Challenging the Model Minority Myth

[kasia]

from the Coalition for Asian American Children & Families based in New York:


Not all Asian Americans are as uniformly educated, acculturated, and financially successful as the myth of the "model minority" would suggest. Like other communities, Asian Americans need health and social services for their children's well being. Here are some facts to contradict the myths:


In the United States:

17% of Asian American boys in grades 5 through 12 reported physical abuse, as compared to 8% among white boys, in a survey by the Commonwealth Fund.
(The Health of Adolescent Boys: A Commonwealth Fund Survey. The Commonwealth Fund, 1998)


30% of Asian American girls in grades 5 through 12 reported depressive symptoms, as compared to white girls (22%), African American girls (17%), or Hispanic girls (27%), in a survey by the Commonwealth Fund.
(The Commonwealth Fund Survey of the Health of Adolescent Girls. The Commonwealth Fund, 1998)


Asian Americans are twice as likely to be poor as non-Hispanic whites.
(1990 Census)


The illiteracy rate of Asian Americans is 5.3 times that of non-Hispanic whites.
(1990 U.S. Census, Social and Economic Characteristics)


Asian American women ages 15-24 have a higher rate of suicide than Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics in that age group.
(Center for Disease Control and Prevention)


73.3% of Asian Americans speak a language other than English.
(An Invisible Crisis: The Educational Needs of Asian Pacific American Youth. Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy, 1997)


14% of Asian Americans live below the poverty line, compared to 13% of the U.S. population.
(An Invisible Crisis: The Educational Needs of Asian Pacific American Youth. Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy, 1997)




In New York City:

From 1980-2000, the Asian American Pacific Islander population increased at least 231%.
(US Census Bureau)


52% of Asian American births in 1999 were paid for by Medicaid, indicating that their mothers are poor or near poor, more than double that of 1990(22%).
(NYC Department of Health Summary of Vital Statistics, 1998)


24% of Asian Americans over age 25 do not have a high school degree.
(US Census Bureau)


33% of Asian Americans students in public high schools drop out or do not graduate on time.
(Class of 1999 Four Year Longitudinal Report and Event Drop Out Rates, NYC Board of Education)


96% of Asian American children are immigrants or children of immigrants.
(1996 Housing & Vacancy Survey)


46% of Asian American households do not have anyone over age 14 who can speak English well.
(US Census Bureau)


17.6% of Asian American households have incomes below the poverty line but only 7.2% receive public assistance.
(1996 Housing & Vacancy Survey)


The number of Asian American youths arrested for major felonies increased 38% between 1993 and 1996.
(NYPD, Office of Management Analysis and Planning)


Asian Americans live in the most overcrowded housing of any broadly defined ethnic or racial group; nearly one-fifth of all Asian households in the city are overcrowded.
(1996 Housing & Vacancy Survey)




Moments in America for Asian American Children
(From a publication of the Children's Defense Fund: Special Report: Sizing up the Odds. CDF Reports, March 1999, Volume 20, Number 3)

Every 13 hours, an Asian American baby dies.


Every 1 hour, an Asian American baby is born to a mother who had late or no prenatal care.


Every 5 hours, an Asian American baby is born at very low birth weight (less than 3 lb., 4oz.).


Every 45 minutes, an Asian American baby is born at low birth weight (less than 5 lb., 8 oz.).


Every 1 hour, an Asian American baby is born to a teen mother.


Every 21 minutes, an Asian American baby is born to a mother who is not a high school graduate.


Every 19 minutes, an Asian American baby is born to an unmarried mother.


Every 16 minutes, an Asian American child is arrested.


Every 7 hours, an Asian American child is arrested for a violent crime.


Every 6 hours, an Asian American child is arrested for drug abuse.


Every 2 hours, an Asian American public school student is corporally punished.


Every 1 minute, an Asian American public school student is suspended.


E-mail: cacf@cacf.org
© 1999 Coalition for Asian American Children & Families

[hooligan]

1999? Thanks for the stats, do you have more recent stats?

[stunninglyAsian]

I don't get it- OK, so we have a problem with being the model minority, but why should we have to break that stereotype by spouting off statistics that say that we are poor, stupid criminals that have kids as teenagers while doing drugs?

Is that really the best way to challenge this stereotype?

[hooligan]

I don't get it- OK, so we have a problem with being the model minority, but why should we have to break that stereotype by spouting off statistics that say that we are poor, stupid criminals that have kids as teenagers while doing drugs?

Is that really the best way to challenge this stereotype?

