APA women - choosing between race and sex

[lena99]

Do you often feel that you have to choose loyalites between race and sex? Personally, I was raised in an environment of family, church members, community where women's issues where secondary to race issues. Ie. once racism is 'solved' then women's issues could be 'addressed'. Since, I am African American I wonder if Asian American women face similar pressure.

Lena99

[pikachupacabra]

Bump


I've always wondered about this, and in a lot of the AA movements at my school, a lot of the males, while totally knowledgeable in what injustices had been struck againsts APAs, still treated a lot of women like dirt, or acted like they were only playthings/didn't respect their opinions. I thought it took a lot of balls to be a female AA activist sometimes at my school because of all the shit sometimes. I once did hosted a workshop on sexism and a lot of the guys were just totally laughing and giggling over shit while the women were steaming and just getting pissy. I mean, you'd think that once you experienced any form of prejudice/stereotyping you'd be able to apply it to someone else, no?

[nola]

Do you often feel that you have to choose loyalites between race and sex? Personally, I was raised in an environment of family, church members, community where women's issues where secondary to race issues. Ie. once racism is 'solved' then women's issues could be 'addressed'. Since, I am African American I wonder if Asian American women face similar pressure.

Lena99How do you feel about this and how have you dealt with it?

[asvenus]

i wanted to answer this before but didnt know how to put what i felt or had experienced into typed words...

i still dont really.
it annoys me that as women 'of colour' often we are forced into making this kind of 'choice'..personally it makes me feel like someone with a severe case of split personality..
within asian communities, i think, due to the emphasis placed on maintaining family honour and not airing out dirty laundry, you are made to feel like you should place womens issues secondary or not show outside communities that there is even a 'problem'...this is so ingrained that even i sometimes bristle when non-asians make comments (even if theyre true) about injustices asian women may face, and i feel as though i should defend my culture etc...
within the black community, 'feminist' is often used as an alternative word for 'lesbian' which kinda gives an idea of how much importance is placed on 'womens issues'...also i find that whenever they talk about removing the 'white hand of oppression', the maleness of this hand is rarely mentioned, or even how black men treat black women.

i hate to use a cliche but being a woman 'of colour' does make you feel like you have a 'double burden' in terms of stereotypes and discrimination..its just up to us to keep our voices loud and clear....personally i try not to get too caught up or divide the race/sex agenda within myself, i feel that it cannot or should not be done as it reduces you into 'parts' of a person which does not allow you to articulate your experience accurately. i hate this kind of thing particularly as someone who is mixed, as it creates an even more pronounced feeling of having to 'choose' between what you are going to be..'black/asian/woman'..luckily ive been raised to reject anyone who suggests im not all 3..with an ass kickin if necessary :wink:

[nola]

I've always wondered about this, and in a lot of the AA movements at my school, a lot of the males, while totally knowledgeable in what injustices had been struck againsts APAs, still treated a lot of women like dirt, or acted like they were only playthings/didn't respect their opinions. I thought it took a lot of balls to be a female AA activist sometimes at my school because of all the shit sometimes. I once did hosted a workshop on sexism and a lot of the guys were just totally laughing and giggling over shit while the women were steaming and just getting pissy. I mean, you'd think that once you experienced any form of prejudice/stereotyping you'd be able to apply it to someone else, no?Yes AA men IRL giggle or make fun of you when you mention sexism. I wonder if it's too early in the movement to talk about sexism. The black movement has been around for decades and they just started talking about women's movement within the movement but I think it's wrong. I mean, who's the foundation and backbone of both societies and movements? Societies and movements are built on women's backs and I don't think either movement should treat women like shit. But they do.

[asvenus]

^^so true...

