YW Working Definitions

[hooligan]

I guess if terminology is tossed around without a good working definition we're all going to try to work with. I'm not looking for the Oxford's English dictionary 's definition of race, racism or anything like that, but something that YW'ers can work with when we talk about issues of race, privelege and discrimination. This is not based on anything scientific or factual, but I hope that this thread will serve as a base in which arguments are shaped. For example:



racism - power + prejudice = racism. The argument behind this is that most people prejudge whether they like it or not. We prejudge and discriminate as a natural tendency of survival or even understanding. The problem is that when certain values and norms are placed on people due to another group's hold on power (either as the dominant cultural standard or the majority) prejudice is backed by power. Thus we get an -ism (not our beloved ism). When people with power prejudge based on race, that's racism.


APIA - Asian Pacific Islander American. An umbrella term describing Asian Pacific Islander America. Problematic, but probably the best description or our larger community. Encompassing, South Asians, Southeast Asians, Pacific Islanders, East Asians and Central Asians. A total of 52 ethnicities are represented by this title.


LGBTIQQ - Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer, and Questioning. I'm not in a position to definie this term very well, due to my position of privelege as a heterosexual male.


Gender - I won't define this either.


Person of Color - An individual who identifies themself as a person who struggles under the issue of race. APIA studies Professors regard APIAs as people of color because of our struggles with the issues of race and discrimination. Generally noted to be Black, Brown, Red, or Yellow.
Please contribute! Working definitions only please, this is a grassroots effort based on popular education. Tell me your definitions, we'll have a debate.

[kpih]

Gender is the social contruction of sex. Sex is biologically defined, while gender is socially defined.

[kasia]

racism - power + prejudice = racism. The argument behind this is that most people prejudge whether they like it or not. We prejudge and discriminate as a natural tendency of survival or even understanding. The problem is that when certain values and norms are placed on people due to another group's hold on power (either as the dominant cultural standard or the majority) prejudice is backed by power. Thus we get an -ism (not our beloved ism). When people with power prejudge based on race, that's racism.


is power really a necessary component? can't one be racist absent the holding of any power? i'd say it's prejudice + deliberate ignorace. thus, once may be prejudiced about Asians initially simply because he has not been made aware of the truth. however, once he has a reason to doubt his belief(s) and deliberately fails to acknowledge that doubt because he wants to continue believing what he does about Asians, then that is racism. racist thought, then, can also be carried over to one's actions.

when a company initially doesn't hire Asians, for example, because they believe them to be too submissive, i would say that is discrimination and not legal, but not necessarily racist. however, once there is any indication that the company should have known that their belief about Asians was incorrect, then that would render them racist.



APIA - Asian Pacific Islander American. An umbrella term describing Asian Pacific Islander America. Problematic, but probably the best description or our larger community. Encompassing, South Asians, Southeast Asians, Pacific Islanders, East Asians and Central Asians. A total of 52 ethnicities are represented by this title.


i don't disagree with this definition, but i've always found it to be strange. do east asians and southeast asians share overall the same sort of experiences as south asians and pacific islanders (maybe the latter, but surely not the former, right?) in our law school, we had the asian pacific american law student association (APALSA), which all the east asian and pacific islanders joined. then there was the middle eastern south asian law student association (MESALA).


Gender - I won't define this either.


some people would differentiate 'gender' from 'sex', arguing that gender is a social contruction whereas sex is a biological construction. i've always felt that both are social constructions. i mean, whose idea was it anyway to separate us in accordance to our sexual organs and not eye color?

[SunWuKong]

racism - power + prejudice = racism. The argument behind this is that most people prejudge whether they like it or not. We prejudge and discriminate as a natural tendency of survival or even understanding. The problem is that when certain values and norms are placed on people due to another group's hold on power (either as the dominant cultural standard or the majority) prejudice is backed by power. Thus we get an -ism (not our beloved ism). When people with power prejudge based on race, that's racism.


i disagree with this definition, but i've mentioned it before. i think this definition was invented by black activists and academics to exploit the power of the word "racism" and claim a monopoly of victimhood as well as to say that black people "can't be racist".

[Chu Chi]

Racism: 1. mistreatment based on color and/or factors associated with color.

2. White supremacy



CC

[kasia]

note: making this thread a sticky.

[Chu Chi]

White person:

1. A person who classifies themselves as "White".

2. A person who is classified as "White" by other people who classify themselves as "White".

3. A person who functions as a White person in all areas of people activity.

(note: I am a non white person so I could be incorrect)

[hooligan]

is power really a necessary component? can't one be racist absent the holding of any power? i'd say it's prejudice + deliberate ignorace. thus, once may be prejudiced about Asians initially simply because he has not been made aware of the truth. however, once he has a reason to doubt his belief(s) and deliberately fails to acknowledge that doubt because he wants to continue believing what he does about Asians, then that is racism. racist thought, then, can also be carried over to one's actions.

when a company initially doesn't hire Asians, for example, because they believe them to be too submissive, i would say that is discrimination and not legal, but not necessarily racist. however, once there is any indication that the company should have known that their belief about Asians was incorrect, then that would render them racist.
i think power has to be taken into account because without power racial stereotypes and beliefs cannot be forced into the mainstream. Maybe we also need to define power because without power behind the beliefs I don't believe those beliefs will ever take such a hold like they have in the US.

