Far east stability?

[Lt.Foo]

I do not understand why the issue is being closed. This is not an issue of wether Japan is being bad or not but an issue of surmounting tension in the region with North Korea, South Korea, China, Japan and Taiwan.

North Korea: Obviously the Nuclear issue as well as the statement issued by NK in regards to the port visit of the USS Kitty Hawk.
http://www.yonhapnews.net/Engnews/20050315/300200000020050315223841E8.html

China and Taiwan: China making it a law to invade if Taiwan secedes officially from China. Russia backs this law...scary

South Korea and Japan: Text book and Island issues. There was a formal denounciation from the Japanese teachers union. Thank god.
Issue with the island. That island has been occupied by the koreans even before the turn of the century. Why is the Japanese Govt. being so hawkish now.

[SunWuKong]

I do not understand why the issue is being closed.


the threads were closed because there has been an excessive number of threads talking about the wrongs of Japan or the Japanese government. i don't care if people make disclaimers that they're not against Japanese people or Japanese Americans, there are a little too many of those kinds of threads lately. secondly those threads were degrading into bickering.

i will keep this thread opened if the discussion is on stability in East Asia in general and not another thread denouncing Japan - i'm not saying the issues involved do not deserve discussion, i'm only saying give it a rest for now.

keep civil to each other and try not to take comments too personally and this thread will stay opened.

[yoMAMA]

IMHO, there may be a lot of saber rattling, nationalistic legislations...etc.

But there are just too much economic stake in the Asia pacific region for all those countries involved to do stupid things when push comes to shove, such as China invading Taiwan or Japan and South Korea clashing militarily.

I don't think the Chinese leadership would want to jeopardize the export and foreign investment [which includes the more than 100$ billion Taiwanese investors has contributed] driven economic boom they have right now.

The only loose canon is north korea...and who knows what Kim Jung II will do...he's a madman.

[Jung Rhee]

Thank you Lt Foo, you are right, the post was not meant to be about "Japan is bad." It is not about being good or bad at all. It is about what is going on. This event is like the Taiwan and China conflicts, it is an ongoing event. And it is about the truth of the matter in different perspectives and points of views. To be honest, I don't hate Japanese, I enjoy the exchanging of ideas amongst ethnically Korean, Chinese and Japanese commenters in here whether they agree with me or not. We are all individuals, I don't necessarily agree with a person just because he/she is a Korean.

[SunWuKong]

Thank you Lt Foo, you are right, the post was not meant to be about "Japan is bad." It is not about being good or bad at all. It is about what is going on. This event is like the Taiwan and China conflicts, it is an ongoing event. And it is about the truth of the matter in different perspectives and points of views.

no offense, but i have a difficult time truly believing in that because you did not once start a thread with an article that was written from the Japanese point of view in how they think they may be right.

[Jung Rhee]

no offense, but i have a difficult time truly believing in that because you did not once start a thread with an article that was written from the Japanese point of view in how they think they may be right.

Actually, I just started to search Japanese news today and see what they are saying. I went to thejapanesenews.net. Anyone can recommend any Japanese news/newspaper website??? Please feel free to link them here. I would like to read what they say about this conflict also.

[yoMAMA]

www.japantimes.com

[Jung Rhee]

yomama you are so quick thank you!

[yoMAMA]

yomama you are so quick thank you!

no problem.

:wink:

[Lt.Foo]

I actually went to Japantimes and Mainichi daily and could not find an article on the text book but the only thing was the visitation of Korean political leaders on the disputed island.
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050315p2a00m0dm011000c.html

[SunWuKong]

ok, well thanks for staying civil so far and being patient with the administration instead of blowing up like many members in the past have when their threads are closed.

i still think there has been an excessive number of threads about the wrongs of the Japanese government though, so if that is to be discussed, keep it in this one thread for now. we don't need multiple threads rehashing basically the same thing.

[yoMAMA]

Japan: debating the right to fight.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1438238,00.html

[YuheiCarreau]

Issue with the island. That island has been occupied by the koreans even before the turn of the century. Why is the Japanese Govt. being so hawkish now.

The Japanese government isn't being militaristic or agressive. Please point out to me a recent statement by the Japanese government that is MORE hawkish than recent statements by the S Korean, N Korean, or Chinese governments. Japan is the ONLY nation in the area not engaged in a serious military standoff with a neighbor, the ONLY nation that is not actively plotting an invasion or preparing to defend against one - why, then, do you say that the Japanese are being hawkish?

[yoMAMA]

I think Koizumi is playing the classic nationalism card, probably for the next election.

His reform has not really delivered much [the recent economic recovery can be much traced to trade with China, which drove the manufacture sectors to record profits, which in turn helped the banking sector with their non performaning loans].

Koizumi needs to go.

The Japanese government isn't being militaristic or agressive. Please point out to me a recent statement by the Japanese government that is MORE hawkish than recent statements by the S Korean, N Korean, or Chinese governments. Japan is the ONLY nation in the area not engaged in a serious military standoff with a neighbor, the ONLY nation that is not actively plotting an invasion or preparing to defend against one - why, then, do you say that the Japanese are being hawkish?

I'm not sure if Japan is becoming "militaristic", but some of the recent actions are certainly inflammatory, such as the revised textbook that whitewashes WW2 atrocities, the island disputes with China and South Korea, and the visit to the Yasukuni shrine.

However, I think this is exactly what the U.S had in mind: let the Asians fight eachother, and we will stand to gain when they are all wounded or weakened.

They don't want another EU, in the form of asian alliances.

[SunWuKong]

I'm not sure if Japan is becoming "militaristic", but some of the recent actions are certainly inflammatory, such as the revised textbook that whitewashes WW2 atrocities, the island disputes with China and South Korea, and the visit to the Yasukuni shrine.

to be honest, as far as the island disputes are concerned, you can't really say one side is being more inflammatory than the other side. i mean that's why those islands are in dispute.

or maybe i just don't know enough about the histories of those islands. (meaning both Dokdo/Takshima and Diaoyudao/Senkaku)

[Lt.Foo]

The Japanese government isn't being militaristic or agressive. Please point out to me a recent statement by the Japanese government that is MORE hawkish than recent statements by the S Korean, N Korean, or Chinese governments. Japan is the ONLY nation in the area not engaged in a serious military standoff with a neighbor, the ONLY nation that is not actively plotting an invasion or preparing to defend against one - why, then, do you say that the Japanese are being hawkish?

