Racism in Japan/Asia vs. in the US

[abct]

BINGO!

People in Japan hardly notice when full blooded Koreans who speak Japanese, yet they'll jump up and down and set of firecrackers for me when I say even the most simple of things.

ANd no, that's not acceptance.

I was wondering, were you intending on staying in Japan for the rest of your life?

And I hate to say this, (because this affects you) but I'm glad Japan remains seemingly adament in repelling non-Asians from their society, at least after hearing about all the selling out and white worshipping they do. But of course, this is going to hurt our hapa brethen that reside there...

Oh, and also whats the link to that article you wrote for Eurasiannation.com? "I am not your brother" as I recall it was called?

[YuheiCarreau]

And I hate to say this, (because this affects you) but I'm glad Japan remains seemingly adament in repelling non-Asians from their society, at least after hearing about all the selling out and white worshipping they do. But of course, this is going to hurt our hapa brethen that reside there...


I always think it's bizarre when Asian Americans cheer on the behavior of Asians in the "homeland", when it's really no different from the behavior of Whites in the US. When is it ever a good thing when a country is adamant about repelling foreigners?

[SunWuKong]

And I hate to say this, (because this affects you) but I'm glad Japan remains seemingly adament in repelling non-Asians from their society, at least after hearing about all the selling out and white worshipping they do. But of course, this is going to hurt our hapa brethen that reside there...

i have very little personal experience with this, but isn't Japanese society more discriminating towards other Asians there than they are towards white people?

[abct]

I always think it's bizarre when Asian Americans cheer on the behavior of Asians in the "homeland", when it's really no different from the behavior of Whites in the US. When is it ever a good thing when a country is adamant about repelling foreigners?

It becomes a good thing when your homeland has a problem in indulging in self-hatred and selling out and believing that anything that is western is automatically superior.

Besides, Japan is NOT America. While America proclaims to be the land of the free and land of opportunity, Japan never makes such claims. Thus, it's worse when America fails to remain a non-racist society because then it becomes hypocritical.

I don't know if Japan is more discriminating towards other Asians, but judging from what BetheReds said about the Japanese not having any problem with a Korean speaking Japanese, I would say no.

[SunWuKong]

I don't know if Japan is more discriminating towards other Asians, but judging from what BetheReds said about the Japanese not having any problem with a Korean speaking Japanese, I would say no.

that's probably because they don't know the speakers are actually Korean just by looking at them.

i've heard that Chinese people living in Japan are often stereotyped as criminals.

[YuheiCarreau]

It becomes a good thing when your homeland has a problem in indulging in self-hatred and selling out and believing that anything that is western is automatically superior.

Besides, Japan is NOT America. While America proclaims to be the land of the free and land of opportunity, Japan never makes such claims. Thus, it's worse when America fails to remain a non-racist society because then it becomes hypocritical.

I don't know if Japan is more discriminating towards other Asians, but judging from what BetheReds said about the Japanese not having any problem with a Korean speaking Japanese, I would say no.

Yeah, whatever. That's just a bunch of pissy bullshit. Racism is a human trait, not a White trait, and the Japanese are just as capable of it as anyone else.

Also, many Japanese think any non-Japanese Asians are filthy criminals. And the racism directed against them by the Japanese hurts just as much as the racism Whites direct at Asians in the US.

[BeTheReds]

Oh, and also whats the link to that article you wrote for Eurasiannation.com? "I am not your brother" as I recall it was called?

What does that have to do with anything?

I'll PM you the link


Besides, Japan is NOT America. While America proclaims to be the land of the free and land of opportunity, Japan never makes such claims. Actually it does. In its own constitution it mentions equality of the races on several accounts, most distinctly Article 14..

Article 14: All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin.




I don't know if Japan is more discriminating towards other Asians, but judging from what BetheReds said about the Japanese not having any problem with a Korean speaking Japanese, I would say no.

What I meant is that they are not so surprised by it, at least not as much as when a White person learns it. Cuz then, HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SPEAK JAPANESE LOOKING LIKE THAT?!?!?!?

However, other Asians are treated 100 times worse in Japan than they are in the USA. The friggin mayor of Tokyo, when asked what he'll do to curb pollution, used the opportunity to say that he wanted to boot out all the Chinese immigrants who are a type of genetic pollution.

You point about how Japan whiteworships, so racism is okay is not a very strong one, but I'll entertain that thought.

The "whiteworshiping" segment of the population is mostly young people. They are also the most accepting segment of the population towards other Asians, (Especially Koreans).

On the other hand, the people who are most racist towards whites tend to be men past their '40s or '50s, and they are 100 times more racist towards other Asians, and even would say that those other asians are below them.

I have to agree with Yuhei on this one and call you out on YOUR hypocracy.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Actually it does. In its own constitution it mentions equality of the races on several accounts, most distinctly Article 14.

I guess the Japanese didn't really know what they were getting into when McArthur and his homies drafted up a constitution for them modeled after the U.S. version~ Kidding.

[abct]

I'm not looking for a fight. I'll tell you guys right here that I'm from Model Minority (and as of recently the Fighting 44's) so our views are going to differ slightly (huge exaggeration) from mine but I sincerely believe I can back up what I say.

While we might argue over details, we can agree on several core values: racism is wrong, treat others fairly, etc. I will agree sometimes I forget to "turn the right cheek" and I think of nothing more than revenge. Can you blame me?

Yeah, whatever. That's just a bunch of pissy bullshit. Racism is a human trait, not a White trait, and the Japanese are just as capable of it as anyone else.

Not exactly. As far as I understand the Japanese are educated differently about racism than Americans, whereas in America we have been taught since we were little children that racism is wrong and that it's unacceptable (and we also have classes on diversity, ethnic history, required to take multicultural classes in school, etc.), while something like this might not be as emphasized in Japan. Therefore, the Japanese who do discriminate may not fully understand that what they are doing is wrong and they are merely doing what they have known and been taught their whole lives, whereas an American who has a better understanding of right and wrong really has a bigger responsibility to uphold himself.

Actually it does. In its own constitution it mentions equality of the races on several accounts, most distinctly Article 14..

How well know is this article in Japan? If it's like an obsure law in America, it might just go unnoticed. Shoot, even the first Amendment which declares freedom of speech isn't a guaranteed thing in America and you can be arrested at the airport for even joking around.

What I meant is that they are not so surprised by it, at least not as much as when a White person learns it. Cuz then, HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SPEAK JAPANESE LOOKING LIKE THAT?!?!?!?

Considering that Japan is a homogenous society with a population of foreigners that constitute less than 1% it is easy to see why they are surprised. It is simply difficult for them to comprehend something which they have never seen before (in this case a white person speaking their language) and it would generate a reaction similar to a chicken farmer who has been a farmer his whole life seeing a blue chicken being born.

On the other hand, the people who are most racist towards whites tend to be men past their '40s or '50s, and they are 100 times more racist towards other Asians, and even would say that those other asians are below them.

In other words, the war generation and the people who fought in wars or have lived through wars- same as in America, in which the older population is more racist towards minorities and it wouldn't be surprising to see some old white dude talk about shooting "them Japs." Yeah, well theres really nothing we can do to change their minds and I think this mentality has been forever engraved into their heads.

The "whiteworshiping" segment of the population is mostly young people. They are also the most accepting segment of the population towards other Asians, (Especially Koreans).

In other words, the media generation, the people who grew up with technology at their fingers and were more readily influenced by the media. Ultimately I feel this has been both bad and good: a major reason why the younger Japanese people are more accepting of the Korean people is because of Korean dramas and soap operas, but at the same time this media has praised David Beckham as the ideal man (and he isn't Japanese) which is going to have a disastrous effect.

I have to agree with Yuhei on this one and call you out on YOUR hypocracy.

Yes I am, but in the same way in that although I hate idiotic losers, if that idiotic loser was my brother, I would love him.

And thanks for the link. The reason why I asked for it is because I remember seeing it several months ago and I was intrigued, and now I want to go back and re-read it for my own personal research in regards to hapa identity and hapa issues. I 'm just trying to learn as much as I can, and I respect what you have to say in regards to the issue.

If you feel that anything I have said is erroneous, please do not hesistate to tell and correct me.

[BeTheReds]

About article 14, it's the constitution, so no, most people don't know about it. Most young Japanese don't care about politics or their own history. Let alone their own government. (Which is why the old people run the whole show.)






Japanese people are more accepting of the Korean people is because of Korean dramas and soap operas, but at the same time this media has praised David Beckham as the ideal man (and he isn't Japanese) which is going to have a disastrous effect.


If you ask me, the more disastrous effect is that they reduce all of what Korean men are to one man... Bae Young Jun. Korea to Japanese people is the cheap place next door to go shopping and find guys who are exactly like BYJ. They have a good soccer team too. But dont eat the local food!

They have no appreciation for Korean history and culture, and can't even give a simple opinion on Japan's acts from between 1905-1945 in Korea.

Idolation for sports stars isn't a horrible thing.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Never really understood why AAs accuse Japan, of all places, of "selling out" and "white-worshipping." It's one of the few Asian countries where the average guy on the street is generally unimpressed to hear his fellow countryman speaking fluent English. It seems to be part of the usual American trend to assume that everyone around the world worships Americans and wants to be just like them. Worse, this gets exacerbated by reading the six stages of how American reporters report on Japan:
1) Look at that Santa being crucified in the department store! Japanese are so desperate to copy Western culture they just grab everything without even understanding it! File an article (and be sure to mention that line-dancing craze too!)
2) Look at all those English cram schools! Everyone's studying English, and they hire unqualified whites to do it. They must worship America, since the only reason you would possibly wanna study English is to talk to Americans! File an article!
4) The reporter goes to clubs full of foreigners and gets laid all the time! All Japanese girls must worship America! Even the ones who'd never go near those clubs in a million years! File an article, but write about "the expanding number of foreign marriages" since that sounds more respectable than going to a bar!
5) Hey, I wanna go to a titty bar, how about that one ... no wait, there's a sign on the door ... gaijin O-something-ri ... dammit I just learned this kanji ... "Gaijin O-Kotowari!" (Foreigners Will Be Turned Away) ... hey, all Japanese are really white-hating racists even though they copied all our culture! File an article (but don't mention it was a titty bar, otherwise my editor won't let me expense the trip as journalistic research!)
6) Now that I know the Japanese are really racist, that must explain those hundreds of thousands of unnaturalized Koreans I heard about but never actually met --- they're all being denied their human rights by evil Japanese imperialists! Time to dig up some Ishihara Shintaro quotes and file an article!

of course, American reporters (especially the ones who don't speak Japanese) don't notice a washed-up Korean actor becoming popular, or the tens of millions of girls who are uninterested in white guys, or how many Japanese people are abroad in Southeast Asia. They pull the details of Japanese life they recognize (or think they recognize) as American out from the mishmash, and assume that's they're the only non-traditional influence on people who would otherwise be running around with samurai swords and sitting in Zen temples all day.

