Nov 6 2002, 10:54 AM
too late it passed, and wasnt there a similar messure in california.
Yeah, there was similar proposition passed in California. The movement to get rid of biligual education over there was spearheaded by a Silicon Valley millionaire named Ron Unz. After succeeding over there, he moved onto Colorado and most recently, Massachusetts. I guess he's got a ton of money, a lot time on his hands, and a vendetta against bilingual education.