Motion delays trial for girl, 14, shot by police

[achtungbaby]

By Tamara Koehler
October 29, 2002

Attorneys for an emotionally disturbed 14-year-old girl shot by police after she allegedly brandished a knife at a Ventura police officer sought Monday to have the District Attorney's Office disqualified from the case.

In the 23-page motion filed minutes before the girl's trial was scheduled to begin, San Marino attorney Steven Sugars accused prosecutor Miles Weiss and the District Attorney's Office of being involved in a "conspiracy to cover up police misconduct in the shooting." Sugars also argued Weiss made improper public statements about the girl's mental condition and his belief in her guilt.

"She obviously cannot receive a fair trial with this District Attorney's Office and this prosecutor," Sugars said shortly after a hearing on the motion. "We're asking that a special prosecutor from the Attorney General's Office be appointed."

full story (http://yellowworld.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=154&mode=nocomments&order=1&thold=-1)

[kasia]

Los Angeles Times
Copyright 2002 Los Angeles Times


Tuesday, October 22, 2002


California; Metro Desk; Metro


Ventura County Police Cover-Up Alleged in Shooting of Girl Lawyers for the
foster child charged with assaulting a Ventura officer contend the officer
wasn't in danger.
Massie Ritsch Times Staff Writer
Times Staff Writer

A 14-year-old foster child was threatening only herself when Ventura police found her holding a knife in May and critically wounded her with gunshots to the stomach, her lawyers and father said Monday.

Officer Kristin Rupp, who shot the girl, has been cleared of wrongdoing. The girl's trial on one felony count of assaulting an officer with a deadly weapon -- a kitchen knife with an 8-inch blade -- is scheduled to begin next week in Juvenile Court.

Attorneys for the girl, who is identified in court documents as Anna G., held a news conference Monday to rally public support for her defense. They said the girl is innocent and police are accusing her to cover up a rookie officer's mistake. "We believe that the crime didn't occur until after the police thought about it awhile," said lawyer David Brockway of Los Angeles.

The case has drawn the attention of Chinese reporters, who were at the news conference, because the girl was born in China and her father is Chinese. Her mother was last known to be in China, the prosecutor said.

Anna has recovered from her injuries and is currently in Juvenile Hall.

She had been living in foster homes because she and her father fought about a boyfriend he did not approve of, her father said. Court records show that the father was convicted last year of corporal injury to a child. Brockway confirmed that the child is Anna and that she was taken out of his care.

When Anna threatened to kill herself at her Ventura foster home the night of May 5, her foster parents called police. Officers found the girl holding a knife, said Senior Deputy Dist. Atty. Miles Weiss. Anna ignored officers' repeated demands to drop the knife and when she advanced toward Rupp, the 23- year-old officer shot her in the abdomen, Weiss said.

The girl, who speaks and understands English, had "ample opportunity" to comply with officers, Weiss said.

"She never dropped the knife until after she was shot" and fell to the kitchen floor, he said.

Her lawyers and father dispute that account, saying she let go of the knife once she saw the officers and never intended to harm police.

Her father said the police should have tried another way to control the emotionally troubled girl, suggesting pepper spray or a stun gun. Anna spent eight days at Ventura County Medical Center, recovering from her wounds.

If found guilty, the girl faces a maximum of four years in custody, but it is unlikely she will be incarcerated, Weiss said. Instead, she would probably enter a treatment program for juvenile criminals.

TABULAR OR GRAPHIC MATERIAL SET FORTH IN THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT DISPLAYABLE

PHOTO: (VN)DEFENDERS: Attorney Steven Sugars speaks to reporters as co-counsel David Brockway, center, and the girl's father look on.; PHOTOGRAPHER: Stephen Osman Los Angeles Times

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 4 2002, 12:34 AM
Her lawyers and father dispute that account, saying she let go of the knife once she saw the officers and never intended to harm police.
Her father wasn't there... what does he know?!?

Either way, pepper spray or something else would have been a better choice. :unsure:

[wylin]

head shot is the best solution. like i said to AB and kasia, she reminds me of a homicidal zombie from resident evil. the only reason shez alive is either the cops aim sux balls or they should be using sumthing bigger then 9mm. if u attack a cop u should be dead, period reasons dont matter when u put a police officer in mortal danger...they lay their lives down everyday for the community and we should cut them sum slack. especially if a crazed "blade child" comes at one w/ a 8' knife...shez just lucky the officer didnt go banzai and empty the clip. 10-18 shots versus 3.

[karizma]

>> damn man she's only 14. just because a cop chooses to put their life on the line for us citizens doesnt give them the right to put bullet holes in some suicidal teen. im assuming they knew the reason they were called on the scene was to protect her from herself not to help her die quicker. why the cop thought she needed to use a gun rather than pepper spray or a stun gun is beyond me...shit she probably could have overpowered her by tackling her but no...had to whip out the gun...=P this kinda shit pisses me off geez...

[angel nympho]

And I don't even think she attacked the cop. It said she was approaching the cop, but not like, running at her trying to attack her. The dumb cop could have just yelled out to her cop buddies to restrain her.

[kasia]

may i also add that she is 5 feet tall.

be back with more facts later.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 4 2002, 03:57 AM
may i also add that she is 5 feet tall.

be back with more facts later.
And her brain was tweaked with anti-depressants. She might've also been on and off SSRI drugs aka serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (antidepressant drugs such as Effexor, Prozac, Luvox, Celexa, Paxil, Zoloft and Anafraniletc etc), going on and coming off SSRI's cold turkey leads the changes in your brain's metabolism.

One of the common side effects in a depressed patient coming off cold turkey from SSRI's are suicidal tendencies, delusions and even greater depression than before.

[SunWuKong]

well, ok, the cop probably could have used a more sensible way to subdue the girl. but was he following correct police procedure in doing what he did? because if so, this is really a matter of how the police handle certain situations rather than whether or not that individual cop did the right thing. and yeah, she's mentally troubled, but that's why she would probably not be punished, and instead she would be treated (well... at some psychiatric wards, treatment is not unlike punishment...).

however, if there was indeed a cover-up story...

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 4 2002, 05:53 PM
well, ok, the cop probably could have used a more sensible way to subdue the girl. but was he following correct police procedure in doing what he did? because if so, this is really a matter of how the police handle certain situations rather than whether or not that individual cop did the right thing. and yeah, she's mentally troubled, but that's why she would probably not be punished, and instead she would be treated (well... at some psychiatric wards, treatment is not unlike punishment...).

however, if there was indeed a cover-up story...
Werd. I'm SURE there's more to this story than it seems. It was too vague on what actually was going on in the house, and WHY the police were involved to begin with...

[achtungbaby]

Kasie and I met with the girl's father tonight.

While I had some prior reservations about the strength of their case, I can say now that what the Ventura County Police and DA are doing is fuuuucked up.

[angel nympho]

^-- Didn't this girl's father, like, abuse her?

[Chris]

i agreed peppy sparty would have been a better choice but shooting a 14 year old girl 3 times. that is totally fuck up.

[achtungbaby]

Okay, I dunno how much detail I can get into here, but to give you guys a better idea...

I'm sorry I haven't had more time to give additional information/details on this whole thing. Even though it was only 48 hours ago, it's easy for me to forget that I was a tad skeptical of this story.

I dont' even have time to elaborate a ton, but you can bet the Ventura Police Department and D.A. are verrrrrry shady. The brunt of what we've heard so far in the media has primarily been the message their side wanted to convey, and it's unfortunate that Mr. Guo's attorneys, thus far, have been sending a weak message to the public. Tidbits:

- We've heard thus far that Anna is a nutcase. Well, based on what she's had to endure (and even getting into details about this opens pandora's box) prior to landing in her last foster home, you probably woulda been a little nuts, too. The steak knife was for killing herself.

- Mr. Guo was branded as a "corporal punisher" when in fact he was having to deal with the very typical situation of having a young daughter dating older guys (she was 13, her bf was 20). Anna complained to a social worker at her school that her dad was mistreating her, and since Mr. Guo cant' speak English and lives pretty modestly, she was gone like DAT. In fact, a big part of this story is how our social services has fucked him over.

- Based on the photographs Kasie and I saw last night of the Worthley's home and where the shooting took place, even as a "layman" on these types of things, I can say that the shooting was completely unwarranted. The "20 feet" of distance the Ventura paper referred to was way off.

- The papers also conveniently left off that when Anna was spotted on the stair case, the knife was held to her wrist first (not above her head and when the female officer told her to "put it down," she lowered the knife to her side, thinking that was enough of a response.

- The female officer didn't square off with Anna one on one, she was surrounded by at least two other officers, all with guns drawn. The female officer was the only one to shoot.

- According to Mr. Guo, a total of five shots were fired. Because of the sharp angle of the corner leading to the staircase where Anna stood, from what I understood of what Mr. Guo said (and I dont' even fucking speak Mandarin), the officer moved slightly with each shot to have a clear line of sight.

- The last shot that struck Anna hit her after she'd already crumpled to the floor.

