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hooligan
07-28-2005, 09:19 AM
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0727-33.htm



Published on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
The Hidden Pages of CAFTA
by Liza Grandia


At 2,400 pages, the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) isn't really about trade. Frankly, you don't need 2,400 pages to eliminate tariffs and regulations on exports and imports. But, you might need 2,400 pages to smuggle through a new set of transnational corporate rights disguised by complicated legalese. I wonder, how many of our Congressional representatives will have even attempted to read this trade to me before next week's vote?

I recall in 1994 that only one senator Republican; Hank Brown (R-CO), accepted Ralph Nader's challenge to win $10,000 for charity by taking a simple ten-question quiz on the content of the World Trade Organization (WTO) agreement. After studying the agreement, Brown announced to the press: "I am a Republican, pro business and a proponent of the free market economy and I am here to speak out against the WTO. For when you read this text - and I invite my colleague senators to do this - you will understand that the WTO is fundamentally undemocratic."

Any naïve Congressperson who thinks CAFTA is merely about free trade should look carefully at its provisions on government contracts and corporate lawsuits, among others.

Government contracts. For any purchases over $117,000 (eventually to be lowered to $58,000), CAFTA forces governments to open up bidding to transnational corporations. That means that states will not longer be able to give preference to home-based businesses, and so mom and pop stores in Central America and the U.S. will suddenly be competing with the Bechtels and the Halliburtons of the world.

Corporate lawsuits against governments. Perhaps CAFTA's most worrisome provision expands the rights that corporations got under NAFTA to sue national governments over any laws perceived as barriers to trade and foreign investment. For instance, when California banned a carcinogenic gasoline additive called MTBE because it was seeping into the state's drinking water, the chemical manufacturer, Methanex, sued California for infringing on its trade rights under NAFTA and demanded $970 million in compensation. Such suits are a direct threat to democracy because they prioritize the profits of foreign corporations over a country's own environmental, social, and labor laws.

Already corporations are planning more such lawsuits. If CAFTA passes, a subsidiary of Harken Energy (on whose board George W. Bush once served) has said it will demand $58 billion from Costa Rica (whose entire GDP is only $37 billion) in compensation for hypothetical future lost profits, if they are not allowed to drill offshore in Costa Rica's protected Talamanca region--one of the planet's richest marine ecosystems, and a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

CAFTA also encourages privatization, especially for government services in health, water, energy, and social security. In agriculture, it will allow transnational agribusiness cartels to dump food commodities at below-market prices. It will forbid the public health sector from buying life-saving generic drugs for diseases like AIDS.

Upon close examination, one realizes that CAFTA is not a "free trade" agreement, but a corporate trade agreement that transforms foreign investment from a privilege to an inalienable right.

CAFTA is like having a house guest who cleans out your refrigerator, claims your nicest bed, spends hours in the bathroom, takes exclusive control of the television remote control, and then-like Paris Hilton-demands that you pay for the pleasure of her company and then writes you off as a business expense.

There are alternatives. If the U.S. is serious about strengthening economic ties with our closest neighbors, we could take a Common Market approach like Mercosur or the European Union. Europe opened up not only trade, but also labor markets to the lesser-developed regions of Europe. And, to help poorer member countries like Ireland become equal trading partners, the E.U. gives back 3.5% of Ireland's GDP in grants. In the meanwhile, the U.S. has a perfectly sound trade agreement with Central America called the Caribbean Basin Initiative, which already makes most of our trade with Central America duty free. Congress should defeat CAFTA and send the Bush administration back to negotiate a real trade agreement that every U.S. and Central American citizen can read in less time than the pages of King James version of the Bible and Gone With the Wind combined. Liza Grandia is an anthropologist who has lived and worked in Guatemala for more than six years. Her dissertation concerns the impacts of trade and globalization on the agrarian situation of the Q'eqchi' Maya people. Email: grandia@berkeley.edu (grandia@berkeley.edu).




http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0728-01.htm

Published on Thursday, July 28, 2005 by the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/28/house_passes_free_trade_agreement_in_tight_vote?mo de=PF)
House Passes Free-Trade Agreement in Tight Vote
After last-minute lobbying, Bush gets a CAFTA win

by Rick Klein
WASHINGTON -- President Bush eked out a hard-fought victory early this morning on his top trade priority, with the House of Representatives narrowly approving a free-trade agreement with Central American countries. The measure was widely viewed as a referendum on the Bush administration's trade policies.

