Native Hawai'ian School Admissions Challenged

[hooligan]

'This ruling is disgusting'

By Mary Vorsino, Star Bulletin
mvorsino@starbulletin.com (mvorsino@starbulletin.com)

Pledging to stand together -- despite differences on how to ward off challenges to Hawaiians-only programs -- more than 10,000 gathered yesterday on the lawn of Iolani Palace to protest a federal appeals court ruling against Kamehameha Schools' Hawaiians-first admissions policy.

During a two-hour rally, filled with chanting, speeches and prayers for strength, Kamehameha's trustees and its chief executive officer vowed to vigorously fight the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling, but conceded victory was not certain.

Meanwhile, Gov. Linda Lingle, standing next to Lt. Gov. James "Duke" Aiona, called the 9th Circuit decision "a test" that Hawaiians must overcome and said she would work to keep Kamehameha's admissions policy intact. Both Lingle and Aiona wore red T-shirts, like many attendees, emblazoned with the words Ku I Ka Pono ("justice for Hawaiians").

"We are here to support your cause," Lingle told attendees. "This decision by the 9th Circuit was not a just decision."

After the rally, attendees made their way down South King Street and up Nuuanu Avenue to the Royal Mausoleum. Some waved upside-down Hawaiian flags, while others carried signs that read, "Hawaiians only" and "Stop stealing from Hawaiians."

Police estimated the crowd at between 10,000 and 15,000 people.

At the head of the procession, two men carried a portrait of Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop, whose trust paved the way for the creation of Kamehameha Schools.

On Tuesday, a three-judge 9th Circuit panel ruled 2-to-1 that Kamehameha's admission policy amounted to "unlawful race discrimination." The ruling reverses a Nov. 17 decision by U.S. District Judge Alan Kay that tossed out a challenge by an anonymous student to the school's admissions policy.

The next step in the appeals process is for Kamehameha Schools to request a hearing by the full 9th Circuit and possibly to the U.S. Supreme Court.
"We need to consider the unthinkable -- that somehow this further appeal may not be accepted," trustee Doug Ing told yesterday's crowd, adding that school officials are thinking about "Plan B," which includes deciding what the schools' admission policy would look like if it wasn't race-based.

A ruling on whether Kamehameha should be compelled to admit the boy, identified only as "John Doe," at the center of the case is expected as early as this week. If admitted for the 2005-06 school year, the student would enter his senior year. Kamehameha officials have said they will not willingly admit the boy.

"Hawaiians deserve to have something of their own," said Brenda Ryan, one of many non-Hawaiians who attended yesterday's events, as she marched along South King Street.

"I'm Hawaiian," Ryan's husband, Russell, piped in. "And this ruling is disgusting."

Both supporters and opponents of the Akaka Bill attended the rally and march. Proponents of the bill argue it would help protect Kamehameha, along with other Hawaiians-only programs and institutions, from future challenges. Others, though, say the bill wants native Hawaiians to give up too much.

But rather than focus on differences, protesters were encouraged to focus on what brought them together. The more united they are, they said, the stronger the message.
"There is a strong unity, even within the divisions of our community," said Kainoa Fukumoto, a 2002 graduate of Kamehameha. "We have to fight for the rights that we have left."

Several speakers echoed the sentiments.

Kumu Hina Wong, a charter schoolteacher, got shouts and whistles of support after telling attendees, "It doesn't matter where you stand, you just better show up."

In a speech that was interrupted at least three times by applause, Kamehameha trustee Nainoa Thompson said native Hawaiians are now in a "time of crisis."

"We have got to come together," he said. "No longer can we divide."

About 12 police officers and eight state Department of Public Safety officers worked overtime, for about $30 an hour, to provide security and control traffic.
The mayor has said that the officers' pay was covered by Kamehameha Schools.

The rally at Iolani Palace coincided with events across the state and on the mainland.

Rallies and marches were held on Maui, the Big Island, Kauai and Molokai. In Wilmington, Calif., a rally and open forum was held from 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Similar events happened in Oregon and on the East Coast, said Dee Jay Mailer, Kamehameha's chief executive officer.

"All over the world, Hawaiians are standing as one," she said. "When we leave here today, we are one."


Access article here: http://starbulletin.com/2005/08/07/news/index1.html (http://starbulletin.com/2005/08/07/news/index1.html)

Also check out:
Rally cry 'Justice Now!': http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/07/ln/508070340.html (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/07/ln/508070340.html)
Emotions spill over at rally against ruling: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/07/ln/508070342.html (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Aug/07/ln/508070342.html)

I got this e-mail from my friend doing the Asian American Studies Hawai'i program. As I understand it, many non-native white Hawai'ians are challenging an admissions policy contesting "reverse discrimination" when the charter of this school and the person who's trust funds the school, wanted the school to be for the Hawai'ian people. A people, if I may add, that had a similar history of having their land and culture stripped away by both social and economic forces. Help them protect what's left. Fucked up.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Well sure, if they're privately funded, they should be able to do whatever they want.

Now how about extending the same courtesy to every other organization in the country?

[younggiftedandblack]

I thought this school was recieving some type of public aid also?

[hooligan]

Well sure, if they're privately funded, they should be able to do whatever they want.

Now how about extending the same courtesy to every other organization in the country?

I believe there is a trust that dictates the terms of the school, the same one, if you read the article stated by Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop. She wanted a school for only Hawai'ians. The point isn't necessarily they can do whatever they want, the point of the article is to see that those people who feel the most threatened that they be excluded from attending, challenge this and win. Someone pointed out the feasability of schools for only a certain group of people and I pointed out how unlikely it was to be funded and supported.

This proves my point.

