Kindergarten bible classes

[Faithless]

Boston Globe story off the API (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/02/13/bible_classes_for_va_students_challenged/)

By Zinie Chen Sampson, Associated Press | February 13, 2005

STAUNTON, Va. -- When Heather and Logan Ward's son entered public kindergarten last fall, they were shocked to learn that pupils were taken from class to a nearby church for weekly Bible lessons.

The Wards moved to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley from New York four years ago, and were unaware of the tradition that has remained in Staunton and other rural schools for more than 60 years.

''My reaction is exactly like the reaction of those who come here from a different place -- shock and disbelief that we have Bible classes in public schools," Heather Ward said.

Now the Wards and other parents are asking the school board to eliminate or modify the program, which shuttles students in first through third grades to churches during class time for voluntary half-hour Christian lessons and activities.

But the dissenters have met staunch resistance. More than 400 people showed up to weigh in on the issue at a contentious school board meeting in December, and more than 1,000 signed a petition urging the school board to keep the classes.

The six-member board is scheduled to decide the issue tomorrow.

Jack Hinton, president of the local private group that offers the lessons, attributes the opposition to a small minority, many of them newcomers to the valley. Without religious classes, he said, ''kids get into trouble and have no moral structure on which to combat drugs, sex, pornography, and all that."

But many opponents are Staunton natives. They say children who opt out are stigmatized and have little to do while their classmates are in Bible classes, taking away precious time for academics in the age of standardized testing.

The classes began in Virginia in 1929 after a majority of students failed a simple Bible test. The lessons were taught inside public school classrooms until 1948, when the Supreme Court ruled that the lessons violated the principle of separation of church and state. A few years later, the court revisited the issue and approved classes held off school premises.

Most towns have eliminated the classes, but the 20 school divisions that have kept the classes generally stretch along Interstate 81 in western Virginia, known to some as the state's Bible Belt. In the Staunton area, more than 80 percent of first-, second-, and third-graders participate.

''The people in those communities still have strong Christian faith and want their children to learn this," said JoAnne Shirley, state director of Weekday Religious Education, the private group that offers the lessons.

Although no lawsuits have been filed, the local chapter of the group has hired a lawyer, Gil Davis, who once represented Paula Jones in her sexual harassment lawsuit against President Clinton. The group also is working with the Rutherford Institute, a center in Charlottesville that defends Christian rights.

John Whitehead, president of the institute, said the classes ''are wholly consistent with the First Amendment and this nation's religious heritage."

But opponents say the classes are divisive and note that the schools also have character-education classes, which teach children about right and wrong without religion. ''Christians don't have a monopoly on morality," said Renee Staton, a Staunton native.

[Hiroshi2]

Why is everybody so surprised about this? We have prayer at school assemblies (where people do call on the name of Jesus specifically), Bible Club (I know that's not mandatory or anything, but still), etc.



Well I guess the only logical conclusion is that this is not the way it is in every state, or in every school district or whatever.

[TB4000]

I do agree with the separation of religion and education, but unless they can get it nationally sanctioned, those wacky Virginia clans can do whatever they want, apparantly.

[Trowa Sky]

what so bad about that?? man forget those people keep the bible in the school even if you don't believe in it, it still teaches good values, and morals.

[BeTheReds]

what so bad about that?? man forget those people keep the bible in the school even if you don't believe in it, it still teaches good values, and morals.


It also teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that anyone who believes in him will live forever, which most people who aren't Christians don't want their children to be taught in school.

Giving kids the right to choose whether to study the bible after school together is one thing, but shuttling kids to church during class hours is totally wrong.

[Trowa Sky]

i don't know for some reason i don't know why people are bitching about this. WHAT's so bad about JESUS??? I mean come on! If you don't want your kids to believe in Him then just tell your kids not too when they get home, i mean they're gonna hear these things anyways. ANd so what if they hear about Jesus? Is that really so bad? Or the parents can just home school them or send them somewhere else. Or just shut up and deal. Alot of my teachers at school are gay, and they express their views on homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, and no one seems to mind, but the minute Jesus comes up it's like " Oh NO I don't want that here!"

[BeTheReds]

i don't know for some reason i don't know why people are bitching about this. WHAT's so bad about JESUS??? Well if you're a Jew, practically everything is bad about JESUS, who in your eyes would be a liar who claimed to be the messiah. That's just Judiasm, now thrown in the theological ramifications of what the Christian version of Jesus represents for Muslims? Hindus? Athiests?


I mean come on! If you don't want your kids to believe in Him then just tell your kids not to when they get home,
Yea, that'll work. Kids (esp younger ones) will take anything a teacher says as undisputed fact.


i mean they're gonna hear these things anyways. ANd so what if they hear about Jesus? Is that really so bad?

See above.

Or the parents can just home school them or send them somewhere else. Or just shut up and deal.
Try homeschooling when both parents have to work. Try sending them somwhere else when you don't have either money (for private school) or time (to drive their asses to school every morning, forcing them to take the state provided bus.) It's not that simple. The school system should deal, not the other way around.


Alot of my teachers at school are gay, and they express their views on homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, and no one seems to mind, but the minute Jesus comes up it's like " Oh NO I don't want that here!"

The issue is totally different. There aren't classes that teach the benefits of being gay to children in schools. They don't learn that being gay is perfectly okay and acceptable during class time.

What's at issue is that children are being taken from school, during class hours, to go learn about the bible. No one would have an issue if the teacher came out and said he or she was a christian. The issue only comes up once the teacher or the school starts trying to instil christian beliefs into the students.