- The DA's office waited more than a week after Anna had been shot to file its lame-duck charge against her. The lead prosecutor has even hinted that he wouldn't pursue getting Anna jail time -- very smart of him to come off as being "reasonable" about all of this, the fact that up until now, his department has gotten away relatively unscathed for shooting a 14 year old teenager. Give the Ventura PD credit -- they circled the wagons and protected one of their own.

Think of it like this: if the rookie hadn't freaked and fired like that, they never would have brought an assault charge on her, regardless of whether she had a knife on her or not.

This whole case makes me sick.

[Arex]

That's some shady ass shit. One question though to fully dispel my skepticism: how does the father know what went on in the house at the time of the shooting?

Alex

[ren28]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 5 2002, 10:26 PM
- The last shot that struck Anna hit her after she'd already crumpled to the floor.
That to me is despicable. How can someone shoot a kid that is already down? This is another case of police abusing their power. While many cops out there are good, there are many bad ones. A cop hit some kids at a so-called school "riot" few weeks ago and it was caught on camera by a faculty member. The person that took the film had it taken away and he was also arrested for nothing more than having incriminating evidence against the police.

[Arex]

Originally posted by ren28@Nov 6 2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 5 2002, 10:26 PM
- The last shot that struck Anna hit her after she'd already crumpled to the floor.
That to me is despicable. How can someone shoot a kid that is already down? This is another case of police abusing their power. While many cops out there are good, there are many bad ones. A cop hit some kids at a so-called school "riot" few weeks ago and it was caught on camera by a faculty member. The person that took the film had it taken away and he was also arrested for nothing more than having incriminating evidence against the police.
One of these days, I'm sure we'll have a cop-killing sniper on our hands...

Alex

[angel nympho]

This sucks. Ain't no way ANY of us will EVER know what REALLY happened in there. What kind of daughter sics child services on her parents??? What kind of cops will stand around and let a 14 year old girl get SHOT instead of trying to restrain her??? What kind of 14 year old girl can survive three holes in her??? =T

[Uncle Tat]

Um the cops shot a 14 year old girl with a knife?

No offense but a baton whack in the head would have done just fine. A mean GEE a little asian girl? gimme a break...

My gut feeling is that the female rookie cop paniced and fired without thinking. I mean if the girl was suicidal...why the hell would she try to attack the cops?

[kimpossible]

Two things I wonder about are:

Did the rookie actually shoot, or did someone else and the they're letting the rookie take the fall?

I assume the rookie was following what the senior officers did and drew her weapon only because they must have. Why did experienced officers have weapons drawn in the first place?

[Fireblade]

This... by all accounts is REAL SHADY. Keep us posted.

[Adaon]

What gets me is no one except the police officers that were present could assess how "armed and dangerous" this 5" 14 year old girl was. It just makes one wonder what the standards are used to judge how dangerous someone is.
Another thing is shooting a "suspect" from 20 feet away.
One would think that police officers were trained to be proficient with guns enough to know what body area they were shooting at from 20 feet away. A shot to the extremities, such as an arm or a leg, is used most often to disable or incompacitate "an armed suspect" (most often seen on television, news and otherwise). It would only be reasonable to assume, even if said officer who did the shooting was a rookie, that the officer would be trained and proficient enough to assess where and when to shoot a "suspect", much less a suicidal girl who is off her medication. Sounds like the officers, not only the rookie but the two other "veterans" didn't assess the situation before approaching Anne. Yay, these people are here to protect us.....

[wylin]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 6 2002, 04:01 PM
This sucks. Ain't no way ANY of us will EVER know what REALLY happened in there. What kind of daughter sics child services on her parents??? What kind of cops will stand around and let a 14 year old girl get SHOT instead of trying to restrain her??? What kind of 14 year old girl can survive three holes in her??? =T
3 9mm holes. 9mm shells relatively small if treat imediately its not typically fatal. though it'd be different if the officer got a good head shot or was using hallow point rounds. Or like most people emptied their clip of ammo in a panicked situation.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by wylin@Nov 7 2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 6 2002, 04:01 PM
This sucks.  Ain't no way ANY of us will EVER know what REALLY happened in there.  What kind of daughter sics child services on her parents???  What kind of cops will stand around and let a 14 year old girl get SHOT instead of trying to restrain her???  What kind of 14 year old girl can survive three holes in her???  =T
3 9mm holes. 9mm shells relatively small if treat imediately its not typically fatal. though it'd be different if the officer got a good head shot or was using hallow point rounds. Or like most people emptied their clip of ammo in a panicked situation.
I like my explanation better: She's a mutant.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Nov 6 2002, 10:02 PM
Two things I wonder about are:

Did the rookie actually shoot, or did someone else and the they're letting the rookie take the fall?

I assume the rookie was following what the senior officers did and drew her weapon only because they must have. Why did experienced officers have weapons drawn in the first place?
As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white.

[ren28]

Originally posted by wylin@Nov 7 2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 6 2002, 04:01 PM
This sucks.  Ain't no way ANY of us will EVER know what REALLY happened in there.  What kind of daughter sics child services on her parents???  What kind of cops will stand around and let a 14 year old girl get SHOT instead of trying to restrain her???  What kind of 14 year old girl can survive three holes in her???  =T
3 9mm holes. 9mm shells relatively small if treat imediately its not typically fatal. though it'd be different if the officer got a good head shot or was using hallow point rounds. Or like most people emptied their clip of ammo in a panicked situation.
I think the 9mm is more than powerful enough considering the size of the person being shot. I'm glad she was not shot in the head though.

I don't know what sort of ammunition police use but I assume that it is not full metal jacket due to overpenetration (flying out and hitting someone innocent) and ricochet.

[kasia]

Originally posted by ren28@Nov 9 2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by wylin@Nov 7 2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 6 2002, 04:01 PM
This sucks. Ain't no way ANY of us will EVER know what REALLY happened in there. What kind of daughter sics child services on her parents??? What kind of cops will stand around and let a 14 year old girl get SHOT instead of trying to restrain her??? What kind of 14 year old girl can survive three holes in her??? =T
3 9mm holes. 9mm shells relatively small if treat imediately its not typically fatal. though it'd be different if the officer got a good head shot or was using hallow point rounds. Or like most people emptied their clip of ammo in a panicked situation.
I think the 9mm is more than powerful enough considering the size of the person being shot. I'm glad she was not shot in the head though.

I don't know what sort of ammunition police use but I assume that it is not full metal jacket due to overpenetration (flying out and hitting someone innocent) and ricochet.
i guess it's also a good thing that two of the bullets shot right through her, right? as opposed to being lodged in her?

[enygma]

aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:

[ren28]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 10 2002, 03:19 PM
i guess it's also a good thing that two of the bullets shot right through her, right? as opposed to being lodged in her?
I don't know for sure (I'd ask the doctor peeps around here) but I think with all other variables the same (damage from bullet), I'd rather have it fly out because they would have to cut her open to take it out. It may be that she is such a small person that the bullets just passed through. It is still terrible either way.

[ren28]

Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.

[kasia]

Originally posted by ren28@Nov 11 2002, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person?  even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer.  the poor girl, i would agree with  achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.
we were thinking maybe they thought she knew kung fu since she's chinese.

someone asked whether our fists would be considered weapons in the context of 'assault with a deadly weapon' given that we're asian and would "likely" know martial arts.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by ren28@Nov 11 2002, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.
we were thinking maybe they thought she knew kung fu since she's chinese.

someone asked whether our fists would be considered weapons in the context of 'assault with a deadly weapon' given that we're asian and would "likely" know martial arts.
I don't think this would be any different if she was white.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by ren28@Nov 11 2002, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.
we were thinking maybe they thought she knew kung fu since she's chinese.

someone asked whether our fists would be considered weapons in the context of 'assault with a deadly weapon' given that we're asian and would "likely" know martial arts.
I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
i wouldn't rule out that possibility.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by ren28@Nov 11 2002, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.
we were thinking maybe they thought she knew kung fu since she's chinese.

someone asked whether our fists would be considered weapons in the context of 'assault with a deadly weapon' given that we're asian and would "likely" know martial arts.
I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
i wouldn't rule out that possibility.
I wouldn't automatically assume it's true, either.

[Hito]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 09:49 PM

I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
Of course it would have been diffrent if she were white.
They'd have had a shrink there to talk her down lickity quick, and had some non lethal means to take her down standing by if it didnt work.
Becasue the pigs knew they would have been in deep shit if somthing happned to a little blone europeon girl.

You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?

I am just waiting to hear that these pigs got administrative vacation in the form of suspension with pay.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Nov 11 2002, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by ren28@Nov 11 2002, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by enygma@Nov 10 2002, 05:10 PM
aren't police officers supposed to try and calm down a suicidal person? even if she was suicidal, i doubt she would have tried to end it all by attacking a police officer. the poor girl, i would agree with achtung baby, As to the issue of drawing guns...in my opinion, this is where it gets racial...I won't try to seriously argue the point, but let's just say that white people over there are pretty white. i feel that if she were white, the police wouldn't have even drawn their weapons. :pissed:
The main questions for me here is: how hard could it be to subdue a 5' tall girl when the police are trained to deal with violent adults? Why did they not try to talk her down? Why fire three times instead of once?

