Studying in Australia?

[Sebro]

Have you studied or do you know someone who has studied in Australia? I'd just like to know what Asian students think of Australia as a destination for continuing their studies. If you have studied here, I'd like to hear of some of your experiences in the land of Oz. Feel free to comment on whatever you want about Australia aswell, except on our stupid Immigration Department that deports its own citizens (yes, it does, can you believe it?)

I'm just curious as I'll be helping out with some new international students when they arrive here in July for the mid-year intake and I'd like to hear from some students, particularly Asian ones, about their experiences in Australia and perception of Australia by Asians (in other words, what they are expecting before they come here)

Thanks

[kimpossible]

Do you mean students from America or do you mean Asian (as in from Asia) students? Because while most of the students here are ethnically Asian, polling them for info on the expectation of from-Asian students might not get you the results you're looking for.

What will they study?

[nola]

I know two people who did. My uncles who are now Chinese-Canadian and -Swiss did and back then said it was very racist. Kudos on womens' equality there though. You're lucky to live in Melbourne.

[Sebro]

Do you mean students from America or do you mean Asian (as in from Asia) students? Because while most of the students here are ethnically Asian, polling them for info on the expectation of from-Asian students might not get you the results you're looking for.

What will they study?

Thanks for getting back to me. I am mainly looking for what students from Asia think about/expect from Australia. I haven't really used this site long so I wasn't too sure where most people were from.

I'd welcome comments from anyone though, you don't have to be an Asian student from Asia (as in you grew up there).

To answer your question I think most of them will be studying Commerce, but not all of them though, there are a few Asian students in my course (International Relations). I'm basing this on the fact that most Asian students at my uni study Commerce.

I know two people who did. My uncles who are now Chinese-Canadian and -Swiss did and back then said it was very racist. Kudos on womens' equality there though. You're lucky to live in Melbourne.

Thanks for getting back to me. Where & when did your uncles study here? Australia can be a bit of redneck wonderland at times I admit, but I think it's getting better (slowly). It also depends on where you are aswell, country areas and Queensland are where the majority of bigotted opinions seem to come from if talkback radio is anything to go by.

[nola]

They came from HK and it must have been the 60s for college.

[bulldog]

Anti asian attitude in australia and new zealand is still very high compared to north america.
Why study overseas when asians have their own schools. Most of them only want to migrate out or something by doing mini english courses while looking for husband or wife.

[moJo]

one of my roommates moved from HK to Aus when she was 13, so she was there for HS and university. she studied Commerce. then she left after graduation because she got a job here (the U.S.) in the Actuary field. she likes the U.S. better than Aus, and likes HK better than Aus.

[Sebro]

one of my roommates moved from HK to Aus when she was 13, so she was there for HS and university. she studied Commerce. then she left after graduation because she got a job here (the U.S.) in the Actuary field. she likes the U.S. better than Aus, and likes HK better than Aus.

I'll try and not be offended by that. I'm not looking for Aussie bashing, I'm looking some constructive comments about how I could help make an Asians students transiton to living and studying in Australia better. I do welcome constructive criticism about my country but this post doesn't really help. I'll be the first to admit there is a fair bit of anti-Asian sentiment here, from what I hear it's much the same as the anti-Mexican sentiment in the U.S. I personally think this phobia of Asia and Asians on behalf of SOME (not all) Australians is stupid and ill-founded but you've got to remember we're a small, predominately white sparely populated nation on the edge of Asia, I think that's where this anti-Asian sentiment comes from. In short, it's a result of some peoples own insecurities.

Anyway, could you please tell me what it was she didn't like about Australia? That would be helpful.

Thanks

btw - I knew a Japanese student who studied in the U.S. for a few years and came to Australia and much prefered it here. I guess it's up to personal preference.

[kimpossible]

I don't think she was making a judgment about the US vs. Australia so much as she was stating her roommate's preference. Though they're not all active, we have a few Australian members on the board.

They're doing the best they can to give you the info. Not all of them have personally been to Australia and/or are Asia-Asians so they're giving you what they know.

[Sebro]

I don't think she was making a judgment about the US vs. Australia so much as she was stating her roommate's preference. Though they're not all active, we have a few Australian members on the board.

They're doing the best they can to give you the info. Not all of them have personally been to Australia and/or are Asia-Asians so they're giving you what they know.

Thanks. I wasn't too sure if she was or wasn't, though it did read that way. That's problem with posts, you can't be too sure what someone means by what they say.

Again, I'd like thank people for contributing.

[moJo]

I'll try and not be offended by that. I'm not looking for Aussie bashing, I'm looking some constructive comments about how I could help make an Asians students transiton to living and studying in Australia better. I do welcome constructive criticism about my country but this post doesn't really help. I'll be the first to admit there is a fair bit of anti-Asian sentiment here, from what I hear it's much the same as the anti-Mexican sentiment in the U.S. I personally think this phobia of Asia and Asians on behalf of SOME (not all) Australians is stupid and ill-founded but you've got to remember we're a small, predominately white sparely populated nation on the edge of Asia, I think that's where this anti-Asian sentiment comes from. In short, it's a result of some peoples own insecurities.

