Quarterback evolution

[fresh22]

It seems now that alot of the powerhouse NCAA teams have a black quarterback at the helm, also not only the powerhouses but also just average and mediocre teams too. Is it more attributable for the need for a athletic person at the position nowadays since every other position has gotten more athletic? Why does it seem that every option/dual-threat quarterback in the NCAA is black? Are the days of the immoble, pocket reliant quarterback gone?

Though it seems that those same option/dual-threat quarterbacks who succeeded in college have a hard time adjusting to the NFL. They don't pass the ball very well. It took 2-3 seasons for Culpepper, McNabb to develop into effective passing quarterbakcs as well. Also Michael Vick is often chided foor being a poor passing quarterback, but I think he just needs seasoning like Culpepper/McNabb.

I read in the upcoming draft (2006) rumors, successful dual-threat quarterbacks like Brad Smith and Vince Young will not even be scouted to be quarterbacks but as wide receivers. Is dual-threat quarterbacks just a fad for college football and not taken seriously in the NFL? It just seems to me that quarterbacks can get away with being deficient in passing in college, but would get exposed in the NFL.

[achtungbaby]

It seems now that alot of the powerhouse NCAA teams have a black quarterback at the helm, also not only the powerhouses but also just average and mediocre teams too. Is it more attributable for the need for a athletic person at the position nowadays since every other position has gotten more athletic? Why does it seem that every option/dual-threat quarterback in the NCAA is black? Are the days of the immoble, pocket reliant quarterback gone?
The number one ranked team in the country features a slow, plodding, high-efficiency guy as their QB. And at the college level, I don't think the disparity between white and black QBs who run the option is as severe as you suggest.

Though it seems that those same option/dual-threat quarterbacks who succeeded in college have a hard time adjusting to the NFL. They don't pass the ball very well. It took 2-3 seasons for Culpepper, McNabb to develop into effective passing quarterbakcs as well. Also Michael Vick is often chided foor being a poor passing quarterback, but I think he just needs seasoning like Culpepper/McNabb.
But you seem to be lumping all black QBs with those who run the option. The QB's you mentioned for example actually throw the ball a lot. Of course QBs who solely ran the option aren't going to survive in the NFL -- and that goes for whether they're white or black. Offenses that feature the option don't need a guy who can stand in the pocket and pick apart zone coverage. Further -- almost ALL QB's suck when they enter the NFL, with a few notable exceptions; ironically, Culpepper was one of those exceptions. In his first season as a starter he threw for over 30 TDs.

It just seems to me that quarterbacks can get away with being deficient in passing in college, but would get exposed in the NFL.
Definitely. I mean, there's also a reason why NFL teams don't run the option -- it's a totally different game.

[deez nuts]

there's also jake plummer - white guy. but, he's kinda altered his game since coming into the league now.

i was watching the eagles-redskins game last night and one the announcers said to beat the likes of vick and mcnabb where they do the most damage is not to flush them out of the pocket. lol.

[VV o n g B a]

jason campbell from auburn was 1st round draft pick earlier this year and he's not a scrambler. he ran the "west coast" offense that only needed pocket protection for a very small amount of time because the majority of passes are quick and short.

[achtungbaby]

there's also jake plummer - white guy. but, he's kinda altered his game since coming into the league now.

i was watching the eagles-redskins game last night and one the announcers said to beat the likes of vick and mcnabb where they do the most damage is not to flush them out of the pocket. lol.
Oh there are plenty of white guys with wheels. For a long time Steve Young had the reputation of being a runner first, passer second. Not only could he run, but he could run people over. Even Troy Aikman, who was as much the prototypical, stand in the pocket kinda QB, actually ran a 4.6 in the 40 yard dash.

McNabb is just struggling right now. I'm not sure what his problem is but from highlights I've seen, he's just been making some very poor decisions. Three years ago I think McNabb was probably the best pocket passer in the league. He reminded me of (ironically) Brett Favre in the red zone -- quick release, very strong arm, good at reading coverages and in addition to all that, always a threat to take off.