I don't think I could assume that the officer would not have drawn a weapon if she was white.
we were thinking maybe they thought she knew kung fu since she's chinese.

someone asked whether our fists would be considered weapons in the context of 'assault with a deadly weapon' given that we're asian and would "likely" know martial arts.
I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
i wouldn't rule out that possibility.
I wouldn't automatically assume it's true, either.
yellowworld has not made that assumption. it's just that, when there is that possibility, it should be investigated. that is why our petition calls for 'further investigation' - not prosecution of the officer. in fact, you might want to consider writing the district attorney's office to demanding that further investigation be conducted. as a resident of southern california yourself, wouldn't you feel uncomfortable knowing that an officer got off for shooting an asian civilian without even knowing if the officer had cause for doing so? wouldn't it make you uncomfortable?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hito@Nov 11 2002, 03:06 AM
You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?
i wouldn't go so far as to say that. but i do think that the cops would probably think they could reach a white girl with less violent means than a girl who they probably perceived to be foreign and who therefore were less able to communicate with them.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Hito@Nov 11 2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 09:49 PM

I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
Of course it would have been diffrent if she were white.
They'd have had a shrink there to talk her down lickity quick, and had some non lethal means to take her down standing by if it didnt work.
Becasue the pigs knew they would have been in deep shit if somthing happned to a little blone europeon girl.

You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?

I am just waiting to hear that these pigs got administrative vacation in the form of suspension with pay.
No, I'd think it'd be the other way around. Because this girl is Asian, they probably would want to be more careful so that it wouldn't turn into some huge race thing... like it already has. If the girl was white, there'd be no race card for the defense attorney to play.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Hito@Nov 11 2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 09:49 PM

I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
Of course it would have been diffrent if she were white.
They'd have had a shrink there to talk her down lickity quick, and had some non lethal means to take her down standing by if it didnt work.
Becasue the pigs knew they would have been in deep shit if somthing happned to a little blone europeon girl.

You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?

I am just waiting to hear that these pigs got administrative vacation in the form of suspension with pay.
No, I'd think it'd be the other way around. Because this girl is Asian, they probably would want to be more careful so that it wouldn't turn into some huge race thing... like it already has. If the girl was white, there'd be no race card for the defense attorney to play.
hmm i'm a little uncomfortable w/ all this "pig" talk but whatever.

I don't think anyone would "need" a race card when it comes to white ppl. I think it'd just be "officers shot a little girl" rather than "officers fired on a girl who was brandishing a knife." maybe they wouldn't have used the word "brandishing" in news accounts, maybe it'd just be "held" or "confusedly holding a knife" or whatever.

I think race card MAY be the situation if it were b/w a white cop and a black (and maybe Asian) man. I don't think the Amadou Diallo case would have gotten NEARLY as much attention if it were a random white dude who was shot.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 11 2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Hito@Nov 11 2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 09:49 PM

I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
Of course it would have been diffrent if she were white.
They'd have had a shrink there to talk her down lickity quick, and had some non lethal means to take her down standing by if it didnt work.
Becasue the pigs knew they would have been in deep shit if somthing happned to a little blone europeon girl.

You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?

I am just waiting to hear that these pigs got administrative vacation in the form of suspension with pay.
No, I'd think it'd be the other way around. Because this girl is Asian, they probably would want to be more careful so that it wouldn't turn into some huge race thing... like it already has. If the girl was white, there'd be no race card for the defense attorney to play.
hmm i'm a little uncomfortable w/ all this "pig" talk but whatever.

I don't think anyone would "need" a race card when it comes to white ppl. I think it'd just be "officers shot a little girl" rather than "officers fired on a girl who was brandishing a knife." maybe they wouldn't have used the word "brandishing" in news accounts, maybe it'd just be "held" or "confusedly holding a knife" or whatever.

I think race card MAY be the situation if it were b/w a white cop and a black (and maybe Asian) man. I don't think the Amadou Diallo case would have gotten NEARLY as much attention if it were a random white dude who was shot.
Let's not confuse reality with what COULD have happened if it was a white girl in Anna's place. Because I cannot read the mind of the cop, as far as we know, they could have easily THOUGHT she was brandishing a knife. Either way, holding a knife is holding a weapon, to a cop. I think it wouldn't have made a difference if it was a white girl. 14 years old, by the white community, is old enough not to be seen as "a little girl." 14 year old white kids get punished just like adults. The only thing I think could have been different if the girl was white, is that she maybe would have dropped the knife, because there wouldn't be a communication barrior.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 11:54 AM
14 year old white kids get punished just like adults. The only thing I think could have been different if the girl was white, is that she maybe would have dropped the knife, because there wouldn't be a communication barrior.
It would be one thing if this was all just a matter of a police shooting, but it's not. The District Attorney took the extra step to charge Anna with a felony. None of the officers -- not in the police report or in the biased Ventury County News articles -- nor the D.A. have even admitted that officers were faced with a real threat. They've argued that she didn't do exactly what they asked when they asked, and for that she was shot.

Now that's bad enough in my opinion, but for them to take it the extra step and tell the public that she attacked officers is bullshit.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 11 2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Hito@Nov 11 2002, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 10 2002, 09:49 PM

I don't think this would be any different if she was white.
Of course it would have been diffrent if she were white.
They'd have had a shrink there to talk her down lickity quick, and had some non lethal means to take her down standing by if it didnt work.
Becasue the pigs knew they would have been in deep shit if somthing happned to a little blone europeon girl.

You need to hurry up and realize that a greater value is placed on the life of white people than us so-called minoritys period. That is why these cops feel thay can get away with murdering or beating the hell out of us.
Remember when they murdered that old homeless woman a few years back for brandishing a deadly screw driver?

I am just waiting to hear that these pigs got administrative vacation in the form of suspension with pay.
No, I'd think it'd be the other way around. Because this girl is Asian, they probably would want to be more careful so that it wouldn't turn into some huge race thing... like it already has. If the girl was white, there'd be no race card for the defense attorney to play.
actually i doubt they would have thought so far ahead. they were just afraid they'd be hurt by a little girl under 5 feet tall.

[angel nympho]

*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action. It's fucked up, nonetheless... but I don't think it's because she's Asian. And none of you know that for sure, either. Don't be too quick to assume! I guess there is always a possibility that it COULD have been something like that, but I'm sorry if I'm just not as quick to jump to the conclusion. I don't see any evidence of racism, and I highly HIGHLY doubt they wanted to shoot her because she was Asian.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 04:17 PM
*Sigh*  I give up on this one.  I still don't think this is an issue of race.  It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action.  It's fucked up, nonetheless... but I don't think it's because she's Asian.  And none of you know that for sure, either.  Don't be too quick to assume!  I guess there is always a possibility that it COULD have been something like that, but I'm sorry if I'm just not as quick to jump to the conclusion.  I don't see any evidence of racism, and I highly HIGHLY doubt they wanted to shoot her because she was Asian.
i think of it more like they didn't think they could use a less drastic means to subdue her because she's asian.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 12 2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 04:17 PM
*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action. It's fucked up, nonetheless... but I don't think it's because she's Asian. And none of you know that for sure, either. Don't be too quick to assume! I guess there is always a possibility that it COULD have been something like that, but I'm sorry if I'm just not as quick to jump to the conclusion. I don't see any evidence of racism, and I highly HIGHLY doubt they wanted to shoot her because she was Asian.
i think of it more like they didn't think they could use a less drastic means to subdue her because she's asian.
Well, didn't this all happen in a matter of like, err.. not very long? It doesn't sound like they exactly had enough time to organize some sort of support group for her or something. Obviously they weren't thinking clearly, but I don't think stupidity has color lines. Given, yeah, they could have like, mased her, tasered her, or shoved her away from them.... but I really don't think that just because she was Asian, they didn't want to do those things. I think the cop who shot her was just acting before thinking. Which is fucked up. And what's even more fucked up is that they tried to cover it up. But I SERIOUSLY think that race had not a whole lot to do with that.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Nov 12 2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 04:17 PM
*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action. It's fucked up, nonetheless... but I don't think it's because she's Asian. And none of you know that for sure, either. Don't be too quick to assume! I guess there is always a possibility that it COULD have been something like that, but I'm sorry if I'm just not as quick to jump to the conclusion. I don't see any evidence of racism, and I highly HIGHLY doubt they wanted to shoot her because she was Asian.
i think of it more like they didn't think they could use a less drastic means to subdue her because she's asian.
Well, didn't this all happen in a matter of like, err.. not very long? It doesn't sound like they exactly had enough time to organize some sort of support group for her or something. Obviously they weren't thinking clearly, but I don't think stupidity has color lines. Given, yeah, they could have like, mased her, tasered her, or shoved her away from them.... but I really don't think that just because she was Asian, they didn't want to do those things. I think the cop who shot her was just acting before thinking. Which is fucked up. And what's even more fucked up is that they tried to cover it up. But I SERIOUSLY think that race had not a whole lot to do with that.
well, i don't think the cops were racist per se. but i think race definitely played a part in how they thought they could handle the situation if they thought they couldn't communicate well with her.

