multiculturalism

[loserbutt]

So, how to best approach multiculturalism? someone I know said something interesting the other day... "some people say that you shouldn't dwell on it, but the lingering effects of racism are still around and so it needs to be paid attention"

I disagreed with her, as I've known the bitterness from dwelling on racism. opinions?

[Keshikov]

Everyone has their rights, but it is best for everyone, if they just stay with their own...The melting pot idea is rather fascist...it may have worked when a whole bunch of different whites lived amongst eachother, but now....
We should preserve our rich herritage, and be proud to be Asian, not loose it to the melting pot.

[kuilong]

Everyone has their rights, but it is best for everyone, if they just stay with their own...The melting pot idea is rather fascist...it may have worked when a whole bunch of different whites lived amongst eachother, but now....
We should preserve our rich herritage, and be proud to be Asian, not loose it to the melting pot.

Ironic, seeing as before there was significant non-European immigration to this country, different ethnic groups in this country were even more separated into enclaves.

In the 19th century, you could live in a community in which all your friends spoke to you in German, you talked to your doctor and grocer in German, you read German-language newspapers (ironically, one of the few sources of uncensored news in those days), and you went to a German Lutheran church (most churches only switched to English during WWI, to prove their loyalty to the country).

[Chu Chi]

So, how to best approach multiculturalism? someone I know said something interesting the other day... "some people say that you shouldn't dwell on it, but the lingering effects of racism are still around and so it needs to be paid attention"

I disagreed with her, as I've known the bitterness from dwelling on racism. opinions?

My suggestion is for using accurate language to solve any problem. If the problem is racism, use the word [racism] to describe it.

Resist the urge to dilute the accuracy of your language when discussing racism by using words like "diversity"..."multiculturalism"..."bias".

We do this in an effort to avoid offending White people.

When discussing "terrorism", use the word TERRORISM.

When discussing racism, use the word RACISM.

CC

[BigLew]

^Huh???

[SunWuKong]

^ditto

[draconisz]

So, how to best approach multiculturalism? someone I know said something interesting the other day... "some people say that you shouldn't dwell on it, but the lingering effects of racism are still around and so it needs to be paid attention"

I disagreed with her, as I've known the bitterness from dwelling on racism. opinions?

Well, you can't force multiculturalism on folks, can you? Why can't the people who want cultural diversity, have it? And let the people who don't, go their own ways.

[>:^|]

Well, you can't force multiculturalism on folks, can you? Why can't the people who want cultural diversity, have it? And let the people who don't, go their own ways.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure I understand the first poster's original question, but that doesn't stop me from giving an opinion.

I guess what I would like to see is a recognition that there are different but equally valid ways to be American. I dislike when people judge my Americanism by how much it is like White America.

And to add to what Chu Chi wrote, people often toss around buzz words like "multiculturalism" and "diversity" to mean a token attempt to add a little color to a room without changing the overall environment. So sometimes it's just a half-assed attempt to address problems of race on an extremely superficial level.

[hooligan]

Hmmm ... I'm not sure I understand the first poster's original question, but that doesn't stop me from giving an opinion.

I guess what I would like to see is a recognition that there are different but equally valid ways to be American. I dislike when people judge my Americanism by how much it is like White America.

And to add to what Chu Chi wrote, people often toss around buzz words like "multiculturalism" and "diversity" to mean a token attempt to add a little color to a room without changing the overall environment. So sometimes it's just a half-assed attempt to address problems of race on an extremely superficial level.

This sounds like the UC system. I don't think we "dwell" on racism, but rather explore its implications. Multiculturalism, from my understanding, is another play at diversity. Kind of like how people would pick certain things from a culture that they liked and call it culture.

[draconisz]

Hmmm ... I'm not sure I understand the first poster's original question, but that doesn't stop me from giving an opinion.

I guess what I would like to see is a recognition that there are different but equally valid ways to be American. I dislike when people judge my Americanism by how much it is like White America.

And to add to what Chu Chi wrote, people often toss around buzz words like "multiculturalism" and "diversity" to mean a token attempt to add a little color to a room without changing the overall environment. So sometimes it's just a half-assed attempt to address problems of race on an extremely superficial level.


Ever since learning about my own culture, I have learned to accept that being an American defies cultural definitions. It's supposed to encompass every culture under the sun. But I have also learned something else. Some people cling to racist beliefs as though their very lives depend upon it.

And trying to convince them of the silliness of racism, is futile. I think, we are better served by trying to establish relationships and building common ground with others who have similar goals.

Trying to convince someone of their humanity is like. . .trying to teach a person how to breathe. It just isn't possible to teach. You either know. . .or you don't.

I think I know what you are talking about when using the terms "multiculturalism" and "diversity". I been in more than a few situations. Yeah sure, there are many people who think of it as just a "dash" of pepper or something.

It's kinda crazy.