This kind of American attitude towards Japan undoubtedly has an effect on how AAs in Japan view hapas (whether the domestic or the imported variety), and I daresay it's not a very positive one ...

Yes I am, but in the same way in that although I hate idiotic losers, if that idiotic loser was my brother, I would love him.
Japanese people don't consider ABCs their brothers ... only Asian-Americans have this whole misguided idea of "Asian unity" against Evil Whitey stuck in their heads ...

[BeTheReds]

Japanese people don't consider ABCs their brothers ... only Asian-Americans have this whole misguided idea of "Asian unity" against Evil Whitey stuck in their heads ...


I'm not so sure that's what he meant, but what you say is true...

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I agree with your point about western reporters. But on the other point, who are you to speak for japanese people? are you japanese? or do you even live here?
You accept my one point which flatters your political perceptions, and you refuse my my other point which doesn't. Fine, but try offering contradicting points with evidence instead of giving me this racist bullshit to shut my mouth because I'm not Japanese and so don't know anything about Japan and shouldn't "speak for Japanese people."

AA misconceptions of Japan --- filtered through the twin lenses of their American view on race relations (in which lots of different Americanized kids whose only commonality is their external appearance) and their American view on Japan's white worship --- result in the tiresome assumption by AAs in Japan that hapas in Japan are either white people with Asian fetishes (whom they greet with typical Asian-American racial exclusionism) or the poor suffering children of white people with Asian fetishes (who in their minds deserve sympathy and pity from the Asian-American community as long as they pander to all their revolutionary social ideas). And plenty of them mistakenly assume that Japanese society, and Asian societies at large, approve of (or even care about) this attitude, which strengthens their resolve in applying it to people they meet. I've seen the same shit from ABCs in Japan, in HK, etc.

[yuuteya]

You accept my one point which flatters your political perceptions, and you refuse my my other point which doesn't. Fine, but try offering contradicting points with evidence instead of giving me this racist bullshit to shut my mouth because I'm not Japanese and so don't know anything about Japan and shouldn't "speak for Japanese people." Oh dont need to worry, noone cant stop you up :rolleyes: But you have misunderstood a point to rethink appropriation/representation issues. Simply put, sensitivity. But I guess you are insensitive? Sorry though, I wouldn't be as comfortable as you seem to be, Im not interested in culturally appropriating "Malaysians", "Chinese" or whoever else

AA misconceptions of Japan --- filtered through the twin lenses of their American view on race relations (in which lots of different Americanized kids whose only commonality is their external appearance) and their American view on Japan's white worship --- result in the tiresome assumption by AAs in Japan that hapas in Japan are either white people with Asian fetishes (whom they greet with typical Asian-American racial exclusionism) or the poor suffering children of white people with Asian fetishes (who in their minds deserve sympathy and pity from the Asian-American community as long as they pander to all their revolutionary social ideas). And plenty of them mistakenly assume that Japanese society, and Asian societies at large, approve of (or even care about) this attitude, which strengthens their resolve in applying it to people they meet. I've seen the same shit from ABCs in Japan, in HK, etc. And that personally bothers you because?...

[Trowa Sky]

Dayum, Ok Japan is crazy but not that bad, Before i ever went to Japan all i heard were stories about How Japan hates foreigners and how i would get treated like shit because i was black, or how everyone would be on my dick because I'm black. I would either be loved or treated like shit. To my surprise none of that shit really happened. Like people looked at me of course, but that wasn't that bad. The only girls that went googlie were the younger one whos' class i taught, and some girls that liked Hip-Hop. But Japan isn't that that bad, I mean yeah they have a slight superiority complex ( no one could believe that a kid who was just black and Norwegian NOT JAPANESE could speak Japanese, it's like they had to make it make "sense" by assuming my mum was Japanese) But all countries do. But i still think it will be a while before any who isn't full blooded Japanese will be accepted in Japan. Whether Hapa, other Asian, or Non Asian. But that's just to be expected from a country that cut themselves off from the rest of the world for as long as they could. Truth is I've experience more racism in the states from whites and asians then i ever have in Japan.

[YuheiCarreau]

Not exactly. As far as I understand the Japanese are educated differently about racism than Americans, whereas in America we have been taught since we were little children that racism is wrong and that it's unacceptable (and we also have classes on diversity, ethnic history, required to take multicultural classes in school, etc.), while something like this might not be as emphasized in Japan. Therefore, the Japanese who do discriminate may not fully understand that what they are doing is wrong and they are merely doing what they have known and been taught their whole lives, whereas an American who has a better understanding of right and wrong really has a bigger responsibility to uphold himself.

Take it from someone who's actually had contact with Japanese people, their racism is just as bad as anyone else's. I can't believe you're trying to make this sound like a rational argument - "if you're not aware that you're being racist, it's not as bad"? Would the same hold true for European slave traders, who thought Africans were sub-human - and therefor, that slavery was not a crime against humanity? How about the Japanese soldiers that killed so many Chinese and other Asians, justifying murder with the claim that anyone not descended from the divine Japanese race was no different from an animal? This may be the first time I try to convince a Chinese to hate the Japanese more...


How well know is this article in Japan? If it's like an obsure law in America, it might just go unnoticed. Shoot, even the first Amendment which declares freedom of speech isn't a guaranteed thing in America and you can be arrested at the airport for even joking around.

The articles of the Japanese constitution are about as well-known as the Bill of Rights. Article 9, for example, is often brought up in foreign policy discussions because that's the one that forbids Japan from having armed forces.


Considering that Japan is a homogenous society with a population of foreigners that constitute less than 1% it is easy to see why they are surprised. It is simply difficult for them to comprehend something which they have never seen before (in this case a white person speaking their language) and it would generate a reaction similar to a chicken farmer who has been a farmer his whole life seeing a blue chicken being born.

Again, I call bullshit. The Japanese are not backwoods farmers, they've got cable TV and all that good shit. They know what a White person looks like, they know that Whites who speak Japanese exist, they just pretend not to because, as part of the dominant language/race/etc. group, they don't have to think about anyone but themselves. JUST LIKE WHITE PEOPLE. Have you ever had a White American complement you on your English skills? How is that scenario any different from the one you describe?


In other words, the war generation and the people who fought in wars or have lived through wars- same as in America, in which the older population is more racist towards minorities and it wouldn't be surprising to see some old white dude talk about shooting "them Japs." Yeah, well theres really nothing we can do to change their minds and I think this mentality has been forever engraved into their heads.

But according to you, it's not real racism, right? Because they weren't ever told that it's wrong to believe stereotypes?


In other words, the media generation, the people who grew up with technology at their fingers and were more readily influenced by the media. Ultimately I feel this has been both bad and good: a major reason why the younger Japanese people are more accepting of the Korean people is because of Korean dramas and soap operas, but at the same time this media has praised David Beckham as the ideal man (and he isn't Japanese) which is going to have a disastrous effect.

... Whatever. This comment is so totally off-base, I have no idea where to start.

Yes I am, but in the same way in that although I hate idiotic losers, if that idiotic loser was my brother, I would love him.

Did you just call us idiotic losers?


We now return you to your regular programming. Let the BTR-Alibaba "hapa rage" mutual homoerotic lovefest recommence! :biggrin:

[SunWuKong]

I can't believe you're trying to make this sound like a rational argument - "if you're not aware that you're being racist, it's not as bad"? Would the same hold true for European slave traders, who thought Africans were sub-human - and therefor, that slavery was not a crime against humanity? How about the Japanese soldiers that killed so many Chinese and other Asians, justifying murder with the claim that anyone not descended from the divine Japanese race was no different from an animal?

thanks. i was going to bring up this point myself.


anyway, guys, try to stay civil in this discussion.

[yoMAMA]

Dayum, Ok Japan is crazy but not that bad, Before i ever went to Japan all i heard were stories about How Japan hates foreigners and how i would get treated like shit because i was black, or how everyone would be on my dick because I'm black. I would either be loved or treated like shit. To my surprise none of that shit really happened. Like people looked at me of course, but that wasn't that bad. The only girls that went googlie were the younger one whos' class i taught, and some girls that liked Hip-Hop. But Japan isn't that that bad, I mean yeah they have a slight superiority complex ( no one could believe that a kid who was just black and Norwegian NOT JAPANESE could speak Japanese, it's like they had to make it make "sense" by assuming my mum was Japanese) But all countries do. But i still think it will be a while before any who isn't full blooded Japanese will be accepted in Japan. Whether Hapa, other Asian, or Non Asian. But that's just to be expected from a country that cut themselves off from the rest of the world for as long as they could. Truth is I've experience more racism in the states from whites and asians then i ever have in Japan.


that is certainly an interesting perspective.

[abct]

Take it from someone who's actually had contact with Japanese people, their racism is just as bad as anyone else's. I can't believe you're trying to make this sound like a rational argument - "if you're not aware that you're being racist, it's not as bad"? Would the same hold true for European slave traders, who thought Africans were sub-human - and therefor, that slavery was not a crime against humanity? How about the Japanese soldiers that killed so many Chinese and other Asians, justifying murder with the claim that anyone not descended from the divine Japanese race was no different from an animal? This may be the first time I try to convince a Chinese to hate the Japanese more...

Wait a second, are you trying to compare mild racism to killing and slavery? There is a big difference in looking down on a white foreigner versus killing or enslaving a white foreigner. No one is being killed.

Here is my next point: European slave trading no longer exists. Why? Because eventually the Europeans realized it was wrong. The Japanese have yet to fully realize what they are doing is wrong, but once they do (if they ever do) I would expect them to act more properly.

Again, I call bullshit. The Japanese are not backwoods farmers, they've got cable TV and all that good shit. They know what a White person looks like, they know that Whites who speak Japanese exist, they just pretend not to because, as part of the dominant language/race/etc. group, they don't have to think about anyone but themselves. JUST LIKE WHITE PEOPLE. Have you ever had a White American complement you on your English skills? How is that scenario any different from the one you describe?

Can you expect cable tv to be a good teacher on diversity? Let me put it this way, if all white people in America had to solely rely on television for their information about Asians, they would think we all looked like William Hung and Long Duck Dong. Likewise in Japan, what is portrayed on TV is not going to be accurate at all. Tell me, does Japan have required multicultural classes in their High schools? Do they have parades celebrating diversity and have ethnic hertiage months?


But according to you, it's not real racism, right? Because they weren't ever told that it's wrong to believe stereotypes?


Who? Old white Americans? No, I think they understand it pretty well.

... Whatever. This comment is so totally off-base, I have no idea where to start.

How is it off-base?

Did you just call us idiotic losers?

No; but it would seem BeTheReds understood what my analogy meant.

Let me re-phrase it: Let's pretend I hate hockey players. I go and tell everyone how much I hate hockey players and that they are idiotic losers to me. But let's say one day I find out that my brother is a hockey player himself- does this mean I am going to hate him? No, I will not. Why? Simple: because he is my brother.

