Do you think the national minimum wage of $5.15 should be raised?

[nola]

Do you think it should be raised? Should it stay the same, be lowered or should there be no minimum wage?

[John0101]

Riased without a doubt.

The minimum wage was created to provide a safety net for people so they will not live in poverty. Today, most people who are living in poverty are single mothers and children because the minimum wage only provides support for a single person and not two individuals.

Most Mcdonald salaries are higher then $5.15 and often pay $7+ dollars implying that $5.15 is actually BELLOW the market equilibrum wage for low-skill workers and does nothing to help fight poverty and raising it will not contribute to inflation or job loss (if you raise it to the market equilibrum wage).

Other arguements - cost of living has gone up, 5.15 does not take into account of inflation.

[nola]

Luckily when the min wage in Florida was raised this year it was indexed to go up with inflation. But it hadn't been raised from 5.15 for seven years meaning the cost of living had gone up those seven years while the min wage stayed the same. Along with the new 6.15 min wage, restaurant workers will earn a dollar (or more indexed with inflation) more an hour too. They made about 3.40 an hour in 2004.

[Yeahman]

That the arguement that the min wage should be raised because it hasn't been indexed to inflation, assumes that it was at the correct rate in the first place. I think it was too high before but is at about the correct rate right now.

I believe that there are better ways to deal with poverty than raising the min wage including reforming welfare and providing government vouchers for healthcare. Mandatory corporate healthcare puts downward pressure on wages and puts American companies at a competitive disadvantage. We should also end the Social Security tax.
I would support a min wage hike if we eliminated income tax in favor of a consumption tax.

[nola]

Uh no. The proponents of the 6.15 minimum wage argued that not only had the 5.15 wage been too low in 1997 but that the min wages henceforth should always be indexed to go up with inflation. The particular group that won this campaign made this a part of their Living Wage campaign meaning what they shoot for with all these raised min wages all over the country is what is called a "living wage". A living wage is having enough to live decently and with dignity. These dollar raises are still not enough but they are a major improvement. They also raised the min wage in NY state (to 7.15 by 2007), SFO (to 8.50), Chicago (to 9.43) and many other states and cities.

[Yeahman]

Uh no. The proponents of the 6.15 minimum wage argued that not only had the 5.15 wage been too low in 1997 but that the min wages henceforth should always be indexed to go up with inflation. The particular group that won this campaign made this a part of their Living Wage campaign meaning what they shoot for with all these raised min wages all over the country is what is called a "living wage". A living wage is having enough to live decently and with dignity. These dollar raises are still not enough but they are a major improvement. They also raised the min wage in NY state (to 7.15 by 2007), SFO (to 8.50), Chicago (to 9.43) and many other states and cities.
And what a terrible campaign it was.
A "living wage" is not "having enough to live decently and with dignity."
The living wage is the wage necessary to escape poverty. And the $5.15/hour wage does that! But the "living wage" activists don't use individuals as their examples. They use the single mother of 3 to argue that the min wage needs to be raised.

Anybody see anything wrong with a single person making a decent living whereas a single mother of 4 at the same job cannot? But this inequality is what the "living wage" proponents want.

Can you or anyone else supporting a min wage hike, critic my proposal? Keep the min wage the same. This IS the "living wage" for a single individual. It is not a "living wage" for those with dependents. However those with dependents can receive financial help from the government. 50% of the amount that they fall short of the "living wage."
Examples:
A single person with no dependents needed $9,573 in 2003 to be above poverty. Assuming a 40-hour week and a 48-week year, that's $4.99/hour. So actually the current min wage is still a little high.

A single mother of 3 needed $18,725 in 2003 to break out of poverty. Assuming that she makes $4.99/hour, she falls $9,152 short. So she'll get $4,576 in welfare.

As long as they fall short, they get welfare. Along with getting rid of the Social Security tax, this would help the poor in a fair manner. Now we can debate where the poverty line should be but that's something else.

[nola]

working full-time makes you ineligile for welare. besides the fact hat Parenting is-is all-timejob.sorry i am on the ellipticl machine atf the gym typinngr thiss. youyoung boBoys have so ittle compsssion formothrs.

[John0101]

I believe that there are better ways to deal with poverty than raising the min wage including reforming welfare and providing government vouchers for healthcare. Mandatory corporate healthcare puts downward pressure on wages and puts American companies at a competitive disadvantage. We should also end the Social Security tax.
I would support a min wage hike if we eliminated income tax in favor of a consumption tax.

I actually have to agree. The minimum wage targets those people who are working and there are a large number of people who are in poverty whom are not working. Lets not forget about the working poor.

I haven't studied much about the healthcare system, except that healthcare costs are extraordinary high pricing out many middle class americans. Except I would also support a nationalized healthcare system.

One of the best ways to fight poverty IMO is an expanded welfare system including direct subsidizes to those in poverty (like food stamps) until they reach the poverty threshold.

[Yeahman]

working full-time makes you ineligile for welare.
That is why I'm calling for welfare reform!

[Irezumi Kiss]

working full-time makes you ineligile for welare. besides the fact hat Parenting is-is all-timejob.sorry i am on the ellipticl machine atf the gym typinngr thiss. youyoung boBoys have so ittle compsssion formothrs.
Jeez, Nola...I thought you were drunk or smoking that wacky tobaccy or something!

actually keep typing this way...makes your posts more funny... :wink:

I believe the wage should be increased.

[Yeahman]

I actually have to agree. The minimum wage targets those people who are working and there are a large number of people who are in poverty whom are not working. Lets not forget about the working poor.
Not to mention that raising the min wage would increase unemployment among the poor.

I haven't studied much about the healthcare system, except that healthcare costs are extraordinary high pricing out many middle class americans. Except I would also support a nationalized healthcare system.
I think that healthcare vouchers are a better idea. I've seen the Medicaid bureaucracy at work. It isn't pretty. Let people choose their own healthcare insurance.

