Where the @#$% is Hapa Studies?

[Filiprish]

Article "The Emerging Hapa Community" by Wei Ming Dariotis, leading scholar in Hapa Studies:
http://www.asianweek.com/2002_11_01/feature_hapa.html

Wei Ming Dariotis' page at SFSU:
http://online.sfsu.edu/~dariotis/biography.html

In the US, we are the second largest group with Asian heritige, behind Chinese-Ams, yet Hapa Studies is a mere fanatasy for hapas. WTF!?!

[moJo]

nice, i had Wei-Ming Dariotis for english 1A or 1B at foothill college. she focused a lot on literature dealing with asian americans and race in general. she was a really effective teacher. glad to see that she's making her mark.

[rice cracker]

Perhaps "emerging" communities don't get studies? But if I see the emerging furry population getting a class before the mixed race community, then I'll be pissed.

[YuheiCarreau]

Probably the biggest reason there's no such thing as "Hapa Studies" is that a good deal of the "emerging hapa community" has yet to acquire pubic hair, much less a masters' degree. Also, it's not like it's a self-perpetuating community - my parents couldn't teach me to be Hapa, and I'll probably be in the same situation when I have kids...

[hooligan]

Probably the biggest reason there's no such thing as "Hapa Studies" is that a good deal of the "emerging hapa community" has yet to acquire pubic hair, much less a masters' degree. Also, it's not like it's a self-perpetuating community - my parents couldn't teach me to be Hapa, and I'll probably be in the same situation when I have kids...
it's interesting because at ucla there's a good number of 'hapa' grad students doing their masters. most of them define their experience within the realm of asian american pacific islander studies.

[Filiprish]

I don't know why U of Hawai'i at Manoa isn't pioneering Hapa Studies, considering Hawai'i is 22% Hapa. UH just has an broad Ethnic Studies program, not even Asian Studies either.

http://www.ethnicstudies.hawaii.edu/

[BeTheReds]

Not much to study. Hapa is an individual thing right now.

[AngryABCGirl]

There are studies and classes about the Multi-racial Asian Experience in Asian-American Studies.

[BeTheReds]

There are studies and classes about the Multi-racial Asian Experience in Asian-American Studies.

Exactly where they should be. However.... I think that there are some hapas out there who would rather consider hapas as a seperate entity from Asian-Americans thus deserving their own studies courses. I however disagree fully with this.

[Filiprish]

Exactly where they should be. However.... I think that there are some hapas out there who would rather consider hapas as a seperate entity from Asian-Americans thus deserving their own studies courses. I however disagree fully with this.
I'm one of those people. Otherwise we'll remain subordinate and marginalized. I'd rather Hapa-related courses be in Ethnic Studies, with other mixed race/heritage-related courses. They can be cross-listed in Asian Studies.

[hooligan]

I'm one of those people. Otherwise we'll remain subordinate and marginalized. I'd rather Hapa-related courses be in Ethnic Studies, with other mixed race/heritage-related courses. They can be cross-listed in Asian Studies.
I agree to a point, but unfortunately, Hapa is an identity that's not very well defined yet. Most hapas who do identify themselves as hapa choose to identify themselves with their Asian halves. That's why we find Hapa studies under Asian American studies.

[BeTheReds]

I agree to a point, but unfortunately, Hapa is an identity that's not very well defined yet. Most hapas who do identify themselves as hapa choose to identify themselves with their Asian halves. That's why we find Hapa studies under Asian American studies.


That's not true. Most hapas (or Eurasians) who identify themselves that way think that they are neither Asian nor (White, black, hispanic, etc) but rather something entirely new. Yet they also claim HUGE cultural differences with mulattos or orther non-Asian mixes. Furthermore the only commonality that hapas may have with each other is the fact that they are all mixed with Asian, thus it is where it belongs.

I'm one of those people. Otherwise we'll remain subordinate and marginalized. I'd rather Hapa-related courses be in Ethnic Studies, with other mixed race/heritage-related courses. They can be cross-listed in Asian Studies.


We can agree to disagree on this point, but keep in mind what Yellowworld exists for. The empowerment of the new Hapa ethnicity isn't what we here at YW or in this forum are trying to promote.

[hooligan]

That's not true. Most hapas (or Eurasians) who identify themselves that way think that they are neither Asian nor (White, black, hispanic, etc) but rather something entirely new. Yet they also claim HUGE cultural differences with mulattos or orther non-Asian mixes. Furthermore the only commonality that hapas may have with each other is the fact that they are all mixed with Asian, thus it is where it belongs.




We can agree to disagree on this point, but keep in mind what Yellowworld exists for. The empowerment of the new Hapa ethnicity isn't what we here at YW or in this forum are trying to promote.
ok ok, disclaimer: most hapas i know choose to identify themselves with their asian/asian american identity. then again, i do hang around a lot of asian american studies majors and minors.

[Filiprish]

I agree to a point, but unfortunately, Hapa is an identity that's not very well defined yet. Most hapas who do identify themselves as hapa choose to identify themselves with their Asian halves. That's why we find Hapa studies under Asian American studies.
That's why we need Hapa Studies to figure out how Hapas identify and so that they don't feel the need to completely identify with their Asian halves. They do this out of necassity/survival, but I know I don't. I'm Filipino and Irish, like my username says. I'm pretty much an average upper-middle class guy that happens to not be/look full "white". Tho, you can tell I'm Hapa -- I have distinct Asian and European facial features. I guess it's different for me 'cause I don't live on the West Coast or where there's a high % Asian population. I only relate to my Asian half, just like my Irish one. I don't consciously identify with either, or any socially constructed racial divide -- I refuse to. That may sound like liberal hogwash but it isn't. If you asked me what ethnic group I get along with best, I'd have to say Hispanics. The majority of Hispanics are mixed race/heritage themselves and I feel at home with them. Furthermore, I'd say I get along better with "white" people than Asians, this may not come as a surprise. As you can see, the Hapa experience is very complex -- don't underestimate it -- and my experience is a true testiment to the need for Hapa Studies, separate from Asian Studies. Well, we need to be studying mixed heritage, in general! Unfortunately, Mixed Heritage Studies remains a mere liberal pipe dream. :mad:

That's not true. Most hapas (or Eurasians) who identify themselves that way think that they are neither Asian nor (White, black, hispanic, etc) but rather something entirely new. Yet they also claim HUGE cultural differences with mulattos or orther non-Asian mixes. Furthermore the only commonality that hapas may have with each other is the fact that they are all mixed with Asian, thus it is where it belongs.
Mulattos, yeah, I can't really relate to but, like I just mentioned, I relate best to Hispanics.

We can agree to disagree on this point, but keep in mind what Yellowworld exists for. The empowerment of the new Hapa ethnicity isn't what we here at YW or in this forum are trying to promote.
Does that mean I can't use this medium to express my views, opposition to YW's purpose?

[BeTheReds]

Does that mean I can't use this medium to express my views, opposition to YW's purpose?

Lets PM about this one...

That's why we need Hapa Studies to figure out how Hapas identify and so that they don't feel the need to completely identify with their Asian halves. They do this out of necassity/survival, but I know I don't. I'm Filipino and Irish, like my username says. I'm pretty much an average upper-middle class guy that happens to not be/look full "white". Tho, you can tell I'm Hapa -- I have distinct Asian and European facial features. I guess it's different for me 'cause I don't live on the West Coast or where there's a high % Asian population. I only relate to my Asian half, just like my Irish one. I don't consciously identify with either, or any socially constructed racial divide -- I refuse to. That may sound like liberal hogwash but it isn't. If you asked me what ethnic group I get along with best, I'd have to say Hispanics. The majority of Hispanics are mixed race/heritage themselves and I feel at home with them. Furthermore, I'd say I get along better with "white" people than Asians, this may not come as a surprise. As you can see, the Hapa experience is very complex -- don't underestimate it -- and my experience is a true testiment to the need for Hapa Studies, separate from Asian Studies. Well, we need to be studying mixed heritage, in general! Unfortunately, Mixed Heritage Studies remains a mere liberal pipe dream. :mad:

You've proven nothing other than that each hapa identifies himself or herself uniquely. There isn't enough solidarity among hapas to form a "community" that's worth studying. Look at your post again and subtract every sentence that has "me" or "I" in it. Makes your post a lot smaller doesn't it? Hapas who consider themselves something different than the races of either of their parents have nothing to talk about other than themselves thus there isn't anything to study because there isn't a community with A) a common history, B) a common bloodline (i.e. extended family of the same race) or C) a common ancestral land that required adjustment from upon arrival to the USA. What really more can you study other than people talking about themselves? Is that anything to study? Just meet together and talk!

[Filiprish]

I repeat:

We need to be studying mixed heritage, in general! Unfortunately, Mixed Heritage Studies remains a mere liberal pipe dream. :mad:

Perhaps this is something a Sociology dept can handle, tho.

[SunWuKong]

would it take on more scope if "Hapa Studies" also examined people of mixed heritage around the world instead of being so concentrated on Asian Americans that are mixed? in my opinion, it would be kind of negligent to not study communities like the Peranakans and the Macanese (athough an extremely small group of people), and other similar communities.

[Filiprish]

I researched various schools West Coast schools -- U of Wash, Cal, UCLA, UCSD -- and (American) Ethnic Studies, Socio and Anthro depts do offer a course here and there related to mixed ethnicity.

U of Wash's course offerings are typical of the ones at the other schools:

(American) Ethnic Studies
http://depts.washington.edu/aes/courses/courses.html

Anthro
http://www.anthro.washington.edu/

Socio
http://www.soc.washington.edu/academics/courses/default.asp

These courses can simply be compiled into a formal Minor.

[BeTheReds]

I repeat:

We need to be studying mixed heritage, in general! .

Can I ask why?

[asvenus]

would it take on more scope if "Hapa Studies" also examined people of mixed heritage around the world instead of being so concentrated on Asian Americans that are mixed? in my opinion, it would be kind of negligent to not study communities like the Peranakans and the Macanese (athough an extremely small group of people), and other similar communities.

this i think is what i am more concerned about..if we assert that we do indeed need a separate 'hapa' discourse, then we need to really be certain about how inclusive it will all be and therefore how accurate it will be ..i agree with filiprish in that the current discourses on 'race' ,even so called mixed race identity..(or as you guys horribly put it 'mulatto' identity..bad bad :eek: ) leaves us marginalised..

also the difficulties of assigning who and what is a hapa has yet to be addressed by many of us before we start expecting it to become recognised by others who have not even heard of the term...i for one enjoy both sides of my heritage and revel in the idea of making my Asian heritge a focal and central point of my identity and how it is constructed..

because we are so used to making 'whiteness' the center of academic debate,particularly when speaking about 'race', anything that doesnt ally with that is marginalised..to be honest though, as with any ethnic group, we are so diverse and complex i think it would be hard to create a discourse that is inclusive and accurate..

