I am Womyn hear me roar!

[artsfartsyjanet]

I purposely spelled women -- > womyn to eliminate the word "men" in it. Before you think I hate men (which I don't)....

Do you think the standard in society is male-oriented? Do you think that women are just a deviation from men, that women can not be autonomous from men? Think about your text books, religion, the frequency of slang used to describe women in a derogatory fashion as opposed to men, the strong association between women and children (e.g. "women and children" first), and language (e.g. HIStory, policeMEN, "Men at work" signs on the highway, fireMEN, and notable quotations such as "One small step for men, one giant leap for MANkind." Though mankind or man can refer to men and women, do you think that this kind of usage can be pervasive in the way women choose their careers? Do you think these factors confine women into traditional careers such as secretaries, teachers, and desk clerks rather than doctors, lawyers, or engineers? Do you think these factors (as subtle as they seem) has had some influence in the way you choose to lead your life?



<!--EDIT|artsfartsyjanet|Oct 16 2002, 09:24 PM-->

[angel nympho]

I know a lot of people who are offended by all that, but I don't let it bother me, too much. There's an awful lot of good things that come out of being a woman.

Oh yeah, and to add to your list: HERpies, instead of HISpies. :P

[amietron]

it doesn't confine women to certain jobs. kasia and barbs are lawyers, aren't they? =)

[Craig]

I don't see any roadblocks to women being engineers, except their own choice that they don't want to go into such fields.

[karizma]

>> i am aware of all these signs and words that have the word "man" incorporated into it...but it doesnt really bug me...to me its just another combination of letters in the alphabet...im not really interested in any careers dominated by men...except maybe engineering =) that looks fun. but anyways...some womyn read too much into these kinds of things =/...if i had any intention of becoming a doctor or lawyer i definitely wouldnt hesistate.

[artsfartsyjanet]

What do you think contributes to the disproportionate ratio between men and women (excluding skin color for the moment) in executive positions (e.g. CEOs, political leaders, etc....)? After all, the number of men and women living in the United States is fairly equal (if not, maybe more women). In addition to the words we read, how about what was taught when you were young. What kind of things do you find as a child your parents intentionally or unintentionally taught or give you? In the United States, and excluding the whole model minority myth for a second, there's this stereotype that women are worse in math than their male counterparts. Do you believe there is a biological or evolutionary basis supporting this stereotype? If so, how legitimate do you think are these findings? Sure Kasia and Barbs are lawyers, and I'm sure very good in their profession, but they only account for the small percentage of lawyers who are women. Perhaps Kasia and Barbs has stats on the number of women in the profession, but I think it's still quite predominant that a significant number of males are in the profession than their female counterparts.

Of course we see these words (e.g. policemen, "Men at Work" signs) so much that we overlook or are desensitized by their influence. Although some people don't let it bother them, should it be a continued practice or a standard to you? After all, feMALES exist in construction, the police force, and other male dominated professions.



<!--EDIT|artsfartsyjanet|Oct 16 2002, 11:26 PM-->

[Craig]

Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 17 2002, 04:18 AM
In the United States, and excluding the whole model minority myth for a second, there's this stereotype that women are worse in math than their male counterparts. Do you believe there is a biological or evolutionary basis supporting this stereotype? If so, how legitimate do you think are these findings?
I think in general both men and women are bad at math. I don't believe the stereotype, I think it has to do with the individual. Any differences between the sexes in this regard are probably more related to how the different genders are socialized as children.

On another note, most engineers and scientists don't use math very often after school. Typically, at a hard school in most of these fields they'll be required to take maybe half a dozen math classes at most; The rest (from a mathematical perspective) is mainly applying the stuff they already learned to science.

Also, what most people think of as math, isn't remotely close to what mathematicians deal with.

[Arex]

Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 16 2002, 09:18 PM
What do you think contributes to the disproportionate ratio between men and women (excluding skin color for the moment) in executive positions (e.g. CEOs, political leaders, etc....)?
I think the lack of women in executive positions and other positions of power has everything to do with the persistence of the old boys club and little or nothing to do with our language. It's human nature for people to look out for their "own." And, like it or not, this country has a long history of white, male dominance. Even though women have technically been "equals" for quite some time now, it's going to be a slow process before women are truly viewed as equals by everyone.