But, I'm a little undecided on this. How about just cutting them a check? Why decide how they must spend the money? If they want to spend it for health insurance, that's fine. If they want to spend it for a car, go ahead. Is it really the government's job to tell people what they need? For minors, I can understand. But what about adults?

One of the best ways to fight poverty IMO is an expanded welfare system including direct subsidizes to those in poverty (like food stamps) until they reach the poverty threshold.
Exactly.

[hooligan]

I think way too many people think that minimum wage is something you can live off of. I'm for increasing minimum wage, in LA it's already seven something. When I was working at McDonald's, I was making minimum and it's nothing to live off of, but people do.

Taking into account things like car insurance, health insurance, and whatever else you need to live by yourself minimum wage does not work toward your future. You cannot and will not have the time to go to school and save for retirement/rainy days. Much less raise a family.

Oh, to address the poverty line, making sure that people are at the poverty line does not even begin to describe a rich and fulfilling life in my opinion. It's ridiculous to assume that just making it at the poverty line is any way shape or form dictates a good life. Obviously, most of you who are saying minimum wage is enough to live on haven't really experienced living at the poverty line.

If you really break it down, raising minimum wage really will help poor people and it will probably hurt small business owners, but i believe the responsibilities will lie in large businesses and corporations making sure that their employees are well paid before doling out millions of dollars for their CEOs. I'm more for corporate responsibility and a balance of wealth.

[tapestrybabe]

my nj acting govenor, cody...
just proprosed the other day...
to raise nj's minimum wage
to 7.15$ an hour...

[Yeahman]

I think way too many people think that minimum wage is something you can live off of. I'm for increasing minimum wage, in LA it's already seven something. When I was working at McDonald's, I was making minimum and it's nothing to live off of, but people do.

Taking into account things like car insurance, health insurance, and whatever else you need to live by yourself minimum wage does not work toward your future. You cannot and will not have the time to go to school and save for retirement/rainy days. Much less raise a family.
That is why maybe the state should not mandate car insurance or health insurance. Or maybe the state should just provide vouchers for both.
If you're going to school, you should have gotten a loan if you can't afford to go to school and work at the same time.
And I said that I want to reform welfare so that those with families will be taken care of without raising the min wage.

Oh, to address the poverty line, making sure that people are at the poverty line does not even begin to describe a rich and fulfilling life in my opinion. It's ridiculous to assume that just making it at the poverty line is any way shape or form dictates a good life. Obviously, most of you who are saying minimum wage is enough to live on haven't really experienced living at the poverty line.
I never said it was a good life. It's not. I wouldn't even consider $10/hour a "good life." But...
1. There is a cost to raising the min wage and that cost is unemployment. Sure the poor will be making more money. But there will be fewer of them. The rest will be jobless.
2. Why do I have to make sure that others live a good life? I want to make sure they have the basic necessities and educational opportunities but I don't think the poor need HBO.

Will you join me in opposing Social Security? Like you said the poor may not have enough money to save. So why charge them the SS tax? Let them have that money now instead. If they want to save it, they can do it on their own.

If you really break it down, raising minimum wage really will help poor people and it will probably hurt small business owners, but i believe the responsibilities will lie in large businesses and corporations making sure that their employees are well paid before doling out millions of dollars for their CEOs. I'm more for corporate responsibility and a balance of wealth.
So am I. There aren't many people for corporate irresponsibility and imbalance of wealth.
How we go about it is where the differences lie.

[jz87]

Instead of increasing the minimum wage to compensate for inflation, why not eliminate inflation?

[nola]

Not to mention that raising the min wage would increase unemployment among the poor.

I think that healthcare vouchers are a better idea. I've seen the Medicaid bureaucracy at work. It isn't pretty. Let people choose their own healthcare insurance.

But, I'm a little undecided on this. How about just cutting them a check? Why decide how they must spend the money? If they want to spend it for health insurance, that's fine. If they want to spend it for a car, go ahead. Is it really the government's job to tell people what they need? For minors, I can understand. But what about adults?It's obvious to me that everything you've posted about economics you learned from economics texts and classes because I talked to hundreds of youngish men like you last year and the claim that raising the minimum wage causes unemployment is FALSE except in small businesses and every time the minimum wage is raised multitudes of people like you say the same thing and it does not happen. Raising the minimum wage does not cause people to lose jobs except in small businesses. In the case of the Chicago minimum wage of 9.43 anyone without health care gets 11.43 instead. Illinois has become such a good blue state! Senator Obama to boot. If only we could eliminate inflation! Why not? Too bad because inflation should never happen when you think about it. And we shouldn't have to get more than a college education to live a good life. We need to eliminate educational degree inflation too. It's all so ridiculous. Both dehumanize us and turn life into a miserable rat race!

[Yeahman]

So please tell me why we shouldn't increase the min wage to $20/hour if it doesn't cause unemployment. And getting fired from a small business still adds to unemployment. Did you think that small business (the biggest sector of employment) doesn't count?

[nola]

I'm not sure what a living wage would be, that is, enough money to live on. I'd guess it would be around $12-15 an hour. $20 an hour is too much for unskilled labor. I don't know exactly how much a living wage would be but remember we're talking just enough to live on.

[Yeahman]

But what's wrong with $20/hour? If it's not going to cause unemployment, why not?

Just enough to live on is defined by the government as about $4.99/hour for a single person with no dependents. Of course it differs by region but that is the average. I don't think the min wage should differ by region either. That just causes regional inflation.
For a single mother of 3, it's $9.75/hour which is what the "living wage" proponents go by.
You can see the obviously wide-gap between the wealth of a single person and a person with 3 dependents even though they have the same job. A single mother of 3 making $10/hour is barely out of poverty. A single person with no dependents is not doing too bad with that wage. That disparity of wealth is why I want to keep the min wage index to a single person with no dependents at the poverty line and just provide welfare for those with dependents.