No, you're missing the point, these are statistics that point out that there are still issues within the APIA community. We need to either mobilize to address these issues or educate to bring these issues to light. Kasie's educating us about the issues and problems within our community.

It's not "we have a problem with being the model minority", rather it should be saying that we aren't the model minority.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'm the poster boy for APIA activists seeking to deconstruct the model minority stereotype. I'm 25 and still in undergrad, I have trouble carrying out the most basic of student-related tasks (e.g. registration for classes) without getting distracted, sidetracked, or losing motivation. During more than one semester I've failed two of my classes (out of 3) because I simply stopped going. You can't even associate my poor academic performance with socio-economic struggles or lack of resources since at least from a financial standpoint my life has been a bed of roses. I'm a lazy bastard. For the cause I say~

[applehead]

i don't think some of those percentages
are fair. a lot of the asian americans in nyc
are recent immigrants.
and recent immigrants are never well off.

[Trowa Sky]

I don't get it- OK, so we have a problem with being the model minority, but why should we have to break that stereotype by spouting off statistics that say that we are poor, stupid criminals that have kids as teenagers while doing drugs?

Is that really the best way to challenge this stereotype?

same thing i was thinking......

[applehead]

well. i think it's good to know for the asian american
community and also people outside
the asian am. community that asian americans
aren't always well off and well educated.
a lot of us are still struggling.

[hooligan]

i don't think some of those percentages
are fair. a lot of the asian americans in nyc
are recent immigrants.
and recent immigrants are never well off.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that's not fair, but it gives a good perspective on how new the APIA community is in NY. And even if they are immigrants they are APIAs.

[SunWuKong]

I'm the poster boy for APIA activists seeking to deconstruct the model minority stereotype.

no you have to be illiterate and live in poverty to deconstruct the model minority myth. :biggrin:

[hooligan]

same thing i was thinking......

How do you expect to serve a community without understanding some of the issues people face? Maybe this can be one of the campaigns that YW works on throughout this next year?

[SunWuKong]

looking at some of these stats without breaking them down by ethnicities really undermine the difficulties some ethnicities face. for example, Hmongs and Cambodians have much higher poverty rates than other ethnicities. the overall Asian poverty rate at 1999 is 12.6, but for Hmongs it's 37.8, and for Cambodians it's 29.3.

[applehead]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that's not fair, but it gives a good perspective on how new the APIA community is in NY. And even if they are immigrants they are APIAs.


well let me specify some of the percentages
that i had in mind when i wrote "not fair."

17% of Asian American boys in grades 5 through 12 reported physical abuse, as compared to 8% among white boys, in a survey by the Commonwealth Fund.
i can see how a lot of these boys might consider
their parents using physical disciplinary measures
as physical abuse.

30% of Asian American girls in grades 5 through 12 reported depressive symptoms, as compared to white girls (22%), African American girls (17%), or Hispanic girls (27%), in a survey by the Commonwealth Fund.
i can see how there's such a high number of
asian girls who exhibit depressive symptoms, especially
in an area where there's a high level of newly
immigrated citizens. that happens when you're
forced to move to a whole different country but
the above statement makes it seem like they suffer
from depression. i would only consider it an
adjustment period and therefore nothing to be alarmed about.


The illiteracy rate of Asian Americans is 5.3 times that of non-Hispanic whites.
(1990 U.S. Census, Social and Economic Characteristics)
i'm assuming that they mean illiterate in english.
i don't think i have to explain why that statement
is unfair.

52% of Asian American births in 1999 were paid for by Medicaid, indicating that their mothers are poor or near poor, more than double that of 1990(22%).
(NYC Department of Health Summary of Vital Statistics, 1998)
a lot of new immigrants have jobs under the books
and most of them don't report all of their income
in their taxes. this makes them eligible for medicaid,
food stamps etc. it doesn't mean that they're poor.

33% of Asian Americans students in public high schools drop out or do not graduate on time.
(Class of 1999 Four Year Longitudinal Report and Event Drop Out Rates, NYC Board of Education)
combining drop outs and students who do not
graduate on time is misleading.

some of the percentages are very very misleading
and makes the our situation look worse
than it really is.
although it is good to know the issues
our community should be dealing with, exaggerating them
aren't going to help either.

[kitty]

I don't get it- OK, so we have a problem with being the model minority, but why should we have to break that stereotype by spouting off statistics that say that we are poor, stupid criminals that have kids as teenagers while doing drugs?

Is that really the best way to challenge this stereotype?

no, that's the best way to address the problems we are actually facing in our community. if no one is aware of drug abuse or suicides in our community, no one will do anything to prevent them.