Alex

[SunWuKong]

i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 12:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I don't like it. =) Why not give it a name that's more neutral like Balance, Guppie, or Vitaminregimen... I don't know. bad examples. =) Lady Liberty, Lady Luck, .... perhaps they're just harmless names on objects. I'm sure people name their boats after men's names.... I think. Anyway, I think it depends on the intention and the behavior. My psychology of oppression class raised an important question on Tuesday. Is it possible for a sexist to do non-sexist things, and is it possible for non-sexists to be sexist? What is your take?



<!--EDIT|artsfartsyjanet|Oct 17 2002, 02:17 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 17 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 12:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I don't like it. =) Why not give it a name that's more neutral like Balance, Guppie, or Vitaminregimen... I don't know. bad examples. =) Lady Liberty, Lady Luck, .... perhaps they're just harmless names on objects. I'm sure people name their boats after men's names.... I think. Anyway, I think it depends on the intention and the behavior. My psychology of oppression class raised an important question on Tuesday. Is it possible for a sexist to do non-sexist things, and is it possible for non-sexists to be sexist? What is your take?
well i think there are negative and positive examples. naming a boat with a female name is actually a tradition that came about in much the same reason that "Luck" is a lady - it is unconstant. :)

but certain qualities that are nurturing and protective also has feminine conotations to them in society - like the Statue of Liberty.

[amietron]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 17 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 12:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I don't like it. =) Why not give it a name that's more neutral like Balance, Guppie, or Vitaminregimen... I don't know. bad examples. =) Lady Liberty, Lady Luck, .... perhaps they're just harmless names on objects. I'm sure people name their boats after men's names.... I think. Anyway, I think it depends on the intention and the behavior. My psychology of oppression class raised an important question on Tuesday. Is it possible for a sexist to do non-sexist things, and is it possible for non-sexists to be sexist? What is your take?
well i think there are negative and positive examples. naming a boat with a female name is actually a tradition that came about in much the same reason that "Luck" is a lady - it is unconstant. :)

but certain qualities that are nurturing and protective also has feminine conotations to them in society - like the Statue of Liberty.
so i'm assuming the same goes for guitars?

[amietron]

Originally posted by artsfartsyjanet@Oct 16 2002, 08:18 PM
What do you think contributes to the disproportionate ratio between men and women (excluding skin color for the moment) in executive positions (e.g. CEOs, political leaders, etc....)? After all, the number of men and women living in the United States is fairly equal (if not, maybe more women). In addition to the words we read, how about what was taught when you were young. What kind of things do you find as a child your parents intentionally or unintentionally taught or give you? In the United States, and excluding the whole model minority myth for a second, there's this stereotype that women are worse in math than their male counterparts. Do you believe there is a biological or evolutionary basis supporting this stereotype? If so, how legitimate do you think are these findings? Sure Kasia and Barbs are lawyers, and I'm sure very good in their profession, but they only account for the small percentage of lawyers who are women. Perhaps Kasia and Barbs has stats on the number of women in the profession, but I think it's still quite predominant that a significant number of males are in the profession than their female counterparts.

Of course we see these words (e.g. policemen, "Men at Work" signs) so much that we overlook or are desensitized by their influence. Although some people don't let it bother them, should it be a continued practice or a standard to you? After all, feMALES exist in construction, the police force, and other male dominated professions.
i think a lot of it has to do with kids and family. once you do your share of time in the business world, you realize that your family is more important and that you'd rather be with the kids than at work. there's a woman who used to be one of the most powerful in the business world who resigned or retired a few years ago to spend more time with her family. she's just an example, if you will.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by amietron@Oct 17 2002, 05:41 PM

i think a lot of it has to do with kids and family. once you do your share of time in the business world, you realize that your family is more important and that you'd rather be with the kids than at work. there's a woman who used to be one of the most powerful in the business world who resigned or retired a few years ago to spend more time with her family. she's just an example, if you will.
I always think family is just as important as work... there just needs to be a balance. I honestly can't see myself with kids anyway. I like to think of work as play-- not something I have to prioritize over kids. So, if i had kids, I'd want to work and find time with my children and husband. Where do kids come in? Not anywhere close. hehe....

[mrazntre]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 17 2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.
I beg to differ.


I believe it is done so in the name of sexual objectivity.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by mrazntre@Oct 18 2002, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 17 2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.
I beg to differ.


