The Spread of English

[yuuteya]

Just a reflection... After centuries of successive British and US global military and cultural expansions, the English language has been spread around the world. Today there is a growing English language teaching industry in Asia. More Asians are encouraged to speak English. Some see it as a necessity. What do you think about more people speaking English around the world? Is it to the detrement and expense of non-English speaking cultures? How about in Asia where English has been spreading. As more Asians understand English, so they can access more English language materials/media/cultural forms from the more economically powerful media of English-speaking Western countries. English is sometimes called the global language that promotes unity. Are there any consequences? Should non-English languages be promoted as lingua francas as well? Are there hidden forms of discrimination in all of this? Where does all of this leave Asian languages and cultures? :confused:

[SunWuKong]

English is currently the international language of choice. i don't think it's a bad thing for people in Asia to learn English, as long as it's not encouraged that English replace their native tongues.

the biggest negative consequence, ironically, is really to the English language itself. as more and more cultures of people take part of the "ownership" of English by speaking it and practicing it, it'll be infused with local vocabulary depending on where you go. it basically dilutes the authenticity of the English language.

[asvenus]

SWK do you really see this as a 'negative' consequence or just a factor of modernity..because really even the 'English' promoted as RP (received pronunciation) which is supposed to be the top form if youre a real snob is derived mainly from Latin, actual so-called authentic English is mainly from a Germanic origin and sounds/looks dreadful, bordering on illiteracy...English is a bastard language and should be touted as such...

i understand that it is deemed 'necessary' to learn English in many countries, what annoys me about it is the assumed superiority of an English speaker ro English speaking peoples...

[MovingForward]

Just a reflection... After centuries of successive British and US global military and cultural expansions, the English language has been spread around the world. Today there is a growing English language teaching industry in Asia. More Asians are encouraged to speak English. Some see it as a necessity. What do you think about more people speaking English around the world? Is it to the detrement and expense of non-English speaking cultures? How about in Asia where English has been spreading. As more Asians understand English, so they can access more English language materials/media/cultural forms from the more economically powerful media of English-speaking Western countries. English is sometimes called the global language that promotes unity. Are there any consequences? Should non-English languages be promoted as lingua francas as well? Are there hidden forms of discrimination in all of this? Where does all of this leave Asian languages and cultures? :confused:

Great post. I kill myself learning Mandarin because I dearly love it, and so the post and article brings out some yearnings and musings on my end. But it also hangs me up on the word "necessity" - I can't quite by that necessity thing.

If you can forgive my ignorance of most Asian cultures and for the bit I have experienced with Chinese immigrants, I submit that English isn't close to establishing itself as necessity.

The article addresses the "necessity" of English in Asian countries as marketed by same to students and citizens. I appreciate and respect this marketing of English by China et al. World travel, social interaction, and the prestige of commanding multiple languages is important enough in China, for instance, that children grow to be adults who grow to visit the United States and promptly dialogue with me in English in the most modest cases at a beginner-intermediate level without stumbling.

Translate to "necessity"? Ah, I'm not quite seeing it.

ESL is booming - English usage is not. People are having a fairly good time learning English because it doesn't break the bank in China or here in the U.S., one doesn't have to attend Harvard or live in the United States or England or Canada or Australia for 1-2 years at a cost of $20-30,000 in order to find someone that will cheaply deliver reasonably appropriate English in the classroom, and with some persistence, one can make a comfortable living studying English for 30-60 minutes weekly, going to 5-6 hours of class weekly, and ultimately using a native language for 160 hours weekly.

I don't see the ESL trend evolving into a necessity - as English erodes and mysteries of it decline, and as the United States becomes less of a mover and shaker...well, you get it.

Personally I'll never dismiss English in such fashion despite whatever global dismissal takes place - English is my mom and Mandarin is my love. I can argue with Mandarin about who's turn it is to do the dishes and walk off in a huff with a "yeah, well so you say..." but English won't tolerate such behavior from me. Anybody need an ESL teacher with poor grammar and good intentions?

[SunWuKong]

SWK do you really see this as a 'negative' consequence or just a factor of modernity..because really even the 'English' promoted as RP (received pronunciation) which is supposed to be the top form if youre a real snob is derived mainly from Latin, actual so-called authentic English is mainly from a Germanic origin and sounds/looks dreadful, bordering on illiteracy...English is a bastard language and should be touted as such...

well that depends on what you think of the English language right? if i understand you correctly, you are saying there is no real "authenticity" to English?

i understand that it is deemed 'necessary' to learn English in many countries, what annoys me about it is the assumed superiority of an English speaker ro English speaking peoples...

yeah. a lot of times English-speaking skills are more valued than a lot of much more useful skills, and that's really dumb.

[deez nuts]

i see nothing wrong with the spread of the english language in asian countries. in fact, it's a good thing.

i think all american junior high and high schools should offer an asian language course especially chinese and japanese. the usual junk choices of french and spanish isn't practical and doesn't have real world applications. what are the chances of france and mexico of ever becoming a major dominant power anyways?

[SunWuKong]

i see nothing wrong with the spread of the english language in asian countries. in fact, it's a good thing.

i think all american junior high and high schools should offer an asian language course especially chinese and japanese. the usual junk choices of french and spanish isn't practical and doesn't have real world applications. what are the chances of france and mexico of ever becoming a major dominant power anyways?

well, French can be useful for the northern states, and Spanish is useful anyway because there are so many Latinos around nowadays. i've been in many situations where it would have helped if i spoke Spanish.

[deez nuts]

well, French can be useful for the northern states,

i can't respect a pussy country like france. great britain should take it over.

and Spanish is useful anyway because there are so many Latinos around nowadays. i've been in many situations where it would have helped if i spoke Spanish.

yeah when the delivery food guy comes or the guy that changes your charcoal and grill when you eat korean bbq.

[applehead]

i've been in many situations where it would have helped if i spoke Spanish.
of if they spoke english.
oh well!

[Chad]

yeah when the delivery food guy comes or the guy that changes your charcoal and grill when you eat korean bbq.
that's slightly offensive. i'd really be offended if I were Latino.. i'm sure they don't appreciate being stereotyped as menial laborers. isn't this exactly the sort of thing that this forum is all about? combating racial/ethnic stereotyping?
anyways.. Spanish is a useful language and is becoming more so in the US as the Spanish-speaking population increases and takes more power.

[SunWuKong]

i can't respect a pussy country like france. great britain should take it over.

well, i'm really talking about Canada. but i know you'd probably say that the US should take Canada over. :rolleyes:

[SunWuKong]

of if they spoke english.
oh well!


yes. or if they spoke English. :tongue:
but that's ok. they're all just trying to make a living with what they have like everybody else.

[SunWuKong]

that's slightly offensive. i'd really be offended if I were Latino.. i'm sure they don't appreciate being stereotyped as menial laborers. isn't this exactly the sort of thing that this forum is all about? combating racial/ethnic stereotyping?
anyways.. Spanish is a useful language and is becoming more so in the US as the Spanish-speaking population increases and takes more power.

hate to sound like i'm stereotyping, but in my own personal experience, it really has been interactions with people like busboys at restaurants or other menial labourers where Spanish would have been useful.

but one particular instance it was because a little Latino girl about 2 or 3 years old got lost in my neighborhood and we found her. couldn't communicate with her because she didn't seem like she spoke English and we don't speak Spanish.

but either way, personally i think it's always good to learn another language. and Spanish is probably the most useful second language to have in the US just because there is a sizable Latino population in most cities.

[deez nuts]

well, i'm really talking about Canada. but i know you'd probably say that the US should take Canada over. :rolleyes:

that's right!

that's slightly offensive. i'd really be offended if I were Latino.. i'm sure they don't appreciate being stereotyped as menial laborers. isn't this exactly the sort of thing that this forum is all about? combating racial/ethnic stereotyping?
anyways.. Spanish is a useful language and is becoming more so in the US as the Spanish-speaking population increases and takes more power.

it's not like i included the dudes that mow my lawn too. HA..j/k.

hate to sound like i'm stereotyping, but in my own personal experience, it really has been interactions with people like busboys at restaurants or other menial labourers where Spanish would have been useful.


well it's not stereotyping more so generalizing. but, hey that's the only time i found that speaking spanish would probably come into some use. oh and at the hospital with my patients, but i normally call for a translator.

years back over here, there was actually talk about a proposal to make healthcare workers learn basic spanish. i thought the idea was stupid as hell and utter bullshit.

[asvenus]

well that depends on what you think of the English language right? if i understand you correctly, you are saying there is no real "authenticity" to English?



yeah. a lot of times English-speaking skills are more valued than a lot of much more useful skills, and that's really dumb.

there isnt really any 'authenticity' in the English language at all..it is an amalgamation of Germanic and Latin languages sitting often unhappily (and nonsensically) together...and of course infused with many other langugaes such as a good deal of Hindi...the worst thing i think thats happening to the 'English' language at present is that its becoming more and more 'Americanised'...you people need to learn how to spell :tongue: ..heh heh...what what !!:tongue:

CB..why is France a 'pussy' country??

[SunWuKong]

years back over here, there was actually talk about a proposal to make healthcare workers learn basic spanish. i thought the idea was stupid as hell and utter bullshit.

i thought schools in NYC teach Spanish from elementary school on? i remembered i had to take Spanish when i landed in NYC. (my family didn't stay in NYC long enough for me to learn shit though.)

don't you know enough Spanish by now?

