chinatowns

[kasia]

i'm interested in finding out what the different chinese enclaves are like around the world. can you please describe those that are in your area?

in nor cal, we have san francisco chinatown, oakland chinatown, east oakland "new" chinatown, clement, and much more. down here in so cal, there is l.a. chinatown and san gabriel valley.

i'll let others who live around those areas share their views on what those areas are like.

how are the chinatowns in the east coast? do the younger generation chinese hang out there? how about in the south?

[SunWuKong]

i'll let bunboy describe NYC chinatowns, because he grew up in NYC.

but i want to comment on chinese influence in canadian cities like toronto and vancouver. i can't call them "enclaves" because they really are not. HKers have been immigrating to vancouver and toronto in droves since the mid-80s. this is because the US tightened their immigration policy, however, canada was allowing people with enough money to immigrate. thus HKers who immigrated to canada usually were more well-off than the average HKers. in certain areas, there are businesses that reflect their counterparts in HK. the reason i don't call them enclaves is that they are spread out amongst the different parts of the city instead of packed in concentration like a chinatown is. the look of these businesses and mini-malls are very different from the layout of a chinatown. they look more like how things are in HK, except they have like 10 times the space than in HK :). personally i find chinatowns very backward in the way they look, and i find that many people, especially old people, who hang out in chinatowns are terribly trapped in an immigrant mentality that the rest of america is closing in on them.

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 30 2002, 04:24 AM
i'll let bunboy describe NYC chinatowns, because he grew up in NYC.

but i want to comment on chinese influence in canadian cities like toronto and vancouver.  i can't call them "enclaves" because they really are not.  HKers have been immigrating to vancouver and toronto in droves since the mid-80s.  this is because the US tightened their immigration policy, however, canada was allowing people with enough money to immigrate.  thus HKers who immigrated to canada usually were more well-off than the average HKers.  in certain areas, there are businesses that reflect their counterparts in HK.  the reason i don't call them enclaves is that they are spread out amongst the different parts of the city instead of packed in concentration like a chinatown is.  the look of these businesses and mini-malls are very different from the layout of a chinatown.  they look more like how things are in HK, except they have like 10 times the space than in HK  :).  personally i find chinatowns very backward in the way they look, and i find that many people, especially old people, who hang out in chinatowns are terribly trapped in an immigrant mentality that the rest of america is closing in on them.
yes. there is also a chinatown in vancouver though. kinda similar to the chinatown in s.f. i don't know about the other areas, but i don't think that the people in oakland or s.f. chinatown are backward in the way that they look. they just dress like poor people dress. but in l.a., yeh--most look and act backward.



<!--EDIT|kasia|Sep 30 2002, 04:28 AM-->

[SunWuKong]

yeah i don't want to sound like i'm looking down on chinatowns. maybe i'm just spoiled by HK's modernity. i happen to think that they reflect what a real overseas chinese community would be like, where chinese people call themselves chinese, and huaqiao, instead of chinese american. it is only in western countries that overseas chinese (and also other asians) have attached their host country's nationality to their own identity - chinese american, british chinese, chinese candian, etc etc. and with good reason, i think. but in southeast asia, chinese people just call themselves chinese. maybe with the exception of thailand. i suspect that chinese communities in southeast asia are not unlike the chinatowns in america.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 29 2002, 11:43 PM-->

[wylin]

u mean hacienda/ rowland heights and same w/ monterey park/ alhambra/ san gabriel

[thaite]

I've been to Chinatown in Bangkok. Pretty interesting.

[deez nuts]

There are basically two major versions of Chinatown in NY.

One the older version is in downtown Manhanttan which encompasses a decent size of lower Manhanttan. It used to be shared with the Italians (Little Italy). Little Italy is still there, but most of what used to be Little Italy was bought by Chinatown proprietors and obviously caused tension between the Italians and the Chinese. Chinatown Manhanttan is where the first generation of immigrants first settled and still is for the most part today.

The populus is generally comprised of Chinese from Canton, Shanghai and Fujian. It's not the cleanest of all places and even worse after 9/11. Home to gang turf wars etc etc, most young people don't really hang out there. They hang out in Flushing.

Flushing was the result of congestion of Chinatown and the high cost of living in Manhanttan. It's the "newer generation" of Chinese. The populus is mostly comprised of Chinese from Shanghai and Canton. It's the equivalent of Chinatown in terms of food market and quality of "real" Chinese food.

Young kids seem to hang out in Flushing more because it is easier to find parking and has a good abundance of clublife and bars. Flushing Chinatown is bordered and shared with the Flushing K-town. Once again initially causing some tension between Chinese and Korean peeps. But, it died down. Although it has it's share of Chinese gangs, it's not really as bad as Manhanttan's Chinatown.