Anyway, could you please tell me what it was she didn't like about Australia? That would be helpful.

Thanks

btw - I knew a Japanese student who studied in the U.S. for a few years and came to Australia and much prefered it here. I guess it's up to personal preference.
uhm why would you be offended. it's not like my roommate doesn't like you.

anyway, she didn't say that Aus was racist. rather, she just felt more comfortable here (san francisco) where the asian community is much bigger. she also felt like there was more to do, in terms of fun/entertainment. i forget where she lived in Aus but it was either Sydney or Melbourne. and i didn't ask her about HK vs. Aus, but i'm assuming she likes HK better because she spent her formative years there, her family is back there, and it's her primary culture.

i also have two cousins that studied in Sydney years ago (one is in her 40's now, the other is in his 30's), both from HK. one went to Univ there and stayed, got married, and is raising her family in Melbourne. the other went to HS there for one year and left to come to UC Berkeley for Univ and is now a post-doc in Texas.

[Sebro]

uhm why would you be offended. it's not like my roommate doesn't like you.

anyway, she didn't say that Aus was racist. rather, she just felt more comfortable here (san francisco) where the asian community is much bigger. she also felt like there was more to do, in terms of fun/entertainment. i forget where she lived in Aus but it was either Sydney or Melbourne. and i didn't ask her about HK vs. Aus, but i'm assuming she likes HK better because she spent her formative years there, her family is back there, and it's her primary culture.

i also have two cousins that studied in Sydney years ago (one is in her 40's now, the other is in his 30's), both from HK. one went to Univ there and stayed, got married, and is raising her family in Melbourne. the other went to HS there for one year and left to come to UC Berkeley for Univ and is now a post-doc in Texas.


Sorry, I misread the post. Thanks for your contribution.

[s1eve]

Aren't there student associations which support international students within the university? Surely it should be the university's responsibility to provide some backbone support especially in Melbourne and Sydney.

I still think Australia is a good destination for students to study English but it seems to be getting really competitive. There seems to be a dropoff in the number of students wishing to study in Australia and New Zealand. Most preferring the US and Canada whilst countries such as China are promoting English language schools locally.

[Sebro]

Aren't there student associations which support international students within the university? Surely it should be the university's responsibility to provide some backbone support especially in Melbourne and Sydney.

I still think Australia is a good destination for students to study English but it seems to be getting really competitive. There seems to be a dropoff in the number of students wishing to study in Australia and New Zealand. Most preferring the US and Canada whilst countries such as China are promoting English language schools locally.

I'll be helping out though Deakin (Deakin is the name of my uni) International which is the body that helps support international students.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Personally, I'm not that fond of Australian education. But it has nothing to do with Australia itself, more in the way it affects the foreign students and perpetuates elitism in surrounding countries.

Lots of Malaysians go to study in Australia. They claim it's for the "international experience." But plenty of Malaysian universities have a LOT more racial and national diversity than Australian ones. Nigerians, Bosnians, Kazakhs, Palestinians, North Koreans, Hui, etc. But of course, Malaysia's brand of internationalization, too heavily dominated by the ummah and by students from poor countries, is definitely not what the rich Malaysians who go to study overseas are looking for, regardless of the actual quality of education.

Of course, upon their return, these same hypocrites start bitching about how racist Australia is. Well hmm, you had the option to stay close to home where, since it's our own damn country, you'd experience less personal racism (as opposed to government-mandated economic discrimination and ketuanan melayu, which is another matter). But y'all stuck it out in Australia anyway, cuz apparently any insult to your pride is worth the price of admission to becoming a Malaysian elitist.

The worst thing is, some of these kids go overseas and stick to other Malaysians for their entire time, so they come back with a worse level of Manglish than they started out with. But they have an international degree, so it's all good. I have respect for people graduating from well-known universities. I have no respect for someone who would rather go overseas and pay foreign student tuition at some bumblefuck university no one's ever heard of, rather than just staying close to home. Cuz when rich Malaysians (especially Chinese) say "international experience", they really mean "get a Western education and come back to Malaysia to flaunt your excellent English and look down on the locals."

[Sebro]

Personally, I'm not that fond of Australian education. But it has nothing to do with Australia itself, more in the way it affects the foreign students and perpetuates elitism in surrounding countries.

Lots of Malaysians go to study in Australia. They claim it's for the "international experience." But plenty of Malaysian universities have a LOT more racial and national diversity than Australian ones. Nigerians, Bosnians, Kazakhs, Palestinians, North Koreans, Hui, etc. But of course, Malaysia's brand of internationalization, too heavily dominated by the ummah and by students from poor countries, is definitely not what the rich Malaysians who go to study overseas are looking for, regardless of the actual quality of education.