[SunWuKong]

there isnt really any 'authenticity' in the English language at all..it is an amalgamation of Germanic and Latin languages sitting often unhappily (and nonsensically) together...and of course infused with many other langugaes such as a good deal of Hindi...the worst thing i think thats happening to the 'English' language at present is that its becoming more and more 'Americanised'...you people need to learn how to spell :tongue: ..heh heh...what what !!:tongue:

well, ok, i'll take your word for it, you being someone who was taught English by authentic Brits. :tongue:

but if you were to describe English as an amalgamation of Germanic and Latin languages, couldn't you also say the same (that there's no real authenticity) about almost every other languages out there?

[nonamerasian]

i thought schools in NYC teach Spanish from elementary school on? i remembered i had to take Spanish when i landed in NYC. (my family didn't stay in NYC long enough for me to learn shit though.)

don't you know enough Spanish by now?

Not all schools, and for the schools I know of that do that, usually it's for some of the advanced children and some of the children with Spanish-speaking backgrounds.

Some kids have the option to take French or some other language instead.

[SunWuKong]

Not all schools, and for the schools I know of that do that, usually it's for some of the advanced children and some of the children with Spanish-speaking backgrounds.

Some kids have the option to take French or some other language instead.

oh ok. well the classes my cousins and i took definitely weren't advanced. i think it was just average, and there were some advanced classes. and most of the school was made up of black kids. this was in Brooklyn.

[deez nuts]

i thought schools in NYC teach Spanish from elementary school on? i remembered i had to take Spanish when i landed in NYC. (my family didn't stay in NYC long enough for me to learn shit though.)

don't you know enough Spanish by now?

i wasn't here for elementary school so i don't know.

i chose french during my high school years cuz my momma told me to. it's been basically useless to me.

i've picked up some shit here and there mostly during my free clinic rotations. but, the extent of my spanish is "no hablo espanol." besides, i already know mandarin fluently so i get the bulk and responsibility of the mandarin speaking patient pool. i mean what the hell do they want me to be? an united nations translator?

[Craig]

In Texas, we were required to take Spanish classes in elementary and middle school.

[Balthus Dire]

I think English is OK to be used as the international language of communication. The problem is that when everyone begins to speak it, there will still be minor problems with the local dialects and "slang" throughout the world. Everybody speaks English differently--even inside the USA. Then in places like Australia where there's slang for almost every word in the dictionary and they take after the Brittish English. The reason why American English is getting popular in Japan is because of the Hollywood movies.

[Chad]

that's right!
years back over here, there was actually talk about a proposal to make healthcare workers learn basic spanish. i thought the idea was stupid as hell and utter bullshit.
Yeah I guess being able to communicate with people is a truly asinine idea.

[deez nuts]

Yeah I guess being able to communicate with people is a truly asinine idea.

of course it isn't.

that's why there's a plethora of spanish speaking translators.

[yuuteya]

But what happens to non-English writings? Like if no one can read them or no one wants to bother with reading a non-English book than the ideas in that book are never considered. If everyone gets together only via English then only ideas written in English get considered as globally worthy,

Like look around the world, when people refer to ideas or concepts they always reference a European or Western thinker or writer. I also think the English publishing industry in the West likes the expansion of English so that they can sell more books. What happens to non-English works if they ghetto stuck only in their own country. Wouldnt they become ghettoized? And what happens to the value of non-Western thinkers and non-Western ideas. Unless theres an English translation or unless you can read that non-Western language, then that work goes unnoticed and unappreaciated. Non-Western languages are devalued, while English is over valued.

If everone can only read in English than wouldnt they be missing out on the ideas locked away in another language. Do you think only English should be the single global international language? Wouldn't promoting several international global languages be better so that the worlds thinking and ideas doesnt get lop-sided all to the English side.

[MovingForward]

But what happens to non-English writings? Like if no one can read them or no one wants to bother with reading a non-English book than the ideas in that book are never considered. If everyone gets together only via English then only ideas written in English get considered as globally worthy,

Like look around the world, when people refer to ideas or concepts they always reference a European or Western thinker or writer. I also think the English publishing industry in the West likes the expansion of English so that they can sell more books. What happens to non-English works if they ghetto stuck only in their own country. Wouldnt they become ghettoized? And what happens to the value of non-Western thinkers and non-Western ideas. Unless theres an English translation or unless you can read that non-Western language, then that work goes unnoticed and unappreaciated. Non-Western languages are devalued, while English is over valued.

If everone can only read in English than wouldnt they be missing out on the ideas locked away in another language. Do you think only English should be the single global international language? Wouldn't promoting several international global languages be better so that the worlds thinking and ideas doesnt get lop-sided all to the English side.


Precisely. But that is why I believe ESL far outpaces actual usage - you can spread a great thing such as teaching English (which really can be fun on both ends because of the ready applications all over the place), but you can't replace native languages in stature, literature being a strong header of a list of must haves (it can be more personal than movies or tapes).

Further, ESL can continue to make tremendous strides in Asia while Westerners such as myself back further into a corner of ignorance of languages and by extension literature (and by extension philosophical and practical thought about life or business). I could take 3 years off and sacrifice life's securities and not get close to getting satisfaction from plodding through literature from Japan or elsewhere such that I can expand my outlook with confidence and trust.

Without a compliment to ESL such as "Japanese as Second Language", or others, at best, you increase the intensity of a sort of global ignorance - great masses of well-intentioned individuals without the tools to get a philosophical balance - you do, however, get great masses of folks who happily apply English when it might be necessary, might still being the operative word.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I have very mixed feelings on this subject ... I'll start with a general anti-foreign language learning rant applicable equally to English or Spanish: the biggest problem with promoting bilingualism in a society where few average people have opportunities to SOCIALIZE in the 2nd language (either cuz they don't know foreign language speakers, OR cuz speaking to them in the foreign language would be socially awkward), is that it generates and perpetuates inequality. Which is why I'm confused that speaking Spanish and promoting its use is considered cosmopolitan and socially progressive.

Imagine you were rich and wanted your kid to be rich too. Big $$$$ spent on your kids' education isn't going to make him smart if he was born stupid; it won't raise his test scores that much. But big $$$$ CAN make your kid speak a foreign language so fluently (by sending him to int'l school, overseas uni, etc.) that no normal kid studying that language as a subject in a normal (public or private) school is EVER gonna match him.

In a lot of countries where a foreign language is widely studied, people use your knowledge of the foreign language as a proxy for your intelligence, academic ability, professional competence, etc --- I call it the "TOEFL score=IQ score" myth. It's not impossible that a poor kid at an inner city US high school studies hard, gets a 1500 on the SAT, earns a college scholarship, and ends up in the middle class. But I scientifically guarantee you there is not ONE SINGLE KID in HK government-run secondary schools in Tin Shui Wai who is going to speak unaccented English by college graduation (for the ~10% of them who go) or any decade afterwards. This forever locks him out of most higher-paying corporate/managerial jobs. It doesn't matter how smart he is. And HK's elites know this. They're complicit in the system, and many of them actively promote it --- they'll hire the idiot babbling in fluent English instead of the locally-educated whizkid who mixes up his tenses and pronouns.

Coming back to the US: Poor Mexican immigrants or Spanglish-speaking Chicano teenagers will not be the primary beneficiaries of increased bilingualism in American society. Sure, their lives will get a little easier and their cultural identities a little more reinforced. But then, bunches of Anglos and blacks and Asian-Americans will feel pressured to study Spanish to improve their job prospects after college (in tune with the increased emphasis on bilingualism in society). They'll pass over studying other things, like science or Chinese. And their shitty college-learned Spanish will just annoy corporate recruiters, who will turn around and hire the small group of privileged kids whose parents run bank branches in Chile or were raised by Argentinian au pairs and Mexican cooks in LA, and who speak Spanish far better than anyone could have learned in school.

BTW I have even more rants in favor of or against the spread of English, and they're all just as long as this one, but I'll save them till later cuz I gotta get some sleep ...

[Martino]

But what happens to non-English writings? Like if no one can read them or no one wants to bother with reading a non-English book than the ideas in that book are never considered. If everyone gets together only via English then only ideas written in English get considered as globally worthy,

Like look around the world, when people refer to ideas or concepts they always reference a European or Western thinker or writer. I also think the English publishing industry in the West likes the expansion of English so that they can sell more books. What happens to non-English works if they ghetto stuck only in their own country. Wouldnt they become ghettoized? And what happens to the value of non-Western thinkers and non-Western ideas. Unless theres an English translation or unless you can read that non-Western language, then that work goes unnoticed and unappreaciated. Non-Western languages are devalued, while English is over valued.

If everone can only read in English than wouldnt they be missing out on the ideas locked away in another language. Do you think only English should be the single global international language? Wouldn't promoting several international global languages be better so that the worlds thinking and ideas doesnt get lop-sided all to the English side.


As far as I'm aware, there has never been a time when 'foreign' writing wasn't translated into English, or English into French, German, Spanish. Doesn't matter if you're talking Marx, Voltaire, Banana Yamamoto or Wu Ch`eng-en. Language has never been a barrier for the movement of ideas or stories.

