acceptance of generalities

[kasia]

so we have tons of guys posting in here asking why women are like this or like that, and most of those are purely generalizations. why are we so easily put on the defensive when people, especially non-asians, make generalizations about us asians, but we hesitate to question when guys make generalizations about us women?

some guys would say, "well, that's because some of the generalizations we make about women are true." yeah, well, the same sentiment was felt towards stereotypes of minorities in the 60's.

is it because our "revolution" has not yet truly took place?

karl marx said that the reason why the serfs never rebelled against the actual landowners was because they were separated and never given the chance to discuss their status in society and form a "collective consciousness." after industrialization, however, blue-collared workers were able to work together in a noncompetitive environment and to examine their shared positions in society and lack of rights--and it is for this reason that unions formed. (this is a gross simplification, i know.)

this theory, indeed, has been applied to race relations. in the past, blacks, as slaves, were separated in the plantations. it was a strategy of the slaveowners to create slave hierarchies and to reward some blacks for being complacent, even giving these slaves the power to punish other slaves. this pitted them against one another and hindered the formation of collective thought.

the same, i believe, can be applied to the current situation of women. sometimes i really believe that the institution of marriage is what continues this oppression. from the time we are young, we have been socialized to believe that our one goal, really, is to find the right mate. (note: this goal is not as high on a guy's priority list as it is for women.) even when we're not looking for husbands, subconsciously we know that is our goal, and we act in a manner that we think would best please men. our current society--to this day and age--moreover, rewards and punishes women in accordance to whether they are complacent with this system. one obvious example of punishment is the way in which many guys shy away from girls that are feminists. all feminists ask for is equality--and some men treat that as though it is a disease or something. most girls pick up on this and when posed with the question about whether they themselves are feminists--which, in truth, is only asking if they would prefer not to be treated as doormats--they declare that they most definitely are not *or* they say something to the effect of, "i believe in some feminist thought but i'm not a butch." since when did voicing a desire for equal rights make one a homosexual?

we are not at a point where we are equal. the perfect wife, as they describe in the men's forum, is one who's beautiful, has a professional degree, has a great heart, and *cooks and cleans*. i'm not shitting you. go into the men's forum and read for yourselves. why is it that none of us question why *we* should be the ones to cook and clean? why can't they do it themselves? or why can the tasks not be shared? why must we take on their last name? why would women are so willing to relocate for the husband's or boyfriend's jobs but not vice versa? and *why* are we so content with the answer "just because"? why is there a double standard on this board in which girls who sleep around or share their sex lives are called "hoes" or "dirty" (off the board) and the guys who do are just "cool". < -- this is indeed a double standard carried by *many* forum members (i know firsthand) and i urge you to rethink things if you think that the double standard no longer exists. i urge you also to get angry and speak up because this double standard is insulting.

I think it's time we discuss amongst ourselves these issues and not have to worry about what guys will think of us. and it would be great if the guys just left this thread alone for us women to talk and sort things out.

still, I'm skeptical of a true discussion will ever take place here or elsewhere where there are guys within earshot. cause god forbid we get labeled as one of them feminists.

regardless of whether you agree or disagree with me, please feel free to state your thoughts.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 26 2002, 02:45 PM


we are not at a point where we are equal. &nbsp;the perfect wife, as they describe in the men's forum, is one who's beautiful, has a professional degree, has a great heart, and *cooks and cleans*. &nbsp;i'm not shitting you. &nbsp;go into the men's forum and read for yourselves. &nbsp;why is it that none of us question why *we* should be the ones to cook and clean? &nbsp;why can't they do it themselves? &nbsp;or why can the tasks not be shared? &nbsp;why must we take on their last name? &nbsp;why would women are so willing to relocate for the husband's or boyfriend's jobs but not vice versa? &nbsp;and *why* are we so content with the answer "just because"? &nbsp;why is there a double standard on this board in which girls who sleep around or share their sex lives are called "hoes" or "dirty" (off the board) and the guys who do are just "cool". &nbsp;< -- &nbsp;this is indeed a double standard carried by *many* forum members (i know firsthand) and i urge you to rethink things if you think that the double standard no longer exists. &nbsp;i urge you also to get angry and speak up because this double standard is insulting.

I think it's time we discuss amongst ourselves these issues and not have to worry about what guys will think of us. &nbsp;and it would be great if the guys just left this thread alone for us women to talk and sort things out. &nbsp;

still, I'm skeptical of a true discussion will ever take place here or elsewhere where there are guys within earshot. &nbsp;cause god forbid we get labeled as one of them feminists.

regardless of whether you agree or disagree with me, please feel free to state your thoughts.
I don't care about cooking and cleaning. Just look at my current live in scenerio with my girlfriend and possible soon to be fiancee. Nobody cooks and we clean whenever one of us has time. Beautiful and a good heart is good enuff for me.

As for the last name I have no problems with her keeping her Korean last name for the sake of having her own identity, the choice is hers whether she wants to adopt my last name or keep hers.