[Leviticus]

Giving kids the right to choose whether to study the bible after school together is one thing, but shuttling kids to church during class hours is totally wrong.

are you talking about parents that send their kids to religious schools?

[Faithless]

Alot of my teachers at school are gay, and they express their views on homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, and no one seems to mind...
They do this in a religious way?

Is this the case where you're saying that if someone else gets to teach something wrong, then we ought to be given the same chance to teach something wrong?

I think you really hit the nail on the head with one of your other statements -- "Or the parents can just home school them or send them somewhere else. Or just shut up and deal."

This just proves why a bIBLE class would be the wrong thing to teach -- you wanna give your finger to those who don't care for it. Children don't need that sort of hostility in school.

[deez nuts]

nothing wrong with instilling the fear of jesus into young minds.

[achtungbaby]

nothing wrong with instilling the fear of jesus into young minds.
Indeed. A healthy fear of something almighty can be an effective pacification tool.

[kitty]

i don't know for some reason i don't know why people are bitching about this. WHAT's so bad about JESUS??? I mean come on! If you don't want your kids to believe in Him then just tell your kids not too when they get home, i mean they're gonna hear these things anyways. ANd so what if they hear about Jesus? Is that really so bad? Or the parents can just home school them or send them somewhere else. Or just shut up and deal. Alot of my teachers at school are gay, and they express their views on homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, and no one seems to mind, but the minute Jesus comes up it's like " Oh NO I don't want that here!"

there's nothing bad about Jesus. That isn't even up for debate.

but there is an infringement upon our civil liberties and the separation of church and state when a *publicly-funded* school is teaching children about the 'greatness of Jesus'. Even if one wanted to argue a historical teaching of Jesus as being acceptable (i.e. 'there is this religion called Christianity and this is the bare facts of what they believe, etc etc') this isn't it. This is a bible study class in which kids are being taught to believe in God and Jesus. They're being taught that there is one religion better than any other religion because it's being sanctioned by the State and taught in schools -- this gives Christianity an undue elevation over other religions and specifically violates the First Amendment.

sure, religion in schools isn't a bad thing. If you're paying for private school.

And this is nothing like 'having a gay teacher'. This would be like having a gay teacher take his class to a gay club and trying to tell them all to 'convert' to homosexuality.

[Faithless]

there's nothing bad about Jesus. That isn't even up for debate.
There can be if people start putting words into his mouth -- claiming he said this and that about everything under the evangelical view of morality.

That's where this bible teaching can start to get dangerous. When Jesus becomes a tool to condemn. :frown:

[sOKaLiBoY]

shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not forced to read/learn the bible

[Yeahman]

but there is an infringement upon our civil liberties and the separation of church and state when a *publicly-funded* school is teaching children about the 'greatness of Jesus'. Even if one wanted to argue a historical teaching of Jesus as being acceptable (i.e. 'there is this religion called Christianity and this is the bare facts of what they believe, etc etc') this isn't it. This is a bible study class in which kids are being taught to believe in God and Jesus. They're being taught that there is one religion better than any other religion because it's being sanctioned by the State and taught in schools -- this gives Christianity an undue elevation over other religions and specifically violates the First Amendment.
I agree for the most part. I think kids should be taught about religion including even Bible study. But it should be taught from a "this is what Christianity teaches" perspective or even discussions on what the authors were trying to convey not a "this is Jesus Christ who saves your soul" perspective.

And this is nothing like 'having a gay teacher'. This would be like having a gay teacher take his class to a gay club and trying to tell them all to 'convert' to homosexuality.
hahahaha


Anyway, I was raised in the NYC public school system. Very little religion taught in school. I took one class in high school were we read from the Bible but from a more literary standpoint. We had a modified version of the 10 commandments in my 3rd grade class. And once, after class, one physics teacher in high school was explaining to the few of us who remained that he believed in intelligent creation.
But living in a predominately Catholic neighborhood, some kids were allowed to leave school a little earlier to attend classes at private Catholic schools. In some classes this meant that half the students would have to leave early. There was never any stigma attached to the kids who didn't go though and no public funds were ever used.

shouldn't be a problem as long as they are not forced to read/learn the bible
There's nothing wrong with even being forced to read or learn the Bible. But there's something wrong with being forced to believe it. And with impressionable young kids, it doesn't take much to coerce them.

[kitty]

I agree for the most part. I think kids should be taught about religion including even Bible study. But it should be taught from a "this is what Christianity teaches" perspective or even discussions on what the authors were trying to convey not a "this is Jesus Christ who saves your soul" perspective.


As long as similar attention were given to Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and any other religion, I think that would be fine. But in this case, we're talking about a daily or weekly forced Bible study in a church -- these kids were not being taken to a daily Koran study.


Anyway, I was raised in the NYC public school system. Very little religion taught in school. I took one class in high school were we read from the Bible but from a more literary standpoint. We had a modified version of the 10 commandments in my 3rd grade class. And once, after class, one physics teacher in high school was explaining to the few of us who remained that he believed in intelligent creation.
But living in a predominately Catholic neighborhood, some kids were allowed to leave school a little earlier to attend classes at private Catholic schools. In some classes this meant that half the students would have to leave early. There was never any stigma attached to the kids who didn't go though and no public funds were ever used.