NY doesn't have the numerous Chinatown you Californians have, I would suspect because obviously we're a smaller state. And upstate NY is primarily bumblefuck land. But, I think the Chinatowns in NY are prolly more congested and compact than the ones I've been to like DC, Chicago, Boston and possibly Cali? Which is good in the fact it's easily accessible via mass transit, everything is within walking distance and bad obviously for the sheer number of peeps.

For the other NY'ers or peeps that lived in NY, feel free to add to it, it's too much to encompass in one past hehe.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Sep 30 2002, 08:46 AM-->

[DaBestSpooner]

Dont forget the 2 chinatowns in brooklyn, and elmhurst is turning into chinatown.

I think there might be one in staten island too.

[wylin]

Originally posted by wylin@Sep 29 2002, 09:18 PM
u mean hacienda/ rowland heights and same w/ monterey park/ alhambra/ san gabriel
techically rowland/ hacienda is Taiwanese town/ land!

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 30 2002, 04:40 AM
it is only in western countries that overseas chinese (and also other asians) have attached their host country's nationality to their own identity - chinese american, british chinese, chinese candian, etc etc. and with good reason, i think.
well, Japan, also. I only met a few Chinese-Japanese while I was in Japan, mostly they're the grandkids of Japanese imperial subjects in Taiwan who came to Japan for higher studies. They spoke Japanese-accented Mandarin if any at all. most thought of themselves as Japanese. anyway, the famed "largest Chinatown in Japan" in Yokohama is rather non-impressive. Just a bunch of restaurants. Not a place to hang out. not even a very distinctive neighborhood. clean and boring.


i suspect that chinese communities in southeast asia are not unlike the chinatowns in america.


actually, some of my friends from M'sia who came to the US for the first time for university always bitch about how people in Chinatown (especially SF) look like they are worse off than even poor laborers back in Malaysia, the streets are dirtier, the people have a coarser attitude, etc.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 30 2002, 12:34 PM
actually, some of my friends from M'sia who came to the US for the first time for university always bitch about how people in Chinatown (especially SF) look like they are worse off than even poor laborers back in Malaysia, the streets are dirtier, the people have a coarser attitude, etc.
hehheh yeah, chinese communities in southeast asia are generally richer (speaking relatively to their host countries) than those in the western world.

[wylin]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 30 2002, 09:34 AM

well, Japan, also. I only met a few Chinese-Japanese while I was in Japan, mostly they're the grandkids of Japanese imperial subjects in Taiwan who came to Japan for higher studies. They spoke Japanese-accented Mandarin if any at all. most thought of themselves as Japanese. anyway, the famed "largest Chinatown in Japan" in Yokohama is rather non-impressive. Just a bunch of restaurants. Not a place to hang out. not even a very distinctive neighborhood. clean and boring.

well then dont rag on where my Lynn Minmei came from! well just to put things in perspective that macross character came from a china town in yokohama and it was visited in macross if i remember correctly.

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/art/mcr347l.jpg

[DaBestSpooner]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 30 2002, 12:34 PM

well, Japan, also. I only met a few Chinese-Japanese while I was in Japan, mostly they're the grandkids of Japanese imperial subjects in Taiwan who came to Japan for higher studies. They spoke Japanese-accented Mandarin if any at all. most thought of themselves as Japanese. anyway, the famed "largest Chinatown in Japan" in Yokohama is rather non-impressive. Just a bunch of restaurants. Not a place to hang out. not even a very distinctive neighborhood. clean and boring.


dont forget all the Chen Kenichi endorsed restaurants, the fairy tale chinatown decor that you see in movies like rush hour, love hotels on the side streets, and that awesome toys r us.

[raacluse]

:o Asian Arts Initiative in Philly has put out a call for ready-mounted photos of chinatowns. They plan an exhibit (forget when).

DL: 15 Oct.

Contact:

ASIAN ARTS INITIATIVE

1315 Cherry Street, 2nd Floor
Philadelphia, PA 19107
(215)557-0455

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Over Labor Day, I visited Boston and went on a private tour of Boston Chinatown given by local activists (people with AARW, CPA, etc.) The place has really changed over the years, and there've been lots of "encroachment" by developers and hospitals.

=- =- =- =- =-

If you wanna know about Chicago's chinatown, you can contact the guy that handles the ACON.org website.

=- =- =- =- =-

In DC, the Goethe Institute is located in Chinatown. They've published some pages at their website about the German Jewish heritage of the buildings (like some of the churches that used to be temples) in and around Chinatown.

(Note: Chinatown moved to its present-day location in the latter 30's, when they had to vacate their original place due to construction of a federal courthouse.)

[Ayers]

San Diego is rather devoid of asian culture. The small section of land that could constitute Chinatown is shared with koreans, thai, taiwanese, vietnamese, and japanese. It's 1 street (Convoy St.) and stretches approx 6 blocks with 1 Ranch99/Sam Woo's, 2 big chinese dimsum restaurants, and 5-6 tea shops (the other ethnic groups add to the street as well with karaoke, restaurants, etc).