[angel nympho]

^-- I think it was more that they THOUGHT she understood what was said, when she really didn't. So they THOUGHT she understood that she was supposed to drop the weapon, but when she didn't they assumed it was because she was planning to use it. That wasn't racism, that was.... just not knowing.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 01:17 PM
*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action.
And that's how we're approaching it from a campaign standpoint. Some have wanted to racialize this but we've stood pretty firm against that. This was something that everyone should be concerned about.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 12 2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 01:17 PM
*Sigh*  I give up on this one.  I still don't think this is an issue of race.  It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action.
And that's how we're approaching it from a campaign standpoint. Some have wanted to racialize this but we've stood pretty firm against that. This was something that everyone should be concerned about.
Cool. I was under the impression that this was some sort of *racial* thing.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 12 2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 01:17 PM
*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action.
And that's how we're approaching it from a campaign standpoint. Some have wanted to racialize this but we've stood pretty firm against that. This was something that everyone should be concerned about.
Cool. I was under the impression that this was some sort of *racial* thing.
so there isn't that possibility that, because she wasn't white, the white officer failed to see her as a true human being - someone like her little sister that she would never use deadly force on. i guess it's just that clear in your mind that it isn't racial.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 13 2002, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 12 2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 01:17 PM
*Sigh* I give up on this one. I still don't think this is an issue of race. It's an issue, however, of corrupt police action.
And that's how we're approaching it from a campaign standpoint. Some have wanted to racialize this but we've stood pretty firm against that. This was something that everyone should be concerned about.
Cool. I was under the impression that this was some sort of *racial* thing.
so there isn't that possibility that, because she wasn't white, the white officer failed to see her as a true human being - someone like her little sister that she would never use deadly force on. i guess it's just that clear in your mind that it isn't racial.
It could be possible, but I don't see any evidence for it. Does this officer have any history of being somewhat racist? Did the officer have anything to say about it? (Not saying that these are the qualifying things for something to be a race issue... just an example) I mean, in cases where you don't know what the person was thinking, I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless I have reason to believe otherwise. And in this case, I really havn't seen anything that piqued my attention.

Even if the officer thought the girl was a "true human being" there could be a lot of reasons for that, too. First you have to decide if the officer thought of the girl as a "true human being" and shot her 'cuz she thought she didn't matter, or if she shot her 'cuz she was scared or startled or felt threatened. Then you have to decide WHY the officer devalued the life if the girl, if she even did. That could be a number of things, race included. I'm just saying that when I heard the story, race wasn't the first the that popped into my mind. The only reason, actually, that I thought of race is because it was posted on a racially charged message board.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 02:53 AM
The only reason, actually, that I thought of race is because it was posted on a racially charged message board.
well, we are speaking out for Anna because the white media hasn't. i really think this matter should have gotten more news coverage. a 14 year old shot by a trained officer 3 TIMES in the stomach, last time after she was already on the floor, while she was holding a steak knife that she had used to attempt suicide.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 13 2002, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 02:53 AM
The only reason, actually, that I thought of race is because it was posted on a racially charged message board.
well, we are speaking out for Anna because the white media hasn't. i really think this matter should have gotten more news coverage. a 14 year old shot by a trained officer 3 TIMES in the stomach, last time after she was already on the floor, while she was holding a steak knife that she had used to attempt suicide.
But the fact that the white media hasn't covered it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the cop devalued her life because she's Asian. I don't mind that you guys are bringing attention to this, in fact, I'm glad you are. I'm just saying that the only reason any racial issues came to my attention was because of where I read the article. *Shrug*

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:27 PM
I'm just saying that the only reason any racial issues came to my attention was because of where I read the article. *Shrug*
I've had quite a few emails comes my way, people demanding to know why we were racializing this incident. "Yellowworld.org" + "14-year old Chinese American" = racism!

That's what I call fuzzy math.

A good lesson: read carefully
:lol:

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 13 2002, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:27 PM
I'm just saying that the only reason any racial issues came to my attention was because of where I read the article.  *Shrug*
I've had quite a few emails comes my way, people demanding to know why we were racializing this incident. "Yellowworld.org" + "14-year old Chinese American" = racism!

That's what I call fuzzy math.

A good lesson: read carefully
:lol:
I didn't think the issue was being racialized until somebody brought it up in this thread.............???

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 13 2002, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:27 PM
I'm just saying that the only reason any racial issues came to my attention was because of where I read the article. *Shrug*
I've had quite a few emails comes my way, people demanding to know why we were racializing this incident. "Yellowworld.org" + "14-year old Chinese American" = racism!

That's what I call fuzzy math.

A good lesson: read carefully
:lol:
I didn't think the issue was being racialized until somebody brought it up in this thread.............???
Well damn them too!:P jk

Actually, I think it's instructive to ask questions and discuss the racial overtones of the case (the "samurai sword"...how easily Anna was removed from a father who coudn't speak English...etc.) I just don't want the discussion to get out of hand, where everyone starts to think that YW is calling the cops racist.

[ChinaLama]

actually, what kasia said makes me wonder if the media still IS racist. I mean if a 14 yr old BLACK girl got shot, you wouldn't hear the end of it until the cops never find work again. (not to incite black ppl or anything). I mean come on, Rodney King got beaten, and the cops got tried TWICE...

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 12 2002, 09:29 PM
actually, what kasia said makes me wonder if the media still IS racist.
I definitely think the media is racist.

[kasia]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 13 2002, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 12 2002, 09:29 PM
actually, what kasia said makes me wonder if the media still IS racist.
I definitely think the media is racist.
after how the media treated Koreans during the K-town Riots, it's hard for me to think otherwise.

[SunWuKong]

not to mention the fact that during the whole Elian Gonzalez deal, there was actually an AIDs infected 2-year old Thai boy that was smuggled into the country, and there was a prostitution thing involved or something, and they were trying to deport him. but the media and the politicians didn't give a shit about that because Cuba is a politically sensitive issue and they all just jumped on the Elian case.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 13 2002, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 13 2002, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 12 2002, 08:27 PM
I'm just saying that the only reason any racial issues came to my attention was because of where I read the article. *Shrug*
I've had quite a few emails comes my way, people demanding to know why we were racializing this incident. "Yellowworld.org" + "14-year old Chinese American" = racism!

That's what I call fuzzy math.

A good lesson: read carefully
:lol:
I didn't think the issue was being racialized until somebody brought it up in this thread.............???
Well damn them too!:P jk

Actually, I think it's instructive to ask questions and discuss the racial overtones of the case (the "samurai sword"...how easily Anna was removed from a father who coudn't speak English...etc.) I just don't want the discussion to get out of hand, where everyone starts to think that YW is calling the cops racist.
Well, you guys can call the media racist all you want. I just didn't think the cops were racist.

[Hito]

If this girl had been killed i doubt there would have been as much attn given to the case.
It would have been hushed up by the police department counting on the "pacivity" of the asian community not to make a fuss.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Hito@Nov 13 2002, 06:55 PM
If this girl had been killed i doubt there would have been as much attn given to the case.
It would have been hushed up by the police department counting on the "pacivity" of the asian community not to make a fuss.
Uh, I think it's general knowledge by the white community (at least around here) to know that the Asian-American community is anything BUT passive.

[bwc]

the shooting of the girl kinda reminds me of that scene from Austin powers:

Austin and that girl are riding in a pavement roller towards this dude, and the dude doesn't get out of the way for 20 seconds, screaming stop all the way ahha funny shit.

But unfortunately, this situation is unfortunate. Clearly, the rookie was under extreme pressure and probably flipped out. The girl was strange for not complying with their orders in the first place. The final shot, after the girl had crumpled, though, is the thing that is getting to me.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 06:20 PM
Well, you guys can call the media racist all you want. I just didn't think the cops were racist.
look, you obviously don't know whether the cops were racist and neither do i. what's the point of debating about this when we don't have the facts? your opinion on this is no better than anyone else's - anyone who isn't a party to the case, that is.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 13 2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Hito@Nov 13 2002, 06:55 PM
If this girl had been killed i doubt there would have been as much attn given to the case.
It would have been hushed up by the police department counting on the "pacivity" of the asian community not to make a fuss.
Uh, I think it's general knowledge by the white community (at least around here) to know that the Asian-American community is anything BUT passive.
you mean in irvine? where we almost filed a class action on behalf on the disproportionate number of asian kids pulled over by the cops?

[BeTheReds]

This is coming off of a PM conversation with Kasia, but I felt it necessary to discuss why I have not signed the petition.