It's a similar debate like if people should be allowed to discuss the etymology of racial epithets in schools or if the pain of slurs like the n-word or ch*nk are too sensitive for teaching. I believe that education is better than censorship, and so if would be unfair for Christianity to be ignored in a 'religion week' or some other middle school festival in which kids explore other religions designed to educate about other cultures.

But a lot of stuff like prayers in school are more of a conversion effort than an education effort.

[Yeahman]

There was something that pissed me off. Most NY state and city colleges get all the Jewish holidays off and none of the Christian holidays off except for Christmas which is during the winter break anyway. Maybe it's just a lack of organization or something. I think it's a worthy campaign.

[Trowa Sky]

dude for all i care, they can teach all religons at school. And no I'm not trying to relate the topic of HomoVS Hetro to Jesus nor make it religious. I'm just saying there are worse things people can be worring about and protest. So your kid decides he/she wants to believe in Jesus, so what? If you love the kid and their not hurting themselves then what's the big deal? Most of the kids at myschool who are religious ( any religion besides Jedi ) normally do good in school and stay outta trouble. I don't want to give my finger to people who don't believe in Jesus, but it's like, dude.......... chill, it's not like they're teaching your kids satanism.

.......oh and that comment about the gay teacher taking students to a gay bar by Kitty had me laughing for like a good five minutes.

[pikachupacabra]

I believe the problem people have with this comes not from thinking that jesus or even religion in general are bad, it's that their public school which is state/federally supported, is, in many ways, sanctioning Christianity without giving the opportunity to learn any other religion, or having the opportunity to not learn a religion (i.e. children who opt out are stigmitized).

There's is nothing wrong with a bible trip; there is nothing wrong with religion; there are many things good about jesus; however, it should be kept separate from a mandatory, state-sanctioned activity such as school.

our forefathers were all very religious people, but they knew the danger of tying in religion into state.

[kitty]

There was something that pissed me off. Most NY state and city colleges get all the Jewish holidays off and none of the Christian holidays off except for Christmas which is during the winter break anyway. Maybe it's just a lack of organization or something. I think it's a worthy campaign.

really? because cornell, which has state-endowed colleges, gets no holidays off except for christmas. we certainly don't get jewish holidays off specifically -- we don't even get stuff like labor day or MLK day.

dude for all i care, they can teach all religons at school. And no I'm not trying to relate the topic of HomoVS Hetro to Jesus nor make it religious. I'm just saying there are worse things people can be worring about and protest. So your kid decides he/she wants to believe in Jesus, so what? If you love the kid and their not hurting themselves then what's the big deal? Most of the kids at myschool who are religious ( any religion besides Jedi ) normally do good in school and stay outta trouble. I don't want to give my finger to people who don't believe in Jesus, but it's like, dude.......... chill, it's not like they're teaching your kids satanism.

.......oh and that comment about the gay teacher taking students to a gay bar by Kitty had me laughing for like a good five minutes.

dude... you really don't get it. it's not about a kid being christian. it's about public schools teaching kids to be a certain religion.

first of all, trowa, would you feel the same way if a teacher were taking their entire kindergarten class to mosque everyday and teaching them to be muslim? or satanism, even (which incidentally isn't a 'bad' religion. it gets a bad rap, but my understanding of satanism is that it's about understanding of self rather than of a universal creator... more info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism)?

it's about first amendment rights and about whether or not it's cool for teachers to take the tax money of everybody to indoctrinate children on a specific religion however positive or negative that religion might be. it's about not having one religion elevated over any other and how that affects everyone's freedom to practice religion and the establishment clause of the first amendment. whether a kid being christian is a good kid is an interesting point, but that's not even what the debate is about.

[nola]

There is an infringement upon our civil liberties and the separation of church and state when a *publicly-funded* school is teaching children about the 'greatness of Jesus'. This is a bible study class in which kids are being taught to believe in God and Jesus. They're being taught that there is one religion better than any other religion because it's being sanctioned by the State and taught in schools -- this gives Christianity an undue elevation over other religions and specifically violates the First Amendment. This would be like having a gay teacher take his class to a gay club and trying to tell them all to 'convert' to homosexualityThis one's a keeper.

[BeTheReds]

are you talking about parents that send their kids to religious schools?


Not at all. I was talking about the article, which was about a public school.

[Faithless]

There's is nothing wrong with a bible trip; there is nothing wrong with religion; there are many things good about jesus; however, it should be kept separate from a mandatory, state-sanctioned activity such as school.

our forefathers were all very religious people, but they knew the danger of tying in religion into state.
I have been trying to find a good Christian church and it is difficult to find one that fits my view and new found understanding of the bible.

I think the idea of pitting the non-Christian against the Christian is only one argument against bible teaching in school.

I think the other side that doesn't get talked about as much is teaching Christianity in a way that might conflict with other Christians views of it.

For instance, if you come from a liberal theological view of Christianity, being aware that the bible would be tought with a conservative twist would be unsettling.

With that, there's probably as much a danger with teaching the bible in a limited fashion or with a particular idealogical bent.

Bible study should be for Sunday school.

But a comparative study would be a good alternative -- like many have mentioned -- where all faiths are studied. I think that is only fair.

[Yeahman]

really? because cornell, which has state-endowed colleges, gets no holidays off except for christmas. we certainly don't get jewish holidays off specifically -- we don't even get stuff like labor day or MLK day.
I was talking about SUNYs and CUNYs.
http://naples.cc.sunysb.edu/DoIT/ucal.nsf
Look at the fall semester calendar for Stony Brook. No class on Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Hashanah.
In the Spring, no class on MLK and Passover. But it looks like they moved spring break to coincide with Holy Week now. It wasn't the case a few years ago. I actually had class on Good Friday and some of the professors would tell students that they didn't have to come to class that day. But I'm not even sure I'm too happy about spring break coinciding with Holy Week.