If I had to be a QB in the NFL, I probably wouldn't want Vick's unholy speed. The position is probably the most difficult and demanding to play in all of sports. Some guys spend entire careers before they're able to consistently engineer scoring drives. Upon breaking from huddle, a QB has about three to five seconds to scan the defense before he starts barking out signals. He has to be able to recognize literally dozens of coverage schemes, first by the linebackers, then by the secondary. Great QB's will be able to do that and on top of that, glance over at what the defensive lineman are doing to give a heads up to his own guys.

[yoMAMA]

there's also jake plummer - white guy. but, he's kinda altered his game since coming into the league now.

i was watching the eagles-redskins game last night and one the announcers said to beat the likes of vick and mcnabb where they do the most damage is not to flush them out of the pocket. lol.

JP is a slow white boy.

[jcdenton]

It took 2-3 seasons for Culpepper, McNabb to develop into effective passing quarterbakcs as well.

Daunte Culpepper made the Pro Bowl and threw for almost 4000 yards in his first season as a starter (2nd season overall). McNabb also had excellent passing numbers from his 2nd year on (also his first season as a starter). If anything, the examples you cited disprove rather than support your point. For comparison purposes, both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady had inferior passing numbers (in terms of TD-to-INT ratio) in their first seasons as starters.

I read in the upcoming draft (2006) rumors, successful dual-threat quarterbacks like Brad Smith and Vince Young will not even be scouted to be quarterbacks but as wide receivers.

With regard to Brad Smith, that is correct. However it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is black or that he is a "mobile quarterback". It has everything to do with the fact that his arm is extremely weak by NFL standards.

With regard to Vince Young, that is incorrect. Vince Young has the protypical build for an NFL quarterback (6-5 230) and prototypical arm strength (he currently leads the nation in yards-per-attempt, and he won "Best Arm Strength" at the 2002 Elite 11 camp). Maybe a year ago there was some talk that he might be drafted as a receiver, but now that he has the 2nd highest passer rating in the nation, all projections have him going as a quarterback (particularly if he returns next season and has an additional year of development at the position).

BTW, here's something I came across in today's Washington Post:
NFL scouts do not want to talk on the record about underclass prospects, but a few have been quoted anonymously in publications recently about Vince Young: An NFC scout: "He's got all the physical tools, and he's smart. I think he's ready. I'm big on quarterbacks who can move around. In today's game, I think it's absolutely necessary. That's why I might take Vince Young over Matt Leinart." An AFC scout: "Young's gotten really, really better with his accuracy. He's a different kind of cat delivery-wise. It'll come from everywhere. But he gets it from Point A to Point B. And I love the way he can run."

[proazn]

There ae more blacks at QB because players like Warren Moon helped reduced the perception that Black QBs weren't smart enough to play quarterback. There are still racists runnnig in the NFL (ie. the SF Training tape mocking asians), but less so nowadays.

But what about Asian quarterbacks? too dumb, too small, too weak... what's the deal? or just perceptions on the GMs and coaches? Well... i did some research and found some young up-and-coming asian quarterbacks. We all know about Timmy Chang. but i think there will be more asians in college soon. if you go to TimmyChang.net , there seems to be some asian high schoolers with the potential to play college ball. that would be great! check it out... tons of video clips.

[grimfan]

but I think he just needs seasoning like Culpepper/McNabb.

Not only that, but he needs a damn good receiver. Culpepper had Moss, and McNabb had Owens. I don't know about Culpepper, but McNabb's passing game improved dramatically with a top receiver like Owens in his squad. Who does Vick have? Nobody. He has that bigass tightend, Alge Crumpler, but he lacks the deep threat.

But what about Asian quarterbacks? too dumb, too small, too weak... what's the deal?

