Affirmative Action

[Shuriken]

The following is an excerpt from Clarence Page's syndicated column:

"I favor affirmative action, but I also want to put it out of business. Although you would never guess it from what some zealots say, affirmative action was never intended to be permanent. As equal-opportunity goals are achieved, various forms of affirmative action should be re-evaluated, then changed or eliminated as necessary.

"With that in mind, I would like to congratulate the success of Ward Connerly, the University of California regent who has become a national anti-affirmative action crusader after pushing Proposition 209 to victory.

"I would like to, but I can't. Unfortunately, he wants to make too much of his success.

"He has proposed a new ballot initiative that would stop the state and other public agencies from collecting any racial data or classifying people into racial categories. It would only make a few exceptions for areas like law enforcement and fair housing.

"He calls it the 'Racial Privacy Initiative,' which is ironic since, if race were a matter you could keep to yourself, we would not have the problem of racial discrimination. Connerly's initiative seems to be aimed at fighting 'race' without fighting racism.

"Connerly offers his own racially mixed ancestry as good examples of how race is more a social construct than biological relevancy. His ancestors include Americans of African, Irish, American Indian and French Canadian descent.

"That's fine for him and his family. I think everyone should be free to call themselves whatever they want to call themselves. Unfortunately, the problem of racial discrimination deals not with what you see in yourself as much as what others see when they see you.

"That's why I find it bemusing that Connerly and others would want to eliminate the very tool that has helped us [people of color] measure the progress we have made. We can measure, for example, the success of diversity outreach at California's universities precisely because the state engages in what detractors like Connerly call 'racial bean counting.'

"'I suppose we will lose that tool,' Connerly conceded in a telephone interview with me. 'But that's one of the trade-offs we have to make.'

"That's a pretty big trade, Brother Ward. Let's face it: As long as beans have meaning in our society, our society will have good reason to count them.

"It is encouraging to see the walls of discrimination and identity politics fading in recent years. But if Americans make too much of our progress, we will jeopardize the progress we have yet to make."

[achtungbaby]

Wow, I didn't know Clarence Page had a syndicated column...

It amazes me, sometimes, how Ward is so hell-bent on tearing down the mechanisms or institutions which helped him (whether he admits it or not) get to where he is today. He's like that Colonel in [i:5ca7869e07]Undercover Brother [/i:5ca7869e07]who's brainwashed by the Man...

[mrazntre]

what I want to know is....

why have Asian been hurt by affirmative action? it seems absurd that Asians have been collectively grouped together with whites (re UCLA admissions), basically as an admissions rating standard (i believe this was before the anti-affirmative action). Does 'overachievement' lead to systematic racism? As a minority within the model of affirmative action, should you not be treated as such in every respect? Regardless of the achievements of your racial predecessors? Is that not racism that Asians have been handicapped due to burgeoning population numbers in the UC system?

i still want to know how a few of my friends got into UCLA with a 2.5gpa and 1000 SAT score. no atheletics, no clubs. btw, they were Hispanic.


one more thing. How come Filipinos are grouped seperately? I do understand the whole Spain thing. I understand that completely, but if Filipinos are considered Filipinos or API's, then shouldn't they be excluded from the term "Asian" ? I guess i'm somewhat bothered by this because a few of my friends use whichever term that's more convenient at that particular moment in time. Can't you stick with one? What do you think?

[thaite]

[quote:6b5af037dd="mrazntre"]what I want to know is....

why have Asian been hurt by affirmative action? it seems absurd that Asians have been collectively grouped together with whites (re UCLA admissions), basically as an admissions rating standard (i believe this was before the anti-affirmative action). Does 'overachievement' lead to systematic racism? As a minority within the model of affirmative action, should you not be treated as such in every respect? Regardless of the achievements of your racial predecessors? Is that not racism that Asians have been handicapped due to burgeoning population numbers in the UC system?[/quote:6b5af037dd]

Or your could say that in that situation, Asians have assimilated and are now on an equal footing, which is the purpose of affirmative action.