[kitty]

I was talking about SUNYs and CUNYs.
http://naples.cc.sunysb.edu/DoIT/ucal.nsf
Look at the fall semester calendar for Stony Brook. No class on Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Hashanah.
In the Spring, no class on MLK and Passover. But it looks like they moved spring break to coincide with Holy Week now. It wasn't the case a few years ago. I actually had class on Good Friday and some of the professors would tell students that they didn't have to come to class that day. But I'm not even sure I'm too happy about spring break coinciding with Holy Week.

that doesn't seem to be across all SUNYs.

SUNY Fredonia has MLK and Thanksgiving off only
http://www.fredonia.edu/registrr/accalen.htm

SUNY Cobleskill also has only MLK and Thanksgiving off
http://www.cobleskill.edu/Calendar/Academic2004-2005.asp

SUNY Brockport doesn't even have MLK off
http://www.brockport.edu/calendar/

The reason I mentioned Cornell is because the state-endowed colleges tend to follow the vacation guidelines of any other SUNY school.

The students at Stony Brook seem to be a unique case. Googling 'SUNY academic calendar' I got a list of several calendars none of which seem to reflect Stony Brooks. My guess would be that Stony Brook has a high Jewish population which may have reworked their calendar to reflect the desires of most of the students. If I were there, I might protest it.

Also as a thought, student government has the ability to suggest a change in holiday scheduling, essentially moving a winter break day up to act as a campus-wide holiday. It's usually a *very* unpopular move because it tends to screw with class schedule...

edit: I googled 'SUNY Academic Calendar Yom Kippur' and did get a few hits of schools who observe religious holidays. However, the vast majority seem to be like Suny Cortland (http://www.cortland.edu/resources/2005.html) which simply says no exams or quizzes will be held on religious holidays so students have the option to skip class with no academic consequences. My question to you, ye110man, is if you feel Good Friday should not be observed as well, or are you simply protesting the observance of Jewish holidays?

edit2: the observance of religious holidays at SUNYs seem to be at a certain amount of discretion of the sitting president. SUNY New Paltz has this letter to the faculty in which the president shifts the calendar around to allow for the observance of JudeoChristian holidays.
http://www.newpaltz.edu/president/ac.html

[Yeahman]

The students at Stony Brook seem to be a unique case. Googling 'SUNY academic calendar' I got a list of several calendars none of which seem to reflect Stony Brooks. My guess would be that Stony Brook has a high Jewish population which may have reworked their calendar to reflect the desires of most of the students. If I were there, I might protest it.
Probably more Jewish students than most coleges but they are still outnumbered by the Christians.

edit: I googled 'SUNY Academic Calendar Yom Kippur' and did get a few hits of schools who observe religious holidays. However, the vast majority seem to be like Suny Cortland (http://www.cortland.edu/resources/2005.html) which simply says no exams or quizzes will be held on religious holidays so students have the option to skip class with no academic consequences. My question to you, ye110man, is if you feel Good Friday should not be observed as well, or are you simply protesting the observance of Jewish holidays?
If a school has a large enough Jewish population, they should naturally get Jewish holidays off. But I'm just not happy that the same consideration isn't afforded to Christians.
I see no class on Good Friday as a given and it shouldn't coincide with spring break. I think there should be no class after like 5 starting on Holy Thursday.
I know that at Stony Brook the Catholic population far outnumbers the Jewish population so I would like to see the Immaculate Conception (fall), All Saints Day (fall), Ascension (spring), Ash Wednesday (spring), and Assumption (summer if applicable) as days off. At the very least there should be no classes before 12. I don't think 2 half days (Ash Wednesday and Ascension) and 1 day off (Good Friday) for the spring semester and 0-2 half days in the fall and 0-1 half day in the summer depending on which day of the week the holiday falls on, is asking for much for a school where the most widely practiced religion is Catholicism.

[SunWuKong]

Easter is actually a public holiday in HK. go figure.

[Faithless]

Easter is actually a public holiday in HK. go figure.
A holiday's a holiday, I guess.

Some schools' Easter vacation became Spring Recess.

Columbus Day for some is now Indigenous Peoples Day.

Just look the other way and go shopping on it.

[kitty]

why do you consider good friday a 'given'?

incidentally, religious holidays seem like fun, but why shouldn't spring break fall on a religious holiday? what's your rationale for that assertion? the day is not supposed to be for you to have fun, observed holidays are intended to allow those practicing an opportunity to attend religious functions. spring break falling on that day allows you to do so.

as far as the rest of the holidays you list, let me just say that the reason why colleges tend to shy towards fewer holidays off is usually purely pragmatic -- large lab courses like an intro chem class which has lab every single day for different students in the class must teach the same material at every lab to prevent any one section from getting too far ahead of any other section. If you take one day off in a week, every class during that week has to take that week off to make sure everyone's going at the same pace -- there's simply not enough space or resources to make up that class later in the week -- every section uses all labspace available and all the sections are filled to capacity.

Also, academic years are must be a certain length of days. So, you don't have the option to just add and subtract days from the school year: if you want to observe all those Catholic holidays, you'd have to take those days from somewhere -- spring break, summer or winter break.