Being a fulltime professional and a housewife has never been one of my prerequisites. Just look back at all my posts in the men's section about the ideal mate.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?ac...d39223506a51e48 (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=2319&s=779da4eb02d890ae9d39223506a51e48)

- lose the attitude a little
- lose the "hey, I'm an Asian woman. I'm the hottest trend right now, put me on a pedastal." I've dated some with that complex.
- lose that chip on your shoulder (I really don't care who did what to ya in the past and don't take that shit out on me!)
- lose the anime-like cutesy voice. I know you're trying to be cute. But, it gets on my nerves.
- equal or somewhat equal education level
- able to tolerate me not being home for periods of time, applies to work and play.
- ability to hold her own, if something happens to me (ie death).
- not latchy
- independent has a life of her own, outside of the marriage
- no extreme views
- not religious


As to her being Chinese or not, I don't care at this point.
Virgin or not, not an issue with me
Preferably, no baggage i.e. kids and large amount of debt.
Cooking and cleaning not a requirement

That's about all I can think of, right now.


Like I said time and time again, so long as we are compatible and she is happy in what she decides to do and we all put in our fair share, it's all good.


As for a woman's sexual history. I've stated time and time again on YW and in real life amongst my friends that it's not a big deal to me. Who am I to judge, given my past history with women?

I don't see why you can't be it real amongst yourselves. I for one encourage you to do so. I have no problems with feminism. My only gripe is that feminists tend to develop tunnel vision and become provincial in their views that all us men gets lumped into one group. That's my only gripe.

Edit: sorry to intrude.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Oct 28 2002, 11:04 AM-->

[artsfartsyjanet]

I'd like to know how someone would justify how a double standard does not exist because, quite frankly, I see and hear it everywhere. One of the most apparent examples is the influence the media can have on young girls and women in general. I walk into a Borders Bookstore and head straight to the magazine section. After walking and browsing through the categories (Travel, Culture, yahta), I noticed the "Men's Interest" section, and behold, I find more than 75% of the magazines have provocative women on the cover in the same old theme, either with their arms around their breasts, very thin and tall stature, and mostly Caucasian/white. I go through the Women's magazines, and of course, 99.9% of the covers have a female on the cover (unless their boyfriends/husbands) are on the cover with them. What I find common in Maxim and Cosmopolitan is a few crucial commonalities. They both have primarily provocative pictures of women in them, and the way women are viewed in the content of the articles are almost the same. The only exception is that Maxim teaches a man how to repair certain parts of their car or appliances around the house, make a noose, yes a noose, and other articles tell the predominant male audience how to score points with his "lady". The sexual revolution may encourage women to do what they want with their bodies, but to do what they want unknowingly ACCORDING to what the male's standard is, leads me to question how independent women really are with the choices a lot of women THINK they're making. Back to the magazine ads, the women in these pages represent less than 10% of world's population, and yet, young girls want to be like them. In no way am I stating that the media CAUSES eating disorders, CAUSES depression, CAUSES low self-esteem, but I think a combination of these ads, strict gender roles, what young girls and women hear from other men and from their peers, and what not ALL relate to the double edged sword women feel as they grow up. This double edged sword is a culmination of conflicts a lot of women feel when they grow up. "A good girl does well in school and does her chores at home. A good mother is a great mother if her husband and children get a lot of attention as well as do well at work." The blame is on women if a few flaws exist in the presentation of her home or family, in the presentation of her body. Women are always smiling in their photos, whereas the men, hardly smile. When women don't smile, they're either portrayed as the seductress or the "ugly/feminist/evil/unpopular" character that no one seems to like. Of course, my blurb isn't to say that the vocation of marriage should not take place between men and women because, quite frankly, marriage is a beautiful union between two people who mutually love each other, but how representative do you feel when you look at any magazine or form of media out there? How independent do you think you are? Do you feel the pressure of being at the mercy of a male to survive or to raise your status in society?



<!--EDIT|artsfartsyjanet|Oct 28 2002, 11:29 AM-->

[SunWuKong]

i hope i didn't cause this rant with some of my postings in here. some of them are really just half-hearted attempts at humor based on certain amounts of truth.

but kasie, let us know when the men are allowed to contribute. :)

[ChinaLama]

Ok, gonna go against kasia's expressed wish but hopefully in the same spirit:

If anything, I tend to think most women too easily call themselves "feminists" but don't really go ALL the way. what my major problem is when people say things like "I'm a feminist until it comes to money." Also, while a lot of women read feminist thought and can spew all the MacKinnon (spelling?) and Cornell they want, they don't seem to LIVE it in their everyday lives. Part of me is also very feministy-- i'm not against equality but i want equality with the advantages AND the perceived disadvantages.