[SunWuKong]

not that i don't want to dispel the model minority myth. but i also have suspicions about the accuracy of some of these numbers.

Asian Americans are twice as likely to be poor as non-Hispanic whites.
(1990 Census)

i don't know what is defined by "poor" here, but i'm looking at the numbers for 2003 right now, and it says that the poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites was 8.2, while the poverty rate for people that are "Asian alone" was 11.8.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html

73.3% of Asian Americans speak a language other than English.
(An Invisible Crisis: The Educational Needs of Asian Pacific American Youth. Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders in Philanthropy, 1997)

how does this particularly go to dispel the model minority myth? most people on this site speak a language other than English. but they also speak English.

in 2000, 21.0% of Asian Americans speak English at home, 39.4% of Asian Americans speak some other language at home, but speak English "very well", and 39.5% of Asian Americans speak English less than "very well".

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf

In New York City:

24% of Asian Americans over age 25 do not have a high school degree.
(US Census Bureau)

33% of Asian Americans students in public high schools drop out or do not graduate on time.
(Class of 1999 Four Year Longitudinal Report and Event Drop Out Rates, NYC Board of Education)


a lot of Asian Americans in NYC are immigrants, so it shouldn't be surprising that many do not have high school degrees. not that we shouldn't discount them (the same way we shouldn't discount those that came to the country with college degrees), but many of them move out to the suburbs or move to other states when they have more money. it's almost like examining the crime rates of African Americans by only citing the crime in inner cities.

nation-wide, in 2003, of people that are 25 years or older, 89.4% of non-Hispanic whites were high school graduates, and 87.6 of "Asian only" were high school graduates. 30.0% of non-Hispanic whites had bachelor's degrees, and 49.8% of "Asian only" had bachelor's degrees. the real problem group here is Hispanics with only 57.0% high school graduates.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

[John0101]

I learned not to trust most statistics.

If I am going to look at statistics i'm going straight to the data set.

[applehead]

i know for a fact that last year,
percentages for asian hs drop outs in nyc
were in the low 10 percent.

and also, asians had the lowest drop out
rates, although the low 10 percent was
still a huge shock to our community.
we weren't aware that there were so many.

[nola]

I thought the definition of Asian American was being in the States for at least eight years or something.

[sOKaLiBoY]

i don't know if i even consider myself asian american. i usually just break up the 2. If someone asks me what ethnicity i'am, i say japanese and part korean. if they ask me what nationality i'am, i say american. i have no real connection to my ethnic background because i'm 4th generation. i speak only english. hell my parents only speak english. and i haven't heard my grandmothers speak any japanese in over 15 years probably.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I thought the definition of Asian American was being in the States for at least eight years or something.
Dunno that there's a formal definition. If I could bet, I'd put money down that they're not making any distinctions based on citizenship, legality, or intent to stay. Personally when I use the term "Asian American", I'm almost always referring to 1.5 gen or above.


Asian Americans live in the most overcrowded housing of any broadly defined ethnic or racial group; nearly one-fifth of all Asian households in the city are overcrowded.
My question is, what's the definition of "overcrowded"? I might trust it if it's a local measure, but if it's an arbitrary cutoff defined by the researchers, or worse yet, a federal government statistic, it's just about worthless. Americans have insanely high standards for personal space, and don't even want to start thinking about having kids until they have a detached single-family dwelling with a lawn in front and a yard in back. (Which is why corporations hate sending their married w/children American employees overseas; they demand housing whose rent costs more than their boss' salary).

[applehead]

I thought the definition of Asian American was being in the States for at least eight years or something.

i've never heard that. really?

well, if that's the case and the census
bureau defines asian americans as someone
who lived in the states for at least eight years
than i guess i can't refute the percentages.
but like alibaba i highly doubt that that's
the case here.


My question is, what's the definition of "overcrowded"? I might trust it if it's a local measure, but if it's an arbitrary cutoff defined by the researchers, or worse yet, a federal government statistic, it's just about worthless. Americans have insanely high standards for personal space, and don't even want to start thinking about having kids until they have a detached single-family dwelling with a lawn in front and a yard in back. (Which is why corporations hate sending their married w/children American employees overseas; they demand housing whose rent costs more than their boss' salary).

very good point.
i don't know if any lawyers can help me out here
but is it true that in nyc if your children are
over a certain age, siblings of different sex
can't share a bedroom?

a couple of months ago i heard my super talking
to this old man who lives in a one bedroom
apartment with his son, daughter-in-law
and his granddaughter, telling him that
the building management found out that
there was a little girl living with him and he needs
to move out because she needs her own
bedroom.

not only that but i've heard this a lot from
my parents while i was growing up, which
is one reason why my brother shared
a room with my parents when he was
younger and a room of his own later.