My argument to your point would be that the company has the power right? Therefore by them practicing discrimination they're exercising both power and prejudice and fits the framework of racism. I think that ignorance is a facet of having power.

i disagree with this definition, but i've mentioned it before. i think this definition was invented by black activists and academics to exploit the power of the word "racism" and claim a monopoly of victimhood as well as to say that black people "can't be racist".
I think you're assuming that this comment contains already preconceived notions of how the african americans perceive themselves. Just because one group has power and one does not, does not mean that they're victims.

[kasia]

I think you're assuming that this comment contains already preconceived notions of how the african americans perceive themselves. Just because one group has power and one does not, does not mean that they're victims.

i'm not really following this. could you explain a little more - especially the last sentence.

[hooligan]

i'm not really following this. could you explain a little more - especially the last sentence.
Well, the way I define power is the ability to control what goes on in one's life. It's perceived as how much control we have on the outcomes of our lives. Assuming that one group has power to control their lives or have more control does not mean that another group is automatically victims of the other group. It does mean that another group may have less power to control what goes on in their lives.

I think SWK phrased his response noting that Blacks were "victims", or at least he assumed that African Americans who wanted to use their own definitions to describe their situation made it seem as though they victimized themselves for whatever reason. I believe, like the APIA scholars and activists during that time, they sought a vocabulary that could better portray how much control they had in the situation and thus show that race is defined by those who have the power to define it.

[kasia]

Well, the way I define power is the ability to control what goes on in one's life. It's perceived as how much control we have on the outcomes of our lives. Assuming that one group has power to control their lives or have more control does not mean that another group is automatically victims of the other group. It does mean that another group may have less power to control what goes on in their lives.

i'm a bit confused, though. so if a person who i find is completely inconsequential in my life happens to have racist thoughts about me - or even attempts (but fails) to commit a racist act against me - is it your belief that because this person does not have the power to influence my life or affect me that he or she is not racist?

[hooligan]

i'm a bit confused, though. so if a person who i find is completely inconsequential in my life happens to have racist thoughts about me - or even attempts (but fails) to commit a racist act against me - is it your belief that because this person does not have the power to influence my life or affect me that he or she is not racist? Pretty much, I'm going to go out there and say this, but we all have racial biases and prejudices, but does this make us racists? Not really, because we do not have the power to control other people's lives. When people try to exert that power on other people either through threats or verbal abuses that's them trying to alter power or at least that person trying to exert their power over you (making you feel less of a person, etc.). They're exerting power.

I see your point though, maybe what may be more appropriate would be using that definition over a societal scope, instead of applying it individually. HM.



Institutional Racism - Racism found in institutions and not in a specific target (ie a person). This type of racism is found within laws, educational philosophy, company by-laws. Basically, the written and structural institutions of a society. Can be created by someone who acts upon racism and also institutional racism can be a by-product of ignorance. (feel free to add to definition).

[kpih]

Institutional Racism - Racism found in institutions and not in a specific target (ie a person). This type of racism is found within laws, educational philosophy, company by-laws. Basically, the written and structural institutions of a society. Can be created by someone who acts upon racism and also institutional racism can be a by-product of ignorance. (feel free to add to definition).


Institutional racism is observed when racism is embedded and operates in every stage of the intitutional procedures (employment, education, criminal justice, law, etc). For instance, in the criminal justice process, from the initial encounter to the correctional process one can easily identify racism in every stage. The operators might not even necessarily realize they are exercising racism. Hence racism operates in episodic nature, contributing to a larger outcome (i.e. disparaty in different populations in corrections). Therefore institutional racism is subtle enough and can be easily dismissed by defenders. Also it requires institutional level remedies that tackles the entire system istead of piece meal procedural changes.

Also, the classic Weberian definition of power is the capacity to make other people do things according to your will.

[SunWuKong]

I think you're assuming that this comment contains already preconceived notions of how the african americans perceive themselves. Just because one group has power and one does not, does not mean that they're victims.

no, but saying one group can always only be the victim of racism and not the instigator of it is saying that they're perpetual victims.

[deez nuts]

i disagree with this definition, but i've mentioned it before. i think this definition was invented by black activists and academics to exploit the power of the word "racism" and claim a monopoly of victimhood as well as to say that black people "can't be racist".

i've adopted that definition of racism, myself.