[Grass Monkey]

Yeah, everyone looks for a beautiful and good-hearted wife. (The priorities switch, depending on the person.) Dunno about professional degree, cooking, or cleaning.
Hell, cooking and cleaning would probably be no problem. I store every damn thing away like a squirrel(Yes, LIKE a squirrel, including the open-closet-door-and-cause-an-avalanche skill), and I'd probably be the cook, if she didn't mind cajun food every night :D

She probably would though. That cajun stuff can do a number on you. But it's all I've learned/ was willing to learn to cook. So I guess her knowing some cuisine is insurance, eh?

Mmm... gumbo..

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 28 2002, 07:49 PM
i hope i didn't cause this rant with some of my postings in here. some of them are really just half-hearted attempts at humor based on certain amounts of truth.

but kasie, let us know when the men are allowed to contribute. :)
sure, contribute. csb seemed to have good stuff to the convo and he's a guy :)

and no, it wasn't just your threads that started this. i personally took no offense to your posts. still, i thought it would be nice to talk about feminism and such with the other ladies on the board.

[kasia]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 28 2002, 09:07 PM
Ok, gonna go against kasia's expressed wish but hopefully in the same spirit:

If anything, I tend to think most women too easily call themselves "feminists" but don't really go ALL the way. what my major problem is when people say things like "I'm a feminist until it comes to money." Also, while a lot of women read feminist thought and can spew all the MacKinnon (spelling?) and Cornell they want, they don't seem to LIVE it in their everyday lives. Part of me is also very feministy-- i'm not against equality but i want equality with the advantages AND the perceived disadvantages.
of course, of course. and guys can be feminists, too, no?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 26 2002, 02:45 PM
we are not at a point where we are equal. the perfect wife, as they describe in the men's forum, is one who's beautiful, has a professional degree, has a great heart, and *cooks and cleans*. i'm not shitting you. go into the men's forum and read for yourselves. why is it that none of us question why *we* should be the ones to cook and clean? why can't they do it themselves? or why can the tasks not be shared? why must we take on their last name? why would women are so willing to relocate for the husband's or boyfriend's jobs but not vice versa? and *why* are we so content with the answer "just because"? why is there a double standard on this board in which girls who sleep around or share their sex lives are called "hoes" or "dirty" (off the board) and the guys who do are just "cool". < -- this is indeed a double standard carried by *many* forum members (i know firsthand) and i urge you to rethink things if you think that the double standard no longer exists. i urge you also to get angry and speak up because this double standard is insulting.
firstly, i want to say that you may be making generalisations yourself if you think that all or most men want what you've described they want.

why do you talk as if "cooking and cleaning" is something that is inferior or disrespected? while i'm sure there are guys that equate having a housewife to having a complacent and submissive wife, i can assure you that there are many other guys that respect housewives for what they do. i have aunties that command households of 4 or more kids, and in my opinion, their roles were entirely more important and more difficult than that of their husbands. does a husband-wife pair who have complimentary roles of career-husband and housewife somehow not have equality? and if you think not, then well, why not? what about women who think that the perfect husband would be someone who has plenty of money, or at least, a good sized income? there is a matter of realistic consideration. if a family ends up having 2 or more children, either the husband or the wife will have to stay home to take care of the household. thinking that the responsibilities can be shared between both the husband and wife would be naive - are both of them going to have part-time jobs when they need to feed a family of 4 or more? in a situation like that, how many women would want a househusband? and if not many women want a househusband, then wouldn't it be a double standard that they also don't want to be housewives?

but anyway, as far as the other points go, i pretty much agree with you.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 28 2002, 11:13 AM
I'd like to know how someone would justify how a double standard does not exist because, quite frankly, I see and hear it everywhere. &nbsp;One of the most apparent examples is the influence the media can have on young girls and women in general. &nbsp;I walk into a Borders Bookstore and head straight to the magazine section. &nbsp;After walking and browsing through the categories (Travel, Culture, yahta), I noticed the "Men's Interest" section, and behold, I find more than 75% of the magazines have provocative women on the cover in the same old theme, either with their arms around their breasts, very thin and tall stature, and mostly Caucasian/white. &nbsp;I go through the Women's magazines, and of course, 99.9% of the covers have a female on the cover (unless their boyfriends/husbands) are on the cover with them. &nbsp;What I find common in Maxim and Cosmopolitan is a few crucial commonalities. &nbsp;They both have primarily provocative pictures of women in them, and the way women are viewed in the content of the articles are almost the same. &nbsp;The only exception is that Maxim teaches a man how to repair certain parts of their car or appliances around the house, make a noose, yes a noose, and other articles tell the predominant male audience how to score points with his "lady". The sexual revolution may encourage women to do what they want with their bodies, but to do what they want unknowingly ACCORDING to what the male's standard is, leads me to question how independent women really are with the choices a lot of women THINK they're making. &nbsp;Back to the magazine ads, the women in these pages represent less than 10% of world's population, and yet, young girls want to be like them. &nbsp;In no way am I stating that the media CAUSES eating disorders, CAUSES depression, CAUSES low self-esteem, but I think a combination of these ads, strict gender roles, what young girls and women hear from other men and from their peers, and what not ALL relate to the double edged sword women feel as they grow up. &nbsp; This double edged sword is a culmination of conflicts a lot of women feel when they grow up. &nbsp;"A good girl does well in school and does her chores at home. &nbsp;A good mother is a great mother if her husband and children get a lot of attention as well as do well at work." &nbsp;The blame is on women if a few flaws exist in the presentation of her home or family, in the presentation of her body. &nbsp;Women are always smiling in their photos, whereas the men, hardly smile. &nbsp;When women don't smile, they're either portrayed as the seductress or the "ugly/feminist/evil/unpopular" character that no one seems to like. &nbsp; Of course, my blurb isn't to say that the vocation of marriage should not take place between men and women because, quite frankly, marriage is a beautiful union between two people who mutually love each other, but how representative do you feel when you look at any magazine or form of media out there? &nbsp;How independent do you think you are? &nbsp;Do you feel the pressure of being at the mercy of a male to survive or to raise your status in society?
you know, i often ask myself why the hell do women's magazines have women on the covers instead of men. who are in charge of these magazines anyway? i mean i would think that if magazines like Cosmos had nice looking men on their covers, they would sell more copies than if they had nice looking women on their covers. last time i checked, these magazines are read mostly by women, wouldn't nice looking men on the covers sell more copies than nice looking women on the covers?