[hooligan]

Dunno that there's a formal definition. If I could bet, I'd put money down that they're not making any distinctions based on citizenship, legality, or intent to stay. Personally when I use the term "Asian American", I'm almost always referring to 1.5 gen or above.

My question is, what's the definition of "overcrowded"? I might trust it if it's a local measure, but if it's an arbitrary cutoff defined by the researchers, or worse yet, a federal government statistic, it's just about worthless. Americans have insanely high standards for personal space, and don't even want to start thinking about having kids until they have a detached single-family dwelling with a lawn in front and a yard in back. (Which is why corporations hate sending their married w/children American employees overseas; they demand housing whose rent costs more than their boss' salary).

That's a pretty superficial definiton, how about APIAs who were born in another country and immigrated around 30 or so?

I tend to think it's ironic when people learn about disparaging data the first thing that we tend to do is react and question what we see? Maybe this are true and I think a lot of APIAs don't realize that there's a large portion of our community that doesn't do as well as most of us on YW who sit around the internet and talk "white collar" talk.

[golden_buns]

I don't get it- OK, so we have a problem with being the model minority, but why should we have to break that stereotype by spouting off statistics that say that we are poor, stupid criminals that have kids as teenagers while doing drugs?

Is that really the best way to challenge this stereotype?

Probably not the best way, and probably it's a bit overinflated towards the poverty line. But I think it's good to show this cuz we're basically forgotten in major social benefits programs, plus we're getting these really absurd quotas into getting into college

[applehead]

That's a pretty superficial definiton, how about APIAs who were born in another country and immigrated around 30 or so?

I tend to think it's ironic when people learn about disparaging data the first thing that we tend to do is react and question what we see? Maybe this are true and I think a lot of APIAs don't realize that there's a large portion of our community that doesn't do as well as most of us on YW who sit around the internet and talk "white collar" talk.

no one's saying that we're oblivious
to the other portion of the APIA community
that aren't doing as well as most of us on yw.
and i don't know who you mean by most of us
since most of us are in our early 20s and just
starting out and not doing so well. so i don't
know what you're talking about.
that's just ludricrious.
just because we have access to the internet
and are able to engage in conversations/debates
regarding politics doesn't make us better
off than people who can't.

we're just saying that some of those percenatages
are misleading and is unnecessarily alarming.
we're not saying those issues don't exist.
of course they do. they exist in all
cultures, all countries in all communities.
do you want us to be misinformed?

[Commando_turned_MD]

I'm fulfilling the Asian Minority Myth.

[SunWuKong]

I tend to think it's ironic when people learn about disparaging data the first thing that we tend to do is react and question what we see? Maybe this are true and I think a lot of APIAs don't realize that there's a large portion of our community that doesn't do as well as most of us on YW who sit around the internet and talk "white collar" talk.

disparaging data? give me a break. those numbers are straight mis-representation of what the census says. if they want to talk about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the census, that's fine. but that wasn't what they were doing.

i mean, shit, on the other hand, i find it ironic when people learn about positive data the first thing they do is react and question the accuracy of those numbers. i think a lot of APIAs are so eager to beat the model minority myth or measure higher on the discrimination and suffering scale that they don't realise a large portion of our community is in fact doing pretty well.

seriously, when have positive data about APIAs ever been posted here without people questioning it as soon as they see it? yet why is it a problem when people question negative data, especially when some of us have actually shown, instead of just speculate, how inaccurate the specific data on this thread is?

[hooligan]

disparaging data? give me a break. those numbers are straight mis-representation of what the census says. if they want to talk about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the census, that's fine. but that wasn't what they were doing.

i mean, shit, on the other hand, i find it ironic when people learn about positive data the first thing they do is react and question the accuracy of those numbers. i think a lot of APIAs are so eager to beat the model minority myth or measure higher on the discrimination and suffering scale that they don't realise a large portion of our community is in fact doing pretty well.

seriously, when have positive data about APIAs ever been posted here without people questioning it as soon as they see it? yet why is it a problem when people question negative data, especially when some of us have actually shown, instead of just speculate, how inaccurate the specific data on this thread is?

Well, the census has never truly depicted the APIA communities in the US with accuracy, but whatever you choose to believe. Whenever there is positive data it honestly is backing the model minority myth, what a lot of APIA activists want is an ACCURATE depiction, not another white washing of data. Please, I'm questioning the validity of the census and saying that this data might actually reflect our community much better.