I don't think anybody would consider an Asian athlete too stupid: it would go against the Model Minority stereotype. Too small? Maybe, but there are plenty of big Asians, and you don't have to be a Shaq-like giant to be a QB, as anything over 6 ft. will generally suffice (don't try telling me that nobody can find a 6 ft.+ Asian athlete nowadays). The only thing holding back Asians from becoming QBs is probably the perception that they're too "foreign". Coaches spend an incredible amount of time with their QBs, almost becoming surrogate fathers. Most coaches are white, and having an Asian as a surrogate son might be too jolting for small minds.

[proazn]

I went to a california highschool where i played alot of football with asians. There were some asians who were pretty good throwers. But of course, the QB of the school was a white boy who was also the son of the coach. The football team didn't do so well.

A coach once admitted to how he percieve a good football team would be... in his mind, it would be a bunch of black players and one white QB.

[proazn]

Is Marques Tuiasosopo asian? I saw his clip on
http://www.timmychang.net

[Seamus]

No, I don't believe he is. Poor Timmy. I wish I could be part of the solution rather than just part of the problem, but I'm part of the problem because I never played football or any other high-profile sport in H.S. or college. I wrestled and played baseball (neither of which is high-profile in my area), but never did anything with them after high school. And now I'm thirteen years too late to even be thinking about an NFL career. I have other career goals, but I often wish I were doing something more to break stereotypes. This is despite my realization that you can't shape your whole life around trying to break stereotypes.


With regard to Brad Smith, that is correct. However it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he is black or that he is a "mobile quarterback". It has everything to do with the fact that his arm is extremely weak by NFL standards.


Gah, he's good, but I feel that you hear about his so-called "mobility" way too much.

[proazn]

Timmy Chang got dissed. He's the NCAA career passing leader for god's sakes. He should have gotten drafted at the least. The second-to-seventh all time passing leaders all got drafted. These QBs were all products of the system and some were smaller than Chang.... yet they got drafted. perhaps because they were white? It's ridiculous that the #1 NCAA passing leader didn't even get drafted regardless of race. But wait, he's asian....

[AznTrojan]

timmy chang sucked.. he was a system's QB..

but hey.. at least he wasn't an undrafted heisman like jason white..

Timmy Chang got dissed. He's the NCAA career passing leader for god's sakes. He should have gotten drafted at the least. The second-to-seventh all time passing leaders all got drafted. These QBs were all products of the system and some were smaller than Chang.... yet they got drafted. perhaps because they were white? It's ridiculous that the #1 NCAA passing leader didn't even get drafted regardless of race. But wait, he's asian....

[TB4000]

The QB being more or less the team leader to an extent, no way most of them have been anything but white, regardless of talent. They know who they want in the role.

[lethal]

Timmy Chang got dissed. He's the NCAA career passing leader for god's sakes. He should have gotten drafted at the least. The second-to-seventh all time passing leaders all got drafted. These QBs were all products of the system and some were smaller than Chang.... yet they got drafted. perhaps because they were white? It's ridiculous that the #1 NCAA passing leader didn't even get drafted regardless of race. But wait, he's asian....

Timmy Chang is also the NCAA career record holder in interceptions thrown. The NFL doesn't diss players based on race. The NFL is all about the green now. No team is going to give up a chance to win and make more money based solely on the color of a guy's skin. There's too much money at stake.

[grimfan]

Timmy Chang is also the NCAA career record holder in interceptions thrown. The NFL doesn't diss players based on race. The NFL is all about the green now. No team is going to give up a chance to win and make more money based solely on the color of a guy's skin. There's too much money at stake.

A savvy GM would also see the incredible potential in having an Asian QB in a metropolitan area with a large Asian population.

[lethal]

A savvy GM would also see the incredible potential in having an Asian QB in a metropolitan area with a large Asian population.

Only if that Asian QB is good enough to play. Being the 49ers 3rd string QB is not going to help sell tickets or merchandise and it certainly won't help the team win more.

[proazn]

Timmy Chang is also the NCAA career record holder in interceptions thrown. The NFL doesn't diss players based on race. The NFL is all about the green now. No team is going to give up a chance to win and make more money based solely on the color of a guy's skin. There's too much money at stake.