now, i'm certain that media portrayal affects women's opinions of themselves alot more than men's opinions of themselves, but let it be known that media portrayal affects men's self-esteem, too. you can ask the men around here and i'm sure that when they look at their bodies, they're comparing them to those of men in popular media that make alot of money on their looks alone. there're a couple of threads about whether or not asian men are sexy. well you know, purely physically speaking, i don't think i'm sexy not because i'm asian. i don't think i'm sexy because i look at myself in the mirror and i don't see a six-pack on my stomach and i don't see clearly outlined pectoral muscles. yeah, women in general are alot more insecure about their looks, but it's not the 50s anymore, a guy can't get a date just because he's got a good job and he's a nice guy. he's got to look good, too.

and about smiling in photos. while you may be right that if women don't smile, they're portrayed as seductresses or "ugly", it's just the same opposingly for guys. if they smile, then they're portrayed as less masculine. why do you think so many guys don't smile when pictures of them are taken?



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Oct 29 2002, 11:45 AM-->

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 29 2002, 03:22 PM
firstly, i want to say that you may be making generalisations yourself if you think that all or most men want what you've described they want.
is it merely a generalization though?

also, i'm not undermining the work of a housewife. i'm just questioning why it tends to be seen as a woman's job and that of a man.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 09:28 PM

i'm just questioning why it tends to be seen as a woman's job and that of a man.
It's not. My place is a mess. Her stuff is everywhere, hell I put away her stuff more than she does. Just cuz I can't find my stuff buried under her stuff, I had to page myself 4 times this morning at 5am cuz I couldn't find my pager. It was buried under her clothes all over the floor. But it's all good, we both live a hectic lifestyle.

And besides we all know that's what having kids are for :D . Sheeeit, I'm fuxored, I don't want kids.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 29 2002, 10:43 AM
and about smiling in photos. &nbsp;while you may be right that if women don't smile, they're portrayed as seductresses or "ugly", it's just the same opposingly for guys. &nbsp;if they smile, then they're portrayed as less masculine. &nbsp;why do you think so many guys don't smile when pictures of them are taken?
I actually know that a lot of men don't smile because it makes them "sissified" in the eyes of other men. I, on the other hand, find it positive if a guy smiles, and I don't question their sexuality in the way that perhaps a lot of men might. Of course, there's this double bind for men too. I totally agree with you. I'm sure there is some researcher out there who can tell you per capita how much money is spent on magazines with predominantly women in them versus magazines with predominantly men (if that exists) in them.... and surprise surprise. I think women buy more magazines with women in them b/c a lot of women like to buy magazines that gear toward women and what they look like and wear. That's a bit of redundancy on the usage of "women" i know. I'm tired.... sorry. Anyway, it's Just a hunch. Men buy magazines with a lot of women just to look at them. I don't think a lot of men want to look at other men although I'm sure there are people self-conscious of their body image compared to the men in the ads.

[kimpossible]

But what if as a woman I expect stereotypical things out of my husband? He has to drudge through work no matter what. I expect him to provide for the family. I expect him to be strong and do some man stuff like take out the garbage, kills spiders for me, mow the lawn.

Sure we switch some stuff up a bit. He'll probably retire at 40 and I'll work fulltime. He does help out with some housework and he's a very... wakate kureru hito... he gives me a lot of understanding. I'd like to think we divide things up rather than just mechanically fullfill gender roles. Let's also not forget that, at least in my case, I had his parents to please as well as my husband. They are a lot more demanding about me being the perfect wife than he is. They expect him to be treated in a certain manner. Their judgment is a thousand times more stringent than his is regarding who should do housework, how it should be done and what it takes for me to be considered a good wife.

