State of China / Japan relationship? [Archive]

Faithless

01-15-2005, 11:36 AM

Anybody with a sense of China / Japan relationship, know what the overall state of this relationship is?

It seems, that from time-to-time, China puts pressure on Japan for this and that (moreso than it does on any other Asian country)?

Now, I think I understand the sentiment with Japanese dignitaries visiting that imfamous war shrine. I can understand the reparations movement. But what about some of the other ways that Japan urks China with Japanese politics?

Like receiving the Dalai Lama. Hasn't the Dalai Lama visited the US? Did China tell the US not to receive the Dalai Lama?

Chinese protesters demand Japan refuse Dalai Lama visit, kick out former Taiwan leader (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=8693&article=Chinese+protesters+demand+Japan+refuse+Dal ai+Lama+visit%2C+kick+out+former+Taiwan+leader)
AP[Thursday, December 30, 2004 15:13]
Chinese protesters demanded on Thursday that Japan refuse a visit by the Dalai Lama and expel Taiwan's former President Lee Teng-hui, as they burned a picture of Lee outside the Japanese Embassy in Beijing.

"We condemn Japan," the group of more than 40 demonstrators shouted in the brief police-sanctioned protest.

Beijing accuses Lee of promoting permanent independence for Taiwan _ a democratic, self-ruled island that China has claimed as part of its territory after the two split amid civil war in 1949 _ and has strongly protested Lee's vacation in Japan this week.

"We're still following closely the visit by Lee Teng-hui and we hope that the Japanese side will abide by their commitments by not allowing him to carry out any political activities," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said at a regular briefing.

He also urged Tokyo to "take measures to eliminate the negative impacts caused by Lee Teng-hui's visit."

Next year, China's legislature is to consider an anti-secession law directed at Taiwan's push for formal independence.

"The law and the process is totally for the sake of containing Taiwan independence," Liu said. "Lee Teng-hui is the chief representative of Taiwan independence."

The Dalai Lama reportedly plans to visit Japan in April. Liu said China has already demanded the Japanese "clarify the news" of the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader's trip.

China accuses the Dalai Lama of seeking independence for Tibet _ or trying to split the Chinese motherland. He has said he wants only autonomy for Tibet in order to protect its distinctive Buddhist culture.

China opposes trips by both figures to any country that has diplomatic relations with Beijing.

"Rein the horse at the edge of the cliff," a protest leader shouted into a megaphone. "Expel the Taiwan independence element Lee Teng-hui from Japan. Don't allow the splittist Dalai Lama to visit Japan."

Tao

01-15-2005, 11:58 AM

well i certainly did

Shogun Empress

01-15-2005, 12:00 PM

Anybody with a sense of China / Japan relationship, know what the overall state of this relationship is?[/URL]Disrespect. Down with communism.

John0101

01-15-2005, 03:51 PM

China is a communist state? I always thought it had a semi-free market economy with a totalitarian government.

Anyways, I don't know much about international relations but I believe China and Japan have a syngeric relationship. They are both large trading partners and they both have an incentive to keep North Korea nuclear gamble under control.

I wonder about the relationship between Taiwan and Japan. Does Japan recognize Taiwan as an independant state? If so will they be in favor of one country inorder to keep their relationship happy with the other?

jz87

01-15-2005, 06:44 PM

Disrespect. Down with communism.

Ditto.

Emperor_Mike

01-15-2005, 08:59 PM

It's a relationship shaped by political realism, which is how things ought to be. None of this "down with Communism," "down with Japan/China," "we are so angry with the Chinese/Japanese" crap will change the fact that both countries are getting on admirably, regardless of what the media and various talkings heads are saying.

SunWuKong

01-15-2005, 10:48 PM

eh. the Chinese government tells everybody not to receive the Dalai Lama or issue visas to high ranking pro-independence Taiwanese politicians.

yuuteya

01-15-2005, 11:19 PM

Chinese visit Japan? Yes, plenty do. In fact these days, South Koreans and Chinese are the top two groups to visit Japan, more than Americans or Europeans. The Japanese government welcomes them and wants more Asian tourists to come so they have been puting up tri-lingual signs in Japanese, Korean and Chinese, at train stations, airports and other public places to make it easier for Asian tourists. Recently the government launched this "Yokoso Japan" tourism campaign to attract more Asian tourists. Some of the Chinese and Koreans seem to like it, that they choose to move to Japan, become citizens so become Japanese themselves. I met a couple of Chinese students who seemed pretty happy theyd been approved, they also said they had other friends who were applying too. Also, more and more young Japanese who want to work in the tourist industry study Chinese and Korean languages. :smile:

For Chinese and Koreans, Japan beckons
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040726-055901-2327r.htm

yuuteya

01-16-2005, 12:16 AM

Economically China and Japan are in love, and its a sexy romance. :biggrin: Like theres so much economic interaction, trade, joint business ventures going on. Like I know this one Japanese guy who is working for two Chinese guys. They started an independent trade company in Osaka...

In the social side, like sooo many Chinese students choose to study in Japan, like theres so many Chinese students here and they are really happy to be here. Also more and more Japanese students are studying in China. Like a Japanese friend of mine, she's really happy to be going to somewhere up in Northern China this year for a one-year homestay. Chan Su Yi has become famous and is now doing TV commercials in Japan, and like this female traditional Chinese instrumental group was so popular last year. The local convenience store called Family Mart had like an Asian Year happening recently where Chinese and Korean snack and foods were on sale, etc, .... theres so much inter-Asian, Chinese-Japanese-Korean relationships happening in Asia that you guys never ever hear about.