Dude, get real. The NFL might be the most racist sports league around. I know you're trying to sugarcoat the issue, but i've been following football long enough to know that race plays a part in the NFL. Of course, some guys are not racists. But there's already evidence of racism in NFL offices. Look at the SF 49ers training video tape with the nerdy chinaman in chinatown. and Bill Parcells calling a play in the playbook, "The Jap Play", which is a sneak attack. It took black players decades before they would be allowed to play the quarterback position. Timmy Chang would have to be the best quarterback to be given the chance to be a backup. If an asian dude or a white dude or a black dude were equally skilled and with equal talents, the position would go to the white QB. Asians have to be way better to be given an equal opportunity. That's the story of all asian males in this country. Asian males are not priviledged, they always have to prove themselves.... and if they do well, they're considered 'overachievers'.

[lethal]

Timmy Chang would have to be the best quarterback to be given the chance to be a backup. If an asian dude or a white dude or a black dude were equally skilled and with equal talents, the position would go to the white QB. Asians have to be way better to be given an equal opportunity. That's the story of all asian males in this country. Asian males are not priviledged, they always have to prove themselves.... and if they do well, they're considered 'overachievers'.

Get over it bro. Stop the whining and get into the position of power. Make your own road. Whining is not going to get you anywhere in this world. You know this. I know this. Time to move on.

Also, do you have any response to the statement that Timmy Chang is not a good QB evidenced by the fact that he is the NCAA career leader in interceptions thrown?

[proazn]

Get over it bro. Stop the whining and get into the position of power. Make your own road. Whining is not going to get you anywhere in this world. You know this. I know this. Time to move on.

Also, do you have any response to the statement that Timmy Chang is not a good QB evidenced by the fact that he is the NCAA career leader in interceptions thrown?


I'm not whining, i am pissed off and upset. Anybody who ever says I can't do anything because i'm asian... i always prove them wrong. Pick me last in pickup basketball or football or hockey because i'm asian and i'll prove you made a mistake.

Unexplicably, Timmy Chang wasn't picked at all. Don't forget, Timmy Chang is also the leader in attempted passes and 2nd in touchdowns, #1 in completions, #1 in yards. He threw over 500 more attempts than the former all-time interception leader. explain those numbers why he couldn't even get drafted in the 7th round. Even the white dude Matt Cassell (threw only 33 passes his entire college career) got drafted. EXPLAIN!


Me being picked last is not such a big deal, i play only for pride. Chang didn't get picked, he's out of a job. I feel bad for him. Livining in Hawaii, he probably doesn't face much prejudice... but here on the mainland, racists are everywhere.

[AznTrojan]

again.. timmy chang sucks.. he's a system's QB..

want to explain why a heisman QB didn't get drafted??

i went to USC.. and i don't know why cassell was drafted.. maybe he had good combine..

I'm not whining, i am pissed off and upset. Anybody who ever says I can't do anything because i'm asian... i always prove them wrong. Pick me last in pickup basketball or football or hockey because i'm asian and i'll prove you made a mistake.

Unexplicably, Timmy Chang wasn't picked at all. Don't forget, Timmy Chang is also the leader in attempted passes and 2nd in touchdowns, #1 in completions, #1 in yards. He threw over 500 more attempts than the former all-time interception leader. explain those numbers why he couldn't even get drafted in the 7th round. Even the white dude Matt Cassell (threw only 33 passes his entire college career) got drafted. EXPLAIN!


Me being picked last is not such a big deal, i play only for pride. Chang didn't get picked, he's out of a job. I feel bad for him. Livining in Hawaii, he probably doesn't face much prejudice... but here on the mainland, racists are everywhere.

[proazn]

again.. timmy chang sucks.. he's a system's QB..

want to explain why a heisman QB didn't get drafted??

i went to USC.. and i don't know why cassell was drafted.. maybe he had good combine..