I don't know the numbers of practicing Catholics at Stony Brook, but I know that at Cornell, the Jewish population is a good 20% of the school -- while not outnumbering traditional Christian or Catholics, they make up a good portion of the school. If you are going to make the university observe EVERY Catholic holiday, why *should* Jews not get the same courtesy? Or Buddhists for that matter? Not every Catholic goes to church on the days you mentioned, and for the non-Catholics, all those religious holidays mean nothing.

in a democracy, it's mob rule, those with the greatest numbers get the greatest say. but as a racial minority, we should know that this doesn't always offer the best interest of the whole for the majority to rule what happens, sometimes you need to take into consideration the interests of the people with the numerical minority, in order to ensure that they are not being oppressed or mistreated by those with the majority population.

[pikachupacabra]

On a side note about holidays, I recently learned that high schools in San Francisco now give Asian children the option of taking the Lunar New Year off. I thought that was a nice pick up.

Then, should holidays be divided up into the constituent groups? Should the heavily african american schools get kwaanza, while the Jewish-laden schools get roshananah, the Christian ones easter, the Asian ones lunar new year, the mexican ones dia de los muertos?

[sOKaLiBoY]

On a side note about holidays, I recently learned that high schools in San Francisco now give Asian children the option of taking the Lunar New Year off. I thought that was a nice pick up.

Then, should holidays be divided up into the constituent groups? Should the heavily african american schools get kwaanza, while the Jewish-laden schools get roshananah, the Christian ones easter, the Asian ones lunar new year, the mexican ones dia de los muertos?


why not just observe the regular united states national holidays? why do other ethnic specific holidays have to be observed?

[Yeahman]

why do you consider good friday a 'given'?
The death of Jesus Christ is one of the most important occassions in all of Christiandom. It's at least as important as Passover is for the Jews. If any day off for religious observance should be given it should be Good Friday (Easter is always on a Sunday and Christmas is during the winter break).

incidentally, religious holidays seem like fun, but why shouldn't spring break fall on a religious holiday? what's your rationale for that assertion? the day is not supposed to be for you to have fun, observed holidays are intended to allow those practicing an opportunity to attend religious functions. spring break falling on that day allows you to do so.
No it doesn't. Spring break is for Cancun. It would be real messed up if a religious holiday fell right in the middle of spring break. That messes up the whole week.

as far as the rest of the holidays you list, let me just say that the reason why colleges tend to shy towards fewer holidays off is usually purely pragmatic -- large lab courses like an intro chem class which has lab every single day for different students in the class must teach the same material at every lab to prevent any one section from getting too far ahead of any other section. If you take one day off in a week, every class during that week has to take that week off to make sure everyone's going at the same pace -- there's simply not enough space or resources to make up that class later in the week -- every section uses all labspace available and all the sections are filled to capacity.

Also, academic years are must be a certain length of days. So, you don't have the option to just add and subtract days from the school year: if you want to observe all those Catholic holidays, you'd have to take those days from somewhere -- spring break, summer or winter break.

I don't know the numbers of practicing Catholics at Stony Brook, but I know that at Cornell, the Jewish population is a good 20% of the school -- while not outnumbering traditional Christian or Catholics, they make up a good portion of the school. If you are going to make the university observe EVERY Catholic holiday, why *should* Jews not get the same courtesy? Or Buddhists for that matter? Not every Catholic goes to church on the days you mentioned, and for the non-Catholics, all those religious holidays mean nothing.

in a democracy, it's mob rule, those with the greatest numbers get the greatest say. but as a racial minority, we should know that this doesn't always offer the best interest of the whole for the majority to rule what happens, sometimes you need to take into consideration the interests of the people with the numerical minority, in order to ensure that they are not being oppressed or mistreated by those with the majority population.
Again, I'm not arguing for removing Jewish holidays. I'm for including Christian holidays. If a school isn't going to observe any holidays then so be it. But it does seem a bit unfair that a minority like Jewish students receives more consideration than a plurality like Catholic students.
If a school has a large Buddhist population, they should get Buddhist holidays off. At a school where the Catholic population is near negligable, they don't need to get Catholic holidays off.

Then, should holidays be divided up into the constituent groups? Should the heavily african american schools get kwaanza, while the Jewish-laden schools get roshananah, the Christian ones easter, the Asian ones lunar new year, the mexican ones dia de los muertos?
Yes if the holiday is major enough to warrent it. I don't think we need to have days like Valentine's day off.

why not just observe the regular united states national holidays? why do other ethnic specific holidays have to be observed?
To be culturally sensative to the needs of different regions. If a large number of students are forced to either skip class or forgo religious observance, I think the needs of the students outweigh the inconvenience of the school to move days around.

[kitty]

The death of Jesus Christ is one of the most important occassions in all of Christiandom. It's at least as important as Passover is for the Jews. If any day off for religious observance should be given it should be Good Friday (Easter is always on a Sunday and Christmas is during the winter break).


And to non-Christians, it means nothing. I mean, given this previous passage, is there any wonder that there are those that argue that the position that Christianity currently enjoys ALREADY breaks the Establishment Clause?


No it doesn't. Spring break is for Cancun. It would be real messed up if a religious holiday fell right in the middle of spring break. That messes up the whole week.


So your rationale is that university MUST give you the ability to go to Mass AND go to Cancun?



Again, I'm not arguing for removing Jewish holidays. I'm for including Christian holidays. If a school isn't going to observe any holidays then so be it. But it does seem a bit unfair that a minority like Jewish students receives more consideration than a plurality like Catholic students.