Japan doesn't have a stand off with other nation? umm What about North Korea. I think they sank a North Korean spy ship recently didn't they? At least within the last year or so.

Shimane appears set to pass bill designating 'Takeshima Day' in face of Korean protests

By Lee Joo-hee and Shin Hae-in

Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said yesterday the government will take visible measures against provocative Japanese moves as Shimane Prefecuture moved toward scheduled approval today of designating a "Takeshima Day" despite vehement opposition from Korea.

"Aside from maintaining the friendly relations between Korea and Japan, (the government) will take measures in order for Japan to have an accurate perspective on sovereignty and past history in regard to Dokdo and history textbook," government spokesman Joung Soon-kyun quoted Ban as saying during the weekly Cabinet meeting.

Shimane is set to pass a measure today declaring Feb. 22 as "Takeshima Day" despite the Seoul government's repeated behind-the-scene attempts to halt the move to claim Japanese sovereignty of the Dokdo islands in the East Sea. The Japanese refer to Dokdo as Takeshima.

Anti-Japan rallies again roiled Seoul yesterday, with civic groups and coalitions condemning the Japanese government's "distortion of history."

A students' group burned a scarecrow in front of the Japanese Embassy in central Seoul and guided into the building more 30 paper-folded planes with letters calling for a halt of history distortion.

Members of civic groups for preserving Dokdo held a news conference demanding the deportation of the Japanese Ambassador to Korea Toshiyuki Takano. The ambassador is now in Tokyo briefing officials on the feelings of Koreans.

The Shimane approval is likely to add fuel to the brewing diplomatic row between the two countries that also involve the recent disclosure of the contents of a new history textbook that allegedly rationalizes Japan's 1910-45 colonization of Korea.

"(The government) has relayed to its Japanese counterpart that the contents of the history textbook should not carry worse distortions than the one released four years ago," Ban was quoted as saying.

Japan's Education Ministry is reviewing the new textbook, which is alleged to contain chapters that rationalize Japan's invasion to Korea and is to be used by secondary schools from next year.

A pan-government taskforce, headed by Vice Education Minister Kim Young-sik, held its first session yesterday, and decided to meet every Wednesday for the rest of this month to discuss details of future measures against Japan's moves.

The 16-member team, comprising senior officials from the presidential office, foreign, defense and education ministries, said the government will devise countermeasures with historians and civic groups to discourage Japanese schools from choosing the textbook in question.

In regard to Dokdo, the government refrained from disclosing any specific action plans but sources said the government may adopt several measures to signify Korea's sovereignty of the islets such as by alleviating public entrance restrictions to the islands currently designated as nature protection area.

The political parties also agreed to form a special countermeasures team to deal with the intensifying diplomatic row with Japan.

Ruling Uri Party floor leader Chung Sye-kyun met his Grand National Party counterpart Kang Jae-sup and agreed to set up a joint taskforce team against Japan's claim to Dokdo and the possible approval of the distorted textbook.

"Since the problems between Korea and Japan are becoming increasingly complicated, the National Assembly must collaborate to act against (Japan's moves)," Uri's Chung said.

Details of the team will be discussed soon between vice-floor leaders.

A group of lawmakers from the ruling and opposition parties plans to visit Dokdo in a symbolic action to protest the Japanese claim of sovereignty over the small islets, which have long been under the effective control of South Korea.

The five-member group of lawmakers said they will take a one-day trip to Dokdo tomorrow by police helicopter.

"Out goal is to publicize our protests internationally and to prompt Japan not to pass the 'Takeshima Day' bill," said Rep. Kang Chang-il of the ruling Uri Party. "We will read out our statement on the island and encourage the guards there."

The five include Rep. Go Jin-hwa of the main opposition Grand National Party and Rep. Lee Young-soon of the minor Democratic Labor Party.

In a separate move, a Korean group of anti-Japanese activists left for Japan yesterday to protest the Japanese prefecture's move for a Takeshima Day. Called "Ardent lovers of Dokdo," the group said it will visit the Shimane Prefecture today to protest the regional council's move.

"Historically and legally, Dokdo belongs to us. We plan to notify the wrongfulness of the bill to Japan and suggest discussions on the issue to the Shimane Prefecture councilors," said Choi Jae-ik, a member of the Seoul City Council and the leader of the protest group.

"And if the Japanese council pushes ahead with the Takeshima Day bill, we will stage a series of protest rallies in Japan," he added.

More than 900 people belong to the civic group and about 200 activist members registered themselves as Dokdo residents in 2000 as a means of gaining clearer possession over the islets.

Dokdo lies halfway between the Korean Peninsula and Japan, and Korea has maintained a small maritime police detachment on the islets as a symbol of its ownership since 1954.

The history of Dokdo has to be studied in relation to Ullungdo. Usan of Ullungdo was estimated to be established by native wanderers. It was returned to Shilla after 6C A.D.

The name Ullungdo was established and the name Usan was transferred to the attached island, Dokdo. In Kangwondo Uljinhyunjo, a map compiled in 1432, it is recorded that, "two islands, Usan and Mureung, are in the center of Jungdong Sea in Uljin-hyun". This makes it clear that there are two islands named Mureung and Usan in the East Sea.

In 1694, Jang Hansang, an official of Samcheok, published a book with records of the discovery of an island a third of the size of Ullungdo about 730 miles from Ullungdo. The Japanese claim that Ullung and Usan both refer to Ullungdo, but Korea already knew of Ullungdo and Dokdo in the 17th century. The precise location of Ullungdo and Usando are shown in the < Dongkuk Geography > by Jung Sangik in the 18th century.In maps from the end of the Chosun Period, Usando is always shown next to Ullungdo.

Fishing by the Japanese became frequent near Ullungdo and Dokdo during the Chosun Period. Ahn Yongbok went to Japan and confirmed that Dokdo was Korean territory and prohibited Japanese fishermen from fishing near Dokdo. .

