Taiwan 'Independence Day'

[kimpossible]

++

It was 10/10, wasn't it?

[deez nuts]

Yeah "double 10" day.

[ChinaLama]

no one mentioned 10/1, the REAL independence day, when China was liberated from the corrupt KMT, but instead you guys wanna mention 10/10, the "independence" day of a joke revolution that started a joke of a country called the "Republic" of China?

Sorry, just a mini-anti KMT rant. :) Very very mini. :)

[wylin]

hard choice crazy communit dictators that murder and have u eat ur own people or Green Gang chinese mafia/ military leadership nationalists.

[ChinaLama]

the KMT has done ITS share of murdering...both on the mainland and on Taiwan. I don't recall the specific date, but there's some famous date in February, I think, that's commenorated as a day in taiwan when the KMT like just mass-disappeared people.

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 14 2002, 04:07 PM
the KMT has done ITS share of murdering...both on the mainland and on Taiwan. I don't recall the specific date, but there's some famous date in February, I think, that's commenorated as a day in taiwan when the KMT like just mass-disappeared people.
thats ok i rather be dead and sorta free then be a stupid and uneducated peasant working after the cultural revolution.

[ChinaLama]

what kind of freedom is it when the government makes you disappear? you think you disappear into some happy land?

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 14 2002, 04:38 PM
what kind of freedom is it when the government makes you disappear? you think you disappear into some happy land?
yes called the magical green island. well would u rather eat ur child yum, sum filet baby....Baby its whats for dinner!

[ChinaLama]

hey, there is nothing wrong with eating babies or placenta.

you think Taiwanese ppl dun eat babies? remember where most Taiwanese people are from...

uhh yeah, China a few hundred years ago.


proly the only reason Taiwanese ppl dun like to eat their kids is because the Japanese brainwashed them into producing children as sex objects for the mighty Nihonese.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 14 2002, 07:07 PM
the KMT has done ITS share of murdering...both on the mainland and on Taiwan. I don't recall the specific date, but there's some famous date in February, I think, that's commenorated as a day in taiwan when the KMT like just mass-disappeared people.
yes, the KMT was involved in the massacre of native Taiwanese people in 1947. supposedly "tens of thousands" of people were killed.

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 14 2002, 05:53 PM
hey, there is nothing wrong with eating babies or placenta.

you think Taiwanese ppl dun eat babies? remember where most Taiwanese people are from...

uhh yeah, China a few hundred years ago.


proly the only reason Taiwanese ppl dun like to eat their kids is because the Japanese brainwashed them into producing children as sex objects for the mighty Nihonese.
thats ok all i have to say is look at taiwan and where it has grown under limited democracy into the worlds powerhouse tech sector and semiconductor manufactuer. All motherboard are made in taiwan, ur videocard if its from Nvidia is made in taiwan, Most ram is made in taiwan or korea, a large portion of the population is middle or upper class. Taiwan has a modern Information infrastructure. Its people are free to vote and do buisness and they weild imessurable power of the chinese economy being the largest investor.

what does red china have, communist oppression and neptism, organized crime and human trade spring up, huge ammount of prostitution and rampant spread of AIDs and othe STD. Majority of population is illeducated and stupid from years of brainwashing by communism, china makes only lowtech items mostly like shoes, textiles, cheap toys, and is exploited by their taiwanese brothers. Lets see what can i goto china for a quicky tour and historical leason and a quick lay of couple dozen china girls who love me since i got so much money and give it up for free hoping for me to impregnate them =P

[kimpossible]

But I want to hear more about what ChinaLama is saying. I know technically why the anti-commie hate is there, and I know the basics in Taiwan history, but I don't understand fully why I hear Taiwanese say such broad anti-mainlander sentiments.

For instance, hearing that the mainland is full of 'whores and losers'? (Yeah, wtf?) And one of my best friends flipping out while we were in Japan 'cuz we ran into some mainlanders. She kept saying, "I don't trust them. Look at them. They're so suspicious." And this friend is half native Taiwanese - shan ren.

[deez nuts]

Oh boy, we just had to start this one up, huh? :ph34r:

[wylin]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 15 2002, 09:05 AM
But I want to hear more about what ChinaLama is saying. I know technically why the anti-commie hate is there, and I know the basics in Taiwan history, but I don't understand fully why I hear Taiwanese say such broad anti-mainlander sentiments.