[Hiroshi2]

Hell yeah!



I say $7.50/hour should do it. Big businesses go broke? Fuck 'em..................they can afford it, shit...................as long as their CEOs don't steal money from their employees' savings accounts and pensions for pussy in Thailand................yeah, I think they'll be able to afford it.


Like, come on now................who the fuck can live off of $5.15/hour.

[SunWuKong]

i have to agree with yell0 here. a high minimum wage would only hurt small businesses the most, the kind of small businesses where the owners aren't exactly getting rich, but making enough to provide their families with a good life. many small businesses just end up cutting workers' hours when minimum wage is raised. my own parents owned a small business before, it was tough to afford to keep all the employees at the same hours that they work when minimum wage was raised.

it's not a solution to eliminating poverty, because like i said before, many small businesses wouldn't be able to afford to pay all their employees or keep them all working at the same hours as before. so their pay would pretty much be the same because they're working less hours now. or somebody may even get laid off.

does it cause unemployment? i don't necessarily think so. so the local mom-and-pop shop closes down, and Walmart gets more business. guess where the mom-and-pop employees are going to go to try to find a job? Walmart can certainly afford the raised minimum wage, and they'll probably need to hire more people with the new business that they're getting because the mom-and-pop shop closed down.

a high minimum wage basically raises the startup costs and the overhead for businesses, while big business can afford it, small businesses can't. and a lot of times, small business is how families move up the economic ladder. a high minimum wage would basically prevent more people from moving up economically and letting big business retain more economic power because they would be the only ones that can afford to hire people and keep their business going.

[nola]

But what's wrong with $20/hour? If it's not going to cause unemployment, why not?

Just enough to live on is defined by the government as about $4.99/hour for a single person with no dependents. Of course it differs by region but that is the average. I don't think the min wage should differ by region either. That just causes regional inflation.
For a single mother of 3, it's $9.75/hour which is what the "living wage" proponents go by.
You can see the obviously wide-gap between the wealth of a single person and a person with 3 dependents even though they have the same job. A single mother of 3 making $10/hour is barely out of poverty. A single person with no dependents is not doing too bad with that wage. That disparity of wealth is why I want to keep the min wage index to a single person with no dependents at the poverty line and just provide welfare for those with dependents.Because living wage people aren't into padding their accounts like fatcat capitalists that's why. They want a wage that is fair and enough to live on not some padded number. Why do conservatives who argue against the minimum wage always bring up some exorbitant number they think up themselves just to trivialize the issue? Where did you come up with the figure that $5.00 an hour is enough for a single person with no dependents to live on? One of those repellent conservative think tanks? Have you ever tried to live on a minimum wage salary? You can't. You need to work two or three of them to pay for basic needs and emergencies. What if you get sick once this year or your cat gets sick or your car breaks down? You cannot survive on $5.00 an hour. The welfare system does not need alot of reform although it's making progress in helping single mothers blend work and welfare but it's pretty new. Try being in her situation and it's undignified.

[hooligan]

i have to agree with yell0 here. a high minimum wage would only hurt small businesses the most, the kind of small businesses where the owners aren't exactly getting rich, but making enough to provide their families with a good life. many small businesses just end up cutting workers' hours when minimum wage is raised. my own parents owned a small business before, it was tough to afford to keep all the employees at the same hours that they work when minimum wage was raised.

it's not a solution to eliminating poverty, because like i said before, many small businesses wouldn't be able to afford to pay all their employees or keep them all working at the same hours as before. so their pay would pretty much be the same because they're working less hours now. or somebody may even get laid off.

does it cause unemployment? i don't necessarily think so. so the local mom-and-pop shop closes down, and Walmart gets more business. guess where the mom-and-pop employees are going to go to try to find a job? Walmart can certainly afford the raised minimum wage, and they'll probably need to hire more people with the new business that they're getting because the mom-and-pop shop closed down.

a high minimum wage basically raises the startup costs and the overhead for businesses, while big business can afford it, small businesses can't. and a lot of times, small business is how families move up the economic ladder. a high minimum wage would basically prevent more people from moving up economically and letting big business retain more economic power because they would be the only ones that can afford to hire people and keep their business going.

So, I guess the poor, uneducated people of the world will simply have to live off of crappy minimum wage. I think what we really need to do is disengage and deconstruct corporations and large businesses. Minimum wage is not something anyone can live on in this society. You can't say that minimum wage is going to pay for anything unless you've actually worked minimum and I really dont' think anyone here has.

You know what? I bet Jz and Yell0 would want to work for minimum wage. Better yet, let's send to some of the developing countries and have them work there and support their economic theories!

[SunWuKong]

You can't say that minimum wage is going to pay for anything unless you've actually worked minimum and I really dont' think anyone here has.

well, actually, yes, i have worked minimum wage. i did that the first two years of college before i got a teaching job. i paid for everything, and my tuition came from scholarships and loans which i'm still paying off.

rent was $300, i was living with 5 other guys. so all of us together paid $1800 for a run-down townhouse near campus. parts of the ceiling in one room literally fell off one time during a rain storm. i lived on cafeteria food, canned soup, rice, cheap frozen meat and vegies.

and you know, my grandmother raised an uncle and an aunt on less than minimum wage working at a sweatshop in Chinatown.

again, i don't think raising minimum wage will necessarily cause unemployment. you might be putting a lot of strain on a lot of small businesses though.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

We should improve enforcement the existing law by offering a reward of 50% of an employer's business assets (or equivalent cash value) to employees who turn in their employers for violating minimum wage laws.

A bunch of agricultural workers would go back to their families in Mexico REALLY damn happy.

