Protest Against Police Brutality

[achtungbaby]

STATEMENT TO THE ASIAN COMMUNITY
Seventh National Day of Protest Against Police Brutality, Repression, and the Criminalization of a Generation, October 22, 2002

Come out on October 22 to voice our resistance to police brutality, repression, and the criminalization of a generation:

• Chicago: 12 noon, Federal Plaza, Adams and Dearborn
• Honolulu: 7pm, Honolulu Zoo Parking Lot
• Los Angeles: 2pm, Olympic and Broadway
• New Haven: 3:30pm, Police Headquarters, 1 Union Avenue
• New York City, 4pm, Union Square South, 14th and Broadway
• San Francisco Bay Area: 4pm, Downtown Oakland, 14th and Broadway
• Seattle: 4:30pm, Broadway and East Pine

full story (http://yellowworld.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=143)

[Reinhard H.]

I don't want to give some smartass white guy's comment again, but are you sure that racial profiling is not acceptable "under any circumstances"? Let's say the police has a hint of a coming terrorist attack from Al Qaida, wouldn't they be justified in searching Arabs and Arab Americans more thoroughly at airports etc., since all the terrorists of September 11th and nearly all of the Al Qaida members are Arabs? I mean shouldn't they maybe give a single Arab male boarding a plane a more thorough security check than a black mother with three kids boarding the same plane? What would you say, if you were flying on the same plane instead of sitting in front of your computer now?
In addition this campaign is being led by an organization that calls itself "Asians for Mumia", Mumia murdered a police officer who was lying wounded and unarmed on the pavement in cold blood, with a head shot from close range, the police officer had two young kids, is this a person one should defend, just because he is black? How about "Asians for Tim McVeigh"?
Also I don't see any connection between racial profiling by the police and the Vincent Chin case, was Chin beaten to death because of racial profiling by the police?
Regarding the interned Japanese in WW2, Americans who were in Japan at the time were also interned, in addition thousands of German Americans were interned in the US as well, but never received any compensations or public recognition, in contrast to the Japanese Americans. I just write this, because one often hears that the Japanese Americans were interned because of "racism", why didn't they intern the Chinese Americans then? There is a good book on the thousands of Germans (who were American citizens) who were interned, so racism can hardly have been the main reason for Japanese American internment.
I realize these ideas are not very popular on such a forum, but I guess the idea of a forum is debate, so I just want to offer some controversial opinions on the matter.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 06:58 AM
I don't want to give some smartass white guy's comment again, but are you sure that racial profiling is not acceptable "under any circumstances"? Let's say the police has a hint of a coming terrorist attack from Al Qaida, wouldn't they be justified in searching Arabs and Arab Americans more thoroughly at airports etc., since all the terrorists of September 11th and nearly all of the Al Qaida members are Arabs? I mean shouldn't they maybe give a single Arab male boarding a plane a more thorough security check than a black mother with three kids boarding the same plane? What would you say, if you were flying on the same plane instead of sitting in front of your computer now?
In addition this campaign is being led by an organization that calls itself "Asians for Mumia", Mumia murdered a police officer who was lying wounded and unarmed on the pavement in cold blood, with a head shot from close range, the police officer had two young kids, is this a person one should defend, just because he is black? How about "Asians for Tim McVeigh"?
Also I don't see any connection between racial profiling by the police and the Vincent Chin case, was Chin beaten to death because of racial profiling by the police?
Regarding the interned Japanese in WW2, Americans who were in Japan at the time were also interned, in addition thousands of German Americans were interned in the US as well, but never received any compensations or public recognition, in contrast to the Japanese Americans. I just write this, because one often hears that the Japanese Americans were interned because of "racism", why didn't they intern the Chinese Americans then? There is a good book on the thousands of Germans (who were American citizens) who were interned, so racism can hardly have been the main reason for Japanese American internment.
I realize these ideas are not very popular on such a forum, but I guess the idea of a forum is debate, so I just want to offer some controversial opinions on the matter.
ah-ha! finally some non-smartass white guy comment from Reinhard! :)

i never knew about the internment of german americans. thanks for the info. i'll have to read up on it.

regarding the profiling of arab people. lest we forget, while most al qaida members are arab, most arabs are not members of al qaida. and the only american convicted of fighting for the al qaida was not an arab american, he was a white american.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 03:58 AM
There is a good book on the thousands of Germans (who were American citizens) who were interned, so racism can hardly have been the main reason for Japanese American internment.