[SunWuKong]

But what happens to non-English writings? Like if no one can read them or no one wants to bother with reading a non-English book than the ideas in that book are never considered. If everyone gets together only via English then only ideas written in English get considered as globally worthy,

Like look around the world, when people refer to ideas or concepts they always reference a European or Western thinker or writer. I also think the English publishing industry in the West likes the expansion of English so that they can sell more books. What happens to non-English works if they ghetto stuck only in their own country. Wouldnt they become ghettoized? And what happens to the value of non-Western thinkers and non-Western ideas. Unless theres an English translation or unless you can read that non-Western language, then that work goes unnoticed and unappreaciated. Non-Western languages are devalued, while English is over valued.

If everone can only read in English than wouldnt they be missing out on the ideas locked away in another language. Do you think only English should be the single global international language? Wouldn't promoting several international global languages be better so that the worlds thinking and ideas doesnt get lop-sided all to the English side.


well, a lot of foreign language books do get translated. and i don't know about anybody else, but most of the people i know in Asia know more about Chinese history and philosophy than their western counterparts.

[SunWuKong]

As far as I'm aware, there has never been a time when 'foreign' writing wasn't translated into English, or English into French, German, Spanish. Doesn't matter if you're talking Marx, Voltaire, Banana Yamamoto or Wu Ch`eng-en. Language has never been a barrier for the movement of ideas or stories.

i only slightly agree with your last sentence. a lot of times meanings are lost through translations, unfortunately, because not every expression in every language has an exact matching expression in every other language.

[kuilong]

English is hardly a bastardized language—it's simply a Germanic language with a lot of Romance loanwords. This sort of thing is hardly uncommon, c.f. Romanian or Kannada. And of course, RP's prestige seems to be on the wane, as people from BBC anchors to Tony Blair begin to speak Estuary English and such. A lot of people don't seem to realize that American English is generally more conservative than English dialects; we preserve, more than those across the pond, "the speech once delivered".

As for the spread of English, it's certainly a mixed blessing. For instance, in India (and possibly other former colonies), local medium schools lack prestige, which results in most middle-class families sending their children to English medium schools, with the subsequent drop in teaching standards. I understand Abdul Kalam is a proponent of local medium education, good on him. On the other hand, English is a useful lingua franca in India—after all, why should the language of government be Hindi and unfairly favor the minority of Indians for whom Hindi is a native language? The riots in the 60's show that many South Indians have no intention of giving into any sort of linguistic imperialism.

Getting people to learn a language is a tough business; in general, people unfailingly (in spite of the proclamations of those who feel that our society should be more multilingual, or that people shouldn't betray their native tongue by learning foreign languages) learn languages only when absolutely necessary. Québec, for instance, has had to require children to attend French-language schools unless one of their parents attended an English-language school.

This is part of the reason why I feel views that "WE MUST MAKE CERTAIN THESE BROWNIES SPEAK OUR LANGUAGE BEFORE THEIR TEEMING MASSES CROWD OUR SHORES" are misguided. Not only are immigrants powerfully motivated to learn the global lingua franca and displayed a willingness to do so over centuries, but this also puts the welfare an abstraction like language ahead of the welfare of actual people.

[yuuteya]

Although there are many translated works over the years, theyre will always remain way way way more un-translated originals that might never be translated at all. They are skipped over and ignored simply because people cant read them, since its not English... And not just books, but also movies, music, etc... People dont want to bother with it since its not in English. Like when people laugh at Japanese hip hop or something.. Rapping in Japanese is considered ridiculous.. Is this a good attitude? I dont think so.

I tend to believe that the translation is in fact not actually a "translation" per se, but its actually a whole new text in and of itself. In reality, the translator is actually a new author, and not just a "translator" per se. So learning about, let say, Chinese literature but using only English translations and not being able to read Chinese, well is not really the ideal way to go about doing it, is it?

Balance is seriously needed. Other languages should be promoted as lingua francas. To balance it, people in the English speaking world, US, Canada, etc, should have the same feeling/desire for wanting to learn Chinese or Japanese, as much as the people in China and Japan have for wanting to learn English. Especially non-Western languages, like Asian languages. For a common everyday example, you have two Asian people from two different Asian countries who resort to English to communicate to each other instead of an Asian language. Like if a South Korean person can only talk to a Japanese person in English, despite the fact that their two countries are next to each other and have been so interrelated for centuries. Two native Asian people in the middle of Asia, but always using English. Is this the preferrable situation? What about using Asian languages? Will we see the situation where two European people, lets say from France and England try using an Asian language to commuciate to each to other?

Only ESL? How about promote JSL, CSL, KSL.

[yuuteya]

learn languages only when absolutely necessary.

To learn more about the details of why such a situation arises when learning English becomes absolutely necessary or is perceived to be absolutely necessary, you have to look at history, politics, economics, and the egos that drive them

In the case of non-Westerners in Asia having the pressure to learn English, you have to look into colonialism and imperialism, conquest, global expansion, "American exeptionalism", neo-colonial economics, G.I.Joe, Charlie and company, etc.. not a pretty story at all :frown: Hardly Mother Goose

[kuilong]

Other languages should be promoted as lingua francas. To balance it, people in the English speaking world, US, Canada, etc, should have the same feeling/desire for wanting to learn Chinese or Japanese, as much as the people in China and Japan have for wanting to learn English.

Certainly a nice sentiment, but how exactly will you get them to learn these languages? I think this site (http://www.zompist.com/whylang.html) says it best:

If you want other people to learn a language, you're fighting an uphill battle. Persuasion and publicity won't do much; official declarations and government publications mean very little; schools alone won't do the trick.

Crystal's Language Death offers a number of suggestions, which I won't repeat here because the book is at the library; I'll just note that there's no guarantee. In the terms of this paper, you have to make people feel they need to learn the language.

As with individual learning, exposure helps. I suspect that local-content laws and signage laws have an effect. I doubt that (say) any Québec anglophone's decisions are changed by seeing signs in French, but an immigrant to the province might be subtly affected-- the signs increase the language's presence. Similarly, the Peruvian government once required an hour of Peruvian content a day on the radio; at the very least this got a lot of people familiar with traditional waynos, mostly sung in Quechua.

More important, perhaps, is to increase the domain where the language can be used. Language death involves a steady shrinkage in the areas where the language is spoken; and defeat is already in sight if the language is only spoken at home. An obvious place to start is school. Optimally the language is not just studied an hour at a time, but is actually the language of instruction.

In some areas (e.g. Canada, Catalunya) there's been a push to offer government services in minority languages. It can't hurt, but I'd argue that it doesn't help much, either: people don't interact with the government so much that this service affects people's feeling as to whether a language is needed or not.

There needs to be media in the language. The lesson of manga shouldn't be forgotten-- not just that content needs to exist, but it has to be content that people want. One Brazilian tribe had the right idea: they were given a tape recorder, they used it to record their own songs and festivals. (Thank heavens a bureaucrat wasn't around; he'd have insisted on translating government newsletters, or some such nonsense.)

Should people from Harbin, blessed as they are with native knowledge of the putonghua, learn Wu dialects? Should Persians during the Delhi Sultanate period have learned the Prakrits, as educated Delhiites learned Persian? The Inca learned Yunga? Perhaps, but it's probably not gonna happen. As Michael Krauss famously pointed out, easily 90% of contemporary languages could be extinct within this century (my "native language", Shanghainese, probably being one of them). Getting people to learn your preferred language is a tough business--it can be done, but the tactics used to do so are often a worse medicine than the disease.

[SunWuKong]

Only ESL? How about promote JSL, CSL, KSL.

well there's a problem with "CSL". learning Chinese as a second language is several times more difficult than learning English as a second language. how those Mormans do it, i don't know :tongue: . in my opinion, English is probably one of the easiest languages to learn. i understand that Korean is supposed to be easy to learn, too. but i hear Japanese can be confusing.

[SunWuKong]

As Michael Krauss famously pointed out, easily 90% of contemporary languages could be extinct within this century (my "native language", Shanghainese, probably being one of them).

nah don't worry about it. Shanghainese people are too snobby about their dialect to give it up. :tongue:

[kuilong]

well there's a problem with "CSL". learning Chinese as a second language is several times more difficult than learning English as a second language. how those Mormans do it, i don't know :tongue: . in my opinion, English is probably one of the easiest languages to learn. i understand that Korean is supposed to be easy to learn, too. but i hear Japanese can be confusing.

I disagree; almost all linguists would say that no language is inherently more difficult to learn than any other language. There is, however, a popular perception that Chinese is a very "hard language" -- one present even amongst the Chinese themselves.

The real problems with Chinese as a lingua franca, IMHO, are the script -- something so indelibly tied to the Chinese national identity that it's not about to be abandoned anytime soon -- and the very fact that it is so strongly associated with a particular nation.

[yuuteya]

In short: All that Anglo-US global colonialism, coersion and expansionism was a big undertaking, but it sure paid off big time for inheritors of the Anglo centric world. Congratulations. English forever.

[kuilong]

In short: All that Anglo-US global colonialism, coersion and expansionism was a big undertaking, but it sure paid off big time for inheritors of the Anglo centric world. Congratulations. English forever.

Oh well, nearly every linguistic situation everywhere in the world throughout history throughout history is due to a few land-grabs. And as I said, it's not all bad either -- there are no good alternatives in countries like India.