[hooligan]

well, actually, yes, i have worked minimum wage. i did that the first two years of college before i got a teaching job. i paid for everything, and my tuition came from scholarships and loans which i'm still paying off.

rent was $300, i was living with 5 other guys. so all of us together paid $1800 for a run-down townhouse near campus. parts of the ceiling in one room literally fell off one time during a rain storm. i lived on cafeteria food, canned soup, rice, cheap frozen meat and vegies.

and you know, my grandmother raised an uncle and an aunt on less than minimum wage working at a sweatshop in Chinatown.

again, i don't think raising minimum wage will necessarily cause unemployment. you might be putting a lot of strain on a lot of small businesses though.

Yeah, living in LA doesn't help me put the rest of the nation into perspective. Land here is astronomical compared to other parts of the nation. I certainly wouldn't able to live off of minimum here, unless I worked days and nights. I think for families minimum wage is no way to pay for everything, even with both parents working. I heard someplace that to have a child alone, it'll cost like 10,000 per year. Not including other classes, sports, or any other extra-curricular activities.

Your grandmother must have been quite a woman. : )

[SunWuKong]

Yeah, living in LA doesn't help me put the rest of the nation into perspective. Land here is astronomical compared to other parts of the nation. I certainly wouldn't able to live off of minimum here, unless I worked days and nights. I think for families minimum wage is no way to pay for everything, even with both parents working. I heard someplace that to have a child alone, it'll cost like 10,000 per year. Not including other classes, sports, or any other extra-curricular activities.

Your grandmother must have been quite a woman. : )

well, NYC ain't exactly cakewalk either in terms of costs, and that's where my grandmother lives. incidently my aunt is now a social worker that helps Chinese immigrants get government help. :smile:

i guess i don't know about L.A., but i tend to think that with the right amount of tax deductibles for children, etc, and welfare when applicable, minimum wage is enough for a very frugal lifestyle. maybe a higher minimum wage would be necessary for some states. but you can't disagree that too high of a minimum wage would put small businesses out of business. then raising minimum wage is still not a solution out of poverty. what's 50 more cents an hour really going to do?

[hooligan]

well, NYC ain't exactly cakewalk either in terms of costs, and that's where my grandmother lives. incidently my aunt is now a social worker that helps Chinese immigrants get government help. :smile:

i guess i don't know about L.A., but i tend to think that with the right amount of tax deductibles for children, etc, and welfare when applicable, minimum wage is enough for a very frugal lifestyle. maybe a higher minimum wage would be necessary for some states. but you can't disagree that too high of a minimum wage would put small businesses out of business. then raising minimum wage is still not a solution out of poverty. what's 50 more cents an hour really going to do?

True, I think the whole system needs to be re-worked and minimum wage/living wage is just a small part of the problem. They say to living "decently" in LA you need at least a living wage and the living wage is at 13.50. Scary.

[nola]

It should vary according to region. Some parts of the country are alot cheaper to live in that LA, NYC or SFO. As far as I know I don't think people can get welfare if they're working full-time.

[Filiprish]

So, I guess the poor, uneducated people of the world will simply have to live off of crappy minimum wage. I think what we really need to do is disengage and deconstruct corporations and large businesses.
There are some things that require large corporations b/c of economies of scale. Take any high-end manufactured good (car, computer), for example. Perhaps every town should have their own manufacturer. Perhaps we all should just order the parts from local small businesses and build them ourselves. Basically, if you like cars and computers you have to accept that corporations are part of the structure of things.

I don't see why more poor people don't do what Rad did in college. All you have to do is get some people together and you can live a decent life. I think state governments should do more to educate poor people, though, in how to manage their money and collaborate with others.

Despite the latter, I think we desperately need to do something about healthcare. Medicaid is a joke. 45 millions do not have health insurance. This includes middle-class citizens...middle-class citizens! If we all had healthcare living on minimum wage would not so bad.

Minimum wage is not something anyone can live on in this society. You can't say that minimum wage is going to pay for anything unless you've actually worked minimum and I really dont' think anyone here has.
I've worked for minimum wage during high school. It was $4.25 at McDs. Did it for 4 years.

Instead of increasing the minimum wage to compensate for inflation, why not eliminate inflation?
Ha, ha. Good question.

[hooligan]

There are some things that require large corporations b/c of economies of scale. Take any high-end manufactured good (car, computer), for example. Perhaps every town should have their own manufacturer. Perhaps we all should just order the parts from local small businesses and build them ourselves. Basically, if you like cars and computers you have to accept that corporations are part of the structure of things.

I don't see why more poor people don't do what Rad did in college. All you have to do is get some people together and you can live a decent life. I think state governments should do more to educate poor people, though, in how to manage their money and collaborate with others.

Despite the latter, I think we desperately need to do something about healthcare. Medicaid is a joke. 45 millions do not have health insurance. This includes middle-class citizens...middle-class citizens! If we all had healthcare living on minimum wage would not so bad.


I've worked for minimum wage during high school. It was $4.25 at McDs. Did it for 4 years.


Ha, ha. Good question.

Well, I know we all have done it, I worked at McDonalds as well, but I guess the question should be would do you it for life? Will you be able to raise a family and retire off of it? I don't think we can, nor do I think that people who work at minimum wage are able to unless they get more than one job.

[SunWuKong]

I don't see why more poor people don't do what Rad did in college. All you have to do is get some people together and you can live a decent life. I think state governments should do more to educate poor people, though, in how to manage their money and collaborate with others.

well it was probably a little easier for me than it is for some people. i was young, single, and i was getting a college education. i knew i would only be working minimum wage for a short period of time. things were looking up.

plus, welfare at the moment isn't exactly all that it's cracked up to be for those that actually need it. there needs to be a lot of reform.

Well, I know we all have done it, I worked at McDonalds as well, but I guess the question should be would do you it for life? Will you be able to raise a family and retire off of it? I don't think we can, nor do I think that people who work at minimum wage are able to unless they get more than one job.

well, i just wanted to add, working minimum wage while being financial independent is a whole different ball game than working minimum wage while living with your parents. i had been working since i was 14, but i lived with my parents until i went away for college.