For instance, hearing that the mainland is full of 'whores and losers'? (Yeah, wtf?) And one of my best friends flipping out while we were in Japan 'cuz we ran into some mainlanders. She kept saying, "I don't trust them. Look at them. They're so suspicious." And this friend is half native Taiwanese - shan ren.
note these are generalizations but this is pretty much wat taiwanese ppl ur talkin bout see and what i gather from sum personal experiences and from taiwanese sumpremist friends. this applies to recent china immigrants only. like red china commist rule.

China girls
- pretty open sexually, sex is just a tool for them to get what they want
- Pretty easy to have sex w/ if u got right car and $$$
- Dumb about relationships, they thing their job is to find a rich man
- money oriented they just wanna strike it big in USA
- poorly educated (guan dong ren excluded) ones from peasantry and not from shanghai or cantonese area's see very poorly educated
- try to be trendy but really go no style.
- dishonest ppl talk alot bout stories like :"my fiend was banging one while she stayed and banged her bf and lived w/ him only later did we discover this. she ended up w/ that same bf but had lotsa sex w/ my friend."

China men
- stalkerish and childish
- untrust worthy honor and duty mean nothing just getting what they want, they are the apittamy of selfish and individualistic western society/ TV.
- unable to realize its not a monteray game
- will lie, cheat, sabotage, make drama to get what they want
- poorly educated and just wanting to strike it rich.
- Old Fashion male possesive and sum hit their GF's
- jealous and crazed if riled up
- will not allow their gf to have any friends wants seclusion.
- poor typically blue collor or lowtech jobs or students if in US
- in china their incompetent and petty will kill u for 4-5000 us dollars because its fortune in china.
- small minded and cannot see nething past self gratification.

this is wat hello happa is talkin bout to clear it up.



<!--EDIT|wylin|Oct 15 2002, 09:48 AM-->

[deez nuts]

Daaaaaaym Wylin. Daaaaaaym boy.


**ducks and runs for cover**

[wylin]

those are common undercurrents and comments i see and hear from like my dad, taiwanese friends, etc.

i personally think china ppl are ok cept for like one or 2 specific pyscho china men who are pretty much what that stereotype for men. I mean their just uneducated because of the repression but simple ppl are easy goin and not that hard to deal w/. those are my own personal thoughts on china ppl. Plus their fun to expliot! =X

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by wylin@Oct 15 2002, 09:42 AM
this is wat hello happa is talkin bout to clear it up.
Hey now, don't pin this on me. I'm *asking* about something I come in contact with to get a better understanding about how to not let this get into the next generation of Chens.

I'll make sure my man has his fresh man tou for breakfast but I have zero interest in taking on his prejudices.

edit: should we cool this until MK gets a chance to move this to Rant?



<!--EDIT|Hello_Hapa|Oct 15 2002, 10:25 AM-->

[wylin]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 15 2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by wylin@Oct 15 2002, 09:42 AM
this is wat hello happa is talkin bout to clear it up.
Hey now, don't pin this on me. I'm *asking* about something I come in contact with to get a better understanding about how to not let this get into the next generation of Chens.

I'll make sure my man has his fresh man tou for breakfast but I have zero interest in taking on his prejudices.
what i ment this is the type of stereotyping u were alluding too. might as well open up the bag of worms and inform the community about them. u or i may not personally believe in them but might as well show everyone what stereotypes ppl have of china ppl... full disclosure.

yep so thats they type of stereotypes u commonly see from taiwanese people from my parents generation, my piers, and taiwanese friends. toward china people. in the virtue of full disclosure i listed them, the most common ones i hear from friends or family.



<!--EDIT|wylin|Oct 15 2002, 10:25 AM-->

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by wylin@Oct 15 2002, 10:24 AM
what i ment this is the type of stereotyping u were alluding too. might as well open up the bag of worms and inform the community about them. u or i may not personally believe in them but might as well show everyone what stereotypes ppl have of china ppl... full disclosure.


Sorry, will :D I read more into it.