[SunWuKong]

Well, the census has never truly depicted the APIA communities in the US with accuracy, but whatever you choose to believe. Whenever there is positive data it honestly is backing the model minority myth, what a lot of APIA activists want is an ACCURATE depiction, not another white washing of data. Please, I'm questioning the validity of the census and saying that this data might actually reflect our community much better.

that's fine. i myself have doubts about the accuracy of the census. but the numbers cited above are representations of what the census says, and they're inaccurate. i can show that they're inaccurate by going directly to the census itself.

so the real irony here is why you didn't question the validity of the data shown above. i mean, they used the census as a source. is it because when data shows that APIAs are doing badly, they should be believed without question, because it goes against the model minority myth?

i want to fight the model minority myth, too. but you're not going to get any credibility by blindly accepting whatever data suits your purpose.

[hooligan]

that's fine. i myself have doubts about the accuracy of the census. but the numbers cited above are representations of what the census says, and they're inaccurate. i can show that they're inaccurate by going directly to the census itself.

so the real irony here is why you didn't question the validity of the data shown above. i mean, they used the census as a source. is it because when data shows that APIAs are doing badly, they should be believed without question, because it goes against the model minority myth?

i want to fight the model minority myth, too. but you're not going to get any credibility by blindly accepting whatever data suits your purpose.

Um, the only thing that you outrightly challenged was the poverty rate and during the 1990-2000 period it possibly could have been true. I didn't research it, but the thing you pointed out was "poverty rates", but the data pointed out that AAs were twice as likely to be "poor". Poverty rates don't seem to accurately describe living poor as the article points out.

The other points of your analysis falls short of actually refuting anything that the article says. Also data alone you see that the data points that there are issues with education in New York, not the country. Like I said again, those census rates fall horribly short of describing or even beginning to capture the Amerasian Nation.

Also, it's more than likely those APIAs who actually own homes usually get counted more often than immigrant or poor APIAs who live in apartments and such.

[stunninglyAsian]

How do you expect to serve a community without understanding some of the issues people face? Maybe this can be one of the campaigns that YW works on throughout this next year?

Well I understand we have problems like everybody else... I guess it was the title of the thread that threw me off a bit. Trust me I know that for every hot shot doctor, engineer, lawyer, there are several non-professionals and some have serious issues they have to deal with. But I don't treat/view these Asians differently than their white or black counterparts. I think it would be terribly unfair for us to say, "Help out our fellow APIA homeless!" unless they are being treated differently from other people in their same economic category.

[hooligan]

Well I understand we have problems like everybody else... I guess it was the title of the thread that threw me off a bit. Trust me I know that for every hot shot doctor, engineer, lawyer, there are several non-professionals and some have serious issues they have to deal with. But I don't treat/view these Asians differently than their white or black counterparts. I think it would be terribly unfair for us to say, "Help out our fellow APIA homeless!" unless they are being treated differently from other people in their same economic category.

No, actually, I think there's been a lack of APIAs who go back to the community to help out.

[SunWuKong]

Um, the only thing that you outrightly challenged was the poverty rate and during the 1990-2000 period it possibly could have been true. I didn't research it, but the thing you pointed out was "poverty rates", but the data pointed out that AAs were twice as likely to be "poor". Poverty rates don't seem to accurately describe living poor as the article points out.

didn't i say i don't know what was defined as "poor" above?

and mind explaining to me, perhaps backed up with some numbers, as to why poverty rates don't seem to accurately describe "living poor"? or is that just your own personal opinion? and mind you, the claim that Asian people were twice as likely to be "poor" than non-Hispanic whites in 1990 also supposedly came from the census. would you like to question the accuracy of that or does that number look too good for you to question?

The other points of your analysis falls short of actually refuting anything that the article says. Also data alone you see that the data points that there are issues with education in New York, not the country. Like I said again, those census rates fall horribly short of describing or even beginning to capture the Amerasian Nation.

look at what was written in the beginning, before those numbers were mentioned:
Not all Asian Americans are as uniformly educated, acculturated, and financially successful as the myth of the "model minority" would suggest. Like other communities, Asian Americans need health and social services for their children's well being. Here are some facts to contradict the myths:

in particular i brought up the language issue, which was nation-wide, and the education issue, which was specific to NYC.

1) how does the fact that "73.3% of Asian Americans speak a language other than English" dispel the model minority myth??? being bilingual doesn't dispel the model minority myth. why didn't it also make mention of how many percent also speak English?

