Non-Hawaiian use of the word "hapa" (New Age Colonialism?) [Archive]

thaite

03-09-2004, 06:05 PM

I dunno if I agree or disagree.

First of all, I do think the charge that those who use the word are 'raping' the language is ridiculous. You also can't hijack the term and 'rape' the language at the same time. If you hijack something, that means you took it and adopted it and represent it as your own. If you 'rape' the language it means you're changing it and trying to represent it as the genuine thing. I've never known hapa when referring to race to be be anything other than a slang term.

Secondly, from that website:

hapa: "of mixed blood, person of mixed blood as in hapa hawai'i, part Hawaiian" (The Hawaiian Dictionary, Mary Kawena Pukui, page 58)

As I'm told, the word hapa literally means half or part. Now someone tell me, is that correct or not?

Also, as I'm told, except as slang, when referring to race the word hapa is almost never used alone, but with a modifier, such as hapa haole, or hapa kepani, or hapa popolo or, as it says, hapa hawai'i. The argument the website is trying to make but isn't doing a good job of is saying because it's so badly written is that by default hapa means Hawaiian. They need to promote that idea if they want to reclaim the word. But why would you even need to use the phrase hapa hawai'i, if by default hapa already means hawaiian?

As far as I'm concerned, I don't use hapa in real life because it's pretty obvious I'm mixed Asian, but I'll use hapa online because that's what people understand. I'm just as perfectly content to use thaite or leuk kreung.

Nor do I like the tone of that site:
The raping of Hawaii continues with a new group of Colonizers, the California Wanna Be Hapas. As colonizers, California Wanna Be Hapas raped from Hawaiian Hapas their very identity, culture, and history and called it their own. These colonizers justified their illegal actions by creating organizations such as Hapa Issues Forum and other "Hapa" online forums. They gained allies from elite mixed Eurasians who like California Wanna Be Hapas, stole their term from the wartime and colonial Eurasians while stomping on the rights of Amerasians and Hawaiian Hapas.

Euraisan elite? Gimme a break. Nobody's taken their culture, identity and history as they charge, unless they themselves have forgotten who they are.

They can suck it. Hell, I might just start using hapa so I can piss 'em off.

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 06:06 PM

Hah! I've used the word since 9th grade, when I learned it from a real hapa.

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 06:12 PM

"i guess i am facinated as to why they (non-hawaiians) choose "hapa". there are many other words which simply signify "mixed" or "half" but they wouldn't choose those (e.g. mestizo, mulatto). why? because they signify a chicano/mexican identity or a black one. so then the question remains, why are they comfy approrpriating a hawaiian term and not a spanish or black one? i think it is because they are more interested in hawaiianness in general for a whole range of reasons!"

- J. Kehaulani Kauanui, Ph.D. (University of California); B.A. University of California at Berkeley; Presently Assistant Professor at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut

Don't flatter yourself, dude. I always understood hapa to mean "half." Sure, I could say "I'm rice cracker and i'm half." It just doesn't roll off the tongue. "Half what?" would be the next logical answer, however by saying hapa it's well implied that I am half Asian. And no, I'm not saying because I'm so interested in Hawaii and bent on raping it's culture.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 06:26 PM

Euraisan elite? Gimme a break. Nobody's taken their culture, identity and history as they charge, unless they themselves have forgotten who they are.

They can suck it. Hell, I might just start using hapa so I can piss 'em off.

No, I think they mean that by appropriating the word, their own experiences are cheapened.

Like for example, I know this is an extreme and horrible analogy, but lets say there was a kung fu school in the USA in the 1950's or something that would bestow the highest of their school the rank of "Shaolin Monk..." Then the term catches on, and basically all the kung fu schools start using "Shaolin Monk" as their highest rank, and it catches on all of the USA, and soon "Shaolin Monk" means someone who has achieved the highest rank of their Kung Fu school.

It would be rather insulting to real Shaolin Monks, and kind of cheapening their experience, if they were to come to the USA and say, I'm a shaolin monk, and people only think that they went to kung fu school for like 4 years.

Now, I'll be the first to say that being a hapa isn't an achievement, but it is a term that has been used to describe a specific people, and other people who are not of that origin taking it and using it as their own can offend some people who take pride in being whatever they are.

Don't flatter yourself, dude. I always understood hapa to mean "half." Sure, I could say "I'm rice cracker and i'm half." It just doesn't roll off the tongue. "Half what?" would be the next logical answer, however by saying hapa it's well implied that I am half Asian.

You could say half-korean...

that's maybe because you're in the east.

here in california - EVERYONE says it.

love,
prof. frink

I've only heard the term online. Must be a west coast thing.

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 06:27 PM

thaite

03-09-2004, 06:28 PM

No, I think they mean that by appropriating the word, their own experiences are cheapened...

Well, in that case, I see their point. But I still don't like their tone.

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 06:28 PM

You could say half-korean...

I say that too.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 06:39 PM

How do hapas in Hawaii refer to themselves? I, like Thaite, have always thought the word is a modifier. I can see if they refer to themselves as hapas, then that could be perceived as non-Hawaiins appropriating the word, but I've always been led to believe that a part Hawaiin would correctly refer to themself as a hapa hawaiin, rather than the slang term hapa. I mean, saying hapa isn't that un-PC, is it? It's not derogatory, we're not calling ourselves Hawaiins, we're using a word that means, literally, "half," and for which the use of has become an easy way to identify ourselves as half Asian.

I can't really speak for them. Where is maldito when we need him? He'd be all over this mess!

I can see your point as hapa as a modifier meaning "half" and the hawaiin part signifying that it's half hawaiian, but when did "hapa" by itself start to contain its Asian connotation?

Well, in that case, I see their point. But I still don't like their tone.

I have to agree with you on that, cuz from if you inspect the site more, they take pride in showing off their arguments with hapakristina, and basically it seems that the site was created because someone got kicked off of hapas.com and felt bitter.

They only seem to post good criticism about themselves, and comments against them seem to be coming from idiots, so that they can show that their opposition is from idiots.

thaite

03-09-2004, 06:43 PM

oh, no kidding. that livejournal thread was a big 'ol dramatic mess.

Mr.Lum

03-09-2004, 06:45 PM

well, it did/does mean half hawaiian not asian...

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 07:17 PM

well, it did/does mean half hawaiian not asian...

In Hawaiian, yes.

But in English? The meaning is different.

Mr.Lum

03-09-2004, 07:19 PM

its a pigin english word.

>:^|

03-09-2004, 07:27 PM

I always thought that "hapa" was derived from Japanese. :confused:
In the Japanese American community, that word used to be considered mildly derogatory.

Okay, BTR <VBG>, where does the Hawaiian language originate?

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 07:29 PM

Okay, BTR <VBG>, where does the Hawaiian language originate?

Hawaii

What does this have to do with anything?

>:^|

03-09-2004, 07:31 PM

Is it related to Japanese?

Ron

03-09-2004, 07:44 PM

It's related to Tahitian/Melanesian languages. Personally, I never use hapa. I just say I'm half this or that.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 07:48 PM

Is it related to Japanese?

Why does Japanese have anything to do with this?

Kuchana

03-09-2004, 07:50 PM

I've actually heard the word hapa used when I was in Hawaii but I noticed that it was used a lot by mixed Hawaiian/Asians. They seem to take pride in calling themselves hapa. I'm thinking one of the reasons is due to the fact that the number of native Hawaiians are declining to be replaced instead with mixed Hawaiians/Asians. Although some Hawaiians might disagree but Hawaiians and Asians have for the most part been assimilated into each other as a representation of Hawaiian culture. 9 times out of 10 a Hawaiian that you'll encounter and I have is of Asian/Hawaiian ancestry. I think as the number of pure blooded Hawaiians declines further, the word native Hawaiian will become for the most part nonexistent since there their numbers are so few because they've intermingled with the Asian population.

At my former school, I was even surprised to learn how many of the international Polynesian students had Asian blood running in their veins yet they defined themselves as Tongan, Samoan, etc.

coagulated fat

03-09-2004, 08:13 PM

The word has already been appropriated whether native Hawaiians like it or not. You can't mold the language around your specific racial ideology, language just happens, and they would do well to let it alone and fight a more worthy cause.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 08:18 PM

>:^|

03-09-2004, 08:43 PM

Why does Japanese have anything to do with this?

If the word is of Japanese origin, then maybe Japanese people will want to lay claim to it and the Hawaiian claim is thus rendered moot.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 08:45 PM

If the word is of Japanese origin, then maybe Japanese people will want to lay claim to it and the Hawaiian claim is thus rendered moot.

It isn't Japanese in origin.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 09:51 PM

How do hapas in Hawaii refer to themselves? I, like Thaite, have always thought the word is a modifier. I can see if they refer to themselves as hapas, then that could be perceived as non-Hawaiins appropriating the word, but I've always been led to believe that a part Hawaiin would correctly refer to themself as a hapa hawaiin, rather than the slang term hapa.

It's like the term half... In America you say people would ask you "half what?".

In Japan however, for example, people don't ask. Haafu just means someone who is half Japanese and half something else. Being that Japan is not a very multicultural place, half, just means it is assumed the person is half japanese and something else.

The same might be appleid to hawaii, in which case hapa came to mean "half-hawaiian" because the racial majoirty of hawaii is hawaiian, and for years and years hapa just meant someone who is half hawaiian and something else (probably white in most cases).

Slang or not, don't you see why some people are bothered by that?

Kuchana

03-09-2004, 09:56 PM

Such as Hawaiian independence and expulsion of all non-Hawaiians from the islands.. right?

Impossible. The native Hawaiian popuation is gradually dying out. No valid claim can be made to throw out non-Hawaiians unless they don't have any Hawaiian blood running in their veins. Yet, what does that say for people such as the whites who have lived there for years? Does it give them reason enough to be expelled from the island since they don't have one drop of Hawaiian blood?

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 10:05 PM

Impossible. The native Hawaiian popuation is gradually dying out. No valid claim can be made to throw out non-Hawaiians unless they don't have any Hawaiian blood running in their veins. Yet, what does that say for people such as the whites who have lived there for years? Does it give them reason enough to be expelled from the island since they don't have one drop of Hawaiian blood?

I was joking.

maldito

03-09-2004, 10:53 PM

As I'm told, the word hapa literally means half or part. Now someone tell me, is that correct or not?

Yes. What you read in that page is also listed in the Hawaiian dictionary.