[Chu Chi]

I don't think it's a conspiracy. Many--not including Black-Americans--believe racism is only "Black and White." It's not believed that racism can come from or be toward other backgrounds.


Racism is mistreatment based on color.


Evidence:

Many "Black" people wish they were "White" (Oreos)

Many "Yellow" people wish they were "White" (Bananas)

Many people say they are non color (White) even though their skin has color.

CC

[hooligan]

Racism is mistreatment based on color.


Evidence:

Many "Black" people wish they were "White" (Oreos)

Many "Yellow" people wish they were "White" (Bananas)

Many people say they are non color (White) even though their skin has color.

CC
This definition is also narrow, probably what Kasia was getting at with my definition. Where would racist thoughts and racist caricatures be filed under? It's not only the mistreatment, but also the total culture of beliefs as well.

[nola]

Yes the holistic way to look at it is racism encompasses attitudes, thoughts, speech and action.

[Shuriken]

I believe that racism in the United States is exclusively white against non-white.

White people laid the foundation for this country, the United States, and its racial attitudes towards Native Americans, blacks, Asians, and others. It was white people who institutionalized slavery, Indian resettlement, Asian exclusion, and other racial legacies which often favored white people at the expense of other races, and the vestiges of which still must be dealt with today.

Therefore, I see racial bigotry by non-whites to be primarily a reaction to the racial attitudes ingrained in this country's founding by Euro-Americans. I believe that people of color in the U.S. can be bigoted, prejudiced, and discriminatory — but I personally do not regard such sentiments as "racist." I think that people of color can be racist only in contexts where they are the dominant race.

However, not too many people — on this site or elsewhere — share this definition of "racism" with me. At any rate, whether you agree with me or not, I think that the U.S. needs to distinguish between the political dominance of racial prejudice by whites and the non-dominance of racial prejudice by non-whites.

[Chu Chi]

This definition is also narrow, probably what Kasia was getting at with my definition. Where would racist thoughts and racist caricatures be filed under? It's not only the mistreatment, but also the total culture of beliefs as well.





The best way to identify what a person thinks is by what they SAY and what they DO.

CC

[hooligan]

social justice - What I believe the movement is moving toward. Social justice is the idea that our society is inherently inequal and we must mediate these injustices to make our society, more fair, more just, and open opportunities to everyone. Social justice is a loosely defined term to discuss acts of oppression and discrimination in whatever your sexual orientation, gender, race, creed, and however else we categorize ourselves.

heterosexism - This belief stems from sexism, where a person or institution may believe that say, the idea of marriage is between a man and a woman. Examples can be assuming that a woman automatically must be with a man or vice versa, instead of using the term "significant other."


The best way to identify what a person thinks is by what they SAY and what they DO.

CC

True, but again, racism is not excluded by actions because there's also beliefs and these get ingrained in laws and institutions.

[Chu Chi]

[list]
True, but again, racism is not excluded by actions because there's also beliefs and these get ingrained in laws and institutions.


Beliefs get "ingrained" in laws and institutions by SAYING and DOING.

If a person can't talk or act, it doesn't matter what they "believe".

CC

[Edward Williams]

I don't think it's a conspiracy. Many--not including Black-Americans--believe racism is only "Black and White." It's not believed that racism can come from or be toward other backgrounds.
This is because white people who practice racism (white supremacy) only see the world in white or non-white...meaning white or black. To a white person that practices white supremacy (racism) every person that is not white is black.

This definition is also narrow, probably what Kasia was getting at with my definition. Where would racist thoughts and racist caricatures be filed under? It's not only the mistreatment, but also the total culture of beliefs as well.
The effect of the beliefs of white people who practice white supremacy (racism) is mistreatment. Anything that happens to a person that is classified as and forced to function as non-white, that should not happen to that person, under the global SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism), is mistreatment on the basis of color...because the SYSTEM is based on color mistreatment.

[achtungbaby]

The effect of the beliefs of white people who practice white supremacy (racism) is mistreatment. Anything that happens to a person that is classified as and forced to function as non-white, that should not happen to that person, under the global SYSTEM of white supremacy (racism), is mistreatment on the basis of color...because the SYSTEM is based on color mistreatment.
Please refrain from regurgitating your Counter-Racism rhetoric here. If you must speak using your "supremacy" paradigms, please substitute "yellow" for "white" since we discuss Asian & Pacific Islander issues on this site and we are in fact endeavoring to contain the yellow supremacy that threatens our country.

[mr. x]

White person: "If you stand in the middle of a Klan rally and nobody gives you shit, you are white"

[RangerX]

I believe that racism in the United States is exclusively white against non-white.

White people laid the foundation for this country, the United States, and its racial attitudes towards Native Americans, blacks, Asians, and others. It was white people who institutionalized slavery, Indian resettlement, Asian exclusion, and other racial legacies which often favored white people at the expense of other races, and the vestiges of which still must be dealt with today.