In 1900, Dokdo which was part of Uljin-hyun, was officially incorporated into Kangwondo as an attached island of Ullung-kun according to royal decree no. 41 by King Kojong. This is 5 years earlier than Japan's claim to have incorporated Dokdo to Shimane in 1905. This fact is an important discovery that can overturn Japanese claims for territorial rights of Dokdo. The name 'Dokdo' was first used by Shim Heungtaek, county chief of Ullung-kun, in 1906. Dokdo was incorporated into Kyeongsangbuk-do in 1914 with reorganization of administrative areas.

[YuheiCarreau]

Japan doesn't have a stand off with other nation? umm What about North Korea. I think they sank a North Korean spy ship recently didn't they? At least within the last year or so.

Shimane appears set to pass bill designating 'Takeshima Day' in face of Korean protests.

...


First of all, Shimane prefecture is NOT a player in Japan's international policies. Find me an example that involves the PM or the parliament making militaristic declarations that are equal to or greater than those made by some of Japan's neighbors. The Japanese may not hold other Asian nations in high regard, but there is no way in hell that you can say they're more militaristic than them.

Yes, Japan has had a few run-ins with NK, and there was that recent incident with the spy sub that the Japanese claim was a Chinese vessel. But none of these incidents involve the Japanese military making incursions into foreign territories; in fact, both the spy sub and the example you gave are incidents in which Japan defended itself against a foreign incursion. While Japan considers NK a threat, the tension between the two Koreas is far greater - and any outbreak of fighting in the region is far more likely to occur along the 38th parallel. Is it Japan or North Korea tha's been shooting missiles over other countries? Is it Japan or China that has overtly signaled its intention to reabsorb a "rogue province"?

Face facts: Japan is one of the most politically stable, least militaristic nation in the area. I'm not saying that the Japanese government treats all its citizens in a fair and equal way, or that there aren't a lot of mistakes in Japan's recent past that still need to be addressed, but it is sheer folly to suggest that Japan is more agressive towards its neighbors. Who gives out more in foreign aid, South Korea or Japan? Who threatens its neighbors more often, China or Japan? Who, therefor, has shown a greater interest in peace and stability in the region?

[Lt.Foo]

Face facts: Japan is one of the most politically stable, least militaristic nation in the area. I'm not saying that the Japanese government treats all its citizens in a fair and equal way, or that there aren't a lot of mistakes in Japan's recent past that still need to be addressed, but it is sheer folly to suggest that Japan is more agressive towards its neighbors. Who gives out more in foreign aid, South Korea or Japan? Who threatens its neighbors more often, China or Japan? Who, therefor, has shown a greater interest in peace and stability in the region?


I am not trying to argue this point. How many prime ministers did Japan have in the last 10 years? But that is not the point. The probability of North and South Korea going into conflict is very small. South Korea is opening up more to NK imports. They are planning to import 200 tons of pork from NK. The South Korean govt. is trying to stablize relations even more so. But why do you bring up aid. Does it mean that the more money you put out the Better. I don't think the present US admiinistration is good Just because the government gives out the most amount of Aid in the world?

But the whole point of it is, why is Shimane declaring claim over the island and the Japanese govt not trying to diplomatically ease the tension.

TOKYO — Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Tuesday that an "emotional conflict" has erupted with South Korea and called for a "level-headed and cautious" response after directly hearing about the situation from his envoy to Seoul.

"We discussed that it has become a very emotional conflict so we should deal with it in a level-headed and cautious manner, keeping in mind the basic tone of friendship between Japan and South Korea," Koizumi told reporters at his office.

Is this all he has to say?

South Korea is not aggressively pursuing instability in the region. I think it is time for a Far East summit to hash out problem topics in the region without outside intervention. Possibly a UN envoy.

I do not wish to touch upon this topic anymore but bring discussion to the bigger picture of the Far East region. As mentioned in the pevious post, I feel that it is time for a Far East Summit without the intervention of the United States as they have tried with North Korea. It is time for China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan to discuss Far east security and stability for the region and bring North Korea in a future summit. Economically, The region is undeniably strong with the combined assets of the 4 nations. Though I do not see an EU anytime soon, free trade pacts is a reality to bring upon a much more stable economy and political climate.

It is time to discuss and resolve the past and move forward for a stronger and stable nation.

[SunWuKong]

Who gives out more in foreign aid, South Korea or Japan?


sorry to nitpick here, but the raw amount of foreign aid is not exactly a good measure of how generous a country is. Japan's 2003 estimated GDP is a little over four times that of South Korea's.

who really gives more money? the poor man that gives $10 or the rich man that gives $100?

[imturok]

The Japanese government isn't being militaristic or agressive. Please point out to me a recent statement by the Japanese government that is MORE hawkish than recent statements by the S Korean, N Korean, or Chinese governments.
I would like to know when the Chinese government made any hawkish statements recently.
Far east in-stability is created by George Bush and his neocons, this is their next frontier after the middle east. Japan is siding with US partly because it is their best interest to do so. (I do not want to mention the other part because I may offend some people)

[SunWuKong]

I would like to know when the Chinese government made any hawkish statements recently.

err... they do it all the time with the Taiwan issue.

everytime Chinese leaders meet with foreign leaders, they ask the foreign leaders to reassert the One China policy.

[YuheiCarreau]

I am not trying to argue this point. How many prime ministers did Japan have in the last 10 years? But that is not the point. The probability of North and South Korea going into conflict is very small. South Korea is opening up more to NK imports. They are planning to import 200 tons of pork from NK. The South Korean govt. is trying to stablize relations even more so. But why do you bring up aid. Does it mean that the more money you put out the Better. I don't think the present US admiinistration is good Just because the government gives out the most amount of Aid in the world?

But the whole point of it is, why is Shimane declaring claim over the island and the Japanese govt not trying to diplomatically ease the tension.

As I said earlier, the Japanese don't put the feelings of people in a foreign country above their own interests. This doesn't really differentiate them from any other nation, and it certainly isn't evidence that Japan is more hawkish than its neighbors.