[kasia]

Yes AA men IRL giggle or make fun of you when you mention sexism. I wonder if it's too early in the movement to talk about sexism.

then you're implicitly saying that race issues should come before gender issues, correct? but really, when *would* be the proper time? and why should race issues take priority? the old boys' club is still so in existence in, at least, the chinese community, and i think also in the criminal law community (which is of signficance to me, but maybe not others). but imagine being a female criminal law attorney - asian, no less - and having to work amongst asian male criminal law attorneys who don't give you the support or encouragement that younger asian male criminal law attorneys are getting for the sole fact that they are male...

that's just one example of many where we are discriminated against within our own community because we are women. sexual harassment runs rampant, stereotypes of who we are and what we are capable of, judgments passed when we are not married by a certain age, beliefs of what appropriate career paths are for us, disrespect by men in our community for asian female political figures, etc. etc.

in light of all of this, why shouldn't gender issues also be a priority?

[nola]

That's a rhetorical question and one that I obviously don't need to answer. It's implicit in peoples' actions that gender doesn't matter in people of color's social movements.

[kasia]

It's implicit in peoples' actions that gender doesn't matter in people of color's social movements.

i wouldn't say it doesn't matter or isn't addressed *at all* though, right? i'm not saying you're wrong, but would you mind articulating some examples so we can get a clearer idea of what you're getting at?

[nola]

It has taken extreme effort on the part of women in AA and the black movement to bring awareness to and to promote women's issues and in both movements men still laugh at you if you mention them. It's gotten alot better but it's still a joke to them. IRL not on forums such as YW. But I often think if I were a man or white would I care about women or POC issues? No. I'd be really sympathetic and open but I wouldn't speak up as much about it. It's up to women and POC to speak for themselves but we need men and whites to at least try and to make things happen. It's a problem when men and whites perpetuate sexism and racism by siding with it or not speaking up against it.

[YuheiCarreau]

It seems like most of you aren't getting the right kind of suport from AA men. Is there a group you feel does suport you? Do you find that you get more support from AA women your own age than your mothers, for example? What about women who are also racial minorities? White women? Typically I've found that a White feminist is a White person first and a feminist second, so I sometimes find that I agree with their rhetoric, but not their tone...

Not to derail the conversation, but I sometimes wonder what my perspective on feminism would be like if I didn't have a White mother. Supposedly the combination of a Japanese man (think mysoginistic) and a White American woman (think feminist the way Rush Limbaugh would say the word) is the worst of both worlds, so I wonder if my attitudes about women and feminism come from my mother, or having three sisters, or somewhere else.

[Shuriken]

There's another issue, one I didn't see mentioned in any explicit way: When a woman of color in a Western culture exposes sexism or patriarchy within her own community, she is sometimes accused of trying to get on good terms with the dominant white society.

A prime example is Maxine Hong Kingston's book The Woman Warrior, which several critics said vivisected Chinese patriarchy in order to make white American patriarchy look good in comparison. The same charge was leveled at the film version of The Joy Luck Club and the movie Double Happiness. In an African American context, the same was said about The Color Purple. Personally, I think that this criticism, while not without some value, greatly oversimplifies some intriguing works — especially Kingston's book, which she balances with the male-centered companion tome China Men. Still, I wonder if much of the larger American society sees the richness of these efforts, or if it consumes them in the shallow way that their critics charge.

Similarly, some male-oriented outlets, such as Frank Chin's call for a macho "heroic" Asian American literary tradition and GoldSea.com's fixation on how Asian men may be perceived in traditionally "masculine" terms, seem especially concerned with ending racism — without much apparent concern for ending sexism. It's as though these creators merely want to see Asian men enjoying the same sexist privileges in American society that white men do now. Given this, I can understand how some women of color might be cynical of championing non-white masculinity in the name of racial equality.

I think that ending sexism and ending racism are part of the same effort. So, more must be done beyond merely criticizing non-white patriarchy or merely celebrating the traditional virility of men of color. But at the same time, it's difficult to do one without undercutting the other.

I can understand how women in this situation must feel themselves in a bind. Would more women want to discuss this issue specifically in terms of how struggling against Asian sexism may be appropriated by the white American mainstream?

[nola]

Bitching about sexism in AA culture has won me nothing in the mainstream culture. Nothing. Not one female or male friend, listener, any kind of attention among the mainstream. If I yell about it which is about 1/20 of what I yell about no one has ever paid a second of attention to it. They listen, think it's different or unusual and forget it immediately. Most don't know what I'm talking about at all and think I'm crazy. It hasn't gotten me any special favors and in fact scares people off. They think it's sad I feel this way and move on.