2) as for the education issue - how would you react if i wrote an article and started with "Crime Rates of African Americans" and only cite the numbers in NYC?

and like meena said, it's extremely inaccurate to lump those that didn't graduate to those that graduated late. hey, you know what, here's data for what percentage of Asian people in NYC don't have highschool diplomas in 1999:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ssw/projects/surcent/nyc_factsheet/table2b.pdf

or here, here's the exact study that the article used to cite the "33% of Asian Americans" that don't graduate or graduate on time:

http://www.nycenet.edu/daa/reports/Class_of_1999.pdf

69.3% of Asian American students graduate in 4 years. 73.3% of white students graduate in 4 years. that's a difference of 4%. furthermore, 80% of both Asian American and white students graduate within 7 years.

you know, i could spend more time and check the accuracy of the other numbers if you want.

Also, it's more than likely those APIAs who actually own homes usually get counted more often than immigrant or poor APIAs who live in apartments and such.

hey, i agree. i've already said that i also have doubts about the accuracy of the census. what i'm wondering here is if you think the census is so inaccurate, how come you didn't question the accuracy of the numbers that used the census as a source to point out how badly APIAs are actually doing? instead you felt that it was "ironic" that others point out the clear inaccuracy in misrepresenting data from the census just because those numbers actually fit the agenda of fighting the model minority myth.


seriously, out of all the social sciences classes you take, maybe it's time you take some research methods class also to learn to question data in an unbiased manner.

[hooligan]

didn't i say i don't know what was defined as "poor" above?

and mind explaining to me, perhaps backed up with some numbers, as to why poverty rates don't seem to accurately describe "living poor"? or is that just your own personal opinion? and mind you, the claim that Asian people were twice as likely to be "poor" than non-Hispanic whites in 1990 also supposedly came from the census. would you like to question the accuracy of that or does that number look too good for you to question?



look at what was written in the beginning, before those numbers were mentioned:


in particular i brought up the language issue, which was nation-wide, and the education issue, which was specific to NYC.

1) how does the fact that "73.3% of Asian Americans speak a language other than English" dispel the model minority myth??? being bilingual doesn't dispel the model minority myth. why didn't it also make mention of how many percent also speak English?

2) as for the education issue - how would you react if i wrote an article and started with "Crime Rates of African Americans" and only cite the numbers in NYC?

and like meena said, it's extremely inaccurate to lump those that didn't graduate to those that graduated late. hey, you know what, here's data for what percentage of Asian people in NYC don't have highschool diplomas in 1999:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ssw/projects/surcent/nyc_factsheet/table2b.pdf

you know, i could spend more time and check the accuracy of the other numbers if you want.



hey, i agree. i've already said that i also have doubts about the accuracy of the census. what i'm wondering here is if you think the census is so inaccurate, how come you didn't question the accuracy of the numbers that used the census as a source to point out how badly APIAs are actually doing? instead you felt that it was "ironic" that others point out the clear inaccuracy in misrepresenting data from the census just because those numbers actually fit the agenda of fighting the model minority myth.


seriously, out of all the social sciences classes you take, maybe it's time you take some research methods class also to learn to question data in an unbiased manner.


lol, john already pointed out what i'd say to what you're bringing up. besides most of the social science classes say "TIALOD"

[SunWuKong]

lol, john already pointed out what i'd say to what you're bringing up. besides most of the social science classes say "TIALOD"

who's john? what's TIALOD?

read my post again, i added something:
or here, here's the exact study that the article used to cite the "33% of Asian Americans" that don't graduate or graduate on time:

http://www.nycenet.edu/daa/reports/Class_of_1999.pdf

69.3% of Asian American students graduate in 4 years. 73.3% of white students graduate in 4 years. that's a difference of 4%. furthermore, 80% of both Asian American and white students graduate within 7 years.

EDIT: oh this john?
I learned not to trust most statistics.

funny you didn't say this before contradicting data was brought up against the numbers that help your own agenda. hey, you shouldn't trust statistics that prove that Asian Americans don't fit the model minority myth! let's all just speculate everything in society! wheee!!!

[hooligan]

i guess aggregated data means nothing to you, but hey, who am i to judge someone who wants to point out that as a whole we seem to be doing better than other APIAs. oh wait, those people are usually people who want to justify that APIAs are doing just fine.

the census uses the poverty line as a marker, the article says living poor. for someone who's a moderator on an APIA forum you sure like to suppress anyone who brings up a progressive point of view. i'd like to sit here and address the type of data that research institutions and what more progressive non-profits produce, but hey, you'd probably say something about the census and move on.

um, that education statistic proves the article that kasie posted? what's your point? that we're similar to white people? yay because we're the model minority? how about FACT that the data is aggregated. please, let's support your own cozy view of the world. YAY.