I thought this school was recieving some type of public aid also?

That's not the point.

http://starbulletin.com/2001/12/19/news/story10.html

Kamehameha offering funds
to public schools

It proposes to spend $50 million to
reach 46,000 students across the state



By Crystal Kua
ckua@starbulletin.com (ckua@starbulletin.com?subject=http://starbulletin.com/2001/12/19/)

Kekaha Elementary school principal Billi Smith said he believes 100 percent of the students in West Kauai could attain high school diplomas, along with other academic bonuses if area public schools get the extra financial boost that the Kamehameha Schools is promising.


"If we had the resources come down to the school ... we could have smaller class sizes, empower teachers to attend staff development and to go beyond with reading and writing," said Smith, whose student population consists of 40 percent Hawaiian children including a small percentage from the Hawaiians-only island of Niihau.

Kamehameha Schools yesterday announced an ambitious plan to spend more than $50 million to reach more than 46,000 students in various programs.

Under the plan, Kamehameha Schools would continue to run its private school campuses and preschools across the state, make scholarships available to Hawaiian children to attend other preschools, infuse more money into public schools in communities with a high concentration of Hawaiian children and reach out to more special needs children.

"The trustees are saying we're missing a lot of kids. We've taken the best and the brightest but what about everybody else," said Hamilton McCubbin, Kamehameha Schools' chief executive officer.

About 1,057 students are enrolled in Kamehameha preschools and 3,500 at its kindergarten-through-12th grade private school campuses on Oahu, Maui and the Big Island. Another 15,000 students are in career education and community- extension education programs.

"We will definitely continue direct services," said Charlene Hoe, Kamehameha project coordinator. "That by itself is not going to meet the needs. That by itself is not going to meet the target."

The first major component would make scholarships available for 10,000 more students to attend accredited preschools other than those run by Kamehameha. Certain incentives would be provided for these schools to improve their facilities and help with accreditation.

"If we're going to impact our future generations to take us out of poverty, create more opportunities, we're going to have to reach the kids earlier," McCubbin said.

The second major component would be to funnel more money into the public schools, an effort to reach more special needs children.

"We have many kids within the (Department of Education System) that need some support as well and that's where most of the Hawaiians are," McCubbin said. "The question is: How do we reach them?"

Kamehameha plans to create a nonprofit entity that would be driven by the community, with a Kamehameha presence on its board to oversee funding.

The state Department of Education would provide the school facilities, faculty and staff and operating budget and Kamehameha would match the school operating budget dollar for dollar.

"If we can explore a way to get with the community and with the department of education and at the community campuses, we might be able to collectively raise the bar for education delivery," Hoe said.

Because a public school is involved, students of all ethnic backgrounds would be able to attend. Kauai is one of the first places Kamehameha is looking to become involved.

Smith, who also is a parent of Kamehameha student, said extra funding from Kamehameha could also help with alienated youths at the middle school level, many of whom happen to be Hawaiian. "Anything that can help us to provide lifelong learning and give back to their community would be really sweet," Smith said.

Kamehameha plans to fund the projects through various means, including increasing its endowment, funding construction through debt financing, and reallocating funds for current programs, McCubbin said. The school hasn't decided whether it will raise tuition, McCubbin said. The plan would require approval from the probate court and the Internal Revenue Service, as well as a change in legislation to allow it to function within the public school system. Sen. Norman Sakamoto, chairman of the Senate Education Committee, said details on legislation have not been worked out yet, but the concept would be similar to the charter school process.

[raacluse]

This coming Saturday, Aug. 13, you can hear John Roberts argue for the State of Hawaii in a case that was heard by the Supreme Court. (Oct., '99)
CSPAN radio
6pm EDT
local: WCSP 90.1 FM
satellite: Sirius & XM
internet: www.cspan.org (click on radio arrows)

"...is known in Hawai'i for his work on Rice vs. Cayetano, a case that challenged a 20-year practice allowing only Hawaiians to vote for trustees at the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, an agency that administers programs to benefit Hawaiian.

Roberts represented the state, which lost."

[hooligan]

This coming Saturday, Aug. 13, you can hear John Roberts argue for the State of Hawaii in a case that was heard by the Supreme Court. (Oct., '99)
CSPAN radio
6pm EDT
local: WCSP 90.1 FM
satellite: Sirius & XM
internet: www.cspan.org (http://www.cspan.org/) (click on radio arrows)

"...is known in Hawai'i for his work on Rice vs. Cayetano, a case that challenged a 20-year practice allowing only Hawaiians to vote for trustees at the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, an agency that administers programs to benefit Hawaiian.

Roberts represented the state, which lost."

Thanks, go Roberts, yeah right.

[Chad]

There are similar things found in American Indian facilities. Only persons with a certain amount of AI heritage qualify for certain services. This is called "getting your Indian card." In most situations this would be a bad thing but when considered in historical context I think it's good. American Indians and natives of Hawai'i never asked for other people to come over and commit genocide on them. I think this is the least those of us who are living off their deaths and misfortunes can do for them. I don't have any problem with paying taxes to fund reservations and schools for them.

[hooligan]

What I'd like to add is that this assumes that people of color, indigenous peoples and white people are somehow all equal. That white people, even though they're like 70% of this country, somehow are affected by racism and discrimination the same way people of color are. I think that's the main point of this exercise of law, the question I think this case poses is that: Are people of color equal when it comes to the affects of racism and if we act in a discriminatory manner is it somehow on the same level (if at all) as white racism and discrimination?