Also, as I'm told, except as slang, when referring to race the word hapa is almost never used alone, but with a modifier, such as hapa haole, or hapa kepani, or hapa popolo or, as it says, hapa hawai'i.

Yes, that was the case but seems to have evolved since the late 1700s to early 1800s.

The argument the website is trying to make but isn't doing a good job of is saying because it's so badly written is that by default hapa means Hawaiian.

In English, if "hapa" is used alone, then yes, it refers to the person since people use "Hapa" in English to refer to a person's mix.

I'll use hapa online because that's what people understand. I'm just as perfectly content to use thaite or leuk kreung.

I have been taught to call myself what I am, not to refer to myself by certain labels like "hapa".

Nor do I like the tone of that site:

You're not alone. But out of curiousity, what exactly did you not like? Or not agree with?

Nobody's taken their culture, identity and history as they charge, unless they themselves have forgotten who they are.

Seems that most people who use the term "hapa" are familiar with its origin, yet most people, especially on the east coast have never heard the term before. Can you assure us that in the future the identity and origin of the term will never be forgotten? As far as the term HAPA goes, it could get to that point, just as the kingdom of Hawaii was stolen by the U.S., how many aspects of the culture were nearly extinguished by misisonaries, how even the language could've headed for demise had it not been for a group of people 20 years ago who decided to change that fateful outcome, and they have.

Don't flatter yourself, dude. I always understood hapa to mean "half." Sure, I could say "I'm rice cracker and i'm half." It just doesn't roll off the tongue. "Half what?" would be the next logical answer, however by saying hapa it's well implied that I am half Asian.

First of all, your comment was in response to someone else's comment on that website, of which was a female. As for saying that saying "Hapa" it is well implied that you're half Asian, by whose definition are you going by? Because you could ask that definition of various groups of people in the Hawaiian islands and you could very well come up with different answers, and don't be surprised for the most part if they do not interpret it as half Asian. Same goes for the usage here on the west coast.

In addition to calling myself hapa, I also use words like Eurasian and biracial. To me, and probably many others, these are just words that say the same thing. That I am half one thing and half another.

Because I am multigenerationally mixed, and coming from the Hawaiian islands where it is not uncommon at all, this is probably why we don't label ourselves and have been taught to say exactly what we are. One could be easily identified as a hapa haole or hapa, but it's not specific, whereas identifying yourself specifically would be much better, at least in my opinion.

I personally don't call myself Asian, nor Polynesian and definitely not European. I say exactly what my ethnic mix is.

SunWuKong

03-09-2004, 11:01 PM

Like for example, I know this is an extreme and horrible analogy, but lets say there was a kung fu school in the USA in the 1950's or something that would bestow the highest of their school the rank of "Shaolin Monk..." Then the term catches on, and basically all the kung fu schools start using "Shaolin Monk" as their highest rank, and it catches on all of the USA, and soon "Shaolin Monk" means someone who has achieved the highest rank of their Kung Fu school.

off-topic: i despise YMCA style kiddy karate where you attain a black belt in a year or two. as i understand it, traditionally it should take years, maybe as many as ten, to attain black belt.

but i guess parents of those kids want results. they don't want to see that their kid has been in a karate program for a year and is only a measly yellow belt.

maldito

03-09-2004, 11:05 PM

I'm thinking one of the reasons is due to the fact that the number of native Hawaiians are declining to be replaced instead with mixed Hawaiians/Asians. Although some Hawaiians might disagree but Hawaiians and Asians have for the most part been assimilated into each other as a representation of Hawaiian culture. 9 times out of 10 a Hawaiian that you'll encounter and I have is of Asian/Hawaiian ancestry. I think as the number of pure blooded Hawaiians declines further, the word native Hawaiian will become for the most part nonexistent since there their numbers are so few because they've intermingled with the Asian population.

I come from an island where 50% of the island are Hawaiians. Many of them are mixed, and none of them calls themselves "hapa" nor "hapa haole" but just "Hawaiians.

Many Hawaiians are mixed with Chinese for a good reason. I haven't met a lot of Japanese/Hawaiian mixed people, although many of them exist in my own family.

Also, according to the 2000 census the number of Hawaiians who listed themselves as "Hawaiian" only were around 80,000.

At my former school, I was even surprised to learn how many of the international Polynesian students had Asian blood running in their veins yet they defined themselves as Tongan, Samoan, etc.

Not sure about Tongans but a few Chinese also went to Samoa and to Tahiti.

The native Hawaiian popuation is gradually dying out.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by this. In 1898 there were around 37,000 - 41,000 Hawaiians. Today in the Hawaiian islands, according to the 2000 census, there are 240,000 Hawaiians while nationwide a total of 401,000. So how could Hawaiians be dying?

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 11:19 PM

Also, according to the 2000 census the number of Hawaiians who listed themselves as "Hawaiian" only were around 80,000.

according to the 2000 census, there are 240,000 Hawaiians while nationwide a total of 401,000

explain please

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 11:39 PM

It's like the term half... In America you say people would ask you "half what?".

In Japan however, for example, people don't ask. Haafu just means someone who is half Japanese and half something else. Being that Japan is not a very multicultural place, half, just means it is assumed the person is half japanese and something else.

The same might be appleid to hawaii, in which case hapa came to mean "half-hawaiian" because the racial majoirty of hawaii is hawaiian, and for years and years hapa just meant someone who is half hawaiian and something else (probably white in most cases).

Slang or not, don't you see why some people are bothered by that?

I've been called haafu. By people who know I'm half Korean.

First of all, your comment was in response to someone else's comment on that website, of which was a female. As for saying that saying "Hapa" it is well implied that you're half Asian, by whose definition are you going by? Because you could ask that definition of various groups of people in the Hawaiian islands and you could very well come up with different answers, and don't be surprised for the most part if they do not interpret it as half Asian. Same goes for the usage here on the west coast.

"Dude" can be used towards males or females. My response was worded to convey my distaste with the general accusation that people using the word hapa have some great interest in hijacking Hawaiin culture and that's why we use the word. And I'm going by my definition, the definition I've basically grown up with, the origins of it being long forgotten. Many others have this same definition.

Because I am multigenerationally mixed, and coming from the Hawaiian islands where it is not uncommon at all, this is probably why we don't label ourselves and have been taught to say exactly what we are. One could be easily identified as a hapa haole or hapa, but it's not specific, whereas identifying yourself specifically would be much better, at least in my opinion.

I personally don't call myself Asian, nor Polynesian and definitely not European. I say exactly what my ethnic mix is.

This I can agree with. But again, it seems like semantics. I and others mean one thing using hapa to define ourselves, others mean a different thing.

BeTheReds

03-09-2004, 11:45 PM

I've been called haafu. By people who know I'm half Korean.

That's different, because you're probably not conversing in Japanese.

I dunno, for me, like the other day I met someone, and she was like are you "haafu" and I said yes. She then asked "Which one of your parents is Japanese?"

I also used to think that haafu just means half and that anyone and anything that is half can be refered to as haafu.

It's not the case. Now when i have to explain to people what I am in Japanese, I have to say Kankoku to Amerika no haafu.

This also bothers me cuz I am then basically saying that America = white which is something I've been adamantly against since the first time I was called half-Korean half-American.

Anyway I think I'll work on that concept being removed from English before i try to explain it to someone else about how their language is shitty.

How is that for going off topic! woohoo

rice cracker

03-09-2004, 11:51 PM

That's different, because you're probably not conversing in Japanese.

I dunno, for me, like the other day I met someone, and she was like are you "haafu" and I said yes. She then asked "Which one of your parents is Japanese?"

I also used to think that haafu just means half and that anyone and anything that is half can be refered to as haafu.

It was by a Korean woman who has spent considerable time in Japan, and thus would probably understand what "haafu" means to Japanese people.

Anyway, I hate to be incorrect with my usage of the word hapa. BUT, can no one see why this word is being used the way it is? I mean, we've all used it. What did we mean by it? And can no one see why it's unpleasant to be told a term you are comfortable using to define yourself is suddenly evil?

BeTheReds

03-10-2004, 12:04 AM

It was by a Korean woman who has spent considerable time in Japan, and thus would probably understand what "haafu" means to Japanese people.

She's also very international and probably used to things not always being the way they appear to be drilled into people's minds.

I don't have problems explaining the American doesnt equal white to people who have been abroad. Only the ones who haven't. That's a majority of Japanese, and to them "haafu" means half Japanese.

Anyway, I hate to be incorrect with my usage of the word hapa. BUT, can no one see why this word is being used the way it is? I mean, we've all used it. What did we mean by it? And can no one see why it's unpleasant to be told a term you are comfortable using to define yourself is suddenly evil?

Good points through and through, but, using an example that hits home (for me anyway), picture a white guy saying:

"I hate to be incorrect with my usage of American. BUT, can no one see why this word is being used the way it is? I mean, we've all used it. What did we mean by it? And can no one see why it's unpleasant to be told a term you are comfortable using to define yourself is suddenly evil?"

While yes, hapa has come to mean something other than its original meaning, I can see why it might be a problem for real hapas (for lack of a better term).

AngryABCGirl

03-10-2004, 12:05 AM

I have no memory of not using the word hapa for describe someone half-Asian. I always assumed it was the Hawaiian word for half or something, never realizing the rest of the history.

Seamus

03-10-2004, 12:20 AM

It's not the case. Now when i have to explain to people what I am in Japanese, I have to say Kankoku to Amerika no haafu.

Why don't you just say you're Kankoku to (whatever countries your other parent's ancestors came from)?

This also bothers me cuz I am then basically saying that America = white which is something I've been adamantly against since the first time I was called half-Korean half-American.

I really hate that too. I got into an argument once with a girl whose mother is German and whose father is Chinese, because she was telling someone else how she was "half Chinese, half American," and I insisted that she could be half Chinese and half German, or 100% American, but not half American. I said something like, "were you born and raised in this country? Then you're 100% American" She misinterpreted me, though, and thought I was accusing her of not being proud to be an American by saying she was only "half American." Also, my argument fell apart because was actually born in Germany, and has dual citizenship. Which still doesn't change the fact that she's 100% American and not just half.

Once this guy was like "I have no idea what the heck your ethnic background is." I told him Chinese, and he was like "no way, I thought you were Chinese American or something." I didn't want to get into a debate about how he had asked me a question about my ethnicity and not my nationality, so I just said "yup." I've learned to stop giving a damn, though, as long as people acknowledge that I'm both American (by nationality) and Chinese (by descent).