What's the title of the book? No sarcasm. Actual interest here.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Reinhard: Racial profiling of Arabs doesn't work all that great. Saudi Arabia doesn't exactly have a shortage of guys who could pass for Greeks or Italians if they shaved their beards.. Hell, some ethnic groups in Pakistan look like Russians and have reddish hair. Remember that national geographic pic all those years back of that girl with really bright green eyes? She was Pashto.

In fact, when you tell underpaid, undereducated security screeners to look for Arabs, they tend to actually pick out groups who have historically suffered at the hands of Arabs' racism - Sikhs, Hindus, and dark-skinned non-Arab Muslims who tend to be just as opposed to Al Qaeda as Americans are cuz they are sick of arrogant imams coming in and trying to impose medieval Arab culture on them in the name of Islam. (or maybe this is just a Malaysian thing - but hey, US security still searched the Deputy PM of Malaysia). This has the effect of pissing off people who are actually on your side.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

also, why didn't we intern the Italians during WWII (though I do recall something about them being required to surrender radio transmitters).

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 21 2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 03:58 AM
There is a good book on the thousands of Germans (who were American citizens) who were interned, so racism can hardly have been the main reason for Japanese American internment.

What's the title of the book? No sarcasm. Actual interest here.
Me too and that's saying alot considering I don't have much time for reading outside of medical books and journals. But, I'll make time for this one.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Oct 21 2002, 11:06 AM-->

[Reinhard H.]

I don't see why you even have to point out that no sarcasm is intended, German Americans were badly suppressed in both World Wars, in WW1 even more than in the Second World War, for example many were forced to "Americanize" their names (like Eisehower instead of the German Eisenhauer), something no Asian American group had to go through. In addition in many cases their assets were seized and not returned after the war. The only reason there has not been any public discussion on these issues is that the Germans are no favoured "minority" group of the politically correct establishment, if they had a different skin colour I am sure there would be books and movies on the subject, outside of the historical niche in which this subject is now being dealth with.

There are several books on the subject, but the media of course don't transport this into the mainstream:

America's Invisible Gulag: A Biography of German American Internment & Exclusion in World War II: Memory & History
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...926256?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0820449148/qid=1035212764/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0435684-2926256?v=glance)

Undue Process: The Untold Story of America's German Alien Internees
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...926256?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0847685187/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-0435684-2926256?v=glance)

A more comprehensive overview of German Americans during the wars, including internment and the various other forms of suppression is offered by:
"German Americans in the World Wars"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/359...0435684-2926256 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3598215304/qid%3D1035212059/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-0435684-2926256)

Then there is the book by Stephen C. Fox on the internment of Italian Americans:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...926256?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805791086/qid=1035212154/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0435684-2926256?v=glance)


So it was by no means only the Japanese Americans who were interned. Of course I acknowledge that Germany started WW2, but the same can be said about Japan as well. In contrast to the Japanese Americans, Germans never received any compensation or even public recognition.

[deez nuts]

Thanks, Reinhard. I'll swing by the local Barnes and Nobles to pick it up. If they don't have it I'll get it thru amazon.

[Reinhard H.]

BTW, the book I would personally recommend is "Undue Process".

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 11:25 AM
BTW, the book I would personally recommend is "Undue Process".
I saw they have a deal with "Undue Process" and "America's Invisible Gulag." Gonna get both if they have that deal.