[bluemonq]

[public funding] not the point.
it might not be, but it should be. the school system can do whatever it wants - if it uses its own money or money given to it by people who want to do so. i support the ideas that the trust was created to promulgate. but if it takes federal or state funds, then it has to abide by the rules, including any thing concerning discrimnation, of either the staus quo or reverse flavors. just because some piece of shit discriminates against me for my race, discrinminating against someone else of his ethnicity isn't right, even if it feels good. simple solution concerning this particular obstacle: stop taking public funds. they're not going to get anywhere until this happens.

anyhow, there's probably some sort of technical way to get around this ruling; it'll just take some time to find. like, if you can submit proof that you have ancestors who lived in the region 200 years ago, you can be considered. that 200 year part - that's not racial discrimination now is it? it's promoting and preserving local culture and history. :biggrin:

[hooligan]

it might not be, but it should be. the school system can do whatever it wants - if it uses its own money or money given to it by people who want to do so. i support the ideas that the trust was created to promulgate. but if it takes federal or state funds, then it has to abide by the rules, including any thing concerning discrimnation, of either the staus quo or reverse flavors. just because some piece of shit discriminates against me for my race, discrinminating against someone else of his ethnicity isn't right, even if it feels good. simple solution concerning this particular obstacle: stop taking public funds. they're not going to get anywhere until this happens.

anyhow, there's probably some sort of technical way to get around this ruling; it'll just take some time to find. like, if you can submit proof that you have ancestors who lived in the region 200 years ago, you can be considered. that 200 year part - that's not racial discrimination now is it? it's promoting and preserving local culture and history. :biggrin:

sure, but you've got to understand, i can make the same arguement why we HAVE to learn about european history. It bothers me that they don't talk about one of the greatest empires on the face of this earth and they're suing MY tax dollars to teach history, give me a break.

[Craig]

sure, but you've got to understand, i can make the same arguement why we HAVE to learn about european history. It bothers me that they don't talk about one of the greatest empires on the face of this earth and they're suing MY tax dollars to teach history, give me a break.You're in California ... You should be used to your tax dollars being wasted profusely ...

[hooligan]

You're in California ... You should be used to your tax dollars being wasted profusely ...

Prison industrial complex? Of course.

[bluemonq]

sure, but you've got to understand, i can make the same arguement why we HAVE to learn about european history. It bothers me that they don't talk about one of the greatest empires on the face of this earth and they're suing MY tax dollars to teach history, give me a break.
which would be all well and good, except for the fact that the country now known as the united states - which hawaii is now part of, against its will or not - can find its roots most directly in europe. part of a citizen's civic duty is to understand their society, and one has to draw upon history; those who do not learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes in the future and whatnot. in the case of the united states, europe is most assuredly involved in its history (whether people are learning is another story)

"great," you say, "but these days, we're influenced by other continents too; shouldn't they appear in our curriculum too?" old habits die hard. which is not to say that it *should* be this way, but when you're living in a country dominated by european descendants (in the short-term time scale anyway) it's not surprising that many would want to keep the focus on europe and only with much pushing will things change. well, if you don't like the current state of affairs, then campaign for curriculum modification, as i - and many other students and parents did -at my school, and 'lo and behold, 9th grade history is now focused on china, japan, and india. 10th grade is the united states. 11th grade is europe and mideast. 12th grade is electives. ok, you're out of high school. then try to affect change at your local junior and senior high schools.

[hooligan]

which would be all well and good, except for the fact that the country now known as the united states - which hawaii is now part of, against its will or not - can find its roots most directly in europe. part of a citizen's civic duty is to understand their society, and one has to draw upon history; those who do not learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes in the future and whatnot. in the case of the united states, europe is most assuredly involved in its history (whether people are learning is another story)

"great," you say, "but these days, we're influenced by other continents too; shouldn't they appear in our curriculum too?" old habits die hard. which is not to say that it *should* be this way, but when you're living in a country dominated by european descendants (in the short-term time scale anyway) it's not surprising that many would want to keep the focus on europe and only with much pushing will things change. well, if you don't like the current state of affairs, then campaign for curriculum modification, as i - and many other students and parents did -at my school, and 'lo and behold, 9th grade history is now focused on china, japan, and india. 10th grade is the united states. 11th grade is europe and mideast. 12th grade is electives. ok, you're out of high school. then try to affect change at your local junior and senior high schools.

You're missing the point, these people are learning about an education that is relevant to their history as a people. If you're going to make a long drawn out argument about this, you should actually be talking about Asian American history and the contributions to Asian Americans to this country. Which, I think, should be funded regardless. I'm surprised you haven't asked yourself why isn't Asian history a topic worth devoting an AP class too.

Also, if I recall, most institutions of education receive public funding in a direct or indirect way. Next question?

by the way the last time i checked native hawai'ians sure as hell don't believe their history is directly linked to europe. unless you mean the raping of a land and people by colonizers? How about answering that question, does racism and discrimination have the same impact on a community coming from minorities of the dominant peoples?

[bluemonq]

You're missing the point, these people are learning about an education that is relevant to their history as a people. If you're going to make a long drawn out argument about this, you should actually be talking about Asian American history and the contributions to Asian Americans to this country. Which, I think, should be funded regardless. I'm surprised you haven't asked yourself why isn't Asian history a topic worth devoting an AP class too.