[BeTheReds]

What's with all the fear of marginalization? Anyone care to explain?

[BeTheReds]

bumped on November 10, 2004

Question 1. Why do we need to study mixed heritage?

Question 2. How will the formation of a hapa movement seperate from an Asian-American one decrease the liklihood of marginalization?

[rice cracker]

*sigh* I'll give this a shot, but I've only been through a semester or two of formal educatin'.

#1: Because the odds are in favor that there will be an assload more people of mixed race in the future. These days I'm noticing a lot of hapa toddlers and mixed b/w people. That's a lot of future angst, man. So, like, the miscegen wedge of the sociology pie will be bigger, and more people will have a desire to know what makes that population tick. If, however, this question's scope only includes those of mixed Asian heritage, then the "need" for such studies would, in my guess, probably stay confined within the realm of psychology. I really hope that made sense. I'm pretty spun on coffee right now.

#2 is just going to have to wait. Heehee, that looks funny. K, back to work.

[BeTheReds]

*sigh* I'll give this a shot, but I've only been through a semester or two of formal educatin'.

#1: Because the odds are in favor that there will be an assload more people of mixed race in the future. These days I'm noticing a lot of hapa toddlers and mixed b/w people. That's a lot of future angst, man. So, like, the miscegen wedge of the sociology pie will be bigger, and more people will have a desire to know what makes that population tick. If, however, this question's scope only includes those of mixed Asian heritage, then the "need" for such studies would, in my guess, probably stay confined within the realm of psychology. I really hope that made sense. I'm pretty spun on coffee right now.



I acknowledge the truth in that, but I think that honestly you can't study mixed people as a group until the day that the 2nd generation of mixed people (meaning with 2 mixed parents) outnumbers the first. Otherwise it's an individual case by case study, and the sample size isn't going to be large enough to get anything out of such a study.

Furthermore, the people who would take this class voluntarily probably aren't the people who really need to take diversity classes.

[Filiprish]

Hey, wanna say I appreciate everyone's input thus far, despite how intelligent or thought-out it may or may not be. Warning: long post ahead (finally found the time I wanted to reply with in this thread).

Question 1. Why do we need to study mixed heritage?
I want Hapa Studies for the same reason why AAs want AA studies...to affirm an existence. Not only that, I want people to understand my experience and why I am the way I am. We cannot categorize Hapas w/ AAs for convenience (not saying you think this way). Hapas have experiences and perspectives separate to the ethnicities they descend from. In a progressive, individualistic society, as our's projects itself as, we cannot place or tolerate pressure on Hapas, or any individual of mixed ethnicity, to choose one of their ethnicities over one or more. Such a scenario is not ideal and completely backwards in a progressive, individualistic society. Not only that, it marginalizes one or more facets of a Hapas ethnic backgroud. Otherwise, hate to say it, is simply discriminatory. I frown upon Hapas who voluntarily and actively place value over one of their ethnicities over one or more b/c, IMO, it's the duty of Hapas, and others of mixed ethnicity, to bring people to together. Otherwise they are doing society and, particularly, themselves a critical disservice.

Question 2. How will the formation of a hapa movement seperate from an Asian-American one decrease the liklihood of marginalization?
As you know, there's more than one Hapa movement, all of which require mentioning. I'm witnessing four seperate ones. First, I see there's the EA Hapa movement which consists of individuals who are adament that they are superior simply due to the fact that the ethnic groups from which they are derived are the most dominant on the global front, regardless of how hot or not they are, and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Second, there's the Hapas, of any mix, who think they're superior and exotic simply b/c they're biracial, and and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Btw, both of the latter I have little love for. Third, there's the Hapas who value one of their ethnicities over one or more and attempt to assimmilate with that favored group yet never completely feel like they fit in, and never will. Last, there's the Hapas, and other multi-racials, who choose to their multi-ethnicity to break barriers and bring people together. I like to think belong to this movement.

To answer your question, b/c it makes society realize and acknowledge that Hapas have seperate experiences from the ethnic groups from which they descend. Once society realizes this it can no longer marginalize Hapas by telling them how to "act". No individual, no matter what ethnicity, should be expected to "act" their own ethnicity, which is usually the one they most look like, and labeled as eccentric if they don't.

*sigh* I'll give this a shot, but I've only been through a semester or two of formal educatin'.

#1: Because the odds are in favor that there will be an assload more people of mixed race in the future. These days I'm noticing a lot of hapa toddlers and mixed b/w people. That's a lot of future angst, man. So, like, the miscegen wedge of the sociology pie will be bigger, and more people will have a desire to know what makes that population tick.
I agree with what you said, it's likely that more and more multi-ethnic individuals are entering society and we need to educate this society to improve it's ethos b/c it's current one is jacked the fuck up. A multi-ethnic society that thinks an individual should "act" their own ethnicity is one doomed for destruction.

If, however, this question's scope only includes those of mixed Asian heritage, then the "need" for such studies would, in my guess, probably stay confined within the realm of psychology. I really hope that made sense. I'm pretty spun on coffee right now.
Btw, I'd be really pissed if the delivery of knowledge on people of mixed ethnicity remains simply a few paragraphs in a sociology or psychology textbook, or a single course in Ethnic and AA Studies, particulary AA studies.

#2 is just going to have to wait. Heehee, that looks funny. K, back to work.
Well, don't take too long. It'd be nice to get as much input as possible. :wink:

I acknowledge the truth in that, but I think that honestly you can't study mixed people as a group until the day that the 2nd generation of mixed people (meaning with 2 mixed parents) outnumbers the first. Otherwise it's an individual case by case study, and the sample size isn't going to be large enough to get anything out of such a study.
Let's study those Hapas in the first wave then...yes, on a case-by-case basis. Let's use their individual experiences as insight to what may be in store for individuals in the second wave. But, why do we have to wait until a second wave occurs? I forgot, we need a larger sample size. Perhaps we should've waited for Arabs to be interned before we studied internment due to the need for a larger sample size?

Furthermore, the people who would take this class voluntarily probably aren't the people who really need to take diversity classes.
Nothing wrong with that. At the very least, those who do need to take them will be aware of their existence. :wink:

[BeTheReds]

Hey, wanna say I appreciate everyone's input thus far, despite how intelligent or thought-out it may or may not be. Warning: long post ahead (finally found the time I wanted to reply with in this thread).


I want Hapa Studies for the same reason why AAs want AA studies...to affirm an existence.


I really don't think that's why they want them at all, but whatever.


Not only that, I want people to understand my experience and why I am the way I am.


Well in my opinion, no class that anyone takes is going to make them understand why YOU an individual are the way you are, like we said before and agreed upon, hapas are a pretty diverse group, and studying how one hapa or a few hapas individually feel about certain things, or studying about hapa celebs, or whatever you're proposing isn't going to teach anyone about why you are you.

We cannot categorize Hapas w/ AAs for convenience (not saying you think this way). Hapas have experiences and perspectives separate to the ethnicities they descend from.

Don't full blooded Asian-Americans as well?

In a progressive, individualistic society, as our's projects itself as, we cannot place or tolerate pressure on Hapas, or any individual of mixed ethnicity, to choose one of their ethnicities over one or more. Such a scenario is not ideal and completely backwards in a progressive, individualistic society.

But at the same time, isn't it someones choice if they choose to do that on their own? Certainly I agree that it is wrong to pressure someone into that. However I don't agree that it is backwards or regressive to choose which of your ethnicities you feel more comfortable identifying with.

Not only that, it marginalizes one or more facets of a Hapas ethnic backgroud. Otherwise, hate to say it, is simply discriminatory. I frown upon Hapas who voluntarily and actively place value over one of their ethnicities over one or more b/c, IMO, it's the duty of Hapas, and others of mixed ethnicity, to bring people to together. Otherwise they are doing society and, particularly, themselves a critical disservice.


I didn't know hapas had a duty. Furthermore, how will seperating affiliation from one or more ethnicities (asian/non-asian)to choose a new and different one (hapa) be bringing people together? Won't it be justifying the marginalization (meaning different treatment by) that the monoracial people do to us if we actually claim to be different?


As you know, there's more than one Hapa movement, all of which require mentioning. I'm witnessing four seperate ones. First, I see there's the EA Hapa movement which consists of individuals who are adament that they are superior simply due to the fact that the ethnic groups from which they are derived are the most dominant on the global front, regardless of how hot or not they are, and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Second, there's the Hapas, of any mix, who think they're superior and exotic simply b/c they're biracial, and and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Btw, both of the latter I have little love for.

That's totally unbiased. While I'll attest to the fact that there are definately people who feel superior because of their multiethnicity, I'll venture to say that most of them don't have a superiority complex, and that they only strive to meet other people like them for whatever reason. Some people need that, others don't.

Third, there's the Hapas who value one of their ethnicities over one or more and attempt to assimmilate with that favored group yet never completely feel like they fit in, and never will.

That's a little too general. I'd have no trouble trying to assimilate and be white, just as Bruce Lee had no trouble fitting in as a Chinese-American. As long as you look like what you are trying to assimilate into, you can probably do it. However, with some hapas, how they look, and how they identify can be different. Furthermore, even then, while at first many people of that ethnicity may not accept you as one of them because of different looks, over time, when your personality shows through, they might be a little more receptive.

Last, there's the Hapas, and other multi-racials, who choose to their multi-ethnicity to break barriers and bring people together. I like to think belong to this movement.


That's a myth, and furthermore setting up a new hapa movement sets up barriers rather than taking them down. I much rather allow each individual of us to be able to freely choose how we identify, rather than having to tell each other how we should identify.

To answer your question, b/c it makes society realize and acknowledge that Hapas have seperate experiences from the ethnic groups from which they descend.

Yes, but the degree of this seperateness can sometimes be very large, and other times very small. Furthermore, you could say the same thing about full blooded Asian-Americans.

