China Seeks to Combat Abortion Imbalance

[nola]

OHHHHH! So aborting millions of female fetuses only became a problem after Chinese officials realized Chinese men won't get laid!!!!! I SEE..........



China Seeks to Combat Abortion Imbalance

BEIJING - China's top lawmakers want to make it a crime for doctors to detect an unborn baby's sex for non-medical reasons, in a bid to combat the abortion of female fetuses, government-run newspapers reported Sunday.

It is already illegal in China to use an ultrasound or other means determine if a fetus is a boy or a girl, but doctors who do so only face administrative penalties and not criminal charges, the China Youth Daily reported.

"Despite the ban on detecting the sex of a fetus, such illegal detection still exists, causing a serious imbalance in the sex ratio of the newborn population," the report said. "This issue has aroused attention from China's top legislators."

Sunday's reports didn't specify what penalties doctors might face, or whether parents might also be held accountable.

Government figures show 117 boys are born in China for every 100 girls — a gap blamed largely on a policy limiting most couples to one child. In a society that values sons, many parents abort baby girls, hoping to try again for a boy. In some rural areas, the ratio is approaching 150 boys for every 100 girls, leading to fears of a huge surplus of men who will be unable to find mates in coming decades.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

But I need my Chinese women :frown: :redface: :wink:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

On a serious note, isn't there something about government values not being entirely accurate since many female births aren't reported? Doesn't excuse the devaluing of female babies until it poses a problem for sexually frustrated men of course, which was the point of Nola's initial post.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

On a serious note, isn't there something about government values not being entirely accurate since many female births aren't reported?
Well, the only thing communist countries can produce reliably are statistics, and since China is no longer reliably communist, whaddaya expect? Also, there's a LOT less devaluing of female babies by evil Chinese male patriarchs going on than is commonly assumed, as I just posted in this thread last week:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=22214

75% of the male-female birth gap in China (and even some of the birth gap in Chinese-Americans) can be explained by hepatitis-B infection, which is endemic in rural areas of China (where the sex ratio imbalance is the highest) and has been known to cause more male births rather than female births since the 1970s. I suspect American media ignore this because they'd rather explain it away as the Red Chinese being immoral, and the Chinese media ignore it because the government would rather explain the birth gap away as people having abortions, which sounds modern, than people being infected with an inoculable disease, which sounds primitive and third-world. The reason it was unaddressed for so long was far less due to sexism and far more the same reason why SARS was able to spread so fast: the Chinese public health system is shit, more concerned with saving face for the nation than saving lives.

Finally, more baby boys than baby girls are commonly born anyway. In the US, the ratio is 105:100. So to summarize, of the 17 extra baby boys, 5 are natural, about 9 are due to hep-B, and I'd bet that a lot more of the rest are due to underregistration, as you mentioned, rather than abortion.

[kimpossible]

Apologies to reference an article I could never locate again, but it proposed that male-female gender gap in China could translate to more China-Taiwan marriages because the male-female gender gap in Taiwan is in favor towards females.

I haven't remote fact-checked that and have no idea how true it could be.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Apologies to reference an article I could never locate again, but it proposed that male-female gender gap in China could translate to more China-Taiwan marriages because the male-female gender gap in Taiwan is in favor towards females.

I haven't remote fact-checked that and have no idea how true it could be.

I'm all for it. Bring on the Taiwanese gigibaes~

[SunWuKong]

Apologies to reference an article I could never locate again, but it proposed that male-female gender gap in China could translate to more China-Taiwan marriages because the male-female gender gap in Taiwan is in favor towards females.

I haven't remote fact-checked that and have no idea how true it could be.

this is unlikely to happen because women don't generally marry foreign men that are poorer. the reverse seems to be a trend though, some Taiwanese men are taking mainland brides.

[VV o n g B a]

Apologies to reference an article I could never locate again, but it proposed that male-female gender gap in China could translate to more China-Taiwan marriages because the male-female gender gap in Taiwan is in favor towards females.

I haven't remote fact-checked that and have no idea how true it could be.i think the imbalance a couple years ago was already great enuf that the unmarried men could marry every woman in taiwan be they child or grandmother and still have left over men.

[yick]

Hey as long as they don't cut off exports of mail-order brides... I could care less... $55 more dollars and Zhang Ziyi is mine.... :biggrin: You figured a country of 1.3 billion chinese people could have done the "math" and realized things didn't add-up... So much for that stereotype? :frown: But at least they all know kung-fu.. :biggrin:

[AngryABCGirl]

this is unlikely to happen because women don't generally marry foreign men that are poorer. the reverse seems to be a trend though, some Taiwanese men are taking mainland brides.