Also, if I recall, most institutions of education receive public funding in a direct or indirect way. Next question?
the Advanced Placement Program was started in the 1950s. It wasn't until 1996 that AP World History was even considered, and real work wasn't done until 1999. The first test was in 2002. i really don't see an AP Asian History until 2008 at the earliest, based on that timescale. and the considerations in developing that program would be much more immense. im pretty sure that it will be introduced, barring some sort of military/political conflict.

why did i talk about asian history and not asian-american history being introduced? it was - integrated as part of american history. my old elective teachers have also told me that asian-american related electives will be introduced in the next few years. also, after examining my school's annual audits, i find very little public funding, a few percent that will be soon covered by the endowment that it is slowly building. and yes, if you want to say "indirectly", then sure, but to what degree? you could say that most private corporations in the united states are indirectly publicly funded. you have to define it.

by the way the last time i checked native hawai'ians sure as hell don't believe their history is directly linked to europe. unless you mean the raping of a land and people by colonizers? How about answering that question, does racism and discrimination have the same impact on a community coming from minorities of the dominant peoples?
by your token, african-americans have no reason to study anything about europe, since they were merely enslaved by them and can derive no benefit from any european studies. but no. as citizens of the united states (regardless of the conditions of the annexation, and until they secede from the united states, that is what they are), be they hawai'ians, african-americans, native americans, whatever - as citizens of the united states, they are affected by the nation's present, and therefore its past. the united states' past is rooted in europe, and therefore it makes sense to require the study of european history. now, whether that should be half-year or full-year, that's another story...

[hooligan]

What's the point of listing the history? The question was simple, is the history of Asia on the AP exam? No, it isn't, and what does European history have anything to do with what the students in a privately funded Hawai'ian institution have to learn from it? You sure sound like those people who somehow find a way to justify colonialism.

If you think that Asian American history is somehow taught in public education, I'm sure you'll be proud to know that we got a couple of sentences or so. I'll believe it when I see it.

Do they get public funding? Yes? Good, it answers the question. Why does it matter that it receives a few percentages?

So, the Kamehameha Schools can control their admissions because they receive only a little public funding right? They can control what they want to teach. Or does it work on some sliding scale? European History to the Kamehameha School curriculum has little impact as much as Hawai'ian history and its relationship with the US. Why do we have to learn European history?

Apparently, they're recognized as Native Americans,but they don't want to give Native Hawai'ians all federal benefits. That's crap.

Federal Developments
[edit]
Native American Programs Act
In 1974, the Native American Programs Act was amended to include native Hawaiians as a category of indigenous people of the United States. This paved the way for native Hawaiians to become eligible for some, but not all, federal assistance programs originally meant for Native Americans. In order to become eligible for all such programs, further legislation is currently needed.

[edit]
United States Apology Resolution
On 23 November 1993, U.S. President William Jefferson Clinton signed United States Public Law 103-150 also known as the Apology Resolution. It had been passed by Congress only weeks earlier. The document officially apologized on behalf of the United States government for the illegal overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawai‘i and the use of American troops against Queen Lili‘uokalani.

[edit]
Akaka Bill
In the early 2000s, the Congressional delegation of the State of Hawaii introduced the Native Hawaiian Federal Recognition Bill named after U.S. Senator Daniel K. Akaka (D-HI). The Akaka Bill would establish a political and legal relationship between native Hawaiian entities and the federal government.

Current status of the Akaka Bill

The question is: Does racism and discrimination by a minority have the same affect and results and same reasons that racism and discrimination done by the majority have?

[bluemonq]

the court ruling has to deal with admissions. the issue at hand is not the curriculum. if you accept federal or state money, then you need to comply with whatever conditions are attached to that money, or be willing to part with it. as it currently stands, my old high school does not violate any of the conditions associated with its public funding. if it does, it will have to face the consequences. public education funding is for just that, public education, education accessible to the public. if a neo-nazi wants to open a school and keep it open only to aryans, fine. if a homophobe wants to open a school strictly for straight people only, fine. if a vegan wants to open a school open to only those who are radical environmental fundamentalists, fine. if a person of chinese descent wants to open a school open to only children of chinese descent, fine. just don't expect public funding for it under federal statutes that do not permit the funding of organizations, societies, associations, charter schools, etc. discrimination by race, creed, etc. the discrimination may not be particulary malevolent or detrimental, but that's what it still is. if you allow it now, you're setting a precedent. maybe in practical terms it won't mean much, but once you set a legal precedent, unless the ruling is overturned - well, the Law of Unintended Consequences definitely rears its ugly head in the legal system; it'll be better not to sanction it. anyhow, i already proposed the way they could get around the issue.

if you want to talk about why there isn't an AP Asian History, or why Hawai'ians should have to learn European History, or even the status of Hawai'ians as native americans, start another thread and i'll be happy to discuss the issue with you next week after my finals. as for right now, i plan on going to sleep :tongue:

[hooligan]

the court ruling has to deal with admissions. the issue at hand is not the curriculum. if you accept federal or state money, then you need to comply with whatever conditions are attached to that money, or be willing to part with it. as it currently stands, my old high school does not violate any of the conditions associated with its public funding. if it does, it will have to face the consequences. public education funding is for just that, public education, education accessible to the public. if a neo-nazi wants to open a school and keep it open only to aryans, fine. if a homophobe wants to open a school strictly for straight people only, fine. if a vegan wants to open a school open to only those who are radical environmental fundamentalists, fine. if a person of chinese descent wants to open a school open to only children of chinese descent, fine. just don't expect public funding for it under federal statutes that do not permit the funding of organizations, societies, associations, charter schools, etc. discrimination by race, creed, etc. the discrimination may not be particulary malevolent or detrimental, but that's what it still is. if you allow it now, you're setting a precedent. maybe in practical terms it won't mean much, but once you set a legal precedent, unless the ruling is overturned - well, the Law of Unintended Consequences definitely rears its ugly head in the legal system; it'll be better not to sanction it. anyhow, i already proposed the way they could get around the issue.

if you want to talk about why there isn't an AP Asian History, or why Hawai'ians should have to learn European History, or even the status of Hawai'ians as native americans, start another thread and i'll be happy to discuss the issue with you next week after my finals. as for right now, i plan on going to sleep :tongue:

It's a private school.