Thanks for exposing me to this.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 11:17 AM
German Americans were badly suppressed in both World Wars, in WW1 even more than in the Second World War, for example many were forced to "Americanize" their names (like Eisehower instead of the German Eisenhauer), something no Asian American group had to go through.
well actually no asian american group went through this because there's no point to it. asian americans are a visible minority group. no matter how they change their names, people can still tell that they're asians. in fact, chinese americans had to wear signs on their backs that said that they're not japanese (or "jap"), for fear of backlash from people they interact with. on the other hand, german americans, if they can speak english without an accent, could hide their heritage by changing their last names. but japanese americans also made an effort to americanize themselves because of the internment. many japanese americans stopped speaking japanese altogether, and stopped teaching it to their children.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 11:58 AM

Regarding the interned Japanese in WW2, Americans who were in Japan at the time were also interned, in addition thousands of German Americans were interned in the US as well, but never received any compensations or public recognition, in contrast to the Japanese Americans. I just write this, because one often hears that the Japanese Americans were interned because of "racism", why didn't they intern the Chinese Americans then? There is a good book on the thousands of Germans (who were American citizens) who were interned, so racism can hardly have been the main reason for Japanese American internment.
I realize these ideas are not very popular on such a forum, but I guess the idea of a forum is debate, so I just want to offer some controversial opinions on the matter.
But doesn't this prove more than ever that racism, or at least stigma attached to "foreignness" was alive and well AND dangerous? Just because the German Americans did NOT receive compensation or public recognition does NOT mean Japanese Americans shouldn't have. On the contrary, it is because many German Americans have become so assimilated they no longer have any ties to their ancestors' place of origin, and therefore not enough German Americans have formed a movement to seek justice for German American citizens who were interned.

Also, look at numbers. Almost ALL Japanese Americans of the West Coast, I believe, were interned. On the other hand, a mere few thousand German American citizens were interned when German Americans are the LARGEST ethnic group in America (yes, exceeding WASPs in number). That last statement I don't have a book or reference for; I got that out of German textbook in high school.

I agree German Americans were horribly mistreated during World War I, and many were horribly mistreated during World War II. But just because their wrongs were not addressed does not suddenly negate the possibility of racism, or in this case, more precisely, xenophobia, has had very real and very harmful consequences. And xenophobia is one reason why today, we have a strong anti-immigration lobby, and we have a people justifying racial profiling of Arab Americans or Muslim Americans. This is why incidences of xenophobia that have NOt been publicized in American history should be given more attention, rather than using them as semi-excuses to mute attention toward well-known cases of xenophobia.

[Reinhard H.]

I agree that many Japanese Americans were mistreated in WW2, but on the other hand it was a world war, not some tea party, so I think in some way internment was also a justified security measure. Of course their property should have been returned after the war and those found innocent should have received some compensation (as they did), but I think several thousand Japanese Americans actually renounced their American citizenship at the outbreak of WW2, so clearly there were reasons to be concerned some of these people would form a "fifth column" in the case of an attempted Japanese invasion of the American mainland. I don't want to justify internment the way it took place, but it's also naive to assume that all these Japanese Americans were loyal to the US. In the case of the German Americans it would not have been physically possible to intern all of them, but German Americans when they fought as soldiers for the US were only allowed to fight on the pacific front, as some Japanese Americans also fought in Europe.

[kimpossible]

I'm going to jump on this moment of good will and understanding because I'm not sure how long it will last :unsure: . If you care to Reinhard, can you share some of your background? (work, ed, exp, whatever) No pressure, I realize that a lot of people don't feel comfortable doing that.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 04:51 PM
I agree that many Japanese Americans were mistreated in WW2, but on the other hand it was a world war, not some tea party, so I think in some way internment was also a justified security measure. Of course their property should have been returned after the war and those found innocent should have received some compensation (as they did), but I think several thousand Japanese Americans actually renounced their American citizenship at the outbreak of WW2, so clearly there were reasons to be concerned some of these people would form a "fifth column" in the case of an attempted Japanese invasion of the American mainland. I don't want to justify internment the way it took place, but it's also naive to assume that all these Japanese Americans were loyal to the US. In the case of the German Americans it would not have been physically possible to intern all of them, but German Americans when they fought as soldiers for the US were only allowed to fight on the pacific front, as some Japanese Americans also fought in Europe.