Page is right: Affirmative action is [b:6b5af037dd]not[/b:6b5af037dd] meant to be a permanent institution -- it's intended to help minority groups gain an equal place.

[mrazntre]

of course affirmative action isn't meant to be permanent, however, have Asians really gained equal footing? Do you get treated with the same kind of respect as white people all around the US? (that is, if you live in the US of course :P) although there are exceptions, what kind of equal footing do Asians have when we are not represented in the media properly? How is it that Asian males are still portrayed as feminine? There have been slight changes with Romeo Must die, etc... however, Asians are not being portrayed in a heroic light. Rather, Asians are being portrayed as villains. Exposure in the media, yes, but is it the proper type of exposure? I don't understand how a fraction of the population of the US could ever be able to stand equally amongst the majority of whites. If affirmative action is supposed to help minorities, then why not continue to help ALL minorities? This should be cut and dry, as opposed to picking and choosing which minorities are either worse or better off? Throughout history there has been a stigma between colors (i forgot the book. sociology though). As the ever increasing awareness of Africans became prevalent in modern society (i.e. Europe), there was an increasing diversification between white and black. Due to the ethnocentrism of the Europeans at the time, they labeled the Africans as savages, whereas they themselves were civilized according to their own cultural standards. By forcing their own ideas upon the 'savages,' there was a great burden to maintain the status quo of 'whites,' as the dominant color in the world. this prevailing thought was the issue of the day because of the insecurities of the 'civlized' people who felt threatened by the Africans (for whatever reason). In having this split, the whites created this tension between colors, where white was good and black was bad. Everything else in between worked off a proportional scale. Okay, so here comes my real point. Yellow is lighter than black, yet still a minority, right? because of the prevalence of color discrimination, asians were seen as a lighter threat than all of the other darker peoples of the world. Since the dominance of power shifted to the US... here we are today. whites in the US were more concerned with their systems of oppression towards blacks and hispanics, whom were darker than asians. Asians came in under the radar because of the stereotype that Asians were quiet, hard workers, and did not rise up to defy order. this stereotype was the only reason that asians were allowed to become academically competitive, but asians are not treated as equals to whites. that is my main point.

so where exactly does the point of assimilation begin? I see no assimilation.

btw have you seen the academic courses offered at high schools in south central, watts and compton? have you seen their facilities? it's not a pretty site. no wonder kids can't study there. even kids who do want to do well are usurped by the system and become trapped. although a well funded educational center might not produce the best students in the world, it does facilitate the needs of students to a T and beyond, creating an easier environment to learn and be successful in the future.

[Focker]

actually its more prevalent the benefits of AA in the midwest where there are few of us. AA has allowed a lot of my vietnamese and philipino friends attend college and attend it with scholarships because they were Asian. Though i do see down the line when asians become more populous that AA will no longer be enacted in our benefit, there are asians who do currently benefit from it.

testimonial.

[angelnympho]

in the case of UCLA that was mentioned up above.. i think it had more to do with the AMOUNT of asians that want to go there. UCLA, if you didn't already know, is getting pretty close to half asian. its not that asians need more help getting there. all campuses try to diversify their students... a lot of times it doesnt make sense, but what's the alternative? have a school with NO minorities? a lot of the reason why minorities get overlooked is simply because of where they are located. that's not exactly fair...

[mrazntre]

[quote:0e28c2f3c2]in the case of UCLA that was mentioned up above.. i think it had more to do with the AMOUNT of asians that want to go there. UCLA, if you didn't already know, is getting pretty close to half asian. its not that asians need more help getting there. [/quote:0e28c2f3c2]


regardless of whether or not Asians need help to gain admittance to UCLA, isn't AA supposed to help serve, in this case, the Asian commnuity and not hinder it? I believe that school admissions have basically a quota or pie chart of racial admittance. simply, they allow (let's just give an arbitrary number), 50% go to whites, 50% go to minorities. of the 50% minorities, let's say only 20% Asians are allowed admittance. in this case AA is actually constricting the amount of Asians allowed into the particular school. Is that right? Why should AA [i:0e28c2f3c2]STOP[/i:0e28c2f3c2] for Asians, yet continue for other minorities? Are Asians not minorities? Last time I checked, I was a minority. As a label, how am I different from any other minority? there's more white people in this country than all of the minorities combined!
As minorities, we have all been born to a disadvantage. It is true that some do succeed to break through racial barriers, but the fact remains, why must we even HAVE to break through racial barriers to succeed? Can't we just succeed?