Craig

03-10-2004, 12:41 AM

that's maybe because you're in the east.

here in california - EVERYONE says it.

love,
prof. frinkThe only person in real life that I've heard use the term "hapa" is brother buns. Otherwise, I can't recall hearing the term "hapa". I mainly hear "mixed", and once in a blue moon I will hear "Eurasian". I've heard "Amerasian" before, but I think most people that know that term will also know it's derogatory. Most of the time I hear "half" or "part" is when people are referring to something that doesn't seem to be obvious.

Mr.Lum

03-10-2004, 03:51 AM

Not sure about Tongans but a few Chinese also went to Samoa and to Tahiti.

not so much. very few in Tonga. its like 99%Tongan there or something and the rest are mixed/left over whites.

maldito

03-10-2004, 06:42 AM

explain please

2000 Census (http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-14.pdf)

Office of Hawaiian Affairs Data Book (http://www.oha.org/pdf/databook_6_02.pdf)

I was off on the amount of Hawaiians in Hawaii. It is 239,655, or it was that back in 2000. That's from the US census while OHA (Office of Hawn. Affairs) gathers their own through the office of Health Status Monitoring - State Dept. of Health in which they show 254,910 Hawaiians.

The total (which I got from OHA who got it from the US census) is 401,162.

it seems like semantics. I and others mean one thing using hapa to define ourselves, others mean a different thing.

True.

BeTheReds

03-10-2004, 05:14 PM

2000 Census (http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-14.pdf)

Office of Hawaiian Affairs Data Book (http://www.oha.org/pdf/databook_6_02.pdf)

I was off on the amount of Hawaiians in Hawaii. It is 239,655, or it was that back in 2000. That's from the US census while OHA (Office of Hawn. Affairs) gathers their own through the office of Health Status Monitoring - State Dept. of Health in which they show 254,910 Hawaiians.

The total (which I got from OHA who got it from the US census) is 401,162.

You didn't explain at all. Here I'll ask again.. please pay attention to the bold...

Also, according to the 2000 census the number of Hawaiians who listed themselves as "Hawaiian" only were around 80,000.

80,000 Hawaiians you say....

according to the 2000 census, there are 240,000 Hawaiians while nationwide a total of 401,000

I thought you said the census said there were 80,000

Mr.Lum

03-10-2004, 05:18 PM

I think hes talking about Hawaiians in Hawaii.

BeTheReds

03-10-2004, 05:24 PM

No, cuz he said there were 240,000 Hawaiians in Hawaii in the second quote.

Mr.Lum

03-10-2004, 05:29 PM

maybe fullblooded?

SynRG

03-10-2004, 06:56 PM

Whatever, I'm Eurasian. :P

haolegirl

03-10-2004, 07:15 PM

http://www.realhapas.com/

This site makes an argument for the disuse of the word "hapa" out of respect for Hawaiian culture. While I can't say I agree or disagree with it, there seems to be a legitimate concern over mixed-Asians' choice to use the word to mean someone who is of part Asian heritage.

It also talks about the conflicts between Hawaiians and all the non-Hawaiian newcomers thinking it's chic to call themselves Hawaiians, and all the mixed-Asians out there exotifying Hawaii and calling it their own, when really it isn't.

What　are everyone else's thoughts?

Are you Eugene? The notorious Eugene who wrote that article about Eurasians? Anyway the website that I helped put together has created alot of tension. In fact I even have my share of hate email but it's obvious that many people have been reading it when it has been up for less than a week.

One of the points that we tried to make is that like in your article... many people are using the term "hapa" as some use "Eurasian" to try to create a mythical image that they use in order to belong. Instead... many tend to focus on me and attack my looks (LOL) which is expected of course but this is not surprising. The existence of the page like the existence of your article at Eurasian Nation (if you are the Notorious Eugene) created alot of buzz and alot of discussion not to mention alot of hate. Anyone could see it at http://eurasiannation.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=politics&num=1075871286&action=display&start=75

One good thing is coming out of this page. So far more people than ever are becoming more aware of the Hawaiian culture, the language, and its people. There are a few who have written to me telling me that they understand. A few have told me that they agree with me and with others there but the site was never about me. It was about the language so even with the hate emails and the hateful comments posted about me... at least more people are aware that there are some Hawaiians who have a problem with it. Finally it is online where the misuse of the word "hapa" fluorished and since this is the first website created by and for Hawaiians... well... at least now people can see for themselves how REAL Hawaiians... and how REAL Hapas feel.

Are we trying to change people's minds? No. Are we trying to dictate that non-Hawaiians stop using the word? No. However that is what many see but like your article we express our opinions as you expressed yours. So far... I'm glad we stirred discussion and awareness of the Hawaiian language etc.

- Lana

Well, in that case, I see their point. But I still don't like their tone.

How do you expect them to react? If people started calling themselves a Japanese word which some Japanese foudn offensive then they would be all over their ass! :smile:

kimpossible

03-10-2004, 07:25 PM

Hmm. Maybe it's time to rethink the forum name. And my handle. I didn't realize it was offensive before reading realhapas. I started using it when I was referred as one upon moving to the West Coast.

Edit by BeTheReds: kimpossible used to go by the handle Hello_Hapa, from where this forum, which she used to moderate, got its name.

haolegirl

03-10-2004, 07:32 PM

If the word is of Japanese origin, then maybe Japanese people will want to lay claim to it and the Hawaiian claim is thus rendered moot.

Nihongo:

"haafu" = Americanized for "half"
"happa" = "leaf"

Versus

"hapa" has many meanings. Please see the Hawaiian Dictionary by Mary Kawena Pukui but I will list it here for ease of use:

"hapa" =
1. "portion, fragment, part, fraciton, installment; to be partial, less"
2. "of mixed blood, person of mixed blood as in hapa Hawai'i, part Hawaiian"
3. "a minor in music"

So no... "hapa" is a Hawaiian word. "Happa" is a Japanese word. Domo arigato.

This is for comparison purposes only:

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=haafu

http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=hapa

Compare and contrast the amount of members.

Edit:

www.livejournal.com/community/hapas

For comparison purposes only

SynRG

03-10-2004, 08:38 PM

Hmm. Maybe it's time to rethink the forum name. And my handle. I didn't realize it was offensive before reading realhapas. I started using it when I was referred as one upon moving to the West Coast.

The problem is there isn't an English word (that I know of) that is inclusive of all people of partial Asian descent.. which is where sites that want to include everyone of partial Asian descent run into problems. There's always going to be someone out there accusing you of not including some group.

I suppose we could rename it "Hello mixed-Asians," but I think some ppl didn't like the term "mixed" (which I don't have a problem with and prefer over hapa, btw).

Just don't rename it "Hello Half-breed Outcasts of Society" and I guess I'll be fine :biggrin:

kitty

03-10-2004, 08:38 PM

I've always used the word 'biracial'. Never quite figured out why 'hapas' (i.e., people who are half asian) had a word to distinguish themselves from people of other mixed race ethnicity.

But I heard it first on a college campus so... *shrug*

maldito

03-10-2004, 09:43 PM

You didn't explain at all. Here I'll ask again.. please pay attention to the bold...

Eugene, I'm not a child, try not to sound condescending. You sound irritated by what I wrote. Take it easy!

Anyway, you said "explain" and I did based on what I saw initially. Not until after I read your post about "pay attention to the bold" did I look back and look at what you meant by "explain". I assumed you accidently posted the same quote twice, not realizing that they were both different. What would've been preferred is that you specificy in your post, exactly what you needed clarification in.

80,000 Hawaiians you say....

I thought you said the census said there were 80,000

On page 10, under In the state of Hawaii, how many Native Hawaiians lived on Hawaiian home lands?, second paragraph, second sentence it says:

According to the Census 2000, of the 80,000 people who in Hawaii who reported only Native Hawaiian......

On page 11, table 5 entitled Percent Distribution of Native Hawaiians and Non-Native Hawaiians Living on Hawaiian Home Lands for the State of Hawaii: 2000, under "Native Hawaiian alone" it lists 80,137.

I may have confused you with the varying amounts of Hawaiians. The 239,000 or whatever the exact amount was in 2000 applies to Hawaiians in the Hawaiian islands whereas 401,000 refers to the amount of Hawaiians within the United States. I mentioned 80,000 Hawaiians in reference to the pure Hawaiians since it was brought up that Hawaiians were dying when in 1898 there was 40,000 Hawaiians. So in reality, the amount grew. But if in one's mind (not a Polynesian) see a "Hawaiian" as a pure Polynesian, then we look to the 80,000 of Hawaiians who only listed themselves as Hawaiian, not including any other race/ethnicity. And these Hawaiians reside on Homestead lands.

maybe fullblooded?

I just realized that I should've written it "Hawaiian only" versus "Hawaiian" only, which probably was confusing.

kimpossible

03-10-2004, 09:55 PM

The problem is there isn't an English word (that I know of) that is inclusive of all people of partial Asian descent.. which is where sites that want to include everyone of partial Asian descent run into problems. There's always going to be someone out there accusing you of not including some group.

I suppose we could rename it "Hello mixed-Asians," but I think some ppl didn't like the term "mixed" (which I don't have a problem with and prefer over hapa, btw).

Just don't rename it "Hello Half-breed Outcasts of Society" and I guess I'll be fine :biggrin:

True, but I can change my screen name easily enough out of respect. Now that I know.

maldito

03-10-2004, 09:56 PM

The problem is there isn't an English word (that I know of) that is inclusive of all people of partial Asian descent.. which is where sites that want to include everyone of partial Asian descent run into problems.

Is it that important that there is a word for part Asians to identify with? I just don't understand the need to label oneself into a specific category.

BeTheReds

03-10-2004, 10:14 PM

Are you Eugene? The notorious Eugene who wrote that article about Eurasians? Anyway the website that I helped put together has created alot of tension. In fact I even have my share of hate email but it's obvious that many people have been reading it when it has been up for less than a week.
Yes, that's me, but this isn't the place to discuss my article. You can do so in the appropriate thread on this site, or on EurasianNation, please try to stay on topic.

