Marrying in and out

[kimpossible]

So, is the Asian marrying out, or are we marrying 'back in'? Any special issues in a relationship like this? Ups? Downs?

[thaite]

I'm not sure what you mean, HH. Do you mean to discuss hapas marrying Asians, or hapas marrying non-Asians?

I don't particularly care either way -- I'm so beastly-looking that it's an achievement if a woman bothers to even talk to me. :o

Seriously, I think that it's a great leap if a white person marries hapa or Asian, because it's the dominant culture accepting the influence of the minor culture. It takes a great deal of learning and understanding.

For the Asian to accept the hapa, I think is an easier leap, because the Asian already lives as a minority in a white-dominated society and naturally has been accustomed.

I don't know if thats what you intended to discuss, but, we'll see.

[kimpossible]

Hapa and Asian relationship as in with each other.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 12 2002, 07:00 PM
So, is the Asian marrying out, or are we marrying 'back in'? Any special issues in a relationship like this? Ups? Downs?
Does it really have to be one or the other? What happened to people marrying each other and focusing on their relationship as opposed to focusing on their ethnicity?

I guess I'm just one of those naive little minds that thinks that two people can be together without focusing on their differences, if they care about each other enough.

[kimpossible]

Well, to illustrate I can share one difference. I used to be able to do what buoywonder talked about before where he finds a balance between cultures and can gravitate towards one or the other at his will. Marrying into an Asian family changed that. Permanently. I feel a lot more pressure to 'be Asian' and it had an affect on my identity. Compared to a white guy - I'm Asian. Compared to an Asian guy - I'm white. So I deal a lot more with the foreigner label than I did before.

Anyone can love. And I guess in modern day America it's completely possible to give your parents the finger if they don't approve or want you and your mate to live differently than you feel.

I'm also a different ethnicity than my husband. So, he's still marrying out. The difference may lie in how people view marriage. I don't see it as a sign of love, but as the creation and addition of family. Love exists outside of marriage and marriage can exist devoid of love.

You're absolutely right that caring is a key issue, but ignoring differences doesn't make them go away. Being aware of them often gives you the chance to comprimise and find solutions.

[angel nympho]

I guess then the difference lies in the fact that I view marriage differently than you do. I absolutely refuse to marry a man I don't love. And I will not marry if love and devotion are not the two key factors in the marriage. I see the addition and creation of family as reasons for marriage, but they are definately not the most important ones for me. I mean, I will marry somebody if I love him and want to start a family and a life together... but this thought has nothing to do with his family or mine. If either of our families don't like the idea, but I continue to remain devoted to him and he does the same, then I will gladly give my parents the finger. Though I know I don't need to. I know that if I'm happy, they'll be willing to accept the man I want to be with.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 13 2002, 06:37 PM
I guess then the difference lies in the fact that I view marriage differently than you do. I absolutely refuse to marry a man I don't love. And I will not marry if love and devotion are not the two key factors in the marriage. I see the addition and creation of family as reasons for marriage, but they are definately not the most important ones for me. I mean, I will marry somebody if I love him and want to start a family and a life together... but this thought has nothing to do with his family or mine. If either of our families don't like the idea, but I continue to remain devoted to him and he does the same, then I will gladly give my parents the finger. Though I know I don't need to. I know that if I'm happy, they'll be willing to accept the man I want to be with.
yes, but i think there must be so many lifestyle compromises that you must make, even if you don't marry interracially. if you happen to marry someone who is immersed in a different cultural lifestyle than yourself, then there would be even more compromises. personally, if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise. love and marriage are two different things. i could fall in love alot easier than i can make a life with someone else.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 14 2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 13 2002, 06:37 PM
I guess then the difference lies in the fact that I view marriage differently than you do.  I absolutely refuse to marry a man I don't love.  And I will not marry if love and devotion are not the two key factors in the marriage.  I see the addition and creation of family as reasons for marriage, but they are definately not the most important ones for me.  I mean, I will marry somebody if I love him and want to start a family and a life together... but this thought has nothing to do with his family or mine.  If either of our families don't like the idea, but I continue to remain devoted to him and he does the same, then I will gladly give my parents the finger.  Though I know I don't need to.  I know that if I'm happy, they'll be willing to accept the man I want to be with.
yes, but i think there must be so many lifestyle compromises that you must make, even if you don't marry interracially. if you happen to marry someone who is immersed in a different cultural lifestyle than yourself, then there would be even more compromises. personally, if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise. love and marriage are two different things. i could fall in love alot easier than i can make a life with someone else.
Well my idea is to stay engaged and date for a long time before I get married. Any compromises I will have, I will pretty much already know and have already decided whether or not to make them. If I love the guy and he loves me, we'll both be willing to come to agreement.