Typical males wanting a wife he can boss around. :mad:

[yick]

Typical males wanting a wife he can boss around. :mad:

It's a shame women aren't socialized in China to be "stronger". But unfortunately that's how things are going to "roll" until China catches up with social reforms...

I read somewhere recently, I can't for the life of me remember the periodical, but in very poor areas of Asia, brothers of one family will pool their resources to "win" a bride. It's a sobering thought and just goes to show you how lucky we are. But if China keeps aborted those baby girls they'll find themselves in the same boat because women are going to be a hot commodity there.

[SunWuKong]

It's a shame women aren't socialized in China to be "stronger". But unfortunately that's how things are going to "roll" until China catches up with social reforms...

well the irony is that up until China "re-introduced" capitalism into the country again, women were taught to be stronger. not that sexism didn't exist or anything, but society probably believed more in gender equality. Mao himself said that "women hold up half the sky". but after capitalism was introduced again, and people gained more social freedom, gender discrimination has been on the rise, and money became more important again as the country is not trying as hard to take care of everybody.

technically, gender discrimination is still not allowed. but what needs to improve is the Chinese justice system, and combating corruption.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Apologies to reference an article I could never locate again, but it proposed that male-female gender gap in China could translate to more China-Taiwan marriages because the male-female gender gap in Taiwan is in favor towards females.
Taiwan male/female birth ratio shows the same trend as China (probably for the same reason of hepatitis-B), it's 109 boys born for every 100 girls born. The sex ratio swings back the other way later because of all the draft-evaders leaving the country, not to mention all the Hokkien hicks importing mail-order brides from Indonesia, Vietnam, and yes, rural China.

[nola]

I read somewhere recently, I can't for the life of me remember the periodical, but in very poor areas of Asia, brothers of one family will pool their resources to "win" a bride. It's a sobering thought and just goes to show you how lucky we are. But if China keeps aborted those baby girls they'll find themselves in the same boat because women are going to be a hot commodity there.The idea of death being an issue only in regards to getting laid should be very disturbing but it's not.

[kimpossible]

Taiwan male/female birth ratio shows the same trend as China (probably for the same reason of hepatitis-B), it's 109 boys born for every 100 girls born.

Oh good. I don't have to feel guilty about the one I took.

Do you know how Hep B might be responsible for the higher likelihood of a male birth? I can't think how that's medically possible.

[SunWuKong]

Do you know how Hep B might be responsible for the higher likelihood of a male birth? I can't think how that's medically possible.

from what i understand of the article that Alibaba posted before, they don't understand the causal effect either. but they have plenty of statistical studies to suggest it happens.

[YuheiCarreau]

from what i understand of the article that Alibaba posted before, they don't understand the causal effect either. but they have plenty of statistical studies to suggest it happens.

I assume that it has some kind of effect on men, like maybe it lowers the production of x-chromosome sperm or something - because it's the male contribution which determines the sex of the child. Although I suppose that it could also be affecting the ability of pregnant women to carry female children...

[SunWuKong]

I assume that it has some kind of effect on men, like maybe it lowers the production of x-chromosome sperm or something - because it's the male contribution which determines the sex of the child. Although I suppose that it could also be affecting the ability of pregnant women to carry female children...

i think one possible explanation that was given was that somehow female fetuses with the HBV was more likely self-abort.

[yick]

i think one possible explanation that was given was that somehow female fetuses with the HBV was more likely self-abort.

I was researching this and one the the complications of hep is that it may cause premature birth or spontaneous abortion. Still that doesn't answer why more male fetuses would survive. Hmm.. Back to the books...

Here's an interesting tidbit of info: http://www.doctorndtv.com/news/detailnews.asp?id=610

Apparently mothers carrying male fetuses consume more and male fetuses are usually bigger... This could explain part of the puzzle.

[nola]

(nice try, guys and chinese officials...)

[kimpossible]

I know there are studies that you're pointing to, but I'm not convinced of the Hep B connection. I'm very familiar with miscarriages and Hep B. I've never heard of a connection between the two. What usually happens if the mother actively has Hep B is she passes it to the child who is born a chronic carrier. Though Hepatitis B is very common in Asia, it is not common for a pregnant woman to actively have Hepatitis B. 90% of all children born to mothers who actively have Hepatitis B are chronic carriers.

If it is true that Hepatitis B is the cause of more males surviving for one reason or another 90%* of them should be chronic carriers. That's a shitload of chronic carriers.

edit: wait, checking that number. it might not be that high but it's very high.