[kasia]

i received some great advice, on the other hand, from an asian american female politician from san francisco. i'm ashamed to admit that i can't recall her name or position, but she sat on the head of this one committee, and was on a panel of speakers with judge lillian sing. anyhow, she immediately knew what i was talking about when i approached her last summer, and she said this. she's the head of a committee where she's the only female and the only asian. the rest of the committee are older caucasian males. she said that, when she holds her meetings, she sits at the head of the table and leads the meetings because that is her job. she has also run campaigns where she has had to meet with the different chinese associations comprised of older chinese men and only some chinese women. she's young - about 40 - but she told me that when she walks in, she similarly takes a seat at the head of the table and begins the discussion - with no attention paid to their expectations of what a young chinese woman should be or any unncessary deference. she said to just feel confident in who i am and what i am doing, and if they have a problem with that, then that is their own problem to deal with.

i know that's very simple advice, but to hear it from somebody who has actually done it before was very inspiring.

[asvenus]

I dont agree that a White feminist is a white person first and a feminist second because white people are not 'racialised' in the same way POC are, there is no tension in terms of racial identity because 'white' is still seen as above the 'colour' radar...on most issues i cant really identify with alot of them as i live with two identities...a 'POC' and a woman, most white feminists cant identify or understand that as its not something they have to deal with...
Im lucky in that many of the women around me are feminists and/or strong women 'of colour' so ive always had support and role models to look upto...
often asian/black women ni the UK are made to feel guilty for highlighting any negative practices within their own community as traitorous but then are criticised for wanting or needing support from the males in their communities by white feminists..personally i think the term feminist is getting redundant even moreso for women of colour...we need to define ourselves and name ourselves with a term that describes our experience as women who face discrimination on basis of race and gender...

[YuheiCarreau]

I dont agree that a White feminist is a white person first and a feminist second because white people are not 'racialised' in the same way POC are, there is no tension in terms of racial identity because 'white' is still seen as above the 'colour' radar...on most issues i cant really identify with alot of them as i live with two identities...a 'POC' and a woman, most white feminists cant identify or understand that as its not something they have to deal with...

I think White people have a very strong racial identity, but it's one that they're completely unaware of. So much of what is considered "all-American" and "normal" really only applies to Whites, but because they don't have a dominant race/culture flung in their faces all the time they don't realize it.

Im lucky in that many of the women around me are feminists and/or strong women 'of colour' so ive always had support and role models to look upto...
often asian/black women ni the UK are made to feel guilty for highlighting any negative practices within their own community as traitorous but then are criticised for wanting or needing support from the males in their communities by white feminists..personally i think the term feminist is getting redundant even moreso for women of colour...we need to define ourselves and name ourselves with a term that describes our experience as women who face discrimination on basis of race and gender...

How do you feel about White women criticizing mysoginistic practices in non-White cultures? I remember in my Violence Against Women class, we read an article that made a big deal about the issue of bride-burning in India, and it made me kind of uncomfortable because it made it seem like a rampant epidemic, and also like something that most Indian men were totally fine with.

[asvenus]

from my first post..within asian communities, i think, due to the emphasis placed on maintaining family honour and not airing out dirty laundry, you are made to feel like you should place womens issues secondary or not show outside communities that there is even a 'problem'...this is so ingrained that even i sometimes bristle when non-asians make comments (even if theyre true) about injustices asian women may face, and i feel as though i should defend my culture etc...
because of how we are racialised and the dominance position of white people, white feminists often fail to comment on anything positive about nonwhite communities and adopt the paternalistic attitude of many white men in thinking they are the 'liberators' of all nonwhite women, hence the MASSIVE outcry against FGM but the passive attitude towards breast implants etc...they often fail to acknowledge the issues of white privelege and how they benefit from this, preferring instead to adopt the 'oppressed' role...there are many white feminists who proffer amazing and highly intelligent debate on patriarchy and phallocentrism but for the most part nonwhite feminist discourse and activity is seen as an afterthought or something that threatens the status quo on what 'feminism' is about....how often do you hear white women talking about the sexualisation/exotification of black & asian women or the strength of asian women around the globe or even the leadership of nonwhite women around the globe throughout history? these subjects rarely fit into accepted thought on what nonwhite people are about, far easier to stick to the old notions that asian women are helpless and their men are evil oppressors, black women are strong and their men are feckless etc etc...