[yuuteya]

Then a dangerous precedent has been set. If "colonialism is not so bad" Then it suggests that colonialism and imperialism, despite its being a crime against humanity, will bring untold benefits to the future descendents of the country doing the colonizing. So crime does pay. So colonialism does pay. If you can fool the world long enough to do some hostile takeovers, and keep them, then your future descendents, your language and your culture will dominate for centuries to come. OK so in that case, for the sake of future Asians, should we hope that some country in Asia like China, Japan or even India, will arm up, become politically and economically dominant, and start taking over, replace the Europeans, eliminate the Americans. So then their Asian decendants and their Asian culture will dominate the world. Lets build a new Asian cultural empire?? And if Americans of 500 years in the future complain that they became minorities, then we can just say, oh well, tough luck. Sorry for playing devils advocate, but its a thought.

[kuilong]

Then a dangerous precedent has been set. If "colonialism is not so bad"

Where did anyone say anything like "colonialism is not so bad"?

Then it suggests that colonialism and imperialism, despite its being a crime against humanity, will bring untold benefits to the future descendents of the country doing the colonizing. So crime does pay. So colonialism does pay.

Well, it does, obviously -- or no one would do it, eh? But there also comes a time when colonies become liabilities; no one really thinks the Attlee government dismantled the empire wholly out of the goodness of their hearts.

And I don't think anyone's mentioned yet how the fact that people in countries are encouraged to be multilingual is a benefit for them over Americans, who are generally monolingual. It's harder for American companies to find multilingual staff; many UN organizations in Geneva have a dearth of Americans because few Americans speak French fluently (or can tolerate a European lifestyle, etc.)

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I disagree; almost all linguists would say that no language is inherently more difficult to learn than any other language. There is, however, a popular perception that Chinese is a very "hard language" -- one present even amongst the Chinese themselves.

Well I'd find it difficult to believe that learning English and learning Japanese is of the same inherent difficulty to, say...a Korean person. When you talk of such factors as pronunciation and grammar alone, it's clear that Japanese would be easier, seeing as how Japanese grammar is so similar (if not the same?) to Korean grammar and how English has more sounds and oral manipulations (for lack of better term cause I have no idea what it's called) to learn and in Japanese there would actually be a lot less and native-speaking Koreans practically already have all the necessary acquired muscle memory to pronounce virtually all Japanese words.

All this, of course, wouldn't really apply if you were talking about learning languages from scratch (as in, from birth), but still I would be a bit skeptical. For instance, I am not a linguist and I'm just throwing this out here, but...wouldn't it be safe to assume that languages with less exceptions to their rules would be easier at least from certain standpoints (such as Spanish in terms of spelling rules) than languages with a multitude of exceptions (e.g. English)?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Where did anyone say anything like "colonialism is not so bad"?
Me! Me! Me!

Seriously, in a classic example of dialectical materialism, colonizers, in trying to surpress separatism by the colonized, while at the same time educating them, managed to unintentionaly create nationalisms and identities where no nations had existed before. To take a non-British example, aborigines on Formosa found in Japanese their first true common language, with which they began to gain a common awareness of their position in society relative to Chinese and Japanese people.

The use of English in the post-colonial period isn't "colonialism without the colonizers" or "worshipping the west", as some have put it, but often represents an attempt by minority ethnicities within a multiethnic state to resist being colonized once again, this time by the majority ethnicity. (See, for example, non-Hindi-speakers in India). Notice that monoethnic former colonies have in general not retained the language of their former colonial masters nearly as much as multiethnic former colonies --- just compare the low level of English in Hong Kong or the disappearance of French in Vietnam to the success of Russian in Central Asia.

Conversely, the reimposition of Bahasa Melayu as the language of education in Malaysia (in preference to English) was precisely part of an attempt to subordinate the Chinese, or at least bring them down to the same level as the Malays, and define the Malaysian nation as belonging to the "sons of the soil".

Ironically enough, though, in the modern era, though, along with globalization, the meaning of speaking English to someone is starting to shift slightly --- English is the language you speak in general to all those random outsiders who don't speak your local language. This might pose a problem for countries in which disparate groups found their first common neutral ground in the English language imposed on them by colonialism, as each individual group in multiethnic English-speaking countries start to subconsciously consider all the other groups as no different from foreigners, since you have to use English to communicate with them just like you use English to communicate with foreigners.

Thus, Malaysia's old decision to eliminate English may have been unintentionally prescient. Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Indians) have chafed against the public promotion of BM, the necessity to take national BM proficiency examination to be admitted to university, conducting government business in BM, etc. Yet these policy decisions forced all Malaysian people to learn BM, while foreigners continued to use English to interface with the government and with business. This unintentionally preserved the function of Bahasa Melayu as a common marker of identity for Malaysians of different races which differentiates Malaysians from non-Malaysians --- a function which English, being the global language, is unable to serve.

[Martino]

Surely the current popularity of English is based purely on it being a common tool of commerce - a linguistic version of Windows? It's not the best option out there, but everyone uses it because everyone uses it?

Even here, on this Asian/Asian-American board, it is the language of choice, simply because it is one of the few languages used outside of its national borders that we all can share. It is almost enevitable that one or two languages would step forward to fill this business need. The fact that it is English is virtually an accident of history - after all, the language has always had its rivals.

In terms of numbers of actual speakers, English still lags behind Mandarin and probably at least one Indian dialect. Isn't the Chinese government still actively trying to discourage the use of other Chinese languages, like Cantonese? And how did the standardised Chinese written language or official spoken language gain dominance over the whole kingdom if not by means similiar to the more successful European languages?

I suspect English would be an easier second language to learn than, say, Mandarin. Unlike English, Mandarin speakers use intonation to distinguish between completely different meanings of particular words, whereas English can be mispelt, misprounounced, or words arranged grammatically incorrectly(Yoda speak?) and still be understood.

Um ... you might almost call it a language for idiots. ;O)

[asvenus]

its strange because while i do love the english language(am an english book worm), there is a common misconseption, that it is 'easy' to learn , hence why it is touted as an easy second language for all people to learn..it is actually one of the hardest languages to learn, (reading and speaking) because it is full of so many contradictions, its the only language (apart from Brazilian Portuguese) with as many inflections and almost imperceptible intonations that can drastically alter meaning in speech. it is one of the only languages to have no distinctive question tags..(ie: in french ='n'est pas'? in spanish = que? etc)...so i think its adoption as the worlds language of 'choice' has more to do with colonisation and assumptions of superiority rather than ease and the fact that so many people across the globe have learnt it well reflects their capacity to learn rather than anything else...

[kuilong]

Well I'd find it difficult to believe that learning English and learning Japanese is of the same inherent difficulty to, say...a Korean person. When you talk of such factors as pronunciation and grammar alone, it's clear that Japanese would be easier, seeing as how Japanese grammar is so similar (if not the same?) to Korean grammar and how English has more sounds and oral manipulations (for lack of better term cause I have no idea what it's called) to learn and in Japanese there would actually be a lot less and native-speaking Koreans practically already have all the necessary acquired muscle memory to pronounce virtually all Japanese words.

That's why I carefully included the word "inherent" -- no doubt if you're Norwegian, learning Danish isn't going to be much of a chore (you can understand it already). But an English speaker would find it about as easy to learn a Bantu language as a Swahili-speaker would a West-Germanic language (excluding, of course, the fact that there are a lot more resources for learning English, and that the English speaker will probably start the project with the firm conviction that learning Swahili is impossible...)

All this, of course, wouldn't really apply if you were talking about learning languages from scratch (as in, from birth), but still I would be a bit skeptical. For instance, I am not a linguist and I'm just throwing this out here, but...wouldn't it be safe to assume that languages with less exceptions to their rules would be easier at least from certain standpoints (such as Spanish in terms of spelling rules) than languages with a multitude of exceptions (e.g. English)?

It's a common mistake to equate the "complexity" of a language with how complex its morphology is... this is the source of the perrenial question as to why Latin was so complicated, but the Romance languages are so simple! (Or the assertion that Chinese has "no grammar", which you'll often hear even from Chinese teachers.) Certainly Latin had very complex noun and adjective morphology, but the verb system in most Romance languages is a lot more complicated, with new synthetic conjugations, etc. arising in the past two millenia -- like the modern synethetic future conjugation in Spanish which arose from present periphrasic expressions. And Latin had very simple syntax compared to many modern-day European languages.

Languages (excluding pidgins) don't really have "more" or "less" complexity; the complexity just shifts to different places: whether morphology, syntax or phonology...

Surely the current popularity of English is based purely on it being a common tool of commerce - a linguistic version of Windows? It's not the best option out there, but everyone uses it because everyone uses it?

Since when has anyone used any language because it's inherently better for its task? (Esperanto doesn't count!)

it is one of the only languages to have no distinctive question tags

Canadian "Eh?"...

[MovingForward]

Although there are many translated works over the years, theyre will always remain way way way more un-translated originals that might never be translated at all. They are skipped over and ignored simply because people cant read them, since its not English... And not just books, but also movies, music, etc... People dont want to bother with it since its not in English. Like when people laugh at Japanese hip hop or something.. Rapping in Japanese is considered ridiculous.. Is this a good attitude? I dont think so.

I tend to believe that the translation is in fact not actually a "translation" per se, but its actually a whole new text in and of itself. In reality, the translator is actually a new author, and not just a "translator" per se. So learning about, let say, Chinese literature but using only English translations and not being able to read Chinese, well is not really the ideal way to go about doing it, is it?