I believe it is done so in the name of sexual objectivity.
I tend to agree with you on this account. :)

[amietron]

men love their cars. and they love their women, too.

she being Brand

-new; and you
know consequently a
little stiff i was
careful of her and (having

thoroughly oiled the universal
joint tested my gas felt of
her radiator made sure her springs were O.

K.) i went right to it flooded-the-carberator cranked her

up, slipped the
clutch (and then somehow got into reverse she
kicked what
the hell) next
minute i was back in neutral tried and

again slo-wly; bare,ly nudg. &nbsp; &nbsp; ing (my

lev-er &nbsp;Right-
oh and her gears being in
A 1 shape passed from low through
second-in-to-high like
greasedlightning) just as we turned the corner of Divinity

avenue i touched the accelerator and give
her the juice, good

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(it
wsa the first ride and believe i we was
happy to see how nice she acted right up to
the last minute coming back down by the Public
Gardens i slammed on
the

internalexpanding
&
externalcontracting
brakes Bothatonce and

brought allofher tremB
-ling
&nbsp; to a: dead.
&nbsp;
stand-
;Still)

she being brand new, ee cummings

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by amietron@Oct 18 2002, 10:45 AM
men love their cars. and they love their women, too.
i love certain women. but i don't love cars. some look really cool, but i'm very practical when it comes to cars. i just need it to get me around and i want it to be easy to maintain. that is all. i'm not really into sports either, even though i played them in highschool.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by mrazntre@Oct 18 2002, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 17 2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.
I beg to differ.


I believe it is done so in the name of sexual objectivity.
Oh. Well, I don't see it that way. I see no problem with naming something after a female. Heck, if you wanted to, you could name it after a male, too.

How is it in the name of sexual objectivity, really? I mean, if we're talking about a boat or something. If you name your boat after a woman, are you insinuating that you find the boat sexually arousing? I am so confused. :confused:

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 18 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by mrazntre@Oct 18 2002, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 17 2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.
I beg to differ.


I believe it is done so in the name of sexual objectivity.
Oh. Well, I don't see it that way. I see no problem with naming something after a female. Heck, if you wanted to, you could name it after a male, too.

How is it in the name of sexual objectivity, really? I mean, if we're talking about a boat or something. If you name your boat after a woman, are you insinuating that you find the boat sexually arousing? I am so confused. :confused:
Haven't you seen the "man loves his car" thread posted by ren28? Some guys find their cars mad seggsy, that they have this uncontrollable urge to plug it, apparently.

[thaite]

If y'all wanna post some wavs or .mp3s of you roaring, I'd be glad to listen. The guys could judge.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 18 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by mrazntre@Oct 18 2002, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 17 2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 17 2002, 05:06 PM
i'm interested to know what you womyn think about things like giving boats female names, or "Lady Luck", or the fact that the statue of Liberty is a female figure, etc etc.
I like it.

Men name things they love after women.
I beg to differ.


I believe it is done so in the name of sexual objectivity.
Oh. Well, I don't see it that way. I see no problem with naming something after a female. Heck, if you wanted to, you could name it after a male, too.

How is it in the name of sexual objectivity, really? I mean, if we're talking about a boat or something. If you name your boat after a woman, are you insinuating that you find the boat sexually arousing? I am so confused. :confused:
actually the boat thing comes from the fact that it used to be very dangerous to go out to sea. boats are named with women's names because they are inconstant, you could be killed easily while out at sea, or it could have been a completely calm trip. the same with "luck" being a lady. it could be cruel or it could be beneficial - you never know.

anyway, i think there are both negative and positive examples of naming objects with female names or assigning feminine attributes to certain concepts.

[thaite]

And Niccolo Machiavelli (one of my faves) wrote "..fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her."

And that's how you do it. :P

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by buoywonder@Oct 18 2002, 07:40 PM
And Niccolo Machiavelli (one of my faves) wrote "..fortune is a woman, and if you wish to keep her under it is necessary to beat and ill-use her; and it is seen that she allows herself to be mastered by the adventurous rather than by those who go to work more coldly. She is, therefore, always, woman-like, a lover of young men, because they are less cautious, more violent, and with more audacity command her."

And that's how you do it. :P
oh shit hahhah i feel kind of ashame for finding that funny...

[artsfartsyjanet]

Here's a "test" indicating the existence of our conscience.