Shimane prefecture declaring a "Takeshima Day" is like Americans dumping French wine in the sewers and serving "freedom fries". It's disrespectful, but it's not an indication that a war is on the horizon. You used the word hawkish to describe the Japanese government, yet you have no evidence to support this description.

TOKYO — Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Tuesday that an "emotional conflict" has erupted with South Korea and called for a "level-headed and cautious" response after directly hearing about the situation from his envoy to Seoul.

"We discussed that it has become a very emotional conflict so we should deal with it in a level-headed and cautious manner, keeping in mind the basic tone of friendship between Japan and South Korea," Koizumi told reporters at his office.

Is this all he has to say?

Oooooh. Them's fightin' words! Seriously, how does that statement come across as warmongering and agressive to you?

There's plenty of valid reason to criticize Koizumi and the Japanese government. This isn't one of them.


sorry to nitpick here, but the raw amount of foreign aid is not exactly a good measure of how generous a country is. Japan's 2003 estimated GDP is a little over four times that of South Korea's.

who really gives more money? the poor man that gives $10 or the rich man that gives $100?

According to the CIA World Factbook, SK donates $200 million a year - compared to Japan's $7 billion. It also states that Japan's GDP purchasing power parity is more like 4 times that of South Korea ($3.582 trillion and $857.8 billion) - although the GDP per capita isn't nearly as lopsided ($28,200 and $17,800) :confused:

[imturok]

err... they do it all the time with the Taiwan issue.

everytime Chinese leaders meet with foreign leaders, they ask the foreign leaders to reassert the One China policy.

As far as China is concerned, the Taiwan issue is a domestic problem. One may be strict with one's compatriots. I would not call it hawkish.

[SunWuKong]

As far as China is concerned, the Taiwan issue is a domestic problem. One may be strict with one's compatriots. I would not call it hawkish.

well what is defined as "hawkish" then?

[YuheiCarreau]

As far as China is concerned, the Taiwan issue is a domestic problem. One may be strict with one's compatriots. I would not call it hawkish.

By that logic, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh are all fun-loving peaceful nations, since the half dozen wars and major skirmishesthey've fought in the last 50 years have all been with "compatriots"... Furthermore, I don't think you can call it a "domestic problem" when there are clearly two goverments claiming the right to rule Taiwan.

well what is defined as "hawkish" then?

One hallmark of an oppressive regime is the strict control over public discourse and the flow of information. I'd say that China's restrictive internet firewall and the dominance of state-controlled media outlets is a good example of unecessary policing. On the one hand, this is not necessarily a sign that they are agressive towards other nations, but on the other hand if they treat their own citizens like criminals...

[imturok]

By that logic, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh are all fun-loving peaceful nations, since the half dozen wars and major skirmishesthey've fought in the last 50 years have all been with "compatriots"... Furthermore, I don't think you can call it a "domestic problem" when there are clearly two goverments claiming the right to rule Taiwan.
...
Pakistan, India and Bangladesh used to be one country with multiple cultures. Instead of living together and accepting each other's differences as part of their own, they ended spliting up into different countries.
China do not want to see this happen. Has there ever been secession with the blessing of the head of any country?

[Lt.Foo]

I think we are going overboard again. In regards to the statements from the PM of Japan, the fact that there is little regards to the minor scuffle that is going on i couldn't believe that he made such a minor comment. mmm sounds like Bush...oops. no no just giving you a rib.
But the whole issue is politicians will be politicians, but I still do not believe the Japanese govt. recognizes the past. I am not only bringing this up because I do not feel it has been resolved between Japan and Koreas and China.

Japan's GDP, you have to remember that Japan started economic growth right after WWII(with the aid of the USA) and Korea after they finally "democratized". Therefore Japan has about almost 30 years ahead of Korea. Korea has finally started to kick in economically the last 10 years.

As you can see China has finally kicked in the last 3-4 years when they relaxed economic growth. To be honest I think they have to slow down before the bubble bursts like Japan in the late 80s. I just read Japan is going back into recession.

As i Mentioned before, the far east nations should resolve this and unite as one to compete with the US so there is balance in world economics.

I hate to say this but the basis of animosity is the lack of recognition by the Japanese govt. of the imperial Japanese forces during occupation and WWII.

This is fact and if anyone wants to argue this I say go to my grandmother who had to see her father being shot in front of her By Japanese troops, even after he died.

I am trying to say is the nations should resolve this once and for all and become a stronger region.

I meant does not recognize the past

[YuheiCarreau]

Pakistan, India and Bangladesh used to be one country with multiple cultures. Instead of living together and accepting each other's differences as part of their own, they ended spliting up into different countries.
China do not want to see this happen. Has there ever been secession with the blessing of the head of any country?

China has already seen this happen. The split happened back in the 40's and it's been like that ever since. Are you ever going to bring more to the table than "Everything China does is good. Everything Japan does is bad."?

[yuuteya]

Mr.SunWuKong, you deserve much credit for keeping this place classy and true to the goal of pan-asian unity. i really admire your resolve to keep YW 'YW' and not let it degenerate into some 'KW' and 'CW' (or even in the unlikely event of a 'JW').. cheers to you SunWuKong and Kimpossible.
China has already seen this happen. The split happened back in the 40's and it's been like that ever since. Are you ever going to bring more to the table than "Everything China does is good. Everything Japan does is bad."?
unfortunately, no they cant, because as we have seen again and again and agains and again..... etc. and again and again...etc...etc.... and again...etc...etc..., in this thread and in various past threads, their tired old discourse is predicated upon a totally nationalist subtext. and because of that undeniable fact, they cannot escape from from their circular pedantic arguements.

at the end of the day its all about the desire to openly express, for everyone to hear, their emotional fixations on a hyper-china and/or hyper-korea being the center of their universe, its a self-ethnic-fixation. it goes without saying that chinese and korean nationalists dont put japan at the center of their universe, if they did that then they would be defecting to the other nationalist side. i figure you shouldnt argue with those nationalists/ethnic- narcisists, they are totally in love and fixated on what they see only within their own narrow mirrors. everybody else, every other country, outside that is not as good looking in their imaginations. and a country like japan, especially japanese history, becomes very ugly.