[John0101]

So, how to best approach multiculturalism? someone I know said something interesting the other day... "some people say that you shouldn't dwell on it, but the lingering effects of racism are still around and so it needs to be paid attention"

I disagreed with her, as I've known the bitterness from dwelling on racism. opinions?

Can you please clarify your question? You seem to have two ideas here, multiculturalism and reactions to racism.

In your question did you mean how we can react to racism in a multiculture society?

[Commando_turned_MD]

I'm confused???

[kuilong]

I hope this is an appropriate forum for me to say just how annoyed I'm starting to get at the people who complain about all the immigrants who (ohnoes) REFUSE to learn English!!!! Or the growing multilingualism in the US. (What a boring place this country would be if everyone spoke the same language.)

[hooligan]

I hope this is an appropriate forum for me to say just how annoyed I'm starting to get at the people who complain about all the immigrants who (ohnoes) REFUSE to learn English!!!! Or the growing multilingualism in the US. (What a boring place this country would be if everyone spoke the same language.)

I hear yah brother. I guess no one got the memo that the US doesn't have an "official" state sponsored language. Fucking idiots.

[asvenus]

Hmmm ... I'm not sure I understand the first poster's original question, but that doesn't stop me from giving an opinion.

I guess what I would like to see is a recognition that there are different but equally valid ways to be American. I dislike when people judge my Americanism by how much it is like White America.

And to add to what Chu Chi wrote, people often toss around buzz words like "multiculturalism" and "diversity" to mean a token attempt to add a little color to a room without changing the overall environment. So sometimes it's just a half-assed attempt to address problems of race on an extremely superficial level.

Yes.
i detest 'multiculturalism'...so as for how we should approach it...i think the best way is to creep up from behind and then stab it in the butt..and twist the knife..heh heh

[Emkae]

My suggestion is for using accurate language to solve any problem. If the problem is racism, use the word [racism] to describe it.

Resist the urge to dilute the accuracy of your language when discussing racism by using words like "diversity"..."multiculturalism"..."bias".

We do this in an effort to avoid offending White people.

When discussing "terrorism", use the word TERRORISM.

When discussing racism, use the word RACISM.

CC

LOL! Thank you so much! I was confused as to what ..."multiculturalism"...referred to in this context, I thought we were talking interracial heritage or something…now I get it…racism! Thanx!
:wink:

...I have learned to accept that being an American defies cultural definitions. It's supposed to encompass every culture under the sun.

Actually as a "true" American (50/50, African American/Native American, ancestors been here for quite a while :wink: ) I can honestly say that being an "American" personifies cultural definition. It's supposed to combine the culture you bought with you and the culture you develop from being here based on where you came from to create a culture unique within the world.

For example, Ideally Asian-American culture is not a mish-mash of "every culture under the sun", nor is it an exact preservation of Asian culture as practiced in Asia…because you're not in Asia anymore! Once here you use what you bought with you to stake your claim here creating a culture that never existed before…IMO.

I hear yah brother. I guess no one got the memo that the US doesn't have an "official" state sponsored language. Fucking idiots.

Actually it's pretty annoying to patronize a business in an English speaking country, in an English speaking neighborhood and deal with a proprietor who…doesn't…speak…English? :confused: How does she stay in business? :confused: Make the kids learn English, get good jobs and support the family so she can go on not speaking English? Why shouldn't she learn the language that everybody around her is speaking?

Not that she has to…you are correct there is no mandate to speak English. But quite frankly, if she wants my business I require that she understand exactly what I'm asking for…and I speak English!

[SunWuKong]

Why shouldn't she learn the language that everybody around her is speaking?

actually, i tend to ask the opposite question. why should she learn English, if she can get by without it?

[Emkae]

actually, i tend to ask the opposite question. why should she learn English, if she can get by without it?

Because I might be her customer. It might be good for business...you're right, it's obviously not necessary.

[hkRT]

Actually it's pretty annoying to patronize a business in an English speaking country, in an English speaking neighborhood and deal with a proprietor who…doesn't…speak…English? :confused: How does she stay in business? :confused: Make the kids learn English, get good jobs and support the family so she can go on not speaking English? Why shouldn't she learn the language that everybody around her is speaking?

Not that she has to…you are correct there is no mandate to speak English. But quite frankly, if she wants my business I require that she understand exactly what I'm asking for…and I speak English!

As I read the post above, racist incidences came to mind.. Let's see--

The lady doesn't speak very good English. She is embarrassed to speak it. It certainly doesn't help when there are racist fucks criticizing her broken english, calling her retarded, telling her to go back home. Who says she isn't learning the language? It's so much harder for an adult to learn a new language than for a kid. Also, just speaking perfect English (yes, always English, English, English) does not mean you are American enough, nor does it mean you are a contributing member of the society. The lady who doesn't speak very good English may be sweeping the floor and making all the bathrooms clean so that other people can use them. Another lady who may not speak perfect English is working hard as a cashier at the till, greeting customers and ringing things in as fast and efficient as a human can be. The man who doesn't speak very good English may be working damn hard constructing the roads so they are in good condition for people to drive on. Another man who doesn't speak good English is farming the land the whole day to give fresh fruits and vegetables. (Oh, chinese weren't allowed to own land to farm way back a long time ago in America, even when they were good farmers.) All these people contribute a great deal to the society through their hard honest work despite not being able to speak good english and always being ridiculed or looked down upon.