Of course, upon their return, these same hypocrites start bitching about how racist Australia is. Well hmm, you had the option to stay close to home where, since it's our own damn country, you'd experience less personal racism (as opposed to government-mandated economic discrimination and ketuanan melayu, which is another matter). But y'all stuck it out in Australia anyway, cuz apparently any insult to your pride is worth the price of admission to becoming a Malaysian elitist.

The worst thing is, some of these kids go overseas and stick to other Malaysians for their entire time, so they come back with a worse level of Manglish than they started out with. But they have an international degree, so it's all good. I have respect for people graduating from well-known universities. I have no respect for someone who would rather go overseas and pay foreign student tuition at some bumblefuck university no one's ever heard of, rather than just staying close to home. Cuz when rich Malaysians (especially Chinese) say "international experience", they really mean "get a Western education and come back to Malaysia to flaunt your excellent English and look down on the locals."

I wouldn't really describe many uni's in Australia as "bumblefuck". Some are just more elitist than others. I'll compare my uni to Melbourne Uni, for example. My uni still has high-ish admission standards but you don't have to get a ridiculously high ENTER (Entire Nation Territory Entrance Ranking) which you can only get from going to a private school. I am personally from a lower-middle working class background so a private school was out of the question for me, I actually earned my way into uni because I worked hard rather just because of the school I went to. Anyway, that aside, a friend of mine who started at Deakin transferred to Melbourne and he hasn't really noticed any difference, except it cost more and there are a hell of allot more people there who went to private schools. I know that's off topic and the emerging two-tiered education system in Australia really has nothing to do with it, but hey, why not?

My uni is actually quite good for International Relations, which is what I study. Allot of my lecturers often go off to Canberra to do training for DFAT (Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade) and other such things. It is also odd seeing them on t.v. sometimes giving their expert opinions on whatever it is they are asked to give their opinion on.

I think what you said about Malaysian (all international students, for that matter) students sticking to themselves is kind of true but don't forget they're in a foreign country surrounded by a foreign culture which can be intimidating so I can understand why they may do that. But, on the other, I think there should be more of an effort made on both sides (domestic and international students) to actually make contact.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions on how I could help Asian students in adjusting to living and studying in Australia?

[Craig]

I wouldn't really describe many uni's in Australia as "bumblefuck". Some are just more elitist than others. I'll compare my uni to Melbourne Uni, for example. My uni still has high-ish admission standards but you don't have to get a ridiculously high ENTER (Entire Nation Territory Entrance Ranking) which you can only get from going to a private school. I am personally from a lower-middle working class background so a private school was out of the question for me, I actually earned my way into uni because I worked hard rather just because of the school I went to. Anyway, that aside, a friend of mine who started at Deakin transferred to Melbourne and he hasn't really noticed any difference, except it cost more and there are a hell of allot more people there who went to private schools. I know that's off topic and the emerging two-tiered education system in Australia really has nothing to do with it, but hey, why not?

My uni is actually quite good for International Relations, which is what I study. Allot of my lecturers often go off to Canberra to do training for DFAT (Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade) and other such things. It is also odd seeing them on t.v. sometimes giving their expert opinions on whatever it is they are asked to give their opinion on.

I think what you said about Malaysian (all international students, for that matter) students sticking to themselves is kind of true but don't forget they're in a foreign country surrounded by a foreign culture which can be intimidating so I can understand why they may do that. But, on the other, I think there should be more of an effort made on both sides (domestic and international students) to actually make contact.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions on how I could help Asian students in adjusting to living and studying in Australia?
You can start by first taking a step back and examining what is said more closely before you jump in to answer. This is not just in reference to AliBaba's comment, but to your previous postings. Your presence and comments seems to be preemitively very 'defensive'. I would surmise some of the people on this board would prefer to be talked to, rather than being talked at.

[kimpossible]

Anyway, do you have any suggestions on how I could help Asian students in adjusting to living and studying in Australia?

I have suggestions on what I think you could or should do but I haven't any idea how valuable it would be.

Don't concentrate so much on the forward end so that you end up mainly directing them rather than supporting them. Of course they're going to have preconceived notions if they've never been to Australia before. That's why it's a learning experience.

Don't focus so much on the idea that they're Asian students for a couple of reasons. They already know they're foreigners (as in not Australians) and don't need to be reminded. You also can't protect them from anti-Asian sentiment. If it's going to happen to them, it's going to happen to them. But be attentive and supportive in case you need to step in on their behalf in your assigned role.

Give them a full Australian experience, whatever that means. Expose them to Australian history, cuisine, industries and products, culture, . It may be mundane to you but it's cool to us foreigners.

Be patient with them. Sometimes it takes a little longer to respond in a second language and the end of a day for me in nothing but a learned language is tougher than the morning. Also, some terms may be different than what they're used to. I'm a native English speaker somewhat used to British English and there were still some phrases or words that threw me in Australia and NZ.

Be understanding. They might have criticisms of Australians or Australia.

Remember what your role is: to help them while they're in Australia as a local rep. You don't have to treat them a certain way because they're Asian. Just help them as you would any other visiting student.