....okay, i have absolutely no clue what i'm talking about anymore. I think my ideas have begun to merge, so i'm going to stop here....

[angelnympho]

[quote:f87ebee793="mrazntre"]regardless of whether or not Asians need help to gain admittance to UCLA, isn't AA supposed to help serve, in this case, the Asian commnuity and not hinder it?[/quote:f87ebee793]

it's not hindering it though, at least i dont think it is. last time i checked my acceptance letters, i was pretty pleased....

and even so, im sure minorities get less than 50% ... at least i think they do. either way, im not sure how great of an idea affirmative action was to begin with. isnt it just reverse racial discrimination?

[mrazntre]

so exactly when did you apply for college? just recently? or 6 years ago before AA was taken off the books?

[angelnympho]

*scratches head* class of 2002. i applied a few months ago.

[achtungbaby]

[quote:40cbdab419="angelnympho"]
im not sure how great of an idea affirmative action was to begin with. isnt it just reverse racial discrimination?[/quote:40cbdab419]

Until I get some more resources together on the topic for yellowworld.org, I'd suggest just doing a search to get some more background info. You might be surprised...

[kasia]

the whole model minority concept is a relatively recent phenomenon. back in the 50's and 60's, however, there were very few asians in the universities. affirmative action got us to where we are now.

i will be clerking for a judge in the fall--an asian federal district court judge who is fairly well-known. when he applied for law school back in the 60's, though, he received a call from the law school dean notifying him that they filled their one asian seat for the year and asking him to apply next year. he did, and he graduated close to top of his class. it's no longer the 60's anymore, but i strongly believe that affirmative action would benefit asians who are applying to grad school. it would also help in job situations given the glass ceiling with which many of us will soon be acquainted.

also, there is no university out there that is 50% asian or even close. so don't let false statistics fool you. (see *) in addition, those who buy into the whole model minority myth forget that there are also southeast asians (cambodian, laos, vietnamese, mien, etc.) who don't fit into that category and still need to be given a hand in order to get into a college.

*personally, i think it's counterproductive for one to use statistics to support his/her argument when one hasn't bothered to check the reliability of the source, or perhaps doesn't even have a source aside from his/her own speculation. in addition, it is very misleading to lump all minorities together into one group. so what if all the blacks, hispanics, asians, native americans, and middle easterners together as a group may outnumber the whites? so what if 5+ groups outnumber 1 group? i've never understood that argument.

anyhow--in response to the the article, i'm really glad that the Racial Privacy Act did not pass. not only would we be unable to conduct studies on whether police and other law enforcement are abusing their authority by impermissibly racially profiling, but we also we wouldn't be able to find out which health problems will most likely affect which ethnicities, etc. how sneaky of them to call it the "Racial Privacy Act" when all that would be accomplished by the Act is harm to minority members.

[mrazntre]

angelnympho: no wonder.

i applied back in 1996 when affirmative action was still in effect. if you had applied back then, your results most likely would have been completely different.

AA and its adverse affects to the asian community basically has no bearing as of right now due to the "fairness" (at least more fair than when i applied) based on merit, rather than race. you did not experience what my friends and I experienced. It was disheartening to see the very institution that was created to aid Asian Americans (minorities in general), actually worked against us due to the overwhelming majority of qualified Asian applicants. I have no problem of being rejected due to my shortfalls in terms of merit, however I do have a problem being passed over because the Asian quota of the greater minority quota was already fulfilled.