Matt Cassell didn't even attend the combine. he wasn't invited. so, do you have another explanation? Also, James Killian got drafted. he played in the same conference as Chang. Killian was named to the all-conference team as a 2nd teamer... while Chang was 1st teamer.

If you're talking about Jason White not being drafted... it's because he limps when he walks. both his knees are reconstructed.... and I can give you a long list of system QBs who got drafted... but i'll get give you one for now - #1 Draft pick, Alex Smith. The system he played in college would be illegal in the NFL.

lets say you're in a job interview... you have the same qualifications as the guy next to you. the job goes to the other guy because you're asian, and the company has already met their diversity quota because they hire only asian females. think about it.

[AznTrojan]

i'm aware jason white had 2 reconstructed knee surgeries..

and yes.. i'm aware killian and cassell both got drafed.. although i didn't know cassell didn't have a combine.. might have been drafted based on what otherr USC qb's (palmer/leinart) have been doing with norm chow.. prior to leinart's breakout season.. matt cassell was supposed the be the better qb.. can't say i haven't been happy with the decision :biggrin:

can't say i know too much about killian though..

here are the rankings of qb's -

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/breakdowns/by_position/qb.html

and here's what the scouts thinks of timmy -

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/players/draft/408170

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/players/67263.html

like i said.. he's a system's qb.. UH only had passing offense.. chang's numbers are inflated because all he does his throw 50 times per game.. his numbers don't make him NFL worthy..

besides.. all the qb's that were drafted that year have sucked.. in many cases.. it's better to go undrafted than to get drafted at say the 7th round.. once you get drafted... you have to fight to stay on and sign a contract against other players.. and there's only 53 contracts available..

this has nothing to do with bypassing a quality qb or racism in the work place..



Matt Cassell didn't even attend the combine. he wasn't invited. so, do you have another explanation? Also, James Killian got drafted. he played in the same conference as Chang. Killian was named to the all-conference team as a 2nd teamer... while Chang was 1st teamer.

If you're talking about Jason White not being drafted... it's because he limps when he walks. both his knees are reconstructed.... and I can give you a long list of system QBs who got drafted... but i'll get give you one for now - #1 Draft pick, Alex Smith. The system he played in college would be illegal in the NFL.

lets say you're in a job interview... you have the same qualifications as the guy next to you. the job goes to the other guy because you're asian, and the company has already met their diversity quota because they hire only asian females. think about it.

[proazn]

I can see why you're happy with Cassell being drafted being a Trojan yourself. But if you've never been to USC, like myself, you become very suspicious. How a player who has NEVER started a college game in his life can get drafted into the NFL. he threw only 33 passes over his entire college career. that's what scrub players normally do. Chang was rated higher than both the QBs mentioned - Killian, Cassell. Yet those two QBs got drafted and Chang got snubbed. If those two QBs were black, they wouldn't have gotten drafted. maybe it's not racism... but it's clearly perception.... how a football team's QB should be lead by a white guy..... or a black guy who can run.

I've read every scouting report of every quarterback. Don't think i don't know the stuff said about Chang. always the same thing, too weak, system QB, too small. I can named you a bunch of other white dudes who were smaller, system QBs. don't get me started.

[AznTrojan]

if you already knew the scouting reports on chang.. why are you surprised he wasn't drafted.. if cassell or killian weren't drafted.. would you still be pissed??

hell.. i still wouldn't suspect racism because 2 white qb's were selected in the final round of the draft over timmy chang.. there's more white qb's than black qb's than etc... besides.. getting selected in the final rounds SUCKS..

additionally.. no qb drafted (#1 or #200+) has shown to be any good this year.. and timmy was ranked in the middle of the pack of 30+ qb's..