[Sebro]

You can start by first taking a step back and examining what is said more closely before you jump in to answer. This is not just in reference to AliBaba's comment, but to your previous postings. Your presence and comments seems to be preemitively very 'defensive'. I would surmise some of the people on this board would prefer to be talked to, rather than being talked at.

Don't mean to talk at people, sorry, it's just the way I write. I wasn't attacking AliBaba's comments, just trying to explain the higher education system in Australia from my very (admittedly) opininated standpoint.

[Craig]

Don't mean to talk at people, sorry, it's just the way I write. I wasn't attacking AliBaba's comments, just trying to explain the higher education system in Australia from my very (admittedly) opininated standpoint.
I didn't think you were attacking AliBaba, but just not paying attention to his comments.

He wasn't making any reference to the quality of any particular Australian universities (or Australian universities in general). He seemed to be making reference to Asians that have a mindset that any degree (even a crappy degree from the worst school with no standards) from XYZ Western country is better than every degree (including the highest most difficult degree from a rigorous school with high standards) from ABC Asian country.

I personally, don't have a good enough reference point for Australian universities to give a poignant example.

[Sebro]

I didn't think you were attacking AliBaba, but just not paying attention to his comments.

He wasn't making any reference to the quality of any particular Australian universities (or Australian universities in general). He seemed to be making reference to Asians that have a mindset that any degree (even a crappy degree from the worst school with no standards) from XYZ Western country is better than every degree (including the highest most difficult degree from a rigorous school with high standards) from ABC Asian country.

I personally, don't have a good enough reference point for Australian universities to give a poignant example.

Cheers, thanks for that. I kind of got that from Ali's post not with the same clarity. Not to say it was poorly writen, I just interperate things differently, but hey, don't we all?

[mrcfo]

Personally, I'm not that fond of Australian education. But it has nothing to do with Australia itself, more in the way it affects the foreign students and perpetuates elitism in surrounding countries.

Lots of Malaysians go to study in Australia. They claim it's for the "international experience." But plenty of Malaysian universities have a LOT more racial and national diversity than Australian ones. Nigerians, Bosnians, Kazakhs, Palestinians, North Koreans, Hui, etc. But of course, Malaysia's brand of internationalization, too heavily dominated by the ummah and by students from poor countries, is definitely not what the rich Malaysians who go to study overseas are looking for, regardless of the actual quality of education.

Of course, upon their return, these same hypocrites start bitching about how racist Australia is. Well hmm, you had the option to stay close to home where, since it's our own damn country, you'd experience less personal racism (as opposed to government-mandated economic discrimination and ketuanan melayu, which is another matter). But y'all stuck it out in Australia anyway, cuz apparently any insult to your pride is worth the price of admission to becoming a Malaysian elitist.

The worst thing is, some of these kids go overseas and stick to other Malaysians for their entire time, so they come back with a worse level of Manglish than they started out with. But they have an international degree, so it's all good. I have respect for people graduating from well-known universities. I have no respect for someone who would rather go overseas and pay foreign student tuition at some bumblefuck university no one's ever heard of, rather than just staying close to home. Cuz when rich Malaysians (especially Chinese) say "international experience", they really mean "get a Western education and come back to Malaysia to flaunt your excellent English and look down on the locals."

Correct me if I am wrong but isnt the Malaysian education system racist towards the Chinese in the first place? A Malaysian I met during my univeristy days told me there were limited places for Malaysian-Chinese.

Secondly, I think it's a bit unfair you had a go at Australia because I doubt other Anglo Saxon nations are any less racist (e.g. USA, Canada, NZ, GB), after all they are derived from pretty much the same heritage.

Sadly, I do have to agree that the "internalisation experience" is purely dominated by the fact that Australian universities are Anglo Saxon. This elitist mentality is actually created by Malaysian or to be more specific many other Asian socities. They often believe Western management, methods and experience are superior to that of their native culture, I have no opinion on this matter and would rather say its subjective.
Note that this "condescending on locals and showing off my superior English skills" mentality/attitude is everywhere in Asia, from Japan down to Indonesia.

Furthermore, the "Western elitisim" created not only includes Australia but also extends to Canada, USA...etc. universities. How exactly can you point the finger at Australians from creating this "superior" group in Asia???? Due to the proximity of Australia, it remains a popular choice for Asian students and also cheaper alternatives to other Western universities.

Onto Racism, to be fair, yes I do conceded most Australians are racist towards Asians (and perhaps all other non European and European races) to an extent but again, this is human nature. It is perhaps the people who you've met that live a rather sheltered/pampered life who have never stepped outside of Malaysia and believe that Australia is some paradise from them because mummy and daddy are rich back home.

Then again, to be a bastard, isn't Malaysia RACIST in the first place so by all means Chinese should be used to this already for generations. Australian racism is only in appareance, we do not have laws that explicitly ban or control the flow of univerisity entrants or restrictions on freedom to do business. Do note that whilst Asians have glass ceilings here we are pretty much (by law) on equal footing with the Caucasians as to freedoms and liberties.