That anti Japan/anti China stuff is done by extemist types, people with bad attitudes, whatever, then the media focusses on it. Then the people watch the news and read the newspaper, and they make one-sided generalizations. For those of you in America, or outside of Asia, you usually read just the English stuff or watch English reports which is from a White Euro-American point of view, and it usually likes to tell juicy stories of Asian slagging on other Asians. Images of Orientals not getting along or crapping on each other. Then people who live in North America end up assuming that the entire Chinese population hates Japan with a vengence, and the entire Japanese population is racist and militaristic. Terrible sterotypes and falsehoods... Wow. :frown:

I wonder about the relationship between Taiwan and Japan. Does Japan recognize Taiwan as an independant state? If so will they be in favor of one country inorder to keep their relationship happy with the other?

Japan does not recognise Taiwan as an "independent state" at all, and it will stay that way in consideration of China. But there was some issue recently because Japan issued a visitors visa to Taiwan's former leader so he could visit his friends in Kyoto, where he attended university in his younger days. China was not happy with it, but the visit commenced. Japan reasoned that he was not visiting as a politician, but only as a private citizen.

VV o n g B a

01-16-2005, 12:22 AM

That anti Japan/anti China stuff is done by extemist types, people with bad attitudes, whatever, then the media focusses on it. Then the people watch the news and read the newspaper, and they make one-sided generalizations. For those of you in America, or outside of Asia, you usually read just the English stuff or watch English reports which is from a White Euro-American point of view, and it usually likes to tell juicy stories of Asian slagging on other Asians. Images of Orientals not getting along or crapping on each other. Then people who live in North America end up assuming that the entire Chinese population hates Japan with a vengence, and the entire Japanese population is racist and militaristic. Terrible sterotypes and falsehoods... Wow. :frown:
i hate to contradict u here, i really do. but after visiting china, i got the feeling that even ppl who are normally very fair and clear eyed on most issues have problems w/ japan. like deep seated problems that don't necessarily respond to logic. i hope that what i observed was an outlier, but i suspect its not.

in japan, the chinese that u see probably all have favorable impressions or else they wouldn't be there. the ones u don't see and have unfavorable impressions might be more numerous that u think.

yuuteya

01-16-2005, 01:25 AM

i hate to contradict u here, i really do. but after visiting china, i got the feeling that even ppl who are normally very fair and clear eyed on most issues have problems w/ japan. like deep seated problems that don't necessarily respond to logic. i hope that what i observed was an outlier, but i suspect its not.
I believe you. As my Chinese friend told me, they have an education system in China that promotes Chinese patriotism in the students, like in a nationalistic way. The reason the Chinese government does this is because it believes that they need to promote a more proud Chinese identity, something they believed was lacking in the past. Like in the past China was easily taken advantage of by imperialists from Europe and Japan, in part because the people did not have as much a sense of patriotism in China and being Chinese. Thats how she put it.

People outside Japan, people in North America, have this stereotype that Japanese people in Japan cant seem to remember anything about World War 2, like they have amnesia about it, and that they dont know anything about the atrocities and crimes that were commited by the military. Well actually, Japanese people do know about it.

I remember seeing this show on reality TV here in Japan. Like these three college students three friends, a Korean girl, a Japanese guy, and Chinese-malaysian guy, they took a video-documentary of their trip across Asia, and it was on TV for a few weeks. In one episode they all went to Nanjing and buskered for cash in from of the train station singing with their guitars and tamborine in front of the gathering crowd. They all sang a Chinese song. Then one of the audience says :"Hey are youre a Japanese, arent you!?" The guy says "Yes". Then the man says "Who the #$%# do you think you are, get the $%& outta here, this is Nanjing you #$%#, you know what you did to us you #$%#$%"... The Japanese guy really took it in and was affected, they also visited the museum in Nanjing that exhibited stuff about the massacre. They showed in detail and talked about the massacre, the Japanese guy then went off along in front of the station and tried to apologize to everyone who passed him by, kids, adults, everybody. His 2 friends, the Korean girl and the Chinese-Malaysian guy, tried to talk him out of it, telling him that he didnt have to do that, and that they didnt blame him anything. But he did it anyway. Well, thats just one show. Theres other shows Ive seen that are aired on Japanese national TV talking about massacres in China by the military, showing graphic pictures, and about scientific experiments on humans beings.

As for Chinese students in Japan, since they also went through the Chinese education system that promote patriotism, I dont think they are any less proud of being Chinese nor less affected by the events of the past than those Chinese who stay in China. But I think that they choose to never forget the past, while at the same time moving on in a life together with their neighbors in Japan.

in japan, the chinese that u see probably all have favorable impressions or else they wouldn't be there. the ones u don't see and have unfavorable impressions might be more numerous that u think.[/QUOTE]

yuuteya

01-16-2005, 02:41 AM

Now, I think I understand the sentiment with Japanese dignitaries visiting that imfamous war shrine.