[nola]

I worked at McDonalds as well, but I guess the question should be would do you it for life? Will you be able to raise a family and retire off of it? I don't think we can, nor do I think that people who work at minimum wage are able to unless they get more than one job.Working at McDonald's for life, raising a family and retiring on it. That's funny and depressing at the same time. Non-college grads who work these jobs have to work two or three to survive. This is true.

[TB4000]

You never appreciate money unless you've had to do without it.

[jz87]

What if you get sick once this year or your cat gets sick or your car breaks down? You cannot survive on $5.00 an hour. The welfare system does not need alot of reform although it's making progress in helping single mothers blend work and welfare but it's pretty new. Try being in her situation and it's undignified.

Hmm, so the "poor" person can afford a cat. Reminds me of the time when we had to eat my pet rabbit for Chinese New Years when I was little. I think the solution in this case is obvious if the person is really poor.

Consider the following article
http://www.nytimes.com/library/financial/022000silicon-valley.html

I guess the minimum wage you quoted was too low, Nola. I have a better idea, how about moving somewhere cheaper? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can't live in Beverly Hills if you're making minimum wage.

[nola]

Cut out the cat. I was referring to my own life. I really don't know if poor people own pets.

Minimum wages correlate to each region. NYC, SFO, Seattle and Chicago minimum wages are higher than in cheap areas such as where I lived in Florida. And they are all too low. As Rad admitted, living independently on a minimum wage job won't cut it. You would need two or three minimum wage jobs.

[Yeahman]

Because living wage people aren't into padding their accounts like fatcat capitalists that's why. They want a wage that is fair and enough to live on not some padded number. Why do conservatives who argue against the minimum wage always bring up some exorbitant number they think up themselves just to trivialize the issue?
You're the one that claimed that raising the min wage doesn't cause unemployment. So why not $20/hour? Why can you not answer that question?

Where did you come up with the figure that $5.00 an hour is enough for a single person with no dependents to live on? One of those repellent conservative think tanks?
The US government. $4.99/hour for a single person with no dependents is the definition of poverty line. I'm open to discussion of an appropriate poverty line.

Have you ever tried to live on a minimum wage salary? You can't. You need to work two or three of them to pay for basic needs and emergencies. What if you get sick once this year or your cat gets sick or your car breaks down?
Which is why we need to stop forcing businesses to provide healthcare. It puts downward pressure on wages and puts American businesses at a competitive disadvantage. Government healthcare insurance vouchers are a better idea than raising the min wage.
Cat gets sick? Min wage should not be enough to pay for pet therapy. What if their HDTV breaks down? If you're poor, feed yourself before your cat.

You cannot survive on $5.00 an hour. The welfare system does not need alot of reform although it's making progress in helping single mothers blend work and welfare but it's pretty new. Try being in her situation and it's undignified.
Did you not listen to anything I've said. A single mother of 3 working full time for $9/hour is still in poverty. I want to that her with welfare. Why don't you?

[jz87]

I think we should raise the minimum wage so that everyone can afford irresponsible procreation. It should be at least $50/hr so that single mother of 20 can support herself and her little army. In addition, we should force her employer to provide full healthcare benefits for her and all her dependents, and that includes her cats.

Single mom with 20 kids thinks: Great, I think I'll make another baby on my lunch break. Then maybe they'll raise the minimum wage to $55 so I can buy some nice shoes.

[hooligan]

You're the one that claimed that raising the min wage doesn't cause unemployment. So why not $20/hour? Why can you not answer that question?

The US government. $4.99/hour for a single person with no dependents is the definition of poverty line. I'm open to discussion of an appropriate poverty line.

Which is why we need to stop forcing businesses to provide healthcare. It puts downward pressure on wages and puts American businesses at a competitive disadvantage. Government healthcare insurance vouchers are a better idea than raising the min wage.
Cat gets sick? Min wage should not be enough to pay for pet therapy. What if their HDTV breaks down? If you're poor, feed yourself before your cat.

Did you not listen to anything I've said. A single mother of 3 working full time for $9/hour is still in poverty. I want to that her with welfare. Why don't you?

Too bad, I'd like to pay 20 bucks for labor or minimum wage but this system of economy simply can't afford that. Hey, you never answered if you'd be willing to working for minimum which I suggest you do for a time because I'd like to see how well you do off of it. I'd rather get rid of it all together. I'd want to raise minimum wage so that people can live decently and not have to depend on things like welfare.

Businesses should provide healthcare because privatization of anything can lead (and has lead) to abuse and I'd rather reform what we do have than to dismantle the system. Especially with the hullaballoo you hear about social security, which this current administration is hyping as the current crisis (which it isn't).

Because welfare isn't just a supplement to your wages. It's supposed to help people who have bad luck or a bad year find another job or get more training to be able to get back on their feet. It simply isn't just to supplement income. Ever watch the CAAAV movie titled "Eating Welfare" ?

I think we should raise the minimum wage so that everyone can afford irresponsible procreation. It should be at least $50/hr so that single mother of 20 can support herself and her little army. In addition, we should force her employer to provide full healthcare benefits for her and all her dependents, and that includes her cats.

Single mom with 20 kids thinks: Great, I think I'll make another baby on my lunch break. Then maybe they'll raise the minimum wage to $55 so I can buy some nice shoes.

Ronald Reagan just called and he wants his propaganda back.

[kimpossible]

Single mom with 20 kids thinks: Great, I think I'll make another baby on my lunch break.

What do the deadbeat dads think?


Ronald Reagan just called and he wants his propaganda back.

Dunno if it's a Republican thing exactly, unless I'm a Republican and don't realize it - I have some pretty hardassed views on 'welfare' mothers myself but I'm equally hardassed on the irresponsible sperm donors that need a cocklock if they don't pay for all those babies they make.