The House's vote was held open for more than one hour to ensure passage, with the margin in favor of the Central American Free Trade Agreement by two votes. The final tally was 217 to 215.
The midnight arm-twisting capped a frenzied lobbying push by the Bush administration and House Republican leaders to secure support for the measure, which engendered strong opposition from Democrats and Republicans. House passage was the last obstacle to the pact's final approval because the Senate passed the measure last month.

In an indication of the stakes, the president made a rare lobbying visit to Capitol Hill yesterday to make personal appeals to wavering GOP House members. He urged members to think beyond the interests of their districts and argued that the United States should reward nations that support US policies in combating terrorism and pursuing democratic forms of government, according to members who attended the closed-door meeting.

''Those countries that democratically elected the president -- that are asking us collectively for help in this trade bill -- will be responded to positively," said Bill Thomas, Republican of California and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee.

Unlike in previous trade agreements, the overwhelming majority of Democrats opposed the Central American pact, arguing that the Central American Free Trade Agreement would cost American jobs. The agreement's failure to include adequate workforce and environmental standards warrant its rejection, said House minority leader Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California.

''It is a step backward for workers," Pelosi said. ''If the president wins this vote, he will have expended enormous resources to do so. He has all the power of the presidency, and all we have on the House Democratic side is the fact that we are right."

CAFTA, signed by Bush in May 2004, would eliminate most tariffs and import restrictions between the United States and five Central American nations -- Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua -- as well as the Dominican Republic. The agreement is expected to add $1.9 billion to the $16 billion-a-year Latin American market for US goods when fully implemented.

The agreement took on outsized political importance as the top trade agenda item being pushed by the Bush administration. It has become a lightning rod for tangentially connected issued such as outsourcing of jobs, the economic and environmental effects of globalization, and the legacy of the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement, the pact upon which CAFTA is modeled, said Mark Smith of the US Chamber of Commerce, which supports the agreement.

''If you take the agreement for what it is, it's kind of a slam-dunk case," said Smith, the chamber's managing director of Western Hemisphere affairs. ''But the reality is -- and why it's so difficult -- is this has become a proxy war on a number of different issues."

Bush administration officials said a defeat of CAFTA could hurt the United States in the current round of world trade talks and harm the administration's ability to strike more important deals with bigger economic powers in the future.

But critics warned that opening markets to countries with lower wages and labor standards would cause further losses in US manufacturing jobs. Studies have blamed NAFTA for the loss of between 500,000 and 900,000 jobs, though some claim those jobs would have been lost anyway as the American economy has evolved to reflect globalization.

''We need to negotiate better trade agreements, quite honestly," said Representative Stephen F. Lynch, a South Boston Democrat. ''It's a one-way agreement: We continue to ship jobs to them, and they continue to ship goods to us. That's not the way it's supposed to work."

Some Republicans who usually vote with their party broke with GOP leaders on the pact, citing concerns about domestic job losses and a growing trade deficit.

''I simply cannot support a free-trade agreement that I believe would do nothing to address these problems," said Representative Bob Ney, Republican of Ohio and chairman of the House Administration Committee. ''Before we move forward with new efforts to lower the barriers to international free trade, we must review the consequences of the policies of the past and address the problems of the present."

Bush joined Vice President Dick Cheney and US Trade Representative Rob Portman in meeting with House Republicans to make a case for CAFTA. He had private meetings and phone calls with other members later in the day, though the White House declined to identify the members involved in the meetings.

Representative C.L. ''Butch" Otter, Republican of Idaho, said GOP leaders promised pork-barrel spending and future legislation to undecided members, with a massive highway spending bill scheduled to be completed this week as a prime location for pet projects. Otter said he opposed CAFTA, despite personal lobbying from Bush at the White House.