Once society realizes this it can no longer marginalize Hapas by telling them how to "act". No individual, no matter what ethnicity, should be expected to "act" their own ethnicity, which is usually the one they most look like, and labeled as eccentric if they don't.

You've already said that it is hapa's duty to act a certain way, furthermore, if someone tells you to act a certain way and you don't like it, don't go home and cry about it, educate them.


Let's study those Hapas in the first wave then...yes, on a case-by-case basis. Let's use their individual experiences as insight to what may be in store for individuals in the second wave.

Okay, well are you going to survey every hapa in the nation then? Or just the ones living in San-Francisco? Or just the ones who respond to your call for the survey? No statistics you take will mean anything unless you survey everyone. And since I identify as Asian on my census form and have an Asian name, you'll most likely skip over me. Furthermore the second wave (meaning that their parents were hapas) is going to have completly different issues from the first, so i don't even think they can expect anything.


But, why do we have to wait until a second wave occurs? I forgot, we need a larger sample size.
Yes, we need a larger sample size with more people who grew up under relatively the same environment (two hapa parents). As it is now, we vary too much so much that each 1gen hapa is too different from another to get any conclusive data on anything. If you can't see that we're so differnt from each other that asking one or a few people to summarize our experience and then coming to a conclusion that we are all like a certain way based on the people you asked is wrong, (and also leading to more generalization about how we should act and feel.) then I really don't think you know what you're talking about.


Perhaps we should've waited for Arabs to be interned before we studied internment due to the need for a larger sample size?



Studying internment is the study of the government violating the constitutional rights of its citizens based on their race. It is a historical precedent that needs to be studied so that it is never repeated, and frankly your analogy is unintelligent and insulting. I'm saying that no study of hapas will ever tell you anything conclucive about them, and it would be wrong to label us all a certain way simply because a textbook says that we are a certain way (however it gathered its data.) It is because of this difference and incongruency among our experiences (and in that we have no familial connectivity to each other whatsoever) that the hapa experience is non-collective and individual, meaning that any attempt to collectively study our experience is rather moot. It's an entirely different issue from internment altogether, and suggesting that I should be against the study of internment because I don't think we need to study the hapa experience will only sway the passions of the unintelligent and the illogical.

[Filiprish]

BTR, you're missing the point. Why do you think I have this undying desire to pigeonhole Hapas as a group?

[BeTheReds]

BTR, you're missing the point. Why do you think I have this undying desire to pigeonhole Hapas as a group?


I've never said that I think you want to pigeonhole people into anything. I respect your intentions, but I think you're missing the big picture. Don't you think as an individual issue, different individual outcomes should be tolerated? Shouldn't we all be free to choose how we identify? If so, there will be little or no solidarity among us, and any class that studies hapas will be studying either the most together segment of us, or the most available to whoever is writing the study materials. Neither of which will clearly represent hapas to the nonhapas taking our classes, and generalizations will be made based on this.

[Filiprish]

I've never said that I think you want to pigeonhole people into anything. I respect your intentions, but I think you're missing the big picture. Don't you think as an individual issue, different individual outcomes should be tolerated? Shouldn't we all be free to choose how we identify?
Yes to both of the latter questions.

If so, there will be little or no solidarity among us, and any class that studies hapas will be studying either the most together segment of us, or the most available to whoever is writing the study materials. Neither of which will clearly represent hapas to the nonhapas taking our classes, and generalizations will be made based on this.
How do you know this? Cynic?

[Filiprish]

Continued...

It all depends on who's doing the research and how much money is backing it. You said so yourself that hapas are extremely diverse, though. Therefore, there should be no large segment. I don't see what the problem is with this, anyways, b/c generalisations should always be approached with a grain of salt. It's seems as if you want there to be a large segment. Do you?

[BeTheReds]

This has the potential to be a good discussion topic as well...

[rice cracker]

I acknowledge the truth in that, but I think that honestly you can't study mixed people as a group until the day that the 2nd generation of mixed people (meaning with 2 mixed parents) outnumbers the first. Otherwise it's an individual case by case study, and the sample size isn't going to be large enough to get anything out of such a study.

Furthermore, the people who would take this class voluntarily probably aren't the people who really need to take diversity classes.

Why can't mixed people be studied until the 2nd gen outnumbers the first? Why do their parents have to be mixed? Those really seem like arbitrary rules.

I also don't see anything wrong with a case by case study. It's bound to be educational no matter if you have a sample size of 200 or 2,000.

And nobody ever died from taking a diversity class. What about Eurasians who grew up in mostly white areas? Half black people who grew up in mostly black areas? Aren't these some of the most common scenarios?

[SunWuKong]

another thing is, there may not be enough material to have an entire department devoted to "Hapa Studies", but i think there's probably enough for at least a course or two, because there are classes for all kinds of subjects. my school one summer let this English grad student teach a course on Disney. and then a History grad student friend of mine taught a course on the history of video games.

[BeTheReds]

Well, at the time, I was thinking that it might be harmful to publish texts and have classes on hapaness because non-hapas would learn from a few isolated cases that this is how all hapas are. I could find 5 hapas who agree with me on something and present it to the world as the definitive hapa experience and they would buy it. I think the only way it could be taught now is if the central theme is that for identity anyway, hapa is mostly an individual thing.

[rice cracker]

I agree on the individual thing. It's gotta start somewhere.

[SunWuKong]

Well, at the time, I was thinking that it might be harmful to publish texts and have classes on hapaness because non-hapas would learn from a few isolated cases that this is how all hapas are. I could find 5 hapas who agree with me on something and present it to the world as the definitive hapa experience and they would buy it. I think the only way it could be taught now is if the central theme is that for identity anyway, hapa is mostly an individual thing.

maybe you're thinking about it too narrowly. there's nothing that says that a course on "Hapa Studies" can't emphasize how hapas can't be easily pigeon-holed and come from a wide variety of opinions and demographics. and there's nothing that says that such a course can't concentrate on specific demographics of hapas, like for example, the Amerasians that were born during the Vietnam War, or the mixed children of Chinese fathers in the 1800s when Chinese women in the US were extremely rare, or hapas of Asian and black descent, etc etc.

i mean, hapas don't exactly own the monopoly on discordant individuality. monoracial Asian Americans (as well as blacks and Latinos) come from a wide variety of demographics, and yet they still managed to devote entire departments to Asian American identity and history.

[BeTheReds]

i mean, hapas don't exactly own the monopoly on discordant individuality. monoracial Asian Americans (as well as blacks and Latinos) come from a wide variety of demographics, and yet they still managed to devote entire departments to Asian American identity and history.

Yes, they do this by dividing into seperate ethnicities and having seperate classes for each one, or focusing on social issues involving Asians through history.

With hapas, there isn't any clear dividing line to divide everything so it fits neatly into 6 seperate classes. I'm all for there to be a hapa studies project, as long as it can be done the right way.

[SunWuKong]

With hapas, there isn't any clear dividing line to divide everything so it fits neatly into 6 seperate classes. I'm all for there to be a hapa studies project, as long as it can be done the right way.

in other words you don't want them to harp on about being the "Best of Both Worlds", right? :tongue:

would you take a class on hapa studies called "Worst of Both Worlds" and that examines exactly that?

[BeTheReds]

in other words you don't want them to harp on about being the "Best of Both Worlds", right? :tongue:

would you take a class on hapa studies called "Worst of Both Worlds" and that examines exactly that?


No, because I don' think it's the worst either.

[Filiprish]

In the next 25 years, courses in Hapa Studies will probably gain more offerings and at more campuses. However, it won't become department worthy. Instead it'll be a set of courses within an Ethnic / Mixed Heritage Studies or similiar department. But it's always nice to dream. If anything U of Hawai'i will pull through!

[yuuteya]

i dont agree with institutionalization of something inherently flexible. it just invents a new rigid category that is unnecessary. then that invented category becomes a hegemony and its targeted people are made to conform to a set of fabricated rules made by the authority in that new category. that creates insider and outside. i prefer ambivalence.

[BeTheReds]

i dont agree with institutionalization of something inherently flexible. it just invents a new rigid category that is unnecessary. then that invented category becomes a hegemony and its targeted people are made to conform to a set of fabricated rules made by the authority in that new category. that creates insider and outside. i prefer ambivalence.

I agree. I wouldn't want anyone to make assumptions about me based on something they learned in class. Given that the majority of people who opt to take the class would probably be hapas themselves though, it might be possible that a good number of them would be intelligent enough not to see it as a set of rules for how hapas should be and act. Non hapas on the otherhand I am afraid would come out thinking they are frikin experts on the matter and apply what they have learned in numerous annoying situations.

[Filiprish]

Non hapas on the otherhand I am afraid would come out thinking they are frikin experts on the matter and apply what they have learned in numerous annoying situations.
Well, considering these courses will most likely be offered in a place where there's already Hapas, they aren't going to learn too much. However, I imagine these would be best suited for the seminar format. Seminars rely heavily on class discussion and is shaped to the interests of the class's students - not too much telling of what will be discussed. So, the difference of friends getting together to discuss and the such a class isn't too great. I'm confused on where you stand. You are interested in Hapa Studies? Regardless, what positives do you forsee?

[BeTheReds]

No, I personally am not interested in Hapa studies. Positives I see that can come from it would be more recognition that we have some needs that get left out in practically every diversity minded initiative, and also to make people more aware that there is a significant multiracial population that isn't mullato.

[Hapa Guru]

I don't know why U of Hawai'i at Manoa isn't pioneering Hapa Studies, considering Hawai'i is 22% Hapa. UH just has an broad Ethnic Studies program, not even Asian Studies either.



Last I looked, ~20.5% of people in Hawaii (maybe it's 22% now) identified themselves as being "of two or more races".