Maybe this is screwed up but many of my father in law's Chinese fob colleagues have asked to arrange meetings between my sister and their sons in hope of marriage based on what they have known of me over the last 8 years. This gives my family face and honestly I'm not ashamed of it.

However, my main points are:

1) I expect him to do things based on his gender. Things that suck just as much as housework or more.

2) A guy's parents' expectations of a daughter-in-law can be harsher than the guy's expectations of his wife.

edited to clean up glaring grammar issues. eating dinner while posting.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 30 2002, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 09:28 PM

i'm just questioning why it tends to be seen as a woman's job and that of a man.
It's not. My place is a mess. Her stuff is everywhere, hell I put away her stuff more than she does. Just cuz I can't find my stuff buried under her stuff, I had to page myself 4 times this morning at 5am cuz I couldn't find my pager. It was buried under her clothes all over the floor. But it's all good, we both live a hectic lifestyle.

And besides we all know that's what having kids are for :D . Sheeeit, I'm fuxored, I don't want kids.
what if you're both doctors and she gets pregnant. will you be willing to take paternity leave if she would rather go to work than stay home and babysit?

[kasia]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 30 2002, 03:25 AM
But what if as a woman I expect stereotypical things out of my husband? He has to drudge through work no matter what. I expect him to provide for the family. I expect him to be strong and do some man stuff like take out the garbage, kills spiders for me, mow the lawn.

Sure we switch some stuff up a bit. He'll probably retire at 40 and I'll work fulltime. He does help out with some housework and he's a very... wakate kureru hito... he gives me a lot of understanding. I'd like to think we divide things up rather than just mechanically fullfill gender roles. Let's also not forget that, at least in my case, I had his parents to please as well as my husband. They are a lot more demanding about me being the perfect wife than he is. They expect him to be treated in a certain manner. They're judgment is a thousand times more stringent than his is regarding who should do housework, how it should be done and what it takes for me to be considered a good wife.

Maybe this is screwed up but many of my father in law's Chinese fob colleagues have asked to arrange meetings between my sister and their sons in hope of marriage based on what they known of me over the last 8 years. This gives my family face and honestly I'm not ashamed of it.

However, my main points are:

1) I expect him to do things based on his gender. Things that suck just as much as housework or more.

2) A guy's parents' expectations of a daughter-in-law can be harsher than the guy's expectations of his wife.
this is my response and it's only my opinion...

i used to be the same way with my ex-bf. during the four years we were together, i'd stay with him and his family, played the studious college student studying for law school and also the dutiful and *happy* "daughter-in-law" at the same time. his parents loved me, their friends loved me, and, of course, i loved being loved. it feels good doing the "right thing", you know? being the "perfect chinese girl"...

but now i think...if i hadn't been that way--following all of the chinese traditions, being a part of the household, being completely unopinionated around their friends--would they have liked me just as much? i'm sure *he* would have, but i'm not so sure about his family.

so i think, in a sense, it's like coercive love. "we'll love you if you play your part as a woman." and i'm sure it's not just the men in his family that felt that way but also the women. the women don't want to disturb the tradition either.

in response to your expectations of your husband, could it be that it is just more simple living this way? in other words, are you just more comfortable not challenging the status quo? cause i sure as hell know i would be more comfortable playing my old role. but it's like...after seeing how things *could* be different, how they could be more equal--it's hard to just go back without questioning why i should.

would your husband take your last name? would he allow your kids to? why or why not?

[kimpossible]

it feels good doing the "right thing", you know? &nbsp;being the "perfect chinese girl"...


Hey, don't forget to add in that extra heaping helping of overcompensation I got going on too. :D Lesse, not Chinese and only mixed Asian.

in other words, are you just more comfortable not challenging the status quo?

Oh hell yeah. I'd put Johnny in that category too.

&nbsp;but it's like...after seeing how things *could* be different, how they could be more equal--it's hard to just go back without questioning why i should.

This is what I don't understand because I really do feel that Johnny and I are equals in *our* relationship. How his parents or ppl on the outside see it is radically different. We're crowdpleasers and have no qualms about putting on a really traditional face to keep the old folks off our back. He's the only child. No one else is available to share the blame for anything.

would your husband take your last name? &nbsp;would he allow your kids to? &nbsp;why or why not?

He wouldn't take mine. He wouldn't care if I took his last name or not. From what I understand a lot of Chinese women don't. His mom still uses her maiden name a lot. He told me this is common for Chinese women. I changed my name for reasons like insurance. Many, many important financial, medical or insurance institutions will not recognize that we are a married couple unless we have the same last name. It's the institutional perception that Asian men don't have non-Asian wives - I originally kept my maiden name until we ran into problem after problem. As for kids, I don't think he would care as long as they have multiple names, both Chinese and English, so they can function in Taiwan as well as the states. Again, if they didn't have their father's last name, we would most likely run into med and insurance problems. But he wouldn't care about them having my last name in the U.S. .