the one dude, if you read his past posts, he is really proud of the center kingdom, in love with the golden grandeur of china, the magnificence and glory of chinese civilizations that will shine as a beakon for the future magnificence of east asias golden future under chinese hegemony, blah blah blah..... classic nationalist example. very two dimensional and cartoonish.

and as for the guy with the holy mission, based on the hints he drops about his past, its obvious its all about his emotional attatchment to some memory of murdered relatives, and how he feels he has to bring the usual war/bad-japan/history-whitewashed issues up to somehow make the present japanese generation face up to their respnsibility for past crimes, perhaps as a way to keep his commitment to his murdered family, etc...anyway hes a bit of a case. its sad that those horrible things happened in the past, but for him to make it a self-appointed crusade to make present generations of japanese listen to his nationalist discourse masking as therapy... well, its frankly disturbing, and in a way is a form of subtle retribution/revenge for the death of his realtives. the ones who will have to endure his self righteousness are the young japanese who never had any connection to it, other than an ethnic one. and in that sense it flows into the realm of ethnic based discrimination..

and as for japanese/japanese-descended people, we can ignore it, like im going to do from now on (if i can?), or comment on it as others are doing now.
but at the end of the day, i wonder if a japanese person who keeps making comments against these chinese/korean nationalists, that japanese person also dangerously plays with discourses that have the potential to become nationalistic.. in my own analysis of my own posts, and my own discourses, i have discovered that a nationalist subtext has slowly began to coalesce in sinking to their nationalistic level.... so you see thats the danger with engaging with chinese/korean nationalists... you also have the risk of becoming complicit in japanese nationalism... and for that, it HATE you dispicable nationlists!!! you are so in love with a bunch of remote islands that, at the end of the day when all is said and done, you dont really care about them and will never visit them in your life. you pathetic nationlists all should be mass dumped on those islands, isolated, and finish each other off (read lord of the flies!) as a bunch of stupid idiots with archaic and dangerous ideas that if left to fetter uncontroled will threaten the unity and peace of all asians. to hell with ethnicity obsessed nationalists!

ASIAN UNITY & PEACE

[SunWuKong]

yuuteya, thanks for the compliment, but please stick to the discussion of the issues instead of the people involved in the discussion.

as for the "nationalist" label - in fact almost every Chinese or Korean person i've known would like the Japanese government to sincerely recognise and apologise for its war crimes in WW2.

at any rate, i understand this discussion may be frustrating because there are not many Japanese members here to support your side of the argument, but as i've said before, try not to take it too personally - of course, that goes for people on both sides of the argument.

[deez nuts]

korea needs to come back to china. once the chinese and korean (we'll let them keep the korean label since even though they're really chinese) come together; japan will be quaking in her geisha shoes.

[SunWuKong]

korea needs to come back to china. once the chinese and korean (we'll let them keep the korean label since even though they're really chinese) come together; japan will be quaking in her geisha shoes.

just to clarify for those who are not used to CSB's style of posting - yes, that was sarcasm.

[YuheiCarreau]

yuuteya, thanks for the compliment, but please stick to the discussion of the issues instead of the people involved in the discussion.

as for the "nationalist" label - in fact almost every Chinese or Korean person i've known would like the Japanese government to sincerely recognise and apologise for its war crimes in WW2.

at any rate, i understand this discussion may be frustrating because there are not many Japanese members here to support your side of the argument, but as i've said before, try not to take it too personally - of course, that goes for people on both sides of the argument.

Yes, but that's not what this discussion is about, and that's not what any of these discussions have been about. I don't think I've seen a single Japanese YW member advocate colonizing east Asia, deny that the Nanking massacre happened, or that Asian women were forced to work in brothels for Japanese soldiers. Yet every time we have a discussion about those topics, there's always at least one Chinese or Korean member who keeps shouting at the top of his lungs, "They're out to get us! They think they never did anything bad in the war!", assuming that any person with Japanese blood automatically has an opposing view.

I'll be the first to say that the Japanese government is apathetic about its WW2 crimes and generally disrespectful to its neighbors. However the postwar Japanese government has never threatened the world with nuclear attack, starved its own citizens, or put down a protest with military force; but if you read these discussions there's always some idiot justifying China and North Korea's actions out of one side of his mouth while spitting on the Japanese from the other.

It's just stupid, because the goal of these people is not to see that Japan make amends for the things it's done - their goal is to see Korea outdo Japan or for China to become the world's only superpower. The use the subject of wartime reparations as a justification for saying all kinds of shit about Japanese people, and the rest of you go along with it because of that.

[Jung Rhee]

Yes, but that's not what this discussion is about, and that's not what any of these discussions have been about. I don't think I've seen a single Japanese YW member advocate colonizing east Asia, deny that the Nanking massacre happened, or that Asian women were forced to work in brothels for Japanese soldiers. Yet every time we have a discussion about those topics, there's always at least one Chinese or Korean member who keeps shouting at the top of his lungs, "They're out to get us! They think they never did anything bad in the war!", assuming that any person with Japanese blood automatically has an opposing view.

I'll be the first to say that the Japanese government is apathetic about its WW2 crimes and generally disrespectful to its neighbors. However the postwar Japanese government has never threatened the world with nuclear attack, starved its own citizens, or put down a protest with military force; but if you read these discussions there's always some idiot justifying China and North Korea's actions out of one side of his mouth while spitting on the Japanese from the other.

It's just stupid, because the goal of these people is not to see that Japan make amends for the things it's done - their goal is to see Korea outdo Japan or for China to become the world's only superpower. The use the subject of wartime reparations as a justification for saying all kinds of shit about Japanese people, and the rest of you go along with it because of that.


There was never a formal and SINCERE apology by the Japanese government, the change of japanese history textbooks and the repeated visit of the Yasakuni Shrine by the Japanese PM are all like a slap on the collective face to all victims of Japan imperialist agresssions in the past. Why can't Japan apologize like the Germans did to the Jews?