Admissions policy

In 2003, Brayden Mohica-Cummings became only the second non-Hawaiian admitted to Kamehameha Schools in forty years. His family launched one of the school's most significant challenges to its Hawaiians-only admissions policy.In accordance with the will of Bernice Pauahi Bishop, the Kamehameha Schools gives preference in admissions to applicants of Native Hawaiian descent "to the extent permitted by law." Special consideration is also given to orphans and "indigent" applicants. [4]

The admissions policy of Kamehameha Schools has been a subject of controversy in recent years. In 2002 Kamehameha Schools admitted a non-Hawaiian student to its Maui campus for the first time in 40 years. The student was admitted after all qualified Hawaiian applicants were admitted. This decision sparked protest from the Hawaiian community and Kamehameha alumni.

Kamehameha Schools was a defendant in two lawsuits in 2003 in regard to its admissions policy. In June 2003, an unidentified non-Hawaiian student sued Kamehameha Schools in federal court claiming that its preference in admitting Hawaiian students violated federal anti-discrimination law. In November, Hawaii District Judge Alan Kay dismissed the lawsuit, finding that Kamehameha Schools serves a "legitimate, remedial purpose by improving native Hawaiians' socioeconomic and educational disadvantages." [5] The case is currently on appeal to the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

The second lawsuit was filed in August 2003 by Brayden Mohica-Cummings, a seventh-grade applicant who was admitted to the Kapalama Heights campus after his mother, who was adopted by a Hawaiian family, said her son was Hawaiian. But the offer was rescinded after Santos was unable to document her son's Hawaiian ancestry. [6] Because the admission offer was rescinded a week before the school year was scheduled to start, Federal Judge David Ezra issued a temporary restraining order requiring Kamehameha to admit Mohica-Cummings pending a final decision on the case. The case was settled out-of-court in November 2003, when Kamehameha Schools agreed to let Mohica-Cummings attend until he graduates in exchange for dropping the lawsuit. [7]

It's also ruled that the schools served an important purpose.

Do you even know how much federal monies they receive?

There's no one yet in support of the appeal except for me? No one sees the obvious campaign against people of color? In an instution funded by a woman's dream that native Hawai'ians be given the opportunity to be protected and have a space that uniquely theirs be assualted by the dominant peoples clamoring about reverse racism and discrimination? No one sees the irony in this?

Except for Chad, because he gets it.

[bluemonq]

It's a private school.
the trust that funds this school is non-profit, just like my school is, a private, non-profit entity. therefore, any tax revenue that would otherwise be collected remains with the school. therefore, considering your earlier statements, the Kamehameha Schools are indirectly (and one step removed) from being funded by taxpayers, who therefore have to foot the bill for costs that would be otherwise paid for by the monies collected from the trust. that's tax law for you. if they decline their non-profit status and then not make any revenue, they still won't have to pay taxes and then they have a completely free hand. you will note that in 1983, the supreme court upheld a ruling that revoked the tax-exempt status of bob jones university in south carolina, the one that discriminated against african-americans in admissions.


It's also ruled that the schools served an important purpose.

you'll have to (and should easily) come up with a better criterion than that. many faith-based charities play an important role in what is euphemistically termed "economically depressed neighborhoods", yet you wouldn't want federal funding for them now would you?


Do you even know how much federal monies they receive?

up until 2001, kamehameha received something in the neighborhood of $3 million, per the september 8th issue of the honolulu star-bulletin. that's *direct* federal funding, which they voluntarily conceded, when the admissions issue had begun to creep up. good for them. if they also voluntarily conceded their non-profit status, then they can do whatever the hell they want.


There's no one yet in support of the appeal except for me? No one sees the obvious campaign against people of color? In an instution funded by a woman's dream that native Hawai'ians be given the opportunity to be protected and have a space that uniquely theirs be assualted by the dominant peoples clamoring about reverse racism and discrimination? No one sees the irony in this?

Except for Chad, because he gets it.
ironic or not, we're working within the framework of laws and legal precedents. if you don't like the way things currently are, then work towards changing them. this means at least one of two things: (a) native hawai'ians considered as native americans in the legal system, and/or (b) changing tax-law. in the short-term, if kamehameha schools want to operate as they wish, then they'll have to give up their non-profit status. as you can see from bob jones university, following this, they would be free to set their admissions policy as they see fit.

[hooligan]

the trust that funds this school is non-profit, just like my school is, a private, non-profit entity. therefore, any tax revenue that would otherwise be collected remains with the school. therefore, considering your earlier statements, the Kamehameha Schools are indirectly (and one step removed) from being funded by taxpayers, who therefore have to foot the bill for costs that would be otherwise paid for by the monies collected from the trust. that's tax law for you. if they decline their non-profit status and then not make any revenue, they still won't have to pay taxes and then they have a completely free hand. you will note that in 1983, the supreme court upheld a ruling that revoked the tax-exempt status of bob jones university in south carolina, the one that discriminated against african-americans in admissions.

you'll have to (and should easily) come up with a better criterion than that. many faith-based charities play an important role in what is euphemistically termed "economically depressed neighborhoods", yet you wouldn't want federal funding for them now would you?

up until 2001, kamehameha received something in the neighborhood of $3 million, per the september 8th issue of the honolulu star-bulletin. that's *direct* federal funding, which they voluntarily conceded, when the admissions issue had begun to creep up. good for them. if they also voluntarily conceded their non-profit status, then they can do whatever the hell they want.


ironic or not, we're working within the framework of laws and legal precedents. if you don't like the way things currently are, then work towards changing them. this means at least one of two things: (a) native hawai'ians considered as native americans in the legal system, and/or (b) changing tax-law. in the short-term, if kamehameha schools want to operate as they wish, then they'll have to give up their non-profit status. as you can see from bob jones university, following this, they would be free to set their admissions policy as they see fit.
LOL. I knew you were going to quote the Bob Jones case. Here's a question I've asked in the previous three posts or so. ROFL. Obvious, religion is somehow the same as race.