[Emkae]

As I read the post above, racist incidences came to mind.. Let's see--

The lady doesn't speak very good English. She is embarrassed to speak it. It certainly doesn't help when there are racist fucks criticizing her broken english, calling her retarded, telling her to go back home.

HELLO! Nobody is discriminating against her RACE so racism does NOT apply in this situation. No on criticized her "broken English"…she doesn't speak any English. No one called her retarded or suggested she go anywhere…would she understand if one did?

Who says she isn't learning the language? It's so much harder for an adult to learn a new language than for a kid. Also, just speaking perfect English (yes, always English, English, English) does not mean you are American enough, nor does it mean you are a contributing member of the society.

After 10 years with the same confused expression when I ask for the "blue pack please, not the red", I say she isn't learning. No one asked or required the she be "American enough" (whatever that means). She is obviously contributing to the society because she owns a store I patronize.

The lady who doesn't speak very good English may be sweeping the floor and making all the bathrooms clean so that other people can use them.

And I thank her.

Another lady who may not speak perfect English is working hard as a cashier at the till, greeting customers and ringing things in as fast and efficient as a human can be.

But if she rings up the wrong things or cannot answer my questions this lady becomes a problem to me.

The man who doesn't speak very good English may be working damn hard constructing the roads so they are in good condition for people to drive on. Another man who doesn't speak good English is farming the land the whole day to give fresh fruits and vegetables.

I thank them and I look forward to driving on that road and picking up a bushel of that produce.

All these people contribute a great deal to the society through their hard honest work despite not being able to speak good english and always being ridiculed or looked down upon.

No one here is negating the hard work anyone does. No one here is ridiculing or looking down on anyone.

I simply need the "blue pack" and I don't have time to explain what that means for the 1000th time…I'm trying to catch my bus!

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Basically it should be up to the woman whether or not to learn English. If she can get by and feels as if she doesn't need English-speaking customers to keep her business going, that's her choice. If she wants to learn "hello", "goodbye", "that'll be (price) please" and "thank you come again" (haha!) then that's fine too. The point is it's up to her. Nobody should say "Oh you should learn English" or "You're wrong not to learn English".

Actually it's pretty annoying to patronize a business in an English speaking country, in an English speaking neighborhood and deal with a proprietor who…doesn't…speak…English? :confused: How does she stay in business? :confused: Make the kids learn English, get good jobs and support the family so she can go on not speaking English? Why shouldn't she learn the language that everybody around her is speaking?

How does she stay in business, you ask? That's for her to worry about and you to forget.

Not that she has to…you are correct there is no mandate to speak English. But quite frankly, if she wants my business I require that she understand exactly what I'm asking for…and I speak English!

Fortunately your requirement probably wouldn't pose much significance to her, otherwise she'd have been breaking out the Hooked on Phonics tapes by now.

But if she rings up the wrong things or cannot answer my questions this lady becomes a problem to me.

Then you have a choice not to shop there again. The point is it's not your business, it's her's, and unless there is potential for putting the customer in danger, there's no reason why she shouldn't be allowed to make her own decisions regarding whether or not to learn English. Again as stated above if she thinks she can afford to do without English speaking customers (or if the English speaking customers are able to tolerate her illiteracy because they like her products/services) then there's nothing wrong with that.

[SunWuKong]

Because I might be her customer. It might be good for business...you're right, it's obviously not necessary.

well if she didn't speak take the time to learn English, obviously she's not targetting English speakers as her customers.

[Emkae]

I Agree mplicily.

My store owner's success is seen in the fact that I (and othere like me) still patronize her business. (Actually she's the "mom" I never understood, and like a "mom" she drives me crazy! I love her!)

However, I wanted to give input into why some complain about those who do not speak English…no matter what language they speak (in this category I would include "Ebonics".

I wanted to illustrate that most complaints have nothing to do with race, it's more a matter of expediency. Basically I want her to speak English because it would make life easier for me! And I freely admit that.

[SunWuKong]

After 10 years with the same confused expression when I ask for the "blue pack please, not the red", I say she isn't learning. No one asked or required the she be "American enough" (whatever that means). She is obviously contributing to the society because she owns a store I patronize.

well... uh... isn't it pretty obvious she has no need to learn English then? even though you're annoyed at her lack of English abilities, you keep patrionising her store after 10 years. so obviously regardless of her English abilities, you still do business with her.

and if her store is simply the most convenient for you and you feel you must keep going back there, well then i guess you'll just have to live with it, no?