Balance is seriously needed. Other languages should be promoted as lingua francas. To balance it, people in the English speaking world, US, Canada, etc, should have the same feeling/desire for wanting to learn Chinese or Japanese, as much as the people in China and Japan have for wanting to learn English. Especially non-Western languages, like Asian languages. For a common everyday example, you have two Asian people from two different Asian countries who resort to English to communicate to each other instead of an Asian language. Like if a South Korean person can only talk to a Japanese person in English, despite the fact that their two countries are next to each other and have been so interrelated for centuries. Two native Asian people in the middle of Asia, but always using English. Is this the preferrable situation? What about using Asian languages? Will we see the situation where two European people, lets say from France and England try using an Asian language to commuciate to each to other?

Only ESL? How about promote JSL, CSL, KSL.

I'm absolutely there with CSL for myself - but Western Nations simply don't support it. I'm one of the masses of problematic learners that aren't going to master it quickly - unless a CSL was in place that was affordable.

China, Japan, the Koreas all support ESL and support it well - financially and organizationally.

[MovingForward]

I'm absolutely there with CSL for myself - but Western Nations simply don't support it. I'm one of the masses of problematic learners that aren't going to master it quickly - unless a CSL was in place that was affordable.

China, Japan, the Koreas all support ESL and support it well - financially and organizationally.

Er, make that South Korea supports ESL - Monday work battle fatigue allowed me to imagine that North Korea supports ESL - I haven't the foggiest DPRK does or not.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Er, make that South Korea supports ESL - Monday work battle fatigue allowed me to imagine that North Korea supports ESL - I haven't the foggiest DPRK does or not.
Actually, they do. See this thread:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=9545

Somewhere on the web there's a travelogue floating around from a guy who actually went on such a program (he ended up editing propaganda articles instead, though).

Charles Jenkins also taught English at a military college in Pyongyang for a while.

[MovingForward]

Actually, they do. See this thread:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=9545

Somewhere on the web there's a travelogue floating around from a guy who actually went on such a program (he ended up editing propaganda articles instead, though).

Charles Jenkins also taught English at a military college in Pyongyang for a while.

This is priceless.

Of course, if my nation's economy keeps tanking because of the 95% investment in a service economy vs. manufacturing and distribution, I may find myself not smirking at the idea of editing propaganda articles for the DPRK or the PRC - I have but one stomach to give to my country - give me sustenance or give me death.

[SunWuKong]

Actually, they do. See this thread:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=9545

Somewhere on the web there's a travelogue floating around from a guy who actually went on such a program (he ended up editing propaganda articles instead, though).

Charles Jenkins also taught English at a military college in Pyongyang for a while.


i've revived that thread, FYI.

[Martino]

A highly relevant news story that doesn't support my view:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4172085.stm

In defence of 'lost' languages

Of the 6,000-odd languages in the world, one is said to disappear every fortnight. Should the English-speaking world care?

Somewhere on the remote Timor Sea coast of north Australia lives Patrick Nudjulu, one of three remaining speakers of Mati Ke.

It is problem enough that one of the other speakers doesn't live nearby and speaks a slightly different dialect. But the 60-year-old Aborigine also has to cope with the fact the other speaker is his sister - who traditional culture has forbidden him from speaking to since puberty.

Patrick's language then, is almost certainly going to die out. It's not the only one.

The problem is repeated to various degrees in practically every country, with dialects vanishing under the weight of major languages like English, says the writer Mark Abley.

It was 10 years ago that Mr Abley's interest in these disappearing dialects was sparked by an elderly woman in Quebec, Canada, trying to teach Abenaki to other members of her native American community.

"I thought it was poignant and pathetic," says Mr Abley. "But I later realised it was also very interesting that she had the passion to do everything she could to revive her language."

Movies, computer games, music and TV shows do not get made in minority languages and so the dialects start to become the preserve of the old, says the author of Spoken Here: Travels Among Threatened Languages.

"One of the main things that's happening is that young people all over the world are being exposed to 21st Century culture, which is very often arriving in the form of English," he says.

That languages occasionally disappear is nothing new.

Some 200 years ago the German explorer Alexander von Humboldt stumbled upon the village of Maypures, near the Orinoco river, in what's now Venezuela.

While there he heard a parrot speaking and asked the villagers what it was saying. None knew since the parrot spoke Atures and was its last native speaker.

But such changes - whether they are caused by war, famine, marriage or mass media - should not mean the loss of dialects is acceptable, says Mr Abley.

English and other major languages, while often acting as a democratising force, do not always reflect the breadth of meaning in the language they supersede.

The Inuit language of Inuktitut, for example, has many verbs for the word "know", ranging from "utsimavaa" - meaning he or she knows from experience to "nalunaiqpaa" - he or she is no longer unaware of something.

"The point is that it's not just picturesque details that are lost if a language dies out, it's also a whole way of understanding human experience."

Most attempts to revive threatened languages flounder, but they can succeed - particularly if they become a part of popular culture.

Think Lisa Simpson and her recent flag-waving on behalf of Cornish and the teaching of Manx in Isle of Man schools.

But it is Welsh that stands out as a "great example", with popular TV soap operas made in the language and bands like Super Furry Animals and Gorky's Zygotic Mynci recording in it.

There's even been a pornographic novel written entirely in Welsh.

"That's all for the good because it means the language is flourishing," says Mr Abley.

[yuuteya]

Surely the current popularity of English is based purely on it being a common tool of commerce - a linguistic version of Windows?No, there are also important factors of prestige and pressure. In Japan, even in a job situations where English is not needed at all, there is still some kind of peer pressure to get some English certification, the higher the level the more prestigious. There's also propaganda and irrational pressure involved, based on some vague assumptions and images that circulate around over English importance. The commerce involved is also about expanding a market and making profits from Asians who have been intentionally hyped-up over English. Lets not forget greed.

Even here, on this Asian/Asian-American board, it is the language of choice The phrase: "Even here, on this Asian...." is interesting as it tacitly suggests that its all cool since even "Asian" people are into the English, etc... Anyway, I dont think we are using English in here by "choice", per se, but rather by unspoken convention and assumption. This site started in the US, run mostly by people in the US. All the pages and sections in this site are in English, no Chinese page is there. So there's an unspoken assumption that English will be used and not something else.

The fact that it is English is virtually an accident of history - after all, the language has always had its rivals.Then the spread of English it isnt such an "accident" then is it, huh. The fact that there were "rivals" means there were intentions, Western arrogance, pride, greed, racial and colonial egos involved. By saying that English came about by "accident" makes it look like some happy Disneyland history in a vacuum, and deflects full recognition of all the untold Asian blood, Asian sweat and Asian tears, which came out of British Imperial and US Imperial expansion in Asia.

European military attacks, invasions, occupations, and Western indoctrination of Asians were all for the benefit of the West, to make it easier to suck a colony's resources. Perhaps convert some heathen darkies too. Colonialism was by strategic design.
No accident there.

So today centuries later, for millions of Asians....
"Hello boys and girls. This is a pen. Can you spell pen? P E N"

It looks so innocent and accidental, huh?

[Martino]

The phrase: "Even here, on this Asian...." is interesting as it tacitly suggests that its all cool since even "Asian" people are into the English, etc... Anyway, I dont think we are using English in here by "choice", per se, but rather by unspoken convention and assumption.


It doesn't 'tacitly' say anything of the sort.

But your statement about the unspoken convention rather supports my assertion that quote Surely the current popularity of English is based purely on it being a common tool .... a linguistic version of Windows? unquote. With Windows you can make safe assumptions on its use and function, with this board, modelled very closely to a standard EZBoard configuration, you know what happens if you press this button or that, how to add avatars and smilies etc. You are using a universal FORMAT that you know and understand.

The US DOES have boards in other languages, its easy to find boards in other countries in other languages, you COULD write messages here in Malay, Japanese, what have you - but you don't. You are using a language which gives all ethnicities here a level playing field.

Then the spread of English it isnt such an "accident" then is it, huh. The fact that there were "rivals" means there were intentions, Western arrogance, pride, greed, racial and colonial egos involved. By saying that English came about by "accident" makes it look like some happy Disneyland history in a vacuum, and deflects full recognition of all the untold Asian blood, Asian sweat and Asian tears, which came out of British Imperial and US Imperial expansion in Asia.

Hardly. The language struggled to survive from inception - it isn't even the aboriginal language here.

The "accident" is that no man or company calculated or planned the spread of the language. Who really could have guessed, all those centuries ago, that the English language, in some form, would be so readibly accepted as currency in diverse countries around the globe. Just as the ancient Greeks could never guess that their language would die off only to be resurrected, piecemeal, a few millenia later.

Simply put, there was no Masterplan.

European military attacks, invasions, occupations, and Western indoctrination of Asians were all for the benefit of the West, to make it easier to suck a colony's resources. Perhaps convert some heathen darkies too. Colonialism was by strategic design.
No accident there.

Thank you for the snappy history lesson.

So today centuries later, for millions of Asians....
"Hello boys and girls. This is a pen. Can you spell pen? P E N"

It looks so innocent and accidental, huh?

You were asking about the modern spread of English, but you seem to have another agenda here that you can't quite get off your chest. Are you saying people who use English are sell-outs?

[yuuteya]

Surely the current popularity of English is based purely on it being a common tool .... a linguistic version of Windows? With Windows you can make safe assumptions on its use and function, a standard EZBoard configuration, you know what happens if you press this button or add avatars and smilies etc. Thanks for the reductive utilitarianism. So English is basically just an OS. Really? Cool, I gotta get me one of those.