Boston's Chinatown is also small and unkempt. Near Downtown Crossing is a few sq blocks packed tight with restaurants, shops and places to buy fresh chicken. Probably not the safest place to walk around at night.

[kasia]

Originally posted by buoywonder@Sep 30 2002, 08:10 AM
I've been to Chinatown in Bangkok. Pretty interesting.
interesting like how? is it like the chinatowns in the states?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

anyone been to chinatowns/Chinese enclaves outside China where the lingua franca was some dialect other than Cantonese? In Penang, most Chinese people speak some kinda Minnan dialect on the street (my friends from Taiwan claim it sounds really strange, though ... I have a hard enough time with Hokkien anyway so I wouldn't know if they have a really funny accent or not).

Similarly, around Johore, I can get by just Hakka if really necessary, but it's better to know at least some of Hokkien or Cantonese as well. But then go up to Kuala Lumpur and all the Chinese people speak in Cantonese, even kids who have Hokkien relatives, end up speaking Mandarin and Cantonese better.

edit: my friend who just came back from holiday in Thailand said he got around bangkok chinatown using only Mandarin, no need for English, other dialects, or busting out a phrasebook.



<!--EDIT|AliBabaIncorporated|Oct 2 2002, 04:12 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Oct 2 2002, 11:10 AM
anyone been to chinatowns/Chinese enclaves outside China where the lingua franca was some dialect other than Cantonese? In Penang, most Chinese people speak some kinda Minnan dialect on the street (my friends from Taiwan claim it sounds really strange, though ... I have a hard enough time with Hokkien anyway so I wouldn't know if they have a really funny accent or not).

Similarly, around Johore, I can get by just Hakka if really necessary, but it's better to know at least some of Hokkien or Cantonese as well. But then go up to Kuala Lumpur and all the Chinese people speak in Cantonese, even kids who have Hokkien relatives, end up speaking Mandarin and Cantonese better.

edit: my friend who just came back from holiday in Thailand said he got around bangkok chinatown using only Mandarin, no need for English, other dialects, or busting out a phrasebook.
alot of people in chinatown NYC speak the Toisan dialect... well but that's really just one version of cantonese...

[DaBestSpooner]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 2 2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Oct 2 2002, 11:10 AM
anyone been to chinatowns/Chinese enclaves outside China where the lingua franca was some dialect other than Cantonese? In Penang, most Chinese people speak some kinda Minnan dialect on the street (my friends from Taiwan claim it sounds really strange, though ... I have a hard enough time with Hokkien anyway so I wouldn't know if they have a really funny accent or not).

Similarly, around Johore, I can get by just Hakka if really necessary, but it's better to know at least some of Hokkien or Cantonese as well. But then go up to Kuala Lumpur and all the Chinese people speak in Cantonese, even kids who have Hokkien relatives, end up speaking Mandarin and Cantonese better.

edit: my friend who just came back from holiday in Thailand said he got around bangkok chinatown using only Mandarin, no need for English, other dialects, or busting out a phrasebook.
alot of people in chinatown NYC speak the Toisan dialect... well but that's really just one version of cantonese...
you barely hear toisan anymore in nyc's chinatown these days, its like all fukinese now. People grow older their kids make money, move their parents to queens or new jersey.


SF is like toisan paradise, everywhere you go you hear toisan.

[kasia]

thanks all...i'm taking notes on all of this.

my dream is to visit every chinese enclave in the world. :)

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Oct 5 2002, 05:44 AM
thanks all...i'm taking notes on all of this.

my dream is to visit every chinese enclave in the world. :)
read this book

Sons of The Yellow Emperor
by Lynn Pan

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Oct 5 2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Oct 5 2002, 05:44 AM
thanks all...i'm taking notes on all of this.

my dream is to visit every chinese enclave in the world. &nbsp; :)
read this book

Sons of The Yellow Emperor
by Lynn Pan
i will. thank you :)

[ChinaLama]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 30 2002, 01:33 PM
There are basically two major versions of Chinatown in NY.

The populus is mostly comprised of Chinese from Shanghai and Canton. It's the equivalent of Chinatown in terms of food market and quality of "real" Chinese food.

Young kids seem to hang out in Flushing more because it is easier to find parking and has a good abundance of clublife and bars. Flushing Chinatown is bordered and shared with the Flushing K-town. Once again initially causing some tension between Chinese and Korean peeps. But, it died down. Although it has it's share of Chinese gangs, it's not really as bad as Manhanttan's Chinatown.


I always thought of Flushing as a Shanghainese/Taiwanese place, didn't really think of it as being that Cantonese.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Oct 5 2002, 06:03 PM

I always thought of Flushing as a Shanghainese/Taiwanese place, didn't really think of it as being that Cantonese.
there is a sizable Caontonese population, but I don't think it's as large as say 5-8 years ago. Oooops forgot the Taiwanese, thanks for looking out.