I can see why you're happy with Cassell being drafted being a Trojan yourself. But if you've never been to USC, like myself, you become very suspicious. How a player who has NEVER started a college game in his life can get drafted into the NFL. he threw only 33 passes over his entire college career. that's what scrub players normally do. Chang was rated higher than both the QBs mentioned - Killian, Cassell. Yet those two QBs got drafted and Chang got snubbed. If those two QBs were black, they wouldn't have gotten drafted. maybe it's not racism... but it's clearly perception.... how a football team's QB should be lead by a white guy..... or a black guy who can run.

I've read every scouting report of every quarterback. Don't think i don't know the stuff said about Chang. always the same thing, too weak, system QB, too small. I can named you a bunch of other white dudes who were smaller, system QBs. don't get me started.

[proazn]

I saw Chang play against Killian several times... and it was clearly Chang was the better passer and Killian was better at getting sacked. problem is, Chang don't look like the prototypical QB ( 6'4", 230lbs, and white). Remember, those rankings were made by white guys.

you know, if someone had a choice to hire a recent graduate from USC who is white or another one who is asian... who you think that employer would hire?
Ask Donald Trump why there has never been an asian guy on his show!!!

[AznTrojan]

that's great you saw him play.. but.. you're making a racist issue out of a non-issue..

if timmy chang were white.. he still shouldn't/wouldn't be drafted because he sucks... football is definitely more than physical attribute.. being small (not 6'4) doesn't help him.. but his decision making is absolutely terrible.. there's a reason why he's made more interceptions than anyone ever...

killian sucks just as hard (i don't believe he's on any active roster.. drafted and cut).. but if killian were anything but white.. would these even be an issue???

hell.. there are teams (e.g detroit) that gave this guy a chance.. and he was cut because he sucks..

btw.. what the hell does this have to do with the business world??

does racism occur in the business world.. hell yes.. no one's denying this..

nevertheless.. if they interview you.. you're good enough for the job.. if the sole reasoning someone is hired based on race (such as affirmative action).. then it's wrong..

on the show (apprentice).. there's everyone but asians.. do you know how many shows don't feature any asian people??? it's not that donald trump is racist.. but rather it's a systemic issue of hollywood/media coverage of asians...


I saw Chang play against Killian several times... and it was clearly Chang was the better passer and Killian was better at getting sacked. problem is, Chang don't look like the prototypical QB ( 6'4", 230lbs, and white). Remember, those rankings were made by white guys.

you know, if someone had a choice to hire a recent graduate from USC who is white or another one who is asian... who you think that employer would hire?
Ask Donald Trump why there has never been an asian guy on his show!!!

[proazn]

if Timmy Chang was white and his name was Tim Rattay, he would have gotten drafted. Tim Rattay had similiar stats to Chang but less yards, less TDs, same interception ratio. They both played in the same conference... and ran the same offensive scheme. So they're pretty much equal and Rattay is even smaller at 6'0" even. But Rattay was drafted and Chang wasn't. The only difference i can see is that the "perception" for the quarterback position is that it's a white guy.

heck, i even read other forums from anonymous posters saying they(white ppl) can not see an asian quarterback being the leader of their team... and it would be hard for them to accept it.

this coming from an anonymous user tells you what's on the minds of people because they're not afraid of any backlash when posting their thoughts on the internet. to me, this is their honest opinion. if this is in the thoughts of the fans, i wouldn't be surprise if it's in the thoughts of NFL front offices too.

[grimfan]

There was once a time, and this perception still lingers, that blacks were thought (or wishfully so) to be too "stupid" to be QBs. Thanks to athletes like Warren Moon, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair, Michael Vick, and Byron Leftwich, this idea is mostly dead. Only the most hardcore racist GM would pass on a good black QB based on solely his skin colour. Prejudices die hard, but it's not impossible to tear them down. At least Timmy Chang may have paved the way for Asian QBs on the college level.

BTW, Tim Rattay lost his job to a rookie, Alex Smith.

[jcdenton]

I thought this was rather interesting:

The winning teams in the four BCS Bowls this season (Texas, Ohio State, Penn State, West Virginia) all had black QB's. And Vince Young's performance in the Rose Bowl is now being talked about as possibly the greatest in college football history.