[ChinaLama]

Hey, I didn't want to make this into an anti-Taiwan rant like wylin made this into an anti-China rant, but I don't mind seeing as to how the Taiwanese men are a bunch of pansy ass colonizer cocksuckers. Yup that's all they've been doing-- first they sucked off some Dutch cock in the 1600's, then they sucked off some Japanese cock in the first half of the 20th century, and they're STILL sucking American Republican cock now cuz if they WEREN't, we mainlanders would be owning their asses. Some further proof that the Taiwanese like to take orders from Americans is how they're such big BASEBALL fans up there (yeah, when I was learning Chinese from the brainwashed Taiwanese or mainlanders who moved over to Taiwan, the sport we were reading about in our primer was BASEBALL). And baseball is quite a proper sport for Taiwan since they're so used to taking orders from overseas masters. It wasn't till a few years ago that they FINALLY stopped taking orders from the KMT, which did as it pleased when it pleased. That's why to this day you have uber-Taiwan patriots who don't know about the history of oppression of the KMT ON TAIWAN cuz they are so glad a bunch of Mainlanders w/ skillz came to Sinicize their Nihonized culture.

Oh yeah, Korea was taken over by Japan too but somehow you don't find old Koreans who can ONLy speak Japanese they way some Taiwanese operate. Why? Cuz Koreans have DIGNITY and Taiwanese DON'T.


Now that they finally have some natives in place who aren't 100% slaves to overseas overlords, they think they're big and bad. rah rah Taiwan. Well, ok, I'm happy for the Taiwanese until America withdraws its protection cuz it's focused on Iraq. Then watch how millions of Chinese and our championship Olympic swimmers will come over in our sturdy boats and show you how to REALLY use baseball bats. and we ain't talkin about batting balls, we're talking about BUSTING balls.




BTW no hard feelings, I'm not really being serious or anything, but can't just sit here and let my homeland people be called small dicked or slutty without at least ONE word back.

[wylin]

tis ok, me and my old roomies discussed this b4... cuz we were made up of 2 taiwanese, 1 indochinese, 1 cantonese HK guy, 1 mainland china guy, 1 korean dude. i mean really it depends on the person but these are the types of comments i remember hearing alot from my taiwanese racer friends and my dad/ uncles. aunts/ etc.

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 10:29 AM
Hey, I didn't want to make this into an anti-Taiwan rant like wylin made this into an anti-China rant, but I don't mind seeing as to how the Taiwanese men are a bunch of pansy ass colonizer cocksuckers. Yup that's all they've been doing-- first they sucked off some Dutch cock in the 1600's, then they sucked off some Japanese cock in the first half of the 20th century, and they're STILL sucking American Republican cock now cuz if they WEREN't, we mainlanders would be owning their asses. Some further proof that the Taiwanese like to take orders from Americans is how they're such big BASEBALL fans up there (yeah, when I was learning Chinese from the brainwashed Taiwanese or mainlanders who moved over to Taiwan, the sport we were reading about in our primer was BASEBALL). And baseball is quite a proper sport for Taiwan since they're so used to taking orders from overseas masters. It wasn't till a few years ago that they FINALLY stopped taking orders from the KMT, which did as it pleased when it pleased. That's why to this day you have uber-Taiwan patriots who don't know about the history of oppression of the KMT ON TAIWAN cuz they are so glad a bunch of Mainlanders w/ skillz came to Sinicize their Nihonized culture.

Oh yeah, Korea was taken over by Japan too but somehow you don't find old Koreans who can ONLy speak Japanese they way some Taiwanese operate. Why? Cuz Koreans have DIGNITY and Taiwanese DON'T.


Now that they finally have some natives in place who aren't 100% slaves to overseas overlords, they think they're big and bad. rah rah Taiwan. Well, ok, I'm happy for the Taiwanese until America withdraws its protection cuz it's focused on Iraq. Then watch how millions of Chinese and our championship Olympic swimmers will come over in our sturdy boats and show you how to REALLY use baseball bats. and we ain't talkin about batting balls, we're talking about BUSTING balls.




BTW no hard feelings, I'm not really being serious or anything, but can't just sit here and let my homeland people be called small dicked or slutty without at least ONE word back.
talkin bout china arent their alota stereotypes of shanghainese people. and interarea rivalries.

nehows talkin bout invading taiwan no shit w/ that many people u can just drop them (throw ppl outa planes) on taiwan and kill everyone and totally decimate the population of the island.

talkin bout freedom CL hmm wat happens when u protest in china, sum guyz roll up and bust a command and conquer smush and fire AK-47s into the crowd full auto. What happens if ur a distent group like the falun gong or tibetian nationlists u get taken out bak and shot w/ an ak47 and ur family is billed for the shells, etc. there is no freedom their just communism and economic (mostly taiwanese company) expliotation.