Is it hypocritical for me to proclaim my hatred for hockey players but still love my brother who is a hockey player? Absolutely. But that's just the way I feel, and my kinship with my brother is more important to me than that.

BTW, you can replace the word "brother" with son, father, mother, daughter, whatever. I'm just trying to emphasize that it's a matter of kinship.

[YuheiCarreau]

Wait a second, are you trying to compare mild racism to killing and slavery? There is a big difference in looking down on a white foreigner versus killing or enslaving a white foreigner. No one is being killed.

Here is my next point: European slave trading no longer exists. Why? Because eventually the Europeans realized it was wrong. The Japanese have yet to fully realize what they are doing is wrong, but once they do (if they ever do) I would expect them to act more properly.

This is a truly bizarre conversation. You condemn racism, yet you keep coming up with excuses for Japanese racism. No, I am not equating the "can you use chopsticks?" treatment of Whites in Japan to slavery, but both are motivated by the same ignorance.


Can you expect cable tv to be a good teacher on diversity? Let me put it this way, if all white people in America had to solely rely on television for their information about Asians, they would think we all looked like William Hung and Long Duck Dong. Likewise in Japan, what is portrayed on TV is not going to be accurate at all. Tell me, does Japan have required multicultural classes in their High schools? Do they have parades celebrating diversity and have ethnic hertiage months?

Now I'm just confused. You seem to be making my point for me - except for some reason, you seem to think that White Americans should be held accountable for any ignorant views on race, but Japanese should not.


Who? Old white Americans? No, I think they understand it pretty well.

Again, you've decided that there's some arbitrary factor that distinguishes White racists from Japanese racists, which makes Whites more culpable. Have you ever even met a Japanese person?


How is it off-base?

For one thing, Japanese don't worship Whites. For another, I don't really understand why it's a sign of weakness for the Japanese public to admire David Beckham; if the American media went nuts over Chow Yun-Fat, Asian Americans would cream their jeans. I think your perception of Japanese people and Japanese culture is colored by your experiences growing up in the US (I'm assuming you're American). It seems to me that you equate Whites with the majority, and Asians with the minority - which is true in the US, but not in Asia.

Asian Americans who visit Japan always come back with stories about how the Japanese worship White people, they wear clothes with English gibberish on them, "they must feel inferior! They must want to be White!". Nope, sorry, that's not how it works. Asian Americans are certainly brought up in a climate where White cultural values, White standards of beauty, etc. are constantly shoved down their throats - all of which can make a non-White person feel inferior. Asians in Asia don't have that problem; they are the majority race, the majority language, the majority everything. They treat American culture the way White Americans treat Japanese culture - as a commodity, something they can pillage quirky sayings and "exotic" images from. Do you think the rows of manga-filled bookshelves in your local B&N is evidence that White Americans worship Japanese, or that White culture is weakening when confronted with that of an Asian nation?


No; but it would seem BeTheReds understood what my analogy meant.

Let me re-phrase it: Let's pretend I hate hockey players. I go and tell everyone how much I hate hockey players and that they are idiotic losers to me. But let's say one day I find out that my brother is a hockey player himself- does this mean I am going to hate him? No, I will not. Why? Simple: because he is my brother.

Is it hypocritical for me to proclaim my hatred for hockey players but still love my brother who is a hockey player? Absolutely. But that's just the way I feel, and my kinship with my brother is more important to me than that.

BTW, you can replace the word "brother" with son, father, mother, daughter, whatever. I'm just trying to emphasize that it's a matter of kinship.

You're not my kin.

[SunWuKong]

Wait a second, are you trying to compare mild racism to killing and slavery? There is a big difference in looking down on a white foreigner versus killing or enslaving a white foreigner. No one is being killed.

Here is my next point: European slave trading no longer exists. Why? Because eventually the Europeans realized it was wrong. The Japanese have yet to fully realize what they are doing is wrong, but once they do (if they ever do) I would expect them to act more properly.

the point is that even if you were not taught to be racially tolerant, it does not excuse your racism. European slave traders were racists just the same even though they were never taught not to be racist. ok, let's not use European slave traders as an example. how about white people in the 20s and 30s that felt that blacks and Asians were genetically and morally inferior, but at the same time didn't go around lynching them? they're racists nonetheless, even though they were never taught otherwise. (genetic inferiority was the popular explanation for why non-whites were poor and less educated back in those days)

Let me re-phrase it: Let's pretend I hate hockey players. I go and tell everyone how much I hate hockey players and that they are idiotic losers to me. But let's say one day I find out that my brother is a hockey player himself- does this mean I am going to hate him? No, I will not. Why? Simple: because he is my brother.

Is it hypocritical for me to proclaim my hatred for hockey players but still love my brother who is a hockey player? Absolutely. But that's just the way I feel, and my kinship with my brother is more important to me than that.

BTW, you can replace the word "brother" with son, father, mother, daughter, whatever. I'm just trying to emphasize that it's a matter of kinship.

that's just simply the wrong assumption to make about race relations in Asia. people in Asia are aware that, for example, East Asians are similar genetically and culturally, but there's no "Asian identity" over there. you are basically using what you know of race relations in the US and trying to apply it to people in Asia. sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[abct]

This is a truly bizarre conversation. You condemn racism, yet you keep coming up with excuses for Japanese racism. No, I am not equating the "can you use chopsticks?" treatment of Whites in Japan to slavery, but both are motivated by the same ignorance.

It's not an excuse; they simply do not know better of what they are doing and I have already explained why. Their education system does not incorporate race and diversity training like Americans do.

Now I'm just confused. You seem to be making my point for me - except for some reason, you seem to think that White Americans should be held accountable for any ignorant views on race, but Japanese should not.

Again- the Japanese do not know better. Americans do.

Again, you've decided that there's some arbitrary factor that distinguishes White racists from Japanese racists, which makes Whites more culpable. Have you ever even met a Japanese person?

Yes, I have.

For one thing, Japanese don't worship Whites. For another, I don't really understand why it's a sign of weakness for the Japanese public to admire David Beckham; if the American media went nuts over Chow Yun-Fat, Asian Americans would cream their jeans. I think your perception of Japanese people and Japanese culture is colored by your experiences growing up in the US (I'm assuming you're American). It seems to me that you equate Whites with the majority, and Asians with the minority - which is true in the US, but not in Asia.

Asian Americans who visit Japan always come back with stories about how the Japanese worship White people, they wear clothes with English gibberish on them, "they must feel inferior! They must want to be White!". Nope, sorry, that's not how it works. Asian Americans are certainly brought up in a climate where White cultural values, White standards of beauty, etc. are constantly shoved down their throats - all of which can make a non-White person feel inferior. Asians in Asia don't have that problem; they are the majority race, the majority language, the majority everything. They treat American culture the way White Americans treat Japanese culture - as a commodity, something they can pillage quirky sayings and "exotic" images from. Do you think the rows of manga-filled bookshelves in your local B&N is evidence that White Americans worship Japanese, or that White culture is weakening when confronted with that of an Asian nation?


Right- and how do we explain the plunging birthrates and increasingly large number of Japanese women who are seeking Western men?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1206/p01s04-woap.html?s=rsswmh

If the Japanese are the majority in Japan, how did the women decide that Japanese men were undesirable?

You're not my kin.

I never said you were.

the point is that even if you were not taught to be racially tolerant, it does not excuse your racism. European slave traders were racists just the same even though they were never taught not to be racist. ok, let's not use European slave traders as an example. how about white people in the 20s and 30s that felt that blacks and Asians were genetically and morally inferior, but at the same time didn't go around lynching them? they're racists nonetheless, even though they were never taught otherwise. (genetic inferiority was the popular explanation for why non-whites were poor and less educated back in those days)

So let's say a 5-year old kid steals a cookie from the bakery, and a 35-year old man steal a cookie from the bakery as well. Does this mean that both the 5-year and the 35-year old are EQUALLY guilty in commiting a crime and should be equally punished? Of course not. The 5-year old does not know better and if he did, he wouldn't do it again.

that's just simply the wrong assumption to make about race relations in Asia. people in Asia are aware that, for example, East Asians are similar genetically and culturally, but there's no "Asian identity" over there. you are basically using what you know of race relations in the US and trying to apply it to people in Asia. sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Huh? All I'm saying is that if I have a preferences of either white people or Asian people, I would choose Asian people, regardless of whether or not they were from Asia. Of course I know there is no "Asian identity" there like the one we have here- and if that's the case, why do Asian Americans support Jackie Chan? Or why support Jet Li? Afterall, they're not Asian American, they're Asian. The is reason is that we're all bonded by race and although others may not be like that, I intend to be.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Right- and how do we explain the plunging birthrates and increasingly large number of Japanese women who are seeking Western men?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1206/...p.html?s=rsswmh

If the Japanese are the majority in Japan, how did the women decide that Japanese men were undesirable?
Hey look, it's category three of "The Six Stages of How White Reporters "Report" on Japan!" I must be a genius! :rolleyes:

[YuheiCarreau]

It's not an excuse; they simply do not know better of what they are doing and I have already explained why. Their education system does not incorporate race and diversity training like Americans do.

Jesus H. Christ, it's like talking to a wall. Japanese learn world history in school. Japanese study a foreign language in school, for as much as seven years. And when Japanese express ignorant and bigoted ideas about non-Japanese people, you're still gonna let them off the hook?


Again- the Japanese do not know better. Americans do.

Can you please just drop this pretense, and just admit that you get off on the idea of yellow people having the power to institutionalize their racism? Racism isn't cruel and inhuman only when the person being racist is aware of it; it's the impact it has on the victim that matters. Even if it were true, the idea that because Japanese people supposedly "don't know any better" the situation of racial/ethnic minorities like Koreans, Chinese, Philipinos, etc. in Japan isn't as bad as that of minorities in the US is ludicrous. I could go on, but I don't think you'll ever see the point.


Right- and how do we explain the plunging birthrates and increasingly large number of Japanese women who are seeking Western men?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1206/p01s04-woap.html?s=rsswmh

If the Japanese are the majority in Japan, how did the women decide that Japanese men were undesirable?

The declining birthrate is the typical result of any industrial, rapidly-urbanized country. The GDP goes up, the birthrate goes down. People have 10 kids when they want cheap labor for their farm; when they live in a cramped Tokyo apartment, the situation changes. Considering this, and the strict limitations on immigration and naturalization are in Japan, it's no surprise that the population is shrinking.

Also, Japanese women typically marry Whites when they marry out. Japanese men typically marry other Asian women when they marry out. And the last time I checked, the number of Japanese men marrying non-Japanese was greater than the number of Japanese women doing the same. I really find it odd that you justify Japanese bigotry by saying they don't know any better, yet you're jumping all over Japanese women for "selling out" their race. Why not give 'em a pass for the exact same reason?