One of the points that we tried to make is that like in your article... many people are using the term "hapa" as some use "Eurasian" to try to create a mythical image that they use in order to belong. Instead... many tend to focus on me and attack my looks (LOL) which is expected of course but this is not surprising. The existence of the page like the existence of your article at Eurasian Nation (if you are the Notorious Eugene) created alot of buzz and alot of discussion not to mention alot of hate. Anyone could see it at http://eurasiannation.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=politics&num=1075871286&action=display&start=75

Some people are stubborn and won't listen to things that they don't want to hear. We at yellowworld.org welcome all kinds of viewpoints. But please stop trying to plug my article and your site together. They deal with two completly seperate issues. You're talking about people trying to steal Hawaiian culture because they lack their own, or they think it's "in". I criticized the creation of a community when there is no natural connectivity, and also criticized how some people deal with inferiority complexes. And, there aren't lots of people here who actually agreed with me, so it might not be so beneficial to tie yourself to me like that. :biggrin:

One good thing is coming out of this page. So far more people than ever are becoming more aware of the Hawaiian culture, the language, and its people. There are a few who have written to me telling me that they understand. A few have told me that they agree with me and with others there but the site was never about me.
Please, if it was never about you, then why do you post pictures of yourself on every page? If it was never about you, then why do you post flamewars which you've had with people on other sites, and why do you try to make other sites look so bad? It appears to be very personal, and that might be why some people have trouble taking you seriously. As for me, I can see where you are coming from, but that's only because I already have a dislike for that site which you don't like. Other people who post there regularly probably won't e swayed by your arguments when they appear to be so personal.

It was about the language so even with the hate emails and the hateful comments posted about me... at least more people are aware that there are some Hawaiians who have a problem with it. Finally it is online where the misuse of the word "hapa" fluorished and since this is the first website created by and for Hawaiians... well... at least now people can see for themselves how REAL Hawaiians... and how REAL Hapas feel.

Hey, maybe you can answer this question... Just because hapa means one thing in Hawaiian, why can't it mean something else in English?

I've used the example of "sake" in Japanese meaning just "alcohol". But in English, "sake" means a specific kind of rice wine.

Another example is the word "cunning", which in English, means that you are clever, and calculating, it's usually a good thing.

In Korean, "Cunning" a borrowed word, means "cheating on your significant other." It's totally different from its original meaning.

In both cases, the different meaning in another language will never corrupt the meaning in the original language. How is English's usage of the word hapa in any way damaging to what it means in Hawaiian?

Are we trying to change people's minds? No. Are we trying to dictate that non-Hawaiians stop using the word? No.

Really? Then what is your goal? You're basically saying it's okay to use that term now?

However that is what many see but like your article we express our opinions as you expressed yours. So far... I'm glad we stirred discussion and awareness of the Hawaiian language etc.

That's never a problem. I'm glad you expressed it. Please answer my questions to you.

Eugene, I'm not a child, try not to sound condescending. You sound irritated by what I wrote. Take it easy!

Anyway, you said "explain" and I did based on what I saw initially. Not until after I read your post about "pay attention to the bold" did I look back and look at what you meant by "explain". I assumed you accidently posted the same quote twice, not realizing that they were both different. What would've been preferred is that you specificy in your post, exactly what you needed clarification in.

On page 10, under In the state of Hawaii, how many Native Hawaiians lived on Hawaiian home lands?, second paragraph, second sentence it says:

According to the Census 2000, of the 80,000 people who in Hawaii who reported only Native Hawaiian......

On page 11, table 5 entitled Percent Distribution of Native Hawaiians and Non-Native Hawaiians Living on Hawaiian Home Lands for the State of Hawaii: 2000, under "Native Hawaiian alone" it lists 80,137.

I may have confused you with the varying amounts of Hawaiians. The 239,000 or whatever the exact amount was in 2000 applies to Hawaiians in the Hawaiian islands whereas 401,000 refers to the amount of Hawaiians within the United States. I mentioned 80,000 Hawaiians in reference to the pure Hawaiians since it was brought up that Hawaiians were dying when in 1898 there was 40,000 Hawaiians. So in reality, the amount grew. But if in one's mind (not a Polynesian) see a "Hawaiian" as a pure Polynesian, then we look to the 80,000 of Hawaiians who only listed themselves as Hawaiian, not including any other race/ethnicity. And these Hawaiians reside on Homestead lands.

I just realized that I should've written it "Hawaiian only" versus "Hawaiian" only, which probably was confusing.

I didn't say you were a child, I just wanted you to clarify, because it wasn't clear to me what you were saying. When you didn't explain it clearly the first time, I thought I had to be more specific in the way I asked. I'm sorry if you felt offended.

Is it that important that there is a word for part Asians to identify with? I just don't understand the need to label oneself into a specific category.

It's not that important on a personal basis, but we can't exactly call this forum "Hello Overseas Koreans living in Japan with American Citizenship!"

We need a broader term to label this forum that doesn't sound too sickeningly PC.

maldito

03-10-2004, 10:24 PM

We need a broader term to label this forum that doesn't sound too sickeningly PC.

I like "mixed Asian". I, like many people in Hawaii don't call themselves Hapa or Hapa Haole. We say exactly what we are.

rice cracker

03-10-2004, 10:27 PM

Mixed Asian to me doesn't really encompass the other part of our DNA. And I also don't really care that much for the word "mixed" when used to describe our blood. Seems like such a purebred way of referring to a person.

BeTheReds

03-10-2004, 10:49 PM

I like "mixed Asian". I, like many people in Hawaii don't call themselves Hapa or Hapa Haole. We say exactly what we are.

And, Mixed Asian is loaded.

But we can't say exactly what we each are, because each of us are so different.

How about we compromise and say Hello Hapa-Melemele!

haolegirl

03-10-2004, 11:36 PM

Yes, that's me, but this isn't the place to discuss my article. You can do so in the appropriate thread on this site, or on EurasianNation, please try to stay on topic.

I posted my sources. Also I will refresh your memory since you seem to have forgotten but this is what you asked in your original post:

"Blah blah blah"... "What　are everyone else's thoughts?"

Please try to remember what you typed in your post.

Some people are stubborn and won't listen to things that they don't want to hear. We at yellowworld.org welcome all kinds of viewpoints. But please stop trying to plug my article and your site together.

Plugging? No... it's calling "citing sources."

They deal with two completly seperate issues.

Yes... but they can be compared and contrasted.

You're talking about people trying to steal Hawaiian culture because they lack their own, or they think it's "in". I criticized the creation of a community when there is no natural connectivity, and also criticized how some people deal with inferiority complexes. And, there aren't lots of people here who actually agreed with me, so it might not be so beneficial to tie yourself to me like that. :biggrin:

See above.

Please, if it was never about you, then why do you post pictures of yourself on every page?

Like how you need to review your original post asking "What are everyone's thoughts?" you also may want to look at the page. You will see only ONE picture of me on ONE page.

If it was never about you, then why do you post flamewars which you've had with people on other sites, and why do you try to make other sites look so bad?

I do? This is the first time I have addressed the site as the webmistress and co-ordinator of the site. This is also the first time that I have responded to the criticisms (LOL)

It appears to be very personal, and that might be why some people have trouble taking you seriously.

Well hmmm that seems hypocritical to me considering that you wrote a diatribe of an article for Eurasian Nation (note: citing a source). Do you care if people take you seriously? Do I care if people take me seriously? Obviously... I don't because I can tell that it's upsetting alot of people. That means that THEY are taking me seriously... and I'm not even provoking them to do so. They are reacting to me. Look at you... YOU reacted to the site and ARE reacting to the site so obviously... it was a serious matter for you to type type type away not to mention create a post ABOUT the site :smile:

As for me, I can see where you are coming from, but that's only because I already have a dislike for that site which you don't like. Other people who post there regularly probably won't e swayed by your arguments when they appear to be so personal.

I guess you have a reading comprehension problem but you need to read the comments on the page. One is from me. The others come from other people.

Hey, maybe you can answer this question... Just because hapa means one thing in Hawaiian, why can't it mean something else in English?

No comment

I've used the example of "sake" in Japanese meaning just "alcohol". But in English, "sake" means a specific kind of rice wine.

That's nihongo. I don't change the language nor is it for me to say how it's used because I'm not Japanese. I'm Chinese.

Another example is the word "cunning", which in English, means that you are clever, and calculating, it's usually a good thing.

In Korean, "Cunning" a borrowed word, means "cheating on your significant other." It's totally different from its original meaning.

Well in your example obviously Koreans changed a Korean word for Koreans to use.

In both cases, the different meaning in another language will never corrupt the meaning in the original language.

It can especially when it's outsiders doing the corrupting.

How is English's usage of the word hapa in any way damaging to what it means in Hawaiian?

If you don't know the answer to that then obviously you haven't read everything on the page which others do too. They tend to gloss over it and see what they want to see but it's all there.

Really? Then what is your goal? You're basically saying it's okay to use that term now?

It's not MY goal. That's the problem. Many people see it as it being MY goal. MY opinions. MY page. Look at how many people have been involved with the site. This is due to the goal being about the culture. The goal is to "Malama" the language. Refer to the Hawaiian Dictionary by Mary Kawena Pukui for the definition of "malama(and yes... there is a Hawaiian Dictionary written by and for Hawaiians).

- Lana

Eugene, I'm not a child, try not to sound condescending. You sound irritated by what I wrote. Take it easy!

Anyway, you said "explain" and I did based on what I saw initially. Not until after I read your post about "pay attention to the bold" did I look back and look at what you meant by "explain". I assumed you accidently posted the same quote twice, not realizing that they were both different. What would've been preferred is that you specificy in your post, exactly what you needed clarification in.

On page 10, under In the state of Hawaii, how many Native Hawaiians lived on Hawaiian home lands?, second paragraph, second sentence it says:

According to the Census 2000, of the 80,000 people who in Hawaii who reported only Native Hawaiian......

On page 11, table 5 entitled Percent Distribution of Native Hawaiians and Non-Native Hawaiians Living on Hawaiian Home Lands for the State of Hawaii: 2000, under "Native Hawaiian alone" it lists 80,137.

I may have confused you with the varying amounts of Hawaiians. The 239,000 or whatever the exact amount was in 2000 applies to Hawaiians in the Hawaiian islands whereas 401,000 refers to the amount of Hawaiians within the United States. I mentioned 80,000 Hawaiians in reference to the pure Hawaiians since it was brought up that Hawaiians were dying when in 1898 there was 40,000 Hawaiians. So in reality, the amount grew. But if in one's mind (not a Polynesian) see a "Hawaiian" as a pure Polynesian, then we look to the 80,000 of Hawaiians who only listed themselves as Hawaiian, not including any other race/ethnicity. And these Hawaiians reside on Homestead lands.

I just realized that I should've written it "Hawaiian only" versus "Hawaiian" only, which probably was confusing.