Puh-leeze. The entire country takes off Christmas and Easter. There are no national Jewish holidays that the entire country takes off.


If a school has a large Buddhist population, they should get Buddhist holidays off. At a school where the Catholic population is near negligable, they don't need to get Catholic holidays off.


See again my argument about majority/minority politics and your statements.


To be culturally sensative to the needs of different regions. If a large number of students are forced to either skip class or forgo religious observance, I think the needs of the students outweigh the inconvenience of the school to move days around.

your religion is your private thing -- the only thing the university is required to do is not penalize someone who choose to observe a religious holiday by either failing them or not allowing them to reschedule an exam. there is nothing you have offered yet that justifies the university actually forcing others to adjust their academic schedules for your religious obligations.

[hooligan]

No, I don't hate Jesus, but I don't think religion should be taught in public schools. The last time I checked we don't live in a theocracy, even though Bush is in the white house.

[kuilong]

Easter is actually a public holiday in HK. go figure.

But it falls on a Sunday.

ye110man: Some of those, like Ash Wednesday, aren't even days of obligation. In fact, in Canada, only Jan. 1 and Dec. 25 are Holy Days of Obligation; why should you want anything else off?

I mean, it's not like the shabat or Yom Kippur, where orthodox Jews aren't even allowed to work.

[Yeahman]

And to non-Christians, it means nothing. I mean, given this previous passage, is there any wonder that there are those that argue that the position that Christianity currently enjoys ALREADY breaks the Establishment Clause?
To me Labor Day means nothing. That's not the point.

So your rationale is that university MUST give you the ability to go to Mass AND go to Cancun?
Must? No. Idealy? Yes. You don't think universities should accomodate for its students to a reasonable degree?

Puh-leeze. The entire country takes off Christmas and Easter. There are no national Jewish holidays that the entire country takes off.
I wasn't talking about national holidays. I mean geez... do you support all oppression of Christianity on the premise that it enjoys national prestige?

See again my argument about majority/minority politics and your statements.
So what are you gonna do? The choices are to accomodate all students, no students, or most students.

your religion is your private thing -- the only thing the university is required to do is not penalize someone who choose to observe a religious holiday by either failing them or not allowing them to reschedule an exam. there is nothing you have offered yet that justifies the university actually forcing others to adjust their academic schedules for your religious obligations.
I'm not advocating force. Just some cultural sensativity.

No, I don't hate Jesus, but I don't think religion should be taught in public schools. The last time I checked we don't live in a theocracy, even though Bush is in the white house.
What does theocratic government have to do with learning about different beliefs?

ye110man: Some of those, like Ash Wednesday, aren't even days of obligation. In fact, in Canada, only Jan. 1 and Dec. 25 are Holy Days of Obligation; why should you want anything else off?
I'm not arguing for international holidays. I'm arguing for local minor adjustments to academic calendars to accomodate for the cultural practices of the students. Of course they would differ from region to region.
And Ash Wednesday is the only day I mentioned that isn't a holy day of obligation. It is however, an important day in the Catholic tradition and a day of fasting.

I mean, it's not like the shabat or Yom Kippur, where orthodox Jews aren't even allowed to work.
Catholics aren't supposed to work on holy days of obligation either though most in the US do. At the very least Catholics are supposed to attend Mass.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

How about we all just skip work and school days whenever we feel like it and then when people complain about us slacking off or taking days off to go on ski trips, we can accuse them of not being tolerant of our beliefs. I believe I should never have to work unless I feel like it, and if you think otherwise, you're a shithead for disregarding my feelings~ God knows that if people are at work but don't really wanna be there, they're just gonna spend the day playing Starcraft when the boss isn't watching or fucking around and talking shit next to the water cooler/vending machine anyway ^

[YuheiCarreau]

Puh-leeze. The entire country takes off Christmas and Easter. There are no national Jewish holidays that the entire country takes off.

Wait wait wait. Jews make up only 1% of the US population; Christians, around 80%. This is a democracy, and the overwhelming majority of Christians necessitates that major Christian holidays be recognized. I think ye110 has a point about Jews being given more consideration than they're due, although I think it has as much to do with lax attitudes towards religion among American Christians. To be honest, most of the Jews I know are just as secular, but because theirs is an ethnic identity as well as a religious one, they have stronger feelings about ignoring or downplaying Jewish holidays.

My personal pet peeve is "Winter Break" - when we break for Thanksgiving, we call it Thanksgiving. When we break for Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur, we say what it is, not something stupid like "Spring Semitic Identity Recognition Week".

Hell, if you think about it, there are more Asians in the US, and certainly more Asians on the average college campus than there are Jews. Colleges should start recognizing lunar new year, damnit!

[applehead]

Catholics aren't supposed to work on holy days of obligation either though most in the US do. At the very least Catholics are supposed to attend Mass.

i mean really for ash wednesday i either
had to take an upaid sick day from work,
go to mass at 6 in the morning before work
or go to mass at 8pm after work
or skip lunch and go to mass during my lunch
hour. it's really not fair.

[pikachupacabra]

Wait wait wait. Jews make up only 1% of the US population; Christians, around 80%. This is a democracy, and the overwhelming majority of Christians necessitates that major Christian holidays be recognized. I think ye110 has a point about Jews being given more consideration than they're due, although I think it has as much to do with lax attitudes towards religion among American Christians. To be honest, most of the Jews I know are just as secular, but because theirs is an ethnic identity as well as a religious one, they have stronger feelings about ignoring or downplaying Jewish holidays.