[SunWuKong]

Yet every time we have a discussion about those topics, there's always at least one Chinese or Korean member who keeps shouting at the top of his lungs, "They're out to get us! They think they never did anything bad in the war!", assuming that any person with Japanese blood automatically has an opposing view.

well i'm not sure if they're saying the Japanese people are like that. i do not fully understand the island disputes that Japan has with both South Korea and China, regardless of which side is really more justified in its claims, but i can understand the concern with that because Japan has colonised both South Korea and China in the past. regardless of what some of the Chinese and Koreans think of Japanese people, they obviously think that the current Japanese government has not done enough to address its WW2 war crimes, which really calls into question if they think they were justified in their invasion of South Korea and China. with the island disputes of today, it then becomes not only a matter of the past. if the current Japanese government thinks there was a certain level of justification in their invasion of other Asian countries, then what is it capable of doing in the present? it's already thinking about revising its constitution so that they can keep a military force not just for defense.

i mean, the Chinese government has invaded other countries and of course Tibet has been a frequent topic of discussion - many YW members feel that Tibet should be independent, and they fear it will invade Taiwan. but neither the Chinese or South Korean governments have justified or played down an invasion of Japan and any war crimes it may have committed while doing so. it is the Japanese government that is doing this, so again, the question becomes, what is the Japanese government capable of doing, given the island disputes and the fact that its constitution might be revised to allow for an offensive military force?

I'll be the first to say that the Japanese government is apathetic about its WW2 crimes and generally disrespectful to its neighbors. However the postwar Japanese government has never threatened the world with nuclear attack, starved its own citizens, or put down a protest with military force; but if you read these discussions there's always some idiot justifying China and North Korea's actions out of one side of his mouth while spitting on the Japanese from the other.

It's just stupid, because the goal of these people is not to see that Japan make amends for the things it's done - their goal is to see Korea outdo Japan or for China to become the world's only superpower. The use the subject of wartime reparations as a justification for saying all kinds of shit about Japanese people, and the rest of you go along with it because of that.

i understand your concern, and i hope it doesn't sound like i'm siding with one side of the argument.

i'd like the members on the other side of the argument to seriously consider what Yuhei has said here.

and as always, stay civil to each other.

[Lt.Foo]

In many ways we are looking for a sincere apology from the Japanese Government so that there can be a path going forward. Why is it so hard to do that? The Germans did that a long time ago. Furthermore, as I have mentioned before. I want to keep this thread on the topic of how we can keep stability through out the region.

Yuuteya - I appreciate that you do not call me a nationalist because I am not one. I do not understand how you can ridicule my murdered great grandfather as well as the suffering that my grandparents went through. My grandparents and relatives suffered under the Japanese Imperial Army for 30 over years and you think one can forget it. Furthermore the suffering that my mother went through is trivial? I think not. I am the one trying to be the level headed person here to bring understanding and dialogue to this matter. I feel you are being defensive. Correct me if I am wrong?

Yes, but that's not what this discussion is about, and that's not what any of these discussions have been about. I don't think I've seen a single Japanese YW member advocate colonizing east Asia, deny that the Nanking massacre happened, or that Asian women were forced to work in brothels for Japanese soldiers. Yet every time we have a discussion about those topics, there's always at least one Chinese or Korean member who keeps shouting at the top of his lungs, "They're out to get us! They think they never did anything bad in the war!", assuming that any person with Japanese blood automatically has an opposing view.

I do not believe anyone of us have said that.


I'll be the first to say that the Japanese government is apathetic about its WW2 crimes and generally disrespectful to its neighbors. However the postwar Japanese government has never threatened the world with nuclear attack, starved its own citizens, or put down a protest with military force;
I believe their constitution forbids that. (in regards to threats)


but if you read these discussions there's always some idiot justifying China and North Korea's actions out of one side of his mouth while spitting on the Japanese from the other.
I do not see any justification for this. I will be the first to admit China has a huge human rights issue and the UN has to do something about it. I feel trade restriction is the way to go. Hit them where it hurts at this present moment. Their military build up is a little scary too.

North Korea - Kim and his cronies need to get the hell out of there. You know he is Schizophrenic...nice..... My family wants our land back. Yeah right.


It's just stupid, because the goal of these people is not to see that Japan make amends for the things it's done - their goal is to see Korea outdo Japan or for China to become the world's only superpower. The use the subject of wartime reparations as a justification for saying all kinds of shit about Japanese people, and the rest of you go along with it because of that.

I do not believe we have slandered the Japanese at all. It has always been directed at the Government. I hate the Bush administration, but I am not near like him and his bible thumping knuckleheads.

As i have mentioned in previous post, we have to discuss how we go forward as a region.

[SunWuKong]

As i have mentioned in previous post, we have to discuss how we go forward as a region.

ok, so aside from what the Japanese government needs to do, what do the other governments in the region need to do?

[Lt.Foo]

China and Taiwan needs to resolve their dispute. But Because of China's hardline stance this may be difficult. I do not have extensive knowledge of the Israel and Palestinian history and conflict but, if Israel is willing to give up land, Though it may have been illegal for them to occupy it anyway, China may be able to make a similar proposal.

Russia and US should not be involve with the China and Taiwan conflict.

North Korea - I have no clue cause those folks up there are too stubborn. :mad:

[imturok]

China has already seen this happen. The split happened back in the 40's and it's been like that ever since. Are you ever going to bring more to the table than "Everything China does is good. Everything Japan does is bad."?

Are you referring to the Manchurian dynasty when China was ruled by a weak and corrupt feudal system? They allowed secession of various Chinese territories in exchange for "peace" and "trade concessions". Japan was one of the benefactors.

The present PRC government, and I believe most overseas Chinese in this era, do not want to see this part of history to repeat.

Chinese have a long memory, because of the long history, a century is perceived only as a relatively short period. We are still very sensitive. Any move by the Japanese government which reminds us the past will be looked at with suspicion, regardless of the real intent. Deeds rather than words, and over a prolong historical period, will alleviate the problem.