However, the Hapa Haole population which is typically thought of as "Hapa" when you're actually in Hawaii (not so much as say 1/2 Chinese + 1/2 Korean or 1/2 Japanese + 1/2 Filipino) is around 10% of the population- including Asian/White, Polynesian/White, and Asian/Polynesian/White mix.:redface:

[najjia]

As you know, there's more than one Hapa movement, all of which require mentioning. I'm witnessing four seperate ones. First, I see there's the EA Hapa movement which consists of individuals who are adament that they are superior simply due to the fact that the ethnic groups from which they are derived are the most dominant on the global front, regardless of how hot or not they are, and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Second, there's the Hapas, of any mix, who think they're superior and exotic simply b/c they're biracial, and and want to form an ethnicity that's bonded by that. Btw, both of the latter I have little love for. Third, there's the Hapas who value one of their ethnicities over one or more and attempt to assimmilate with that favored group yet never completely feel like they fit in, and never will. Last, there's the Hapas, and other multi-racials, who choose to their multi-ethnicity to break barriers and bring people together. I like to think belong to this movement.




wow dude. that was amazing. i fully agree with most if ur points. especially this quote---->" there's the Hapas who value one of their ethnicities over one or more and attempt to assimmilate with that favored group yet never completely feel like they fit in, and never will."




even if both my rents are filo, people STILL do not completely accept me as full filipino. they call me "bumbay" and all sorts of derogetory words and my dad isnt even full indian... he's half. it totally hurts my feelings cuz i speak tagalog very fluently, know my country's history, and my sensibilities are very filipina.


but i think for me, its SO worth it. there is so much color, flavor, and vibrancy in asian culture that it REALLY is worth dying for.

for me at least, anyway.

[Hapa Guru]

wow dude. that was amazing. i fully agree with most if ur points. especially this quote---->" there's the Hapas who value one of their ethnicities over one or more and attempt to assimmilate with that favored group yet never completely feel like they fit in, and never will."

Yeah well, I do tend to prefer hapa chicks (most any mix) over most any Chinese girl anyday of the week.:rolleyes:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

^ And that comment is just one of the many reasons why some people don't think that there really needs to be a Hapa Studies program yet. "Dude we should totally have our own department! The chicks are sooo hot! ^_^" Heck, it's also the same reason why some people don't think that a class devoted entirely to Asian Americans is necessary given the differences between ethnic groups regardless of shared discrimination....because there's this idea that a lot (not all) of Asian Americans and hapas are just looking for something to attach themselves to based on something as superficial as appearance so they can get together and talk about how special or oppressed they are and drink boba tea and race their souped up shitty cars all day.

[Hapa Guru]

Napoleon, are you a hot hapa girl? At least here in Hawaii it's all good and not as you describe. None of that stupid shit here. It's all hapa bootay!

[rice cracker]

Hapa Guru, keep it in your pants. Also, this is not a hapa dating site. Keep that in mind because I'm close to getting really excited about deleting your posts.

[eurasiacan285]

i dont agree with institutionalization of something inherently flexible. it just invents a new rigid category that is unnecessary. then that invented category becomes a hegemony and its targeted people are made to conform to a set of fabricated rules made by the authority in that new category. that creates insider and outside. i prefer ambivalence.

You could say that about anything. In part something like "Hapa Studies" only *seems* "inherently flexible" because it *hasn't* been "institutionalized" (or formally conceptualized, to put it less perjoratively).

[eurasiacan285]

Last I looked, ~20.5% of people in Hawaii (maybe it's 22% now) identified themselves as being "of two or more races".

However, the Hapa Haole population which is typically thought of as "Hapa" when you're actually in Hawaii (not so much as say 1/2 Chinese + 1/2 Korean or 1/2 Japanese + 1/2 Filipino) is around 10% of the population- including Asian/White, Polynesian/White, and Asian/Polynesian/White mix.:redface:

Well it wouldn't have to be reserved just for hapas in Hawaii, it could be a center for studies of Mixed Asian peoples in the entire U.S., all of North America, or even the world.

In any case the population of African-Americans and Latino-Americans in the U.S. is only slightly more than 10% in each case--yet you don't see a dearth of courses and departments devoted to them.

[eurasiacan285]

would it take on more scope if "Hapa Studies" also examined people of mixed heritage around the world instead of being so concentrated on Asian Americans that are mixed? in my opinion, it would be kind of negligent to not study communities like the Peranakans and the Macanese (athough an extremely small group of people), and other similar communities.

Yes, and this would also move it beyond the "But it only applies to 10% of the people in Hawaii"-type argument.

[eurasiacan285]

another thing is, there may not be enough material to have an entire department devoted to "Hapa Studies", but i think there's probably enough for at least a course or two, because there are classes for all kinds of subjects. my school one summer let this English grad student teach a course on Disney. and then a History grad student friend of mine taught a course on the history of video games.

You might be misunderstanding the mission of universities; they do not simply exist to teach skills to students, they are there (almost exclusively at the graduate level) for the purpose of *creating* knowledge.

In other words, if you create the department, there will *be* enough material.

[eurasiacan285]

Not much to study.

Wrong.

Hapa is an individual thing right now.

That's in part because there *is* no formal conceptualization of it; everybody thinks that their experience(s) (which are obviously unique in many ways, but usually have commonalities with others) is strictly "individual" to them.

In other words, people often don't realize how their personal experiences are part of a larger context because that context has never been made explicit to them.

[eurasiacan285]

Lets PM about this one...

You've proven nothing other than that each hapa identifies himself or herself uniquely. There isn't enough solidarity among hapas to form a "community" that's worth studying. Look at your post again and subtract every sentence that has "me" or "I" in it. Makes your post a lot smaller doesn't it? Hapas who consider themselves something different than the races of either of their parents have nothing to talk about other than themselves thus there isn't anything to study because there isn't a community with A) a common history, B) a common bloodline (i.e. extended family of the same race) or C) a common ancestral land that required adjustment from upon arrival to the USA. What really more can you study other than people talking about themselves? Is that anything to study? Just meet together and talk!

Every *person* hapa or non-hapa in the world identifies him- or herself uniquely. It doesn't mean meaningful generalizations can't be drawn about them.

Both African-Americans and Latino-Americans will tell you that the notion of a unified "community" which defines each and every one of them is a(n almost complete) myth.

[eurasiacan285]

Maybe I didn't see this elsewhere, but:

How about starting with a major/minor in Hapa Studies?

The discussion seems to be (overly?) focused on creating a Hapa Studies Department separate from or subordinate to Ethnic Studies, why not start by creating a Hapa Studies concentration *within* Ethnic Studies?

[SunWuKong]

You might be misunderstanding the mission of universities; they do not simply exist to teach skills to students, they are there (almost exclusively at the graduate level) for the purpose of *creating* knowledge.

In other words, if you create the department, there will *be* enough material.

ok, but if there's not enough pre-existing materials to teach students, you're basically creating a research institute, not an academic department.

[BeTheReds]

I wonder if we could use the discussion in this thread to make some sort of dissertation on the matter.

Unfortunately that would mean some of our more vocal participants seen as "the hapa view" but I think if we dig around the hapa forum, some jewels worthy of study can be found.

[eurasiacan285]

ok, but if there's not enough pre-existing materials to teach students, you're basically creating a research institute, not an academic department.

Call it whatever you like, academic fields of inquiry have to start somewhere. Teaching and researching co-exist all the time, the latter may need to precede the former in some cases but this is not a significant issue.

[BeTheReds]

Wow... a 2 year gap between current and last post!

Do you still think there is enough to study about that can be actually taught as a major?

[eurasiacan285]

Perhaps "emerging" communities don't get studies? But if I see the emerging furry population getting a class before the mixed race community, then I'll be pissed.

Maybe emerging communities don't "get" studies because in many ways they have to work to *create* them themselves?

[BeTheReds]

Good point, but I wouldn't even classify eurasians as an emerging community.

[eurasiacan285]

Good point, but I wouldn't even classify eurasians as an emerging community.

I don't know if you're just referring to the situation in (South) Korea, and I know what you mean in general, but I would say that hapas in North America, and certainly multiracial people there in general, constitute a kind of emerging community, even if it's somewhat virtual or existential at this point.

And even if they (we) don't constitute an emerging community yet, when there are enough people and interest in exploring things from this perspective (which I think will happen when the current generation of kids reaches college-age) that can create a community itself (do you even absolutely *have* to constitute a "community" to have your interests represented? Maybe not.)

[BeTheReds]

I'm not talking about South Korea. I was talking about the U.S. I'll agree that the number of hapas is increasing, but I won't ever agree that we can constitute a community because we have no natural connectivity to each other.

Hapas are no more a community than are Star Trek fans. They come together online specifically to talk about common interest. Until the day that hapas with hapa parents outnumber hapas with monoracial parents, I don't think there will ever be a hapa community in the US.

That said, no, you don't need a community to have your interests represented, but your interests aren't my interests. So what you might want for hapadom isn't necesarily what the majority of hapadom wants.

Good luck to you, but I can't be bothered to get off my ass to help the "emerging hapa community" because I don't really care about it in the context of a community seperate from Asian-Americans...

[eurasiacan285]

I'm not talking about South Korea. I was talking about the U.S. I'll agree that the number of hapas is increasing, but I won't ever agree that we can constitute a community because we have no natural connectivity to each other.

Hapas are no more a community than are Star Trek fans. They come together online specifically to talk about common interest. Until the day that hapas with hapa parents outnumber hapas with monoracial parents, I don't think there will ever be a hapa community in the US.

That said, no, you don't need a community to have your interests represented, but your interests aren't my interests. So what you might want for hapadom isn't necesarily what the majority of hapadom wants.

Good luck to you, but I can't be bothered to get off my ass to help the "emerging hapa community" because I don't really care about it in the context of a community seperate from Asian-Americans...

I'm not sure why you think you know what "the majority of hapadom wants", or why a community can only exist when everyone wants the same thing.

If you don't care at all then you should get out of the way of people who do.

[BeTheReds]

I'm not sure why you think you know what "the majority of hapadom wants", or why a community can only exist when everyone wants the same thing.

If you don't care at all then you should get out of the way of people who do.

I don't know what hapadom wants, and neither do you.

I'm really not in your way, but what I am most concerned about is that whatever kind of experience you label in ur mixed asian studies class as the mixed asian experience will be seen by outsiders as the end all and be all about mixed asians, thus assuming they know about my experiences because they studied something somewhere.

It's like people who read Joy Luck Club and suddenly think they know what it's like to be a Chinese immigrant.

[eurasiacan285]

I don't know what hapadom wants, and neither do you.

I'm really not in your way, but what I am most concerned about is that whatever kind of experience you label in ur mixed asian studies class as the mixed asian experience will be seen by outsiders as the end all and be all about mixed asians, thus assuming they know about my experiences because they studied something somewhere.

It's like people who read Joy Luck Club and suddenly think they know what it's like to be a Chinese immigrant.

So you don't support mixed asian studies because you're afraid of how "outsiders" *might* interpret it? That's a *terrible* reason.