''They're pulling out all the stops," Otter said. ''They're either promising or threatening. They've done everything they could."

Democrats sought to maintain party unity, with organized labor groups lobbying for CAFTA's defeat. Party leaders told members who are inclined to support free trade that every vote for CAFTA allows a Republican member to oppose it, according to Democratic House members.

Shortly before taking up CAFTA, the House voted 255 to 168 to establish a new monitoring system designed to ensure China's compliance with US trade regulations. The measure is opposed by the Bush administration and some business groups, which argue that it sends the wrong message to a burgeoning economic powerhouse with whom the United States is seeking to build a better relationship.

Democrats accused Republicans of pursuing a toothless bill on China to win votes for CAFTA by giving on-the-fence House members a chance to support a get-tough policy on trade before voting to open more markets. Senate minority leader Harry Reid said the China measure will not pass the Senate.

© Copyright 2005 Boston Globe

AltimaGTR
07-28-2005, 01:15 PM
Seems like most of its proponents didn't even get a good look at the document itself. 2,400 pages?! holy crap!

A.R.A.M.
07-28-2005, 02:57 PM
I don't think anybody in Congress actually reads the bills they vote on. They're too busy enjoying the attention of lobbyists and pontificating about what "the American people" stand for.

shane
07-28-2005, 07:06 PM
I don't think anybody in Congress actually reads the bills they vote on. They're too busy enjoying the attention of lobbyists and pontificating about what "the American people" stand for.

Legislation is an ugly business. Sometimes a tiny clause can make or break a bill, and on the other side of the spectrum, huge sweeping clauses can be snuck in by people who know what they're doing.

All this is just fairly standard legislative stuff. It's one thing to read the entire text of a bill, but almost all bills heavily cross reference and/or amend other laws, so even with the text, you can't really see what it says. For example, the USA PATRIOT Act has a bunch of supporters and detractors who have no idea what it really does - including many lawyers on both sides who only have a basic understanding of a few out of hundreds of sections.

For all the flak that lobbyists get, I think they do an ugly but necessary job in our government - sort out the ramifications of bills and present their findings to policymakers and the public.

hooligan
07-29-2005, 05:27 PM
Jeez, they kept the votes open an hour, until they got the votes they needed for it to pass.


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0728-20.htm

Published on Thursday, July 28, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
Democracy Sold Out - CAFTA Approved by Pork and a Hill of Beans
Razor Thin Vote Seals Fate Against More Expansion of NAFTA

by Deborah James

At 12:03 am on July 28th, the House of Representatives approved the Central America-Dominican Republic-United States Free Trade Agreement, CAFTA. CAFTA, which would expand NAFTA to Central America and the Dominican Republic, would devastate farmers, privatize essential public services, and accelerate the race to the bottom on wages in the US and all over Central America.

At the end of the allotted 15 minutes of voting time the count was 180 to 175 against CAFTA, so the Republican leadership kept the vote open over an hour, in order to bully legislators into approving the bill. In the final tally, which was 217 to 215, a full 15 Democrats voted in favor of big business by supporting CAFTA, while 25 Republicans defied the Bush Administration and voted against it. Democrats deserving of punishment include Representatives Bean (D-IL), Cooper (D-TN), Dicks (D-WA), Cuellar (D-WA), Hinojosa (D-TX), Jefferson (D-LA), Matheson (D-UT), Meeks (D-NY), Moore (D-KS), Moran (D-VA), Ortiz (D-TX), Skelton (D-MO), Snyder (D-AR), Tanner (D-TN), and Towns (D-NY). The full roll call vote is available at http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2005&rollnumber=443.

The Republicans who refrained from voting were known CAFTA opponents who evidently caved into hard-core bullying from their leadership. Yet stiff criticism also goes to the Democrats who could have prevented handing Bush a win on a silver platter by sticking to labor and their environment rather than corporate interests.