Huh? All I'm saying is that if I have a preferences of either white people or Asian people, I would choose Asian people, regardless of whether or not they were from Asia. Of course I know there is no "Asian identity" there like the one we have here- and if that's the case, why do Asian Americans support Jackie Chan? Or why support Jet Li? Afterall, they're not Asian American, they're Asian. The is reason is that we're all bonded by race and although others may not be like that, I intend to be.

This is like a conversation I was having about Blacks internalizing White beauty standards to the point that they treat dark-skinned Blacks worse than light-skinned Blacks. The Asian version, apparently, is to internalize the idea that "all look same" means we all are the same.

I hope you never have to live in Japan, because if you do it'll be a rude awakening.

[abct]

Jesus H. Christ, it's like talking to a wall. Japanese learn world history in school. Japanese study a foreign language in school, for as much as seven years. And when Japanese express ignorant and bigoted ideas about non-Japanese people, you're still gonna let them off the hook?

Since when is world history and foreign language classes good in teaching diversity and race relations? You're kidding right? I know you can see the difference, and those teach absolutely nothing about relations.


Can you please just drop this pretense, and just admit that you get off on the idea of yellow people having the power to institutionalize their racism? Racism isn't cruel and inhuman only when the person being racist is aware of it; it's the impact it has on the victim that matters. Even if it were true, the idea that because Japanese people supposedly "don't know any better" the situation of racial/ethnic minorities like Koreans, Chinese, Philipinos, etc. in Japan isn't as bad as that of minorities in the US is ludicrous. I could go on, but I don't think you'll ever see the point.

You're wrong. I hate to see the Japanese being racist, and I truly wish they could change. I think I've made it plenty clear I that I don't condone institutionalized racism at all, but the fact remains that the Japanese people do not comprehend that what they are doing is inherently wrong.

Let me ask you this question: Suppose a 5-year old kid and a 35-year old man both steal candy from your store. As the owner of the store, would you be more likely to prosecute the kid or the full grown adult- or both? After all, according to your logic, stealing is stealing, and not having a greater knowledge of right and wrong is apparently not an excuse.

So does this mean you compelely agree that this woman, who is suing a 7-year old kid, is doing the right thing? http://www.clevescene.com/issues/2005-02-09/news/firstpunch.html

The declining birthrate is the typical result of any industrial, rapidly-urbanized country. The GDP goes up, the birthrate goes down. People have 10 kids when they want cheap labor for their farm; when they live in a cramped Tokyo apartment, the situation changes. Considering this, and the strict limitations on immigration and naturalization are in Japan, it's no surprise that the population is shrinking.

Also, Japanese women typically marry Whites when they marry out. Japanese men typically marry other Asian women when they marry out. And the last time I checked, the number of Japanese men marrying non-Japanese was greater than the number of Japanese women doing the same. I really find it odd that you justify Japanese bigotry by saying they don't know any better, yet you're jumping all over Japanese women for "selling out" their race. Why not give 'em a pass for the exact same reason?

Actually, I was responding to your insistence that the Japanese are indulging in their own culture and society ("they are the majority race, the majority language, the majority everything.") If this is really the case, why is the number of foreign marriages increasing? Why is it that, according to the article, Japanese people are increasingly looking for non-Japanese traits in a spouse when this seems so counter intuitive?

A major reason why Japanese men are seeking out other Asian women (not white women, because apparently the world doesn't perceive Asian men as being too desirable) to marry is because Japanese women are increasingly putting off marriage either for the sake of their career or (even worse) because they feel that being married to a Japanese man will be constricting to them since they're more likely to be too "traditional."

This is like a conversation I was having about Blacks internalizing White beauty standards to the point that they treat dark-skinned Blacks worse than light-skinned Blacks. The Asian version, apparently, is to internalize the idea that "all look same" means we all are the same.

So you're suggesting that unity and support is a bad thing for Asians?

And I am also curious to know how you know blacks of different shades suffer interalized white beauty standards.

I hope you never have to live in Japan, because if you do it'll be a rude awakening.

Well I'd be more likely to live in China because I am Chinese, but if I'm ever in Japan and I get treated badly, fine. I'm not going to flip out or throw a fit.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

You're wrong. I hate to see the Japanese being racist, and I truly wish they could change. I think I've made it plenty clear I that I don't condone institutionalized racism at all, but the fact remains that the Japanese people do not comprehend that what they are doing is inherently wrong.

If I may jump in, I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand here. Yuhei has repeatedly stated that the fact that they don't comprehend the immorality of their wrongdoing is no excuse for racist actions or practices, because ultimately racist actions and practices affect the victims of the racism or prejudice in negative ways. This is after giving you the benefit of the doubt that the Japanese who are racist are actually "innocent and spotless" racists who "know not what they do", which is extremely debatable. You can look at it this way: It's not so much about 'blame' or 'accusations' as it is about doing something about it so people don't get shafted.

Let me ask you this question: Suppose a 5-year old kid and a 35-year old man both steal candy from your store. As the owner of the store, would you be more likely to prosecute the kid or the full grown adult- or both? After all, according to your logic, stealing is stealing, and not having a greater knowledge of right and wrong is apparently not an excuse.

See above. Wait, let's look at this analogy another way. So you argue that the kid deserves a lesser punishment. Fine. But would you allow the kid to carry on stealing or would you take steps to educate him and tell him to cut that shit out? Are we supposed to be like "Oh, he doesn't know any better and that's just the way he is, just let him do whatever the hell he wants, we have to understand where he's coming from"? Likewise, should we say "The Japanese come from a different culture, have a different education system, with different deeply-rooted ideologies and ways of thinking, therefore their racism is not only understandable and excuseable, but we should have no problem tolerating it as they continue on with their racist practices"?

And I am also curious to know how you know blacks of different shades suffer interalized white beauty standards.

I don't have the statistics, facts, or anecdotes to back this up, but I'm pretty sure this is undisputed, much in the same way that Asians of different ethnicities suffer from internalized white beauty standards.

[YuheiCarreau]

Since when is world history and foreign language classes good in teaching diversity and race relations? You're kidding right? I know you can see the difference, and those teach absolutely nothing about relations.

What exactly are you talking about when you say "diversity and race relations"? The high school I went to was pretty PC-focused, and language and history classes were the extent of the "diversity and race relations" classes offered. My sisters went to different schools, and it was the same for them. I can't imagine that there are many high schools, public or private, that offer courses focused solely on the topic of race relations.


You're wrong. I hate to see the Japanese being racist, and I truly wish they could change. I think I've made it plenty clear I that I don't condone institutionalized racism at all, but the fact remains that the Japanese people do not comprehend that what they are doing is inherently wrong.

Let me ask you this question: Suppose a 5-year old kid and a 35-year old man both steal candy from your store. As the owner of the store, would you be more likely to prosecute the kid or the full grown adult- or both? After all, according to your logic, stealing is stealing, and not having a greater knowledge of right and wrong is apparently not an excuse.

So does this mean you compelely agree that this woman, who is suing a 7-year old kid, is doing the right thing? http://www.clevescene.com/issues/2005-02-09/news/firstpunch.html

But we're not, we're not, we are not not not talking about a 5-year old stealing candy! We are talking about adult White Americans being racist towards non-Whites, and adult Japanese being racist towards non-Japanese. You keep pretending that there's a huge difference between them, and there isn't.


Actually, I was responding to your insistence that the Japanese are indulging in their own culture and society ("they are the majority race, the majority language, the majority everything.") If this is really the case, why is the number of foreign marriages increasing? Why is it that, according to the article, Japanese people are increasingly looking for non-Japanese traits in a spouse when this seems so counter intuitive?

The number of foreign marriages is increasing because the amount of contact with foreign cultures is increasing. It is not now, nor will it ever be at epidemic levels, so why you seem to thing the Japanese people are in danger of being bred out of existance is beyond me. So there are more Japanese marrying non-Japanese, so what? Why one earth do you think this is a sign of weakness? Do you realize that you sound exactly like a White guy in the Ku Klux Klan?

I don't even understand why monoracial people make such a big fuss about interracial marriage to begin with; interracial marriages are a fraction of a percentage of all marriages. You talk about them like they're a sign of the apocalypse.

A major reason why Japanese men are seeking out other Asian women (not white women, because apparently the world doesn't perceive Asian men as being too desirable) to marry is because Japanese women are increasingly putting off marriage either for the sake of their career or (even worse) because they feel that being married to a Japanese man will be constricting to them since they're more likely to be too "traditional."

Could you be a little more patronizing? Could you tell me a little more about me and my culture? The reasons a Japanese woman has for marrying out are evidence of her own thinking, not the thinking of Japanese women as a whole. I'd say more, but it's obvious you've made up your mind already - Japanese women are marrying out because they're soulless bitches, and Japanese men are just doin' their best to deal. Whatever.

So you're suggesting that unity and support is a bad thing for Asians?

And I am also curious to know how you know blacks of different shades suffer interalized white beauty standards.

It is when it's a concept of unity dreamt up by an Asian American, who has completely different experiences and completely different priorities from Asians living in Asia. It is when it's a completely arbitrary notion of unity based on ideas about skin color (more importantly, ideas about skin color that are only believed by Americans), not on common desires or common goals. It is when it's an hysterical response to a threat that doesn't really exist.

The thing about Blacks and skin tone was being discussed by my Black professor and classmates. I've heard it from several friends besides, and it's often brought up in movies that focus on the experiences of Blacks in America - Spike Lee's SCHOOL DAZE and JUNGLE FEVER, for example.


Well I'd be more likely to live in China because I am Chinese, but if I'm ever in Japan and I get treated badly, fine. I'm not going to flip out or throw a fit.

Right... You won't throw a fit, you'll just whine a whole lot.

[SunWuKong]

this thread was split from this:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=21428

[Lt.Foo]

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I have lived in Japan for 12 years and I can tell you from my first hand experience is that Japan is a very ethnocentric nation. Yes they have been very americanized, but deep inside they are still the ethnocentric people that are them. I speak fluent Japanese, but once I tell them I'm not Japanese, they tend to kind of walk away.
Woman there are very materialistic, evidenced by the numerous Brando Shohin they want. that's a whole different story. furthermore, My friend a 3rd generation Korean whole naturalized had to change his name to a Japanese name. WTF. You can't even keep your own name.
Always remember Japanese are very deceptive in their behavior. As most people would think how polite they are, but deep inside, they are thinking, what is up with this GAIJIN. Careful out there. :mad:

[abct]

If I may jump in, I'm not sure what is so difficult to understand here. Yuhei has repeatedly stated that the fact that they don't comprehend the immorality of their wrongdoing is no excuse for racist actions or practices, because ultimately racist actions and practices affect the victims of the racism or prejudice in negative ways. This is after giving you the benefit of the doubt that the Japanese who are racist are actually "innocent and spotless" racists who "know not what they do", which is extremely debatable. You can look at it this way: It's not so much about 'blame' or 'accusations' as it is about doing something about it so people don't get shafted.