Lastly, the Malaysians I've come across fall into two distinct categories - ones who try to hang around Malaysians who account for 90% and the minority who try to mix in - have a balance of cultural friends or purely hang out with Caucasians. The latter two groups especially those who purely hang around Caucaisans are mostly female some actually fit quite well because of their more open attitude and thinking. I even know sadly one who purely dates non-Asian men due to this mentality.

Clearly I think you have a thing against Australia - but I question your fair basis on this. Have you ever studied or been to Australia to make a valued judgement? Whilst Australian tertiary education can't compare to the cream of the American and British or Canadian crop, it's still fairly better than most of Asian universities. I am baffled as to why you have suggested hatred from the Australian education system when honestly all your complaints are related to the darker side of human nature/society than freggin the Australian education system and how different is it from the other Anglo Saxon based countries?

I wouldn't really describe many uni's in Australia as "bumblefuck". Some are just more elitist than others. I'll compare my uni to Melbourne Uni, for example. My uni still has high-ish admission standards but you don't have to get a ridiculously high ENTER (Entire Nation Territory Entrance Ranking) which you can only get from going to a private school. I am personally from a lower-middle working class background so a private school was out of the question for me, I actually earned my way into uni because I worked hard rather just because of the school I went to. Anyway, that aside, a friend of mine who started at Deakin transferred to Melbourne and he hasn't really noticed any difference, except it cost more and there are a hell of allot more people there who went to private schools. I know that's off topic and the emerging two-tiered education system in Australia really has nothing to do with it, but hey, why not?

My uni is actually quite good for International Relations, which is what I study. Allot of my lecturers often go off to Canberra to do training for DFAT (Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade) and other such things. It is also odd seeing them on t.v. sometimes giving their expert opinions on whatever it is they are asked to give their opinion on.

I think what you said about Malaysian (all international students, for that matter) students sticking to themselves is kind of true but don't forget they're in a foreign country surrounded by a foreign culture which can be intimidating so I can understand why they may do that. But, on the other, I think there should be more of an effort made on both sides (domestic and international students) to actually make contact.

Anyway, do you have any suggestions on how I could help Asian students in adjusting to living and studying in Australia?

From my experience (I'm an Asian-Australian btw who has lived in Australia for 21 yrs) is that the Asian overseas students (I've notice how they like to refer to themselves as INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS :rolleyes: ) is the general failure of mentality. I know its hard studying and being away from family and friends for a lengthy period but half of them don't really want to study and some don't like studying the course they and only do it just because they want a Permanent Residence status and eventually to become a fully fledged citizen.

Secondly, from experience Asian students generally have a poor understanding and grasp of English that is required for some English intensive courses such as business. I've met too many graduates who failed to write or construct a proper argumentative essay and perhaps by virtue of sympathy got some faculty pass or got extra assistance.

I think a suggestion is to weed out a lot of the pretender students but I suppose this is difficult to enforce due to the lucurative market they represent. Let's not kid ourselves the univerisity I attended and got my bachelor's degree from (RMIT) would be 6 foot under if not for the overseas students revenue.

Secondly, I don't think assimilation programs help either, sure they work for a while by introducing new stuff about culture and stuff about Australia but that tends to rub off after a while.

Perhaps a minimum standard for English as well as more information and expectations about study and working life would be better for the potential overseas student. Universities should hold seminars about the difficulties faced when over at their place and the racism that may be encountered and ways to deal with it would give these potential students a better idea of reality here as well as making a more informed decision. One day they may realise money could be better spent and a wise choice to study locally. Unfortunately, as I metioned, due to self interest (monetary) for univerisities and the overall "Western education is superior" job climate in most Asian countries, my suggestions may never leave this board.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Note that this "condescending on locals and showing off my superior English skills" mentality/attitude is everywhere in Asia, from Japan down to Indonesia.
Not really in Japan. Contrary to what English-speaking Asians write on the internet about Japan's alleged white-worshipping ways, to the average Japanese, foreign universities aren't really that much more prestigious than Japanese ones, especially if you're trying to get an entry-level job in a Japanese corporation, pursue a PhD, etc. Also the regard for English is a lot lower than almost anywhere else in Asia. For example, in HK, there are plenty of social contexts in which two Cantonese-speakers will speak (often shitty) English to each other, and in which a foreign-looking person speaking in Cantonese no matter how fluent would be looked at as though he fell out of the sky and landed on his head. (For example, any sandwich shop or bar on Hong Kong island). There is absolutely no equivalent to this in Japan. It would not occur to a Japanese person to speak to another Japanese person in English unless for the benefit of a non-Japanese who's also in the conversation.