[yick]

within asian communities, i think, due to the emphasis placed on maintaining family honour and not airing out dirty laundry, you are made to feel like you should place womens issues secondary or not show outside communities that there is even a 'problem'...this is so ingrained that even i sometimes bristle when non-asians make comments (even if theyre true) about injustices asian women may face, and i feel as though i should defend my culture etc...

Admittedly I don't envy having to be a non-white woman in a Western society. This is my understanding of the situation and some observations I have made. Unfortunately, proponents for racial equality movements, IMO, fail to see it as their responsibility to push for sexual equality within those movements. Often leaving that responsibility to the feminist movement, as pointed out, which does not aptly represent non-white females. So in many cases, as I've noticed, non-white women have to make the decision to either divest their culture or relegate themselves to traditional female roles. And if you notice, strong female asians, particularly in the media in North America, tend to be barely recognizable as asians aside from their physical traits. So it almost has to be a question of what's more important, sex or race (as proposed by the thread)? Frankly I don't see current agendas of activist groups for women and race capable of attaining the our ultimate goal of equality, well at least in a satisfactory rate. I liken it to smoothing out a rough rocky surface with water.

But who is to blame for this? I think a lot of the fault lies in the very cultures/races that we champion. Many asians in North America are conditioned to seek out well paying and secure professional vocations (ie. doctors, engineers, dentists, etc.). Admittedly I followed this trend. The problem with this is that these are often positions which lack the "power" to effect change. How many asians become politicians, media personalities, celebrities, etc. that can influence change? It's all fine and dandy to stand side-by-side with a fellow activist to lobby government for change, but what we really need are people on the "inside". We need to raise and nurture a generation of empowered youths willing to challenge the system and become "policy makers". Having voices outside of the Capitol Building isn't going to be as effective as having more voices IN the Capitol Building, where our demands can still be heard when the doors are shut(ie. when in session). I'd say that's where change has to begin. Otherwise our voice is just going to be construed as querulous. Anyway that's my thought. A little long winded perhaps, but hopefully it's food for thought.

[lena99]

Wow.
I am surprised that this thread was still opened.
It's good to hear the responses though.

How do you feel about this and how have you dealt with it?

I still deal with it. I think, sad to say, I end up putting feminism at the back burner more often in community events for the sake of unity. Now, I think that is entirely the wrong approach. Career-wise, since I had to deal directly with sexual harassment where I worked I learned to be a lot more pro-active in women's issues in the workplace. If I had to do it again, I would have been more assertive in the beginning of my career and I hope that if I have a daughter I can make her more prepared.

[nola]

Admittedly I don't envy having to be a non-white woman in a Western society. This is my understanding of the situation and some observations I have made. Unfortunately, proponents for racial equality movements, IMO, fail to see it as their responsibility to push for sexual equality within those movements. Often leaving that responsibility to the feminist movement, as pointed out, which does not aptly represent non-white females. So in many cases, as I've noticed, non-white women have to make the decision to either divest their culture or relegate themselves to traditional female roles. And if you notice, strong female asians, particularly in the media in North America, tend to be barely recognizable as asians aside from their physical traits. So it almost has to be a question of what's more important, sex or race (as proposed by the thread)? Frankly I don't see current agendas of activist groups for women and race capable of attaining the our ultimate goal of equality, well at least in a satisfactory rate. I liken it to smoothing out a rough rocky surface with water.