Kalani,
If people had actually LOOKED at those sources... well... the breakdowns were in there. I swear... it's very irritating when people don't read :tongue:

SynRG

03-10-2004, 11:39 PM

Well in your example obviously Koreans changed a Korean word for Koreans to use.

Um, last time I checked, "Cunning" was an English word.

haolegirl

03-10-2004, 11:54 PM

Um, last time I checked, "Cunning" was an English word.

I'll ask my bf who is half Korean to tell me the Korean word for "Cunning." He has a Korean dictionary so I'll find out what the Korean word for "Cunning" is from him and if this word has been changed by Koreans... for Koreans.

- Lana

BeTheReds

03-11-2004, 12:49 AM

I posted my sources. Also I will refresh your memory since you seem to have forgotten but this is what you asked in your original post:

"Blah blah blah"... "What　are everyone else's thoughts?"

Please try to remember what you typed in your post.

I want to know why you are so angry with me. I'm one of the few people who actually argued for your side, and I invited you to Yellowworld to present your platform. All I was saying is that you should stay on topic. If you want to discuss the similarities and differences that your site has with my article, then we can make a thread about that and discuss it there. This thread which we are typing in now is for talking about your site and your platform, and it has nothing to do with my article. It would be for your benefit if you would calm down, stay on topic, and explain your platform rather than jumping on the defensive from someone who isn't attacking you. I'm not attacking you, and no one else has so far.

Like how you need to review your original post asking "What are everyone's thoughts?" you also may want to look at the page. You will see only ONE picture of me on ONE page.

I meant what are everyone else's thoughts about YOUR WEBPAGE, and the topic it discusses. Not my article.

I do? This is the first time I have addressed the site as the webmistress and co-ordinator of the site. This is also the first time that I have responded to the criticisms (LOL)

Well, what I was talking about was how you, or whoever, posted responses from people at hapas.com and basically there is a whole section devoted to how stupid hapas.com is. Why is that important to your platform.

Well hmmm that seems hypocritical to me considering that you wrote a diatribe of an article for Eurasian Nation (note: citing a source). Do you care if people take you seriously? Do I care if people take me seriously? Obviously... I don't because I can tell that it's upsetting alot of people. That means that THEY are taking me seriously... and I'm not even provoking them to do so. They are reacting to me. Look at you... YOU reacted to the site and ARE reacting to the site so obviously... it was a serious matter for you to type type type away not to mention create a post ABOUT the site :smile:

I thought your concerns over the issue had some merit, that is why I created this thread. I was arguing for your side when no-one else would, and I invited you to join in. Why are you talking about an article I wrote on Eurasian Nation and calling me a hypocrite? I was only suggesting that if you would not negatively criticize specific other sites, and besmirch other members of that site, over personal issues, your platform would look stronger. It is only a suggestion.

I guess you have a reading comprehension problem but you need to read the comments on the page. One is from me. The others come from other people.

Sorry for the mistake. Even so, giving air to flamewars on another site only shows that you (or someone else) has a personal grudge, and kind of cheapens what you are trying to do.

No comment

This is sad. This is the only issue that is totally blocking me from giving you my total support, and you can't answer this question. If you haven't noticed by now, I've never disagreed with you, right now I am straddling the fence, and this is the one thing that's keeping me from totally joining you. Please try to answer this question.

That's nihongo. I don't change the language nor is it for me to say how it's used because I'm not Japanese. I'm Chinese.

It was an example where a word was borrowed from one language and the meaning was changed. The original word still has the original meaning. You don't care because you're not Japanese.. okay fair enough.

How about the verb "shanghai", which in English means to be tricked into performing service that one wouldn't normally perform.

Its meaning is totally different from what it means in Chinese.

Shanghai will always mean a city in Southern China, and the Chinese won't be distorted simply because English speakers use it as a verb to mean tricking someone into doing something which they wouldn't normally do.

"Hapa" is a word borrowed by English from Hawiian.
"Shanghai" is a word borrowed by English from Chinese.

In Chinese, "Shanghai" means a city in southern China. If you wanna get literal, it means "above the ocean". No matter what "shanghai" means in English, it will never change what it means in Chinese to speakers of Chinese.

In Hawaiian, "hapa" means part, or half, or it is slang for someone who is of partial Hawaiian descent. If "hapa" means "someone of partial Asian descent" in English, does that change what it means in Hawaiian to speakers of Hawaiian?

If it does, then how so?

Well in your example obviously Koreans changed a Korean word for Koreans to use.

Cunning is an English word, changed by Koreans for Koreans to use. While it means "to cheat on your significant other" in Korean, the meaning in English is still the original meaning.

These examples were used to show that even if another language borrows and changes a word, the word in the original language still has its original meaning.

So in the case of "hapa", if the English word "hapa" means "someone of part asian heritage" how does that change the meaning of "hapa" in the hawaiian language? If it doesn't then why are you so worried?

It can especially when it's outsiders doing the corrupting.

HOW????!?!??! How is anyone corrupting the Hawaiian language by using a word from it in English? To anyone who is a speaker of Hawaiian, that word will ALWAYS mean what it means in Hawaiian, when they speak Hawaiian.

If you don't know the answer to that then obviously you haven't read everything on the page which others do too. They tend to gloss over it and see what they want to see but it's all there.

Why can't you just explain it? Pretend I'm an idiot and I didn't see it after reading your site.

It's not MY goal. That's the problem. Many people see it as it being MY goal. MY opinions. MY page. Look at how many people have been involved with the site. This is due to the goal being about the culture. The goal is to "Malama" the language. Refer to the Hawaiian Dictionary by Mary Kawena Pukui for the definition of "malama(and yes... there is a Hawaiian Dictionary written by and for Hawaiians).

Note, "You" doesn't always mean You, the person who i am talking to and no one else, You also has a plural form. I meant the plural form. I'm not going to look up malama cuz it's too tedious. I'm sure it means something along the lines of "protect" or "preserve". I just don't see how Hawaiian language isn't being preserved if Hawaiian words are borrowed by English and the English definition is different from the original definition. I showed you examples above of A) English borrowing from another language, and the word in that original language still meaning what it originally meant, and B) A foreign language borrowing an English word, and the English word keeping its original meaning in English.

What I'd like you to explain to me is:

How is the original meaning of "hapa" in the Hawaiian language in any way distorted when speakers of Hawaiian use it when they speak in Hawaiian if English speakers borrow "hapa" and the meaning in English is different?

No matter what the loan word means in any language whatsoever, among the people who speak the language from which the word originated, when they speak that language, it will always mean what it means in that language.

Kalani,
If people had actually LOOKED at those sources... well... the breakdowns were in there. I swear... it's very irritating when people don't read :tongue:

Again, I'm sorry that I didn't understand what he was saying. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I just wanted him to explain something to me which I didn't understand. And do you really think it is realistic for me to go through a 52 page document so that I can understand one post?

I'll ask my bf who is half Korean to tell me the Korean word for "Cunning." He has a Korean dictionary so I'll find out what the Korean word for "Cunning" is from him and if this word has been changed by Koreans... for Koreans.

- Lana

No, not the Korean word that means cunning.

"keo-ning" (cunning) a loan word.

It's similar to other loan words like "keo-pi" (coffee) "hendu-pon" (handphone)

in the case of "keo-pi" it is what Koreans call coffee. That's a straight loan which the meaning is the same in both languages.

"hendu-pon" however is a word that means cellular phone. This is a loan word that while it would be incorrect in English, is made up of English base words, "hand" and "phone". English is in no way affected when Koreans use this English word incorrectly.

Lastly "keo-ning". Before you blast me for it not being in the dictionary, let me tell you that it's slang. (much like "hapa" is slang in English)

In Korean if you were to say that you did "keo-ning" (which is a noun, not an adj in Korean), by saying the following sentence "Nae ga keo-ning haeso", it does not mean, "I did cunning" or "I did something that was cunning". It means "I cheated on my significant other". However in English, cunning will always mean what it has always meant despite the fact that "keo-ning" has a different meaning in Korean.

Napoleon Chynamite

03-11-2004, 12:57 AM

There are plenty of loan words that adopt altered meanings in relation to the original word, I don't see how this case is any different. The Hawaiian term isn't "hijacked" or "raped" since 1) they still have it, therefore it's not hijacked or stolen and 2) the original meaning still remains intact for those communicating in Hawaiian and therefore is not raped. Just my opinion at a glance.

Some guy wrote this in response on the site:

The Korean language for example have words that are American based but the meaning is NEVER changed.

Obviously not true. I can probably think of more than a few Korean words borrowed from English that have clearly altered meaning. Nobody ever complains about that.

BeTheReds

03-11-2004, 01:19 AM

Some guy wrote this in response on the site:

Obviously not true. I can probably think of more than a few Korean words borrowed from English that have clearly altered meaning. Nobody ever complains about that.

I noticed that too.

maldito

03-11-2004, 07:44 AM

"Hapa" is a word borrowed by English from Hawiian.

Hapa is a borrowed word via Pidgin, aka Hawaii Creole English from Hawaiian. "Hapa" in Pidgin (for most speakers), the meaning pertained to a part Hawaiian person.

In Hawaiian, "hapa" means part, or half, or it is slang for someone who is of partial Hawaiian descent. If "hapa" means "someone of partial Asian descent" in English, does that change what it means in Hawaiian to speakers of Hawaiian?

If it does, then how so?
Not in the Hawaiian language. Also, I never use "hapa" pertaining to someone when I speak Hawaiian. In fact, I have never seen anything written using "Hapa" to describe a person, but rather used only as a quantative term.

But in Pidgin, people use it to refer to a person of mixed Hawaiian ancestry.

Another thing to note, is that the use of "hapa" is not a slang, at least not the way I see it. In my linguistic class, we were taught that "slang" was something unstable, a word that could be interpreted by various groups based on age, race/ethnicity, geographic locality, social class, etc. differently, and a term that could come and go as time passes. "Hapa" is not one of those, for one it has existed since either the late 1700s to early 1800s, and the way it is used, I have never seen any reference to it by these Hapa groups/clubs as "slang".

Again, I'm sorry that I didn't understand what he was saying. I didn't mean to sound condescending.
Yes, I understand. And also, I know you didn't call me a child, but my statement said that I am not a child, b/c it seems that you were treating me like one as if I didn't know how to read. I just need better glasses. *L*

I just wanted him to explain something to me which I didn't understand. And do you really think it is realistic for me to go through a 52 page document so that I can understand one post?
I only posted the link to the 2000 census as a reference, just as any book written will have or any research for that matter is based on facts. So I wanted to make sure that I cited facts regarding statistics, that's all. Not that I expected anyone to read through it, which I find a bit cofusing myself, but if anyone questioned the numbers I mentioned, it could've easily been referred within that document, that's all.

achtungbaby

03-11-2004, 09:28 AM

I'll ask my bf who is half Korean to tell me the Korean word for "Cunning." He has a Korean dictionary so I'll find out what the Korean word for "Cunning" is from him and if this word has been changed by Koreans... for Koreans.