Yasukuni-Jinja is not specifically intended as "war shrine", like its not a shrine to promote war, but its just a shrine. Unfortunately, the shrine attendants have enshrined the names of some infamous tried and convicted war criminals in there. Sometimes their right-wing followers go there to pray and everyone else, even those who genuine believe in peace and pray for peace get lumped in. And so the whole place gets the image of being an evil "war shrine" and anyone who goes there to pray is instantly labelled as a worshipper of war. Thats not true. Not everyones name enshrined in there is a war criminal.

In a move to find a solution to make everyone happy, recently a government official from the ruling party tried to ask the shrine attendants to remove the names of the war criminals from the shrine. Then anyone who goes there to pray will not automatically be wrongly-accused of being a militarist or whatever. But the shrine attendants refused. If someone should be blamed for being hard-headed idiots who cant see reason, then it should be the specific shrine attendants, and not some stereotype of "the Japanese people"

Faithless

01-16-2005, 02:58 AM

Thanks for your take on the state of the relationship.

I read that article you posted.
Economically China and Japan are in love, and its a sexy romance. :biggrin: Like theres so much economic interaction, trade, joint business ventures going on. Like I know this one Japanese guy who is working for two Chinese guys. They started an independent trade company in Osaka...
...

.
Anyway, one thing I noticed in my readings of the economics between the two countries was this --

Japan's decision to stop giving big loans to China. If that's true, that's big isn't it?

Giver or Taker? China: An internal debate over aid underscores Beijing's struggle to cope with its new global role. (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6803430/site/newsweek/)
By Jonathan Ansfield. Newsweek.

Jan.17 issue - Two days after the seas engulfed their Asian neighbors, the Chinese hadn't offered much help: some $3 million in food and generators and a vague promise of more. With the body count mounting, policymakers at the Foreign Ministry began conferring with other ministries to hash out exactly how much more. They pitched an aid package of 500 million yuan ($60 million), by far the largest lump sum the communist country has ever donated abroad. But in a series of exchanges, according to one official involved, the czars of certain ministries balked at the number.

The debate underscores China's struggle to cope with its own rise as a global player. Beijing talks about being a world power and a patron of Asia's future, but it is just learning to act like one. Some bureaucrats invoked the familiar lament that China is still a "developing country," the official says. But the Foreign Ministry and others insisted that China's devastated neighbors needed a bigger gift, and that the world expected one given the country's economic surge. On New Year's Eve, to the surprise of some foreign policymakers, Politburo chiefs approved the $60 million.

The very next day, China's record offering was overshadowed by a promise of $350 million from the United States, after which Japan upped its own pledge from $30 million to $500 million. Japanese media interpreted the quick hike as a response to Beijing and Washington.

So much for not mixing aid with politics. Asia's two giants have tacitly competed for regional influence in recent years, so neither wants to be upstaged by the other in responding to the tsunami, says University of Pennsylvania political scientist Avery Goldstein. That is adding fuel to a debate in Japan over when to stop aid payments to China. In the quarter century since the two normalized ties, about $30 billion in loans and several billion dollars more in grants from Japan have bankrolled reservoirs and power plants on the mainland. China's government views the money as payback for Japan's military occupation in the 1930s and '40s. But with China's economy roaring and Japan's dragging, Tokyo has shaved some 20 percent annually off its development aid to China since 2000. After Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi expressed hope in November that China would "graduate" from Japanese aid, which still makes up more than half of China's annual aid total, Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing said China would be fine without it.

Some Japanese officials see the 2008 Beijing Olympics as a face-saving occasion to end aid. And, while history still matters to Beijing, the money itself doesn't. Behind $540 billion in foreign reserves, second only to Japan, China is on track to become more of a giver than a receiver. But, says the official, Beijing has its own problems to fix before it can call itself a "donor."

yuuteya

01-16-2005, 06:31 AM

Japan's decision to stop giving big loans to China. If that's true, that's big isn't it?

Yah, they said China is no longer the same "poor" country it was before so theres no more need to give aid. Whether the numerical figures prove that to be the case, or whether China no longer actually "needs" aid from Japan, is beside the point of this historical milestone event. Its a good thing, from a symbolic point of view, as China would be able to increase in its role as a rising responsible power for stability, together with Japan and South Korea, in Asia. China no longer getting Japanese aid money is a step to that direction, however long it would take. The sooner China "graduates" as they put it, then the sooner China, (United) Korea and Japan can jointly build the frameworks for something like an "Asian Union" kind of thing, like the EU. These things take tons of time and sweat, but Im optimistic it could happen in my lifetime! China, Japan, and Korea as a united Asian alliance is something Im holding out for, really, no dreamers joke. I believe it can happen. Yes, not so quickly and not so easily just like that, but if good attitudes and the sincerity and the means to back it up keep on, it can happen. I believe it. :smile:

Faithless

01-16-2005, 02:31 PM

Yah, they said China is no longer the same "poor" country it was before so theres no more need to give aid. Whether the numerical figures prove that to be the case, or whether China no longer actually "needs" aid from Japan, is beside the point of this historical milestone event. Its a good thing, from a symbolic point of view, as China would be able to increase in its role as a rising responsible power for stability, together with Japan and South Korea, in Asia. China no longer getting Japanese aid money is a step to that direction, however long it would take. The sooner China "graduates" as they put it, then the sooner China, (United) Korea and Japan can jointly build the frameworks for something like an "Asian Union" kind of thing, like the EU. These things take tons of time and sweat, but Im optimistic it could happen in my lifetime! China, Japan, and Korea as a united Asian alliance is something Im holding out for, really, no dreamers joke. I believe it can happen. Yes, not so quickly and not so easily just like that, but if good attitudes and the sincerity and the means to back it up keep on, it can happen. I believe it. :smile:
You say that you live in Japan.