The US DOES have boards in other languages, its easy to find boards in other countries in other languages, you COULD write messages here in Malay, Japanese, what have you - but you don't. So there are other languages in the US? Really? And I thought all they spoke in America was English. :rolleyes:

Since this site is written all in English, its pretty obvious that anyone who comes in here instantly "knows" that English is the expected language of communcation, not Malay or Japanese. You dont need a notice for that. That's why its called an "unspoken convention", its the expectation. So going by your logic, if thats the case, why dont You go to a Malay or Japanese board and write in English then?? ... Same reason.

Hardly. The language struggled to survive from inception
The "accident" is that no man or company calculated or planned the spread of the language.
Simply put, there was no Masterplan.The "struggle" of English.. :rolleyes:

Have you ever considered taking some management classes? Running a massive enterprise with no planning?? Wow. Your business will never get off the ground.... I think its basic knowledge to everyone that in order to build and administer a massive human undertaking, such as, oh lets say, A Global Empire, you clearly need planning, coordination and strategy. Even more so when you have some things called "Colonies" to administer and keep going. Im mean, wow, all those darkies to organize, educate and tax, and you got no plan?? ... Come on Joe. That takes tremendous planning.

Why do you think colonial governments went to all the trouble to take regular census, make maps and take land surveys? Its getting the colony ready for resource sucking. And the labour to do it?? ..Well, thats why you teach them darkies & coolies some Euro-lingo, then they can understand your orders, chop chop... Are you suggesting the British had such a splendid Empire without any planning? Dont be daft. So what do you think the British and the Americans held/holding their empires together with? Prayers? or maybe some ducttape and rubber bands?? Come on. Ever heard of bureaucracy? They like to do lots of planning over at the bureaucracy, lots of endless boring meetings, theyve lots of paper there too, and tons of stuff called Red tape... So you see, you cant sustain a glorious Empire without a bureaucracy to administer and p l a n.

Thank you for the snappy history lesson.You're welcome. Though given what've posted, you might need much more than a snap.

You were asking about the modern spread of English, but you seem to have another agenda here that you can't quite get off your chest. Are you saying people who use English are sell-outs?
Those are your words, not mine. I never said such a thing.

But thanks for your posts, really. You've shown just how easy it is to decontextualize and obliviate a present language's connection to power and politics over time. English becoming dominant by "accident"?? You've shown that its easy to cut off the past events from view, and ignore their effects in the present.

Is language a tool/mode for communication? Yes of course. You are absolutely correct on that. Your reductive analogy, that its an OS is acceptable. But how did/does OS get distributed around?.. To stop at that analogy, and say that's all English ever was and that's all English will ever be... well, hey that easily erases alot of serious Asian history that shouldn't be forgotten. Although there are those who would rather forget.

[kimpossible]

well aren't you two becoming best friends. i know you guys aren't seeing eye to eye right now but you're debating well. i'm not sure i can karma you two for it because i think i karma'd you both lately, but i'll try.

[Martino]

Thanks for the reductive utilitarianism. So English is basically just an OS. Really? Cool, I gotta get me one of those.

You got it already. Do you have any back up software? I can get by in Spanish, but it will be years - if ever - before I attempt a Spanish board. I wonder if people on Spanish boards write topics criticising the spread of Spanish? Maybe.

So there are other languages in the US? Really? And I thought all they spoke in America was English. :rolleyes:

So why are you writing in English then if it's so baaaad?

Since this site is written all in English, its pretty obvious that anyone who comes in here instantly "knows" that English is the expected language of communcation,

Plenty of boards out there where discussion is in more than one language. Other languages aren't banned here.

You dont need a notice for that. That's why its called an "unspoken convention", its the expectation.

Again, if you write something in another language, odds on you'll get a reply. No one is stopping you.

So going by your logic, if thats the case, why dont You go to a Malay or Japanese board and write in English then?? ... Same reason.

You can, and I have, and you get replies. Same with foreign language websites with guest books. The English language isn't compulsory on pain of death.

Have you ever considered taking some management classes? Running a massive enterprise with no planning?? Wow. Your business will never get off the ground.... I think its basic knowledge to everyone that in order to build and administer a massive human undertaking, such as, oh lets say, A Global Empire, you clearly need planning, coordination and strategy.

Show me documented evidence that the modern day spread of English is planned. While you're at it, perhaps you could also prove that the Jews really do run the world?

Even more so when you have some things called "Colonies" to administer and keep going. Im mean, wow, all those darkies to organize, educate and tax, and you got no plan?? ... Come on Joe. That takes tremendous planning.

Stop using the word 'darkies' please. Adopting the racist terminology of the past doesn't help your argument, and is offensive in itself.

Why do you think colonial governments went to all the trouble to take regular census, make maps and take land surveys? Its getting the colony ready for resource sucking. And the labour to do it?? ..Well, thats why you teach them darkies & coolies some Euro-lingo, then they can understand your orders, chop chop... Are you suggesting the British had such a splendid Empire without any planning? Dont be daft.

The British empire existed from about the second quarter of the eighteenth century until the start of the twentieth. In the 18th Century it comprised the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the islands of the Caribbean and the British mainland colonies of North America.

In that time, the 'first' empire was acquired, piecemeal, through the establishment of trading posts, the founding of colonies, or as the spoils of war. The key words are opportunism and chance. There was no architect deciding the empires borders or plans. Back then, the empire was administered by devolved authority from the Monarchy to a
succession of Whig politicians. There was no continous policy other than an intention to counter the French or Dutch.

do you think the British and the Americans held/holding their empires together with? Prayers? or maybe some ducttape and rubber bands?? Come on. Ever heard of bureaucracy? They like to do lots of planning over at the bureaucracy, lots of endless boring meetings, theyve lots of paper there too, and tons of stuff called Red tape... So you see, you cant sustain a glorious Empire without a bureaucracy to administer and p l a n.

You can administer what you've got, but bureaucrats don't sit down and plan the conquest of the world. They especially don't sit down and plan the spread of a language centuries ahead of time, which is what you are implying in this thread.

You're welcome. Though given what've posted, you might need much more than a snap.

Oh grow up.

Those are your words, not mine. I never said such a thing.

It's there between the lines. Your whole commentary about the modern spread of English is shouting it out.

But thanks for your posts, really. You've shown just how easy it is to decontextualize and obliviate a present language's connection to power and politics over time.

I'm responding to the question as you framed it in your first post.

English becoming dominant by "accident"?? You've shown that its easy to cut off the past events from view, and ignore their effects in the present.

Still no documentary proof from you. Where is the design, the masterplan, the architect? Who decided on this great course of action? Who sustains it now? You are in the terrirory of conspiracy theorists.

Is language a tool/mode for communication? Yes of course. You are absolutely correct on that. Your reductive analogy, that its an OS is acceptable.

You're so-oo kind.

But how did/does OS get distributed around?.. To stop at that analogy, and say that's all English ever was and that's all English will ever be... well, hey that easily erases alot of serious Asian history that shouldn't be forgotten. Although there are those who would rather forget.

Windows isn't the only OS available, Windows wasn't always the market leader, it wont always be the market leader. It is the same with languages. If English wasn't dominant in some spheres now, some other language would be. Things change.

Now let's see you start a thread discussing how Mandarin has systematically extinguished other Chinese dialects ...

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Given that people are actually having to study English by reading books and sitting in classrooms, I can't say it's been wildly successful as a cultural force. English barely gained ANY mother tongue speakers in the British or American colonies. The only notable exception is Singapore, where basically the entire Chinese population traded Hokkien/Cantonese/Hakka for Singlish or Mandarin.

Compare to Latin America or Central Asia, where the ruling powers created out of thin air whole countries full of people who speak Spanish or Russian as their first and only language. Now that's imperial dominance.

BTW the only places where Mandarin has "systematically extinguished" other Chinese dialects are Taiwan and Singapore. Go to the mainland, and you'll find plenty of kids who are bilingual in Mandarin and their local dialect. Immigrants to even heavily Mandarin-dominated big cities like Shenzhen still learn to at least understand Cantonese, even if they can't speak it for crap.

[asvenus]

im not so sure that yuuteya is far off the mark, based on the colonisation in India and the rank that was bestowed to Indians that had the funds to come to the UK and kearn English and receive an English education, its kinda persuasive..i dont know enough about exactly how the usage of the english language was perceived in other countries other than conjecture and very bare details but certainly in India alot of what yuuteya is describing rang true...

[yuuteya]

So why are you writing in English then if it's so baaaad? The language itself is a legitimate means of communication, so your "baad" judgement is irrelevant in that context. Why write in English?? Why do you continue to ask redundant questions with obvious answers that have already been answered?? Do you have a problem with comprehension? English is the language of convention in here. Capiche? (sorry that was Italian). The English language, any language, used as a tool for communication, is an obvious fact that everyone knows and practices. Its happening now... For example, right now, you are using English to communicate your seriously disturbing and offensive British Colonial-Apologist attitude in a site for pan-Asian political-cultural consciousness. Is that so gooood???