[deez nuts]

I would sign up for a hapa studies class!

[BeTheReds]

So you don't support mixed asian studies because you're afraid of how "outsiders" *might* interpret it? That's a *terrible* reason.
Fair enough. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I'm not really opposed to it per say, I just think that there's A) not much to study.. B)whatever is studied isn't representative of the group, and C) people will think they are the expert on my identity and how I should feel based upon it.

If you want to make it, go for it, I won't stop you.

[Sunflare]

Personally from hearing the recent comments I think the both of you eurasiacan285 and BetheReds share good points.

I like the idea of a Hapa studies program, but I don't think now is the time yet. There just isn't enough substance for a hapa studies program to be created. I think that it would be better to perhaps include issues pertaining to mixed Asians in the current asian American studies programs that exists in the nations schools and colleges.

I mean what is there to talk about ? Hapa and Blasian celebrities ? I can only think of two of the more once prominent APA empowerment activists who are hapas and I can only remember the names of one of them. Prominent hapa professionals, politicians and others who has made a major impact on the global community ? Honestly too few, simply because we havent even grown into a sizable population to be even considered a minority group apart from the monoracial groups that exist today.

Furthermore, at least at this point, there is too much problems concerning this society's misconceptions of the individual hapa experience because of ignorant and preconcieved notions on race in general. I'm afraid that at this point if a hapa studies program is to be created, it will only present a very distorted and biased view of the hapa experience. Look at what is happening now with other such sociological subjects taught at the schools and universities concerning the monoracial experience such as with what is taught in asian American studies, Afro-American studies and so forth. The other ethnic study programs that exist in the nation's schools are riddled with flaws as it is, until very recently.

So ho much less could we expect a hapa studies program to really work ? We unfortunately don't share any common ground because of the conflicting aspects of the experiences and POVs each individual hapa has.

However....

The hapa population is continuing to rise. Off the top of my head I think the current U.S census figures suggests that in the next decade or so the hapa population will make up 20% of the total APA population, prodominantly Eurasian with a Afro-Asian minority given if the current dating trends continue as is with a large dating disparity with IRs. ( and who knows if that can change and the IR trends may even out and become more balanced between the different sorts of IRs within the APA population anyway ? )

So perhaps in the future then, in the many years to come, a hapa studies program can be seriously considered as a tool to give the public a better awareness of the hapa experience.

[BeTheReds]

Personally from hearing the recent comments I think the both of you eurasiacan285 and BetheReds share good points.

I like the idea of a Hapa studies program, but I don't think now is the time yet. There just isn't enough substance for a hapa studies program to be created. I think that it would be better to perhaps include issues pertaining to mixed Asians in the current asian American studies programs that exists in the nations schools and colleges.

Now there is a constructive idea! Who would have ever thought that mixed-Asians could be part of an Asian-American community?

Seriously, I don't know why anyone hasn't suggested this in the first place? Add it on to an Asian-American studies project. It makes perfect sense!

[Sunflare]

Seriously, I don't know why anyone hasn't suggested this in the first place? Add it on to an Asian-American studies project. It makes perfect sense!

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[BeTheReds]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

The major problem is that most of the people who want "hapa studies" want to explore being a mixed asian without having to be in the context of Asian-America. As in, something seperate.

I don't imagine that proponents of hapa studies would like instead to be an afterthought in biracial studies, where ultimately the bulk of study will be 1/2black and 1/2 white people.


The hapa population is continuing to rise. Off the top of my head I think the current U.S census figures suggests that in the next decade or so the hapa population will make up 20% of the total APA population,

And 20% of 3% is.... well really small I bet. HAHA (0.6%)

So... that means we want every university in the US to set up some kind of major that is to study less than 1% of our nation's population, each of which have no reason to be any more or less like each oher because they aren't connected in any logical way.

Why don't we have albino studies? What about left arm amputee studies? How about handlebar mustache enthusiast studies?

[AngryABCGirl]

What about a general mixed race studies, not so much focusing on individual demographic groups, but history and psychology, etc.?

[Sunflare]

The major problem is that most of the people who want "hapa studies" want to explore being a mixed asian without having to be in the context of Asian-America. As in, something seperate.

True.

I don't imagine that proponents of hapa studies would like instead to be an afterthought in biracial studies, where ultimately the bulk of study will be 1/2black and 1/2 white people.

Exactly why I'm would rather see the hapa's perspective taught as part of a Asian heritage studies program. A seperate hapa studies program just wont work. Period. It will not accurately depict the different views hapas have. Not in our lifetimes.

[AngryABCGirl]

Exactly why I'm would rather see the hapa's perspective taught as part of a Asian heritage studies program. A seperate hapa studies program just wont work. Period. It will not accurately depict the different views hapas have. Not in our lifetimes.

That's probably why its taught that way now.

[BeTheReds]

That's probably why its taught that way now.

It is? Damn, there's your answer then original poster! Where the @#$% is hapa studies? Ask Angry ABC!!

[eurasiacan285]

Fair enough. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I'm not really opposed to it per say, I just think that there's A) not much to study.. B)whatever is studied isn't representative of the group, and C) people will think they are the expert on my identity and how I should feel based upon it.

If you want to make it, go for it, I won't stop you.

What I'm trying to say is: 1) while there may not be that much to study *yet*, there's always more material out there than you realize, often it's a question of what you look for and what you consider worth studying (maybe not enough to create full-fledged departments of Hapa Studies overnight but enough to get started, with at least a potential major in that field in the not-so-distant future, and 2) if you don't develop yourself other people already *do* think they're experts on you, and it's usually not very accurate or complimentary—so you might as well go for it.

What about a general mixed race studies, not so much focusing on individual demographic groups, but history and psychology, etc.?

I think that wouldn't be a bad idea, but it might be too general (as opposed to Hapa Studies being too "specific"). I think the idea of Hapa Studies subsumed under Asian-American Studies is a fine one, as long as it doesn't get treated like a red-headed stepchild. (Having said that the same would be true for a general mixed-race major within Ethnic Studies IMO, as opposed to no progress being made in this direction whatsoever, as long as the same deal was the case—not playing second-fiddle to material[s] on in this case African-American European-American issues.)

The major problem is that most of the people who want "hapa studies" want to explore being a mixed asian without having to be in the context of Asian-America. As in, something seperate.

I don't imagine that proponents of hapa studies would like instead to be an afterthought in biracial studies, where ultimately the bulk of study will be 1/2black and 1/2 white people.



And 20% of 3% is.... well really small I bet. HAHA (0.6%)

So... that means we want every university in the US to set up some kind of major that is to study less than 1% of our nation's population, each of which have no reason to be any more or less like each oher because they aren't connected in any logical way.

Why don't we have albino studies? What about left arm amputee studies? How about handlebar mustache enthusiast studies?

Why not? Why does "every university in the U.S." have to do something similar? And so what if they're not all "connected in a logical way"?

Having some/more academic options to study the mixed-race Asian experience is far more important than sitting around trying to figure out exactly which department it should be classified under.

[BeTheReds]

if you don't develop yourself other people already *do* think they're experts on you, and it's usually not very accurate or complimentary—so you might as well go for it.

Exactly, so why would I want some kind of course that would give people more reason not to believe me when I say how I define myself? If they do it already, then they don't need more reason to do it.

If you really want it, get your PHD and start teaching.. You seem pretty committed!

[eurasiacan285]

Exactly, so why would I want some kind of course that would give people more reason not to believe me when I say how I define myself? If they do it already, then they don't need more reason to do it.

If you really want it, get your PHD and start teaching.. You seem pretty committed!

You're still giving away your power to "other people". The point is, it doesn't matter what they may or may not think of you, what matters is how you think of yourself and how well-developed you are.

[Sunflare]

The point is, it doesn't matter what they may or may not think of you, what matters is how you think of yourself and how well-developed you are.

Right. And what WE are saying, myself, BeTheReds, and others, is that we DO NOT need to be compartmentalized into a group separate from Asian-Americans. A separate mixed Asian studies program will help to encourage that, and that is not good. Isn’t that what persons influenced by racist ideology in America promotes and wishes to encourage? Segregation by race and ethnic groups ? Why should we give these department heads in our schools the opportunity into their hands the power to promote this sort of segregaion by screaming out for a Hapa studies program that will do nothing more at this point in time but further divide all of us from our Asian American heritage that we ALL share ?

As you said: "it doesn't matter what they may or may not think of you, what matters is how you think of yourself and how well-developed you are." Well stated, but I think a hapa's individual perspective on his or her identity comes into play here too doesn’t it?

All the hapas here at YW, more or less, share the common perspective of identifying ourselves as Asian-Americans , rather than just simply half Anglo/European-American or half Afro-American half breeds. That is the general attitude all the mixed Asians have here in this Asian-American empowerment forum.

My stance is this: That the Hapa Experience should remain as a subject taught in the Asian American studies programs in the schools and colleges across the nation...... at least for now, until the future generations of mixed Asian Americans come about with their concerns, aspirations, and anguish over their hapa identity.

[BeTheReds]

You're still giving away your power to "other people". The point is, it doesn't matter what they may or may not think of you, what matters is how you think of yourself and how well-developed you are.

I don't "give my power" to anyone. And furthermore what does that retort do to show that we need a hapa studies course?

[eurasiacan285]

I don't "give my power" to anyone. And furthermore what does that retort do to show that we need a hapa studies course?

It doesn't. It's just my opinion that whether one supports independent hapa studies, or hapa courses within the context of Asian-American or general mixed-race studies, it shouldn't be based on how non-hapas may react to it.

Right. And what WE are saying, myself, BeTheReds, and others, is that we DO NOT need to be compartmentalized into a group separate from Asian-Americans. A separate mixed Asian studies program will help to encourage that, and that is not good. Isn’t that what persons influenced by racist ideology in America promotes and wishes to encourage? Segregation by race and ethnic groups ? Why should we give these department heads in our schools the opportunity into their hands the power to promote this sort of segregaion by screaming out for a Hapa studies program that will do nothing more at this point in time but further divide all of us from our Asian American heritage that we ALL share ?

At least in terms of this thread it seems that what "BeTheReds" is (mainly) saying is that Hapa Studies should not be a free-standing department because of how it might influence how non-hapas view us.

Also, I wouldn't so concerned with not recreating segregationist practices for the purpose of self-empowerment because of how it parallels the mainstream misuse of that practice. Affiliating with your own "kind" (however you define that) for support and solidarity is *not* the same as banding together to beat down other groups.