Do you feel a sense of tension between the two countries when you look at the news affecting the two?

So, does Japan get out of the loan business with China in order to extend its credit card business with China instead?

Japanese credit card firm seeks China expansion (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-01/10/content_2439238.htm)
BEIJING, Jan. 10 -- JCB Co., Japan’s largest credit card company, plans to ally with Industrial & Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) and other Chinese lenders to increase fees from outside its home market where competition is increasing.

The closely held company is in talks with ICBC, China’s largest lender and as many as eight other companies, JCB executive vice president Masahiro Omoto said. The company said in September it signed a preliminary agreement with the Bank of China.

Expanding in China would help Tokyo-based JCB gain ground on Visa International Inc. and MasterCard International Inc. In Japan, Mizuho Financial Group Inc. and other banks are strengthening their credit-card businesses to boost market share.

“It’s becoming harder to survive within the Japanese market alone,’’ Omoto said. “The time has come for us to pursue real business overseas.’’

There are three cards for every 100 Chinese citizens, according to Japan Research Institute Ltd., a private research company based in Tokyo. By contrast, Visa estimates that each Japanese person has 2.57 credit cards on average.

JCB has about 51.6 million cardholders, mostly Japanese, and operates in 189 countries. Visa had 1.08 billion cards worldwide as of December 2003, including 203 million in Asia and more than 860,000 in China, according to its Web site. Asia accounted for 122 million of MasterCard’s 632 million cardholders at the end of 2003.

China, whose 1.3 billion people have household savings of US$1.5 trillion according to the People’s Bank of China, only lets local banks issue credit cards. Overseas banks won’t be able to offer local-currency loans to Chinese individuals until December 2006. JCB will offer the banks its brand name on the cards, enabling customers to use them at the 11.7 million restaurants and stores worldwide that accept the Japanese company’s card, in return for a fee.

JCB would be going up against stiff competition in China, said Minoru Hattori, an analyst at Okasan Holdings Inc. in Tokyo. “The major players are already in China,’’ he said.

There were about three million unsecured credit cards in China carrying the Visa logo as of September and the card company said last year that it expected to have 50 million customers in five years. China has three types of cards — debit cards linked to savings accounts, secured cards that require users to put up collateral and unsecured cards that don’t require collateral.

American Express, the world’s fourth-biggest credit card brand, is teaming up with ICBC to issue cards.

Citigroup Inc., the world’s largest financial services company, offers its credit cards with Shanghai Pudong Development Bank, in which it owns a 4.6 percent stake. HSBC Holdings sells credit cards with Bank of Shanghai and has also set up a three-year agreement to sell them through Bank of Communications.

Of the 51.6 million cardholders JCB had as of March 31, about four million were from outside Japan, Omoto said. About 500 Chinese citizens had JCB cards issued in Hong Kong, he said.

kimpossible

01-16-2005, 05:51 PM

So, after revisiting world history by reading various threads at YW, this question occured to me --

If there is a certain amount of hatred of old-Japan (and even the politics of todays' Japan), would Chinese with any sense of history ever waste their tourist money in Japan?

The difference between a vacation and political issues. It's not like Chinese are uncontrollably spitting angry at anything and everything Japanese for the sheer sake of hating them. The issues behind the tensions are deep and ever present but vacations are hardly a statement of acceptance of past war crimes, which seems to be at the heart of what you're really asking.

yuuteya

01-17-2005, 12:12 AM

You say that you live in Japan.
Do you feel a sense of tension between the two countries when you look at the news affecting the two?

One point with the question is the scope of "Japan" and "China". Like there are numerous aspects, ranges, levels to "China" and Japan". Is it the personal level of interacation, person to person, or at the offical diplomatic government level. Is it politics? Entertainment? Education? Sports? etc... Anyway in a nutshell, the picture is colorful and varied.

In international politics and all that, you do get sensational blotches, like Chinese doing Japan-bashing, Japanese stereotyping Chinese, a Chinese vessel slips into Japanese waters, disputes over islands, cannisters of nerve gas left in China, Japan calling China a security threat, etc..(I think we all know about the negative stuff focussed by the media since people always get fixated on juicy stories)

But I think that both governments understand that it is in their best long-term interest to stay in overall cooperation with each other, even though some specific points are rough. There are also behind-the-scenes, unpublicized interactions/working-groups between Japanese and Chinese political representatives that keep the discussion and interaction going. In East Asian cultures, issue resolution, the real discussions and effective communcation goes on behind closed doors, between the people who hold power. They try to reach mutual concensus over problems, for Asians its a long subtle process, then after something has been reached they notify the public and the press.

Dont always think in terms of the North American way of direct overt declared communications and overly verbal dispute resolutions, a debate overkill... "ok lets lay all the facts on the table" and "ok lets get down to the meat of it". It might seem odd to say, but sometimes talking overtly and making bold declarations is not always the best option and can even be a step in the wrong direction. And as such, you do get occasional scenes of Asian legislative representatives arguing and even fighting in an assembly, but thats because they didnt go the usual trusted and long-proven route of the behind-the-scenes concensus thing. Japan, China and Korean cultures are so intertwined and common in many aspects, even if people have become oblivious to it.