[achtungbaby]

[quote:93ba8cc4a6="mrazntre"]

AA and its adverse affects to the asian community basically has no bearing as of right now due to the "fairness" (at least more fair than when i applied) based on merit, rather than race. you did not experience what my friends and I experienced.[/quote:93ba8cc4a6]

I'm glad you brought this up. There's a common perception that AA in higher education actually hurts Asians while helping other minorities. Anyone agree with this?

[mrazntre]

i have no knowledge of the affects of AA in higher education. but.... if they're doing it in undergrad studies, why not in grad school? at least their racist admissions criteria is consistent.

[achtungbaby]

Well, when I've heard this discussion on AA raised elsewhere, it seems like the standard response I get from someone pro-AA is that: 1) there's no conclusive evidence that the absence of AA has helped increase Asian enrollment (even though there's overwhelming evidence that other minorities have certainly suffered); and 2) people of color need to stick together and Asians should continue to support AA because we have we need to support each other

[kasia]

[quote:9288a09cb3="mrazntre"]i have no knowledge of the affects of AA in higher education. but.... if they're doing it in undergrad studies, why not in grad school? at least their racist admissions criteria is consistent.[/quote:9288a09cb3]

college is higher education.

[kasia]

[quote:f20e21a34a="achtungbaby"][quote:f20e21a34a="mrazntre"]

AA and its adverse affects to the asian community basically has no bearing as of right now due to the "fairness" (at least more fair than when i applied) based on merit, rather than race. you did not experience what my friends and I experienced.[/quote:f20e21a34a]

I'm glad you brought this up. There's a common perception that AA in higher education actually hurts Asians while helping other minorities. Anyone agree with this?[/quote:f20e21a34a]

well, here's a question. what exactly [i:f20e21a34a]is [/i:f20e21a34a]affirmative action? and how exactly is/was it implemented?

[mrazntre]

to me, college (undergrad) is not higher education. any dumbass can pass 180 units and get a bachelor's degree. But, it's only the true scholars who are able to dedicate themselves to a specific field for X number of years.

affirmative action... if memory serves, AA was the creation of a system, which was supposed to "level the playing field" amongst whites and minorities. This movement was concurrent with the 1960's civil rights movement. AA was supposed to give minorities a handicap in which to boost minorty participation in government and government sponsored institutions. This however resulted in nothing more than quota stamping, which every governmental institution vehemently denies. mm.. i can't remember anything else. *black fist*

[kasia]

[quote:b71a514ab8="mrazntre"]This however resulted in nothing more than quota stamping, which every governmental institution vehemently denies. mm.. i can't remember anything else. *black fist*[/quote:b71a514ab8]

how do you know that?

[deez nuts]

It just seems weird to me that schools implement an "affirmative action standard" to "equalize the playing field"and at the same time implement a quota on the number of ethnic minority sects that can be admitted.

As to the good or bad of it, I guess it all depends on whether or not you are the recipient or the victim of these policies.

[kasia]

[quote:235c48dd96="Chasiubao_Boy"]It just seems weird to me that schools implement an "affirmative action standard" to "equalize the playing field"and at the same time implement a quota on the number of ethnic minority sects that can be admitted.

As to the good or bad of it, I guess it all depends on whether or not you are the recipient or the victim of these policies.[/quote:235c48dd96]

quotas were never a part of affirmative action. at least, that is what i was told.

[deez nuts]

You're probably right Kasia, since my knowledge on affirmative action is minimal. But, I just find it funny how a school can make it easier for a certain minority group to get admitted into the school and at the same time put a cap on how many that can be admitted.

[mrazntre]

re: quotas

My father works for the government, he told me. He has the final decision on hiring in his department. That's how I know.

Quotas were never a part of the original legislation of AA, however it's the simplest way for the man to appease the minority masses. How else would AA be gauged? Quotas are simple. Quotas are neat. Quotas are the least path of resistance.

Think of cops and the end of the month. Technically, they do not have quotas, however if at the end of the month their ticket rate is not on par with others in their unit or precint or whatnot, they are scorned for lack of productivity. It's an unspoken quota and it may differ from division to division, but it still IS a "quota" any way you flip it and fuck it.