But if she rings up the wrong things or cannot answer my questions this lady becomes a problem to me.

how much of a problem can it be if you keep going back to the store? obviously the benefits of going to the store outweighs her lack of English abilities for you.

question: what do you think of Bill Cosby's comments that blacks need to learn proper English?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I wanted to illustrate that most complaints have nothing to do with race, it's more a matter of expediency. Basically I want her to speak English because it would make life easier for me! And I freely admit that.

And I want those black kids down the street to stop talking in ebonics and start talking like the white people I grew up around so that I can understand them better. It would make my life so much easier. :rolleyes: I also wish all Japanese chicks would learn English so I could hit on them with greater efficiency.

[Emkae]

Where's the "EDIT" button??? I agree with you both implicitly...

And I want those black kids down the street to stop talking in ebonics and start talking like the white people I grew up around so that I can understand them better. It would make my life so much easier. :rolleyes:

WORD!

[SunWuKong]

why can't blacks and Latinos stop dropping out of high school? it would make my life so much easier if i paid less taxes that go to paying for their welfare.


(yes that was sarcasm.)

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I Agree implicitly

Then what's the problem? haha

However, I wanted to give input into why some complain about those who do not speak English

Because they're whining for narrow and selfish reasons? I assume you'd agree since you accepted both of our arguments.

[Emkae]

well... uh... isn't it pretty obvious she has no need to learn English then? even though you're annoyed at her lack of English abilities, you keep patrionising her store after 10 years. so obviously regardless of her English abilities, you still do business with her.

and if her store is simply the most convenient for you and you feel you must keep going back there, well then i guess you'll just have to live with it, no?



how much of a problem can it be if you keep going back to the store? obviously the benefits of going to the store outweighs her lack of English abilities for you.

question: what do you think of Bill Cosby's comments that blacks need to learn proper English?


I guess you wrote this while I was posting my reply above. You're right about her lack of English overriding my annoyance...but in the beginning!!! :eek:

I support Bill Cosby 100%, I've been saying it for years!

Because they're whining for narrow and selfish reasons? I assume you'd agree since you accepted both of our arguments.

What other reason are worth whining for? :wink:

Hope I don't get banned for this but sometimes I get carried away with the whole "Ugly American" syndrome. Ironic for a Black girl don't you think?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

What other reason are worth whining for? :wink:

Well if and when individuals choose to bring up an issue of concern for discussion here, usually the complaint is more than simply an unreasonable pet peeve. :smile:

[kuilong]

Actually it's pretty annoying to patronize a business in an English speaking country, in an English speaking neighborhood and deal with a proprietor who…doesn't…speak…English? How does she stay in business? Make the kids learn English, get good jobs and support the family so she can go on not speaking English? Why shouldn't she learn the language that everybody around her is speaking?

If enough people in your neighborhood speak a non-English language, such that it's inconveniencing you, perhaps you should learn that language. If not, then what's the problem?

I mean, if you're a mechanic and enough people in your neighborhood decide they want to drive European cars, what are you going to say? "They should drive American cars instead"? Or are you going to learn how to work with European cars?

[kasia]

let's limit this thread on the views of apas on the issue of multiculturalism and NOT allow it to turn into a discussion of what simply we dislike about our other's cultures or what non-asians dislike about our cultures or our defense to what they dislike.

i tend to agree with dragoniz - we should allow it to happen naturally. for those who are ready to embrace it, we should celebrate and support that. for those who are not yet ready, so long as they aren't acting in a racist manner, i don't see a reason to interfere.

[Emkae]

Well if and when individuals choose to bring up an issue of concern for discussion here, usually the complaint is more than simply an unreasonable pet peeve. :smile:

Yet, my point was precisely that this is not a mere "pet peeve" to those who complain. For that reason I chose to broach a subject that I know is "taboo".

Basically I want to share that when I complain about someone's lack of English skills it has nothing to do with race, wanting them to "go home", "hatin' on" their success, disrespect for their culture, or any of the other of reasons associated with this taboo complaint - "Lack of English Skills" - .. For most of us it's just a matter of our convenience.

That might not seem fair but that's the way we are raised in America (hence the "Ugly American syndrome that infects anyone who's been here long enough).

This might seem like a pet peeve but it becomes a more serious issue when people choose to escalate it into a race issue (which for some it actually is).

[kasia]

That might not seem fair but that's the way we are raised in America (hence the "Ugly American syndrome that infects anyone who's been here long enough).


that's fine that you have that opinion, but please respect that this is forum in existence for the purpose of asian-americans forming a political consciousness, and discussions preferably should not be bogged down by what non-asians feel about our culture or people of our culture.

[Emkae]

If enough people in your neighborhood speak a non-English language, such that it's inconveniencing you, perhaps you should learn that language. If not, then what's the problem?