As you said: "it doesn't matter what they may or may not think of you, what matters is how you think of yourself and how well-developed you are." Well stated, but I think a hapa's individual perspective on his or her identity comes into play here too doesn’t it?

Of course it does—when did I say otherwise? You and BTR seem to share an underlying assumption that if Hapa Studies existed it would manufacture a single monolithic definition of hapaness that would be forced down the throats of anyone who took a class in it.

All the hapas here at YW, more or less, share the common perspective of identifying ourselves as Asian-Americans , rather than just simply half Anglo/European-American or half Afro-American half breeds. That is the general attitude all the mixed Asians have here in this Asian-American empowerment forum.

That's fine but as you stated above an individual hapa's perspective has a role to play as well (regardless of whether it conforms to the "general attitude"). I for one was not speaking only in terms of hapas who patronize this website.

My stance is this: That the Hapa Experience should remain as a subject taught in the Asian American studies programs in the schools and colleges across the nation...... at least for now, until the future generations of mixed Asian Americans come about with their concerns, aspirations, and anguish over their hapa identity.

That's fine too. I don't think I ever said that was a bad idea. Nor do I believe I ever argued for the immediate creation of independent departments of Hapa Studies as the only acceptable path to pursue. If you reread the thread I believe I've only responded to what I thought were poor reasons for being *against* that position. I think having hapa-related courses within the context of As-Am Studies as well as within general-mixed race studies within Ethnic Studies is the way to go for now, with some kind of customized major being possible in the near future and some kind of dedicated Hapa Studies further down the road.

[BeTheReds]

You've got me all wrong. That's the biggest reason for me personally to not want it. However I think there are plenty of other reasons for that as well. If you read the thread through, you'll see a lot of them, but I'll list it again.

1. There isn't anything to study other than individual cases.
2. What is taught in class will be seen by outsiders (AND) insiders as THE hapa experience, lending oneself to more generalizations.
3. More fodder to suggest that Hapas are not part of Asian-America.
4. Possibility of classes becoming the same thing as every other hapa organized gathering, a bunch of losers lamenting that nobody understands them.

Reasons for?
1. Some hapas want it.
2. Possibility of classes becoming the same thing as every other hapa organized gathering, a bunch of losers lamenting that nobody understands them.

[Sunflare]

It's understandable that eurasiancan285 is expressing his opposing views on this subject since he is more inclined to identify with his Anglo/European heritage rather than his Asian-American heritage that makes up his dual ethnicity. Perhaps he can correct me if I'm wrong.

That is why he is seeing things the way he sees it. Hey to each his own. I just don't see the point of having a hapa studies program. Point blank, I think it's stupid.

[BeTheReds]

Point blank, I think it's stupid.

At least right now anyway...

[eurasiacan285]

You've got me all wrong. That's the biggest reason for me personally to not want it. However I think there are plenty of other reasons for that as well. If you read the thread through, you'll see a lot of them, but I'll list it again.

1. There isn't anything to study other than individual cases.

I already addressed this question, in this thread.

2. What is taught in class will be seen by outsiders (AND) insiders as THE hapa experience, lending oneself to more generalizations.

Ditto—but now you're also worried about insiders? (Wouldn't those be hapas themselves?) And you still haven't explained why it would automatically create a monolithic paradigm rather than be open to different hapa perspectives.

3. More fodder to suggest that Hapas are not part of Asian-America.

Well insofar as they're not I don't see what's wrong with that. Having said that I don't propose, and wouldn't support, Hapa Studies which were completely divorced from Asian America. I think that would be short-sighted and counterproductive.

4. Possibility of classes becoming the same thing as every other hapa organized gathering, a bunch of losers lamenting that nobody understands them.

Maybe that's your experience but it's not mine.

Reasons for?
1. Some hapas want it.
2. Possibility of classes becoming the same thing as every other hapa organized gathering, a bunch of losers lamenting that nobody understands them.

[BeTheReds]

I already addressed this question, in this thread.

You certainly attempted to. The fact remains though that as there is no community. Therefore there's no community to study. You can say there's no need to study a community, that individual cases are worthy of study, but then who gets studied? Who chooses who to study? What types of materials get to be gathered for study? Who is in charge of all of this?


Ditto—but now you're also worried about insiders? (Wouldn't those be hapas themselves?) And you still haven't explained why it would automatically create a monolithic paradigm rather than be open to different hapa perspectives.

As there isn't yet a community, by default, there are no "insiders". Hapas themselves are entitled to identify however they want to for themselves. As for forming opinions on how other hapas should feel, the hapa class could shape them into thinking that their way is right for everyone, or whatever way the class ends up teaching them is right. I'm worried about people telling me who I am and how I should think based on their own judgements, and this includes hapas themselves. A hapa class will encourage this behaviour.


Well insofar as they're not I don't see what's wrong with that. Having said that I don't propose, and wouldn't support, Hapa Studies which were completely divorced from Asian America. I think that would be short-sighted and counterproductive.


Herein lies the problem. When hapas themselves say that they aren't part of Asian-America, that only gives full blooded Asians more justification to exclude those hapas who wish to be a part of it.


Maybe that's your experience but it's not mine.

Really? Have you ever been to an organized hapa group where people don't talk about themselves and how they feel unwelcome by the world?

[eurasiacan285]

You certainly attempted to. The fact remains though that as there is no community. Therefore there's no community to study. You can say there's no need to study a community, that individual cases are worthy of study, but then who gets studied? Who chooses who to study? What types of materials get to be gathered for study? Who is in charge of all of this?

We could study whichever individuals we choose to, in whatever fashion we wanted to. These are all valid questions but just because the perfect answer can't be found *right now* doesn't mean one shouldn't move forward.

As there isn't yet a community, by default, there are no "insiders". Hapas themselves are entitled to identify however they want to for themselves. As for forming opinions on how other hapas should feel, the hapa class could shape them into thinking that their way is right for everyone, or whatever way the class ends up teaching them is right. I'm worried about people telling me who I am and how I should think based on their own judgements, and this includes hapas themselves. A hapa class will encourage this behaviour.

You're the one that introduced the concept of insiders, not me. Nor have you shown why hapa studies would *inevitably* lead to a monolithic and oppressive definition of hapa-ness. Of course it *could* lead to that, as you stated, but not to move forward for that reason seems to me as short-sighted as not doing it because you're afraid of how others might react.

Herein lies the problem. When hapas themselves say that they aren't part of Asian-America, that only gives full blooded Asians more justification to exclude those hapas who wish to be a part of it.

This is just another manifestation of being too concerned with others' reactions—you need to get over it.

Really? Have you ever been to an organized hapa group where people don't talk about themselves and how they feel unwelcome by the world?

Yes, at H.I.F. (Hapa Issues Forum) events in San Francisco when I lived on the West Coast. Of course alienation was a topic, as well it should be, but there were many other things as well. Unfortunately I think that organization has since disbanded.

BTW, before you work yourself into any more of a lather, keep in mind I've never stated that Hapa Studies was the end-all be-all, only acceptable goal for mixed-race Asians. It's not realistic in the short-term, and maybe not even in the long-term, and there are many other worthwhile things which can be done in the meantime in departments of both Asian-American Studies and Ethnic Studies, among others. It's merely what seems to me to be the reflexive rejection of it right now, and especially the reasons given for that stance, that have been the target of my criticisms.

[BeTheReds]

We could study whichever individuals we choose to, in whatever fashion we wanted to. These are all valid questions but just because the perfect answer can't be found *right now* doesn't mean one shouldn't move forward.


Look before you leap.


You're the one that introduced the concept of insiders, not me.
Bad wording on my part. If anything I meant "insiders" though I may not have had it in quotes at first. Nor have you shown why hapa studies would *inevitably* lead to a monolithic and oppressive definition of hapa-ness. Well I think I have. By highlighting the point that hapas are far less cohesive than other communities that have ethnic studies, (i.e ones which go through a shared history, cultural background, similar looks, etc.. in, and/or out of the US as more or less a cohesive group) I've been attempting to show that the threat of monolithic generalization is far greater for hapas than it is for these other groups of people.

Of course it *could* lead to that, as you stated, but not to move forward for that reason seems to me as short-sighted as not doing it because you're afraid of how others might react.


Those two are the same reason. And yes, that's one reason (but not the only reason, see above) that I don't want to move forward with it.


This is just another manifestation of being too concerned with others' reactions—you need to get over it.


What is the point of "hapa studies" other than to shape the reactions of others? What is there to learn about hapas collectively? The only thing I can think of is that hapas are collectively non collective. The only way I would ever support it is if this is the message and point that is to be driven home.


Yes, at H.I.F. (Hapa Issues Forum) events in San Francisco when I lived on the West Coast. Of course alienation was a topic... okay so no then...

Unfortunately I think that organization has since disbanded.
Yes, after talking about all the whiny identity issues there's not that much less to talk about, is there.

A: Nobody understands me
B: We do! We're Hapa together.
A+B: YAAAY!
A+B: Uh... now what?

Me: LOL


BTW, before you work yourself into any more of a lather, keep in mind I've never stated that Hapa Studies was the end-all be-all, only acceptable goal for mixed-race Asians. It's not realistic in the short-term, and maybe not even in the long-term, and there are many other worthwhile things which can be done in the meantime in departments of both Asian-American Studies and Ethnic Studies, among others. It's merely what seems to me to be the reflexive rejection of it right now, and especially the reasons given for that stance, that have been the target of my criticisms.

Okay fair enough. We don't need to agree. I think my reasons at this point are enough tho to not actively support and encourage it. I've also stated before, that perhaps later when/if we coalesce into a community that it will be high time...

[eurasiacan285]

Look before you leap.


Bad wording on my part. If anything I meant "insiders" though I may not have had it in quotes at first. Well I think I have. By highlighting the point that hapas are far less cohesive than other communities that have ethnic studies, (i.e ones which go through a shared history, cultural background, similar looks, etc.. in, and/or out of the US as more or less a cohesive group) I've been attempting to show that the threat of monolithic generalization is far greater for hapas than it is for these other groups of people.



Those two are the same reason. And yes, that's one reason (but not the only reason, see above) that I don't want to move forward with it.



What is the point of "hapa studies" other than to shape the reactions of others? What is there to learn about hapas collectively? The only thing I can think of is that hapas are collectively non collective. The only way I would ever support it is if this is the message and point that is to be driven home.

okay so no then...