But who is to blame for this? I think a lot of the fault lies in the very cultures/races that we champion. Many asians in North America are conditioned to seek out well paying and secure professional vocations (ie. doctors, engineers, dentists, etc.). Admittedly I followed this trend. The problem with this is that these are often positions which lack the "power" to effect change. How many asians become politicians, media personalities, celebrities, etc. that can influence change? It's all fine and dandy to stand side-by-side with a fellow activist to lobby government for change, but what we really need are people on the "inside". We need to raise and nurture a generation of empowered youths willing to challenge the system and become "policy makers". Having voices outside of the Capitol Building isn't going to be as effective as having more voices IN the Capitol Building, where our demands can still be heard when the doors are shut(ie. when in session). I'd say that's where change has to begin. Otherwise our voice is just going to be construed as querulous. Anyway that's my thought. A little long winded perhaps, but hopefully it's food for thought.Nice to see you're clued in.

[yick]

Must be the drugs I've been taking... ;-p

[nola]

I've always wondered about this, and in a lot of the AA movements at my school, a lot of the males, while totally knowledgeable in what injustices had been struck againsts APAs, still treated a lot of women like dirt, or acted like they were only playthings/didn't respect their opinions. I thought it took a lot of balls to be a female AA activist sometimes at my school because of all the shit sometimes. I once did hosted a workshop on sexism and a lot of the guys were just totally laughing and giggling over shit while the women were steaming and just getting pissy. I mean, you'd think that once you experienced any form of prejudice/stereotyping you'd be able to apply it to someone else, no?I like what you said a few months ago.

but really, when *would* be the proper time? and why should race issues take priority? the old boys' club is still so in existence in, at least, the chinese community, and i think also in the criminal law community (which is of signficance to me, but maybe not others). but imagine being a female criminal law attorney - asian, no less - and having to work amongst asian male criminal law attorneys who don't give you the support or encouragement that younger asian male criminal law attorneys are getting for the sole fact that they are male...

that's just one example of many where we are discriminated against within our own community because we are women. sexual harassment runs rampant, stereotypes of who we are and what we are capable of, judgments passed when we are not married by a certain age, beliefs of what appropriate career paths are for us, disrespect by men in our community for asian female political figures, etc. etc.

in light of all of this, why shouldn't gender issues also be a priority?and what kasie later said.

[urbia]

I hated choosing between race and sex. I think one way of resisting that is by viewing yourself not as some kind of 'duality,' as WOC are often described in magazines, but a person in her default setting. I know it sounds very simplistic and straight-forward. To me, it meant not fretting about 'I have to do either A or B, not both, or I'll be a hypocrite.' Instead I accepted, 'Okay, so fine, I do A, and I do B, and that's how I am, end of story. Hypocrite on whose terms anyway?' Of course, there are limitations with this, when part of the solution lies outside my power, but it's the standard 'test' I use against myself whenever I come to a potential roadblock.

I confronted sexism relatively late. Either I was inattentive or I simply had no idea what sexism really was. I played sports with boys through grade school recesses and saw them as equals, and nobody 'went easy on me' because I was a naturally fast sprinter. I came to school with track medals and was a local 'star' who was recognized with those fist-raising raucous, 'WOO!' cheers. When I did encounter sexism from APA guys, my reaction was to simply hang out with other people, even if it meant a gradual fall-out with my APA female friends who introduced them to me. The huge difference in respect and attitude made the choice seem so easy at the time.

In university, an APA male I didn't even know straight-out said, "Fuck you" at me on the basketball court during a co-ed game because I was stealing the ball from his teammates repeatedly as Defense. It was so intrusive. I think the time I finally 'woke up' and addressed sexism happened when another APA male sexually assaulted me. I was sort of shocked when it just happened, then there was this sudden calm a few moments later when I made up my mind. We got into a sort of physical scuffle but I got him to leave me alone.

Then eventually, hanging out with white people all the time led to my exposure to Asiaphiles. It seemed strange that when I called them on racism, they were apologetic and seemed glad I spoke up, and said it was a good thing. But if I mentioned sexism, they got really defensive. (At the time, I didn't even know what feminism was, so I didn't even use the term-- just sexism itself was enough to do it.)