Therefore, I see racial bigotry by non-whites to be primarily a reaction to the racial attitudes ingrained in this country's founding by Euro-Americans. I believe that people of color in the U.S. can be bigoted, prejudiced, and discriminatory — but I personally do not regard such sentiments as "racist." I think that people of color can be racist only in contexts where they are the dominant race.

However, not too many people — on this site or elsewhere — share this definition of "racism" with me. At any rate, whether you agree with me or not, I think that the U.S. needs to distinguish between the political dominance of racial prejudice by whites and the non-dominance of racial prejudice by non-whites.

I agree with you that Racism is the mistreatment of People on the basis of Color.

White over Non-White.

However,

"in the United States" ?

What or Who is stopping a Racist White Supremacist from practicing Racism White Supremacy anywhere on this planet ?

-RangerX
RWSWJ

[achtungbaby]

White over Non-White.
Please read my post to Edward Williams (who I'm sure you know).

[Edward Williams]

Please refrain from regurgitating your Counter-Racism rhetoric here. If you must speak using your "supremacy" paradigms, please substitute "yellow" for "white" since we discuss Asian & Pacific Islander issues on this site and we are in fact endeavoring to contain the yellow supremacy that threatens our country.
I'm also the person Virtual_GOD who was banned here months ago. Same person. If you are a yellow person I'm here so that I can use words to reveal truth in a manner that justice is promoted...and also...if you are a yellow person you can mistreat me on the basis of color again and ban me...again.

[achtungbaby]

I'm also the person Virtual_GOD who was banned here months ago. Same person. If you are a yellow person I'm here so that I can use words to reveal truth in a manner that justice is promoted...and also...if you are a yellow person you can mistreat me on the basis of color again and ban me...again.
Happy to oblige you:)

[Chu Chi]

YELLOWWORLD: any place where a political Asian consciousness is cultivated.

CC

[kitty]

YELLOWWORLD: any place where a political Asian consciousness is cultivated.

CC

problems with your definition:

1) we are not 'any place'. Yellowworld is a single organization. I'm sure other orgnanizations who do similar things would be upset if we were to try to incorporate them into a definition of us.

2) Asian American

[Chu Chi]

problems with your definition:

1) we are not 'any place'. Yellowworld is a single organization. I'm sure other orgnanizations who do similar things would be upset if we were to try to incorporate them into a definition of us.

2) Asian American

Whenever I am not given a definition of a term, I employ compensatory logic and make one up.

I will continue using the definition I made up UNTIL I am given a better one.


CC

[hooligan]

Whenever I am not given a definition of a term, I employ compensatory logic and make one up.

I will continue using the definition I made up UNTIL I am given a better one.


CC

What is political consciousness and what does it have to do with YW? (This isn't directed at Chu Chi, but everyone here).

[Chu Chi]

What is political consciousness and what does it have to do with YW? (This isn't directed at Chu Chi, but everyone here).


Good question Hooligan, I based my definition on the subtitle below the web site name.

In answer to your question, I suspect it is related to what a person SAYS and DOES.

CC

[Napoleon Chynamite]

problems with your definition:

1) we are not 'any place'. Yellowworld is a single organization. I'm sure other orgnanizations who do similar things would be upset if we were to try to incorporate them into a definition of us.

2) Asian American

3) A socio-political Asian American consciouness is not always being cultivated here. There's trolling, trash-talk, pointless bullshit that doesn't make any sense and beating around the bush, debates or conversation about a variety of other different topics, etc. as well~

[hooligan]

3) A socio-political Asian American consciouness is not always being cultivated here. There's trolling, trash-talk, pointless bullshit that doesn't make any sense and beating around the bush, debates or conversation about a variety of other different topics, etc. as well~

STFU n00b, if I wanted your opinion on what YW is to you I would have asked you. ; )

On-topic please. :biggrin:

[AngryABCGirl]

this thread sounds like the first day of an ethnic studies class

[Chu Chi]

this thread sounds like the first day of an ethnic studies class


words are critical to the thinking process; so much so that you can look at something and not see it due to your lack of a word to describe it.

When you study anything, it is best to define the words you use to think with.


http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/omd/contents/immunology.html


That way, when you see something, you know what you are looking at.


CC

[deez nuts]

words are critical to the thinking process; so much so that you can look at something and not see it due to your lack of a word to describe it.

When you study anything, it is best to define the words you use to think with.


http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/omd/contents/immunology.html


That way, when you see something, you know what you are looking at.


CC

are you suffering from an immunological deficiency? or just a logical deficiency.

oh god, i'm too funny.

uh yeah thanks for the lesson in basic medical immunology.

[Chu Chi]

JUSTICE: Guarenteeing no person is mistreated and making sure the person who needs the most help gets the most help.