Clearly I think you have a thing against Australia - but I question your fair basis on this. Have you ever studied or been to Australia to make a valued judgement? Whilst Australian tertiary education can't compare to the cream of the American and British or Canadian crop, it's still fairly better than most of Asian universities.
I don't have anything against Australia, except that y'all tend to accept the absolute bottom product of the Malaysian secondary educational system in exchange for higher fees. Furthermore, a lot of them will go to Australia and complain that the only reason they didn't get a seat at a domestic varsity was because they're not bumi; usually the real problem is that they're plain old dumb and wouldn't have been able to get in even under Matrikulasi (a system of 1-year prep school and dumbed-down college entrance exam restricted to Malays).

The elitism you mention was not created by Australia, the USA, UK, etc; it was created and remains perpetuated by the bilingual local elites in the Asian countries in question. Australia's role in this is peripheral --- it merely offers a brain-discount certificate of admission to this elite --- but like I said in my original post, I have nothing against the Australian tertiary education, just against the Malaysians who have graduated from it.

Then again, to be a bastard, isn't Malaysia RACIST in the first place so by all means Chinese should be used to this already for generations. Australian racism is only in appareance, we do not have laws that explicitly ban or control the flow of univerisity entrants or restrictions on freedom to do business. Do note that whilst Asians have glass ceilings here we are pretty much (by law) on equal footing with the Caucasians as to freedoms and liberties.
Malaysia is a society based on "ketuanan melayu" (literally "Malay lordship"); no one's come up with a suitable replacement ideology because the fundies up north and the kids who came back from studying in Arab countries veto the only real alternative ideology (one which still preserves a unique national identity, offers a central social role to Malays who don't have much economic power, and doesn't turn us into a shitty copy of Singapore), that of "Islam hadhari" (literally "Islamic civilization" but which you can for practical purposes translate as "Islamic secularism").

In some senses, ketuanan melayu is more insiduous than Western-style racism, but then, Malaysia's socioeconomic situation doesn't match that of the US, Australia, etc. with "market dominant majorities." Ketuanan melayu is a political instrument created by a jealous, grasping majority who firmly believe there's no other way they're going to progress economically besides appropriating Chinese wealth, since:
1) they believe they don't have the human capital to produce that much wealth themselves
2) they don't even have the option of bending over in submission and assimilate into the culture of the market-dominant minority, since that market-dominant minority does NOT accept assimilants.

Take this thought experiment: if Chinese people had intermarried with Malays, would we still have this system of "ketuanan Melayu"? Almost assuredly not; instead, Malaysia would have ended up like Latin America, with Chinese-looking folks on top, native-looking folks on the bottom trying to scramble their way up towards Chineseness, and the culture of the Chinese market-dominant minority defining the tempo for the whole nation. So to be a bastard in return, I'm really tempted to say, it's the fault of Chinese racism that the Malays have created a system of government to deprive us Chinese people of our economic rights.

[mrcfo]

Not really in Japan. Contrary to what English-speaking Asians write on the internet about Japan's alleged white-worshipping ways, to the average Japanese, foreign universities aren't really that much more prestigious than Japanese ones, especially if you're trying to get an entry-level job in a Japanese corporation, pursue a PhD, etc. Also the regard for English is a lot lower than almost anywhere else in Asia. For example, in HK, there are plenty of social contexts in which two Cantonese-speakers will speak (often shitty) English to each other, and in which a foreign-looking person speaking in Cantonese no matter how fluent would be looked at as though he fell out of the sky and landed on his head. (For example, any sandwich shop or bar on Hong Kong island). There is absolutely no equivalent to this in Japan. It would not occur to a Japanese person to speak to another Japanese person in English unless for the benefit of a non-Japanese who's also in the conversation.

I don't have anything against Australia, except that y'all tend to accept the absolute bottom product of the Malaysian secondary educational system in exchange for higher fees. Furthermore, a lot of them will go to Australia and complain that the only reason they didn't get a seat at a domestic varsity was because they're not bumi; usually the real problem is that they're plain old dumb and wouldn't have been able to get in even under Matrikulasi (a system of 1-year prep school and dumbed-down college entrance exam restricted to Malays).



I don't know if you have recently visited Japan but clearly the importance of English has risen. There are heaps of reasons why English isn't as paramount in Japan as it is in say China or HK because the Japanese have successfully adapted Western technology and methodology into their culture. Economics is a big factor with regards to the power of a language. Since the Japanese dominate most value added/high tech industries and most HQ-ed in Japan, there isn't really a need to learn English. Colonialisation and a lack of technology has created a elitist effect on English and a licence to enter "big circles".

As I metioned in my previous post, there needs to be stricter entrance tests and that they are too many "pretender" students I've met. Also, it's a revenue generation tatic, but according to many I've come across it's relatively easy to go to either Canada, USA or GB as well if you have the $$$.

I really don't understand why you single out Australia...it is no worse than Canada, USA or GB it just so happens that due to the proximity to Asia of them all and that it's a Western nation as well as being relatively more afforable that it becomes a popular destination for Asian overseas students. Australian universities accepts as many rejects and retards as do the other 3 Anglox Saxon nations's universities. Furthermore, ironically of all the top Asianstudents here with a huge pool from all over Asia, it's actually the Malaysians who come out with the best results and achievements overall. Apart from Caucasians and local Asian students, Malaysians are actually in the upper class of students here, maybe it has something to do with better English skills, I don't know.