Actually I believe the word was appropriated by the Hawaiians sometime in the late 20th century...and impressed upon the Koreans -- against their will -- soon after.

kboy75

03-11-2004, 09:38 AM

Geeez, what a long thread.

I'm not from Hawaii, but I have a lot of friends from Hawaii from college.

To put it simply:

hapa is a pidgin word. If you don't know what that is, look it up.

Many many words we use today start out as local or borrowed words. Take any linguistics class and you'll see that there are many.

A lot of my friends from Hawaii use the word hapa.

And to clarify:

"natives" are the indiginous people of the Hawaiian Polynesian islands.
"locals" are the non-native people that live in Hawaii.

Right? One of my English profs in college was a Japanese local who grew up in Hawaii and she made it a point to clarify this stuff to us.

maldito

03-11-2004, 09:49 AM

To put it simply:

hapa is a pidgin word. If you don't know what that is, look it up.
Hapa is used in pidgin that came from Hawaiian.

A lot of my friends from Hawaii use the word hapa.
What's their definition of the word?

And to clarify:

"natives" are the indiginous people of the Hawaiian Polynesian islands.
"locals" are the non-native people that live in Hawaii.

Right? One of my English profs in college was a Japanese local who grew up in Hawaii and she made it a point to clarify this stuff to us.

Not exactly true. Not sure if you interpreted wrong or not, b/c I highly doubt that your Japanese professor would call Hawaiians "native" since many people do not like that reference.

But, anyone of the islands are referred to as "local" w/o any ethnic reference. Same goes for the word "kama'aina".

Actually I believe the word was appropriated by the Hawaiians sometime in the late 20th century...and impressed upon the Koreans -- against their will -- soon after.
:biggrin: that's funny.

kitty

03-11-2004, 10:46 AM

I'm a little hesitant to jump into this discussion, but I don't really understand. People have posted a dictionary definition of the word 'hapa' that says it means 'half'... or 'biracial'.

And then they bring up the example of 'hapa hawaiian' meaning that someone is half-hawaiian

So... if people are speaking english, could they not be using the word 'hapa' as a Hawaiian word? i.e., the same way that we'll use the word 'raison d'etre' since we have no colloquial english verison of that word. For example, people will say that "making cheese was his raison d'etre".

I don't know that people are trying to appropriate Hawaiian culture so much as trying to find the best word that fit a desired meaning one hoped to communicate.

And if it is part of pidgin, than it became a part of another language -- i.e., there is always some give and take when it comes to languages because different languages often lack in certain word usages and concepts for many reasons. Japanese, for example, has appropriated many french, english, and other words to refer to things that they didn't have need to refer to historically: like, Beer (biru). Baseball (basuboru). Computer (komputaa).

Swahili too has many words that must be made up because the language never independently involved to creating a word for that concept. My college Swahili professor is part of a small team of Swahili professors nationwide who regularly make up words in Swahili to refer to modern concepts, like the internet and computers and cars.

I see the use of the word 'hapa' as being another instance where there is no English word that is as close to the desired meaning. I mean, you guys seem to be dissing the only other word that I have seen to refer to specifically half-Asian biracial people: Eurasian. Personally, I use 'biracial'.

oh, and i always thought that part of the meaning of 'hapa' has expanded to mean "Half Asian Pacific American".

haolegirl

03-11-2004, 11:37 AM

And if it is part of pidgin, than it became a part of another language -- i.e., there is always some give and take when it comes to languages because different languages often lack in certain word usages and concepts for many reasons. Japanese, for example, has appropriated many french, english, and other words to refer to things that they didn't have need to refer to historically: like, Beer (biru). Baseball (basuboru). Computer (komputaa).

I don't know how Maldito came to the conclusion that "hapa" is from pidgin because it's not. A look in the Hawaiian Dictionary will clear this up.

I want to know why you are so angry with me.

How can you tell that I'm angry? Are you basing it on my posts? Please don't read into my words. They are what they are and none of my words show any anger although that is what you may see.

It would be for your benefit if you would calm down, stay on topic, and explain your platform rather than jumping on the defensive from someone who isn't attacking you. I'm not attacking you, and no one else has so far.

Likewise please do not act like a colonizer and try to tell me what to do. Thanks.

I meant what are everyone else's thoughts about YOUR WEBPAGE, and the topic it discusses. Not my article.

I brought up your article to compare and contrast as part of my response.

Well, what I was talking about was how you, or whoever, posted responses from people at hapas.com and basically there is a whole section devoted to how stupid hapas.com is. Why is that important to your platform.

First of all, I was banned from hapas.com but I could still post there. I can go to that site whenever I wanted and Alvin S. the co-owner of the website has apologized to me. However I have not apologized to him but nowhere on the site do I devote to "how stupid hapas.com is." If you read it you would see quotes used as references.

I thought your concerns over the issue had some merit, that is why I created this thread. I was arguing for your side when no-one else would, and I invited you to join in. Why are you talking about an article I wrote on Eurasian Nation and calling me a hypocrite? I was only suggesting that if you would not negatively criticize specific other sites, and besmirch other members of that site, over personal issues, your platform would look stronger. It is only a suggestion.

We are not asking the colonizers to "support" us. Nor are we asking for permission nor for suggestions to gain the support of others. If we did that that would be on your terms... not ours. Therefore while you did bring the website to the attention of many which I appreciate by the way since ignorance is not always bliss... many Hawaiians are demanding that our language be respected. Many people are uncomfortable with that but it's not for others to decide. It's up to us what we want to do and what we don't want to do. That's not to say that we don't appreciate others supporting us because we do but it is not our goal.

Sorry for the mistake. Even so, giving air to flamewars on another site only shows that you (or someone else) has a personal grudge, and kind of cheapens what you are trying to do.

What flamewars? I have not addressed this website at another forum although I did mention online and do often that it isn't "right" when non-Hawaiians use a Hawaiian word to describe themselves. That's not a flame war. That's my opinion.

This is sad. This is the only issue that is totally blocking me from giving you my total support, and you can't answer this question. If you haven't noticed by now, I've never disagreed with you, right now I am straddling the fence, and this is the one thing that's keeping me from totally joining you. Please try to answer this question.

See above

It was an example where a word was borrowed from one language and the meaning was changed. The original word still has the original meaning. You don't care because you're not Japanese.. okay fair enough.

It was not "borrowed." It was "stolen."

"Hapa" is a word borrowed by English from Hawiian.

Some of these Hawaiians were part English. They used it to describe the children of these unions.

In Hawaiian, "hapa" means part, or half, or it is slang for someone who is of partial Hawaiian descent. If "hapa" means "someone of partial Asian descent" in English, does that change what it means in Hawaiian to speakers of Hawaiian?

Please cite the dictionary that defines "hapa" to mean "someone of partial Asian descent" in English.

If it does, then how so?

In English it does NOT mean "someone of partial Asian descent." Look in Websters etc. It's not in there.

Cunning is an English word, changed by Koreans for Koreans to use. While it means "to cheat on your significant other" in Korean, the meaning in English is still the original meaning.

These examples were used to show that even if another language borrows and changes a word, the word in the original language still has its original meaning.

It was the Koreans who changed their language.

So in the case of "hapa", if the English word "hapa" means "someone of part asian heritage" how does that change the meaning of "hapa" in the hawaiian language? If it doesn't then why are you so worried?

See above

HOW????!?!??! How is anyone corrupting the Hawaiian language by using a word from it in English? To anyone who is a speaker of Hawaiian, that word will ALWAYS mean what it means in Hawaiian, when they speak Hawaiian.

For a better understanding I suggest you read some of our 'olelo no'eau.

Why can't you just explain it? Pretend I'm an idiot and I didn't see it after reading your site.

I don't/won't insult people's intelligence that's why.

Note, "You" doesn't always mean You, the person who i am talking to and no one else, You also has a plural form. I meant the plural form. I'm not going to look up malama cuz it's too tedious. I'm sure it means something along the lines of "protect" or "preserve".

Yes... and it means a whole lot more.

I just don't see how Hawaiian language isn't being preserved if Hawaiian words are borrowed by English and the English definition is different from the original definition. I showed you examples above of A) English borrowing from another language, and the word in that original language still meaning what it originally meant, and B) A foreign language borrowing an English word, and the English word keeping its original meaning in English.

What I'd like you to explain to me is:

How is the original meaning of "hapa" in the Hawaiian language in any way distorted when speakers of Hawaiian use it when they speak in Hawaiian if English speakers borrow "hapa" and the meaning in English is different?

1. It's not in the English dictionary. There are only "online" definitions.
2. When a non-Hawaiian calls themselves "hapa," It means "I am Hawaiian" and the non-Hawaiian is not Hawaiian.

No matter what the loan word means in any language whatsoever, among the people who speak the language from which the word originated, when they speak that language, it will always mean what it means in that language.

I agree... and that is why many Hawaiians have a problem with non-Hawaiians co-opting a word from our language.

Again, I'm sorry that I didn't understand what he was saying. I didn't mean to sound condescending. I just wanted him to explain something to me which I didn't understand. And do you really think it is realistic for me to go through a 52 page document so that I can understand one post?

It wasn't that difficult to open the document and read it.

No, not the Korean word that means cunning.

"keo-ning" (cunning) a loan word.

It's similar to other loan words like "keo-pi" (coffee) "hendu-pon" (handphone)

in the case of "keo-pi" it is what Koreans call coffee. That's a straight loan which the meaning is the same in both languages.

"hendu-pon" however is a word that means cellular phone. This is a loan word that while it would be incorrect in English, is made up of English base words, "hand" and "phone". English is in no way affected when Koreans use this English word incorrectly.

Lastly "keo-ning". Before you blast me for it not being in the dictionary, let me tell you that it's slang. (much like "hapa" is slang in English)

In Korean if you were to say that you did "keo-ning" (which is a noun, not an adj in Korean), by saying the following sentence "Nae ga keo-ning haeso", it does not mean, "I did cunning" or "I did something that was cunning". It means "I cheated on my significant other". However in English, cunning will always mean what it has always meant despite the fact that "keo-ning" has a different meaning in Korean.