Show me documented evidence that the modern day spread of English is planned. While you're at it, perhaps you could also prove that the Jews really do run the world?Show me documented evidence that modern cultural racism exists. While your at it, perhaps you could also prove that hidden discrimination exists. Prove that modern day Yellow Face and Orientalism exists... Whats the matter? No documented evidence at hand? Difficult to prove discursive systems of discrimination? And if you cant cough that concrete evidence up, it doesn't exist then?? Perhaps for you they don't exist.? Your attempt to connect me to Anti-Semitism is quite distasteful, and in a word, sickening! Although your low-brow sarcasm as made the disturbing subtext in your posts more apparent.

Stop using the word 'darkies' please. Adopting the racist terminology of the past doesn't help your argument, and is offensive in itself.Stop hiding behind a veil of Token Liberalism and political-correctness in order to erase and ignore full recognistion of British Imperialism, Colonialism, Racism and its continued effects. Ok? So, you dont like hearing historically racist English words like Darkies, chop-chop, Chinky Linky, Jappy Slappy, and the like??.. Well, those are STILL unfortunate realities for some people who dont have the *Choice* to ignore them. I see, you want to ignore it all, close your ears, and pretend it doesnt exist. Well that's your privilege. Some of us dont have that... Hmmm. Now your attitude is beginning to make sense.

The British empire existed from about the second quarter of the eighteenth century until the start of the twentieth.Still kept your old high school textbook with you I see. :rolleyes:

In that time, the 'first' empire was acquired, piecemeal, through the establishment of trading posts, the founding of colonies, or as the spoils of war. The key words are opportunism and chance. There was no architect deciding the empires borders or plans.So its Swashbucklers Vs the Pirates of the Caribbean?? Is that why you love the romantic image of "the struggle of English"?.. Against all odds, against Dark rivals and Yellow hordes, those brave British White men explored, opened-up and civilized the darkies and Oriental savages, all out of "opportunism" and "chance" ?? Sounds so heroic. Did you like Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?? But what drove opportunism?? What drives British White men to take advantage (to put it lightly) of "Other" people?? How about alot of Greed, and oh, maybe some ethnocentricm, cultural Arrogance, and Racist ideology. You see, British Imperialists need those things in order to justify and rationalize to themselves their project of dehumanizing non-White people and building up a Global Empire.

You can administer what you've got, but bureaucrats don't sit down and plan the conquest of the world.
Silly rabbit :rolleyes: British Colonial policy and Imperial laws were decided and deliberated in Parliament, you know, that stuffy dark place with fat old men in silly wigs... Imperial laws were passed, then handed over to the Imperial bureacracy for implimentation. With branches all over the world.. just like Visa and MasterCard.. the British Imperial bureaucracy P.L.A.N.N.E.D. how to implement and execute colonial policy within each Colony. Capiche? (sorry, my Italian again). They organized regular census, land surveys, mapping, made expeditions to "discover" new lands. The British Imperialists suck suck sucked all those resources out of the colony, shipped it back to jolly England, and manufactured it into products... Basically the land and the people were reduced to commodities. Asians became dehumanized commodities. And if you can teach those "Orientals" to understand English, its even better! Wow! Think of all the services those "Orientals" can provide if they understand English. Put them in subordinate positions in offices & businesses, and as labourers & servants: "chop-chop"... Yes, the British Colonial Bureaucracy was quite massive, well planned, well coordinated and well organized, indeed, it had to be, it was a Pan-Continental Global Empire. The British Empire at its Supreme height in 19thC was soo glorious & splendid, spreading Golden Civilization & English Enlightenment to all the dark savage places where the Orcs live.

As for the documents of Empire, those British Imperialists were quite organized and meticulous, splendid chaps. They documented everything from the very boring (digging wells, counting cargo), to the very exciting (measuring Oriental skulls, penises, making 'race' categories, taking erotic 'race' pictures)...How do you think "Race" discourse started off in the English language anyway??? ...Human beings were dehumanized into "Orientals" (still called that way today!) People and families were turned into commodities for racial classification. The Hordes and Hordes of Free Labour!..Wow!.. Darkies/Coolies = British Commodities. Oh, once you get them understanding English, and its even better. Kind of like an OS upgrade, right?? Well, those Colonial documents still exist, tons and tons of colonial documents still exist, collectively known as the "British Parliamentary Papers". Remember its a Bureaucracy, they love taking records, making documents, filing away tons and tons of paper. Ah...those heroic bureaucrats.

Oh grow upSolly sir, I silly little boy. Yes, I listen you now, you always correct, ok :rolleyes:

It's there between the lines. Your whole commentary about the modern spread of English is shouting it out.What's quite evident is your wish to totally ignore and erase centuries of Asian colonial experiences. The ethnocentric-racial arrogance of British Imperial expansion into the 'Far East' and 'Dark Continent', played a key role in the spread of English. What *you* keep shouting out, is that you want to totally deny colonial complicity, totally obliviate it, totally erase it, and tell us that Asian people have always loved English coz its a really cool OS..??? But then again, OS??? It seems you like to see things in terms of, commodities?

Um ... you might almost call it a language for idiots. ;O)Yes, it certainly looks that way.

[Martino]

Show me documented evidence that modern cultural racism exists.

Here we go:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/4161809.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3151062.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3496731.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3643397.stm


While your at it, perhaps you could also prove that hidden discrimination exists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4066109.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4001765.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3804519.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3008084.stm


Prove that modern day Yellow Face and Orientalism exists...

http://www.geocities.com/kleeemt/miss_saigon.htm

http://www.mgm.com/title_title.do?title_star=REMOWILL

http://www.bananacafe.ca/store/t-shirts_pop_culture.htm

http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/tshirts.htm

Whats the matter? No documented evidence at hand?

Ah, I see. You expected me to post answers at the precise second you write the questions?

Difficult to prove discursive systems of discrimination?

Apparently not.

And if you cant cough that concrete evidence up, it doesn't exist then??

Coughed up concrete evidence for you. Your turn.

[yuuteya]

This is just a game to you isnt it Martino? And you really want to win don't you? You want to defeat me and consign me to the corner?... (old habits die hard, eh?)

Do you know how much you've just cheapened the whole situation?? Its really sickening man! Open your eyes if you can?..See whats happening?? ..You spit-out some internet links, to serious issues that People of Color/Asians/Asian Americans know full well about through years of personal experience. Oh, Im sure alot of people in here dont need much concrete evidence to prove racial discrimination, you see, we've felt it all our lives, and still keep feeling it... You toss around and use those sites for your ends, and for what?? Just to prove some point?? You do those sites a dishonour, and you cheapen this place.

Its clear this is no longer about discussion or debate, but this is all about your pride and arrogance. Sorry, but I wont be pulled further into your well of pride.

And what is that point that you are so aching to prove, of all things?? To erase Imperialism & Colonialism's connection to the spread of English. And in an Asian American site of all places?!... Sick, man, so, SICK! are you a troll or something?

I see you like to read British Broadcasting alot, why's that? English? oh heavens me, are you British too? Is that why what I am saying irks you? Now I see why you want to defend European Imperialism and erase history. Your colonial apologist attitude makes a whole lot of sense now.

Are you still trying to make this into some kind of a battle of the posts?? Defending the British Colonialism?? Its ok chump, Im a pacifist, I don't fight, especially in cheap battles such as yours. So if you want to deliver the coup de grace, its all yours now... (the way its always been, right?)

[Martino]

Do you know how much you've just cheapened the whole situation?? Its really sickening man! Open your eyes if you can?..See whats happening?? ..You spit-out some internet links, to serious issues that ...

... serious issues that I know and follow all too well. For example, the business with Jonathan Pryce playing a Eurasian in Miss Saigon, you don't find that just by googling 'yellowface'.

I was out there struggling for gay and ethnic equality under the Thatcher government when you were two years old.

And what is that point that you are so aching to prove, of all things?? To erase Imperialism & Colonialism's connection to the spread of English.

Er ... that is the point of a discussion, to argue your position. Your starting point was these questions:

What do you think about more people speaking English around the world?

to which I gave my view, and

Is it to the detrement and expense of non-English speaking cultures?

to which I posted a BBC news story which supported the detriment view, and

English is sometimes called the global language that promotes unity. Are there any consequences? Should non-English languages be promoted as lingua francas as well? Are there hidden forms of discrimination in all of this? Where does all of this leave Asian languages and cultures?


which you haven't tackled because you're obsessing with the colonial origins of the early spread of English, whilst ignoring the media which spread the language in the present (MTV, Channel V, the internet, computer games etc.).

[SunWuKong]

ok. i haven't been following this thread. but needless to say, settle down. remember, attack the argument, not the person.

[MovingForward]

These posts have done much to help me understand emotions I have not held in high enough regard when it comes to my friends who occasionally solicit my help with English in their daily lives and jobs.

I knew my friends had great capacities for separating me from their grievances or hostilities about the American or English heritage, but I will hold them in higher estimation if their capacities are even greater than I thought.

For yuuteya - it was high time someone helped me to not just hear but digest some raw emotion about the spread of English - my friends are not likely to clue me in - it is high time I got some sensitivity about the origins of this spread and not just the current motivators. As my close friends have helped me to reconsider the Taiwan issue (one example of my continuing education), so have you enabled me to reconsider what drives ESL, though my love of the challenges of Mandarin and my gravitational pull towards China probably will see me...gulp, spreading some more English to my friends and whomever I encounter the first days of my travels in China - but I promise: it will not be to trump or trounce - it will be objective responses to what they demand. I'm not being facetious here - you are the teacher, I'm the student - I'm leveling with you and your impact on my senses this day.