It seems that some Representatives have not reviewed the record of the massive failure of NAFTA, the agreement that cost a million US jobs and increased poverty in Mexico. NAFTA also caused the loss of 38,000 US family farms, while pushing 1.5 million Mexican farmers off their land. Yet others, like Hilda Solis (D-CA), the only Representative from Nicaragua, gave a passionate and compelling argument against CAFTA.

CAFTA was approved, and that will be the bottom line for communities in Central America and the US who will face years of decreasing living standards, falling wages, eroding environmental protection, and losing family farms because of CAFTA - not to mention the 275,000 HIV positive Central Americans who will be cut off from life-saving generic medicines because of the extremist patent monopolies embodied in the treaty.

In tonight’s vote, money values of big corporate interests trumped human values of worker’s rights, fair trade, and environmental protection. Once again, the people of the US – and the Democratic Party – lost an opportunity to deliver a crushing blow to the Bush Administration. Yet House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) predicted that Bush's win on CAFTA "will be a Pyrrhic victory for him, because we will take our message to the American people that we are the ones looking out for them."

Twisting Arms Until They Break into a Thousand Pieces

Since CAFTA was so damaging to American workers, the environment, and Central Americans, it wasn’t able to pass on its own merits. CAFTA’s passage was bought by an outrageous amount of pork barrel politics, and fake side deals that don’t amount to a hill of beans. Earlier this month, Republican leaders – in no secret maneuver – casually linked transportation and energy bill giveaways to support for CAFTA.

A report issued earlier this month by Public Citizens demonstrated that 89% of side deals negotiated to gain votes for previous trade deals have been broken. The side deals on sugar, labor, and textiles have all been exposed as band-aids that hardly cover the festering wounds of job loss that CAFTA will cause. And the China-punishing legislation hastily approved to buy another couple of votes was shown by the AFL-CIO to contain less protections for American jobs that other China legislation already in committee.

Unpacking the Rhetoric

A central tenet of Republican arguments rests on a projected theory that free trade delivers economic prosperity, ergo CAFTA will deliver development. Had the situation not been so tragic, it would have been comic to view Republicans repeatedly claiming that CAFTA would help poor Central Americans develop because they would have increased access to US imports. The problem with the theory, is, well, the results of the theory when applied.

After 25 years of following free-trade doctrine (opening markets, privatizing basic services, deregulating industry, lowering tariffs, orienting their production for export, and consecrating intellectual property) Latin Americans have achieved the lowest rate of economic growth in their history – less than .5% a year in the last 25 years, compared with a total of 80% during the previous 20 years. The main issue here is that so-called “free trade” doesn’t actual deliver the promised benefits – because it really has little to do with free trade, but much to do with transferring wealth and decision making power from the public to private, unaccountable elites known as multinational corporations. Until we have a sea change in what the US public understands by the phrase “free trade” we will continue to see our democracy turned into a political system of corporate rule.

Specter of 9/11

The US Trade Representative Robert Portman was joined by Vice President Dick Cheney in working the House floor tonight to secure votes. President Bush made a highly rare appearance in the House, mostly framing CAFTA as a security issue. As Bush's polling numbers fall, support for the war in Iraq recedes, and his top advisor Karl Rove is embroiled in a political scandal, Bush pushed hard for a “policy win” to attempt to demonstrate that he wasn’t a lame duck.

Bush’s primary argument centered around the outrageous argument that CAFTA would increase our national security. The phrase “fledgling democracy” was used so many times to refer to Central American countries that you’d think they had hatched last month, with the help of mother hen USA. Tom Delay has evidently taken up permanent residence in never-never land to be able to make arguments like, “It is good for our national security in supporting these fledgling democracies at our back door. It is good for our effort against illegal immigration. It is good for our economy.”

House Majority leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) pushed back hard against the ridiculous Bush hypothesis that CAFTA would increase national security. "Trade alone, devoid of basic living and working standards, has not, and will not, promote security, nor will it lift developing nations out of poverty," she said. "Our national security will not be improved by exploiting workers in Central America."