I hope you feel totally relaxed questioning my thinking kasie, it's not like I'm going to get mad at you. I don't even understand the way I think sometimes.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Actually, I'm a "rebel" to my family because they "think" I'm rejecting the culture as a whole because I decided to become Christian, I ALMOST married a white guy, and other factors out of my control (e.g. language barrier and cultural/generational gaps). I thought about not taking my then fiance's last name and keep my own or somehow combining the two names. I see the institutional barriers that make it difficult for that to happen, but i think that's institutional sexism. Sure, it's tradition, and I respect people who would change their names into the husband's last name, but it's such a double standard when it becomes more difficult for women to keep their own maiden name (that is, free from hindrances like insurance companies and what not).

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 30 2002, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 09:28 PM

i'm just questioning why it tends to be seen as a woman's job and that of a man.
It's not. My place is a mess. Her stuff is everywhere, hell I put away her stuff more than she does. Just cuz I can't find my stuff buried under her stuff, I had to page myself 4 times this morning at 5am cuz I couldn't find my pager. It was buried under her clothes all over the floor. But it's all good, we both live a hectic lifestyle.

And besides we all know that's what having kids are for :D . Sheeeit, I'm fuxored, I don't want kids.
what if you're both doctors and she gets pregnant. will you be willing to take paternity leave if she would rather go to work than stay home and babysit?
Well she's not a doctor. She works for Vogue and is always travelling and as of now kids aren't in the future.

But if we do have kids, I have no problems taking time off, by then these sucky hours would be over. I'll be a practicing surgeon that can pick and choose my patients I'm not at the mercy of anyone, in other words better autonomy. The hours for a surgical oncologists is pretty reasonable since surgery is basically and generally the last line of defense for treating tumors if it's not treated corrected via chemo or radiation therapy, then we go the surgery route.

So yeah I have no problems taking leave. It'll be like a vacation after doing my 5 years + 2 years specialization. :D

[SunWuKong]

regarding a wife taking the husband's last name in chinese culture. to the best of my knowledge, she doesn't actually change her name, however, in formal address, she would be known as Mrs. Whatever. it's not the case where if i married Wong Fei, she becomes Sun Fei. she'd still be called Wong Fei, except she'd also be called Mrs. Sun.

but, the basic idea of taking the husband's last name is still there.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 30 2002, 03:25 AM
But what if as a woman I expect stereotypical things out of my husband? He has to drudge through work no matter what. I expect him to provide for the family. I expect him to be strong and do some man stuff like take out the garbage, kills spiders for me, mow the lawn.

Sure we switch some stuff up a bit. He'll probably retire at 40 and I'll work fulltime. He does help out with some housework and he's a very... wakate kureru hito... he gives me a lot of understanding. I'd like to think we divide things up rather than just mechanically fullfill gender roles. Let's also not forget that, at least in my case, I had his parents to please as well as my husband. They are a lot more demanding about me being the perfect wife than he is. They expect him to be treated in a certain manner. They're judgment is a thousand times more stringent than his is regarding who should do housework, how it should be done and what it takes for me to be considered a good wife.

Maybe this is screwed up but many of my father in law's Chinese fob colleagues have asked to arrange meetings between my sister and their sons in hope of marriage based on what they known of me over the last 8 years. This gives my family face and honestly I'm not ashamed of it.

However, my main points are:

1) I expect him to do things based on his gender. Things that suck just as much as housework or more.

2) A guy's parents' expectations of a daughter-in-law can be harsher than the guy's expectations of his wife.
this is my response and it's only my opinion...

i used to be the same way with my ex-bf. during the four years we were together, i'd stay with him and his family, played the studious college student studying for law school and also the dutiful and *happy* "daughter-in-law" at the same time. his parents loved me, their friends loved me, and, of course, i loved being loved. it feels good doing the "right thing", you know? being the "perfect chinese girl"...

but now i think...if i hadn't been that way--following all of the chinese traditions, being a part of the household, being completely unopinionated around their friends--would they have liked me just as much? i'm sure *he* would have, but i'm not so sure about his family.

so i think, in a sense, it's like coercive love. "we'll love you if you play your part as a woman." and i'm sure it's not just the men in his family that felt that way but also the women. the women don't want to disturb the tradition either.

in response to your expectations of your husband, could it be that it is just more simple living this way? in other words, are you just more comfortable not challenging the status quo? cause i sure as hell know i would be more comfortable playing my old role. but it's like...after seeing how things *could* be different, how they could be more equal--it's hard to just go back without questioning why i should.

would your husband take your last name? would he allow your kids to? why or why not?
and did your ex-bf act differently to please your parents? because in my relationships, i've found that we both tried to please each others' parents and friends (if we don't know them so well). i mean, guys try to be "the perfect chinese boy" in front of their girlfriend's parents, too. but i never felt that it was coersive at all. i always just felt that i should do that out of respect for them.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 30 2002, 11:18 AM
regarding a wife taking the husband's last name in chinese culture. to the best of my knowledge, she doesn't actually change her name, however, in formal address, she would be known as Mrs. Whatever. it's not the case where if i married Wong Fei, she becomes Sun Fei. she'd still be called Wong Fei, except she'd also be called Mrs. Sun.

but, the basic idea of taking the husband's last name is still there.
Yup that's why my momma is still has her maiden name and original Chinese name. But is referred to as Chen tai-tai.