On the grass roots, person to person, daily level, it looks pretty good. There are many unreported, unpublicized personal/private social-cultural interactions between interest groups, NGOs, private citizens, private enterprizes, businesses, educational institutions.. heck even, joint BMX races, muscle-mania dance show, or DJs, scratchers, and mixers at the club, etc...Theres lots of interactions going on between regular ordinary Chinese and Japanese people every day, as Ive mentioned a few before...But you would not normally know about these as its not considered newsworthy, and even if it were, wound probably be written in a Chinese or Japanese local town paper, or something like that.

Overall, I think Japan and China are generally, gradually moving together, its slow and takes plenty of time, but I think they can succeed together as partners and good buddys. :smile:

AliBabaIncorporated

01-17-2005, 05:47 AM

I believe you. As my Chinese friend told me, they have an education system in China that promotes Chinese patriotism in the students, like in a nationalistic way. The reason the Chinese government does this is because it believes that they need to promote a more proud Chinese identity
Not really, as you correctly observe in your most recent post, both governments know it's not in their best interest to irritate the other. Japan is China's major source of technology transfer. And China especially has no interest in creating more angry people than they already have, since angry people hold protests and riots and smash things without being too particular about what they smash. After all, the June 4th incident started out as a protest about rising food prices; within a few weeks, the students were advocating total revolution.

The problem is that Chinese people themselves never got over being colonized and humiliated by the Japanese, and now, as society liberalizes, they're finding more and more forums (like the internet) to express the anger that they've kept boiling for decades.

AliBabaIncorporated

01-17-2005, 05:56 AM

Napoleon Chynamite

01-17-2005, 06:23 AM

Most Chinese people I know who have visited Japan recently are more in their 30s and 40s. A lot of them are businessmen with a dumbass fetish for Japanese girls as being adorable, light-skinned, and oh-so-innocent. (Oh yeah, and they're always sure to tell me that Japanese girls walk with their toes pointing inward ... what the fuck does this have to do with anything?)

Maybe it turns them on? Haha I dunno. But I guess the feet pointing inward thing may be due to the genetic bowlegged tendencies that I've heard of in reference to Japanese people. But whatever, I have no idea.

I don't meet a lot of mainland kids (20-somethings, etc) who want to go to Japan. (I think this generation are more anti-Japanese than their parents, actually. Or maybe it's cuz I only meet rich adults in the course of my job/networking, but I know kids my own age from various class backgrounds). SE Asia and Europe are the big destinations. A lot want to go see the US too, but can't get a visa.

Yeah whenever you think of Chinese Japanophiles, usually due to certain factors/reasons (mostly historical I suppose) the Taiwanese and HK'ers (and maybe Singaporeans and ABC's looking to latch onto some overseas Pan-Asian identity) come to mind as the main culprits rather than the mainlanders.

jz87

01-17-2005, 07:34 AM

I've been to Yasukuni Jinja in Tokyo, it's really not a big deal. Yes, the exhibits blame everybody else for WWII, but so what, everyone blames everyone else. China blames Japan for WWII, Japane blames the US for WWII, and the US blames Japan.

Actually, I watched a documentary while I was there and it's eerily similar to the propaganda films that the Chinese communists show in China. Down to the tone of voice that the narrator used.

Personally I don't blame the Japanese for invading China and Korea and trying to colonize East Asia. China annexed Xin Jiang and Tibet, Russia took Siberia, Britain took India, France took Indo-china, the US took the Philliphines, the Dutch took Indonesia (Dutch East Indies) and every major European power had concessions in China. If Japan didn't expand, they'd be next. A small island country like Japan doesn't have a prayer against the European powers without a buffer zone extending out from the home islands. The fact that Russia also had its eyes on Manchuria is lost on many Chinese nationalists. The only reason that it turned out to be the Japanese that got to invade Manchuria and China is because the Russians lost in the Russo-Japanese war and was in no position to do the same. I consider that a good thing because a war against an even bigger continental power like Russia would be much harder to win for China.

yoMAMA

01-17-2005, 12:57 PM

well i certainly did

sellout!

:wink:

Tao

01-17-2005, 03:52 PM

sellout!

:wink:

it's true...my secret desire is to become a japanese school girl

VV o n g B a

01-17-2005, 04:02 PM

Maybe it turns them on? Haha I dunno. But I guess the feet pointing inward thing may be due to the genetic bowlegged tendencies that I've heard of in reference to Japanese people. But whatever, I have no idea.bowleggedness means feet and knees pointed outwards, not inwards. dunno what inwards is... maybe its called gottapissleggedness?

YuheiCarreau

01-18-2005, 09:25 AM

bowleggedness means feet and knees pointed outwards, not inwards. dunno what inwards is... maybe its called gottapissleggedness?

I think feet pointing inwards is called pigeontoed. Any woman in a kimono will walk pigeontoed, as it wraps around the legs in a way that restricts a normal stride.

deez nuts

01-18-2005, 10:24 AM

MovingForward

01-18-2005, 01:39 PM

AngryABCGirl

01-19-2005, 02:02 AM

I definitely did, but it's not like I'm forgiving in any way of their war crimes. There's a difference. White people like eating Chinese take-out and putting chopsticks in their hair, but it's not like they accept our culture.

kimpossible

01-19-2005, 10:38 AM

merged but what the hell? i guess it sorts chronologically by post date. *shrug*

yoMAMA

01-19-2005, 08:05 PM

Faithless

01-20-2005, 11:18 AM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/01/19/international/lett.184.1.jpg

the dreaded yasukuni shrine

Japan-China relationship: sweet and sour (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/international/asia/19letter.html?8hpib)
Very good article.
Then the Japanese government capped the year by granting a visa to Lee Teng-hui, the former Taiwan president, for a private visit, a move that infuriated the Chinese.
But are those events really connected in a united anti-Japanese campaign?