While YW claims that they are coming from a non racial point of view, this very thread has elements that are clearly pointing the racial finger at the cops and at the media. This has no doubt lead to many many signatures. YW can claim that the threads do not represent YW but the threads are created by the members of YW and the content in the threads has no doubt influenced people to participate in the petition.

While I agree with what the petition says, that its wrong to shoot a 14 year old girl when it would have been very easy to subdue her otherwise, I feel that adding my signature to the list will unite me with people who have signed it because they feel it was their Asian duty to fight for the rights of what they believe is an asian victim of racism. Throwing the race card simply suggests that you only care about Asian little girls who get shot by the police and if the same had happened to a white girl, you couldn't care less. The next time Yellowworld creates a petition for a cause that has to do with something that involves no asians, then I will believe that YW can make a petition without simultaneously throwing a race card, but until then, I do not believe it is possible. I do salute YW for making me aware of this case though and I certainly hope that justice is served.

I would gladly sign the petition had it come from any non racial site, perhaps from advocates against police brutality and or advocates for the foster children in need.

I am willing to listen to the argument from the other side, so please, lets talk about this some more.

[ChinaLama]

It's interesting how you say, "throw in the race card." But what if you had considered that there would be no NEED for a "race card" if the 14 yr old girl had been white? It's not even that many Asians would not have signed a petition had the girl been white; i don't even think a petition would have been needed. You throw in a picture of a cute innocent white girl getting shot 3 times by the cops, and I think the media would have ON ITS OWN started an outcry, but perhaps that would not have been necessary. The cops may have been suspended w/o pay to calm the anger of the public, the DA would not have thrown serious charges her way, and perhaps the cops would be on trial.

So I think being against "the race card" misses the other side of the story, which is that in a lot of matters, especially involving life and death and moral ambiguity (was the cop justified in shooting vs she's a little girl), a far greater card is the implied standard of Protect the White Ace. In fact, the fact that a case involving a minority, especialy an ASIAN minority, has come to such little attention in the media means we HAVE to play the race card, JUST to get an inkling of the attention Anna Guo would have gotten if she had instead been an Anna Gutman.

And the ironic thing is, while YW is trying to raise awareness of the case, people instead attack us as being unfair because we're raising race issues.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 15 2002, 09:19 AM
It's interesting how you say, "throw in the race card." But what if you had considered that there would be no NEED for a "race card" if the 14 yr old girl had been white? It's not even that many Asians would not have signed a petition had the girl been white; i don't even think a petition would have been needed. You throw in a picture of a cute innocent white girl getting shot 3 times by the cops, and I think the media would have ON ITS OWN started an outcry, but perhaps that would not have been necessary. The cops may have been suspended w/o pay to calm the anger of the public, the DA would not have thrown serious charges her way, and perhaps the cops would be on trial.

So I think being against "the race card" misses the other side of the story, which is that in a lot of matters, especially involving life and death and moral ambiguity (was the cop justified in shooting vs she's a little girl), a far greater card is the implied standard of Protect the White Ace. In fact, the fact that a case involving a minority, especialy an ASIAN minority, has come to such little attention in the media means we HAVE to play the race card, JUST to get an inkling of the attention Anna Guo would have gotten if she had instead been an Anna Gutman.

And the ironic thing is, while YW is trying to raise awareness of the case, people instead attack us as being unfair because we're raising race issues.
So you signed the petition for racial reasons. Thanks for proving my point. I'm not attacking YW at all for raising the issue. I just don't think this is a racial issue at all. Your use of the hypothetical what if she were white statements is an attempt to make it racial when it is not.

Seriously, we are talking about a girl's life here and you're arguing about racist media this and racist cops, using her to propoganda to further the view that America is racist and that AA's are victims and white people are evil rather than focusing on the real issue at hand, which is that a girl has been shot for no good reason by the police.

[tapestrybabe]

i had written an email to kasie about how i feel that this incident doesnt seem like a racial issue for me... but this issue is more about the police.. and how they handled themselves... but i believe the fact that she's asian... i can see how when the asian community ban together... that the courts, police, etc... will feel the pressure on doing the right thing... and its not just asian people... but yw i believe asked for other non asian organizations to participate in as well...

Anyways, while this particular incident may not be racial... the main stream media makes it racial... cuz it decides and chooses what they want to report... and apparantly, reporting about this 14 yr old suicidal chinese girl...who stood under 5ft tall... and who got shot 3 times... even shot when she was down crumpled to the floor... -- apparantly this isnt important enough news for the main stream media to print on its front cover newspapers... so i feel, yw is taking the responsibility in reporting such news.. that the white media doesnt speak out for...

YW... its of Asians, for Asians, by Asians, and about Asians... of course this site is gonna be selective when it comes to what type of news to share... cuz the white media is selective...

[angel nympho]

Ok. SO I'm wasted right now, but still, guys. I totaly greee that this is something that was definately hadnled badly by the cops. It was WRONG that they shot her. It was WRONG the way the handled the situation. BUT... it's wrong for us to ASSUME it was a racial issue. Kasia, I never said a THING about my opnions being better than yours. I don't know why you argue with me, because I'm on your side. The ONLY thing I disagree with is the need to throw down some stupid race issue. For reals, I think the stupid "race card" is a dirty trick. I think that Americans are SOOO oversensitive about race that anything that even INSINUATES a racial issue gets all KINDs of weird speical treatment... Fuck it. Treat this like a REAL ISSUE. Petition it because the police tried to cover it up. Dont [etition it because the girl is Asian.





Umm... fuck, i really hope that made sense, 'cuz i'm really really really really rdunk.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 15 2002, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 15 2002, 09:19 AM
It's interesting how you say, "throw in the race card." But what if you had considered that there would be no NEED for a "race card" if the 14 yr old girl had been white? It's not even that many Asians would not have signed a petition had the girl been white; i don't even think a petition would have been needed. You throw in a picture of a cute innocent white girl getting shot 3 times by the cops, and I think the media would have ON ITS OWN started an outcry, but perhaps that would not have been necessary. The cops may have been suspended w/o pay to calm the anger of the public, the DA would not have thrown serious charges her way, and perhaps the cops would be on trial.

So I think being against "the race card" misses the other side of the story, which is that in a lot of matters, especially involving life and death and moral ambiguity (was the cop justified in shooting vs she's a little girl), a far greater card is the implied standard of Protect the White Ace. In fact, the fact that a case involving a minority, especialy an ASIAN minority, has come to such little attention in the media means we HAVE to play the race card, JUST to get an inkling of the attention Anna Guo would have gotten if she had instead been an Anna Gutman.

And the ironic thing is, while YW is trying to raise awareness of the case, people instead attack us as being unfair because we're raising race issues.
So you signed the petition for racial reasons. Thanks for proving my point. I'm not attacking YW at all for raising the issue. I just don't think this is a racial issue at all. Your use of the hypothetical what if she were white statements is an attempt to make it racial when it is not.

Seriously, we are talking about a girl's life here and you're arguing about racist media this and racist cops, using her to propoganda to further the view that America is racist and that AA's are victims and white people are evil rather than focusing on the real issue at hand, which is that a girl has been shot for no good reason by the police.
i think his point is that the mainstream media and mainstream public doesn't care as much about a girl's life if she was asian (not that they don't care whatsoever, but just not as much). and so it is up to the asian american community to throw our support behind her.

[deez nuts]

The color lines hasn't really been the issue with me. I said from the get go that in my opinion there was no racism involved. More of a we fucked up and used excessive force. Now we're trying to cover our own asses, by shifting the blame away from the cops to Anna by filing charges on her.

I signed the petition because the ends justifies the means. If we play the race card so be it. I'll stand by these cats 100%. And please point me to race neutral site that is even aware of the Annna Guo's incident and has a campaign going for it, to the extent of YW's.

Sometimes having too many Native American chiefs and too little Native Americans, makes for a hindered cause aka too many peeps trying to be top cheese and regulate. I have no problems letting the likes of Achtungbaby, Arex, Kasia, Mrazntre drive, because frankly I know jack shit about the law and basic AA activism organization.

And alot of YW mods will vouch me that from the get go, that I said it wasn't a race issue. But I don't see anything wrong with playing the race card to keep them on their toes. Especially if those directly involved view it as a degree of racism about this case.

I don't believe it to be a race issue as much it is a save my own ass issue. But, whatever gets the job done, I'm flexible. The end justifies the means, for this coolie (me) in regards to this case, here.

I personally don't see a non-Asian site taking up the cause and putting in the time like some of our mods did especially Kasia and Achtungtbaby.

[Arex]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 15 2002, 01:02 AM
This is coming off of a PM conversation with Kasia, but I felt it necessary to discuss why I have not signed the petition.


While YW claims that they are coming from a non racial point of view, this very thread has elements that are clearly pointing the racial finger at the cops and at the media. This has no doubt lead to many many signatures. YW can claim that the threads do not represent YW but the threads are created by the members of YW and the content in the threads has no doubt influenced people to participate in the petition.