I would really appreciate a explantion of why Australia is singled out. Again, I don't have anything against Australia, except that y'all tend to accept the absolute bottom product of the Malaysian secondary educational system in exchange for higher fees. - the word Australia could easily be replaced by GB, USA or Canada.

[Sebro]

From my experience (I'm an Asian-Australian btw who has lived in Australia for 21 yrs) is that the Asian overseas students (I've notice how they like to refer to themselves as INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS :rolleyes: ) is the general failure of mentality. I know its hard studying and being away from family and friends for a lengthy period but half of them don't really want to study and some don't like studying the course they and only do it just because they want a Permanent Residence status and eventually to become a fully fledged citizen.

Secondly, from experience Asian students generally have a poor understanding and grasp of English that is required for some English intensive courses such as business. I've met too many graduates who failed to write or construct a proper argumentative essay and perhaps by virtue of sympathy got some faculty pass or got extra assistance.

I think a suggestion is to weed out a lot of the pretender students but I suppose this is difficult to enforce due to the lucurative market they represent. Let's not kid ourselves the univerisity I attended and got my bachelor's degree from (RMIT) would be 6 foot under if not for the overseas students revenue.

Secondly, I don't think assimilation programs help either, sure they work for a while by introducing new stuff about culture and stuff about Australia but that tends to rub off after a while.

Perhaps a minimum standard for English as well as more information and expectations about study and working life would be better for the potential overseas student. Universities should hold seminars about the difficulties faced when over at their place and the racism that may be encountered and ways to deal with it would give these potential students a better idea of reality here as well as making a more informed decision. One day they may realise money could be better spent and a wise choice to study locally. Unfortunately, as I metioned, due to self interest (monetary) for univerisities and the overall "Western education is superior" job climate in most Asian countries, my suggestions may never leave this board.

Thanks for that, an interesting read. What do you do at RMIT? A mate of mine went there and I used to do a show for SYN FM so I know the city campus pretty well. I agree with you 100% about language causing problems, remember that guy who shot those people at Monash?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

mrcfo, like I keep saying and to which you don't listen, I have nothing against Australia so there's really no need to get so defensive. And cut the "appeal to authority" tactic if you want to disagree with my arguments about Japan, I studied Japanese for 6 years, so I'm at least entitled to my own opinion about the place.

As for Australia, since I'm also Malaysian and work in Hong Kong, I come into contact with boatloads of people who have returned from studying in Australia. For the most part I'm not impressed with their quality. This is an unavoidable effect of the fact that of the better students, the rich ones or any middle class family who can scrape together a few hundred thousand ringgits for elder son #1 (usually by putting all his younger sisters to work straight outta high school) aim for the famous universities in UK, the US, or Canada, in that order. Ones who are poor or want to stay close to home head for Singapore or to domestic universities. Australia is widely viewed as a backup option for the rich. Sure, UK and especially US universities may accept lots of dumbasses, but they're not Malaysian dumbasses, so it has absolutely no bearing on the image that UK-returned students have in Malaysia (which is a lot better than that of Australia-returned students).

Actually, Japanese-returned students probably have the best image out of everyone in Malaysia, since people still think every single one of them got a government scholarship to go there (a significant proportion actually did, though, but definitely not everyone).

[Sebro]

mrcfo, like I keep saying and to which you don't listen, I have nothing against Australia so there's really no need to get so defensive. And cut the "appeal to authority" tactic if you want to disagree with my arguments about Japan, I studied Japanese for 6 years, so I'm at least entitled to my own opinion about the place.

As for Australia, since I'm also Malaysian and work in Hong Kong, I come into contact with boatloads of people who have returned from studying in Australia. For the most part I'm not impressed with their quality. This is an unavoidable effect of the fact that of the better students, the rich ones or any middle class family who can scrape together a few hundred thousand ringgits for elder son #1 (usually by putting all his younger sisters to work straight outta high school) aim for the famous universities in UK, the US, or Canada, in that order. Ones who are poor or want to stay close to home head for Singapore or to domestic universities. Australia is widely viewed as a backup option for the rich. Sure, UK and especially US universities may accept lots of dumbasses, but they're not Malaysian dumbasses, so it has absolutely no bearing on the image that UK-returned students have in Malaysia (which is a lot better than that of Australia-returned students).

Actually, Japanese-returned students probably have the best image out of everyone in Malaysia, since people still think every single one of them got a government scholarship to go there (a significant proportion actually did, though, but definitely not everyone).


I think I get what you mean, that allot of poor quality Malaysian students come to study in Australia but that's not a reflection on the standard of the higher education system here, it just the people who go there in the first place. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying? Don't mean to put words in your mouth.