Yeah... Koreans put these words into their dictionary.

rice cracker

03-11-2004, 11:49 AM

Let's keep it cordial, no need for condescension. In fact, dismissing valid questions and leaving open ended answers for our own interpretation does not help your cause. I'm in the middle on this one, and willing to change my stance on using the word as I do, but I'm seriously not getting any real reason why using the word hapa as an english word meaning part asian is the same as stealing, hijacking, or raping the Hawaiian language. No rebuttal I've seen is satisfactory as to why we need to stop using the word, and how it is damaging to others. It also seems to me that the opposition to using hapa is less logical, and is almost vindictively retalitory towards simple questions that require simple answers.

Napoleon Chynamite

03-11-2004, 11:49 AM

Er...I'm kinda confused as to what's going on. HaoleGirl, I don't care if you insult my intelligence, why don't you just explain your whole argument and reasoning because I'm not gonna go to another site and take the time to read all of it in great detail. And I don't understand what you mean when you emphasize that "Koreans changed their language" when borrowing words from English. Of course Koreans changed it. What's your point? Just like how if Americans (or Californians) borrow the word 'hapa', it's the Californians changing their language. Bottom line is I still don't understand how the Hawaiian term 'hapa' is getting "hijacked" or "raped" seeing as how it still remains intact to all who actually care about what the original Hawaiian term means, which would be, native speakers or students of the Hawaiian language. And referring to Eugene as 'acting like a colonizer' simply because he was giving you advice on how to conduct yourself on a forum that HE moderates is out of line. This comment alone indicates to your animosity and indignance.

maldito

03-11-2004, 11:56 AM

I don't know how Maldito came to the conclusion that "hapa" is from pidgin because it's not. A look in the Hawaiian Dictionary will clear this up.
Easy. Not many people speak Hawaiian. We have heard the term Hapa Haole, not from hearing it spoken in the Hawaiian language as in " aia kela hapa haole ma 'o...." but rather something spoken in pidgin which came from Hawaiian.

I see the use of the word 'hapa' as being another instance where there is no English word that is as close to the desired meaning. I mean, you guys seem to be dissing the only other word that I have seen to refer to specifically half-Asian biracial people: Eurasian. Personally, I use 'biracial'.

But then any word could be used too if you put it that way. Mestizo could be used too, a word that I personally don't care for.

And since the commonality is one of Asian ancestry, a word from an Asian language would probably be better.

haolegirl

03-11-2004, 12:03 PM

Easy. Not many people speak Hawaiian. We have heard the term Hapa Haole, not from hearing it spoken in the Hawaiian language as in " aia kela hapa haole ma 'o...." but rather something spoken in pidgin which came from Hawaiian.

Oh okay but pidgin is the synthesis of different languages in the islands but in the dictionary "hapa" is defined. Therefore, "Hapa" is a Hawaiian word. That's why I was wondering how you could state that "hapa" comes from pidgin yet people who speak pidgin have used "hapa" in their speech. That doesn't mean that it's a word from pidgin though because pidgin is a synthesis of languages... so... how can? *LOL* :tongue:

I just noticed that I was mixing English with pidgin but I'm English too so there is no -co-opting of anything *LOL* Anyway... damn that's a long run on sentence! :)

And since the commonality is one of Asian ancestry, a word from an Asian language would probably be better.

Exactly... why not something like "Metisian" meaning "Metis" from the Latin "Mixticius" and "Asian."

Napoleon Chynamite

03-11-2004, 12:09 PM

And since the commonality is one of Asian ancestry, a word from an Asian language would probably be better.

Exactly... why not something like "Metisian" meaning "Metis" from the Latin "Mixticius" and "Asian."

Erm..."Asian" is not a word from an Asian language. But maybe that's beside the point here.

maldito

03-11-2004, 12:35 PM

Oh okay but pidgin is the synthesis of different languages in the islands but in the dictionary "hapa" is defined. Therefore, "Hapa" is a Hawaiian word. That's why I was wondering how you could state that "hapa" comes from pidgin yet people who speak pidgin have used "hapa" in their speech. That doesn't mean that it's a word from pidgin though because pidgin is a synthesis of languages... so... how can? *LOL* :tongue:

I just noticed that I was mixing English with pidgin but I'm English too so there is no -co-opting of anything *LOL* Anyway... damn that's a long run on sentence! :)

I should've clarified that HAPA is Hawaiian, but it was used in PIDGIN and from there it made it's way to California. :biggrin:

kimpossible

03-11-2004, 04:48 PM

We are not asking the colonizers to "support" us. Nor are we asking for permission nor for suggestions to gain the support of others. If we did that that would be on your terms... not ours. Therefore while you did bring the website to the attention of many which I appreciate by the way since ignorance is not always bliss... many Hawaiians are demanding that our language be respected.

I'm not Japanese. I'm Chinese.

I have a quick question that I'm posing just because I was confused by the above. Are you identifying as Hawaiian or Chinese? A little off topic but I was curious.

BeTheReds

03-11-2004, 05:37 PM

Haolegirl, you're still not answering anything. I'm not gonna engage you in a flamewar. Calm down and please try to answer the following questions. I'll try to be less complicated.

1. If "hapa" means something in Hawaiian, and something else in English, how is the original meaning in Hawaiian in any way altered.

2. Why is it your belief that when English borrows a word from another language that it is stolen, but when another languaeg borrows from English, Korean taking cunning for example, it's Koreans changing their own language. By English using the word "hapa", isn't that an example of English speakers chaning their own language?

3. If you(pl.) said that you don't want English speakers to stop using the word hapa, then what is it that you DO want?

In Hawaiian, "hapa" means part, or half, or it is slang for someone who is of partial Hawaiian descent. If "hapa" means "someone of partial Asian descent" in English, does that change what it means in Hawaiian to speakers of Hawaiian?

If it does, then how so?

Not in the Hawaiian language. Also, I never use "hapa" pertaining to someone when I speak Hawaiian. In fact, I have never seen anything written using "Hapa" to describe a person, but rather used only as a quantative term.

But in Pidgin, people use it to refer to a person of mixed Hawaiian ancestry.

Another thing to note, is that the use of "hapa" is not a slang, at least not the way I see it. In my linguistic class, we were taught that "slang" was something unstable, a word that could be interpreted by various groups based on age, race/ethnicity, geographic locality, social class, etc. differently, and a term that could come and go as time passes. "Hapa" is not one of those, for one it has existed since either the late 1700s to early 1800s, and the way it is used, I have never seen any reference to it by these Hapa groups/clubs as "slang".

Thanks for educating me. I don't want to sound condescending, but can you answer the question I asked please? I'll rephrase it so that I don't have any mistaken meanings in there.

Here is the question:

If "hapa" has a certain meaning in one language (Hawaiian or pidgin), why can't it have another meaning in English? Does it having another meaning in English change its meaning in the original language? If yes, then how so?

maldito

03-11-2004, 06:10 PM

If "hapa" has a certain meaning in one language (Hawaiian or pidgin), why can't it have another meaning in English? Does it having another meaning in English change its meaning in the original language? If yes, then how so?
In actuality no. I could use a word like "yobo" and make it out to mean Korean. :biggrin: I say that only b/c in hawaii, they've referred to Koreans as "yobos". I guess that would be the same as "hapa".

Although we're free to use any word from any language to mean anything we'd want, the issue boils down to one thing, and that is cultural appropriation. Something of the Hawaiian culture is taken (nothing new really) and used for themselves.

Someone mentioned "hapa" coming from English's "half", and that Hawaiians have done the same. The word was Hawaiianized. Not necessarily kept it's true form (half) but altered according to the Hawaiians' phonetic system.

But there's a difference when we're talking about a language that was suppressed by another. The number of Hawaiian speakers are much fewer than English, which is certainly understandable being that native speakers of English were colonizers of native speakers of Hawaiian. But even in the Hawaiian government up until 1898 were they using both Hawaiian and English. The constitutions were written up in English, but the mode of communication seems to be both but mostly in English among cabinet members who were non Hawaii citizens.

When 1898 came around, after the governement was overthrown (1893), they banned Hawaiian in schools as a medium of speech, which was the beginning of the end of the culture. Since then, the amount of Hawaiian speakers fell drastically.

Anyway, i think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I just wanted to point out how important the language is in contrast to English, and why the issue of Hawaiian words being used in English to mean something different (such as "kahuna") is a sensitive issue to many Hawaiians as well as non-Hawaiians.

Are you identifying as Hawaiian or Chinese? A little off topic but I was curious.

In Hawaii, many people don't usually identify themselves as one ethnicity. If asked, they'll say exactly what they are. I believe HAOLEGIRL was using the appropriate ethnicity which seems to be similar to what the person stated, something about Japanese? I could be wrong about that, but that was my observation.

haolegirl

03-11-2004, 06:23 PM

Erm..."Asian" is not a word from an Asian language. But maybe that's beside the point here.

Good point... but many Asians are part white too.

I have a quick question that I'm posing just because I was confused by the above. Are you identifying as Hawaiian or Chinese? A little off topic but I was curious.

Actually like many people from Hawai'i who are mixed... we usually say, "I'm ______, _________, ___________" etc. I identify myself as English, Hawaiian, Chinese, and Portuguese.

BeTheReds

03-11-2004, 06:37 PM

In actuality no. I could use a word like "yobo" and make it out to mean Korean. :biggrin: I say that only b/c in hawaii, they've referred to Koreans as "yobos". I guess that would be the same as "hapa".

Well yes, but to Koreans who speak Korean, they'll always refer to themselves as uri-nara-saram-dul, and yobo will always mean something that spouses call each other. Korean is not going to go thru any changes because of this, and it isn't stealing or anything.

Although we're free to use any word from any language to mean anything we'd want, the issue boils down to one thing, and that is cultural appropriation. Something of the Hawaiian culture is taken (nothing new really) and used for themselves.

How is this a bad thing?

Someone mentioned "hapa" coming from English's "half", and that Hawaiians have done the same. The word was Hawaiianized. Not necessarily kept it's true form (half) but altered according to the Hawaiians' phonetic system.

Wait, so people are angry about a loan word based on a loan word?

But there's a difference when we're talking about a language that was suppressed by another. The number of Hawaiian speakers are much fewer than English, which is certainly understandable being that native speakers of English were colonizers of native speakers of Hawaiian. But even in the Hawaiian government up until 1898 were they using both Hawaiian and English. The constitutions were written up in English, but the mode of communication seems to be both but mostly in English among cabinet members who were non Hawaii citizens.