Yes, after talking about all the whiny identity issues there's not that much less to talk about, is there.

A: Nobody understands me
B: We do! We're Hapa together.
A+B: YAAAY!
A+B: Uh... now what?

Me: LOL

Okay fair enough. We don't need to agree. I think my reasons at this point are enough tho to not actively support and encourage it. I've also stated before, that perhaps later when/if we coalesce into a community that it will be high time...

I don't know what to tell you if you really don't think there's any point to self-development apart from trying to influence the perceptions of others.

That and I would suggest not selectively editing my posts if you want to maintain credibility.

[AngryABCGirl]

For the sake of argument, what would hapa studies be?

I know a lot of the scholarship in Asian American Studies in terms of mixed race studies is Amerasians and the children of Korean War Brides rather than on identity.

[BeTheReds]

I don't know what to tell you if you really don't think there's any point to self-development apart from trying to influence the perceptions of others.


Self development? Do you need a class for that? Much less a major...?

Or did you mean self development as in improving yourself through learning? Yea, fine for biology or language or courses not related to ethnic studies, but in the case of ethnic studies classes (i.e. the ones I took) the point was to make people aware of the issues that the community under study faces and how to get politically involved, or highlighting the cultural contributions that members in that group of study have made to U.S. culture.

Yet again, as hapas aren't a cohesive group, neither of the two above areas make any sense at this point. Maybe I didn't take enough ethnic studies classes to know any more than those two possibilities however, so I do admit that perhaps my scope of what can be done is limited.


That and I would suggest not selectively editing my posts if you want to maintain credibility.

I have not been doing that on purpose. My style of argument is such that I reply to you, and when there's a point that you made that I disagree with, I cut the quote there and reply.

[BeTheReds]

For the sake of argument, what would hapa studies be?

I know a lot of the scholarship in Asian American Studies in terms of mixed race studies is Amerasians and the children of Korean War Brides rather than on identity.

I'd like to hear the answer to this too. We've been hearing too much "we need it, we don't need it, yes we do, no we don't".

Even though I have been arguing that it isn't needed, if I had to make this kind of studies program here's what I would do.

On second thought, here is what parameters I would set on it and hope that it would not become.

1. Not the arena to talk about the merits or demerits of interracial dating.
2. Not highlighting celebrities who happen to be hapa unless they are active for some kind of hapa cause.
3. Not any kind of class that has a textbook with absolute information.
4. If case studies are presented, the exact circumstances of each case should be highlighted.
5. The professor should not attempt to instill her viewpoint on the matter in the students, but present as many as possible.
6. None of this "It's scientifically proven that mixed raced individuals are more aesthetically pleasing" stuff.
7. Be more focused on individuals rather than on the group as a collective.
8. If anything is to be taught about a community, teach about a community that actually exists. (Hawaii perhaps...).
9. If anything is to be taught about a collective experience (such as the war babies left behind in Vietnam) emphasis must be placed on this experience is unique to the group that went through it, and why it is wrong to generalize all hapas based on what you have learned about this population that has gone through a collective experience.


I could go on... but I think I'll stop here for now..

[Jason S]

You all have been having quite an interesting conversation.

I think this debate highlights a lot of what's wrong with university departments/disciplines/majors. I think that we end up focusing way too much on collective experiences or shared beliefs or common areas of study or common professional interests/goals. The result, in my opinion, is artificial and strained generalizations and narrowminded thinking. Professors create the world of their discipline in order to keep themselves useful. Students choose some major in order to convince themselves that they are focused and spending their time and money wisely. But the truth is, most of us don't really want to learn this way (by focusing so much on generalizations, historical timelines, common beliefs). This is why most students hate history class.

Be the Reds, I think you're right that any sort of studying of hapas ought to be focused on individual stories, but then again, I think this is true of any people(s) that we study. When we study Americans or Chinese or Chinese-Americans based on what they collectively buy, worship, believe, have been taught, etc., it's dull, though somewhat easy to do. But looking at trends and numbers and incidents by groups of people always oversimplifies in the name of being able to easily say, "Now we know about these people," or in order to be able to evaluate a student's progress.

This is why I think that we should always start with stories. I'm biased, of course, as an English teacher and a writer, but dangit, a well-written novel let's you see a three-dimensional person. A few years ago I read a great essay in The New Yorker by a young black woman talking about she saw herself in Philip Roth's novel Portnoy's Complaint, even though the protagonist in this novel was a sex-obsessed middle-class Jewish man. The book changed her life because she saw herself in that character. Although I'm a Korean-German mutt, I can't name either a Korean or German novel that's among my favorite books. But God do I love the stories of Larry Brown, a beer-swilling good ol boy from Mississippi with whom I share no common experiences or cultural beliefs.

So I think in some ways hapas have a built-in advantage in having interesting and useful conversations: we all know that our experiences are so different from the get go. We aren't bogged down by cultural assumptions. When I meet a hapa I immediately want to know about their life and I find most hapas have had to think harder about what they believe in and why.

But yes, I can understand the argument that Hapa Studies would have a harder time defining itself and figuring out just how to organize itself. At my university we have Recreation Studies as well as a Concrete Management major. You'd have a hard time convincing me that Hapa Studies wouldn't be more interesting and useful than these disciplines (for the grander purpose of learning, of course, not for the practical purpose of getting a job). I do believe that Hapa Studies will probably become a major eventually, in most places, since we here at the university will deliver practically whatever it is that the consumer wants. And as our country becomes more and more inclined to mix, the products of those mixed relationships will want their major too.

[BeTheReds]

You all have been having quite an interesting conversation.



Be the Reds, I think you're right that any sort of studying of hapas ought to be focused on individual stories, but then again, I think this is true of any people(s) that we study. When we study Americans or Chinese or Chinese-Americans based on what they collectively buy, worship, believe, have been taught, etc., it's dull, though somewhat easy to do. But looking at trends and numbers and incidents by groups of people always oversimplifies in the name of being able to easily say, "Now we know about these people," or in order to be able to evaluate a student's progress.

In any kind of ethnic or cultural studies you have to make generalizations though. If we are going to focus on individuals for every kind of study then we might as well decide that race and seperate cultures don't exist. I don't think it is a huge problem to generalize based on collective experience provided that people are intelligent enough to realize that there will be exceptions. As Asian-Americans we generalize ourselves all the time. How many times have you heard someone say "Oh you know how Asian parents are..." There's a reason for that generalization, and it is based upon culture, which is defined by various collective factors.


This is why I think that we should always start with stories. I'm biased, of course, as an English teacher and a writer, but dangit, a well-written novel let's you see a three-dimensional person. A few years ago I read a great essay in The New Yorker by a young black woman talking about she saw herself in Philip Roth's novel Portnoy's Complaint, even though the protagonist in this novel was a sex-obsessed middle-class Jewish man. The book changed her life because she saw herself in that character. Although I'm a Korean-German mutt, I can't name either a Korean or German novel that's among my favorite books. But God do I love the stories of Larry Brown, a beer-swilling good ol boy from Mississippi with whom I share no common experiences or cultural beliefs.


In both examples there is shared experience and culture. Simply because the reader is black and the character is Jewish doesn't mean they don't share culture. (And who knows what race the author is, as that's more relevant, but I digress.) There is a such thing as an American culture that people who are raised in, or spend considerable time in belong to. And in this case, perhaps the Jewishness of the character wasn't what she saw herself in, but the conflict and circumstances that the character was in.

Second example... forgive me if I am assuming too much, but you were raised in the U.S. as a native English speaker right? It makes perfect sense that you would enjoy American novels to Korean or German ones which would lose a lot in translation to English... Furthermore, your locality in the U.S. and use of English as your primarily language would make prominent contemporary novelists from either Germany or Korea slip under the radar.

Third.. do you really have an affinity for Germany or do you say you are German because one of your ancestors came from there in the 1920's? Would it be safe to say that your White parent is more American than German? If so, why use Germany as an example of something that you should feel connection to but don't. If I am assuming to much, then again, I am sorry.

The Korean one, I won't touch because I don't know the circumstances of your life or experience and making huge assumptions on this front could be hurtful. But I have to ask if you were dropped in Korea today, would you be able to function normally with few problems?

It's good talking about this subject for sure, but I fail to see that an individual study would be of any use other than to show that hapas aren't enough like each other to be worthy of study.

And if we want to read stories, we can take literature classes.


So I think in some ways hapas have a built-in advantage in having interesting and useful conversations: we all know that our experiences are so different from the get go. We aren't bogged down by cultural assumptions. When I meet a hapa I immediately want to know about their life and I find most hapas have had to think harder about what they believe in and why.

But yes, I can understand the argument that Hapa Studies would have a harder time defining itself and figuring out just how to organize itself. At my university we have Recreation Studies as well as a Concrete Management major. You'd have a hard time convincing me that Hapa Studies wouldn't be more interesting and useful than these disciplines (for the grander purpose of learning, of course, not for the practical purpose of getting a job). I do believe that Hapa Studies will probably become a major eventually, in most places, since we here at the university will deliver practically whatever it is that the consumer wants. And as our country becomes more and more inclined to mix, the products of those mixed relationships will want their major too.[/QUOTE]

[eurasiacan285]

Self development? Do you need a class for that? Much less a major...?

Or did you mean self development as in improving yourself through learning? Yea, fine for biology or language or courses not related to ethnic studies, but in the case of ethnic studies classes (i.e. the ones I took) the point was to make people aware of the issues that the community under study faces and how to get politically involved, or highlighting the cultural contributions that members in that group of study have made to U.S. culture.

No, not just self-development in terms of learning, self-development in terms of studying course material that actually relates to one's life experiences, and engaging with others who share those interests and concerns (even if the details aren't precisely identical).

Yet again, as hapas aren't a cohesive group, neither of the two above areas make any sense at this point. Maybe I didn't take enough ethnic studies classes to know any more than those two possibilities however, so I do admit that perhaps my scope of what can be done is limited.

I have not been doing that on purpose. My style of argument is such that I reply to you, and when there's a point that you made that I disagree with, I cut the quote there and reply.

Well when you make a criticism and I say "There's some truth to that, but…" and give counterexamples, and you snip off the second part of the sentence and declare yourself vindicated, it looks pretty cheesy.