<!--EDIT|wylin|Oct 15 2002, 10:37 AM-->

[ChinaLama]

oh well, we don't really have as detailed prejudices against Taiwanese ppl. It's kind of hard to make fun of Taiwanese ppl, since they're usually the less FOB among Chinese immigrants.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by wylin@Oct 15 2002, 01:32 PM

talkin bout china arent their alota stereotypes of shanghainese people.
yes, the men make great house husbands cuz they cook and clean.

[SunWuKong]

ok let's try to keep this civilised. there will be no more cocksucking.

moving...

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 15 2002, 01:21 PM
I come in contact with to get a better understanding about how to not let this get into the next generation of Chens.


Welcome to the family! :D

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 10:34 AM
oh well, we don't really have as detailed prejudices against Taiwanese ppl. It's kind of hard to make fun of Taiwanese ppl, since they're usually the less FOB among Chinese immigrants.
exactly we dress nice and speak ok english and have rowland heights CA =P

[ChinaLama]

what is wrong w/ cocksucking? sniffle...


ok, fine, no more cocksucking.

I think mainlanders are pissed off at Shanghainese people because we come from by FAR the greatest city on the Mainland, we're located smack center of Asia, and we THRIVED under foreign domination. In our words, SOUR GRAPES! BAH! Especially those Beijingnese with their slurred Chinese who think they're God's gift to China. Sorry, but if you can't speak the language without sounding like you've had too much moutai, then I don't wanna follow your culture. SOME people who would like to insinuate against the Shanghainese say that Shanghai is like New York "but without the culture" (and that's a DIRECT quote), but I think the reason why Shanghai "doesn't have the culture" is because the Northern hegemons exploited Southern China, including Shanghai, so that they could build all those "cultural monuments" up north. I mean, seriously, how useful was the Great Wall? How many Imperial palaces does a guy need? And even though they made their palace complex up in Beijing a "Forbidden City," the foreigners STILL got to burn down the empress's summer palace.



<!--EDIT|ChinaLama|Oct 15 2002, 06:43 PM-->

[wylin]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 10:41 AM
what is wrong w/ cocksucking? sniffle...


ok, fine, no more cocksucking.

I think mainlanders are pissed off at Shanghainese people because we come from by FAR the greatest city on the Mainland, we're located smack center of Asia, and we THRIVED under foreign domination. In our words, SOUR GRAPES! BAH! Especially those Beijingnese with their slurred Chinese who think they're God's gift to China. Sorry, but if you can't speak the language without sounding like you've had too much moutai, then I don't wanna follow your culture. SOME people who would like to insinuate against the Shanghainese say that Shanghai is like New York "but without the culture" (and that's a DIRECT quote), but I think the reason why Shanghai "doesn't have the culture" is because the Northern hegemons exploited Southern China, including Shanghai, so that they could build all those "cultural monuments" up north. I mean, seriously, how useful was the Great Wall? How many Imperial palaces does a guy need? And even though they made their palace complex up in Beijing a "Forbidden City," the foreigners STILL got to burn down the empress's summer palace.
exactly thats why china people are jealous of taiwan. because taiwanese have money and they dont and are sucessful and not stuck in 1940's tech.

[wylin]

Oh yeah, Korea was taken over by Japan too but somehow you don't find old Koreans who can ONLy speak Japanese they way some Taiwanese operate. Why? Cuz Koreans have DIGNITY and Taiwanese DON'T.


um i think the dignity is lost in copying and using japanese technology (or asking for direct help in case of hundai from mitsubishi) in their cars and electronics. Also their are alot of koreans in japan....who speak only japanese.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Oct 15 2002, 12:05 PM
But I want to hear more about what ChinaLama is saying. I know technically why the anti-commie hate is there, and I know the basics in Taiwan history, but I don't understand fully why I hear Taiwanese say such broad anti-mainlander sentiments.