When 1898 came around, after the governement was overthrown (1893), they banned Hawaiian in schools as a medium of speech, which was the beginning of the end of the culture. Since then, the amount of Hawaiian speakers fell drastically.

Anyway, i think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I just wanted to point out how important the language is in contrast to English, and why the issue of Hawaiian words being used in English to mean something different (such as "kahuna") is a sensitive issue to many Hawaiians as well as non-Hawaiians.

Now we're getting somewhere. But can you explain please why they are so sensitive about it? Shouldn't people instead focus on native Hawaiian education and preservation of the language within its own context rather than trying to regulate how loan words are used?

kuilong

03-11-2004, 07:10 PM

1. It's not in the English dictionary. There are only "online" definitions.
2. When a non-Hawaiian calls themselves "hapa," It means "I am Hawaiian" and the non-Hawaiian is not Hawaiian.

I think you're making the common error about descriptivism vs. prescriptivism. To put it more simply, you're mixing up cause and effect.

Even more simply: A does not mean B because it's in the dictionary. It's in the dictionary because A means B. A would mean B even if it weren't in the dictionary. Meaning is independent of what's in a dictionary. I suspect most dictionaries don't list it because it's only used in a few, limited contexts (university, the internet, Californians, and so on).

You might be wondering what meaning does depend on? Meaning is determined by how people understand a word -- to several Californians, 'hapa' means 'half-Asian half-White'. Whether or not it's in any dictionary, that is what hapa means in that context. If you want to learn more about the descriptive nature of definitions, an introductory sociolinguistics class at any university would provide more information on this.

P.S. IIRC, when someone (I can't remember who) used the term "borrowing", they meant it in the linguistic sense where a word from another language becomes used by another language. This is objectively true in the case of "hapa", and it's not making any moral judgements, so there's no need to oppose its use.

kimpossible

03-11-2004, 07:12 PM

My official personal statement on this issue. This is not an issuance from Yellowworld.org or any of its members but myself.

Lana, I am not persuaded by your arguments per se, nor your website. I am moved to change my screen name and alter my personal usage of the term hapa to reflect its heritage simply because I know *now* that there are those who feel a negative impact from its use. I came across the term only as an adult once I moved to the West Coast when a Hawaiian told me it was a much better and more widely accepted way to identify myself as a mixed blooded Asian. I was born and grew up on the East Coast so this was news to me.

That's all it really took for me to rethink the usage. Simply being correctly informed of a negative impact on another when I had been previously operating under false information that hapa was actually more appropriate. I'm on board with the idea itself.

Having said that, you are very unpleasant to interact with in online conversations and attack without thought. I've heard you out, I've looked through the site, I've taken the core message to heart and readily made the decision to change. I plan on changing my screen name shortly as a personal decision.

I did not rape, I did not hijack: I was supplied with false information and gladly accept change in light of new knowledge. I am not an elitist Eurasian and I am certainly not a colonist. The core message from realhapas or associated awareness of the heritage of the Hawaiian hapa identity is not unsavory or unwelcome: I'm glad I was eventually correctly informed that all is not settled with the term hapa and the designation is contested.

Again, I simply did not know before now. You would have gotten the same reaction out of me if you had said with decorum "Your usage is hurting someone. Embracing change would help someone else." I offer to change my usage of hapa as a personal identifier.

You, your tone and interface with you, not the message itself, is the turn-off. Thank you in absolute terms for raising awareness, I sure don't want to be responsible for infringing on the identity of another whether actual or possible, but you avoid answering direct questions that could expand the very awareness you are trying to raise and you're rather unnecessarily rude on top of it.

I wish this could have gone down differently. Best to you despite our differences and I hope you remember somewhere down the road that you don't always have to go on the offensive in order for someone to hear you out.

haolegirl

03-11-2004, 07:29 PM

Haolegirl, you're still not answering anything. I'm not gonna engage you in a flamewar. Calm down and please try to answer the following questions. I'll try to be less complicated.

I am calm. I don't know why you think I'm not. Perhaps it's because I'm female and I type my mind. I don't really know but I am calm.

1. If "hapa" means something in Hawaiian, and something else in English, how is the original meaning in Hawaiian in any way altered.

I've already answered this. There is no definition in the English dictionary so it's not an English word because it is not defined as such.

2. Why is it your belief that when English borrows a word from another language that it is stolen, but when another languaeg borrows from English, Korean taking cunning for example, it's Koreans changing their own language. By English using the word "hapa", isn't that an example of English speakers chaning their own language?

"When English borrows a word from another language it is stolen." -> Not unless the linguists of the respective language incorporates it with the people like with native people.

"Korean taking cunning for example, it's Koreans changing their own language. By English using the word "hapa", isn't that an example of English speakers chaning their own language?" -> No because like I've stated before... "hapa" is not in their dictionary but "half" is.

3. If you(pl.) said that you don't want English speakers to stop using the word hapa, then what is it that you DO want?

I've never stated that I don't know english speakers to stop using the word "hapa." Personally I want people to respect our culture and our language as I respect the Korean culture and language where women are subservient to men... where a Korean man tells another Korean man to "calm me down." I respect that part of the Korean culture. Thus I ask the same for non-Hawaiians to respect the Hawaiian culture and our language too.

Wait, so people are angry about a loan word based on a loan word?

Eugene,
At the time Hawaiians were procreating with some missionaries and eventually the products of such unions who were part Hawaiian and part Caucasian used a Caucasian word and adapted it to a Hawaiian word. That is Hawaiians of Caucasian descent created a word for them to use to describe these people of mixed Hawaiian and Caucasian descent. Therefore it's not a "loan" word. These people were part Caucasian. Also it should be noted that Hawaiians have a Hawaiian dictionary and many Hawaiians who are part haole entered words that are haole in origin and put them in the Hawaiian dictionary.

I think you're making the common error about descriptivism vs. prescriptivism. To put it more simply, you're mixing up cause and effect.

Even more simply: A does not mean B because it's in the dictionary. It's in the dictionary because A means B. A would mean B even if it weren't in the dictionary. Meaning is independent of what's in a dictionary. I suspect most dictionaries don't list it because it's only used in a few, limited contexts (university, the internet, Californians, and so on).

No.. Eugene asked this:

"How is the original meaning of "hapa" in the Hawaiian language in any way distorted when speakers of Hawaiian use it when they speak in Hawaiian if English speakers borrow "hapa" and the meaning in English is different?"

My response consisted of two parts. One being that there is no meaning in English. Meaning there is no meaning in the English dictionary. In the second part I was addressing how the meaning in Hawaiian.

You might be wondering what meaning does depend on? Meaning is determined by how people understand a word -- to several Californians, 'hapa' means 'half-Asian half-White'. Whether or not it's in any dictionary, that is what hapa means in that context. If you want to learn more about the descriptive nature of definitions, an introductory sociolinguistics class at any university would provide more information on this.

Thanks but I have studied and graduated at the University of Washington and one thing that they teach us there is so refer to the dictionaries to define words in the English language.

P.S. IIRC, when someone (I can't remember who) used the term "borrowing", they meant it in the linguistic sense where a word from another language becomes used by another language. This is objectively true in the case of "hapa", and it's not making any moral judgements, so there's no need to oppose its use.

Yes but professors will also tell you to refer to the dictionary to define words. Like I've stated before... "Look it up in the dictionary. It's not there."

BeTheReds

03-11-2004, 07:37 PM

Okay, I give up.

It's obvious that you aren't interested in explaining what you're all about, you can't answer simple questions, and you like to make everything personal. If there really are people on your side of the argument, you are hurting them by being on their side.

This is a clear and perfect explanation as to why this discussion has deteriorated:

Hey, maybe you can answer this question... Just because hapa means one thing in Hawaiian, why can't it mean something else in English?

No comment

If you can't answer that, then we really have nothing to talk about, do we?

Kuilong, I urge you to leave her alone. This will be too frustrating, and it's really not worth it.

haolegirl

03-11-2004, 07:43 PM

My official personal statement on this issue. This is not an issuance from Yellowworld.org or any of its members but myself.

Lana, I am not persuaded by your arguments per se, nor your website. I am moved to change my screen name and alter my personal usage of the term hapa to reflect its heritage simply because I know *now* that there are those who feel a negative impact from its use. I came across the term only as an adult once I moved to the West Coast when a Hawaiian told me it was a much better and more widely accepted way to identify myself as a mixed blooded Asian. I was born and grew up on the East Coast so this was news to me.

That's all it really took for me to rethink the usage. Simply being correctly informed of a negative impact on another when I had been previously operating under false information that hapa was actually more appropriate. I'm on board with the idea itself.

That's understandable. Also on the East Coast not many people are aware of the word "hapa."

Having said that, you are very unpleasant to interact with in online conversations and attack without thought. I've heard you out, I've looked through the site, I've taken the core message to heart and readily made the decision to change. I plan on changing my screen name shortly as a personal decision.

I am not "unpleasant to interact with in online conversations and attack without thought." However, my opinions and the webpage which I have coded are looked at as an attack but alot of thought was put into this project and so far I have the support of many Hawaiians.

I did not rape, I did not hijack: I was supplied with false information and gladly accept change in light of new knowledge. I am not an elitist Eurasian and I am certainly not a colonist. The core message from realhapas or associated awareness of the heritage of the Hawaiian hapa identity is not unsavory or unwelcome: I'm glad I was eventually correctly informed that all is not settled with the term hapa and the designation is contested.

When I coded the site it was not my intention to tell people what to do or how to think. The purpose was to present Hawaiian voices but there are many people who read it and feel personally offended. All I can say is... "Imagine how Hawaiians feel."

Again, I simply did not know before now. You would have gotten the same reaction out of me if you had said with decorum "Your usage is hurting someone. Embracing change would help someone else." I offer to change my usage of hapa as a personal identifier.{/quote]

Actually for over two years I have been stating something similar to that to no avail. Many people don't care nor do some care now but now that the webpage is up which btw is the only webpage created and designed by a Hawaiian that exposes Hawaiian voices about the Hawaiian word, "hapa."

[quoye]You, your tone and interface with you, not the message itself, is the turn-off.

This is not new to me. Many people would not have a problem with a man stating the same thing like if it were my Korean boyfriend because he is a man but since there is a woman and her pic associated with the site then many have a problem with that. In the Chinese culture women are subservient to men but I am also Hawaiian where women are very vocal and were powerful l