:confused: We are not encouraged to "learn other languages" here, but I like the idea...

that's fine that you have that opinion, but please respect that this is forum in existence for the purpose of asian-americans forming a political consciousness, and discussions preferably should not be bogged down by what non-asians feel about our culture or people of our culture.

I had no such intention. I merely answered a statement that was made by another member.

As stated in my introduction, I am here to learn what Asians have to say about your own culture and mine. To that end I will refrain for commenting unless a comment is directed to me.

I apologize for any inconvenience...

[kasia]

^ well, don't just refrain from commenting altogether. i'm sure you do have pov's that will be helpful to our discussions. however, please understand that when our discussion turns to having to defend or explain our culture to a non-asian, that defeats the purpose of this forum - which is to allow for a place, a sanctuary, for us to freely discuss our perspectives. you see, this isn't something that we can normally do in real life, as asian voices often aren't heard in light of our relatively small population, lack of political or media respresentation, etc.

alright...back on topic :)

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I hope this is an appropriate forum for me to say just how annoyed I'm starting to get at the people who complain about all the immigrants who (ohnoes) REFUSE to learn English!!!! Or the growing multilingualism in the US. (What a boring place this country would be if everyone spoke the same language.)
If enough people in your neighborhood speak a non-English language, such that it's inconveniencing you, perhaps you should learn that language. If not, then what's the problem?

I mean, if you're a mechanic and enough people in your neighborhood decide they want to drive European cars, what are you going to say? "They should drive American cars instead"? Or are you going to learn how to work with European cars?
Look, you've made this point several times, and it's starting to degenerate into a perfect example example of something that really pisses me off about my fellow polyglots: the assumption that everyone else has the time, the skill, and the resources to learn a foreign language equally well, and that either they want to, or if they don't, they're lazy or racist for not wanting to. Some people just can't get it, in the same way that others aren't good at math. Some people have more pressing concerns in their life.

Ever noticed the actual trajectory of multilingual societies? It's not some internationalist multicultural wet dream, nor does it result in very much empowerment for the linguistic minority. You get many monolingual proletariats, and a multilingual ruling class. The rich elite can afford send their kids to bilingual schools with high quality instruction and ample opportunities for socializing in the second language. In the mean time, the middle and lower classes of both linguistic groups, who tend to have very little chance to socialize with each other, fruitlessly waste tens of thousands of dollars and hours of effort trying to improve their language skills, chasing after a goal of fluency which is impossible to reach, because they know people will be judging them every day not based on their skills, or their intelligence, but on how well they can grunt sounds in rapid succession so that they make sense in someone else's way of talking.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Look, you've made this point several times, and it's starting to degenerate into a perfect example example of something that really pisses me off about my fellow polyglots: the assumption that everyone else has the time, the skill, and the resources to learn a foreign language equally well, and that either they want to, or if they don't, they're lazy or racist for not wanting to. Some people just can't get it, in the same way that others aren't good at math. Some people have more pressing concerns in their life.

Nobody is blaming people for not taking the time to learn another language. I'm saying that these people in turn don't have a right to complain just because someone else (in this case, a business owner in probably an ethnic enclave like Chinatown) doesn't speak the language they speak and say shit like "they're causing me inconvenience". You don't wanna learn Japanese? Fine. You don't have easy access to the services or materials that will let you practice your verb conjugations? Fine. But don't start bitching at a Japanese restaurant if you find that the people there either don't speak English or have horrible English pronunciation. If it's justifiable that the customer doesn't have the time or motivation to learn Chinese to interact with the Chinese store owner, it's justifiable that the Chinese store owner does not feel the need to learn English for whatever reason(s).

Yet, my point was precisely that this is not a mere "pet peeve" to those who complain.

Of course it's not. It often turns into a more serious problem. A problem that only the complainer is responsible for blowing out of proportion and dealing with (preferably by smacking himself/herself upside the head for being intolerant), and nobody else. That's my point, regardless of how big of a problem non-English-speaking store owners seem to be to some people.

[hkRT]

This might seem like a pet peeve but it becomes a more serious issue when people choose to escalate it into a race issue (which for some it actually is).

I wasn't saying you were one of those racist fucks. I guess I didn't say it clearly. I didn't know enough about the woman who you were talking about.... how old she was, whether she spoke a little bit of English or no english at all, whether she wanted to speak English or not.

I was more thinking of those incidences that happened to some of my friends and family for real. Some of my friends don't speak very fluent English but they speak it okay enough to communicate, i.e. understandable. But they have experienced prejudice and discrimination from people and yes, people have ridiculed them and told them to go back home. I'm not escalating it. It's what happened. People just don't really try to listen to what they are saying, they are just brushing them off at the first sound of immigrant accents and treat them like dumbasses.