[VV o n g B a]

the root of the problem here is the ethnic nationalism put out by all east asian countries to keep their population's minds off of otherwise poor governing. if the countries involved really wanted to solve the problems the would have negotiated something. china negotiated away land to russia and india for stability, but kept their disputes w/ japan b/c it's politically easy.

there may be something to be said about strategic value but really, a base on some tiny island could be easily wiped out w/ a few missiles from any of the nations involved. i think all of these land disputes would be less important if for instance koizumi hadn't visited those shrines, if wen and hu didn't make such a hubbub about the non-state shrine visits, and if roh weren't continuing that nonsensical sunshine policy which turns off democratic allies like the US and japan. they stoke these fires that can easily get out of control and can't be easily quenched.

who really cares about some godforsaken rocks that noone wants to live on? if there are resources at stake, then negotiate the best deal u can. the resources at stake couldn't possibly be worth the possibility of open skirmishes that drain stability in the entire region and therefore business investment. no stability means japan goes back into recession for the umpteenth time in 15 years, korea loses its substantial accomplishments in the past decade, and china goes into massive unemployment and faces revolution.

the only unavoidable situation i can see is war if taiwan secedes. if chinese leaders didn't act, there'd prolly be revolution and the seeds of that problem were not laid by the current or former administration.

[YuheiCarreau]

Lt. Foo,

The numerous threads relating to Japan that have been started in the last month or so are replete with examples of the behavior I mentioned. Also, if you look through the forum's archives, you'll see that the same thing happens about twice a year - a discussion about Japan turns from legitimate criticism to unfounded accusations that Japan is a ruthless military state. I'm not going to start putting up quotes from those various threads as I believe that would just stir up more resentment (and probably cross the line from debate to personal attack), but they're all still there in the original discussions.

In this very discussion, you used the word "hawkish" to describe the Japanese government - yet when I asked you to show me an instance where the current Japanese government made unecessarily aggressive statements or used unecessary force to settle an international dispute, you couldn't provide any. The fact that you and others use the actions of people not directly responsible for determining Japanese foreign policy (such as the government of the Shimane prefecture, the publishers of the Asahi Shimbun, or the textbook publishers) as fuel for your criticism of Japanese behavior in international disputes shows me that you don't really differentiate between them - that when you're mad at Japan, one Japanese is as good as another. I'm sick of the way that you and others who have been especially critical of Japan refuse to give ground on the issue, that every time I criticize the tone or direction of this debate, you fall back on the question, "why hasn't Japan paid reparations?" - when that's not what we're talking about at all.

[SunWuKong]

The fact that you and others use the actions of people not directly responsible for determining Japanese foreign policy (such as the government of the Shimane prefecture, the publishers of the Asahi Shimbun, or the textbook publishers) as fuel for your criticism of Japanese behavior in international disputes shows me that you don't really differentiate between them - that when you're mad at Japan, one Japanese is as good as another.

don't you think you're jumping into conclusions here?

don't take this as an offense, because i'm certain Japan is not a nation of warmongers, there are right-wing people in Japanese society that do downplay Japan's WW2 crimes. assuming Japan's democracy and capitalism are still intact, it makes one wonder why these people are still in positions of power where they get to say and do these things as public figures. for example, i mentioned Tokyo's mayor before. how did he get elected and then re-elected? maybe the people that don't like his racist antics don't actually vote?

[YuheiCarreau]

don't you think you're jumping into conclusions here?

don't take this as an offense, because i'm certain Japan is not a nation of warmongers, there are right-wing people in Japanese society that do downplay Japan's WW2 crimes. assuming Japan's democracy and capitalism are still intact, it makes one wonder why these people are still in positions of power where they get to say and do these things as public figures. for example, i mentioned Tokyo's mayor before. how did he get elected and then re-elected? maybe the people that don't like his racist antics don't actually vote?

Japanese are probably even more apathetic about their politicians than Americans are. But Ishihara is another good example of a Japanese government official with absolutely no power to make foreign policy decisions, yet has his name brought up in almost every discussion about Japanese foreign policy. While I do believe there are legitimate criticisms to be made about Ishihara, those faults do not translate into a desire on the behalf of Japanese people, or even many of the most right-wing Japanese politicians, to make war.

The Japanese constitutions explicitly states that Japan may not make war on other nations. Can you say the same for the constitution of any other nation in the area? Does China even have a document that resembles a constitution or a bill of rights? Why, then, is there always, ALWAYS someone who says "This is a sign that Japan is going to go to war! History will repeat itself!" about each and every stupid little thing the Japanese government does? If I remember correctly, imturok made that very remark in a thread about a Korean woman who was denied the right to take a senior post in the Japanese healthcare system!

[SunWuKong]

Japanese are probably even more apathetic about their politicians than Americans are. But Ishihara is another good example of a Japanese government official with absolutely no power to make foreign policy decisions, yet has his name brought up in almost every discussion about Japanese foreign policy. While I do believe there are legitimate criticisms to be made about Ishihara, those faults do not translate into a desire on the behalf of Japanese people, or even many of the most right-wing Japanese politicians, to make war.

of course, i agree that it doesn't mean the Japanese people, or rather Tokyo citizens want to make war just because Ishihara was elected. but it may make people wonder what it would lead to if Japanese voters were apathetic enough about his comments to vote him in. there is talk that the Japanese government will revise its constitution to allow for a military force that is not only for defense. will Japanese voters be too apathetic about that, too?

i mean, for the most part, i think even the average Japanese citizen during the WW2 period was only brainwashed by the government into thinking that Japanese imperialism was justifiable and a good cause. so Japanese people of today is peace-loving, but how do we know they won't be brainwashed again, especially if it really is true that Japanese textbooks play down Japan's WW2 crimes?

The Japanese constitutions explicitly states that Japan may not make ware on other nations. Can you say the same for the constitution of any other nation in the area? Does China even have a document that resembles a constitution or a bill of rights? Why, then, is there always, ALWAYS someone who says "This is a sign that Japan is going to go to war! History will repeat itself!" about each and every stupid little thing the Japanese government does?

well, there's also always someone who thinks China is going to invade Taiwan.

China has a constitution, as well as a whole lot of other laws. but the problem with China is the justice system, not the lack of laws in and of themselves.

If I remember correctly, imturok made that very remark in a thread about a Korean woman who was denied the right to take a senior post in the Japanese healthcare system!

i can't speak for him, but i for one agreed with the Japanese government's position on that issue.

[YuheiCarreau]

Are you referring to the Manchurian dynasty when China was ruled by a weak and corrupt feudal system? They allowed secession of various Chinese territories in exchange for "peace" and "trade concessions". Japan was one of the benefactors.