Re: your other thread about the different criteria you would require to support Hapa Studies I would say you're never going to have an academic field which fits your personal requirements exactly—in fact, a lot of the value could come from debating these topics with others in that environment. Jason S has a good post detailing his perspective on the realities of the academy, I think a lot of what he says makes sense and supports some of what I've been trying to say.

P.S. I'm planning on letting let this thread go. I've stated my position pretty clearly (I think) several times and don't feel like continuing to resend posts about how (I don't think) one should be overly concerned with others' reactions, hapa studies needn't be monolithic, it's a potential long-term goal not an absolute short-term objective, etc. etc. As you stated earlier we don't have to agree on any of it.

[BeTheReds]

P.S. I'm planning on letting let this thread go. I've stated my position pretty clearly (I think) several times and don't feel like continuing to resend posts about how (I don't think) one should be overly concerned with others' reactions, hapa studies needn't be monolithic, it's a potential long-term goal not an absolute short-term objective, etc. etc. As you stated earlier we don't have to agree on any of it.

Yea we do seem to be going in circles. I just however think that this shouldn't even be a goal. I would much more understand if someone's opinion was that there should be a community for hapas to fit into (not my own opinion of course, but I at least can see the logic of it.) If such a community then existed, it would certainly make sense if a studies program was a goal.

We've both been pretty clear I think. I'm interested to know from you exactly what and how things would be taught in such a program.

[eurasiacan285]

Yea we do seem to be going in circles. I just however think that this shouldn't even be a goal. I would much more understand if someone's opinion was that there should be a community for hapas to fit into (not my own opinion of course, but I at least can see the logic of it.) If such a community then existed, it would certainly make sense if a studies program was a goal.

We've both been pretty clear I think. I'm interested to know from you exactly what and how things would be taught in such a program.

I don't have a detailed ten-point program BTR. I just think it's something that shouldn't be ruled out at this point. There's things like racial theory applied to hapa/multiracial peoples, histories of hapa/mixed-race peoples (in North America and elsewhere), sociological studies and political ramifications of growing populations of such peoples, healthcare implications, individual biographies and literary studies, and so on. One of (my) points is that it doesn't have to be pinned down to a tee right now since you can't fully predict how society and academia will evolve down the road, and because so many more hapas will be of college age in coming years ruling it out now seems unnecessarily self-limiting.

[Jason S]

Be the reds, when you say, "I fail to see that an individual study would be of any use other than to show that hapas aren't enough like each other to be worthy of study," you're missing my point I think. I'm trying to say that these so-called similarities shouldn't necessarily be assumed to be advantageous in any truly useful way--and by useful, I mean for the purpose of truly understanding people better. I don't care whether or not Hapa Studies ever exists, but I don't buy the argument that a set of clear, easy to identify similarities makes for more useful or effective understanding. Does it make it easier to organize an area of study? Perhaps. But the organization of majors and disciplines is nearly always artificial--like separating history, literature, sociology, psychology. This is not done for the purpose of helping students learn more or learn better. One of the benefits of programs like Asian Studies or African-American studies is that they do try to combine the different disciplines. Obviously Hapa Studies would require such a cross-discipline approach. I guess I'm also puzzled by the tone by the language you've chosen--this "worthy of study" business. There are plenty of things to criticize about university programs, but why are you so vehemently oppossed to hapa studies in particular (I know, of course, that this was what the post addressed, but you have such strong opinions about it). In an earlier post you suggested that all hapas (at least ones who attend organized meetings) are whiny and self-absorbed. These charges are always leveled at any group that meet to talk about shared group experiences and frustrations. Why are hapas talking about the frustration of not being accepted by either culture any worse than Asians talking about overbearing parents or an ignorant dominant white culture? I apologize if you've explained this in another post on another topic.

The point I was trying to make about the black woman seeing herself in the Jewish protagonist was that a novel gives a complete picture of a real person. The woman loved the book not because of their shared American culture, but because of the shared deeper feelings/motivations/traits that we can only see when we read a well-developed story (or a bunch of them) or actually talk to people. People are not moved by sociology textbooks. People do not get a deeper understanding of others (those who are very different) because they sit in an anthropolgy course. Almost always this happens because of art (when actual face-to-face exposure is impossible). Reading stories can more effectively lead to achieving the bigger goals of programs like Asian Studies because they give a complete picture of individuals. They go beyond trends and statistics and tendencies. I know that "group analysis" has its purpose, but it's very limited, in my opinion, if we consider the real importance of learning about people. I guess what I'm saying is that I have no interest at all in studying about "a people" in order to more effectively sell them goods and services (a friend of mine started a company who does just this--teaches American business people about Japanese culture). Genuine understanding usually happens with real contact with people. A university tries to provide this by way of classes. I would argue that novels do it better than anything else. They do not allow you to believe that any individual is just one of those folks from that group. So that remark that if we want to "read stories we can take literature classes" seems way too dismissive. Not dismissive of me, but of the importance of literature.

As for myself, I don't really feel comfortable even using the term Hapa to describe myself, as the word as it's applied is so new (and I'm relatively old--39). I only call myself Korean-German because I happen to be on this site and an Asian background is something of a requirement. My father was born in Munich during WW II. His father was a German soldier and died on the Russian frontlines when my father was just two. My grandmother eventually remarried an American solider in the 1950s. My father still speaks German and has been in the U.S. since the early 1960s. He is, like so many Germans of his era, somewhat ashamed of being German. My mother was born in Honolulu, also during WW II. Both of her Korean parents were born in Hawaii. My grandfather (on my mother's side) was in the military during WW II and after, so my mother lived in Japan, France, Los Angeles, and Germany (where she met my father). My sister and I were born in Arizona, but we eventually moved to a small college town in rural Missouri. We were essentially raised as Americans, yes, which was one of your questions, but because of our parents' backgrounds, we weren't accepted as normal Americans. Neither German nor Korean culture was much celebrated or talked about in our family, though if pressed, I'd have to say that my sister and I know more about German culture (we've been there and met family). But as you know, it is how you look that matters to people, so as we grew up we were assumed to be Chinese (it's always Chinese in rural areas. . .). I've always considered myself American and know that I would not be accepted or would not fit in as German or Korean in Germany or Korea. That doesn't matter to me. I don't mind being considered a foreigner in these countries. I'm considered a hapa in this country only because our country is (ironically) obsessed with race and because so often nonwhites are treated like foreigners.

To me, the great advantage of being mixed-race or hapa is that we are not allowed to know exactly who we are and what we're supposed to believe. We cannot be easily defined. We are forced to think about what we are and what we want and who we will be--and although this is difficult at times, ultimately I believe it leads to a better sense of self (at least a more thoughtful sense of self, anyway).

[BeTheReds]

Be the reds, when you say, "I fail to see that an individual study would be of any use other than to show that hapas aren't enough like each other to be worthy of study," you're missing my point I think. I'm trying to say that these so-called similarities shouldn't necessarily be assumed to be advantageous in any truly useful way--and by useful, I mean for the purpose of truly understanding people better. I don't care whether or not Hapa Studies ever exists, but I don't buy the argument that a set of clear, easy to identify similarities makes for more useful or effective understanding. Does it make it easier to organize an area of study? Perhaps. But the organization of majors and disciplines is nearly always artificial--like separating history, literature, sociology, psychology. This is not done for the purpose of helping students learn more or learn better. One of the benefits of programs like Asian Studies or African-American studies is that they do try to combine the different disciplines. Obviously Hapa Studies would require such a cross-discipline approach. I guess I'm also puzzled by the tone by the language you've chosen--this "worthy of study" business. There are plenty of things to criticize about university programs, but why are you so vehemently oppossed to hapa studies in particular (I know, of course, that this was what the post addressed, but you have such strong opinions about it). In an earlier post you suggested that all hapas (at least ones who attend organized meetings) are whiny and self-absorbed. These charges are always leveled at any group that meet to talk about shared group experiences and frustrations. Why are hapas talking about the frustration of not being accepted by either culture any worse than Asians talking about overbearing parents or an ignorant dominant white culture? I apologize if you've explained this in another post on another topic.

How is it different? In short: Asians have a shared history/culture/language(s)/experience as immigrants/minorities in the US. Hapas do not. Certainly segments of the hapa population (such as US military father/Korean mother hapas) might have a wealth of commonality to draw from. I am not denying that. I simply find it rather presumptuous though that many hapas think that their way is how all hapas are, and that all hapas will be able to relate. Other segments of the very diverse population will not be able to. In contrast, when a full blooded Asian-American person complains about racism on account of how he looks (for example) nearly ALL full blooded Asian-Americans can relate.

The point I was trying to make about the black woman seeing herself in the Jewish protagonist was that a novel gives a complete picture of a real person. The woman loved the book not because of their shared American culture, but because of the shared deeper feelings/motivations/traits that we can only see when we read a well-developed story (or a bunch of them) or actually talk to people. People are not moved by sociology textbooks. People do not get a deeper understanding of others (those who are very different) because they sit in an anthropolgy course. Almost always this happens because of art (when actual face-to-face exposure is impossible). Reading stories can more effectively lead to achieving the bigger goals of programs like Asian Studies because they give a complete picture of individuals. They go beyond trends and statistics and tendencies. I know that "group analysis" has its purpose, but it's very limited, in my opinion, if we consider the real importance of learning about people. I guess what I'm saying is that I have no interest at all in studying about "a people" in order to more effectively sell them goods and services (a friend of mine started a company who does just this--teaches American business people about Japanese culture). Genuine understanding usually happens with real contact with people. A university tries to provide this by way of classes. I would argue that novels do it better than anything else. They do not allow you to believe that any individual is just one of those folks from that group. So that remark that if we want to "read stories we can take literature classes" seems way too dismissive. Not dismissive of me, but of the importance of literature.

My point was that it wasn't a very good example that someone relates to a ficticious character. You tried to show that it was an extreme example because the reader and the fictitious character were huge contrasts, OMG a black woman and a Jewish man. If I were to see myself in Luke Skywalker, a non-Asian, non-Christian, non-American, non Earthling, backwater moisture farmer from a desert planet on the outer rim of another galaxy. Wow, if I can do that, then I must be even more culturally accepting than the black woman!

As to what you are saying. You're delving into dangerous territory there. If for example in an Asian-American studies class, AMY TAN were required reading, many Asian-Americans would take exception.

I too agree that the best way to get to know a culture is to interact with people from it, and I can attribute