I'm not disagreeing with you that there's a problem with the data, the point I'm trying to make is that there is a problem with how the data is collected, dissected and made to say what you think it wants to say. Especially with how the census uses the data it collects. It's not clear on what groups are affected the most and they don't break down the data at all.

The point of my argument is that there's problems within the APIA community and the data on the article is highlighting issues within our community. Whether you choose to believe the validity or the article doesn't change the fact that there are still people in our community that need assistance to address the issues in their lives.

We can sit here until we're blue in the face and argue about the statistics, but it really doesn't change the fact that there are issues in the community.

[SunWuKong]

i guess aggregated data means nothing to you, but hey, who am i to judge someone who wants to point out that as a whole we seem to be doing better than other APIAs. oh wait, those people are usually people who want to justify that APIAs are doing just fine.

aggregate data? all you saw was numbers that the article claimed or misrepresented. you don't know if they're aggregated or not. yet you just trusted them on face value alone because it was made to look like it dispels the model minority myth.

the census uses the poverty line as a marker, the article says living poor. for someone who's a moderator on an APIA forum you sure like to suppress anyone who brings up a progressive point of view. i'd like to sit here and address the type of data that research institutions and what more progressive non-profits produce, but hey, you'd probably say something about the census and move on.

don't give me that "progressive" BS. close-minded liberals are as regressive as close-minded conservatives are. the issue i brought up was, why do you take for granted data that supports your belief and think it "ironic" when people should question it, yet you would easily question data that do not support your belief.

um, that education statistic proves the article that kasie posted? what's your point? that we're similar to white people? yay because we're the model minority? how about FACT that the data is aggregated. please, let's support your own cozy view of the world. YAY.

hey my point was just to point out how it was misrepresented or how it was inaccurate. does that make you uneasy? why didn't you question its accuracy like i did if you don't trust statistics?

i mean seriously, i want to dispel the model minority, too. but how about some data and representation that can't be disproved by a guy that knows how to use google and browse www.census.gov?

[hooligan]

aggregate data? all you saw was numbers that the article claimed or misrepresented. you don't know if they're aggregated or not. yet you just trusted them on face value alone because it was made to look like it dispels the model minority myth.

don't give me that "progressive" BS. close-minded liberals are as regressive as close-minded conservatives are. the issue i brought up was, why do you take for granted data that supports your belief and think it "ironic" when people should question it, yet you would easily question data that do not support your belief.

hey my point was just to point out how it was misrepresented or how it was inaccurate. does that make you uneasy? why didn't you question its accuracy like i did if you don't trust statistics?

LOL. I never really said I accepted the numbers. I pointed out that there are issues within the community and if anything, these numbers probably highlighted some of them. You can find any number of things wrong with a research study and even more so when the data is interpreted and it doesn't make me uneasy because I know that there are numbers from the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s and illustrated how APIAs were "making it" when in truth there was a whole group of communities that were "overshadowed" and "forgotten".

I can dig up numbers that will contradict yours, then where would we be?

[SunWuKong]

LOL. I never really said I accepted the numbers. I pointed out that there are issues within the community and if anything, these numbers probably highlighted some of them. You can find any number of things wrong with a research study and even more so when the data is interpreted and it doesn't make me uneasy because I know that there are numbers from the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s and illustrated how APIAs were "making it" when in truth there was a whole group of communities that were "overshadowed" and "forgotten".

I can dig up numbers that will contradict yours, then where would we be?

ok, but your first reaction was "thanks for the data". then when people question them, you find it ironic. the fact that you said that, in and of itself i find ironic.

and here, about those data that you think is aggregate, specifically for the report from the NYC Department of Education, it doesn't look like it's so aggregate after all. this is from the methodology section of what i linked earlier:
As with the four-year outcomes of the Class of 2002 (see The Class of 2002 Four-Year Longitudinal Report and 2001- 2002 Event Dropout Rates being issued at the same time), students can be identified as graduates, dropouts, still enrolled in the school system, or discharged from the New York City public school system with confirmed admission to other school systems or educational settings. Student outcomes were determined from data maintained in central data files that contain records of admission and discharge activity for each student in the New York City public school system. At the end of the three-year follow-up period, final dropout and graduation rates were computed for the class.

http://www.nycenet.edu/daa/reports/Class_of_1999.pdf

and the data shows that the fact that 30% of Asian American students don't graduate on time actually goes to support the model minority myth. so when people should question that number as something that dispels the model minority myth, you think it's "ironic"? there's nothing ironic about questioning those numbers because they're misrepresented.