But I guess what I said doesn't apply to what you were talking about. I see where you were coming from about getting frustrated for not being able to communicate with the woman. But if there's respect for the other culture, wouldn't you be a bit interested to know what she's saying in her native tongue and maybe ask someone like your friend of 14 years a word or two about how to say hello in chinese or whatever non-english language it is. okay, some people may act like they never want to integrate into the bigger community, and it's not like I think ALL the people who have problems integrating are victims of racism. But a lot of people are, and so that's why I talked about it. I don't mean to always talk about race and stuff but it's just something that happens a lot of times and this is the rant forum!

You keep saying you keep her in business by being a patron and so it's the customer's right to demand good english abilities so that it doesn't inconvenience you.

I am sorry if I missed it or didn't read the entire thread, but what kind of business is she running again? What service is she providing? What products is she selling? What area in town is her business? What's her main clientele? Is it like a receptionist job at a big firm or something?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Post Deleted: Merged with previous post

[hkRT]

Yet, my point was precisely that this is not a mere "pet peeve" to those who complain. For that reason I chose to broach a subject that I know is "taboo".

No it's not a taboo. It's interesting to talk about these things.


Basically I want to share that when I complain about someone's lack of English skills it has nothing to do with race, wanting them to "go home", "hatin' on" their success,

I don't think you were racist or telling people to go home.


disrespect for their culture, or any of the other of reasons associated with this taboo complaint - "Lack of English Skills" - .. For most of us it's just a matter of our convenience.

Well, regarding disrespect for the culture, I sense some of that. But that's just my opinion. Many people don't think the same way I do.


That might not seem fair but that's the way we are raised in America (hence the "Ugly American syndrome that infects anyone who's been here long enough).

I'm not so sure about that. Who are "we"? Why is there always a "we" vs. "them" in the first place?

[kuilong]

Look, you've made this point several times, and it's starting to degenerate into a perfect example example of something that really pisses me off about my fellow polyglots: the assumption that everyone else has the time, the skill, and the resources to learn a foreign language equally well, and that either they want to, or if they don't, they're lazy or racist for not wanting to. Some people just can't get it, in the same way that others aren't good at math. Some people have more pressing concerns in their life.

As far as I can remember, I've made it exactly twice -- and you've quoted both of them above. I can remember this being discussed only once before on YW, and I purposely didn't get involved.

Of course, I never said learning languages are easy. I've pointed out several times before on this forum that learning languages is difficult, and requires a significant investment in time, energy and money. People, as a rule of thumb, don't learn new languages unless they absolutely have to. Which is why I don't understand the push to provide government forms and aid solely in English: what is this going to do but needlessly inconvenience non-English speakers?

Ever noticed the actual trajectory of multilingual societies? It's not some internationalist multicultural wet dream, nor does it result in very much empowerment for the linguistic minority. You get many monolingual proletariats, and a multilingual ruling class. The rich elite can afford send their kids to bilingual schools with high quality instruction and ample opportunities for socializing in the second language. In the mean time, the middle and lower classes of both linguistic groups, who tend to have very little chance to socialize with each other, fruitlessly waste tens of thousands of dollars and hours of effort trying to improve their language skills, chasing after a goal of fluency which is impossible to reach, because they know people will be judging them every day not based on their skills, or their intelligence, but on how well they can grunt sounds in rapid succession so that they make sense in someone else's way of talking.

Honestly, you're making my point for me. I find the amount of complaining about the hypothetical refuseniks who don't learn English baffling, frankly -- immigrants to the US by the droves have shown an amazing willingness and ability to learn English, certainly in far greater numbers than ever before in American history. Why they do is obvious: they don't like having to take along their children when they go to the doctor's office, or having their career opportunities severely curtailed by their lack of knowledge of English. It's embarassing, and it seems to be a consistent urban legend that those who don't learn English in this country don't do so largely because they don't want to.

No doubt that's the situation in Malaysia; what about Belgium or Switzerland? Neither situation is anything analogous to the US, where an insignificant number of second-generation immigrants aren't fluent in English. I find it interesting that these people often frame the issue as a matter of politeness, which ignores the fact that the US is deeply addicted to cheap labor. Obviously this usually benefits the upper class, but sometimes the middle class as well: wouldn't you rather hire a cheap illegal worker to remodel your house? This is more of a provider-consumer relationship than a host-guest one.

The point I was trying to make was that I don't understand the idea that immigrants "should" learn English; you might as well say that we "should" learn the minority language, if we live in an area where it's widely spoken. If anything, the latter claim makes more sense than the former claim -- but people never learned languages because they "should", but because they need to. And you don't create that need by pontificating at them, or by forcing them to deal with the government only in English. (How do you do it? Aside from the fact that it's hardly necessary in the US, providing media that people want in the language is a good start)

[rotrab]

Frankly, if you live in America you should know at least some English. Enough to get by. The idea of getting by without it is, shall we say, myopic. Just how well CAN you get by without knowing English in a country where nearly everyone speaks it--often to the exclusion of any other language? Only by cutting yourself off and isolating yourself in a small community can you "get by" without knowing English and I'm not sure that can be properly called "getting by." That kind of isolation in America is devastating on the AA communities--forever relegating them to foreigner status.