That's exactly how I feel- I don't see what is so difficult to understand. I have stated before that the Japanese do not comprehend the effects of what they are doing, and your zero tolerance stance is far too harsh.

Have you ever said something to a friend which unintentionally hurt their feelings? How would you feel if they said that they never wanted to be your friend ever again because you hurt their feelings so badly? What if they said that your "excuses" are inexcusible despite your insistence that you were never trying to hurt him?

Well, that's basically the way you are acting: cold and unforgiving, while not looking trying to understand why they think and act the way they do.

See above. Wait, let's look at this analogy another way. So you argue that the kid deserves a lesser punishment. Fine. But would you allow the kid to carry on stealing or would you take steps to educate him and tell him to cut that shit out? Are we supposed to be like "Oh, he doesn't know any better and that's just the way he is, just let him do whatever the hell he wants, we have to understand where he's coming from"? Likewise, should we say "The Japanese come from a different culture, have a different education system, with different deeply-rooted ideologies and ways of thinking, therefore their racism is not only understandable and excuseable, but we should have no problem tolerating it as they continue on with their racist practices"?

I believe I have already made it quite clear that I do want Japan to change it's ways and that once it gains a greater knowledge of racism, it should uphold a higher dignity.

I don't have the statistics, facts, or anecdotes to back this up, but I'm pretty sure this is undisputed, much in the same way that Asians of different ethnicities suffer from internalized white beauty standards.

Undisputed by who? I have known black people who have more than embraced their darker skin (phrases such as "the darker the berry, the sweeter the juice" come to mind) and had no problem with other blacks of different shades. I think it would irrational to assume that all black people suffer from this.

What exactly are you talking about when you say "diversity and race relations"? The high school I went to was pretty PC-focused, and language and history classes were the extent of the "diversity and race relations" classes offered. My sisters went to different schools, and it was the same for them. I can't imagine that there are many high schools, public or private, that offer courses focused solely on the topic of race relations.

In elementary school, each month or every other month we had projects which focused on a different nationality: Mexican, black, Chinese, French, Indian, etc. where we would read books about that nation, research their culture, have students cook ethnic food, learn their folksongs, etc. all while emphasizing the importance of diversity and how we are all equal, and this pretty much continuted all the way up until high school. Are you telling me they have this sort of thing in Japan?


But we're not, we're not, we are not not not talking about a 5-year old stealing candy! We are talking about adult White Americans being racist towards non-Whites, and adult Japanese being racist towards non-Japanese. You keep pretending that there's a huge difference between them, and there isn't.

Of course we are not talking about a 5-year old, which is why it is rightly known as an analogy. But I would appreciate if you could answer my question: should a 5-year old deserve equal punishment as a 35 year old?

The number of foreign marriages is increasing because the amount of contact with foreign cultures is increasing. It is not now, nor will it ever be at epidemic levels, so why you seem to thing the Japanese people are in danger of being bred out of existance is beyond me. So there are more Japanese marrying non-Japanese, so what? Why one earth do you think this is a sign of weakness? Do you realize that you sound exactly like a White guy in the Ku Klux Klan?

I don't even understand why monoracial people make such a big fuss about interracial marriage to begin with; interracial marriages are a fraction of a percentage of all marriages. You talk about them like they're a sign of the apocalypse.

There is a problem with interracial marriage when it is grounded in superficiality and irrationality. For example, an Asian woman marrying a white man because she feels that white men are superior is a form of racial superficiality. Or just plain racism.

And you say "the number of foreign marriages is increasing because the amount of contact with foreign cultures is increasing." This is a very broad statement, but whatever. Can you explain to me, then, why there is such a large gap between the number of Japanese women who marry white men and the number of Japanese men who marry white women? After all, if it's really just a matter of increasing contact with foreign cultures than should both numbers be about equal?

Could you be a little more patronizing? Could you tell me a little more about me and my culture? The reasons a Japanese woman has for marrying out are evidence of her own thinking, not the thinking of Japanese women as a whole. I'd say more, but it's obvious you've made up your mind already - Japanese women are marrying out because they're soulless bitches, and Japanese men are just doin' their best to deal. Whatever.

The reasons which I have stated why Japanese women choose not to marry Japanese men came directly from the article I posted. I have sources; I would not make things up.

It is when it's a concept of unity dreamt up by an Asian American, who has completely different experiences and completely different priorities from Asians living in Asia. It is when it's a completely arbitrary notion of unity based on ideas about skin color (more importantly, ideas about skin color that are only believed by Americans), not on common desires or common goals. It is when it's an hysterical response to a threat that doesn't really exist.

The thing about Blacks and skin tone was being discussed by my Black professor and classmates. I've heard it from several friends besides, and it's often brought up in movies that focus on the experiences of Blacks in America - Spike Lee's SCHOOL DAZE and JUNGLE FEVER, for example.


Actually, it's a combination of common goals, common desires AND skin color.

I also wish not to believe that you can generalize an entire race (the black race) like that. What ever problems your professor and classmates had are strictly their own, and they should not drag an entire race into their quarrels.

Right... You won't throw a fit, you'll just whine a whole lot.

Nope. I respect the Japanese people and I understand why they think and act the way they do.

[SunWuKong]

That's exactly how I feel- I don't see what is so difficult to understand. I have stated before that the Japanese do not comprehend the effects of what they are doing, and your zero tolerance stance is far too harsh.

that's like excusing all the racism in the US prior to the civil rights movement.

There is a problem with interracial marriage when it is grounded in superficiality and irrationality. For example, an Asian woman marrying a white man because she feels that white men are superior is a form of racial superficiality. Or just plain racism.

but they've never been taught about racism! so it's ok! :rolleyes:

[PropellerheadCP]

abct: Have you lived in Japan?

Also, you do realize that the article which you posted is from an American Christian Science organization. The last time I checked, they're a very "white-American centric". Could it be that the article's not necessarily accurate? I mean, you can't really trust CNN, so what makes the article any more legitimate?

I have a little bit of a theory that I like to share, about the whole "Japanese women marrying more white people" topic. I think a lot of it has to do with business and the amount of men that travel around. For example, it seems like there are a lot of white American men who are traveling to Japan to teach. There aren't as many women. This is based on what my friend, who's teaching in Japan (female and Chinese, for those who are curious) told me. On the same note, there are a lot of American women who find love in Japan, also. It's just that there aren't really that many women who teach there.

Likewise, there are a lot of Japanese men who travel around for business purposes. If they stay long enough outside of Japan, they're going to find love, as well.

On a side note, I know a lot of Asian men who grew up outside of North America, who think that non-Asian women aren't attractive, because they don't age well. Perhaps that may have something to do with why Asian men don't really like to marry non-Asian women.

Of course, the people who live in North America may have different points of views, but lets keep in mind that people's experiences are a lot different, in other countries. More importantly, the culture is different. So I don't think it's cool for anyone to assume too much about the mentalities of people in other countries, where some of us don't really know about.

[YuheiCarreau]

In elementary school, each month or every other month we had projects which focused on a different nationality: Mexican, black, Chinese, French, Indian, etc. where we would read books about that nation, research their culture, have students cook ethnic food, learn their folksongs, etc. all while emphasizing the importance of diversity and how we are all equal, and this pretty much continuted all the way up until high school. Are you telling me they have this sort of thing in Japan?

Yes, Japanese children do learn about other cultures in elementary school. I find it rather strange that you think "X culture day" in American elementary schools, which are typically about food and traditional costumes, provide a thorough enough education on other cultures for White Americans to then be fully aware of the impact of their racism later in life. I personally think the education system in both countries does a terrible job at really giving students the perspective of other cultures, but the classes in the US are not very different from those in Japan. You're assuming there's a difference, based on WHAT I can't imagine since it seems like you've never even been to Japan.

For reasons defying logic, you keep promoting this idea that Japanese are not aware of their racism, and Whites are but don't care - and that because the Japanese are not as aware, they're not as culpable. I think it's the opposite, that both Whites and Japanese are largely ignorant of their racism - both because their status as racial majority allows them to be ignorant of the experiences of the minority, and because of the simple fact that no one thinks of themself as the villain. However I still believe they are responsible for their actions, and for the damage they cause. If you still can't understand that, I don't think you ever will.


Of course we are not talking about a 5-year old, which is why it is rightly known as an analogy. But I would appreciate if you could answer my question: should a 5-year old deserve equal punishment as a 35 year old?

Forget about the damn kid. The kid stealing candy is irrelevant. We're not talking about a 5-year-old stealing candy, and knowing how I feel about a that situation wouldn't give you any insight into how I feel about the of Japanese racism vs. White racism.

The question you ought to be asking is, "Does a Japanese racist do as much damage to his/her victim as a White American racist? Is Japanese racism motivated by the same fear, hatred, and ignorance as White American racism? Should they each be expected to treat their countries' racial minorities with the same civility and respect? Are they equally responsible for their crimes?" My answer to all of those questions is yes.


There is a problem with interracial marriage when it is grounded in superficiality and irrationality. For example, an Asian woman marrying a white man because she feels that white men are superior is a form of racial superficiality. Or just plain racism.

I can agree with this statement. However, I don't think it's the real reason for your interest in Japanese outmarriage, nor do I think it's the primary reason you object to them. The most basic problem that people who lobby against IR marriages have is that they're busybodies; two total strangers get married, a decision that really only affects them, and you just can't stop talking about it.

There will always be IR couples getting married for superficial reasons, and there will always be many, many more monoracial couples that get married for equally superficial reasons. Not only is that NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS to begin with, it's something that's been going on since the beginning of time, and something that has yet to cause the collapse of ANY civilization. Get over it.

And you say "the number of foreign marriages is increasing because the amount of contact with foreign cultures is increasing." This is a very broad statement, but whatever. Can you explain to me, then, why there is such a large gap between the number of Japanese women who marry white men and the number of Japanese men who marry white women? After all, if it's really just a matter of increasing contact with foreign cultures than should both numbers be about equal?

They are about equal. In fact, they're out of balance, because as I've stated many times, more Japanese men marry out than Japanese women. Why do most of the Japanese women marrying out marry White men? Why aren't there more White women in Japan marrying Japanese men? I can't answer this question with a simple, one-line answer, because there are a multiplicity of factors to consider - and any person, or any magazine article, that claims otherwise is fulla shit.


The reasons which I have stated why Japanese women choose not to marry Japanese men came directly from the article I posted. I have sources; I would not make things up.

So, you're using a magazine article as the basis of your assumptions? Not, say, any actual contact with a Japanese man or or woman in an IR marriage? Or better still, a whole group of Japanese men and women in IR relationships?


Actually, it's a combination of common goals, common desires AND skin color.

I also wish not to believe that you can generalize an entire race (the black race) like that. What ever problems your professor and classmates had are strictly their own, and they should not drag an entire race into their quarrels.