While I agree with what the petition says, that its wrong to shoot a 14 year old girl when it would have been very easy to subdue her otherwise, I feel that adding my signature to the list will unite me with people who have signed it because they feel it was their Asian duty to fight for the rights of what they believe is an asian victim of racism. Throwing the race card simply suggests that you only care about Asian little girls who get shot by the police and if the same had happened to a white girl, you couldn't care less. The next time Yellowworld creates a petition for a cause that has to do with something that involves no asians, then I will believe that YW can make a petition without simultaneously throwing a race card, but until then, I do not believe it is possible. I do salute YW for making me aware of this case though and I certainly hope that justice is served.

I would gladly sign the petition had it come from any non racial site, perhaps from advocates against police brutality and or advocates for the foster children in need.

I am willing to listen to the argument from the other side, so please, lets talk about this some more.
As I see it, the only person I see here playing any kind of race card is you. As you've stated, you would gladly have signed the petition had it come from a race-neutral site. That's racist in and of itself. You're basically saying that because a few people in these forums (relative to the vast number of signatures on the petition) have chosen to speculate about or discuss the possible race issue, it necessarily racially charges the entire Justice for Anna campaign (and you dismiss it on that basis) even though you basically agree that the petition itself is racially neutral. Have you even bothered to read most of the comments people have left on the petition? From what I've seen, the vast majority simply reiterate what's on the petition itself. Very few inject the racial issue into it as you seem to want to assume they have. Don't be so quick to generalize.

And if you agree with the petition itself, so what if your signature on it "unites" you with people that may have signed it for reasons that you disagree with? You vote don't you? Do you always vote based on what you think might have motivated other people vote in a particular way? Or do you vote based on your own beliefs about the particular proposition or candidate on the voting block?

With respect to YW taking on a campaign that involves no Asians, let's not forget that this is an organization devoted towards Asian and Asian American empowerment and awareness. With limited resources, you've got to pick and choose your fights so most fights will deal with Asians or Asian issues. It doesn't mean we as human beings don't care about non-Asians (FYI, I'd gladly sign a petition to show my support for a white girl that was wrongfully shot by the police if it was brought to my attention), it just means that you won't likely see such a campaign started here. Hopefully you can understand the rationale for that. If you can't, then I'm frankly wondering why you're even here (this is not talking shit, but rather genuine curiosity). On the one hand, you "salute" YW for making you aware of the Anna Guo incident, and yet you simultaneously want to discredit the entire campaign because it came from YW. Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy in your statements/actions.

Alex

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Arex@Nov 15 2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 15 2002, 01:02 AM
This is coming off of a PM conversation with Kasia, but I felt it necessary to discuss why I have not signed the petition.


While YW claims that they are coming from a non racial point of view, this very thread has elements that are clearly pointing the racial finger at the cops and at the media.  This has no doubt lead to many many signatures.  YW can claim that the threads do not represent YW but the threads are created by the members of YW and the content in the threads has no doubt influenced people to participate in the petition.

While I agree with what the petition says, that its wrong to shoot a 14 year old girl when it would have been very easy to subdue her otherwise, I feel that adding my signature to the list will unite me with people who have signed it because they feel it was their Asian duty to fight for the rights of what they believe is an asian victim of racism.  Throwing the race card simply suggests that you only care about Asian little girls who get shot by the police and if the same had happened to a white girl, you couldn't care less.  The next time Yellowworld creates a petition for a cause that has to do with something that involves no asians, then I will believe that YW can make a petition without simultaneously throwing a race card, but until then, I do not believe it is possible.  I do salute YW for making me aware of this case though and I certainly hope that justice is served.

I would gladly sign the petition had it come from any non racial site, perhaps from advocates against police brutality and or advocates for the foster children in need.

I am willing to listen to the argument from the other side, so please, lets talk about this some more.
As I see it, the only person I see here playing any kind of race card is you. As you've stated, you would gladly have signed the petition had it come from a race-neutral site. That's racist in and of itself. You're basically saying that because a few people in these forums (relative to the vast number of signatures on the petition) have chosen to speculate about or discuss the possible race issue, it necessarily racially charges the entire Justice for Anna campaign (and you dismiss it on that basis) even though you basically agree that the petition itself is racially neutral. Have you even bothered to read most of the comments people have left on the petition? From what I've seen, the vast majority simply reiterate what's on the petition itself. Very few inject the racial issue into it as you seem to want to assume they have. Don't be so quick to generalize.

And if you agree with the petition itself, so what if your signature on it "unites" you with people that may have signed it for reasons that you disagree with? You vote don't you? Do you always vote based on what you think might have motivated other people vote in a particular way? Or do you vote based on your own beliefs about the particular proposition or candidate on the voting block?

With respect to YW taking on a campaign that involves no Asians, let's not forget that this is an organization devoted towards Asian and Asian American empowerment and awareness. With limited resources, you've got to pick and choose your fights so most fights will deal with Asians or Asian issues. It doesn't mean we as human beings don't care about non-Asians (FYI, I'd gladly sign a petition to show my support for a white girl that was wrongfully shot by the police if it was brought to my attention), it just means that you won't likely see such a campaign started here. Hopefully you can understand the rationale for that. If you can't, then I'm frankly wondering why you're even here (this is not talking shit, but rather genuine curiosity). On the one hand, you "salute" YW for making you aware of the Anna Guo incident, and yet you simultaneously want to discredit the entire campaign because it came from YW. Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy in your statements/actions.

Alex
you really put into words what i had been thinking but couldn't seem to articulate
law school sho' did you good arex :)

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Arex@Nov 15 2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 15 2002, 01:02 AM
This is coming off of a PM conversation with Kasia, but I felt it necessary to discuss why I have not signed the petition.


While YW claims that they are coming from a non racial point of view, this very thread has elements that are clearly pointing the racial finger at the cops and at the media.  This has no doubt lead to many many signatures.  YW can claim that the threads do not represent YW but the threads are created by the members of YW and the content in the threads has no doubt influenced people to participate in the petition.

While I agree with what the petition says, that its wrong to shoot a 14 year old girl when it would have been very easy to subdue her otherwise, I feel that adding my signature to the list will unite me with people who have signed it because they feel it was their Asian duty to fight for the rights of what they believe is an asian victim of racism.  Throwing the race card simply suggests that you only care about Asian little girls who get shot by the police and if the same had happened to a white girl, you couldn't care less.  The next time Yellowworld creates a petition for a cause that has to do with something that involves no asians, then I will believe that YW can make a petition without simultaneously throwing a race card, but until then, I do not believe it is possible.  I do salute YW for making me aware of this case though and I certainly hope that justice is served.

I would gladly sign the petition had it come from any non racial site, perhaps from advocates against police brutality and or advocates for the foster children in need.

I am willing to listen to the argument from the other side, so please, lets talk about this some more.
As I see it, the only person I see here playing any kind of race card is you. As you've stated, you would gladly have signed the petition had it come from a race-neutral site. That's racist in and of itself. You're basically saying that because a few people in these forums (relative to the vast number of signatures on the petition) have chosen to speculate about or discuss the possible race issue, it necessarily racially charges the entire Justice for Anna campaign (and you dismiss it on that basis) even though you basically agree that the petition itself is racially neutral. Have you even bothered to read most of the comments people have left on the petition? From what I've seen, the vast majority simply reiterate what's on the petition itself. Very few inject the racial issue into it as you seem to want to assume they have. Don't be so quick to generalize.

And if you agree with the petition itself, so what if your signature on it "unites" you with people that may have signed it for reasons that you disagree with? You vote don't you? Do you always vote based on what you think might have motivated other people vote in a particular way? Or do you vote based on your own beliefs about the particular proposition or candidate on the voting block?

With respect to YW taking on a campaign that involves no Asians, let's not forget that this is an organization devoted towards Asian and Asian American empowerment and awareness. With limited resources, you've got to pick and choose your fights so most fights will deal with Asians or Asian issues. It doesn't mean we as human beings don't care about non-Asians (FYI, I'd gladly sign a petition to show my support for a white girl that was wrongfully shot by the police if it was brought to my attention), it just means that you won't likely see such a campaign started here. Hopefully you can understand the rationale for that. If you can't, then I'm frankly wondering why you're even here (this is not talking shit, but rather genuine curiosity). On the one hand, you "salute" YW for making you aware of the Anna Guo incident, and yet you simultaneously want to discredit the entire campaign because it came from YW. Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy in your statements/actions.

Alex
I think he just means he doesn't want to seem like he's signing for reasons he doesn't believe in. Coming from a racially charged site, the petition makes it seem as though we are signing for racial reasons, even when we're not. And even when comments don't say things of that sort. The fact that the petition comes from a site built to *empower Asian Americans* and *strengthen the cause* and stuff just strongly insinuates that we interpret this as a "racial issue." And that's through no fault of YW or the makers of the petition. Not to put thoughts in your head, BeTheReds, but I that's just the way I interpreted that.

[deez nuts]

I find it very unlikely that non-Asian site or organization will put the dedication and time into Anna's cause. If it wasn't for the awareness of Asian groups and sites the whole incident probably would've gone unnoticed.