Is racism or discrimination by minorities on the same level as racism and discrimination by majorities? Regardless of laws or precedents, I understand how racism is playing a role in here, if you choose to deny that, then you're missing the point of what this ruling means. If you like to make the case that racism is equal, then I have to ask, are the Hawai'ians as equal as the white people trying to get into the university?

By the way, I guess we agree then, all private and public schools receive public funding.

[yoMAMA]

As a former Hawaiian resident and someone who is not eligible for attending Kamehameha school, i'm outraged by this decision. :mad:

hopefully the supreme court can overturn it.

and BTW, there's an elite prep school with lots of non native hawaiians (punahou, where their alumnis, includes, senator barack obama of illinois).

King Kamehameha is reserved for native hawaiians, and now some readtionary people even wants to take that way.

disgusting. :mad:

[bluemonq]

LOL. I knew you were going to quote the Bob Jones case. Here's a question I've asked in the previous three posts or so. ROFL. Obvious, religion is somehow the same as race.
the case in bob jones tried to use religion as a smokescreen for their unofficially admitted position on admissions and the factor that race plays. otherwise, how would you explain the later change on the position of race? the religious beliefs of the entire school suddenly changed? please.


Is racism or discrimination by minorities on the same level as racism and discrimination by majorities? Regardless of laws or precedents, I understand how racism is playing a role in here, if you choose to deny that, then you're missing the point of what this ruling means.

to answer your question, "Is racism or discrimination by minorities on the same level as racism and discrimination by majorities?": in an objective sense, yes. discrimination is discrimination. of course, we live in the real world; in a practical sense, no, it is not on the same level in terms of how pronounced the effects are, or the lost benefits are, or the harm caused. but if we continue in the practical sense, you *cannot* ignore law and precedent. this ruling applies to the real world but will be woven into the theoretical construct of law, forever influencing the real world from then on. the results of a successful appeal and upheld by the supreme court if it gets that far would be setting in stone (except in the case of a change in the supreme courts occurs) "discrimination is bad, but some discrimination is less bad then others, so the second kind is ok". i that's not right. do you think it is?


By the way, I guess we agree then, all private and public schools receive public funding.
any school that accepts federal/state/local government funds and/or has a tax-exempt status receives public funding. there are a number of schools scattered around the states that foirgo both; it was talked about on "all things considered" early last year. so no, not ALL private and public schools receive public funding.

[yoMAMA]

I don't remember learning european history in my elementary school in hawaii (although I only went there for grades 1 to 3).

but I do remember Hawaiian language is a mandatory course (we had a big hawaiian lady who's also a famous activist for native hawaiian causes, and I always see her on TV protesting something).

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I think I've forgotten 95% of all the history that I've ever learned in school, European, American, or Asian.

[hooligan]

the case in bob jones tried to use religion as a smokescreen for their unofficially admitted position on admissions and the factor that race plays. otherwise, how would you explain the later change on the position of race? the religious beliefs of the entire school suddenly changed? please.


to answer your question, "Is racism or discrimination by minorities on the same level as racism and discrimination by majorities?": in an objective sense, yes. discrimination is discrimination. of course, we live in the real world; in a practical sense, no, it is not on the same level in terms of how pronounced the effects are, or the lost benefits are, or the harm caused. but if we continue in the practical sense, you *cannot* ignore law and precedent. this ruling applies to the real world but will be woven into the theoretical construct of law, forever influencing the real world from then on. the results of a successful appeal and upheld by the supreme court if it gets that far would be setting in stone (except in the case of a change in the supreme courts occurs) "discrimination is bad, but some discrimination is less bad then others, so the second kind is ok". i that's not right. do you think it is?


any school that accepts federal/state/local government funds and/or has a tax-exempt status receives public funding. there are a number of schools scattered around the states that foirgo both; it was talked about on "all things considered" early last year. so no, not ALL private and public schools receive public funding.
Yes of course, because we all know race = religion.

[bluemonq]

Yes of course, because we all know race = religion.
i must be in the minority then. i do know that countless people and groups have justified their racism on religious grounds, only to have a federal court call bs. you might be interested in one example, Bob Jones University v. US (http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/39/). if you object to any relgious content in this discussion, you're welcome to examine Runyon v. McCrary (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=427&invol=160); the court ruled against racial preference in private schools.

[hooligan]

i must be in the minority then. i do know that countless people and groups have justified their racism on religious grounds, only to have a federal court call bs. you might be interested in one example, Bob Jones University v. US (http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/39/). if you object to any relgious content in this discussion, you're welcome to examine Runyon v. McCrary (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=427&invol=160); the court ruled against racial preference in private schools.

I honestly think that it's a backlash against racial progress.

[bluemonq]

I honestly think that it's a backlash against racial progress.
Runyon v. McCrary?: it was a 1976 finding for two african-american children who weren't allowed to attend the private school.

Bob Jones University v. US: huh?

countless people and groups justifying their racism on religious grounds: undoubtedly.

[hooligan]

Runyon v. McCrary?: it was a 1976 finding for two african-american children who weren't allowed to attend the private school.

Bob Jones University v. US: huh?

countless people and groups justifying their racism on religious grounds: undoubtedly.