Republicans have been much more adept than progressives at linking issues of security with trade. We in the global economic justice movement must learn adapt our rhetoric and strategies to the political changes our country has undergone post-9/11, and make the argument that fair trade, not corporate globalization, will increase security. But we also need more collaboration with the movements for civil liberties and peace to link the issues, including from our progressive media, who barely covered CAFTA before it passed.

Vision for the Hemisphere

Republicans actually acknowledged that poverty – and a lack of hope for future economic opportunity – breed insecurity. But they have the math backwards. CAFTA will not eradicate poverty, but will greatly increase it The biggest impact of CAFTA, according to the think tank the Center for Economic and Policy Research, will be to push down wages. And the Administration continue to frame the issue of free trade and democracy as two sides of the same coin, rather than acknowledging that one is an economic platform that a well-functioning democracy may choose not to pursue.

CAFTA proponents repeatedly baited voters with the specter of an imminent takeover of Central America by alleged communist forces, harkening back to the wars and instability of the 1980s. “We can send free trade to Central America today, or we will be sending troops tomorrow” was a frequent refrain. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and Cuba’s Castro were constantly invoked as being ready to “fill the ideological void” if the Congress “turned their backs on Central America.” It was as if Central America was an empty vessel, waiting for US leadership to fill. It was the first time the subject of ALBA, the Venezuelan’s Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, was raised on the House floor – yet it was portrayed as a radical attack on America rather than a political and economic program that embodies a different vision for the future of the Americas based on a better vision of economic integration among the peoples of Latin America.

Stepping Stone to the FTAA Crumbles

The passage of CAFTA is a serious blow to our movement for global justice. But the vote also seals the fate of the future of NAFTA expansion. If CAFTA, a deal with the tiniest economies in the region and the least economic impact on the US possible, squeaked by with only a razor-thin 2-vote margin, the possibility that the Administration could get a deal approved with economies that would actually impact the US doesn’t pass the laugh test. The Bush dream of a Free Trade Area of the Americas is even farther away than before the CAFTA vote. The “stepping stone to the FTAA” has crumbled under their feet.

Meanwhile, Back at the Ranch

This week, in addition to bribing CAFTA into existence, the Bush Administration has also been negotiating the expansion of NAFTA to Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, and Bolivia through the Andean Free Trade Agreement (AFTA – it, too, rhymes with NAFTA.) AFTA negotiations have stumbled over crucial chapters on agriculture and intellectual property. They have also been difficult to continue amidst the popular overthrow of governments in Ecuador and Bolivia in the midst of negotiations. A recent round of negotiations in Miami this month ended inconclusively. But most governments have been waiting to see if CAFTA was going to be approved by the US Congress. Now that the margin was so razor-thin, negotiators will likely take the hint that “free-trade” agreements under the same model are highly unpopular with the US public.

Day of Reckoning

Now that the fight is over, we pass into the stage of reward and retribution. We can, and must, display the political power to not walk of the playing field now, but to spend the extra effort necessary to back up our elected officials when they fought for us, and punish those who sold out their constituents’ interests by voting them out of office.

This may be difficult during the week when the labor movement has experienced its biggest split in 50 years. It should not go unnoticed that Bush picked the moment when the labor movement, those in the US who will be most clearly affected by CAFTA, was fighting each other as much as fighting against CAFTA, notwithstanding the Herculean efforts of the rank and file – and the AFL’s trade program – to organize hard to against the bill.

Where To Go From Here

There are two main agenda items for the next few days. The first is to call your legislator and reward or punish them for your vote. Let them know about the deep knot in your gut from witnessing the CAFTA defeat, and the emptiness on the tables of many workers that will follow. Check out the link above to find out how your legislator voted, and call the switchboard 866-340-9281 or 877-762-8762 with your response.

But then, we must pick ourselves up, and fight even harder next time. That means the current negotiations on the World Trade Organization, which has a key General Council meeting this week in Geneva, Switzerland. And it means stopping the expansion of NAFTA to the Andes through AFTA.