I know let's change the name of the site to RainbowWorld :D

[achtungbaby]

What the fuck is going on here? Lemme get this straight, people don't want to support the petition because of who else is supporting it?!?

If you take yourself that seriously and want to play armchair politics that much -- and therefore, couldn't, in good 'conscience' sign the petition -- then you're right, we're better off not having you sign it.

Personally, I'd rather have people say she was guilty then have them come off with such lame excuses.

[angel nympho]

GOOD LORD. There's a difference between not signing a petition and not being in favor of the cause.

Uh... and I hope you're not talking about me. I was just trying to clarify what BeTheReds could have meant.

But maybe you're right. Maybe you guys would be better off without my name on your petition. :huh: Cuz excuses are lame right?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 01:23 PM
GOOD LORD. There's a difference between not signing a petition and not being in favor of the cause.

Well, let's take a moment to examine what you're talking about -- you're in favor of the "cause"...what cause is that?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 15 2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 01:23 PM
GOOD LORD.  There's a difference between not signing a petition and not being in favor of the cause.

Well, let's take a moment to examine what you're talking about -- you're in favor of the "cause"...what cause is that?
I think it's a good thing that you guys are looking into the case.

I'm not ready to sign any petitions yet because I havn't been on the recieving end of enough information. Like Will said in another thread, I'd like to see what the cops are thinking.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 01:35 PM
I'm not ready to sign any petitions yet because I havn't been on the recieving end of enough information. Like Will said in another thread, I'd like to see what the cops are thinking.
Those reasons are a lot different than not wanting to sign because of some silly "racializing" attributed to this case.

However, I think we've already heard the police officers comment on this via District Attorney Miles Weiss and his office's felony charge against Anna.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 15 2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 01:35 PM
I'm not ready to sign any petitions yet because I havn't been on the recieving end of enough information.  Like Will said in another thread, I'd like to see what the cops are thinking.
Those reasons are a lot different than not wanting to sign because of some silly "racializing" attributed to this case.

However, I think we've already heard the police officers comment on this via District Attorney Miles Weiss and his office's felony charge against Anna.
Yeah, I was trying to explain where BeTheReds might be coming from... because I totally understand if he doesn't feel right about signing.

And geting back on topic, I don't think I've heard anything from the side of the police officers. Where is this stuff posted?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 02:30 PM
And geting back on topic, I don't think I've heard anything from the side of the police officers. Where is this stuff posted?
Hey, if the D.A. is going to allow the police officers access to the public, by all means, bring it on:) They should have nothing to fear but the truth, right?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 15 2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 02:30 PM
And geting back on topic, I don't think I've heard anything from the side of the police officers.  Where is this stuff posted?
Hey, if the D.A. is going to allow the police officers access to the public, by all means, bring it on:) They should have nothing to fear but the truth, right?
*Scratches head* ....Where is this stuff posted...? :confused: The DA stuff at least? All I read is that they are charging her. I didn't... get... why...

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 15 2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 15 2002, 09:19 AM
It's interesting how you say, "throw in the race card." But what if you had considered that there would be no NEED for a "race card" if the 14 yr old girl had been white? It's not even that many Asians would not have signed a petition had the girl been white; i don't even think a petition would have been needed. You throw in a picture of a cute innocent white girl getting shot 3 times by the cops, and I think the media would have ON ITS OWN started an outcry, but perhaps that would not have been necessary. The cops may have been suspended w/o pay to calm the anger of the public, the DA would not have thrown serious charges her way, and perhaps the cops would be on trial.

So I think being against "the race card" misses the other side of the story, which is that in a lot of matters, especially involving life and death and moral ambiguity (was the cop justified in shooting vs she's a little girl), a far greater card is the implied standard of Protect the White Ace. In fact, the fact that a case involving a minority, especialy an ASIAN minority, has come to such little attention in the media means we HAVE to play the race card, JUST to get an inkling of the attention Anna Guo would have gotten if she had instead been an Anna Gutman.

And the ironic thing is, while YW is trying to raise awareness of the case, people instead attack us as being unfair because we're raising race issues.
So you signed the petition for racial reasons. Thanks for proving my point. I'm not attacking YW at all for raising the issue. I just don't think this is a racial issue at all. Your use of the hypothetical what if she were white statements is an attempt to make it racial when it is not.

Seriously, we are talking about a girl's life here and you're arguing about racist media this and racist cops, using her to propoganda to further the view that America is racist and that AA's are victims and white people are evil rather than focusing on the real issue at hand, which is that a girl has been shot for no good reason by the police.
I think SWK summarized what I meant. And I don't see why it's so offensive to speculate that there wouldn't have been a need for a petition or other ACTIVE attempts to seek media attention if the girl had been white. I think the "race card" may sometimes elicit special treatment (for instance, the cops that shot Amadou Diallou may not have gotten as much flack if they had shot a white man), but for some "races," we don't get enough attention to begin with. And it's not so much I'm racializing the shooting itself as I'm racializing the COVERAGE of the issue, or should I say, the lack thereof, outside of the Asian American community. And it IS a matter of race in that sense -- you can bet your hide if a 14 yr old white girl or a 14 yr old black girl (esp a black girl) had been shot by the cops, the media would have this on the front page and the DA may not even dare to press charges. But when it's a Chinese girl, when the media DOES cover it, it's almost invariably heavily biased AGAINST the girl.

Most people here see it as:

Cops panicked, shot a 14 yr old girl 3 times.

But the media reported it as cops defending against a girl "brandishing" a knife. Is BRANDISHING is a neutral word or a word w/ positive connotations that sympathize w/ the girl?


As for MY reasons for signing the petition, that's private. What I'm discussing is an ARGUMENt behind using a so-called race-card, and it does NOT have to do with the situation, but rather how the situation was treated afterwards by the media, the public, and law enforcement.

[angel nympho]

^-- The only real way to find that out, though, is to have cops shoot a 14 year old white girl.

[kasia]

i'm speaking on behalf of myself...

but re: bethereds comment, he's damn right that i would not have taken up the issue in the same way that i did with anna's case had she not been asian. the reason is not necessarily because i believe she is a victim of racism but simply because she is asian. that is the same reason why i choose to provide free legal services to the asian communities of los angeles but volunteer pretty minimally in other communities. i don't have all the time in the world, but with the time i do have, i would like to give back to my *own* community. there are many reasons for this. one is that the mainstream services, etc. don't really care about the asian community. another is that i can identify more with what asians go through. it's true that i care more about anna's case because she's chinese. i'm going to take care of my own before i take care of others.

[lethal]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 15 2002, 09:03 PM
i'm speaking on behalf of myself...

but re: bethereds comment, he's damn right that i would not have taken up the issue in the same way that i did with anna's case had she not been asian. the reason is not necessarily because i believe she is a victim of racism but simply because she is asian. that is the same reason why i choose to provide free legal services to the asian communities of los angeles but volunteer pretty minimally in other communities. i don't have all the time in the world, but with the time i do have, i would like to give back to my *own* community. there are many reasons for this. one is that the mainstream services, etc. don't really care about the asian community. another is that i can identify more with what asians go through. it's true that i care more about anna's case because she's chinese. i'm going to take care of my own before i take care of others.
I totally agree.

I think all people choose to fight the battles that they believe in or can relate to.

Personally, almost all of my volunteer and public interest work has been with immigrants, mostly from Asia. I can relate to them because I was once in their same position, new to this country and struggling to understand everything without really knowing English all that well. Perhaps I personally was never in that position because I was so young, but my parents sure were.

I want to facilitate that process of acclimation as much as possible and helping people understand their rights is a key part of that.

I signed the petition because Anna and her family is in a situation I can relate to or understand. If I were closer to LA, I'd do more if I could.

If people criticize YW for promoting Anna's interests because she is Asian and it is a cause that we can relate to and that we are biased towards, why not criticize Greenpeace or PETA or the World Wildlife Federation or the Jewish Anti-Defamation League for the same thing? By definition, all groups that wish to bring attention to a matter are interested parties and therefore somewhat biased.

And BTR, have you ever voted in an election? Do you think Clarence Thomas is worried that when he voted for Bush that some KKK also voted for Bush? Each of them may have significantly different reasons for supporting Bush, but they're not worried about the other person. I find this hypothetical analogous to your rejection of signing the petition even though you may believe in it because other people are signing for reasons that you disagree with.

Arex, your post was great. I could not have put it any better.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 02:39 PM
*Scratches head* ....Where is this stuff posted...? :confused: The DA stuff at least? All I read is that they are charging her. I didn't... get... why...
I was only kidding. The D.A. would never let those officers speak to the public about this.

I think you're onto something, angel_nympho -- we don't know why the D.A. is charging Anna either:) By charging her with a felony assault on a peace officer with a deadly weapon, the D.A. is saying that Anna did a lot more than simply refuse to drop a knife.

Anyone recall that she's 14?

[deez nuts]

I really don't understand what the hoopla is around an Asian site dedicated and geared towards Asian people helping and Asian girl in legal trouble.