The question is: Does racism and discrimination by a minority have the same affect and results and same reasons that racism and discrimination done by the majority have?

Answer that question, when you do, it'll all make sense.

[bluemonq]

i've already answered it. i suppose either you didn't read my previous posts or i didn't make myself clear; you'd be the last person i think to pull a chu chi. either way, i'll do it in a very clear manner.

QUESTION: Does racism and discrimination by a minority have the same affect and results and same reasons that racism and discrimination done by the majority have?
ANSWER: No, but it doesn't make it right.

clear enough?

[hooligan]

i've already answered it. i suppose either you didn't read my previous posts or i didn't make myself clear; you'd be the last person i think to pull a chu chi. either way, i'll do it in a very clear manner.

QUESTION: Does racism and discrimination by a minority have the same affect and results and same reasons that racism and discrimination done by the majority have?
ANSWER: No, but it doesn't make it right.

clear enough?

So, if it doesn't have the same affects obviously Native Hawai'ians wanting an institution for learning, for Native Hawai'ians is fundamentally different than white people keeping Black people from attending their college. Right?

Now, since most institutions of learning accept public funding, regardless of funding an intrusion by white folk asserting privilege is much different than people of color trying to protect what little privilege they have left.

[bluemonq]

So, if it doesn't have the same affects obviously Native Hawai'ians wanting an institution for learning, for Native Hawai'ians is fundamentally different than white people keeping Black people from attending their college. Right?
no one's saying that the kamehameha schools should be shut down. the issue is whether the school, private or not, is allowed to prevent or hinder people of non-native hawai'ian descent from going to the school because of their race. Brown v Board says no in public schools, Runyon v. McCrary says no in private schools.

Now, since most institutions of learning accept public funding, regardless of funding an intrusion by white folk asserting privilege is much different than people of color trying to protect what little privilege they have left.
i'm having some trouble reading this, but you're saying, since most schools take public funds, it's a moot point? no, it isn't. the rules are very, very simple. if you want local funds, you follow local regulations. if you want state funds, you follow state regulations. if you want federal funds, you follow federal regulations. whether this is direct distribution or tax-exempt status, those are the rules. *any* school anywhere the united states should have their funds revoked if they don't follow the rules.

[hooligan]

no one's saying that the kamehameha schools should be shut down. the issue is whether the school, private or not, is allowed to prevent or hinder people of non-native hawai'ian descent from going to the school because of their race. Brown v Board says no in public schools, Runyon v. McCrary says no in private schools.

i'm having some trouble reading this, but you're saying, since most schools take public funds, it's a moot point? no, it isn't. the rules are very, very simple. if you want local funds, you follow local regulations. if you want state funds, you follow state regulations. if you want federal funds, you follow federal regulations. whether this is direct distribution or tax-exempt status, those are the rules. *any* school anywhere the united states should have their funds revoked if they don't follow the rules.

So, laws are obviously what judges right from wrong right? So, after conceding that discrimination by people of color is different than discrimination by the dominant people, you still maintain that these schools are doing something bad by keeping the admission process exclusive to native hawai'ians?

[bluemonq]

So, laws are obviously what judges right from wrong right? So, after conceding that discrimination by people of color is different than discrimination by the dominant people, you still maintain that these schools are doing something bad by keeping the admission process exclusive to native hawai'ians?
wrong. it's a common misconception, but laws are not what separate right from wrong. laws are the rules that society by proxy has set to explain how to live in that group with minimized detriment to the group as a whole, often (unfortunately) with a short-term outlook.

do i support what the kamehameha schools are doing? yes.

are they, ethically/morally speaking, doing something good? yes.

are they acting within the laws imposed upon citizens, associations and corporations of the united states? no. don't like the law? change it.

[hooligan]

wrong. it's a common misconception, but laws are not what separate right from wrong. laws are the rules that society by proxy has set to explain how to live in that group with minimized detriment to the group as a whole, often (unfortunately) with a short-term outlook.

do i support what the kamehameha schools are doing? yes.

are they, ethically/morally speaking, doing something good? yes.

are they acting within the laws imposed upon citizens, associations and corporations of the united states? no. don't like the law? change it.No, you're missing the point of the demonstrations, what you have is a dominant culture once again asserting itself based on egalitarian beliefs that everyone should be treated equal. Fundamentally, that should be true, but honestly, we do not live in an meritocracy and we do not live in an egalitarian society. The schools are doing something really good and what we have here is a gregarious stripping of privilege from an already abused people.

Is the playing field level yet? Hardly, if ever, will it be equal. The battle for these schools are simply a dismantling of whatever benefits we enjoyed from the 1970s when race actually mattered to politicians and policyamkers. What I'm contending is that race still matters and without schools like Kamehameha, where else are you going to find places that will be only for a people that have been horribly wronged. Can laws be racist? Yes, institutionalized racism can still be found in many places, coincidentally in higher education.

Answer me this, why would white people want to go to an Hawai'ian only institution when an elite "white" school is nearby?

[bluemonq]

No, you're missing the point of the demonstrations, what you have is a dominant culture once again asserting itself based on egalitarian beliefs that everyone should be treated equal. Fundamentally, that should be true, but honestly, we do not live in an meritocracy and we do not live in an egalitarian society. The schools are doing something really good and what we have here is a gregarious stripping of privilege from an already abused people.
so basically, you know, just f--- it, and don't bother anymore cuz its too dang hard?