My personal pet peeve is "Winter Break" - when we break for Thanksgiving, we call it Thanksgiving. When we break for Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur, we say what it is, not something stupid like "Spring Semitic Identity Recognition Week".

Hell, if you think about it, there are more Asians in the US, and certainly more Asians on the average college campus than there are Jews. Colleges should start recognizing lunar new year, damnit!


at the same time, it's important to remember that while a democracy dictates that it's "power to the people", the bill of rights and constitution are there to make sure the majority do not trample all over the minority. Now, it can be debated whether or not that's actually true, but it still should not be right for a majority holiday to force the minority populace into taking days off, etc (see applehead's post above).

though, you are right that it is also not right for an overwhelming majority to get their own rights trampled upon by an overwheming minority.



What does theocratic government have to do with learning about different beliefs?



and that's exactly why it's wrong to have any single religion singled out for extra attention in, say, kindergarten. either make it broad band or make it none at all.

[kitty]

though, you are right that it is also not right for an overwhelming majority to get their own rights trampled upon by an overwheming minority.


In this case, what rights are being trampled on? Your freedom to practice your religion is as accomodated as possible without denying the rights of others. As long as you are not penalized for your need to take a day off, either we agree to take ALL religious holidays off or none.

Yuhei, by your thinking, why should this site even exist? AAs are just 4% of the population. By your logic, we should have no claim of basic rights.

[Yeahman]

Since when were holidays considered basic human rights? I'm taking a purely pragmatic approach. If a sufficiently large number of students would either have to skip class or violate the precepts of their religion, I think it makes sense to just cancel class and make it up some other time. Class shouldn't be canceled for 1 student but if half the class is affected then just think about it practically. And taking a day or half a day off doesn't violate anyone's rights.

[MovingForward]

[QUOTE=BeTheReds]It also teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that anyone who believes in him will live forever, which most people who aren't Christians don't want their children to be taught in school.

QUOTE]

Yes - I was 23 and not a child when I first encountered having someone I trusted/valued (who happened to be a Born Again Christian) give me that very special, dual role of being a valued confidant while simultaneously being a person on the way to hell.

Wrestling with that unbelievable dichotomy as this person's friend, and per my emotional attachment to this friend, I found I could never get over the anger that mounted over their facile nature of imposing a schizophrenia on me that was of their own invention, or at least the invention of the church he/she subscribed to. I'm their best friend and I'm going to hell and nothing needs to be resolved either way, every day, let's go have lunch??

I'm hearing the bells of mental numbness often heard amongst the children and young adults of Brandenburg or Berlin circa 1936 as they smiled at their family and friends when coming home from their own special SS-run classes with the same sort of gleeful "I'm going to Heaven, yer going to hell - how about dinner tonight to talk about sports and such?".

I would not endorse having my chosen school impose this artificial schizophrenia on my children or those they associated with with like beliefs/disbeliefs with the premise that "don't worry, yer kids don't have to listen - they can just go home and work things out with you".

Were I to respond to the school official I might inquire, "Is that right? Well, why don't I arrange to have yer kids over for a daily seminar on the values of using pot - you know, that verbal brain stimulate which helps those of previously bereft of mental numbness achieve mental numbness when faced with ponderous shizophrenia inherent in classes that train one how to forecast spiritual destiny for your closest, most beloved humans."

[applehead]

Yuhei, by your thinking, why should this site even exist? AAs are just 4% of the population. By your logic, we should have no claim of basic rights.

how is a public internet forum anywhere comparable
to a "national" religious holiday?
this forum wasn't mandated by the government
where everyone is forced to register and participate
in.

[pikachupacabra]

In this case, what rights are being trampled on? Your freedom to practice your religion is as accomodated as possible without denying the rights of others. As long as you are not penalized for your need to take a day off, either we agree to take ALL religious holidays off or none.

Yuhei, by your thinking, why should this site even exist? AAs are just 4% of the population. By your logic, we should have no claim of basic rights.

you're right that in this particular case I don't see any majority rights being "trampled" upon by a minority. I was thinking more about something along the lines of the special interest group "Parents fo TV decency" or something along similar where a small minority, by constantly bombarding the FCC with complaints, effectively changed FCC regulation of the TV networks.

[deez nuts]

gimme chinese new years off, you fuckers.

[applehead]

i mean. i don't think it's a hard concept to understand.
jewish schoolchildren and non jewish schoolchildren
have major jewish hoildays off.
why can't catholic schoolchildren also have catholic
holidays off. it's not going to happen but is it
so ridiculous to even entertain the idea?
there are other christian holidays beside christmas
and easter that we consider important.

[YuheiCarreau]

i mean. i don't think it's a hard concept to understand.
jewish schoolchildren and non jewish schoolchildren
have major jewish hoildays off.
why can't catholic schoolchildren also have catholic
holidays off. it's not going to happen but is it
so ridiculous to even entertain the idea?
there are other christian holidays beside christmas
and easter that we consider important.

This is basically the point I was trying to make. Kitty, I think in this discussion you've been strongly defending the right of Jews to have their holidays accounted for, even though it seems like most of the people involved haven't been arguing against it. Christians are everywhere in America, which is why major Christian holidays are so widely recognized - but for many Christians, there are holidays besides Christmas and Easter that they wish to observe. My experience with Jewish holidays is that they are recognized, but only in schools or businesses that include a large number of Jews - but if these communities are willing to recognize the needs of their Jewish members, why is there so much reticence to aknowledge ANY kind of Christian event? Applehead mentioned having to take an unpaid sick day in order to observe Ash Wednesday. If a Jew were asked to do the same, civil libertarians would be up in arms - and me too!