**shivers** conflicting images of HH as Chen tai tai and my mom as Chen tai tai. Must leave now.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 30 2002, 04:48 AM
but it's like...after seeing how things *could* be different, how they could be more equal--it's hard to just go back without questioning why i should.

This is what I don't understand because I really do feel that Johnny and I are equals in *our* relationship. How his parents or ppl on the outside see it is radically different. We're crowdpleasers and have no qualms about putting on a really traditional face to keep the old folks off our back. He's the only child. No one else is available to share the blame for anything.

would your husband take your last name? would he allow your kids to? why or why not?

He wouldn't take mine. He wouldn't care if I took his last name or not. From what I understand a lot of Chinese women don't. His mom still uses her maiden name a lot. He told me this is common for Chinese women. I changed my name for reasons like insurance. Many, many important financial, medical or insurance institutions will not recognize that we are a married couple unless we have the same last name. It's the institutional perception that Asian men don't have non-Asian wives - I originally kept my maiden name until we ran into problem after problem. As for kids, I don't think he would care as long as they have multiple names, both Chinese and English, so they can function in Taiwan as well as the states. Again, if they didn't have their father's last name, we would most likely run into med and insurance problems. But he wouldn't care about them having my last name in the U.S. .

I hope you feel totally relaxed questioning my thinking kasie, it's not like I'm going to get mad at you. I don't even understand the way I think sometimes.
thanks for your input. i'm not really challenging anyone's lifestyle or beliefs; i just want to put this matter out there for us to talk about.

re: you and your husband being equals. it could very well be that you are. after all, you are the best judge on this issue.

re: changing last names. i'm just curious as to why men can't take *women's* last names....as opposed to us being "allowed" to keep ours. i understand that the most rational answer now would be that it is more *practical* to take on his last name and for the kids to do the same. but the reason this is more practical stems from a male heirarchy in the past--a heirachy which i would argue is still existent.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 30 2002, 12:38 PM
So yeah I have no problems taking leave. It'll be like a vacation after doing my 5 years + 2 years specialization. :D
see, i think that's great.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 30 2002, 04:24 PM
and did your ex-bf act differently to please your parents? because in my relationships, i've found that we both tried to please each others' parents and friends (if we don't know them so well). i mean, guys try to be "the perfect chinese boy" in front of their girlfriend's parents, too. but i never felt that it was coersive at all. i always just felt that i should do that out of respect for them.
yes, he did act differently. he didn't stay over at my place very often--i always stayed at his--and i hated it. i mean, at first i liked it because i felt like i was a daughter-in-law--leaving my family to become a part of his. but after a while, i was thinking, 'this sucks. i want to hang out with *my* family.' things did change after a while. i stopped going to his place and he was forced to hang out with my family most of the time. it would have been nice if we started off spending an equal amount of time with both of our families--but we didn't. so in the end, i was reacting to how things began.

his being the 'perfect chinese boy' entailed him doing well in school, having a bright future, being attractive (yeh, my mom seems to care), speaking chinese, being family-oriented, etc. on the other hand, for me to be the 'perfect chinese girl', i had to be agreeable, be willing to learn how to cook (*his* mom cared and would tease me because i really didn't like cooking at the time), clean, etc. the fact that i was in college was a plus, but wasn't necessary. his current gf isn't in school, but she helps out at the family business, takes care of his parents, runs errands for them--and that's sufficient--it's not a big deal whether or not she has career goals, etc.

i don't know if i'm making sense--i'm just trying to say that the roles are different and i don't understand why they should be.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by kasia@Nov 2 2002, 03:35 AM

re: changing last names. i'm just curious as to why men can't take *women's* last names....as opposed to us being "allowed" to keep ours. i understand that the most rational answer now would be that it is more *practical* to take on his last name and for the kids to do the same. but the reason this is more practical stems from a male heirarchy in the past--a heirachy which i would argue is still existent.
For me...I'm just an arrogant fug. I can't bear taking someone else's name.

But now you're gonna make me feel guilty when i have kids like 10 yrs fr now. gonna think, "wait, i shouldn't automatically have my kid in my surname...all cuz of what a kasie lee said 10 years ago..." :rolleyes:

my uncle's solution to this dilemma is to have everyone marry someone w/ the same last name. so the ensuing generations may reflect patriarchal roots, but at least the patriarchy itself won't be actively continued (since taking a woman's surname would ultimately stem back to her father, the only way to REALLY revamp it would be for everyone to create surnames anew).