As for losing your Asian heritage via mixing--well, if your cultural hold is so weak that you lose it by marrying outside that culture, how worthy is that culture then? Seems to me, if it has value then it will be preserved as a matter of course because letting it go is simply unthinkable, not an option. If Asian culture is so easily shunted aside then it is probably not worth much. Harsh words perhaps but--gee whiz, folks, prove me wrong then. That's all you have to do--I would be very happy to be proven wrong. If you have a strong grip on your Asian culture then you have nothing to complain about.

[tapestrybabe]

I hope this is an appropriate forum for me to say just how annoyed I'm starting to get at the people who complain about all the immigrants who (ohnoes) REFUSE to learn English!!!! Or the growing multilingualism in the US. (What a boring place this country would be if everyone spoke the same language.)

but i think knowing english is important tho...
if you want to succeed in america...

i know this korean immigrant family...
the korean father use to be an engineer in korea...
but he's now deduced working here
at a mere laundrymat
here in the united states...
of course, i'm not trying to put down
those who work at laundrymats...
i'm just saying the father gave up
a fuckin lot to move here...
so did the mother...
she use to be a teacher in korea...
but she gave up her career...
and is now just a housewife here in the states...

and my way of thinking sometimes is...
why doesnt this korean family
go back from where they came from...
since well, they were more successful
over in korea anyways...
they wouldnt have to struggle so much...

but the parents moved here...
cuz of their children...
to give more opportunity to them...
and i believe... if the children are gonna
continue to live in the united states...
and if they want to get past...
and do more what their parents are doing...
they better learn english if they wanna advance...

[SunWuKong]

Frankly, if you live in America you should know at least some English. Enough to get by. The idea of getting by without it is, shall we say, myopic. Just how well CAN you get by without knowing English in a country where nearly everyone speaks it--often to the exclusion of any other language? Only by cutting yourself off and isolating yourself in a small community can you "get by" without knowing English and I'm not sure that can be properly called "getting by." That kind of isolation in America is devastating on the AA communities--forever relegating them to foreigner status.

but the reality is, American "diversity" has turned into ethnic self-segregation and ethnic enclaves. and in my opinion, those who never learnt English or don't speak it that well don't seem to mind knowing that they're in a sort of "outsider" status in the country, or at least when they are not in their ethnic enclaves. it's only those that have grown up being "Asian American", speaking fluent English, that want to illustrate that they're just as American as everybody else. so are we really in a position to speak for them when we say that their poor English abilities are detrimental to AA communities because it relegates them to the foreigner status? i personally don't think so. i think the AA identity just needs to deal with the fact that many Asian Americans are immigrants who feel more like they're displaced from their "homelands" than like they're discriminated minorities in their own country.

[kuilong]

Frankly, if you live in America you should know at least some English. Enough to get by. The idea of getting by without it is, shall we say, myopic. Just how well CAN you get by without knowing English in a country where nearly everyone speaks it--often to the exclusion of any other language? Only by cutting yourself off and isolating yourself in a small community can you "get by" without knowing English and I'm not sure that can be properly called "getting by." That kind of isolation in America is devastating on the AA communities--forever relegating them to foreigner status.

This seems to assume learning languages is a simple affair, and those who don't speak it don't want to. But as I said above, it's really not. Who, exactly, is going to pay for these ESL classes? Even if they do get free classes, how about the times and locations of the classes? The transportation? How about child care, will that be provided?

It may be pragmatic for immigrants to learn English, but I never see these pragmatism arguments being directed against English speakers. If the proliferation of Spanish-language establishments in your area annoy you, and it's really so easy to learn languages, then why don't you learn Spanish?

Amazingly enough, not all immigrants have the resources a middle-class, educated person does to learn new languages.

My very first post was directed at a certain breed of anti-immigrationist who believes that people should learn languages, as it's the polite thing to do -- being a good citizen and all. "After all", they say, "if I were to move to Japan, I'd learn Japanese!" (And if you were to move to Belgium, then what would you learn? Belgian?) "And in order to encourage the immigrants to fit in and learn the language, like my grandparents and great-grandparents did when they came (not!), we should make sure the immigrants speak English before we let them in here. Or at least, make the government deal with them in English. That'll shame 'em into learning!"

I don't think there are any such people here on YW.

they better learn english if they wanna advance...

If they go to English-medium schools, then they'll probably end up speaking fluent English regardless of whether or not they want to. Heck, they probably would even if they went to Korean-language schools.