CC

[hooligan]

power - the ability to influence important decisions (jobs, access to money, choice of priorities), and a wide variety of other life areas down to the most personal concerncs, such as whether two people are going to make love on a given night or not. (source : "Understanding and Fighting Sexism: A call to men" by Peter Blood, Alan Tuttle, and George Lakey) And as I might add, something that many people of color lack, as well as, women, the queer community, and people with disabilities.
This definition may help with the definition of racism: http://forums.yellowworld.org/showpost.php?p=354819&postcount=1

Also, it does not imply victimization, it's another lens to view the world we live in.

JUSTICE: Guarenteeing no person is mistreated and making sure the person who needs the most help gets the most help.

CC

I think we ought to also point out that justice should also be the availability of opportunity for all, regardless of class, race, or other social identity.

[Chu Chi]

[list]
[


I think we ought to also point out that justice should also be the availability of opportunity for all, regardless of class, race, or other social identity.

Hooligan, I think my definition of Justice covers that.

To deny a person opportunity would qualify as mistreatment and would therefore violate the first clause of my definition of Justice.

The definition is "airtight". The only challenge I ever get on it is the occasional smartass who demands a definition of mistreatment.

A quick kick to the shin usually helps them understand what mistreatment is.

CC

[nola]

That's a nice attitude, Chu Chi.

[Chu Chi]

RELIGION: A strong belief supported by action.

CC

[Chu Chi]

SECRET: Information known only to one person.

CC

[truMp]

Does anyone have a definite definition for CRUNK? I've asked people and I've been getting a ton of different answers. Shouldn't there only be one? eh?

[kitty]

no one can be told what crunk is... you have to see it for yourself...

[deez nuts]

Does anyone have a definite definition for CRUNK? I've asked people and I've been getting a ton of different answers. Shouldn't there only be one? eh?

buffoonary and tom foolery

[Chu Chi]

hmmm...

Im not sure what "crunk" is, but based on the architecture of the word, I suspect it pertains to "crooked [krook'id] funk" i.e, funk music that is not straight.

Does anyone have an example of "crunk" that I can listen to?

CC

[Chu Chi]

MULTICULTURALISM: The practice of doing more than one thing.

CC

[nola]

You're losing me Chu Chi! and cracking me up at the same time! :smile:

[Irezumi Kiss]

no one can be told what crunk is... you have to see it for yourself...
Sometimes it's not only seeing "crunk" for oneself but SMELLING it as well!

It can also refer not only to a particular music genre, but also to the state of being really REALLY drunk, high or both all at once!

[yick]

when a company initially doesn't hire Asians, for example, because they believe them to be too submissive, i would say that is discrimination and not legal, but not necessarily racist. however, once there is any indication that the company should have known that their belief about Asians was incorrect, then that would render them racist.

I'm not quite clear on what you are saying. You stated earlier that your definition of racism is prejudice + deliberate ignorance, yet you stipulate that a company that doesn't hire Asians because of the fallacious belief that they are too submissive is simply discrimination but not necessarily racist. I would have to disagree with you as this is commonly known as systemic racism and would further say that any discrimination based on race is considered racist.

Therefore I propose that the definition of racism be discrimination + race.

i think power has to be taken into account because without power racial stereotypes and beliefs cannot be forced into the mainstream. Maybe we also need to define power because without power behind the beliefs I don't believe those beliefs will ever take such a hold like they have in the US.

With "power" there is the ability to propagate and entrench a belief in a culture/society but I don't see it as a necessary component of racism. Though more often than naught, minorities attempting to divest themselves of prejudices have to "attack" these "strongholds" of racist power to effectively create a change, a cultural paradigm shift if you will. So maybe that is where the inclination for some to define racism with a component of power comes from.

MULTICULTURALISM: The practice of doing more than one thing.

CC

Just to add something to the mix. In Canada multiculturalism is the practice of supporting the growth of and practice of one's culture. It doesn't mean one individual practices a variety of different cultures.

I find it interesting to see the disparate views between a society that is a "melting pot" (ie. US) vs a society that practices multiculturalism as defined above (ie. Canada).

[kasia]

I'm not quite clear on what you are saying. You stated earlier that your definition of racism is prejudice + deliberate ignorance, yet you stipulate that a company that doesn't hire Asians because of the fallacious belief that they are too submissive is simply discrimination but not necessarily racist. I would have to disagree with you as this is commonly known as systemic racism and would further say that any discrimination based on race is considered racist.

Therefore I propose that the definition of racism be discrimination + race.

but we discriminate on a daily basis based on race.

[yick]

but we discriminate on a daily basis based on race.

What's your point kasia? Just because some people choose to be racist "everyday" doesn't mean they aren't racist.