[hooligan]

ok, but your first reaction was "thanks for the data". then when people question them, you find it ironic. the fact that you said that, in and of itself i find ironic.

and here, about those data that you think is aggregate, specifically for the report from the NYC Department of Education, it doesn't look like it's so aggregate after all. this is from the methodology section of what i linked earlier:


http://www.nycenet.edu/daa/reports/Class_of_1999.pdf

and the data shows that the fact that 30% of Asian American students don't graduate on time actually goes to support the model minority myth. so when people should question that number as something that dispels the model minority myth, you think it's "ironic"? there's nothing ironic about questioning those numbers because they're misrepresented.

Um, LOL, you think being like white people is supporting the model minority myth? I just wanted to add that you thread crap in almost every thread that seems to discuss some progressive slant, or almost most threads I've discussed progressive thought.

You think that black people seem to victimize themselves with particular definitions of "racism" and you think that APIAs aren't people of color. What am I suppose to assume?

When I talk about data being in aggregate, it means that they lump APIAs all together and although the data presented in the first post does bring up issues, I'm sure there's plenty of data to back up the contrary.

Census.gov doesn't scare me, through my experience it doesn't really do justice for the APIA community.

[kimpossible]

Um, LOL, you think being like white people is supporting the model minority myth? I just wanted to add that you thread crap in almost every thread that seems to discuss some progressive slant, or almost most threads I've discussed progressive thought.

You think that black people seem to victimize themselves with particular definitions of "racism" and you think that APIAs aren't people of color. What am I suppose to assume?



I missed that. Granted, I don't follow it too much when you and rad lock horns, but I thought he was going after the data because it didn't take economic info into consideration as much as it did race. I say that because I know that's he's a big proponent of affirmative action based on race and financial need.

Then again, maybe I should just shut the fuck up because I wasn't paying attention in the first place. ahahaha.

[applehead]

so you do agree that those numbers
are misleading yet find it ironic that
we find those numbers misleading.
well, goodness. now i just find myself
being confused, yet again, with your
stance on the issue.

[SunWuKong]

Um, LOL, you think being like white people is supporting the model minority myth?

i have never said this, but if you ever bothered to check out the link i posted, you'll see that the 69.3% of Asian Americans graduating in 4 years do support the model minority myth because 47.1% of black students and 42.1% of Latino students graduate in 4 years. the model minority myth claims that Asian Americans have done well despite being minorities, unlike other minorities. so these numbers actually support that claim.

I just wanted to add that you thread crap in almost every thread that seems to discuss some progressive slant, or almost most threads I've discussed progressive thought.

you know, liberals don't have a monopoly on the word "progressive", and this attitude of yours exemplifies why some people feel liberals stand themselves on some higher moral grounds apart from everybody else.

i "crapped" on an article that clearly misrepresented data about Asian Americans and you think i'm crapping on "progressive slant"? give me a break. why is it such a boo boo to point out data that's been misrepresented or are plain inaccurate? what, just because i'm Asian, i should just overlook anything that's plain wrong because it fights the model minority myth?

You think that black people seem to victimize themselves with particular definitions of "racism"

where the hell are you getting this? i said some black academics (not to be mistaken for black people), claim a monopoly on the word "racism". and i've never said they somehow victimise themselves by doing so.

and you think that APIAs aren't people of color.

what the hell? i've never said this!

What am I suppose to assume?

assume whatever the hell you want. it seems you've been unjustly doing that quite a bit already.

When I talk about data being in aggregate, it means that they lump APIAs all together and although the data presented in the first post does bring up issues, I'm sure there's plenty of data to back up the contrary.

Census.gov doesn't scare me, through my experience it doesn't really do justice for the APIA community.

once again - my point here is while all you said was "thanks for the info" when the data was first presented, you somehow find irony in the fact that some people pointed out the misrepresentation and the inaccuracy in the data. why? i have my own doubts about the accuracy of the census, but the point is not the census itself. some of the numbers above are misrepresentation of what the census says, but the article wasn't even talking about the accuracy of the census, in fact it accepted the census as a source of its data.

quite frankly, i'm a little disturbed by your attitude.

[nola]

i've never heard that. really?

well, if that's the case and the census
bureau defines asian americans as someone
who lived in the states for at least eight years
than i guess i can't refute the percentages.
but like alibaba i highly doubt that that's
the case here.Me too. I'm sure the census bureau neglected the definition of Asian American hence came up with these alarming statistics. Working with the middle ground between the Myth and these alarming statistics would be best for the cause.