Cuz I sure the hell don't want to pay for them.

[hooligan]

What do the deadbeat dads think?



Dunno if it's a Republican thing exactly, unless I'm a Republican and don't realize it - I have some pretty hardassed views on 'welfare' mothers myself but I'm equally hardassed on the irresponsible sperm donors that need a cocklock if they don't pay for all those babies they make.

Cuz I sure the hell don't want to pay for them.

I think Rondal Reagan (or was it Bush) who talked about welfare mothers and he used that same (well not the same) example to describe welfare mothers who have babies to get more welfare.

[kitty]

well, i just wanted to add, working minimum wage while being financial independent is a whole different ball game than working minimum wage while living with your parents. i had been working since i was 14, but i lived with my parents until i went away for college.

agreed. i've run into a lot of people who loudly proclaim that minimum wage is enough for them. and yet, most of them either get partial subsidies from parents (directly or indirectly. e.g. having most of their clothing from when they were kids, a nice cash infusion every couple of months, or having stolen most of their furniture from dorm rooms or their parents' homes).

i've also met people who support themselves off of one or two minimum wage jobs. it isn't easy, and by leaving the minimum wage where it is so far below living wage, a single person with no dependents can survive, but it's essentially a policy of denying the poor the ability to support their children, either encouraging them to 'die out' or reproduce exponentially in order to facilitate breadwinning in the household.

poor families don't have larger numbers of children because they are 'irresponsible' as jz87 implies, but because more children tend to equal more hands that can earn income or help out around the house as the parents are earning income (once they reach a certain age). it sounds coldhearted, but under most capitalistic systems, those who have few income alternatives to support a family tend to find this an amenable solution. it's the same reason farmers tended to have lots of children -- more hands to help out at the farm.

rather than do what jz87 suggest, and slash minimum wage or keep it low, increasing minimum wage will actually encourage poor mothers to have fewer children because they will no longer have any incentive to birth lots of babies to help them out, and increased education also leads to lower birthrates, which is better afforded by those living above the poverty line. increasing welfare as ye110 suggests, according to number of dependents, while keeping min. wage down, also encourages exponential reproduction, because it's a means of rewarding you for reproducing.

therefore, i support, as rad suggests, a nominal increase in min. wage, but not too high because it really will adversely affect the economy and small businesses to raise it too high.

I think Rondal Reagan (or was it Bush) who talked about welfare mothers and he used that same (well not the same) example to describe welfare mothers who have babies to get more welfare.

yes. and i think the term was "welfare queens". it was extremely racist.

I guess the minimum wage you quoted was too low, Nola. I have a better idea, how about moving somewhere cheaper? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you can't live in Beverly Hills if you're making minimum wage.

jz87, the poor usually can't afford to just pick up and move.

Cut out the cat. I was referring to my own life. I really don't know if poor people own pets.


i think lower middle class and lower class families still own pets to comparable rates as middle and upper middle class families, but usually 'lower-end' pets like rabbits, 'mutt' dogs, etc. the difference is that they usually cannot afford to take the pets to the vet when it gets sick.

dogs are probably owned the most because the poor with homes usually live in rougher areas and big dogs double as guard dogs. on farms, they can help out with the livestock.

Cat gets sick? Min wage should not be enough to pay for pet therapy. What if their HDTV breaks down? If you're poor, feed yourself before your cat.


to be fair to nola, i think she was referencing 'unexpected emergencies'. though i'm sure a sick cat doesn't qualify, a sick relative, or a sudden unexpected trip out of state to attend a family funeral, a broken down car or sudden massive flooding of the house could all qualify as things that a poor person may not be able to pay for if it happens. remember, beyond the 'necessities' of insurance, most poor people don't own insurance (i.e., will probably have car insurance if they have a car, but no health or homeowners insurance).

while you may not like the idea of paying someone enough to cover emergencies of that level, or even a sick cat, are we considering a system in which people are basically coolies, where the state decides what the poor should be spending their money on? one in which they are paid enough to afford more than hand-to-mouth food and shelter of the crappiest kind and nothing else? or one in which there is an ability for the poor to, with the right living, save enough to actually pursue the american dream of capitalistic success (i.e. having enough left over that the poor person can actually decide to spend it on a sick cat)?

[deez nuts]

sure why not.

it's an honest living.

[nola]

You're the one that claimed that raising the min wage doesn't cause unemployment. So why not $20/hour? Why can you not answer that question?

The US government. $4.99/hour for a single person with no dependents is the definition of poverty line. I'm open to discussion of an appropriate poverty line.

Which is why we need to stop forcing businesses to provide healthcare. It puts downward pressure on wages and puts American businesses at a competitive disadvantage. Government healthcare insurance vouchers are a better idea than raising the min wage.

Cat gets sick? Min wage should not be enough to pay for pet therapy. What if their HDTV breaks down? If you're poor, feed yourself before your cat.

Did you not listen to anything I've said. A single mother of 3 working full time for $9/hour is still in poverty. I want to that her with welfare. Why don't you?Why not $20/hour? Because that's too high and unreasonable and would cause other problems unrelated to unemployment. I agree employers should have nothing to do with health care but I believe in universal health care like all other industrialized-civilized nations have. When you privatize health care or education quality goes up for the rich. When you have bigger gaps between the rich and poor in any country crime and terrorism increase. I think people should be more compassionate towards the poor. The US is supposedly a Christian nation but we don't follow the idea that we're supposed to help the less fortunate. I don't know if poor people have pets. I suspect they don't. The welfare system as I have said (are YOU listening?) may be changing to help single mothers combine minimum wage jobs with welfare. Ironically I learned this from an 18-year-old conservative young man who was arguing with me against raising the minimum wage. He was also against universal health care because he said he was going to be a doctor and government-sponsored health care wouldn't pay him enough as a doctor and did I know how much it would cost for him to get through medical school? This 18-year-old conservative was something else. The next week, I heard him arguing the exact same points with my co-worker.