[kasia]

What's your point kasia? Just because some people choose to be racist "everyday" doesn't mean they aren't racist.

no, my point is that discrimination alone can't be racist. the act of discriminating is just categorizing, isn't it?

[hooligan]

no, my point is that discrimination alone can't be racist. the act of discriminating is just categorizing, isn't it?
It kind of ties itself back to power. If you discriminate with power that's inacting an "ism", hence racism is discriminating with power based on race.

[kasia]

It kind of ties itself back to power. If you discriminate with power that's inacting an "ism", hence racism is discriminating with power based on race.

perhaps. but then, with that definition, we'd have to concede that racism isn't so bad in *every* single case, because i can think of certain instances where one who is in the position of power can innocently discriminate on the basis of race because he lacks certain accurate information.

[yick]

perhaps. but then, with that definition, we'd have to concede that racism isn't so bad in *every* single case, because i can think of certain instances where one who is in the position of power can innocently discriminate on the basis of race because he lacks certain accurate information.

Precisely, I would argue there are different magnitudes of racism. Here's where the "power" concept comes into play. For me I'll assess my reaction to racism depending on the "source". If the source is an ignorant bum on the street I could give a flying f**k. However if it's a store clerk who's making my day that much shittier then I'll have issue, but I won't "invest" myself too much. Now if it's someone with power, ie. a supervisor, etc. then it's no holds barred and I'm going to do what I can to rip him/her a new a**hole. :biggrin:

[Chu Chi]

See...this is why its critical to define racism as mistreatment.

If you leave that word out, you are heading straight into the desert.

I choose coke over pepsi everytime,

I choose almond joys over mounds all the time,

I choose paper over plastic when I buy groceries...

Am I practicing racism or discriminationism?

CC

[yick]

See...this is why its critical to define racism as mistreatment.

If you leave that word out, you are heading straight into the desert.

I choose coke over pepsi everytime,

I choose almond joys over mounds all the time,

I choose paper over plastic when I buy groceries...

Am I practicing racism or discriminationism?

CC
You're just being discriminating in your choices, not practicing discrimination.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. But since I don't want to get into a disagreement because of semantics I'll include some definitions from my handy dandy dictionary.

I defined racism already as discrimination + race.

Discriminate : 1 recognize a difference. 2 make an unjust distinction in the treatment of different groups of people on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

I've underlines the definition applying this this line of convo. Clearly "unjust distinction in the treatment" is in the definition.

The definition isn't wholly complete because who know that the definition has also been expanded to the handicapped, homosexuals (in some places), religion, etc. etc. the list goes on and on.

[kasia]

You're just being discriminating in your choices, not practicing discrimination.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. But since I don't want to get into a disagreement because of semantics I'll include some definitions from my handy dandy dictionary.

I defined racism already as discrimination + race.

Discriminate : 1 recognize a difference. 2 make an unjust distinction in the treatment of different groups of people on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

I've underlines the definition applying this this line of convo. Clearly "unjust distinction in the treatment" is in the definition.

The definition isn't wholly complete because who know that the definition has also been expanded to the handicapped, homosexuals (in some places), religion, etc. etc. the list goes on and on.

i think we're getting somewhere.

to take it a step further, how would you define 'unjust'? is it unjust simply because it doesn't help our community? is it unjust because it is based on false information?


let's also define stereotypes...what makes a stereotype a stereotype - simply that it isn't correct in every single situation? what if it is correct in most? or some? our definition of what it is will determine, i would think, whether a stereotype is always harmful.

[yick]

i think we're getting somewhere.

to take it a step further, how would you define 'unjust'? is it unjust simply because it doesn't help our community? is it unjust because it is based on false information?

I would say that "unjust distinction" in this context would be synonymous with "unequal". Being judged with a different set of criteria because of our race, in the instance of racism. I would also contend there is no implication of whether the treatment has to be good for the community or whether it is based on false information.


let's also define stereotypes...what makes a stereotype a stereotype - simply that it isn't correct in every single situation? what if it is correct in most? or some? our definition of what it is will determine, i would think, whether a stereotype is always harmful.


A stereotype would have to be an occurance of a trait, action, characteristic, etc. that occurs or is perceived to occur in "enough" instances whereupon people can make a generalization. I don't think this is something that can be quantified. For instance not all asians have slanted brown eyes, yet that's a defining characteristic of asians. There is also the perceived notion that asians can't drive. I would argue that there are just as many non-asian drivers who can't drive, though I can see where this may stem from (discussion for later perhaps). And no it's not always bad either, but I would rather do away with them since they can restrict the opportunites afforded us. I'm also certain the perception that I know martial arts has detered conflict and kept me out of trouble (okay, okay I resemble that stereotype). But being perceived as timid number crunching "calculators" may detract some from giving asians an opportunity to explore, say management opportunities. (This last one may be a poor example but hopefully you get the gist. I really shouldn't be making any remarks when my brain is shutting down. :biggrin: )

[Chu Chi]

2 make an unjust distinction in the treatment of different groups of people on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

Thats the mistreatment.