[digiaks]

Does it really have to be one or the other? What happened to people marrying each other and focusing on their relationship as opposed to focusing on their ethnicity?

I guess I'm just one of those naive little minds that thinks that two people can be together without focusing on their differences, if they care about each other enough.

I have to agree with this person.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 14 2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 14 2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Oct 13 2002, 06:37 PM
I guess then the difference lies in the fact that I view marriage differently than you do. I absolutely refuse to marry a man I don't love. And I will not marry if love and devotion are not the two key factors in the marriage. I see the addition and creation of family as reasons for marriage, but they are definately not the most important ones for me. I mean, I will marry somebody if I love him and want to start a family and a life together... but this thought has nothing to do with his family or mine. If either of our families don't like the idea, but I continue to remain devoted to him and he does the same, then I will gladly give my parents the finger. Though I know I don't need to. I know that if I'm happy, they'll be willing to accept the man I want to be with.
yes, but i think there must be so many lifestyle compromises that you must make, even if you don't marry interracially. if you happen to marry someone who is immersed in a different cultural lifestyle than yourself, then there would be even more compromises. personally, if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise. love and marriage are two different things. i could fall in love alot easier than i can make a life with someone else.
Well my idea is to stay engaged and date for a long time before I get married. Any compromises I will have, I will pretty much already know and have already decided whether or not to make them. If I love the guy and he loves me, we'll both be willing to come to agreement.
of course. everybody should do this.

but for some people, certain compromises are not acceptable. when we are talking about marriage, we are not just talking about two people in love, we are talking about a family and children. i want my children to grow up speaking chinese. if i live in the states and it's not spoken at home, they're not going to grow up knowing the language.

[digiaks]

if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise

This is absolutely wrong. Many Hapas can speak the language of their Asian side. My mother has not forgotten Korean at all. She has not forgotten the culture at all. I have not forgotten my Korean culture at all. You are being small minded.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by digiaks@Oct 15 2002, 10:24 AM
if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise

This is absolutely wrong. Many Hapas can speak the language of their Asian side. My mother has not forgotten Korean at all. She has not forgotten the culture at all. I have not forgotten my Korean culture at all. You are being small minded.
Before this starts treading into flame territory, I want to point out that Sun Wu-kung said that marrying someone who doesn't speak Cantonese will most likely result in him losing his ability to speak Cantonese.

If your point is that a lot of hapa speak the language of their Asian parent, that's not in contrast to what he's saying.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by digiaks@Oct 15 2002, 06:24 PM
if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise

This is absolutely wrong. Many Hapas can speak the language of their Asian side. My mother has not forgotten Korean at all. She has not forgotten the culture at all. I have not forgotten my Korean culture at all. You are being small minded.
ya chill out. swk's specific point is that, for those who spoke chinese in childhood but then came over to the US for much of our education, if we're not in a Chinese-speaking environment our abilities slip away pretty fast. for example right now, being in HK, I can discuss many higher mathematical topics in Cantonese. once I go back to the states, unless I marry a native chinese speaker who works in a highly quantitative profession, I am likely to lose this ability. why? easy, when the hell am I ever gonna have a conversation about the solution method of higher order differential equations? Of course I will not forget all my Chinese and turn into a non-speaker regardless of whom I marry, but I will forget words and ideas. language ability is very modular - use it or lose it, part by part.

and from a global perspective, the general level of Asian language ability among US-born Asians, whether parents of two different races or the same race, is appallingly low.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by digiaks@Oct 15 2002, 01:24 PM
if i marry someone who does not speak chinese, that would pretty much mean to me that i will lose my chinese speaking ability over time. i am not willing to make that compromise

This is absolutely wrong. Many Hapas can speak the language of their Asian side. My mother has not forgotten Korean at all. She has not forgotten the culture at all. I have not forgotten my Korean culture at all. You are being small minded.
hey well, maybe i'm just speaking for myself. i have gone through periods of years where i hardly ever spoke chinese, and my chinese ability went to hell. if i am to commit the rest of my life to a wife who does not speak chinese, and i don't live in asia, then i can expect that i will never again regain my chinese fluency. i guess i can't really imagine how hapa kids learn their asian languages, and while i know it's entirely possible, i can't really imagine how good their asian language ability would be if english was spoken most of the time in the home and also in their environment. we don't have to even mention hapas as examples, i mean alot of ABCs (American Born Chinese) i know who grew up in a chinese speaking household speak very thickly accented chinese.

and what about cultural lifestyles? yeah sure my wife could always learn after we're married or maybe while we were dating. but it would be a whole lot easier if my wife was already immersed in chinese culture. and mind you, i am not talking about limiting my marriage potentials to women who are genetically chinese. i know british people who are fluent in chinese and grew up around chinese culture. i would rather marry someone like that than an ABC who doesn't speak chinese.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Oct 15 2002, 05:55 PM-->

[deez nuts]

Prolly gonna get grilled for saying this, but here goes anyways.