[loserbutt]

http://slate.com/id/2113611/

so in Virginia, some schools, mostly elementary and preschool and kindergarden, have a program in which kids are voluntarily allowed to leave and attend a bible class. Of course, the non-religious and the non-christian view this as persecution because the kids who stay behind might be stigmatized. On the other hand, the Christians say that if you don't allow it, you're persecuting them

[pikachupacabra]

helllo hello

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=21964

[Hiroshi2]

There can be if people start putting words into his mouth -- claiming he said this and that about everything under the evangelical view of morality.

That's where this bible teaching can start to get dangerous. When Jesus becomes a tool to condemn. :frown:




I understand that Jesus was a man who was very tolerant, and never was judgmental towards others. And I understand that the Bible teaches all of us to live "Christ-like", i.e. in this manner...................................which I think is great. Seriously...............it is a great lesson. However, there has to be a line drawn somewhere b/w tolerating people who are different from you, who live immoral lives......................and doing what's right. Trying to steer people the right way. Which is where many Christians find themselves.

[loserbutt]

we don't get Jewish holidays off. Jewish people can skip them, claiming religious reasons (and I knew a few non-observant Jews who claimed the holidays)

[Faithless]

...
However, there has to be a line drawn somewhere
b/w tolerating people who are different from you,
Who live immoral lives
And doing what's right.
Trying to steer people the right way.
Which is where many Christians find themselves.
OK.

So, do you think that people are putting on these bible studies in these elementary schools in order to "steer people the right way?" :smile:

[Faithless]

Senate Panel Kills Religious Freedom Amendment (http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=2977766&nav=23iiWdHe)
By BOB LEWIS
Associated Press Writer

(AP) - A proposed state constitutional amendment that would expand the right to preach or pray in public property, including classrooms, died Monday before a Senate committee in Richmond.

The measure failed on a 5-10 vote with opponents saying the problem of errant public school officials cracking down on religious expression shows a need for "a civics lesson," not rewriting Virginia's 220-year-old Bill of Rights.

Del. Charles W. Carrico Sr., the sponsor of the bill, said he brought the resolution to reverse what he called a "zero-tolerance policy" against Christians exercising their beliefs in schools.

"To profess your faith, it's a part of your belief. Recently, it's been to a point where the secular world has said you can only profess your faith within the four walls of your church ... or you can only pray within a closet," said Carrico, R-Grayson County.

"Our country was built on the Christian principles of the Bible," he said. "Today, our Constitution, in my opinion, has to be strengthened to protect those rights of all Christians around this country."

Opponents argued (and supporters of the measure conceded) that the amendment would only cement into the Constitution existing court decisions upholding the right of students to independently pray in school -- legal precedents unknown to many school administrators.

"Now, we can debate whether or not it is needed, but my view ... is that it does nothing more than constitutionalizes that which is already out there," said Sen. William C. Mims, an attorney. "There is, I think, a tendency on the part of some school administrators to be unaware of these precedents."

Michael P. Farris, a conservative constitutional lawyer who founded a national home-schooling advocacy organization, testified in support of Carrico's measure that it does nothing different than the current federal or state constitutions.

He defended the amendment, however, as one that would protect the religious free speech, not the prerogative of schools to orchestrate prayer.

"The essence of this amendment is that religious speech is not second-class speech, and it's not written for Christianity, it's written for all religions," said Farris, an unsuccessful Republican candidate for lieutenant governor in 1993.

"I think we need a constitutional provision that's for the people -- all the people -- including local government officials who frankly need a civics lesson," he said.

As an example, Farris recalled defending a child who had been praying silently over his lunch when the principal forced him to stop.

"This has got to stop. This amendment would focus Virginia's attention by the ballot process and passing this through," Farris said. "I've had friends make a lot of money in attorney's fees against Virginia schools doing stupid things in this area."

In nearly two hours of intense debate before the Senate Courts of Justice Committee, both sides sought to establish themselves as the rightful heirs to Thomas Jefferson, George Mason and James Madison, authors of state and national freedom-of-religion guarantees.

Sen. John S. Edwards, D-Roanoke, asked Carrico whether the General Assembly could improve on the work of the founders.

"Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (were) dealing with a new nation. The nation was just a baby at that time," Carrico said.

Edwards continued: "Do you think we're wiser than they?"

"I don't think I'm any wiser, but I am wiser than Thomas Jefferson was in my day. He doesn't understand the things that are coming down. He hasn't lived in my day," Carrico replied.

Sen. Kenneth Cuccinelli said contemporary court rulings that the founders could not have envisioned justify Carrico's amendment. He said U.S. Supreme Court decisions in the early '60s striking down organized prayer by school officials "have swung the pendulum too far the other way."

"The fact of the matter is the founders, who would have never thought of atheism as a religion, are now confronted with a Supreme Court that does," said Cuccinelli, R-Fairfax County.

Sen. Richard L. Saslaw said the measure would "open a floodgate of lawsuits" against the state if it were to become part of the Constitution. And Sen. Thomas K. Norment Jr., R-James City, asked how far the General Assembly would go to in writing the morals of the day into the Constitution if the resolution passed.

"We've got to exercise some intellectual discipline when it comes to this issue," Norment said.

(Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)