It WOULD be naive to believe ALL Japanese Americans were loyal, but I still think xenophobia, perhaps racism, figured into interning ALL of them. Some Japanese Americans also renounced their citizenship while in internment, which doesn't seem so unreasonable. I wouldn't choose to serve a country that locked me up based solely on suspicion, either. I am not sure if several thousand Japanese Americans renounced their citizenship before the war, or right after Pearl Harbor, but I can't argue with you on that since I don't know. B)

I don't think the Japanese American mass internment was a reasonable security measure. I understand WHY it was done, I just feel it was wrong to do it. And that it should never be done again.


If German Americans were only allowed to fight on the Pacific front, then how could Eisenhower have been commander of the allied forces in Europe, and as you just alluded to previously, he is a German American? Eisenhower's father was the first person who insisted in speaking English rather than German at home. I am not sure about everything else, but given the large #'s of German Americans, perhaps only first or second generation German Americans were not allowed to fight in Europe, although I have never heard of this before. If it's true, then thanks for the info.

[Reinhard H.]

I'm German and work as a dermatologist, strange collection of folks here, eh? :P

[Reinhard H.]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 21 2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 04:51 PM
I agree that many Japanese Americans were mistreated in WW2, but on the other hand it was a world war, not some tea party, so I think in some way internment was also a justified security measure. Of course their property should have been returned after the war and those found innocent should have received some compensation (as they did), but I think several thousand Japanese Americans actually renounced their American citizenship at the outbreak of WW2, so clearly there were reasons to be concerned some of these people would form a "fifth column" in the case of an attempted Japanese invasion of the American mainland. I don't want to justify internment the way it took place, but it's also naive to assume that all these Japanese Americans were loyal to the US. In the case of the German Americans it would not have been physically possible to intern all of them, but German Americans when they fought as soldiers for the US were only allowed to fight on the pacific front, as some Japanese Americans also fought in Europe.


It WOULD be naive to believe ALL Japanese Americans were loyal, but I still think xenophobia, perhaps racism, figured into interning ALL of them. Some Japanese Americans also renounced their citizenship while in internment, which doesn't seem so unreasonable. I wouldn't choose to serve a country that locked me up based solely on suspicion, either. I am not sure if several thousand Japanese Americans renounced their citizenship before the war, or right after Pearl Harbor, but I can't argue with you on that since I don't know. B)

I don't think the Japanese American mass internment was a reasonable security measure. I understand WHY it was done, I just feel it was wrong to do it. And that it should never be done again.


If German Americans were only allowed to fight on the Pacific front, then how could Eisenhower have been commander of the allied forces in Europe, and as you just alluded to previously, he is a German American? Eisenhower's father was the first person who insisted in speaking English rather than German at home. I am not sure about everything else, but given the large #'s of German Americans, perhaps only first or second generation German Americans were not allowed to fight in Europe, although I have never heard of this before. If it's true, then thanks for the info.
I'm no expert on the topic, I only know some older German Americans personally and the guy had to fight in the pacific war, because of his heritage. I also don't want to act like the Germans were the great victims of WW2, clearly what they suffered was a consequence of earlier German policies, even though these individuals who were interned played no decisive role in formulating German war policies.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Reinhard H.@Oct 21 2002, 09:12 AM
I'm German and work as a dermatologist, strange collection of folks here, eh? :P
German-American or German? Yeah. We might disagree about 99% of the time both past and future, but I'm not going to ignore the 1% that will pop up from time to time.

Salute.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 21 2002, 04:37 PM
well actually no asian american group went through this because there's no point to it.
well, just cuz there's no point to it doesn't mean some people didn't do it anyway. Why else do I meet so many Chinese people with surnames like "Locke" or "John." why else do koreans keep spelling names which are phonetically "Yi, Gim, Bak" as "Lee, Kim, Park." looks less alien. Similarly in Indonesia, in the 70s Chinese people were "strongly encouraged" to take Indonesian names by the government (local officials usually interpreted that as giving them power to reject Chinese people trying to register for an identity card under a romanized Chinese name), despite that we're still visually dissimilable.