For instance, hearing that the mainland is full of 'whores and losers'? (Yeah, wtf?) And one of my best friends flipping out while we were in Japan 'cuz we ran into some mainlanders. She kept saying, "I don't trust them. Look at them. They're so suspicious." And this friend is half native Taiwanese - shan ren.
it's all about propaganda. for the most part i think taiwanese people buy into anti-mainland propaganda just like mainlanders buy into anti-taiwan propaganda.

as for taiwanese people looking down on mainlanders, i think they'd be in for a rude awakening when taiwanese industries become entirely too dependent on the mainland market and cheap mainland labor. there're still alot of progress to be made, but mainland cities aren't what they used to be anymore. a couple of friends just visited shanghai and beijing a year or two ago and they say that some places look just like HK. 10 years ago HKers were still looking down on mainlanders. now everybody is rushing to learn mandarin. doing business with taiwan never made anybody rush to learn mandarin. integration with the mainland did. there is still a prevalent idea in HK that mainlanders are uncultured, but they are definitely not looking down on mainlanders like they're losers anymore. there's money to be made in the mainland. (and actually, HKers pretty much think that there's not much difference between urban mainlanders and taiwanese people.) even lee kuan yew say that it's inevitable that the taiwanese economy becomes integrated and intertwined with the mainland economy.

i don't know how you might stop the anti-mainland sentiments in your children's generation, but i do suggest taking them to visit mainland. and actually i'm guessing that by the time they are old enough, that mainland is not just a place of "losers and whores" would be painfully obvious to older generations of taiwanese people.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Oct 15 2002, 02:26 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by wylin@Oct 15 2002, 01:32 PM
talkin bout freedom CL hmm wat happens when u protest in china, sum guyz roll up and bust a command and conquer smush and fire AK-47s into the crowd full auto. What happens if ur a distent group like the falun gong or tibetian nationlists u get taken out bak and shot w/ an ak47 and ur family is billed for the shells, etc. there is no freedom their just communism and economic (mostly taiwanese company) expliotation.
there seems to be this big deal over "freedom" or the lack thereof in mainland china. but all of this propaganda, and yes, i say it's propaganda, is coming from countries that are able to keep their people educated and well fed. what i mean is, in all this talk about the lack of "freedom", you have to assume that people in the mainland actually care about wanting "freedom". but the fact is that they just either want to get rich or they want to have more nutritious meals. nobody in mainland gives a damn about falun gong or the "plight" of tibet. and by the way, life in tibet has gotten many many times better since the CCP took over. no doubt the CCP should have more humane ways of handling dissidents. but you'd be mistaken if you think that people in the mainland actually care about "freedom". they care more about $$$.

[ChinaLama]

I think there are people on the Mainland who care about freedom; or else hundreds to thousands of students would not have given up their health and their lives to demonstrate back in 1989. And there are plenty of overseas students who care about freedom; that's one reason some of them don't go back.

But I think things in China, in terms of freedom, are generally getting better rather than worse. I mean tiananmen was 13 years ago, and there hasn't been a similar crackdown since then. Also, I think if you're a government official, you don't have to fear for your life as much as you did back in the 60s, when even a HINT of opposition to Mao's plans could result in being "struggled against" and beaten to death. Today, even a few peasants have managed to sue officials for compensation, so that is another improvement over either blind obedience or having to accept corruption. Another good sign is that Jiang Zemin is not building a Deng Xiaoping or Mao Zedong reign, even though he has tried, and perhaps is still trying. But it's likely that he'll have to step down, so China's government, is moving toward a more institutionalized and less individualized form, which is the first step toward democracy. After all, how did Taiwan become democratic? It COULDN'T so long as a dominating personality like Chiang Kai-Shek was in charge, and didn't loosen up that much under his son. It was only under Lee Teng Hui, who was NOT as charismatic or as dominating a personality as Chiang Kai Shek, that it STARTED democraticizing. Admittedly, the process moved pretty fast in the 1990s in Taiwan, but there is hope for a slower transition toward a more institutionalized and more democratic mainland Chinese government.





<!--EDIT|ChinaLama|Oct 15 2002, 08:31 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 03:31 PM
I think there are people on the Mainland who care about freedom; or else hundreds to thousands of students would not have given up their health and their lives to demonstrate back in 1989. And there are plenty of overseas students who care about freedom; that's one reason some of them don't go back.

But I think things in China, in terms of freedom, are generally getting better rather than worse. I mean tiananmen was 13 years ago, and there hasn't been a similar crackdown since then. Also, I think if you're a government official, you don't have to fear for your life as much as you did back in the 60s, when even a HINT of opposition to Mao's plans could result in being "struggled against" and beaten to death. Today, even a few peasants have managed to sue officials for compensation, so that is another improvement over either blind obedience or having to accept corruption. Another good sign is that Jiang Zemin is not building a Deng Xiaoping or Mao Zedong reign, even though he has tried, and perhaps is still trying. But it's likely that he'll have to step down, so China's government, is moving toward a more institutionalized and less individualized form, which is the first step toward democracy. After all, how did Taiwan become democratic? It COULDN'T so long as a dominating personality like Chiang Kai-Shek was in charge, and didn't loosen up that much under his son. It was only under Lee Teng Hui, who was NOT as charismatic or as dominating a personality as Chiang Kai Shek, that it STARTED democraticizing. Admittedly, the process moved pretty fast in the 1990s in Taiwan, but there is hope for a slower transition toward a more institutionalized and more democratic mainland Chinese government.
but you know what, all but one of the student leaders of the 1989 protests are actually still in china. he refuses to leave. all the other leaders are in the states enjoying american lives. you should see how the main leader looks now. he was skin and bones in 1989. now he's pretty plumb looking.