[Craig]

Why should we have a minimum wage ? I can't see a reasonable reason. Why should Americans have a huge wage to support the crooks and thieves in the real estate and transportation industries in the USA ? If my wage gets raised, it still doesn't do much to support the excessive costs of the following items in the USA (1) housing (2) transportation (3) education and (4) health care. If you are complaining about the cost of living, why not address those 4 items (plus excessive taxes in the USA) and get the government involved in them. Raising the minimum wage punishes those people earning above the minimum wage by reducing their relative purchasing power. The slumlords and crooks in the USA seem to keep raising things like the cost of living and will only jack it up more and more if they think wages are going up (and they can squeeze more blood out).

[kuilong]

I think we should raise the minimum wage so that everyone can afford irresponsible procreation. It should be at least $50/hr so that single mother of 20 can support herself and her little army. In addition, we should force her employer to provide full healthcare benefits for her and all her dependents, and that includes her cats.

Single mom with 20 kids thinks: Great, I think I'll make another baby on my lunch break. Then maybe they'll raise the minimum wage to $55 so I can buy some nice shoes.

One wonders why birthrates aren't higher in states with more generous welfare...

He was also against universal health care because he said he was going to be a doctor and government-sponsored health care wouldn't pay him enough as a doctor and did I know how much it would cost for him to get through medical school?

Indeed, doctors in the US get paid almost twice as much as their Canadian equivalents. Many economists say that healthcare is an example of market failure.

[Yeahman]

Too bad, I'd like to pay 20 bucks for labor or minimum wage but this system of economy simply can't afford that.
Why not? If businesses can't afford to pay $20/hour, guess what happens. Unemployment! Raising the min wage causes unemployment!

Hey, you never answered if you'd be willing to working for minimum which I suggest you do for a time because I'd like to see how well you do off of it. I'd rather get rid of it all together. I'd want to raise minimum wage so that people can live decently and not have to depend on things like welfare.
I've worked near the NY min wage. With no health benefits. For a single person with no dependents it's doable.
Would you also want to make it so that people can live "decently" and not have to depend on things like public schools, Medicaid/care, and Social Security?

Businesses should provide healthcare because privatization of anything can lead (and has lead) to abuse and I'd rather reform what we do have than to dismantle the system. Especially with the hullaballoo you hear about social security, which this current administration is hyping as the current crisis (which it isn't).
1. There is no privatization/nationalization. Businesses provide private health insurance for their employees. You want business to pay for it. I want either the individual or the state to pay for it. There is no reason why business should be required to provide health insurance. They can do it if they want but they shouldn't be REQUIRED to do so. Let the individual take that money home instead.

2. Privatization cuts down on a lot of bureaucracy. The state is not interested in cost. Priate enterprise is.

Because welfare isn't just a supplement to your wages. It's supposed to help people who have bad luck or a bad year find another job or get more training to be able to get back on their feet. It simply isn't just to supplement income. Ever watch the CAAAV movie titled "Eating Welfare" ?
Think outside the box!
A single mother of 4 would still be in poverty if you adopted the "living wage." I want to help that mother by supplementing her income with welfare. Why don't you want to help her?

Indeed, doctors in the US get paid almost twice as much as their Canadian equivalents. Many economists say that healthcare is an example of market failure.
Which economists would that be?
Doctors get paid a lot in the US and is the one profession where you cannot be unemployed, becaues of the AMA's power. There is lots of demand for doctors and restricted supply.

I agree employers should have nothing to do with health care but I believe in universal health care like all other industrialized-civilized nations have. When you privatize health care or education quality goes up for the rich. When you have bigger gaps between the rich and poor in any country crime and terrorism increase.
So you're against the whole capitalist system of getting what you put in. You want to ban the rich from access to anything better than what the poor have. Hey why not socialize clothing and cars? Oh and houses! That'll eliminate the gap and we'll have no problems.

Even Medicare allows for some supplemental insurance for those willing to pay more. What you want is even more socialization? Once-size-fits all insurance?
Read the quote in my sig.

I think people should be more compassionate towards the poor. The US is supposedly a Christian nation but we don't follow the idea that we're supposed to help the less fortunate.
Nobody is against helping the poor. The question is; how?
I don't think raising the min wage helps the poor, especially when there are many other things that can be done that are much more effective at helping the poor.

[nola]

So you're against the whole capitalist system of getting what you put in. You want to ban the rich from access to anything better than what the poor have. Hey why not socialize clothing and cars? Oh and houses! That'll eliminate the gap and we'll have no problems.

Nobody is against helping the poor. The question is; how?
I don't think raising the min wage helps the poor, especially when there are many other things that can be done that are much more effective at helping the poor.I'm for the middle ground between communism and capitalism called democratic socialism. People in these countries get out what they put in although their taxes are higher. The social well-being and standards of living of these countries are much higher because people are prioritized over profits. The welfare system doesn't need much change. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage is better. If the minimum wage were a living wage and welfare were slightly reformed so single mothers could work full-time and get welfare single mothers will have an easier time surviving.

[kuilong]

There are several reasons why the free market may not lead to a Pareto efficient outcome:

1) The wide disparity in information between the sellers (medical professionals) and the buyers (assymetry of information).
2) The extreme importance of healthcare to most people.
3) The fact that quality control demands that medical professionals belong to professional organizations that can exert monopolistic control over prices.
4) The importance of geographical proximity.

Also, the exact relationship between minimum-wage laws and unemployment isn't as clear-cut as it may seem; I think you're assuming a perfectly competitive market, whereas some research (c.f. Alan Manning) suggests that monopsony is common in labor markets, which would indicate that an increase in minimum wage would have a positive effect on employment. Also, efficiency wage hyphotheses suggest that in some markets, the most efficient wage is higher than the market cleared wage.