But most importantly it means getting involved more than we were this time. Bush won because they are fighting to win – whatever it takes, including unethical and undemocratic pork barrel and arm-twisting. Our side fought very, very hard to win, but we lack control of both chambers of the legislative branch, and the executive. (That makes the fight to keep the judiciary balance all the more essential, by the way.) To win on that unlevel playing field, we have to be more strategic, better funded, more organized, and get millions more people involved.

Highly strategic, savvy grassroots organizing was carried out by groups like the Citizens Trade Campaign and Public Citizen, along with key unions, environmental groups, faith communities, solidarity activists, and human rights organizations including Global Exchange. These groups are only as strong as their membership base is active. But they also need your support. So right after you get off the phone with your legislator, be sure to check out the groups listed below, and others that have supported the fight against CAFTA. Become a member, get on their email lists, and make a donation.

That way, we’ll all build a stronger Fair Trade movement, and convert this legislative defeat into a long term opportunity to build a movement that will lead us to true victory against AFTA, the FTAA and the WTO the next time around.

Deborah James is the Global Economy Director at Global Exchange and is reachable at deborah@globalexchange.org.

For more information, to get involved, and to make a contribution:
www.citizen.org/trade
www.citizenstrade.org
www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/cafta
www.stopcafta.org

Large G&T
07-30-2005, 01:23 AM
Free trade - - - Good for America, bad for everyone else...

hooligan
07-30-2005, 01:27 AM
Free trade - - - Good for America, bad for everyone else...

Not necessarily, given that it's moving American manufacturing jobs out of the US.

Large G&T
07-30-2005, 04:54 AM
Not necessarily, given that it's moving American manufacturing jobs out of the US.

You are right; it is moving manufacturing jobs out of the US, but do you know the conditions in which the poor souls work under? Do they get paid minimum wage? Hell no they don't. Do they get benefits? NO. Do these people benefit at all???
A few months ago I watched a documentary on FSTV (Free Speech TV) and they presented a very informative view on the affects of so-called free trade. Free Trade hurts more than it helps. The top 5-10% of those people who already had a little bit of money or capital will become very rich and successful, and the rest will be left the same (or worse off)...There is no middle class, only a few rich, and many poor. This is what the Bush administration is doing. It is getting rid of the all-so-important middle class.
The US is so fuckin dirty to treat the world like shit. But really who am I to preach. I am sitting here at my desk I bought at Wal-Mart, and wearing my bathrobe that was made in China, but it still kills me to think there are men, women (and children) working 12+ hour days and making pennies on the dollar. I hope things change in the future. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don't think the world will put up with the US forever...

PS: If any of you guys have FSTV – watch it!

hooligan
07-30-2005, 02:17 PM
I agree with what you're saying. It's interesting because yeah, I want to buy things cheap too, but in reality the actual economic impact is reinforcing the export of jobs out of the US and supporting many economies that promote non-regulated labor.

nola
08-01-2005, 02:26 AM
Free Speech TV is amazing: www.freespeech.org. Here is one of their videos on free trade and CAFTA: http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/fscm2/videoviewer.php?video_id=1219&search_text=CAFTA&searchmode=&page=0&content_type_id=

A good site and email list for workers' rights and global justice issues is www.jwj.org. From http://www.jwj.org/global/global.htm:

It is clear that domestic struggles for workers’ rights are inextricably linked to international economic activity and the respect for workers’ rights abroad. As Global Corporations increasingly move jobs from the U.S. to developing countries, jobs are consistently degraded in terms of wages, benefits, safety, and job security, impacting workers in the U.S. and abroad.

Massive demonstrations have showcased to the world that corporate-style globalization that ignores the needs of the poor and the environment will no longer be tolerated. The major surprise has been the breadth of the emerging coalition: Union members are joining students, environmentalists, people of faith, human rights activists, and others. Since the fight against NAFTA, JwJ local coalitions have been heavily involved in organizing against a global economy that benefits only the rich. In addition to mobilizing for the April 16, 2000 demonstrations in Washington, DC, JwJ has coordinated local actions around the country to demonstrate that the international struggle against corporate globalization is being fought locally in cities and towns across the U.S.CAFTA's passing made way for the passing of the FTAA which is the mother of all trade agreements or NAFTA times ten: http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/fscm2/contentviewer.php?content_id=625

Yeahman
08-01-2005, 10:13 AM
You are right; it is moving manufacturing jobs out of the US, but do you know the conditions in which the poor souls work under? Do they get paid minimum wage? Hell no they don't. Do they get benefits? NO. Do these people benefit at all???
Absolutely. Stop trying to keep the developing world down.