I mean, you have the Chinese Nationals, who scorn the visit to the shrines.

Then you have the Chinese government chiding Japan for accepting Lee Teng-Hui.

On the one hand, it's the Chinese citizenry that's up in arms. On the other hand, it's just the government.

Or do Chinese citizens also feel the same way about Lee Teng-Hui or Taiwan's independence in general?

Yu Huang Da Di

01-22-2005, 04:56 PM

Tao

01-22-2005, 05:02 PM

in my opinion, the chinese should nuke that island, and let motehr nature and her earthquakes do the rest. they dont even apologise for the crimes they commited, they are even worse than Hitler and his regime. the only way to make them realise is to do the same to them. kill 20 million of them and see them recover. china is often criticised of its human rights, but where's the criticism for japan? does raping and killing 35 million people count as a human right?

ummm dude, calm the fuck down. if you do a search of all the previous china and korea vs japan threads, you'll see tons of dissapproval as to what the japanese did. no need to rehash the same ol' bit.

kimpossible

01-22-2005, 05:11 PM

Chu Chi

01-22-2005, 07:07 PM

in my opinion, the chinese should nuke that island, and let motehr nature and her earthquakes do the rest. they dont even apologise for the crimes they commited, they are even worse than Hitler and his regime. the only way to make them realise is to do the same to them. kill 20 million of them and see them recover. china is often criticised of its human rights, but where's the criticism for japan? does raping and killing 35 million people count as a human right?

I disagree.

Chinese people and Japanese people should not mistreat each other.

Instead, both peoples should work together using their well known skills to create and manufacture things of constructive value for all people.

This would be a better.

They could even do what White people in Europe are doing and form a "United States of ChiPan"

CC

YuheiCarreau

01-23-2005, 11:47 AM

I disagree.

Chinese people and Japanese people should not mistreat each other.

Instead, both peoples should work together using their well known skills to create and manufacture things of constructive value for all people.

This would be a better.

They could even do what White people in Europe are doing and form a "United States of ChiPan"

CC

And in 20 or 30 years, we can have WW3: ChiPan vs. EU vs. Australasia vs. MexAmeriCanada!

Chu Chi

01-23-2005, 06:42 PM

And in 20 or 30 years, we can have WW3: ChiPan vs. EU vs. Australasia vs. MexAmeriCanada!

Not at all.

White people are through killing each other. From here on out, if theres a war, its either going to be White people fighting non white people, or non white people fighting each other.

Im old enough to remember when "made in Japan" meant "its a peice of crap".

Not any more.

Nowadays, almost everything I have, including my car is somehow connected to Japan or China.

This state of affairs bothers many people.

Therefore, I suspect they will be steered into conflict with each other.

CC

nola

01-23-2005, 08:37 PM

White people are through killing each other. From here on out, if theres a war, its either going to be White people fighting non white people, or non white people fighting each other.That's so true. That's why everyone was sooooo concerned about Bosnia. Oh my God, they're WHITE people just like us! Where's Rwanda anyways?

Tao

01-23-2005, 09:25 PM

Not at all.

White people are through killing each other. From here on out, if theres a war, its either going to be White people fighting non white people, or non white people fighting each other.

Im old enough to remember when "made in Japan" meant "its a peice of crap".

Not any more.

Nowadays, almost everything I have, including my car is somehow connected to Japan or China.

This state of affairs bothers many people.

Therefore, I suspect they will be steered into conflict with each other.

CC

sweet, my very first race war....i think i have something in my eye

deez nuts

01-24-2005, 12:08 PM

i think i have something in my eye

**zips up pants**

sorry about that.

Tao

01-24-2005, 06:10 PM

**zips up pants**

sorry about that.

hahaha, you bastard :tongue:

VV o n g B a

01-26-2005, 08:27 AM

more good news...

------------------------

Murder most foul befouls Japan-China ties
By J Sean Curtin

A Chinese provincial court has found two Chinese nationals guilty of the brutal murder in June 2003 of an entire Japanese family in in Japan's southern Fukuoka prefecture. The long-awaited verdict in the highly emotional, high-profile trial has gripped Japan and heightened anti-Chinese sentiment.

On Monday, Yang Ning, 24, and Wang Liang, 22, were found guilty of the slaying of the Shinjiro Matsumoto family. Yang was sentenced to death, while Wang received life imprisonment. Wang's lesser punishment was immediately condemned as too lenient by a large swath of the Japanese media that generally reacted negatively to the news.

The third Chinese accused, Wei Wei, is currently on trial at the Fukuoka District Court, and a verdict is not expected for some time in the slow-moving Japanese court system.