I'm referring to the split between the Kuomintang and the Communists in the late 1940's, and the subsequent split between the ROC and the PROC.

Chinese have a long memory, because of the long history, a century is perceived only as a relatively short period. We are still very sensitive. Any move by the Japanese government which reminds us the past will be looked at with suspicion, regardless of the real intent. Deeds rather than words, and over a prolong historical period, will alleviate the problem.

Japan also has a long history. By that logic, China is far, faaaar more culpable that Japan ever was - as they are easily the most aggressive nation in Asian history. Your arguments make less and less sense as the discussion wears on...

[deez nuts]

oh come on enough with this pc crap already and all this you did this and you did that.

when it comes to our native home countries. nobody's gonna give a crap about what we, ourselves, did to others just what the other side did to us.

so china has a bloody history, so what? i only care what the other side did to china not what china did to the other side. i mean honestly nobody wants to be the bad guy. i don't blame the japanese if they think the same exact way.

[Chu Chi]

Interesting discussion, many good POVs...

Heres my analysis. Maybe the Japanese refuse to apologize to the Koreans and Chinese for the same reason White people in America refuse to apologize to the "Native Americans" and Black people for their mistreatment.

Maybe deep down, they really don't feel bad about what they did. Maybe they see it as a necessary step in dealing with what they considered to be the savage lesser races of mankind?

White people don't apologize when they take over other countries, why should the Japanese?

Operation
Iraqi
Liberation

CC

[deez nuts]

Interesting discussion, many good POVs...

Heres my analysis. Maybe the Japanese refuse to apologize to the Koreans and Chinese for the same reason White people in America refuse to apologize to the "Native Americans" and Black people for their mistreatment.

Maybe deep down, they really don't feel bad about what they did. Maybe they see it as a necessary step in dealing with what they considered to be the savage lesser races of mankind?

White people don't apologize when take over other countries, why should the Japanese?

Operation
Iraqi
Liberation

CC

hahaha what a tension breaker.

[YuheiCarreau]

of course, i agree that it doesn't mean the Japanese people, or rather Tokyo citizens want to make war just because Ishihara was elected. but it may make people wonder what it would lead to if Japanese voters were apathetic enough about his comments to vote him in. there is talk that the Japanese government will revise its constitution to allow for a military force that is not only for defense. will Japanese voters be too apathetic about that, too?

That's a valid concern, but I don't think things will play out that way. My interpretation of the Japanese brand of pacifism is that it's motivated by several factors. One, that WW2 ended up costing the average Japanese far more than it gained him; two, that Japan has gained more in the postwar period through peaceful means that it did by fighting war and colonizing Asia; and three, that Japanese people should only be concerned with matters of international politics that directly affect Japan. When Japan didn't send troops to the multinational alliance that fought the first Gulf War the rest of the world was annoyed that Japan wouldn't put its soldiers at risk for the greater cause, but most Japanese felt perfectly justified. When Japan decided to send troops to Iraq to perform peacekeeping functions, the decision was heavily debated.

i mean, for the most part, i think even the average Japanese citizen during the WW2 period was only brainwashed by the government into thinking that Japanese imperialism was justifiable and a good cause. so Japanese people of today is peace-loving, but how do we know they won't be brainwashed again, especially if it really is true that Japanese textbooks play down Japan's WW2 crimes?

Well, the Japanese in the 1940s weren't just brainwashed, they were agressively policed. Communists, pacifists, and other dissidents were intimidated, jailed, and silenced from public discourse - it's not just that the government didn't endorse dissenting views, they beat them into submission. There's a big difference between the way the Japanese government worked back then and the way the Japanese government works now, so I don't think it's fair to assume that the same thing might happen again.

well, there's also always someone who thinks China is going to invade Taiwan.

Yeah but that might actually happen. The current diplomatic climate makes me think that an actual full-on military invasion is unlikely, but China does agressively push the "One China" policy. There's no longer any Japanese politicians advocating the "Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever. Also, people don't make that remark in a discussion about, say, Chinese miners.

[deez nuts]

and fuck japan apologizing to china for its past war crimes.

i, personally, could care less.

there's my fucking olive branch.

[SunWuKong]

ok, if we've exhausted this topic, i'm going to close it soon.
we're going to give this topic a rest.

[deez nuts]

if it makes it somewhat better my two main characters i use in street fighter: third strike is ken (half japanese/half white) or makoto (japanese). the other two top tiers being chun li (china) and yun (hong kong) i don't even use.

i used makoto in the super battle opera east coast qualifier that's how much faith i have in the japanese.

oh yeah i used vism ryu (uh huh japanese guy) in alpha three too.

[yoMAMA]

korea needs to come back to china. once the chinese and korean (we'll let them keep the korean label since even though they're really chinese) come together; japan will be quaking in her geisha shoes.

Don't forget yearly tributes in the forms of kimchi chigae to beijing.

any delay in shipment shall be immediately recieved as an act of war and will be dealt accordingly to preserve the interest of the motherland.

:biggrin: :tongue: :wink:

and fuck japan apologizing to china for its past war crimes.

i, personally, could care less.

there's my fucking olive branch.

Strongly disagree.

Japan has to apologize to China and the rest of Asia for her atrocities.

Only if such actions are done can asian countries truly trust Japan again, instead of the dysfunctional "we love you in trade....but fuck we hate in everything else" relationship.

[Jung Rhee]

The current diplomatic climate makes me think that an actual full-on military invasion is unlikely, but China does agressively push the "One China" policy. There's no longer any Japanese politicians advocating the "Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever.


Yeah how sad is it? We do need that "Pan-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere"!



Japan has to apologize to China and the rest of Asia for her atrocities.

Only if such actions are done can asian countries truly trust Japan again, instead of the dysfunctional "we love you in trade....but fuck we hate in everything else" relationship.

Unlike the Korean people, a lot of Taiwanese people think they are part Japanese? (from what I heard in Japantoday and Forumosa.com forum, not my own point of view.)

[SunWuKong]

alright i'm closing this thread.
this topic deserves discussion, but we're going to give it a rest for now.