A few months ago I watched a documentary on FSTV (Free Speech TV) and they presented a very informative view on the affects of so-called free trade. Free Trade hurts more than it helps. The top 5-10% of those people who already had a little bit of money or capital will become very rich and successful, and the rest will be left the same (or worse off)...There is no middle class, only a few rich, and many poor. This is what the Bush administration is doing. It is getting rid of the all-so-important middle class.
That's just factually inaccurate. I can't believe people still fall for that kind of BS.

The US is so fuckin dirty to treat the world like shit. But really who am I to preach. I am sitting here at my desk I bought at Wal-Mart, and wearing my bathrobe that was made in China, but it still kills me to think there are men, women (and children) working 12+ hour days and making pennies on the dollar. I hope things change in the future. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don't think the world will put up with the US forever...
Wal-Mart requires its suppliers to have 8 hour days with 3 hour max of overtime.
Maybe you are wrong? You are wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. Just pick up any economics textbook.

hooligan
08-01-2005, 10:34 AM
Explain why the middle-class in America is shrinking. I believe Large is talking about the low wage workers in foreign countries.

shane
08-01-2005, 10:17 PM
You are right; it is moving manufacturing jobs out of the US, but do you know the conditions in which the poor souls work under? Do they get paid minimum wage? Hell no they don't. Do they get benefits? NO. Do these people benefit at all???

I would prefer a 12-year-old Thai girl be making my shoes for $1 a day than that same girl performing sex acts for $1 a day. Unfortunately, that's the alternative for most of the people working in sweatshops - starvation, prostitution, or crime.

From Matt Yglesias' blog (http://yglesias.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/31/153046/188):

"And it seems to me that what's terrible about it is precisely that there are people in this world with so little income that they aspire simply to move from misery to poverty. The problem, in other words, is that the people who don't have sweatshop jobs are miserable. So miserable, in fact, that the terrible conditions in sweatshops are better than their best other alternative. Closing down the sweatship option would seem to just force everyone to stick with misery, which doesn't sound very appealing."

That sounds exactly right to me. We can't make things magically great overnight, and there are great problems with our unfair trade practices, but overall, globalization and free trade is good for the world.

Large G&T
08-02-2005, 12:12 AM
Wal-Mart requires its suppliers to have 8 hour days with 3 hour max of overtime.
Maybe you are wrong? You are wrong. You couldn't be more wrong. Just pick up any economics textbook.

I didn't know that Wal-Mart policies are in econ. textbooks. And for your information; I was just trying to imply that there are working conditions in Asia and South America that could be improved.
You mention Wal-Mart suppliers - what about the other thousand companies? Do you have stats on all of them as well? Do you not think that working conditions could be improved? You seem to study econ. YOU could be working for Crap-Mart for all I know...

I would prefer a 12-year-old Thai girl be making my shoes for $1 a day than that same girl performing sex acts for $1 a day. Unfortunately, that's the alternative for most of the people working in sweatshops - starvation, prostitution, or crime.


I agree. It's still extremely depressing. Do you see any other positive options?
Yesterday I kept thinking about how much money has been spent on the War in Iraq. If only a fraction of that money went to help women, children, and families in the poorest parts of the world it would change so many lives.

Absolutely. Stop trying to keep the developing world down.



Please - That's the last thing I'd ever want to do.

Yeahman
08-02-2005, 09:42 AM
Please - That's the last thing I'd ever want to do.
Then support free trade so that those in the developing world can lift themselves out of poverty.

hooligan
08-02-2005, 09:48 AM
Then support free trade so that those in the developing world can lift themselves out of poverty.

SOLD! (on rhetoric).