[deez nuts]

If my future wife doesn't wanna take my last name it's fine with me. But at the same time, I'm not taking up her last name, forget that, why to show how liberal minded I am? There's no benefits for me adapting her last name.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Why can't we and our hypothetical children all just have different last names? Sheesh. :blink: B)

[kasia]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Nov 2 2002, 04:22 PM
If my future wife doesn't wanna take my last name it's fine with me. But at the same time, I'm not taking up her last name, forget that, why to show how liberal minded I am? There's no benefits for me adapting her last name.
as a remedial measure. :) like affirmative action.

[Arb Nam]

We all act, some more than others, to put on a more palatable front for others. The point is, you did it for your ex-bf because you loved him. It just makes a relationship that much smoother. God knows relationship is hard enough as it is without throwing in each other's family.

I never got the equality part of the relationship where everything is split right down the middle - what is this? math? We are more than the sum of our parts. Give and take I'd say, live and let live. When we nit pick on the details; the devil is always in the details; we all lose.

[lethal]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Nov 2 2002, 01:34 AM
[my uncle's solution to this dilemma is to have everyone marry someone w/ the same last name. so the ensuing generations may reflect patriarchal roots, but at least the patriarchy itself won't be actively continued (since taking a woman's surname would ultimately stem back to her father, the only way to REALLY revamp it would be for everyone to create surnames anew).
My parents did that. They both have the same last name, so there was no confusion when they came to the States. Vietnamese women generally don't change their surnames when they get married, at least in Vietnam, I have no idea about in America. Also, people are addressed by a title and then their first name, so there's still no confusion.

I guess in a culture where almost 1/2 of the population has 3 or 4 surnames, its not too difficult to find a mate with the same last name.

As for me, I don't care either way if my wife takes my name or not. Its really her choice. My choice would be to keep my name, if I needed to make that decision.

One of my classmmate's brother-in-law changed his last name when he got married because he married a Swedish woman and moved to Sweden, so he figured it'd be easier for people there. Apparantly it was extremely difficult because all his educational documents were in his pre-married name and no one there believed that he took his wife's name.

[AddictProne]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 29 2002, 07:34 PM
what if you're both doctors and she gets pregnant. &nbsp;will you be willing to take paternity leave if she would rather go to work than stay home and babysit?
i would. she would have to be earning more than I would because otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

I'd also let my kids have my wife's surname but only if I had full control of the middle name.

in regards to roles and role placement, I'm not sure what that all means exactly. Are you talking about how women are supposed to do one thing and men are supposed to do another?

I need some clarification because nobody ever *HAS* to do anything they don't feel like doing. Don't want to take care of the house and are a woman? Who the fuck cares?

The only problem that I see is, disappointing people you want to be proud of you (such as your in laws, even your parents). But the only thing I can really say to that is that eventually you have to live your life the way you want to and fuck everyone else's expectations and desires. I know this may be a problem for some asians because of the strict family life and the dedication to elders and shit but maybe those people should be a bit less stubborn.

How do they get less stubborn? By dealing with and accepting things, crazy things that you've done. It's the only way. It's the only way anything regarding roles really gets changed. For all the petitioning and soap boxing, the only way is to just exist and be in people's faces until they eventually get so tired of being angry at you that they just accept it. Of course if you are confrontationally in people's faces that may causes different problems all together, which is why I don't like certain types of reactionary activism.

Of course some people won't change, but that's life and you just gotta deal and accept those people too.

I wish this post was shorter.

and who cares what their kids last names are any way?? I mean, it's not like it's all that important any way.

[mydnyht]

Wow. Kinda reminds me how when I was reading about the binge-drinking episode... that girl had every single right to do that to him. In addition to being worried sick, who knows what would have happened if he'd gotten drunk really bad? Accident? Beating? Binge drinking is NOT good, even if you are legal. It can result in death.... and all the guys kept saying that she was being overreacting and whatever.

[Jenny]

I think the reason Asian women are more accepting of generalizations about women than about their heritage is because it's the safety in numbers. Female stereotypes aren't as offensive because we know that it's not only Asian women that have to deal with that, but Hispanic women, African-American women, Caucasian women... But when it's about our ethnicity, the only ones that know how we feel are fellow Asians and it feels like more of a direct attack than if someone were to say "women are so bitchy sometimes." I dunno if any of that made sense but it makes sense in my head. :P

[kasia]

Originally posted by Jenny@Dec 13 2002, 08:41 PM
I think the reason Asian women are more accepting of generalizations about women than about their heritage is because it's the safety in numbers. Female stereotypes aren't as offensive because we know that it's not only Asian women that have to deal with that, but Hispanic women, African-American women, Caucasian women... But when it's about our ethnicity, the only ones that know how we feel are fellow Asians and it feels like more of a direct attack than if someone were to say "women are so bitchy sometimes." I dunno if any of that made sense but it makes sense in my head. :P
that makes sense to me. maybe it's because you identify more with their ethnicity/race than your gender?