[tapestrybabe]

If they go to English-medium schools, then they'll probably end up speaking fluent English regardless of whether or not they want to. Heck, they probably would even if they went to Korean-language schools.

i think that depends on where you live...
if your living in a community where you dont
have to speak english...
it can be difficult...
especially when your resistant in
wanting to learn english in the first place...

this one korean girl that i know...
she's here to apply to college...
and i see her having the most
difficult time here adjusting compared
to her other sisters...
she failed her toefl test several times...
and its not that she's incapable...
but i just feel she just doesnt want to
really have to speak english...
which i think is fine...
if she feels comfortable speaking
in her native language...
and if she prefers speaking
amongst ppl who share the
same language as her...

i just see her having a
difficult time getting anywhere...
if she doesnt apply herself to learn tho...

[kasia]

perhaps this (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?p=374177#post374177) is multiculturalism at its best :)

[loserbutt]

why can't blacks and Latinos stop dropping out of high school? it would make my life so much easier if i paid less taxes that go to paying for their welfare.


(yes that was sarcasm.)

oh god. and he's an admin.

seriously, if you move to a foreign country, you better as hell learn the native language.

[asvenus]

My very first post was directed at a certain breed of anti-immigrationist who believes that people should learn languages, as it's the polite thing to do -- being a good citizen and all. "After all", they say, "if I were to move to Japan, I'd learn Japanese!" (And if you were to move to Belgium, then what would you learn? Belgian?) "And in order to encourage the immigrants to fit in and learn the language, like my grandparents and great-grandparents did when they came (not!), we should make sure the immigrants speak English before we let them in here. Or at least, make the government deal with them in English. That'll shame 'em into learning!"

sounds sick bordering on racist doesnt it?? well welcome to the UK and its most recent addition to its immigration policy!! yes i want to leave this island..soon...

[AliBabaIncorporated]

How is it racist or sick to desire that people learn the community language, exactly? I'd say it's racist to stereotype all of them and their kids as not doing so when they are, but that's a different story entirely.

HK society would be better off if the people from overseas in HK, or at least their kids, would bother to learn more Cantonese. It would help REAL multiculturalism and internationalism here (not to mention increasing social contacts between various communities, which would probably also mean more diverse kinds of HKers getting the chance to practice English and other foreign languages, thus breaking the monopoly the rich elites have on bilingualism). But I guess it's understandable that they don't, since many of them are only temporary residents. (And probably connected to this, HK people think of virtually all of them as temporary residents).

Conversely, American mythology thinks of every foreigner within its borders as an immigrant who has come to stay (regardless of the actual fact that a lot of them are de facto guest workers). Even the term "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented immigrant" as opposed to "illegal overstayer" or "illegal worker" points to this mentality.

[kusojiji]

this one korean girl that i know...
she's here to apply to college...
and i see her having the most
difficult time here adjusting compared
to her other sisters...
she failed her toefl test several times...
...


What do you mean "failed"? Its not a pass/fail test.

This seems to assume learning languages is a simple affair, and those who don't speak it don't want to. But as I said above, it's really not. Who, exactly, is going to pay for these ESL classes? Even if they do get free classes, how about the times and locations of the classes? The transportation? How about child care, will that be provided?.


I don't know about the situation in South Africa, but if one lives in a city in the US (and immigrants tend to do so) there are many programs and policies to help make it possible. And frankly, if you really want to learn you're gonna try pretty hard to get there somehow. Most immigrants are very eager to learn and make great efforts to do so.

[tapestrybabe]

What do you mean "failed"? Its not a pass/fail test.

she didnt get the proper score...
her college was looking for...
it was way too low...

[kusojiji]

she didnt get the proper score...
her college was looking for...
it was way too low...


Bummer. The good thing is that you can take it once a month until you get that score.

[Emkae]

No it's not a taboo. It's interesting to talk about these things.

I'm glad you feel that way, I agree.

Well, regarding disrespect for the culture, I sense some of that. But that's just my opinion. Many people don't think the same way I do.?

I hope you do not see that in my tone or comments…I am at times am curious, intrigued, confused, intimidated, perplexed, interested…but never intentionally disrespectful.

I'm not so sure about that. Who are "we"? Why is there always a "we" vs. "them" in the first place?

I think the "we" are the ones who, by virtue of having been "here" for a given period of time, have been "encouraged" to forget about viable cultures around the world that do not revolve around the way "we" do things "here"…
I think the "we" vs. "them" (those who are singled out as being "different" than what "we're" used to) scenario exists because it serves whatever current power structure to "divide and conquer"… I believe there's a way to overcome that based on redefining "we" and "them".

[kuilong]

How is it racist or sick to desire that people learn the community language, exactly? I'd say it's racist to stereotype all of them and their kids as not doing so when they are, but that's a different story entirely.

I don't think it's racist or sick, but leaving everything else aside, how do you propose to get these people to learn Cantonese?

[sageb1]

it's time to rise above the differences between cultures, and try to celebrate the similarities.

That's what multiculturalism is about, not just celebrating the differences and excluding the best of other cultures.

For each culture has echoes of other cultures in it, albeit only seen by the few people who have truly risen above their own culture.