Wait a minute. You've decided, based on a magazine article and some pent-up feelings of agression towards "sellout" Asian women, to make massive sweeping generalizations about the cultural identity of the Japanese, the reasons for Japanese outmarriage, and a billion other things that you can't possibly know, and now you're telling ME not to make generalizations? :biggrin:

In the interest of saving time and avoiding more pointless divergences, I think we should quit discussing this subject in this thread.


Nope. I respect the Japanese people and I understand why they think and act the way they do.

I sincerely doubt that. But hey, I'm Japanese, can you tell me why I think and act the way I do? Can you tell me why my thinking is completely at odds with your ridiculous perception of Japanese thinking?

[yuuteya]

Dayum, Ok Japan is crazy but not that bad, Before i ever went to Japan all i heard were stories about How Japan hates foreigners and how i would get treated like shit because i was black, or how everyone would be on my dick because I'm black. I would either be loved or treated like shit. To my surprise none of that shit really happened. Like people looked at me of course, but that wasn't that bad. The only girls that went googlie were the younger one whos' class i taught, and some girls that liked Hip-Hop. But Japan isn't that that bad, I mean yeah they have a slight superiority complex ( no one could believe that a kid who was just black and Norwegian NOT JAPANESE could speak Japanese, it's like they had to make it make "sense" by assuming my mum was Japanese) But all countries do. But i still think it will be a while before any who isn't full blooded Japanese will be accepted in Japan. Whether Hapa, other Asian, or Non Asian. But that's just to be expected from a country that cut themselves off from the rest of the world for as long as they could. Truth is I've experience more racism in the states from whites and asians then i ever have in Japan.

Excellent point. btw did you talk to those Africans hang out in front of shops that try to play on their Blackness by passing off as African American hip hop, but they cant even speak english or rap, not that others notice theyre playing with images.. Yah, youre right, Japan is actually not that bad, sorry to disagree with all the unsatisfied customers...

Rather than think that there is just one kind of 'racism' blob that can be called the same around the world, there are actually different kinds of discrimination systems operating differently in each distinct place. The problem is the very word 'RACE' and the idea of a 'RACE-ism' itself has become so popular, that people forget they have a particular cultural history. The idea of 'Race' actually has a very distinct and particular history in Western Europe, so that 'Race', as most English-North Americans may think of it, is actually Not a universal idea... There is a long history behind 'Race', which if you look into, will give you a better handle on what 'Race' actually is, and what 'Racisms' actually are. Each 'discrimination system' is different because of different historical circumstances, and different cultural ideas... Popular English words like "White", "Black" and "Asian", based on 'Race' discrimination, might not mean the same thing for everyone around the world, that is if they even have those terms to begin with... And so the discrimination against targetted groups operates differently in each cultural case... But most dont ever look deeply into those differences, they just prefer to paint everyone with the same dark brush of 'racism'

Yah, I agree, North America, has a much longer and seriously devastating racist culture (discrimination based on 'race')... And now that America is the Worlds Top Super Dog, all those American 'race' & racial ideas get spread around, and enter the minds of millions of people who dont even live in America... thats when it gets even more complicated...

[abct]

that's like excusing all the racism in the US prior to the civil rights movement.

I think you've said this already. But I'll answer similarly with what I did previously: why does slavery no longer exist? Because eventually they realized what they were doing was wrong. It takes a concious effort for people to wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong before they can change their ways.

but they've never been taught about racism! so it's ok!

I was responding to his question about why monoracial people can sometimes be against interracial marriage; this isn't just limited to the Japanese but to blacks, whites, Asians, etc.

abct: Have you lived in Japan?

No.

Also, you do realize that the article which you posted is from an American Christian Science organization. The last time I checked, they're a very "white-American centric". Could it be that the article's not necessarily accurate? I mean, you can't really trust CNN, so what makes the article any more legitimate?

Technically, wouldn't any Americans news source be white-American centric? Even the local news I watch on tv only really talked about white Americans who died from the Asian Tsunami. What makes them credible and unbiased?

For what it's worth, I haven't seen anyone else try and back up what they say with anything other than their own words.

I have a little bit of a theory that I like to share, about the whole "Japanese women marrying more white people" topic. I think a lot of it has to do with business and the amount of men that travel around. For example, it seems like there are a lot of white American men who are traveling to Japan to teach. There aren't as many women. This is based on what my friend, who's teaching in Japan (female and Chinese, for those who are curious) told me. On the same note, there are a lot of American women who find love in Japan, also. It's just that there aren't really that many women who teach there.

My question is: why are so many white American men going to Japan to teach?

On a side note, I know a lot of Asian men who grew up outside of North America, who think that non-Asian women aren't attractive, because they don't age well. Perhaps that may have something to do with why Asian men don't really like to marry non-Asian women.

I hardly think the whole old age thing has anything to do with it. When you're in school and you see someone you like, you're not automatically going to think "I wonder what she's going to look like 30 years from now?" I also am aware of many Asian men who do like non-Asian women.

Yes, Japanese children do learn about other cultures in elementary school. I find it rather strange that you think "X culture day" in American elementary schools, which are typically about food and traditional costumes, provide a thorough enough education on other cultures for White Americans to then be fully aware of the impact of their racism later in life. I personally think the education system in both countries does a terrible job at really giving students the perspective of other cultures, but the classes in the US are not very different from those in Japan. You're assuming there's a difference, based on WHAT I can't imagine since it seems like you've never even been to Japan.

For reasons defying logic, you keep promoting this idea that Japanese are not aware of their racism, and Whites are but don't care - and that because the Japanese are not as aware, they're not as culpable. I think it's the opposite, that both Whites and Japanese are largely ignorant of their racism - both because their status as racial majority allows them to be ignorant of the experiences of the minority, and because of the simple fact that no one thinks of themself as the villain. However I still believe they are responsible for their actions, and for the damage they cause. If you still can't understand that, I don't think you ever will.

The American education doesn't provide a thorough education on other cultures? What do you want them to do, send kids on field trips around the world? They are going to do their best and if you want to be critical of that, fine, but I don't know exactly what it is you want that would produce a child that is up to your standards.

The Japanese are responsible for their actions, but when they do not fully comprehend what they are doing it no longer becomes a black and white issue. The problem is you see the world as being black and white with nothing in between.

Forget about the damn kid. The kid stealing candy is irrelevant. We're not talking about a 5-year-old stealing candy, and knowing how I feel about a that situation wouldn't give you any insight into how I feel about the of Japanese racism vs. White racism.

The question you ought to be asking is, "Does a Japanese racist do as much damage to his/her victim as a White American racist? Is Japanese racism motivated by the same fear, hatred, and ignorance as White American racism? Should they each be expected to treat their countries' racial minorities with the same civility and respect? Are they equally responsible for their crimes?" My answer to all of those questions is yes.

This analogy is VERY relevant, and I see you have chosen not to answer it again. And of course we're not talking about a 5-year old kid, and (for the second time) it's because it's an analogy. The Japanese is to the 5 year old as the Americans are to the 35 year old.

Since you feel that the Japanese and Americans are equally guilty of racism, we are led to believe that you likewise feel the 5 year old and 35 year old are likewise equally guilty regardless of whether or not they understand what they did is right or wrong. Am I right?

I can agree with this statement. However, I don't think it's the real reason for your interest in Japanese outmarriage, nor do I think it's the primary reason you object to them. The most basic problem that people who lobby against IR marriages have is that they're busybodies; two total strangers get married, a decision that really only affects them, and you just can't stop talking about it.

There will always be IR couples getting married for superficial reasons, and there will always be many, many more monoracial couples that get married for equally superficial reasons. Not only is that NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS to begin with, it's something that's been going on since the beginning of time, and something that has yet to cause the collapse of ANY civilization. Get over it

It becomes my buisness when Asian women decide to discriminate against me saying things like "Asian men are ugly, short, effeminate, etc." It becomes my buisness when I am discriminated against (which has happened to me), and if you're going to argue that no civilization has collapsed because people were racist, great. Whatever.

They are about equal. In fact, they're out of balance, because as I've stated many times, more Japanese men marry out than Japanese women. Why do most of the Japanese women marrying out marry White men? Why aren't there more White women in Japan marrying Japanese men? I can't answer this question with a simple, one-line answer, because there are a multiplicity of factors to consider - and any person, or any magazine article, that claims otherwise is fulla shit.

More Japanese men are marrying out, but they are not marrying interracially. They are marrying Asian women of other ethnicities, but Japanese women are marrying interracially on a much larger scale. There is a difference.

And as for why more white men marry Japanese women- I'm sure you understand that stereotypes, preceived exoticism and the like play a large role in all of this. Check out BTR's own personal story for just one example of many I have heard: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2378&start=0

So, you're using a magazine article as the basis of your assumptions? Not, say, any actual contact with a Japanese man or or woman in an IR marriage? Or better still, a whole group of Japanese men and women in IR relationships?

I've studied the IR issue for years and I have talked with numerous people, read the workds of Darell Hamamoto, read countless articles and reports... that article was just one of many I have read. Here's another thought-provoking read by Juila Oh, who is a Korean activist: http://web.archive.org/web/20040208182415/http://www.yellohgirls.com/features/00000027.html

And here are some more articles:
http://modelminority.com/article935.html
http://modelminority.com/article910.html
http://modelminority.com/article845.html

Wait a minute. You've decided, based on a magazine article and some pent-up feelings of agression towards "sellout" Asian women, to make massive sweeping generalizations about the cultural identity of the Japanese, the reasons for Japanese outmarriage, and a billion other things that you can't possibly know, and now you're telling ME not to make generalizations?

In the interest of saving time and avoiding more pointless divergences, I think we should quit discussing this subject in this thread.

See above. I am not basing everything on a single article nor do I have pent-up feelings.

I sincerely doubt that. But hey, I'm Japanese, can you tell me why I think and act the way I do? Can you tell me why my thinking is completely at odds with your ridiculous perception of Japanese thinking?

You are Japanese, but were you born in Japan and have you lived in Japan your whole life? Has living in the Western world shaped and influenced your thoughts and the way you preceive things?

[YuheiCarreau]

Excellent point. btw did you talk to those Africans hang out in front of shops that try to play on their Blackness by passing off as African American hip hop, but they cant even speak english or rap, not that others notice theyre playing with images.. Yah, youre right, Japan is actually not that bad, sorry to disagree with all the unsatisfied customers...

Rather than think that there is just one kind of 'racism' blob that can be called the same around the world, there are actually different kinds of discrimination systems operating differently in each distinct place. The problem is the very word 'RACE' and the idea of a 'RACE-ism' itself has become so popular, that people forget they have a particular cultural history. The idea of 'Race' actually has a very distinct and particular history in Western Europe, so that 'Race', as most English-North Americans may think of it, is actually Not a universal idea... There is a long history behind 'Race', which if you look into, will give you a better handle on what 'Race' actually is, and what 'Racisms' actually are. Each 'discrimination system' is different because of different historical circumstances, and different cultural ideas... Popular English words like "White", "Black" and "Asian", based on 'Race' discrimination, might not mean the same thing for everyone around the world, that is if they even have those terms to begin with... And so the discrimination against targetted groups operates differently in each cultural case... But most dont ever look deeply into those differences, they just prefer to paint everyone with the same dark brush of 'racism'

Yah, I agree, North America, has a much longer and seriously devastating racist culture (discrimination based on 'race')... And now that America is the Worlds Top Super Dog, all those American 'race' & racial ideas get spread around, and enter the minds of millions of people who dont even live in America... thats when it gets even more complicated...