For Martino - I'm embarrassed that I don't readily recall what I was taught about English history, but your articulations in this thread ring true, and the accident that is 'English as tool of communication' is just as much an accident as it could be an imposition of will or dominance. I picture China as world hedgemon and I picture endless classroom sessions of people learning Mandarin - and these sessions in my fantasy are going a helluva lot slower than ESL classroom sessions.

I was taught throughout school about English and American expansion, colonialism, and I did all kinds of homework that asked me to argue with myself and my nation, to learn other languages that were so much more enriching than the dry, Americanized-English.

Your articulation and yuuteya's are entirely compatible - if not, how could I at once feel admiration for your bulletin points and regret for yuuteya's very real grievances and what they say about my heritage? English is a negative reality for many, evidently, and as such, maybe it is a negative reality for myself. But you've helped me to remember it is not always a negative reality and in fact, one that draws yourself and yuuteya to a place where I can read and learn.

Thank you both for your considerable energies and thought.

[yuuteya]

Before I go further on this thread, something very important needs to be pointed out...the argument, not the person.Of course. But in unfortunate cases such as this, there is a very disturbing and seriously offensive Discriminatory-Subtext in that person's words. Despite token claims to being "Liberal", Discriminatory attitudes are directly connected and enmeshed into that person himself. Unfortunately that person seems incapable of Humble Self-Reflection and Sincere Self-Critique. They approach this issue with obvious Arrogance and Pride! An aggressive desire to attack and defeat opponents. Given the subject matter its a disturbing parrallel to past historical events. An unfortunate combination for those who have to endure it... I was honestly shocked! I never expected to experience that kind of Discrimination directed towards me in here YW, of all places?

Wow! The irony is incredible. Is there any real sanctuary left for marginalized Asian viewpoints, historically-silenced Asian perspectives??? Can we express our view regarding the REAL Asian experiences of White Imperialism's globalized social-economic attack and Colonial rape of Asian & African cultures (Including the Spread of English) to be heard, without - ironically enough - an overbearing domineering White Man with closetted-Orientalist tendencies telling me in YW that its all a hoax??? How about if a 'liberal' German guy goes to a Jewish site and says the Holocaust happened, but that the body count was actually much lower...eh? A liberal?? Bollocks. Doesnt Martino have any sense of propriety? Any decency?

He doesn't realize how absolutely offensive and absolutely disgusting his attitude is to say the least. I dont care if he holds an official card that says "Im liberal" on it, his discriminatory attitude to erase, the key word is *Erase* Asian history and Asian experiences is totally inexcusable and makes me sick to my stomach!
... serious issues that I know and follow all too well. For example, the business with Jonathan Pryce playing a Eurasian in Miss Saigon, you don't find that just by googling 'yellowface'.Please re-evaluate the issue of White Privilege because it is central to your disturbing discriminatory attitudes. Whites can choose to "follow" the issue of racism, they have the option to read and "know" about it, because they are "interested" in that kind of thing.

But Asians have no choice in the matter. We don't need to follow racism, racism follows us! I dont need some Asiaphile to teach me about racist "yellowface"! We are "yellowfaced" since birth, we are racialized even before we can walk, even before we even know what a "race" is. We are engulfed by those issues even if we dont want to know about it, even if we dont care about it, even if we want to ignore it, it will eventually come back! Even if I just wanna spin records, chill at the club, enjoy, but racism is there, its a soooo subtle thing, quiet but deadly, its just like cancer, it lurks in everyones minds, inside the thoughts and discourses of people, even inside "liberal" people, way beyond the reach of a public demonstration.

Racism is not our left-wing hobby, racism is not our liberal interest, its our life sentence! We have no choice. Racism is why we are even "Asian" at all. I was out there struggling for gay and ethnic equality under the Thatcher government when you were two years old.In his attempt to play up the liberal thing again, he has just subjected me to Age Discrimination. I believe he told me to "oh grow up"... Should a young Asian guy like me be all quiet and submissive to conform to some closetted-Orientalist expectations?? Is there no end to what I have to endure in here?

I honestly dont care if he picketted and demonstrated against Thatcher, Major and Blair half his life... I have met many White "antiracist activists" before, I don't only consider the surface image that they transmit to the public, but I also seriously analyze their deeper discourses and inner attitudes. For quite a few of those White "antiracists", despite the surface image and public face they protray, many have forgotten to weave their very selves as "White" into the heart of the matter. Looking at his words, he obviously has a very two-dimensional and limited understanding of what "race" actually is, where "race" came from, and what "racisms" actually are. Is it just about "White guy kills Asian guy, so lets picket"?? No, thats just one awful layer of it, there still remains a whole web of complex layers underneath..

It is very good that movingforward has spoken up. Indeed, I appreciate movingforward's openly subjective perspective. Yes thats right, subjective. Despite everyones pretensions to impossible "objectivity", its "subjectivity" that speaks volumes and its subjectivity that holds the truth. He seems like a really cool person, too bad theres not more people like him. movingforward, if you study Chinese philosophy, and try to control the sublte Orientalisms, you might be able to realize a truth beyond "race" that was realized millenia ago by Eternal Buddha.

So you see, those two people, ironically they are both "Caucasian", both 39 years old. But movingforward is truly hundreds of miles forward, as evidenced by his approach to the issue with humility, consideration, sincere self-reflexivity, self-critique, and grace. While that other guy, despite overtly advertising to everyone his past Left-wing extra-curricular activities, so obviously adopts the overbearing attack of a White establishment position, that it betrays his own Discriminatory attitudes.. Its there entrenched in his discourse. He adopts the majority role to stamp out a minority position, discredit a minority perspective, erase a minority experience. Its a tragic irony that mimics the structure of Western Imperialism and Hegemony itself.

though my love of the challenges of Mandarin and my gravitational pull towards China probably will see me...gulp, spreading some more English to my friends and whomever I encounter the first days of my travels in China - but I promise: it will not be to trump or trounce - it will be objective responses to what they demand. I'm not being facetious here - you are the teacher, I'm the student - I'm leveling with you and your impact on my senses this day.Yes keep up your study of Chinese, despite being like a branch against a typhoon, keep at it! But what ever you do, please dont feel 'guilt', but rather have a critical awareness of the situation, a self reflexivity, and consideration for the contexts. As long as the situation, and the people involved are not entrenched in some kind of context that devalues local cultures, while glorifying Western ones, then go and help out those people who sincerely what to learn English from you. If you want I can post something on anticolonial approaches to English teaching...

Thanks, Im not a teacher...but just having the fortune to listen to your interpretation of this issue, its something Ive learned from. Hey, if we are mutually teaching and studying from each other, humbly and considerately, thats the best approach.. :smile:

but now gotta get back to my work...

[kimpossible]

Before I go further on this thread, something very important needs to be pointed out...Of course. But in unfortunate cases such as this, there is a very disturbing and seriously offensive Discriminatory-Subtext in that person's words. Despite token claims to being "Liberal", Discriminatory attitudes are directly connected and enmeshed into that person himself. Unfortunately that person seems incapable of Humble Self-Reflection and Sincere Self-Critique. They approach this issue with obvious Arrogance and Pride! An aggressive desire to attack and defeat opponents. Given the subject matter its a disturbing parrallel to past historical events. An unfortunate combination for those who have to endure it... I was honestly shocked! I never expected to experience that kind of Discrimination directed towards me in here YW, of all places?

I think all SWK meant is a general statement that served as a reminder, especially since we're not all reading through this thread.

[yuuteya]

Sources criticizing Western Colonialism & Imperialism, from perspectives of Political-Economics, Literary Critique, Colonial Discourse Analysis are numerous and have been around for decades. While the critical approaches have shifted from the Frantz Fanon, Chinua Achebe & Ngugi-wa-Thiongo approaches towards the Said, Homi Bhabha & Gayatri Spivak approaches, the underlying point remains clear... documenting, exposing and criticizing Western Imperialism for the de-humanization that it was and still is! Its about violence, but not just in terms of physical military-economic attacks and invasions of the past... its also about the very real, lingering and insideous psychological-cultural impacts in the present, today!... People often wonder where does Race and Racism come from?? ...Whats the connection between Orientalism, Race & Sex?? Why do people today still hold onto eroticized/non-eroticized images of "Negros" and "Orientals"?? ...Study Western colonial and imperial history and discourses, and you'll find out... Sickening story!...

The days of old-fashioned imperialism and direct colonies may be (mostly) over, but the ripples and after-effects still continue alive and well... Colonial ideas fabricated by White Imperialists and Racists from 200 years ago still remain inside everyones thoughts and words today!... Its all become a "normal" part of the English language!... Its hasnt gone away at all... And there's still neo-colonial relationships and Western cultural hegemony that still remains, which still lingers on...

On approaching English in a critically aware way... Here is one recommended and critically acclaimed work by an Asian scholar of Tamil-Sri Lankan descent. While there are various other works criticizing Western Lingusitic Imperialism made by (ironically) White/Western scholars, I find Suresh Canagarajah not only offers theories, but also some critical pedagogy and critical methods from an Asian perspective.

Resisting Linguistic Imperialism by Dr. Suresh Canagarajah (http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-442154-6)

About Dr. Suresh Canagarajah of Baruch College, CUNY (http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/wsas/departments/english/faculty/canagarajah.html)