If you don't get justice, you get mistreatment by default.

Yick, your definition works, but its the long way around.

But,

I don't suggest you take my word for it. Do the experiment. Observe a person interacting with their child or their dog. Describe their behavior as "discrimination.

Then describe their behavior as "mistreatment".

Notice the difference in response.

That "mis" prefix is lethal because it has the logic built into it:

MIStake

MISbehave

MISunderstand

MIScegenation

MISuse

MISfire

MISdeed

MIScarriage

MISadventure

MISconduct

MISfit

MISnomer

CC

[yick]

2 make an unjust distinction in the treatment of different groups of people on the grounds of race, sex, or age.

Thats the mistreatment.

If you don't get justice, you get mistreatment by default.

Yick, your definition works, but its the long way around.

But,

I don't suggest you take my word for it. Do the experiment. Observe a person interacting with their child or their dog. Describe their behavior as "discrimination.

Then describe their behavior as "mistreatment".

Notice the difference in response.

That "mis" prefix is lethal because it has the logic built into it:

MIStake

MISbehave

MISunderstand

MIScegenation

MISuse

MISfire

MISdeed

MIScarriage

MISadventure

MISconduct

MISfit

MISnomer

CC

Am I to understand that your definition is "racism = mistreatment" because that's all you've stated. You're arguing semantics and clearly my hope was that a definition would help clarify that. Clearly it hasn't because we're discussing the same thing. The word "mistreatment" is too broad a term, whereas "discrimination" is more apt. Anyway this is my opinion and you're entitled not to agree. This thread was not to discuss who's right and who's wrong, rather to discuss what certain words mean to us to open up a dialogue.

[hooligan]

perhaps. but then, with that definition, we'd have to concede that racism isn't so bad in *every* single case, because i can think of certain instances where one who is in the position of power can innocently discriminate on the basis of race because he lacks certain accurate information.

not necessarily, discrimination isn't bad, but racism is. i guess what we should also define is how power is used.

[yick]

not necessarily, discrimination isn't bad, but racism is. i guess what we should also define is how power is used.

Sorry run that by me again... DISCRIMINATION ISN'T BAD!!! What are you talking about? How can you say that when racism is a form of discrimination? Remember we're talking about discrimination in the context of human/race relations. We're not talking about choosing 1% milk over homo milk. If you're confusing semantics that one thing but if you honestly feel that way please explain.

[Chu Chi]

Am I to understand that your definition is "racism = mistreatment" because that's all you've stated. You're arguing semantics and clearly my hope was that a definition would help clarify that. Clearly it hasn't because we're discussing the same thing. The word "mistreatment" is too broad a term, whereas "discrimination" is more apt. Anyway this is my opinion and you're entitled not to agree. This thread was not to discuss who's right and who's wrong, rather to discuss what certain words mean to us to open up a dialogue.


OK,

RACISM:

1. Mistreatment based on color

2. White supremacy


Hows that?

CC

[kasia]

Sorry run that by me again... DISCRIMINATION ISN'T BAD!!! What are you talking about? How can you say that when racism is a form of discrimination? Remember we're talking about discrimination in the context of human/race relations. We're not talking about choosing 1% milk over homo milk. If you're confusing semantics that one thing but if you honestly feel that way please explain.

because we're using definitions. there were two that you listed in a previous post. we're going with the first definition of discrimination (categorizing) whereas you're going with the second. to clear things up, we should probably settle with one of them and define it clearly.

[yick]

because we're using definitions. there were two that you listed in a previous post. we're going with the first definition of discrimination (categorizing) whereas you're going with the second. to clear things up, we should probably settle with one of them and define it clearly.

Yeah that's fine but the context determines which definition to use. Anyway I think we should move on.

[hooligan]

APIA: An inclusive title given to people of Asian Pacific Islander descent. A very US-centric name where many people who identify as Asian or Pacific Islander identify with. Currently, I believe 52 countries and ethnicities are recognized as belonging to this title. They are as follows.

Asian Indian
Bangladeshi
Cambodian
Chinese, except Taiwanese
Filipino
Hmong
Indonesian
Japanese
Korean
Laotian
Malaysian
Pakistani
Sri Lankan
Taiwanese
Thai
Vietnamese
Other Asian

Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander race and ethnic categories
Self-identification among people of Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander descent. These are the 12 detailed Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander race and ethnic categories used in displaying data from Census 2000:

Polynesian:
Native Hawaiian
Samoan
Tongan
Other Polynesian
Micronesian:
Guanamanian or Chamorro
Other Micronesian
Melanesian:
Fijian
Other Melanesian
Other Pacific Islander

[Shuriken]

The 'Ms. Butterfly' Syndrome:

An Asian American woman liberates herself from Asian patriarchy by "liberating" herself from Asian men and into the arms of a more understanding, more considerate, more desirable white man. E.g.: The Joy Luck Club, Double Happiness, Red Doors.