Instead of increasing the minimum wage to compensate for inflation, why not eliminate inflation?

By "inflation", do you mean an increase in the money supply (not necessarily with a corresponding increase in prices), as the Austrian school is fond of defining it?

[Yeahman]

I'm for the middle ground between communism and capitalism called democratic socialism. People in these countries get out what they put in although their taxes are higher. The social well-being and standards of living of these countries are much higher because people are prioritized over profits. The welfare system doesn't need much change. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage is better. If the minimum wage were a living wage and welfare were slightly reformed so single mothers could work full-time and get welfare single mothers will have an easier time surviving.
But $5.15/hour is ABOVE the living wage. At least for single persons with no dependents. Those that require a higher living wage (ie. those with dependents) should receive supplemental income in the form of welfare. No increase in min wage necessary.

[kimpossible]

But $5.15/hour is ABOVE the living wage.

By what definition? I assume you're going by a federal guideline or economic term because of the specified use of living wage.

[nola]

The living wage movement does not consult government reports about poverty lines and what is .01 above the poverty line. Living wage is about decent, dignified living and a chance to prosper esp if one was not born middle-class or above. And it ain't what Ronald Reagan made up about welfare queens living with fur coats on filet mignon. That's Karl Rove-type image manipulation.

[kimpossible]

Informal poll. Just post I'm not putting up an official poll. Not a bragging thing, but if we ever explore practice in conjunction to theory and opinion I'd like to see who has personal experience.

Who here has worked for min wage as an adult not living with parents and had to live on it for a number of years?

*raises hand*

[Napoleon Chynamite]

This is all kind of ironic. According to W. Phillips Shively's text Power and Choice, abolishing a system of guaranteed minimum wage was the first thing liberals did after gaining power in the British government in 1832 towards the end of the medieval European era. At the time, due to the conservative view of power as more of a responsibility and great honor as opposed to being seen as something to be distrusted (liberalism promotes this obviously), the conservatives were actually more in support of the powerful elites listening and catering to the interests, needs, and struggles of the poor in comparison to their liberal counterparts. I also find it interesting that socialist governments in northern Europe have in recent decades found a more center-rightish approach (towards conservatism) as much more workable because conservatism does not clash as much with the values of the welfare state as liberalism.

Admittedly, re: Britain, much of this support was probably reluctant on the part of the aristocracy, nobility, and members of the established church, who found the counter-liberal ideology of conservatism to be not-so-coincidentally convenient to their position and interests, but that's what they mean when they say ideologies take on lives of their own and shape the views and agenda of their followers as much as the reverse where the proponents of specific ideologies incorporate new or omit old elements and ultimately shape their system of thought over time.

[SunWuKong]

how about a variable minimum wage based on revenue of the businesses, with a baseline state or national minimum? would that work out? it basically forces businesses to pay a certain amount of their revenue to labour.

[Yeahman]

The living wage movement does not consult government reports about poverty lines and what is .01 above the poverty line. Living wage is about decent, dignified living and a chance to prosper esp if one was not born middle-class or above. And it ain't what Ronald Reagan made up about welfare queens living with fur coats on filet mignon. That's Karl Rove-type image manipulation.
OK the fact is that the living wage movement DOES consult government reports on poverty lines. The movement defines the living wage as the wage which a single mother of 3 would have to make in order to remain above the federal poverty line. Currently that's $9.75/hour.

The living wage movement NEVER talks about single persons with no dependents because they already make above living wage.

By what definition? I assume you're going by a federal guideline or economic term because of the specified use of living wage.
Federal poverty line which is defined as the point at which a person has all his basic needs and no discretionary disposal income. I believe it is calculated based on percentage of income spent on food. If you are below the poverty line, you are probably spending more than 20% of your income on food.

[jz87]

There are several reasons why the free market may not lead to a Pareto efficient outcome:

1) The wide disparity in information between the sellers (medical professionals) and the buyers (assymetry of information).
2) The extreme importance of healthcare to most people.
3) The fact that quality control demands that medical professionals belong to professional organizations that can exert monopolistic control over prices.
4) The importance of geographical proximity.
By "inflation", do you mean an increase in the money supply (not necessarily with a corresponding increase in prices), as the Austrian school is fond of defining it?

Yes, I do define inflation in the monetary sense. However, note also that as a result of this definition, prices changes can only occur to reflect changes in relative scarcity and therefore reflect real supply and demand rather than monetary distortions caused by inflation. In other words, under such a system, if the cost of living rises, it's because the daily necessities are actually becoming more scarce rather than just because the money is getting worthless. In this system there's no point in indexing wages to prices because since price changes are purely the effect of changes in relative scarcity.

[nola]

[QUOTE=ye110man]OK the fact is that the living wage movement DOES consult government reports on poverty lines. The movement defines the living wage as the wage which a single mother of 3 would have to make in order to remain above the federal poverty line. Currently that's $9.75/hour.

The living wage movement NEVER talks about single persons with no dependents because they already make above [QUOTE]

What is your source? What have you actually read about the living wage movement, if anything?

[John0101]

There are several reasons why the free market may not lead to a Pareto efficient outcome:

1) The wide disparity in information between the sellers (medical professionals) and the buyers (assymetry of information).
2) The extreme importance of healthcare to most people.
3) The fact that quality control demands that medical professionals belong to professional organizations that can exert monopolistic control over prices.
4) The importance of geographical proximity.

Also, the exact relationship between minimum-wage laws and unemployment isn't as clear-cut as it may seem; I think you're assuming a perfectly competitive market, whereas some research (c.f. Alan Manning) suggests that monopsony is common in labor markets, which would indicate that an increase in minimum wage would have a positive effect on employment. Also, efficiency wage hyphotheses suggest that in some markets, the most efficient wage is higher than the market cleared wage.


very nice. You sounded like my public economic professor.