I've been given this alot of thought of late. Originally, if I have children I want them to be able to at least speak mandarin fluently, it seems like such a shame to lose that ability. I also wanted them to retain aspects of the Chinese culture.

Nowadays, I kinda adjusted my primary goal in a marriage (if I married outside the Chinese race and from the looks of it most likely now). I think I would focus more on being a good husband to my wife (don't laugh for those that know me), providing a good living for my family, securing any of our future plans financially etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to maintain the Chinese culture and language when I get married. And if it's lost, I would definitely feel sad and disappointed. But, it's not tops on my list anymore, or as high as it used to be. I'm more concerned now about maintaining the marriage, my relationship with my wife and trying to make it work.

I know you can have both (a good stable marriage and pass the culture to my kids). But it just seems the priorities have shifted.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Oct 15 2002, 06:14 PM-->

[igcognito]

C_Boy, though you may not marry a Chinese woman. Your children can still be cultured. This may sound extremely odd, but I know a young black girl who has Korean godparents. She works for them and speaks fluent Korean. Yes it is not "normal", but that does not make her less "black" or more "Korean". She is just very cultured. You marrying a white woman and having mixed kids, for example. They can still have the Chinese culture presented and taught to them. It will take more effort, but living in a world of ignorance. It is takes effort to get around things. Don't deprive your kids of something precious to you, because they may be mixed.



<!--EDIT|igcognito|Oct 18 2002, 03:37 AM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by igcognito@Oct 17 2002, 10:34 PM
C_Boy, though you may not marry a Chinese woman. Your children can still be cultured. This may sound extremely odd, but I know a young black girl who has Korean godparents. She works for them and speaks fluent Korean. Yes it is not "normal", but that does not make her less "black" or more "Korean". She is just very cultured. You marrying a white woman and having mixed kids, for example. They can still have the Chinese culture presented and taught to them. It will take more effort, but living in a world of ignorance. It is takes effort to get around things. Don't deprive your kids of something precious to you, because they may be mixed.
actually i think bunboy's girl is korean.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 18 2002, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by igcognito@Oct 17 2002, 10:34 PM
C_Boy, though you may not marry a Chinese woman. Your children can still be cultured. This may sound extremely odd, but I know a young black girl who has Korean godparents. She works for them and speaks fluent Korean. Yes it is not "normal", but that does not make her less "black" or more "Korean". She is just very cultured. You marrying a white woman and having mixed kids, for example. They can still have the Chinese culture presented and taught to them. It will take more effort, but living in a world of ignorance. It is takes effort to get around things. Don't deprive your kids of something precious to you, because they may be mixed.
actually i think bunboy's girl is korean.
Yeah she's korean.

Thanks for the input igcognito. I've had this discussion numerous times with the woman. Fact is for our lifestyle (I'm a MD. She works for Vogue magazine and is always travelling) it's gonna be hard to pass on both the Korean and Chinese cultures on to our kids.

As of now, neither one of us wants kids. But she did express interest in having them, even though I don't want them, period.

I guess when the time comes and everything in the marriage is just dandy and she convinces me to have kids, then we''ll probably focus on passing both cultural traits to our children.

Of course this is all pending on me marrying her, and that's kinda up in the air still, but definitely leaning towards it.

But I agree with you 100%.

Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Oct 18 2002, 12:59 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 18 2002, 12:54 PM
Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. &nbsp;Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.
or if you have a daughter, she'll get hit on by both chinese and korean guys. :dance:

not to mention the hordes of asiaphiles out there...



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Oct 18 2002, 01:58 PM-->

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 18 2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 18 2002, 12:54 PM
Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.
or if you have a daughter, she'll get hit on by both chinese and korean guys. :dance:

not to mention the hordes of asiaphiles out there...
The bulk of the responsibility in handling her dating life would fall on my wife. I prolly be too heartbroken to see her grow up so fast or risk her hating me for grilling her dates all the time.

I suppose this is better than Plan A which is to lock her in her room till she's 21. :ph34r:

There's also the possibility of selecting the sex of fetus <_<



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Oct 18 2002, 02:08 PM-->

[igcognito]

You are suppose to grill her dates. I think it is odd, when dads don't grill me. No matter what race they are. I expect to be grilled, but then they usually end up liking me. Well, (if they are not black) then they remember I am black. Then the grilling continues. -_-.