[nola]

Hey she commits suicide at the end. Did you forget that part? And the guy is an unredeemable asshole.

[Shuriken]

Hey she commits suicide at the end. Did you forget that part? And the guy is an unredeemable asshole.

Now that miscegenation (i.e., interracial sex) is no longer taboo (as it was when Madame Butterfly was written), the Asian woman doesn't have to kill herself or be killed by another. Now, she can marry the white guy and live happily ever after — away from Asian men:

Lily doesn't kill herself in Come See the Paradise

The daughters don't kill themselves in The Joy Luck Club

Jade doesn't kill herself in Double Happiness...

[nola]

We should call it the JLC or Come See The Paradise syndrome then.

[bluemonq]

what's the reverse situation then? an act of god?

[Shuriken]

We should call it the JLC or Come See The Paradise syndrome then.

The difference is marked by my use of the word "Ms." instead of "Madame."

[Shogun Empress]

:confused:

Can we put our own definitions here?

[ChinaLama]

i disagree with this definition, but i've mentioned it before. i think this definition was invented by black activists and academics to exploit the power of the word "racism" and claim a monopoly of victimhood as well as to say that black people "can't be racist".

I don't think that definition can be used to say "black people can't be racist." even if black people are powerless in the entire American society, that does not mean they must be powerless in certain locations or certain roles. For instance, if a black employer denies someone a job because of their race, then in that case, he's being racist, because he holds power over someone else. Or a Black judge can be racist. Or if we extend the definition of "power," what about a black cop or a black criminal? They both have power over someone; in that case, their prejudice can be infused with power and lead to racism.

Same with Asians, Hispanics, etc.

[Chu Chi]

if a black employer denies someone a job because of their race, then in that case, he's being racist, because he holds power over someone else. Or a Black judge can be racist. Or if we extend the definition of "power," what about a black cop or a black criminal? They both have power over someone; in that case, their prejudice can be infused with power and lead to racism.

Same with Asians, Hispanics, etc.

Yeah, but when all is said and done, the smartest and most powerful people must ALLOW the event to STAND. Currently, those people are White people.

But I won't try to prove it to you, White people will take care of that part.


CC

[ChinaLama]

Yeah, but when all is said and done, the smartest and most powerful people must ALLOW the event to STAND. Currently, those people are White people.

But I won't try to prove it to you, White people will take care of that part.


CC

All I'm saying is a specific situation can be "racist." "Racism" doesn't have to simply mean a "society wide" thing, whatever that is. It may be true that blacks as a group are oppressed, but that doesn't mean specific blacks cannot be oppressors.

[LaiSteve66]

All I'm saying is a specific situation can be "racist." "Racism" doesn't have to simply mean a "society wide" thing, whatever that is. It may be true that blacks as a group are oppressed, but that doesn't mean specific blacks cannot be oppressors.

Understanding that is beyond his intellectual capabilities.

[NextNoName]

racism:

This term is closely related to recent European history. Therefore in a lot of ways this word may not be accurate (as per its dictionary meaning) when used on people other than European or Westerners.

Anyway, this is an outdated term because imperialist culture is no longer as it was.

[NextNoName]

APIA:

I have never heard of this. To be polite I guess we should say at least Islanders or Pacific Islanders.

[NextNoName]

LGBTIQQ:

Hmm... ok.

[NextNoName]

Gender:

This refers to male, female or neuter.

[hooligan]

racism:

This term is closely related to recent European history. Therefore in a lot of ways this word may not be accurate (as per its dictionary meaning) when used on people other than European or Westerners.

Anyway, this is an outdated term because imperialist culture is no longer as it was.

It still applies to cultures and societies which operated in either a colonialist or slave trade. And I find it frankly necessary to define it, especially in terms of the APIA experience.

[eos]

APIA:

I have never heard of this. To be polite I guess we should say at least Islanders or Pacific Islanders.

wait....doesn't APIA include the phrase pacific islander? or am i smoking crack?

[Banana]

Yes, it does.

Asian Pacific Islander American.

[NextNoName]

wait....doesn't APIA include the phrase pacific islander? or am i smoking crack?

Sure but for the same reason we don't call Japanese Jap, Chinese Chin, etc. To me APIA sounds weird, similar to Ah Qua, Ah Beng, etc. Islander or Pacific Islander just sounds so much more respectful.

[hooligan]

Sure but for the same reason we don't call Japanese Jap, Chinese Chin, etc. To me APIA sounds weird, similar to Ah Qua, Ah Beng, etc. Islander or Pacific Islander just sounds so much more respectful.

He brings up a great point, sometimes you just have to refer to them separately.