Monday's ruling is likely to complicate already severely strained Sino-Japanese political ties and probably will increase the rising tide of anti-Chinese feeling in Japan, already at an all-time high. The case has also stoked deep resentment within Japan's large Chinese community, which feels media coverage is generally biased and anti-Chinese. They complain that similar cases of murder committed by Japanese criminals never received such sensationalist treatment. Now they fear right-wing politicians will exploit renewed media interest in the case, further advancing resurgent neo-nationalist xenophobia.

full story (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/GA27Dh01.html)

Chu Chi

01-26-2005, 09:00 AM

**zips up pants**

sorry about that.

oh my God!

CB...

(((shakes head)))

You just don't stop...

That was cold...ice cold...

CC

AliBabaIncorporated

01-26-2005, 09:21 AM

On Monday, the Liaoyang City Intermediate People's Court in Liaoning province, northeastern China, finally sentenced Yang to death and Wang to a life term for what it described as an "atrocious and cruel" crime. The Japanese media were upset that both men had not received the death sentence and did not disguise their dissatisfaction. Even supposedly neutral NHK News labeled the ruling "unusual".
Hey, beats what Mexicans who commit crimes in the US usually get ... cuz Mexico;s government refuses to extradite people who could face even life sentences, calling it "cruel and unusual punishment." (Unless of course, the criminals in question are naturalized Mexicans, like that Basque they shipped back to Spain a while ago).

Of course the sentencing was probably entirely politically motivated and has nothing to do with laws. But at least the judges yielded to the government rather than to mob rule. One of the bastards got what he deserves, and the other has a whole lifetime coming to him. So do they sodomize prisoners in China too, or is it just the standard third-world beatings, starvation, and solitary-confinement in a 4-foot tall cell?

And one other thing I don't get ...

To their disappointment, the inhuman deed netted the gang just 37,000 yen in cash (about US$350), all the money Matsumoto had in his bank account ... On returning to Liaoning after fleeing Japan, Wang immediately started work, but soon aroused the suspicion of local police by "spending extravagantly" with the stolen money.
I really wanna know what you can buy with your share of $350 split 3 ways that would attract the attention of police ...

Tao

01-26-2005, 09:26 AM

oh my God!

CB...

(((shakes head)))

You just don't stop...

That was cold...ice cold...

CC

it's ok, you're still my number one

kimpossible

01-26-2005, 09:35 AM

oh my God!

CB...

(((shakes head)))

You just don't stop...

That was cold...ice cold...

CC

no, no. it was wet and warm. :biggrin:

SunWuKong

01-26-2005, 12:12 PM

I really wanna know what you can buy with your share of $350 split 3 ways that would attract the attention of police ...

depends on where exactly he was spending this money. in the rural areas where people still retain the village mentality, $350 USD can be very noticeable.

yoMAMA

01-26-2005, 11:48 PM

why can't we be friends? [turns on the tune] :wink:

http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/asia/images/covers/501041129cov_white.gif

from Time Asia

Asia's Odd Couple

The region's future depends on whether China and Japan can get along. Are the countries' leaders up to the task?

BY HANNAH BEECH

For centuries, Japan was a tribute state of mighty china. But in A.D. 607, Japan's Prince Shotoku sent to Sui dynasty China an emissary, who startled his hosts by addressing the Chinese Emperor as an equal. We come from the land "where the sun rises," announced the Japanese ambassador, while referring to China as the land "where the sun sets." Countless sunrises and sunsets later, Asia is still caught between the orbits of its two great powers, each one now imbued with a renewed sense of confidence about its position in the world.

Last weekend, Hu Jintao, President of the world's presumptive superpower, and Junichiro Koizumi, Prime Minister of the world's second-largest economy, met at the APEC summit in Chile. Tensions between the two nations had boiled up after a Chinese nuclear submarine veered into Japanese waters for several days starting on Nov. 10. Japan immediately lodged a formal complaint with China, but Beijing remained silent. Finally, Tokyo said it received a brief expression of "regret" from China, instead of the more wholehearted apology Japan surely wanted.

The Santiago summit was a rare meeting between the current leaders of Asia's two powers. Despite a year filled with flash points—ranging from disputes over the ownership of a sprinkling of islands in the East China Sea to the heckling of Japanese fans at an August soccer match in Beijing—neither Hu nor Koizumi has made reciprocal visits to the other's nation. Because of his repeated trips to Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, where several of Japan's most notorious World War II criminals are honored, Koizumi has been unwelcome in Beijing. Hu has found time to tour Gabon and Algeria but has yet to visit Tokyo.

Economically, the two nations have never been closer. Japan is China's largest trading partner, while only the U.S. trades more with Japan than China does. But politically, the Asian heavyweights are barely talking. Nowhere are attitudes more alarming than among the nations' youth. In China, many young people, primed by years of "patriotic education," feel their island neighbor hasn't done enough soul searching over its brutal war record. In Japan, youngsters are tired of apologizing for what their grandfathers did, and some are calling for their country to emerge from its pacifist shell.