Answer me this, why would white people want to go to an Hawai'ian only institution when an elite "white" school is nearby?
perhaps they don't like the curriculum of the elite school.
perhaps they have something against the headmaster.
perhaps they would rather to go a kamehameha school because they feel the school is a better fit than the public schools than the elite school. if they attend the school, and don't like it, then they won't go anymore, and the problem will be solved. no one's telling the schools that they have to cater to the whites or modify the curriculum to suit them.

ok, i'm offline til saturday on account of finals. wish me luck! or...not :tongue:

[hooligan]

so basically, you know, just f--- it, and don't bother anymore cuz its too dang hard?


perhaps they don't like the curriculum of the elite school.
perhaps they have something against the headmaster.
perhaps they would rather to go a kamehameha school because they feel the school is a better fit than the public schools than the elite school. if they attend the school, and don't like it, then they won't go anymore, and the problem will be solved. no one's telling the schools that they have to cater to the whites or modify the curriculum to suit them.

ok, i'm offline til saturday on account of finals. wish me luck! or...not :tongue:

Perhaps it's racism.

[nola]

white peeps cryin reverse discrimination is just the lowest thing.

[DragonKnight]

I find it amusing that a whole bunch of non-native Hawai'ian's are whining about the exclusion of non-natives to a school they basically won't have any interest in attending. What, a whole bunch of white kids wanna go to a exclusive Hawai'ian school? Can you imagine the idiotic questions asked there due to the lack of knowledge of true Hawai'ian history and heritage instead of the bullshit racist fucktarded history white historians like to feed us.

Native peoples have had their history, culture, and language fucked up as is by white europeans. Let the Hawai'ians keep those remaining shreds of heritage and pass it on to their children. If non-Natives wanna get the same lessons...then hire some fucking liberal teachers in *their* schools who'll tell the truth instead of the same bullshit standard lies of "White American" history.

[yoMAMA]

Answer me this, why would white people want to go to an Hawai'ian only institution when an elite "white" school is nearby?

Because Kamehameha high is VERY PRESTIGOUS.

[DragonKnight]

Because Kamehameha high is VERY PRESTIGOUS.
"Very prestigous" in comparison to the "elite white school nearby"?

[hooligan]

"Very prestigous" in comparison to the "elite white school nearby"?

Very prestigous because it's one of the few places where the privileged aren't allowed.

[nola]

Isn't Punahou more prestigious?

[yoMAMA]

"Very prestigous" in comparison to the "elite white school nearby"?

They are both very prestigious.

Kamehameha grads are regarded very very highly in Hawaii.

Isn't Punahou more prestigious?

I'm really sure who's more "prestiougs"......

but they are both very good schools.

[hkRT]

I think it's great to have a Native Hawaiian School that provides a curriculum and an environment that is sensitive to the Native Hawaiian culture and learning.

Ideally, it would be nice to incorporate a multicultural, non-ethnocentric curriculum and environment to the mainstream educational system in all public schools as well, where every person of different races and backgrounds can learn, interact and immerse in various cultural contexts and languages. The dominant learning will therefore be a multicultural one.

But this idealistic educational system is almost non-existent. The past and present mainstream educational systems have pretty much been about assimilation. There are no doubt improvements when comparing the past with the present in that there's now "universality" and inclusivesness of different races learning in the same school whereas in the past no coloreds were allowed, and before that, no women allowed. The problem is under the banner of "universality" and "diversity", there's really no effective cultural exchange or diversity from the making of school policies to administration to the designs of the curriculum to the teaching and learning. So what is happening is everyone, regardless of race or background, is basically assimilating and conforming to one known dominant culture that is insensitive to any other ones, that still permits and fosters age-old inequality, segregation, subtle or overt prejudice, and discrimination.


That is probably the main reason why private or semi-private schools such as the Native Hawaiian School come about in response to the needs for cultural specific learning, role models, developing positive self esteem and motivation in the students, which the public school system deems irrelevant and cannot provide.

I can see why it is understandably perceived as whiny when a white non-native Haiwaiian complains about not being admitted to the Native Hawaiian School. But I am just wondering, how does the school define Native Hawaiians?

I'm asking because it kinda reminds me of the Aboriginal peoples here in Canada. I've met some Aboriginal peoples here who are either full-blooded or mixed ranging from half-half to very little. Like every other people, I've met some that are very nice, very friendly people, and some not so good. I've also met a totally white-looking person that says she's actually a quarter Native or something. She says that because she has Native ancestry, she and her kids should be entitled to the same benefits as the registered Natives (e.g. no tuition fees for example in University, and other things) since the Canadian government signed an agreement with her ancestors and she feels that she should be entitled to these rights as well. However, she is not legally entitled to them. Personally, I don't like this individual much because she just isn't a very nice person, and secondly, she seems to be exploiting her Native background when she pretty much is treated like a white person by white people as she looks completely white and has very Caucasian first and last names. She also doesn't seem to be that open-minded towards other visible minorities that are NOT Native. For example, when a visible non-native minority speaks to her in broken english or a foreign language among themselves, she doesn't seem to have much respect towards them. Also, she has this mentality that she has gone through a lot of hardships in life that "model minorities" won't understand. But the thing is her "hardships" are not so much due to her obscure Native background but more from some bad decisions she made. Plus she thinks chinese are generally well-off and are at an advantage of getting hired. This kinda infuriates me because she just doesn't have a clue how much shit non-native minorities also have to face and how hard they have to work too. I just don't think of her as someone that truly identifies with Native culture and teachings...

[hooligan]

I can see why it is understandably perceived as whiny when a white non-native Haiwaiian complains about not being admitted to the Native Hawaiian School. But I am just wondering, how does the school define Native Hawaiians?

When I went to Hawai'i and talked to the bus driver for the tour I was on, he told me that as long as you can trace your family line down to a particular native Hawai'ian. You are good to go. I think Hawai'i is like, everyone's a little bit Hawai'ian and then there's the white folk.