IMO the only major difference between racism in Japan and racism in the US is that in America, the majority is in close contact with the minority far more often. Experience has shown me that people don't really become racist until the "other" lives among them, and in Japan there are far fewer "others" than in the US.

The American education doesn't provide a thorough education on other cultures? What do you want them to do, send kids on field trips around the world? They are going to do their best and if you want to be critical of that, fine, but I don't know exactly what it is you want that would produce a child that is up to your standards.

The Japanese are responsible for their actions, but when they do not fully comprehend what they are doing it no longer becomes a black and white issue. The problem is you see the world as being black and white with nothing in between.

You are the most bizarre person I have ever met. Now White Americans are doing their best, and have nothing to be ashamed of?


This analogy is VERY relevant, and I see you have chosen not to answer it again. And of course we're not talking about a 5-year old kid, and (for the second time) it's because it's an analogy. The Japanese is to the 5 year old as the Americans are to the 35 year old.

Since you feel that the Japanese and Americans are equally guilty of racism, we are led to believe that you likewise feel the 5 year old and 35 year old are likewise equally guilty regardless of whether or not they understand what they did is right or wrong. Am I right?

In fact you're wrong. Since you're never gonna give this up, my answer to your hypothetical question is that I believe a grown man is responsible for knowing right from wrong, while a child still has much to learn. But hey, let's not stop here. Let's introduce a couple more wrinkles into this analogy - what if the man is mentally retarded? What if the child is a street kid, who makes his living by stealing? What if he's led a totally comfortable life, given everything he could ever want, while the man's life has been one of struggle and hardship? If we were talking about a real situation, not some bullshit you made up to substantiate your circular logic, all these factors would have to be considered before one could pass judgment.

Of course, none of those would be a factor in discussing the relative cruelty of Japanese racism vs. that of White American racism. WHICH IS WHY IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION. Analogies are useful in SAT word problems, not real life.


It becomes my buisness when Asian women decide to discriminate against me saying things like "Asian men are ugly, short, effeminate, etc." It becomes my buisness when I am discriminated against (which has happened to me), and if you're going to argue that no civilization has collapsed because people were racist, great. Whatever.

Awww, poor baby. I guess your dream of marrying a Japanese woman will never be fulfilled.


More Japanese men are marrying out, but they are not marrying interracially. They are marrying Asian women of other ethnicities, but Japanese women are marrying interracially on a much larger scale. There is a difference.

And as for why more white men marry Japanese women- I'm sure you understand that stereotypes, preceived exoticism and the like play a large role in all of this. Check out BTR's own personal story for just one example of many I have heard: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2378&start=0

And do you think stereotypes and perceived exoticism aren't a factor in the outmarriage of Japanese men? Do you think they're marrying Chinese, Korean, and other Asian women because they're searching for that magic yellow kinship you talk about?


I've studied the IR issue for years and I have talked with numerous people, read the workds of Darell Hamamoto, read countless articles and reports... that article was just one of many I have read. Here's another thought-provoking read by Juila Oh, who is a Korean activist: http://web.archive.org/web/20040208182415/http://www.yellohgirls.com/features/00000027.html

And here are some more articles:
http://modelminority.com/article935.html
http://modelminority.com/article910.html
http://modelminority.com/article845.html

Fuck Julia Oh. She's full of shit, and so are you.


See above. I am not basing everything on a single article nor do I have pent-up feelings.

You say you're mackin' on Asian women, but you're obsessed with IR relationships. There are billions upon billions of Asian men and women marrying people of their own race and ethnicity, and you choose to focus on the handful that don't. You don't have any feelings on the issue? Then let it rest, get your nose out of other people's business, and worry about your own happiness. If a woman turns you down for an arbitrary reason, whether it be race, money, religion, whatever; walk away and forget about it. Don't devote your life to spreading lies and spewing anger.


You are Japanese, but were you born in Japan and have you lived in Japan your whole life? Has living in the Western world shaped and influenced your thoughts and the way you preceive things?

Well, if you're going to take me to task for not being "Japanese enough", I'd have to point out that the authors of those articles you've cited around are even less qualified than I am. Julia Oh? Shi Chen? Jon Chang, Bryce Feng, Darrell Hamamoto? Are those all people who've lived in Japan and been shaped by Japanese thought?

I've heard my whole life from Japanese people that I have a responsibility to be more Japanese, and also that I can never be Japanese enough. If you think that argument holds any more water coming from you, you've got your head up your ass.

[SunWuKong]

I think you've said this already. But I'll answer similarly with what I did previously: why does slavery no longer exist? Because eventually they realized what they were doing was wrong. It takes a concious effort for people to wake up and realize what they are doing is wrong before they can change their ways.

i wasn't talking about slavery. i was talking about pre-civil rights US. i was talking about: making blacks sit in the back of the bus, having "whites only" bathrooms, restaurants, etc, regularly calling them nigger. all those things. are they excusable, too, just because people back then weren't taught not to be racist? does it make them any less responsible?



I was responding to his question about why monoracial people can sometimes be against interracial marriage; this isn't just limited to the Japanese but to blacks, whites, Asians, etc.

irrelevant. according to your logic, women in Asia are excusable if they want to only date white men because they weren't taught about racism!

[hkRT]

I get what abct meant although I don't agree with his views on racism. I think that everyone comes to their own particular views based largely on their own personal experiences. I do think that racist people come from different races and ethnicities. But the prevalences and extent of racism differ, depending on where you live, what your own ethnic background is, and the general attitudes and perceptions people have in a particular location.

I have not lived in Japan myself. I have been there as a tourist when I was a kid. I have also been a tourist to Australia. Both were just about a week's visit. As tourists, my family and I experienced a lot of racism in Australia, about 3 racist incidences in just one week. In Japan, I did not experience any racism during my stay. It was actually an enjoyable trip. I remember I was standing in a train full of people, a Japanese woman sitting there gestured to me and kindly offered her seat to me. That was very nice of her. But these are just my experiences. Every person is different. It will definitely be different for a person to actually live in these places, as opposed to just touring.

I think that people first discriminate mainly based on how you look and how different you are from them. If you are asian, some of you may be able to pass off as any asian-- like you may be mistaken as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Malaysian, etc. I personally have been mistaken as a number of asian ethnicities by various people of different asian ethnicities. Similarly, if you are white, you will likely pass off as any white--- like you may be English, French, German, etc. Just like a former colleague told me that she was perceived as Danish by the locals when she visited Danmark although she was plain English. If you are mixed, you may be mistaken as an even greater number of different ethnicities, depending on how you look. Then after people get to know you more, then they will start to see you as your own ethnicity. And if those people who have racist beliefs in the first place, they will be racist and hateful, regardless of what their race is and what they have mistaken you as. If they are not racist and are open-minded, then they will just see you as any person, no matter what ethnicity you look like or what ethnicity you actually are.

[BeTheReds]

Why do most of the Japanese women marrying out marry White men?


For the record this is an assumption that is not true. Although certainly a larger percent of Japanese women who marry out marry white, (I think I read somewhere that 1 in 4 Japanese women who marry out marry people who hail from the USA, Australia, or Great Britain. But even then, how many of these guys are white? Probably most of them, but the numbers become smaller when you take into account that among the American, Aussie, and Brit populations in Japan, there are minorities within their ranks.)

Most Japanese women who marry out are also marrying other Asians(at the very least 3 in 4), especially Koreans.(almost half of the outmarryers are marrying Koreans)



And as for why more white men marry Japanese women- I'm sure you understand that stereotypes, preceived exoticism and the like play a large role in all of this. Check out BTR's own personal story for just one example of many I have heard: http://www.thefighting44s.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=2378&start=0



First, don't quote me, for your bullshit argument.

Second, that story doesn't say anything about Asian women, other than that I think his bride to be isn't the most beautiful of women. Most of that story is all about the white guy.

Furthermore, his only crime is being white and liking Asian chicks. He's not racist, he doesn't think Asian chicks are easy, and isn't into all that Asian chicks are submissive bullshit. He was a frickin dorky loser who couldn't get women at all. If he had ended up with a hotter than hot japanese model or something then my story might help you out a little bit. However, he ended up with an ugly 35 year old woman (way past marrying age in Japan) who's biological clock is ticking. I don't see how 2 ugly socially inept people settling for each other helps your argument in the slightest.


And your argument is crap. Japanese may or may not know better, but guess what? Why should any rural American know any better? If you go to the middle of frickin bumblefuck Iowa and people are racist to you, wouldn't it be okay, because they've never seen an Asian person before? They haven't been taught about racism from their parents, and every person they've ever interacted with is white. So when they are amazed you speak english...

It's like a chicken farmer who sees a hen give birth to a blue chick!

They don't know what the fuck they are doing. Are they suddenly off the hook too?

[BeTheReds]

misquoted, here's the real quote
it would generate a reaction similar to a chicken farmer who has been a farmer his whole life seeing a blue chicken being born.

Either way though, hypocracy

[abct]

You are the most bizarre person I have ever met. Now White Americans are doing their best, and have nothing to be ashamed of?


You're getting off track. I said if the American education system in regards to race is so inefficient, where else in the world would you like them to go and learn? I actually do think it's doing a good job, but regardless, American is still churning out racist people, people who should have no excuse to be so ignorant.

In fact you're wrong. Since you're never gonna give this up, my answer to your hypothetical question is that I believe a grown man is responsible for knowing right from wrong, while a child still has much to learn.

Wait a second, this COMPLETELY contradicts what you said about how the Japanese, who know not what they are doing, should not be absolved from their blame. Therefore your logic is flawed and it is clear to me that you yourself do not know what you are saying. So please stop.

But hey, let's not stop here. Let's introduce a couple more wrinkles into this analogy - what if the man is mentally retarded? What if the child is a street kid, who makes his living by stealing? What if he's led a totally comfortable life, given everything he could ever want, while the man's life has been one of struggle and hardship? If we were talking about a real situation, not some bullshit you made up to substantiate your circular logic, all these factors would have to be considered before one could pass judgment.


In my analogy, we assumed that the 5-year old was about average intelligence for his age and that the 35-year old was about average intelligence for his age.

So tell me, does this mean in school when you were given a math problem such as "If a train leaves the station going 40 mph and arrives at it's destination in 2 hours, how far did the train travel?" did you have to have the teacher clarify whether:

-the track the train traveled on level ground?
-whether the air resistance affected the train?
-Whether the clocks used to time the train were adjusted properly?
-whether the speedometer on the train was accurate?