I'm personally not a fan of domestic full-fee paying students myself and I think Australian universities view them, and international students (who are also full fee paying but I have nothing against them because that's their only option) as walking wads of cash so they lower the entrance requirments to get at their sweet moola. Or maybe I'm just having another lefty rant.

[mrcfo]

I think I get what you mean, that allot of poor quality Malaysian students come to study in Australia but that's not a reflection on the standard of the higher education system here, it just the people who go there in the first place. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying? Don't mean to put words in your mouth.

I'm personally not a fan of domestic full-fee paying students myself and I think Australian universities view them, and international students (who are also full fee paying but I have nothing against them because that's their only option) as walking wads of cash so they lower the entrance requirments to get at their sweet moola. Or maybe I'm just having another lefty rant.

I'd like to quote from Sebro's post as it incorporates Ali's post as well. I'm only getting defensive because you single out Australia which again remains unanswered as why you do so. As I said in my past XXX posts, the same can be said for Canada, the US, GB, NZ etc. As I already metioned, Asian students prefer freggin Australia because of proximity and price. What this really indicates is a failure of education and how sadly it has become a "business" if you like. If I don't "listen" to your posts, do you ever read what I POST???

As for my Japan reference, I repeat again, it's merely because they are technologically advanced. This can also be said of France, if China was technologically UP THERE you'd think they'd give 2 S*its about English and communicate with each other in crummby English?

Btw, the sample of students or grads from Aussie unis whilst in HK is only that - a sample. God knows what university they attended here.

Sebro, hey doode, I finished a bachelor of Accounting (graduated in 2002 if memory serves me correctly). Again, I think to correct these things is impossible by setting higher comeptency standards to admit potential students due to the lucurative market Asia presents itself with. Local students just drain the HECS system (which in turn defers payments) and strains the university's cash flow system, also compare $10,000 AUD to $3,000AUD Overseas:Local ratio it doesn't take a Warren Buffet to work out which is the better business deal.

Whilst I was doing my undergraduate degree and through the acquaintences I've met during that period, it's rather bitter to see how eroded the education system is fast becoming. RMIT had to run a few classes in the business department catered for Asian students who needed extra work in their English skills.

If this was a world based on a rights based system and not interest based system (as it currently is), overseas applicants would be admitted through credit and the number would be capped. None of this come in if you have the $$ and during your stay you'll also help the Aussie economy kinda S#it.

My main gripe about the current system is this:

* There are too many "dodgy" students who try to come here and study a course they never wish to practice just for the purpose of getting a PR and eventually flully fledge citizen and gaining their passport here. In other words, this could be thought of as an expensive alternative to paying a snakehead and arriving here in a tanker or boat.

[LilyLily]

You can start by first taking a step back and examining what is said more closely before you jump in to answer. This is not just in reference to AliBaba's comment, but to your previous postings. Your presence and comments seems to be preemitively very 'defensive'. I would surmise some of the people on this board would prefer to be talked to, rather than being talked at.


I agree with you Craig.

I find this person feels some sense of superiority.

[Broomer]

I'm a Chinese migrant who's been in the country for over twenty years, and I've been through the entire ringer - from Primary through Monash.

Overall, the people here are great. Like any other countries, you will get - pardon my language - wankers. So my advice to people studying (or planning to study in Australia is):

1) Pick you courses wisely. It's importantly locally but even more so in Australia. Some courses are a waste of time but others a re gold mines. Things like Arts, Business (esp Accounting, Marketing, HR, etc), Medicines, law, and engineering are great courses. If you plan to stay aim for these. If you're interesting in something of a trade, aim for plumbing, electricians, mechanics (all field but especially air conditioning, lift, CATs, etc) and carpentry. An average plumber or electrician can earn more then a GP - mainly since there's less overheads.

IT; you are on your own but it's still an option - especially if you've got the talent. Just be warned, you're going to get drained pretty quickly. IT lab facilities in unis (even now) is pretty pathetic.

2) Get here at least six months in advance; enrolment aside - you'll need to get used to living here. That nice place your uncle has in the suburbs may turn out to be a nightmare when you're waiting one hour for the train to get to the station. Then there's the language thing and the subculture you'll need to get used to. If you're in Melbourne (like me), you'll need to get used to the weather.

3) Seriouslly consider getting a car. This helps - A LOT. It's beautiful country but it's pretty good, damned big. To illustrate a point, I consider the 10 minute walk I make to the train station as being "close", my girl tried the distance and thought it was a marathon.

4) Racism - do not let it get to you. It's still around, nothing surprising there. The point is that if someone steps on your foot racially, just remember - it's illegal. Not to mention there are other ways to making the perpretrator trip up. Stand your ground and show no fear. Grin, especially if you've got the confidence.

5) For the ladies; usual precautions applies.

6) Be open minded and carefree, but remain sharp and attentive. It helps dealing with the locals.

7) Stay out of Canberra. Nothing really bad there; it's just stale. It's like the land that time forgot. The only good about it is that they've legalised weed use and it's the porn capital of Australia. This pretty much sums up the country really.

Kind regards,

Broomer