Asia's century—the world's, too—will surely be partly shaped by how the two great East Asian powers get along. It's not too late for Chinese and Japanese politicians to follow the example of many of their business leaders, who have long understood that the interpenetration of the two economies works to the benefit of all. If the Chinese and Japanese political classes fail to live up to the challenge, muscular nationalism will gain strength among those who will one day lead Asia. We may all then find that the path the sun travels has become far more perilous than Prince Shotoku or the Sui Emperor ever imagined.

yuuteya

01-27-2005, 01:38 PM

why can't we be friends? [turns on the tune] :wink:

The Quote of the Century! :wink:

loserbutt

01-30-2005, 08:04 PM

hey chu chu, go play some starcraft

ninjah 55

02-04-2005, 11:46 AM

Major props to Yuuteya for her dream of an Asian Union..... yes, unspeakable atrocities have held back the emotional bonding of Asian countries and Japan but it seems that everywhere in the world, alot of healing's been going on especially over WW2.... that generation called "the greatest generation" in America sadly is passing as is alot of ignorance about the Japanese people. We need to clearly differentiate between Japanese people, the government, the military....Also, Japan's present and past. I was born in Japan and left when I was 5 and raised in Louisiana, North Carolina and Texas....my grandfather in 1939 protested the invasion of Manchuria.... there was an anti-war sentiment in Japan and many were imprisoned and worse...I asked him about it since my ignorant American knowledge and attittude begged an answer....he said many opposed the War but when the government run by the military-industrial complex convinced the Emperor, they had to comply.... sound familiar? Same ol' stuff.....my experience of the Japanese people especially the young people typically suffer from their love of American culture and are alarmingly becoming or are sadly picking up the same ignorant, self-centered bubble of the typical Americans( the "red" states). But its not true for the whole of the society as in America.... we have to dream the dream before it manifests...the alternative is not really a choice I want leave to my kids to live with......

Faithless

02-25-2005, 11:14 PM

Japan-China relations rocky: Countries grow more wary even as both become more prosperous (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/nation/10947691.htm)

Posted on Sun, Feb. 20, 2005 * By Tim Johnson * Washington Bureau * 1/83/8

TOKYO | Hardly a month goes by without new irritants in relations between Japan and China. Recent grievances include a soccer riot, a submarine intrusion, dominion over a lighthouse and the granting of a visa to an octogenarian.

The public mood in each country is souring toward the other, prompting some experts to wonder whether leaders will keep a lid on nationalistic tensions. Both countries are important to stability in Asia and the U.S. economy: Japan is the world's second-largest economy, and China is a new power after two decades of growth.

It might seem the two countries have little to complain about. Trade ties grow more robust each year. Last year, China - including Hong Kong - surpassed the United States as Japan's top trading partner. Japan can credit its fragile economic recovery to surging growth in China.

But the two nations compete for regional influence and reliable energy supplies. Political relations may be at their lowest point in decades as Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's government becomes more assertive toward China, ending a policy of seeking to avoid confrontation.

In an important sign of that shift, Japan and the United States said they had a common interest in the issue of Taiwan's security. China views Taiwan as part of its territory and has never renounced the right to use military power to take it over.

The comments about Taiwan came after a meeting with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, visiting Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura and Defense Agency chief Yoshinori Ono. The meeting focused on U.S.-Japan strategic cooperation in a post-Sept. 11, 2001, world, especially concerning North Korea's nuclear weapons program.

Rice said the ministers talked about "our desire for cooperative relations with China, our desire to ensure that the cross [Taiwan] strait issues can be resolved peacefully."

Japan and China haven't held regular summit meetings since Koizumi came to office in 2001. Both sides keep putting off meetings, citing grievances.

"People on both sides see the other as potential adversaries," said Takashi Inoguchi, a political scientist at the University of Tokyo.

The latest conflict centers on five uninhabited isles, known by the Japanese as the Senkaku Islands and by the Chinese as the Diaoyu. The islands are in the East China Sea, 125 miles northeast of Taiwan, near a continental shelf containing pockets of natural gas.

A painful history underlies current problems between Japan and China. Japan occupied much of China in the 1930s and '40s, until the end of World War II, and Japanese soldiers committed atrocities and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Newspapers regularly complain about Japan's failure to clean up some 700,000 chemical-weapon canisters left behind by its army in northeast China.

Chinese voice deep consternation over Koizumi's annual visits to the Yasukuni shrine, which honors Japanese war dead, including war criminals. Beijing says it's watching closely to see if he insists on going this year, the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II.

Relations have gone downhill after an incident in Beijing in August. When a Chinese team lost an Asia Cup soccer match to a visiting Japanese team, police squads stood by as rampaging fans burned Japanese flags, taunted Japanese players and smashed a window of the Japanese ambassador's car. The rioting trapped some 2,000 Japanese fans in the stadium.

Many Japanese feel that China's leaders tolerate, or even foment, anti-Japanese sentiment as an outlet for frustrations as they crush political dissent.

On Nov. 10, Japan detected a Chinese submarine in its territorial waters and chased it away, drawing a belated and mild apology from Beijing. The intrusion was seen as a sign that China is projecting naval power deep into the Pacific Ocean at Japan's expense.

"China's military strategy has become even more assertive in the oceans," said Ikuo Kayahara, a former lieutenant general in Japan's Self-Defense Forces, noting that he thinks China wants control of waters as far as the mid-Pacific Ocean.

For its part, China reacted angrily in December when Tokyo granted a visa to an 82-year-old former president of Taiwan, Lee Teng-hui, to spend his year-end holidays in Japan. Chinese authorities view Lee, who was educated in Japan and has long ties to the nation, as an architect of Taiwan's push for independence.

Last month, for the first time ever, the Japanese government named China as a security concern, along with North Korea.

Japan is discussing slashing its development aid to China, which only recently has dipped below $1 billion a year. Many Chinese view the aid as disguised wartime reparations for Japan's occupation of China and see no reason for it to end.