When was the last time you saw the Anti-Defamation League take up an Asian cause?

I mean come on. Yes it would be fine and dandy if we could all live as one and be colorblind, but it's not reality at this point.

And to extend on what Kasia said. In general people of the same background tend to sympathize with one another. And props to Kasia for putting her legal talents for Asian community. Heck I go that extra mile for my Asian patients by staying late to look how they're doing in post-op, sit down with the families to explain the surgical procedures, write prescription notes and how to take medication in Chinese for them, etc etc.

And you know what? The only reason I do this is after 4 years of med school and 3 years of residency, I've noticed the Asian patients are not treated the same by white MD's as compared to white patients. It's not racism, it's just that I believe they relate and sympathesize better to a white patient.

Out of the third year surgical resident staff of twenty-two only two are Asian. Me and the other Chinese d00d feel that we kinda owe it to the Asian community, this is our way of giving back.

[ren28]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 15 2002, 07:08 PM
...I've noticed the Asian patients are not treated the same by white MD's as compared to white patients. It's not racism, it's just that I believe they relate and sympathesize better to a white patient.

On a side note, I think this statement is very true. Some things that I have been quick to judge as "racist" may not have been racist at all.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Nov 16 2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 02:39 PM
*Scratches head*  ....Where is this stuff posted...?  :confused:  The DA stuff at least?  All I read is that they are charging her.  I didn't... get... why...
I was only kidding. The D.A. would never let those officers speak to the public about this.

I think you're onto something, angel_nympho -- we don't know why the D.A. is charging Anna either:) By charging her with a felony assault on a peace officer with a deadly weapon, the D.A. is saying that Anna did a lot more than simply refuse to drop a knife.

Anyone recall that she's 14?
I don't think her age matters. I've heard stories on the news about people her age and younger murdering their parents and bullshit like that. I'm 100% positive that somebody her age is FULLY capable of knowing the consequences of a crime.

Oh, but I don't mean to say she did anything. Just saying that age doesn't make a difference to me.

[Fireblade]

Ok, in all honesty, why did the police need guns to aprehend a girl? We've all seen cops to a certain extent, and usually with 3 people, shots are not fired, but yet rather a couple of cops either subdue the person in question, or talk them out of it. There probably was a language barrier, and some comments flown in and out to possibly make the cop panic and shoot.

Example:
Cop - "Put Down the Knife!"
Girl - "No."
Cop - "I'm afraid you have to put down the knife. Do you understand?"
Girl - "No."
Cop - "Don't come any closer. Just stay there"
Girl - (confused) "No" (walks towards cop)
[shots are fired]

I mean, this might have happened, but yet we don't know for sure. Until we can get a detailed account of what happened with the cops, then we can never be sure. What I can be sure about, is that the Media didn't do it's job of covering the story. I think it might have been mentioned in ventura, but I sure as hell never heard about it. It's only by stumbling upon this website did I get any idea of what was happened past the outskirts of my city. What the cops should have done, was bring in an interpreter to talk to her, so she could understand her situation. I mean, if I was stuck in another city, suicidal, and all of a sudden some cops come by with guns waving in the air, I'd be clenching a knife too, because I would be too scared to understand what was happening.

But that is still no excuse for firing upon the girl. Three cops should have been enough to take down a girl with a knife. Sure, no one wants to get hurt, but guns are FATAL. Unless she was about to lunge for someone's throat, I really don't see how the situation called for 3 shots.

Oh well, back to the debate. (shakes his head)

[angel nympho]

Ok, umm... from, like, a feminist point of view... I'm a little Asian girl, too. Don't undersestimate me. When I'm pissed I'll fucking slash your throat out.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 15 2002, 11:47 PM
Oh, but I don't mean to say she did anything. Just saying that age doesn't make a difference to me.
I think age matters. If a five year old bites my leg, I'm not going to unleash the full force of Achtung upon him:)

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Nov 16 2002, 12:36 PM
When I'm pissed I'll fucking slash your throat out.
When you're pissed you will try to slash my throat -- but fail:) Even worse, if I'm an officer, trained in various dirty-fighting tactics to subdue opponents much larger than them, you'll be lucky if you don't have bones broken...!

[BeTheReds]

Okay to sum it all up.


I don't think this case deserves any special attention from me simply because the victim is Asian.

[Arex]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 17 2002, 05:25 PM
Okay to sum it all up.


I don't think this case deserves any special attention from me simply because the victim is Asian.
Well, do you think it deserves any less attention because 1) the girl is Asian and 2) you learned of her case on an Asian website? Based on your statement that you "would gladly sign the petition had it come from any non racial site" it seems as though this is the case. But based on your other post in the "Asian Americans or Everybody Else" thread, (not to mention your participation in these forums), Asian/Asian American issues and things affecting Asian (or at least Korean) communities are important to you. So what's the deal?

Alex

[BeTheReds]

I am glad that in the petition there are places to write comments.

It I admit now that I was wrong to object to signing the petition because it came from this site.

I signed it.

Thanks to everyone who argued with me. Sometimes it takes something like that to realize what is important.

[achtungbaby]

Thanks for signing, BTR. I think it takes balls to admit you're wrong about things sometimes, especially in online forums, where sometimes flame wars and debates can go on forever, people holding onto to nothing but their pride...

[ChinaLama]

Thanks, BTR. I had thought talking over issues never actually changes someone's mind, but I was wrong. :)

[kasia]

thanks for your support. i know you did it b/c you cared about anna.

[BeTheReds]

Well, it helps to talk about issues, otherwise I wouldn't be here at all. I still don't agree with the reasons that have affected some people to sign the petition, and this certainly doesn't mean I will back down from my claim that this issue has nothing to do with race, and I think that many many people only care about Anna because she is Asian and I think that is sad.

I would especially like to thank Kasia for actually taking time to talk to me rather than just deciding.. he's an idiot, I'll leave him alone. I know I will still disagree on many things with you in the future, but I'll always respect you.

[kasia]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Nov 18 2002, 05:22 AM
Well, it helps to talk about issues, otherwise I wouldn't be here at all. I still don't agree with the reasons that have affected some people to sign the petition, and this certainly doesn't mean I will back down from my claim that this issue has nothing to do with race, and I think that many many people only care about Anna because she is Asian and I think that is sad.

I would especially like to thank Kasia for actually taking time to talk to me rather than just deciding.. he's an idiot, I'll leave him alone. I know I will still disagree on many things with you in the future, but I'll always respect you.
thanks. and me as well.

*sigh* now i feel all bad for being mean.

*hugs*

:P

[Commando_turned_MD]

It seems this is a common occurance in America. Cops abusing their power......You probably remember the incident with the white cop and black teenage in Cali. Teen refuse to comply, so he got beat down. The African-Amer. citizens in the city claimed abuse & racism. But did the teen deserve what he got? Cops claimed the teen did not comply with his order. When he approached the teen, the teen grabbed his testicles. So Cop punch teen....

In this case, cops claimed the girl approached them w/ a knife. Girl refuse to drop the knife. Cops shoots her in the abs. From my perspective the girl is guilty for not complying w/ a peace officer. Girl advanced Rupp w/ the intention of causing harm---in the mind of Rupp. Rupp forced to shoot her. What people failed to realize is when the Cops arrived at the location with weapons drawn, and see a girl w/ a knife failing to comply and advancing in their direction fast. The cops DO NOT have sufficient time to re-holster the side-arm and pull out the pepper-spray to subdue her. I bet thats the argument the court is going use....Stun-gun is the ideal because it require close contact with the perp.

Another argument the cops can use is that they may have saved her life. If not for Rupp's action, Anna may have fatally stab herself. This may be more fatal than a well placed shot in the abs. Here's another thing people seem to realize. When you shoot a perp, you are trained to performed a tap------two shot----to make sure the perp is down. This become second nature.

During my time in Afganistan, when I was engaging targets in close-battle, I place a TAP ( two shots in the sternum) follow by one shot to the head; To ensure the target is dead. Why not aim for the head initial? Because there is a chance that you will miss...In combat you do not have time to think...You act on instinct........And your instinct is hone through countless hours of training, so it becomes second nature.
Cops are trained to shoot center--of--mass. They are not skilled enough to hit small body limbs---eg. arms or leg. Like I mention, there is a chance the round may miss and penetrate the wall and injure other people.

Maybe if the cops had time to reacess the problem, they may have used non-lethal means to subdue her. But like in combat, if a threat does not comply and is advancing at a great speed, the only choice you have is to use the weapon at hand. You do not have time to transition to the non-lethal stuff.

The point I'm addressing is whether the cop had sufficient time to transition from lethal to non-lethal force. They were in the process of assessing the situation, when she advance. Being a cop is not easy. You make life and death judgement everyday. If she is advancing at fast rate, one does not have sufficient time to switch weapons. ...It takes several seconds to re-holster the side-arm and get the pepper spray out. This could be a life and death situation for a cop. If that's they case, the cops follow proper procedure.

How do you know she is not a threat to the cops? Age is not a factor. At 14