to comment on the 1989 tianenmen protests... (and by the way, had i been old enough, i would have flew my ass to beijing to participate)

during the immediate pre-1989 china, the government was actually experimenting with loosening social control hand in hand with loosening economic control. the result was the same as the Democracy Wall movement and the Hundred Flowers movement - massive protests against the government leading to crackdowns. the reason there hasn't been a similar crackdown in recent years is because of a combination of the government being alot stricter with their crackdowns and people having more money (and therefore happier). not that i don't sympathize with the 1989 tianenmen student protests, (hell, one time i almost started crying while i was reading about it) but believe it or not, social control would probably be alot looser had they not protested. people who are in charge now are deathly afraid of social chaos because they went through the cultural revolution. basically they were afraid of what the student protests would lead to, and many people even agree that the students were demanding way too much more than what the politicians were willing to give up.

commenting on Mao, Deng, and Jiang...

actually, Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping ruled China very differently. Mao built a cult of personality and was very passionate, while Deng was completely opposite. he had been victimized twice by Mao's style of rule and he detested the building of a cult of personality. he was alot more frugal than Mao and extremely practical. Mao would probably have rolled over in his grave if he had heard Deng say "to get rich is glorious". Jiang on the other hand, in my opinion, is trying to be a Western style politician. so you may think that he does not have an iron grip on China like Mao and Deng, in my opinion, if he exercised the kind of control that Mao and Deng exercised, you would not know about it. and actually, Jiang has been accused of building a Mao-style cult of personality with his "Three Represents".

[ChinaLama]

Well, Deng Xiaoping is kind of like Cixi. By the 1990s, he wasn't even holding any formal office, I think, except maybe as chief of military or something, or not even that. So he's the sort of person who sort of rules behind the scene.

But I agree, Deng Xiaoping did not have a cult of personality style of rule.

I think Jiang Zemin, rather than being a Western style politician, more likely just does not have the same authority OR power that the older leaders did. Jiang Zemin was NOT in the Long March and he was NOT in the liberation, I think. He came to power in a more or less steady bureaucratic rise, so his staying in power depends on the support of a lot of people behind the scenes. Also, I heard he's not as tight with the military as Deng and Mao were, so like Mao said, "power comes out of the barrel of a gun." And Jiang Zemin just doesn't have the guns, so he doesn't have as much power.

if anyone is like a Western style politician, I suppose Zhu Rongji would be, since he's also into liberalizing the economy and cleaning up corruption, so he's more into how important institutionalization is, which seems to be more Western style.


Also, why is Li Peng still in power? all those students wanted him down and got killed for nothing, because 13 yrs later, HE'S STILL AROUND. ARGGHH!!!

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 04:39 PM
Also, why is Li Peng still in power? all those students wanted him down and got killed for nothing, because 13 yrs later, HE'S STILL AROUND. ARGGHH!!!
bah! i don't know. but i suspect it has to do with the fact that he's Zhou Enlai's adopted son.

[ChinaLama]

LI PENG IS ZHOU ENLAI's adopted son?! WTF?! Well, I guess I can't give props to Premier Zhou for being a good father cuz Li Peng is one of the most corrupt and despicable politicians there is in China.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 15 2002, 04:44 PM
LI PENG IS ZHOU ENLAI's adopted son?! WTF?! Well, I guess I can't give props to Premier Zhou for being a good father cuz Li Peng is one of the most corrupt and despicable politicians there is in China.
you know what, Zhou Enlai was very beloved and a very sensible man as well as politician, but i think he would have fully supported the Tianenmen crackdown back in 1989. and he has put people away before. remember, he came from the OG liberation gang. as a matter of fact, his wife Deng Yingchao was one of the elders that was heavily pushing for the crackdown.