Now I see 'feminism-for-WOC' high on my agenda as a complete goal. To me, it's not just feminism with a WOC flavour. I try to have an APA-centric attitude about it like it's the 'norm' for me, read and learn more, and think about possible future allies with other WOC. In real life, there's usually not a lot of time in a conversation to make a real long rant about feminism, so I do my best by trying to be an example. When my friends complain to me about sexism, I make sure my reactions suggest, "What the fuck? That's not normal," instead of, "Yeah, it happens to me all the time." Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.

Edit: To clarify, I combined feminism and anti-racism as my goal. I left the latter out as habit in my initial post. I'm used to thinking 'feminism' as including anti-racism, as third wave feminism deals with sexism, racism, and classism in a movement that closely watches globalism too. It's not all about anti-capitalism or anti-globalism as much as trying to redistribute power to get some darned human rights back, and strive towards true meritocracy. A lot of people confuse feminism as necessarily a form of socialism.

[nola]

When I did encounter sexism from APA guys, my reaction was to simply hang out with other people, even if it meant a gradual fall-out with my APA female friends who introduced them to me. The huge difference in respect and attitude made the choice seem so easy at the time.
You're the only other person here who's said this.

I combined feminism and anti-racism as my goal. I'm used to thinking 'feminism' as including anti-racism, as third wave feminism deals with sexism, racism, and classism in a movement that closely watches globalism too. It's not all about anti-capitalism or anti-globalism as much as trying to redistribute power to get some darned human rights back, and strive towards true meritocracy. So I'm at the same place you're at, urbia, combining feminism and anti-racism.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'm not sure what people mean by a 'true meritocracy'. How would this work since everyone has a different view of what is meritable and how much people deserve for various "merits" in the first place?

[nola]

It just means people of all races, genders, sexualities and classes will have an equal chance to survive or succeed.

[hkRT]

Being APA and female, I just find that sometimes when I'm in a group of people, some guys tend to purposely just talk to the guys and ignore what I have to say even if I have more knowledge of the issue at hand. It happens to my mom and dad too. Sometimes there are certain guys that will just turn to my dad and talk on and on with him, ignoring my mom, even though my dad doesn't know a darn thing about the things the guy is talking about and my mom on the other hand knows a great deal more. The body language shows as well. It is similar with race too... like in a group of people with different ethnicities, it seems that as a visible minority, I'll have to talk louder than everyone and put in extra effort to be heard or acknowledged.

[urbia]

I'm not sure what people mean by a 'true meritocracy'. How would this work since everyone has a different view of what is meritable and how much people deserve for various "merits" in the first place?

Nola said it best. Basically, a level playing field.

Being APA and female, I just find that sometimes when I'm in a group of people, some guys tend to purposely just talk to the guys

Sometimes it happens to me too. I've made a game out of it for my own amusement. Whenever a guy does that, I pass on invitations to go out on one-on-one outings and only go when it's a group outing. I also keep phone conversations to 30 seconds or less. We never end up really talking that much to each other and it's his own doing. :biggrin: Over time, I can sense the frustration build.

[nola]

She's got a plan! :tongue:

[nola]

Bump


I've always wondered about this, and in a lot of the AA movements at my school, a lot of the males, while totally knowledgeable in what injustices had been struck againsts APAs, still treated a lot of women like dirt, or acted like they were only playthings/didn't respect their opinions. I thought it took a lot of balls to be a female AA activist sometimes at my school because of all the shit sometimes. I once did hosted a workshop on sexism and a lot of the guys were just totally laughing and giggling over shit while the women were steaming and just getting pissy. I mean, you'd think that once you experienced any form of prejudice/stereotyping you'd be able to apply it to someone else, no?Keith, I am impressed and that is all I have to say.

The first activist group I ever joined was Asian American many years ago and it looks like things haven't changed since it appears you were in college recently. We had the same problems back then. The internet has been the same experience for me over the last two years. The African-American movement had to splinter into mens' and womens' groups and the National Asian Pacific American Women's Forum which had its first conference a few years ago is the first I've seen of an Asian American women's group. I hope we can work together instead.