Yes, all these factors would have to be considered before one could pass judgment.

Of course, none of those would be a factor in discussing the relative cruelty of Japanese racism vs. that of White American racism. WHICH IS WHY IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION. Analogies are useful in SAT word problems, not real life.

And how exactly is it not relevant?

Awww, poor baby. I guess your dream of marrying a Japanese woman will never be fulfilled.

I was responding to your incorrect claim that it's "none of my buisness" if an Asian woman has superficial racial preferences and how it is my buisness when she discriminates me. Am I right? Am I right?

And do you think stereotypes and perceived exoticism aren't a factor in the outmarriage of Japanese men? Do you think they're marrying Chinese, Korean, and other Asian women because they're searching for that magic yellow kinship you talk about?

No, because most Japanese men do not marry interracially. Perhaps the few who do probably would, but I don't think it's right either.

Fuck Julia Oh. She's full of shit, and so are you.

Ah, yes. When you have nothing better to say, just insult the other person. Your whole logic and rationality is crumbling and also you are resorting to personal attacks which are against the rules.

You say you're mackin' on Asian women, but you're obsessed with IR relationships. There are billions upon billions of Asian men and women marrying people of their own race and ethnicity, and you choose to focus on the handful that don't. You don't have any feelings on the issue? Then let it rest, get your nose out of other people's business, and worry about your own happiness. If a woman turns you down for an arbitrary reason, whether it be race, money, religion, whatever; walk away and forget about it. Don't devote your life to spreading lies and spewing anger.

Right- and we can also easily argue that there are billions and billions of non-racist people in this world, but we choose to pick on those on those handful of Nazis and KKK's out there, and that really it's none of our buisness what they choose to do....according to your logic. The NAACP and Anti-Defamation League must really be wasting their time when they should really focus on their own happiness, huh?

Well, if you're going to take me to task for not being "Japanese enough", I'd have to point out that the authors of those articles you've cited around are even less qualified than I am. Julia Oh? Shi Chen? Jon Chang, Bryce Feng, Darrell Hamamoto? Are those all people who've lived in Japan and been shaped by Japanese thought?

I've heard my whole life from Japanese people that I have a responsibility to be more Japanese, and also that I can never be Japanese enough. If you think that argument holds any more water coming from you, you've got your head up your ass.

Read what I wrote again, only this time carefully and slowly. I never accused you of not being Japanese enough, I merely asked you a series of questions which just so happened to go unanswered. Sorry, but if you can't do something as easy as reading carefully, I'm not sure how credible anything else you say is. As for the authors you listed, they are workers in the field of interracial dating, not Japan. My purpose (if you had read carefully) was to show you a sample of the literature of what has influenced me and what I have learned. But you're right; if this was a matter of Japanese identity (which it ISN'T) you would have them beat.

i wasn't talking about slavery. i was talking about pre-civil rights US. i was talking about: making blacks sit in the back of the bus, having "whites only" bathrooms, restaurants, etc, regularly calling them nigger. all those things. are they excusable, too, just because people back then weren't taught not to be racist? does it make them any less responsible?

No, they are very responsible, and I will tell you why. They were responsible for physical abuse, segregation, vandalism, and so much more. None of this is right.

The Japanese, I trust, have been educated to know that killing is wrong. That segregation is wrong. That vandalism is wrong. That the atrocities such as these are condemned and should not exist.

But racism? Oh wait, there are many forms of racism that exist, and not all racism necessarily leads to bloodshed and violence.

irrelevant. according to your logic, women in Asia are excusable if they want to only date white men because they weren't taught about racism!

You're right. They are excusable, however I sincerely wish to educate them about why it is wrong so they may understand.

First, don't quote me, for your bullshit argument.

I will respect your wishes.

Second, that story doesn't say anything about Asian women, other than that I think his bride to be isn't the most beautiful of women. Most of that story is all about the white guy.

Furthermore, his only crime is being white and liking Asian chicks. He's not racist, he doesn't think Asian chicks are easy, and isn't into all that Asian chicks are submissive bullshit. He was a frickin dorky loser who couldn't get women at all. If he had ended up with a hotter than hot japanese model or something then my story might help you out a little bit. However, he ended up with an ugly 35 year old woman (way past marrying age in Japan) who's biological clock is ticking. I don't see how 2 ugly socially inept people settling for each other helps your argument in the slightest.

Interesting; my question is, was there a particular reason why he chose to target Asian women? You say that he wasn't interested in the idea that Asian women are submissive, but if that's the case then what was his main motivating factor?

But anyways, I belive you. I admit I did assume that this dorky white guy was a racist who believed his chances with women would improve if she were Asian- it seemed like a natural fit.

And your argument is crap. Japanese may or may not know better, but guess what? Why should any rural American know any better? If you go to the middle of frickin bumblefuck Iowa and people are racist to you, wouldn't it be okay, because they've never seen an Asian person before? They haven't been taught about racism from their parents, and every person they've ever interacted with is white. So when they are amazed you speak english... They don't know what the fuck they are doing. Are they suddenly off the hook too?

Yes. I stand by my 5 year old/35 year old analogy; these people are no better than little children mentally in regards to racism (among other things) and I have extreme pity for people such as these. In my view, the bigger threat is a racist person who is control of a media corporation who has the money and influence to spread his racist views on thousands and thousands of people.

Either way though, hypocracy

And you can call me a hypocrite all you want to and think whatever you want about me. It doesn't mean you are right or wrong.

[BeTheReds]

Tell me, does Japan have required multicultural classes in their High schools? Do they have parades celebrating diversity and have ethnic hertiage months?



No,but neither does America, Yes, and No, but why does that matter respectively...


On the first one, no, Japan doesn't have required multicultural classes in high schools. Then again high school isn't mandatory for anyone. Although I do teach a class called cross cultural understanding, in a Japanese High School if that matters. The USA doesn't have required multicultural courses in HS at all besides foreign language, and if you're gonna count that, Japan beats America on this by requiring that everone start studying a foreign language as early as the beginning of JHS.

There are ethnic carnivals and multicultural fairs in my own town once every few months. Just as in the US, no one ever gives a shit about them other than the people for whom they are held.

No there aren't ethnic heritage months, but even those aren't mandatory in America either.

[kusojiji]

It becomes my buisness when Asian women decide to discriminate against me saying things like "Asian men are ugly, short, effeminate, etc."


LOL

Sounds like you are a short, ugly, effeminate dude who can't get any and is really pissed about the whole scene.


Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, the problem is not a racial one but simply that you are a loser?

[bulldog]

LOL

Sounds like you are a short, ugly, effeminate dude who can't get any and is really pissed about the whole scene.


Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, the problem is not a racial one but simply that you are a loser?

Let the real asian men speak.

[kusojiji]

Let the real asian men speak.


Are you discriminating, pyungshin?

[abct]

I have spoken with a acquaintance living in Japan (who is mixed himself and well accepted there) who had this to say about Japanese racism on other Asian minorities:

"Japan's society works on the assimilation principle of joining a tightly-knit group. If you are East Asian and you want to be included into the Japanese society you have to actively participate in society and sincerely demonstrate comittment to live a Japanese life, and that you wish to give up your previous ethnic allegiance/identity and totally join the Japanese. I have known many mainland Chinese, Taiwan, and Koreans who intentionaly came to Japan, imigrate, voluntarily change their old identity and became 'Japanese people' themselves. They seemed happy to become Japanese. Ironically alot of those Japanese that seem exclusive of foreigners are actually with Chinese or Korean ancestry in their past. This voluntary switching identity has been going on for centuries, but has been overlooked by those people who use accuse 'racism', as if Japan's system is the same as american's white racism. But you see, it is not the same. Those Chinese and Koreans that remain 'minority' are excluded by Japanese society because they dont want to become 'Japanese' but intentionally keep their previous ethnic identity and previous culture for whatever reason. That's how it works here... so its not like American racism, but its more like an allegiance/identity thing."

Well, this certainly paints a much different picture from the horrors of being a Chinese in Japan.

[kusojiji]

"Japan's society works on the assimilation principle of joining a tightly-knit group. If you are East Asian and you want to be included into the Japanese society you have to actively participate in society and sincerely demonstrate comittment to live a Japanese life, and that you wish to give up your previous ethnic allegiance/identity and totally join the Japanese. But you see, it is not the same. Those Chinese and Koreans that remain 'minority' are excluded by Japanese society because they dont want to become 'Japanese' but intentionally keep their previous ethnic identity and previous culture for whatever reason. That's how it works here... so its not like American racism .


That's exactly what American racism is about!

[bulldog]

Are you discriminating, pyungshin?

For you yes.

[mrazntre]

This thread is closed.

I'll open it again if you all promise to be nice little children and behave.

[SunWuKong]

kusojiji has been temporarily banned, so i'll re-open the thread.

let's try to remain civil to each other.


anyway, i think i'm going to stop commenting on Japan. i've only been there as a tourist. i've never lived there and i don't interact with many Japanese people. what i know i've only read about, and that is that sometimes Chinese people in Japan are stereotyped as criminals, and that Korean people in Japan are discriminated against. i have no first-hand experience as to what kinds of racist acts or opinions they may be subjected to.

but this topic shouldn't be specific to Japan alone. racism exists in other Asian countries, too. for my part, i have personal experience with HK, and i can attest that HK people can be very ignorant and racist toward people who are darker skinned - Africans, South Asians and Southeast Asians. and i feel that they're just as guilty as racists in the US.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I have spoken with a acquaintance living in Japan (who is mixed himself and well accepted there) who had this to say about Japanese racism on other Asian minorities:

"Japan's society works on the assimilation principle of joining a tightly-knit group. If you are East Asian and you want to be included into the Japanese society you have to actively participate in society and sincerely demonstrate comittment to live a Japanese life, and that you wish to give up your previous ethnic allegiance/identity and totally join the Japanese. I have known many mainland Chinese, Taiwan, and Koreans who intentionaly came to Japan, imigrate, voluntarily change their old identity and became 'Japanese people' themselves. They seemed happy to become Japanese. Ironically alot of those Japanese that seem exclusive of foreigners are actually with Chinese or Korean ancestry in their past. This voluntary switching identity has been going on for centuries, but has been overlooked by those people who use accuse 'racism', as if Japan's system is the same as american's white racism. But you see, it is not the same. Those Chinese and Koreans that remain 'minority' are excluded by Japanese society because they dont want to become 'Japanese' but intentionally keep their previous ethnic identity and previous culture for whatever reason. That's how it works here... so its not like American racism, but its more like an allegiance/identity thing."

Well, this certainly paints a much different picture from the horrors of being a Chinese in Japan.
"What then is the American, this new man? He is either an European, or the descendant of an European, hence that strange mixture of blood, which you will find in no other country. I could point out to you a family whose grandfather was an Englishman, whose wife was Dutch, whose son married a French woman, and whose present four sons have now four wives of different nations. He is an American,