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 18 2002, 05:54 PM


Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.
Sure there's a term for it.

Chinese.

There ya go. Koreans should just accept their Chineseness instead of run away from it.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by igcognito@Oct 19 2002, 04:24 AM
You are suppose to grill her dates. I think it is odd, when dads don't grill me. No matter what race they are. I expect to be grilled, but then they usually end up liking me. Well, (if they are not black) then they remember I am black. Then the grilling continues. -_-.
My parents have never grilled a guy before. But once when they found out I'd spent a night at a guy's house, they got his phone number off my phone bill, called him, and told him that if he ever put his hands on me, they'd call the cops. Needless to say, I proceeded to run away and spent a few more days at his house. Haha, too bad they were stupid and I wasn't dating him. Or sleeping with him. We were just drinking buddies. :dance:

[igcognito]

Well where I am from, OH. It is a lot different. Every suburb who watches the news, sees what the next ignorant black person has done. So with then, it is expected of me to be ignorant. -_-. So I am used to being grilled. The only person who has never grilled me, was my x-girlfriend mom, a Chinese woman. She actually liked me. And I don't know why, o_O. But every white girl, (I have only dated one black girl, they don't like me. I speak to "white"), I have dated, grilled me. So yeah, I tend to anticipate it, sadly enough. :(

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 19 2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 18 2002, 05:54 PM


Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. &nbsp;Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.
Sure there's a term for it.

Chinese.

There ya go. Koreans should just accept their Chineseness instead of run away from it.
That is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. People wonder why there is no cohesion in the AA community. It's statements like that that are the problem.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Bethereds@Oct 22 2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 19 2002, 06:58 AM

There ya go. Koreans should just accept their Chineseness instead of run away from it.
That is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. People wonder why there is no cohesion in the AA community. It's statements like that that are the problem.
actually, posts like that are jokes. the lack of unity in the AA community is a different issue. basically cuz, hey, we're not like blacks with a common history or Hispanics with a common language, so we shouldn't keep thinking, "Hey, blacks and Hispanics are unified, we gotta be just as unified as them."



<!--EDIT|AliBabaIncorporated|Oct 22 2002, 03:34 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Bethereds@Oct 22 2002, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 19 2002, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Oct 18 2002, 05:54 PM


Edit: I wonder if a korean/chinese child would be considered Hapa? Or is their another term for it. Damn if I have a son, he can possibly be able to speak korean and chinese, hence get all de chinese and korean girlies! Wooooo.
Sure there's a term for it.

Chinese.

There ya go. Koreans should just accept their Chineseness instead of run away from it.
That is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever seen. People wonder why there is no cohesion in the AA community. It's statements like that that are the problem.
eh. chinalama was just being funny actually. i guess you have to be around here long enough to catch it. :P he's just a smart-ass sometimes. please excuse him. :)

[BeTheReds]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were being serious. I got into a serious heated argument with someone once about that very subject. He was also one of the people who advocated Asian unity and activism at my college.

I used to be someone who thought like that. But it doesnt make sense anymore. Especially the people at my college saying they were being held down by the man when they obviously were not.

Anyhow, sorry for getting mad!

[himura-dono]

my kids better learn mandarin befor eenglish or i'll spank their little hapa asses.

it's easier to go from mandarin to english, rather than english to mandarin. it's a struggle for me and i don't want my kids to go through that.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by himura-dono@Oct 23 2002, 03:36 AM
it's easier to go from mandarin to english, rather than english to mandarin. &nbsp;it's a struggle for me and i don't want my kids to go through that.
hmm ... i don't think either way is much harder, just as long as the switchover starts at a young age. i spoke mostly english for my first 5 or so years, then I moved in with my uncle and spoke Hakka all the time. didn't give me any problems with either language. but I spent the closing years of my brain's linguistic flexibility (high school) learning Cantonese. now I'm trying to stuff Mandarin in and it's not going all that great. so I will probably teach my future kids Mandarin rather than dialect so they don't go through the same problem ...

on the other hand, here in HK I'm meeting ABCs who spoke Cantonese first then learned English at the school-entering age - some of them have an accent when they speak English, but not when they speak Cantonese ...



<!--EDIT|AliBabaIncorporated|Oct 23 2002, 07:56 AM-->

[himura-dono]

my fianceé (from here on out will be called by her name, cuz i'm sick of saying "my fianceé"), Cindy, and i plan to raise our kids in taiwan till about 4th grade. then move em over here.