[golden_buns]

I think it's more because of the abortion of female babies, because Korea has Hep B pretty much under control and we're falling in the same trend as China because of abortions

[SunWuKong]

I know there are studies that you're pointing to, but I'm not convinced of the Hep B connection. I'm very familiar with miscarriages and Hep B. I've never heard of a connection between the two. What usually happens if the mother actively has Hep B is she passes it to the child who is born a chronic carrier. Though Hepatitis B is very common in Asia, it is not common for a pregnant woman to actively have Hepatitis B. 90% of all children born to mothers who actively have Hepatitis B are chronic carriers.

well i don't know. the study cite other research that says that HBV carriers have offspring sex ratio of as high as 1.55 boys per girl.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~eoster/hepb.pdf

what was particularly telling was the evidence with Alaskan Natives, who was also a group with very high infection rates. the US started a vaccination campaign for them in 1982, and by the end of the 90s, those vaccinated were giving births, and evidence was found that the sex ratio of newborns have dropped significantly.

If it is true that Hepatitis B is the cause of more males surviving for one reason or another 90%* of them should be chronic carriers. That's a shitload of chronic carriers.

i'm not sure i understand the significance of this. let's say 10 out of 100 pregnant women actively have HepB, so that means 9 out of the 100 newborns from these mothers would be chronic carriers. isn't that a pretty normal rate?

I think it's more because of the abortion of female babies, because Korea has Hep B pretty much under control and we're falling in the same trend as China because of abortions

i think the infection rate in South Korea is still about 6% to 9%, that is still considered high.

[kimpossible]

I don't know what to tell you. I don't find statistical analysis on its own, sans any medical explanation, compelling enough to find it credible. Even if they were able to measure the number of miscarriages per infected mother, most miscarriages are first trimester and not multiple. They are often not 'diagnosed' for cause or gender, if it's even possible to do so given the development of the fetus at the time. The assumption is that most of the miscarriages were female fetus.

[SunWuKong]

I don't know what to tell you. I don't find statistical analysis on its own, sans any medical explanation, compelling enough to find it credible. Even if they were able to measure the number of miscarriages per infected mother, most miscarriages are first trimester and not multiple. They are often not 'diagnosed' for cause or gender, if it's even possible to do so given the development of the fetus at the time. The assumption is that most of the miscarriages were female fetus.

i understand what you mean. it's really just a correlational study and they have no causal evidence to support their claim.

i mean, my aunt was a carrier (now infected) when she gave birth to 5 girls and 0 boys. i figured if what the study says is true, i guess my aunt is an outlier or an exception.

but hey, even the smoking-causes-lung-cancer fact is derived from correlational studies.

[golden_buns]

All in all, this makes me glad that I was born at a time in which male/female ratio is ok.

I fear for the future generation of guys

[Faithless]

The more I read about the Chinese government's attempt to control its populations birth rates, the more I'm convinced it doesn't know what it is doing.

[Faithless]

China doing the right thing. Maybe they got a clue or something.

China Unlikely to Criminalize Selective Abortions (http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2946/2006/06/24/421@106427.htm)

2006-06-24 20:39:42 | Xinhua

China's legislature is unlikely to criminalize selective abortions of female fetuses as lawmakers with sharply divided views deleted the article from a draft amendment before a final vote.

On submission to the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress (NPC) for review, the first two versions of the draft amendment to the criminal law provided penalties of up to three years in jail, probation and fines for those involved in gender identification of embryos for non-medical purposes.

But in the third version before a vote on the draft amendment on June 29, lawmakers removed the stipulation as "many controversies remain".

According to the Law Committee of the NPC Standing Committee, some lawmakers and the National Population and Family Planning Commission in particular argued the rising imbalance of the newborn sex ratio was a complicated issue calling for a combination of solutions and putting it into the criminal law would just drive potential offenders underground.

However, they believed criminal penalties should not be sacrificed just because of difficulties in evidence gathering.

China has 119 boys are born for every 100 girls, much higher than the global ratio of 103 to 107 boys for every 100 girls.

But other lawmakers and law experts attributed the gender imbalance to entrenched beliefs of "valuing boys more than girls" and "bringing up boys to provide for old age", contending that such concepts should not and could not be changed by legal means.

They held that pregnant women should enjoy the right to know the sex of the fetus and an ultrasound test did not necessarily lead to abortion, as well as arguing the difficulties of gathering evidence.

Traditionally, sons have been more valued as a way for the family name to continue and to provide for the parents as they got older.