[angelnympho]

[quote:9b1229f576="achtungbaby"][quote:9b1229f576="angelnympho"]
im not sure how great of an idea affirmative action was to begin with. isnt it just reverse racial discrimination?[/quote:9b1229f576]

Until I get some more resources together on the topic for yellowworld.org, I'd suggest just doing a search to get some more background info. You might be surprised...[/quote:9b1229f576]
shouldnt universities be blind to race all together? isnt intelligence and potential more important?

whatever, i dont really care enough. oh yeah and my bad on the 50% asian comment. it just looks that way, that's all. anyhow... the way i see it, the whole college acceptence process is always going to be corrupt. the politics involved are just way too fucked up... so what's the point in trying to fix things. it's always going to be unfair to at least one individual.

[mrazntre]

universities should be blind to races altogether.

However there does exist racial discrimination in this country, which still to this day has not been completely dealt with. The same rights and freedoms that caucasians (namely male WASPs) were/are afforded are not the same rights and freedoms that have been afforded to minorities. Take a look at some old hiring bulletins from the 50's and 60's, even the 70's. When employers looked for employee's, they were looking for male WASPs, nobody else. Not even female WASPs.

So if universities are blind to racial lines, does it make university admissions any better? If minorities were afforded the same type of education and social status perhaps that statement could be entertained, however..... exactly how much equality do you believe there exists in the US? Ask yourself this question and write down an answer. Then go to college, take a few social science classes, and then answer the very same question.

[ChinaLama]

Admissions would STILL be racially biased even w/o "affirmative action" based on race.

The reason is because legacies have a HUGE advantage, and my guess is the vast majority of legacies aren't Filipino or black or Latino.

The vast majority of legacies, especially old name legacies, are gonna be white. Now that a lot of Asians are attending elite colleges, a lot of legacies will be Asian too.

But being a LEGACY and given extra advantages isn't "fair" on the "intelligence and potential" part. In fact, it may be less potential since legacies may be more complacent.

So basically we're still gonna have a racially imbalanced college system on unfair grounds even if we DONT have affirmative action.

Also i don't know if AA itself hurts us. I think it's because a lot of APAs live in pretty competitive states, where it's hard to get into school anyway. I mean California and NY export a LOT of students--if anything, there's already an OVER-representation of us in a lot of top or medium level schools so it makes sense that it would be tough competition among us cuz there are already too many of us to begin with.

[mrazntre]

i understand that asians have saturated college admissions, but why are we limited to competing amongst ourselves for, for the sake of argument, 25% of the student population? Is that not itself racist in concept? Should it not be open admissions? Shouldn't everyone compete for 100% of admissions?

[ChinaLama]

i dont think we compete ONLy against other asians, if thats the implication mrazntre is making. cuz since i'm the chinalama i kick the shit out of all other asians anyway. its the damn jews who beat me each and every time w/ their mystical kabalistic numerological powers. :(

[mrazntre]

no sweat. just bring bagels and lox to the test. they'll smell 'em for sure and make a run, no more test for them.

[ChinaLama]

hmm bagelss....yess....yes....excellent weapon against the Formidable Illuminati Jews. They can't fight in Mortal Combat if they're distracted by food.

But what if they bring food that tempts me too? NOOOOOOOO!


Plus no matter how powerful we Chinese people are w/ our ancient knowledge, Jews got God on their side. can't mess w/ anyone who's got God backing them up. *sigh*

[mrazntre]

doesn't the word Jew mean slave or something?

[ChinaLama]

I don't think Jew means slave. I think Jew comes from Judah, second son and the largest of all the tribes of Israel and the Southern kingdom after Solomon died and the united kingdom of Israel crumbled.


But Jews HAVE been slaves a lot of times...and now they're paying back with a VENGEANCE. Like a Divine Vengeance or something.

[mrazntre]

i would say they're gettin paid back by palestinian suicide bombers

[ChinaLama]

thats just some Jews in Israel. The Illuminati Jews are immortal. :roll:

[Faithless]

Originally posted by mrazntre@Jul 6 2002, 12:49 AM
to me, college (undergrad) is not higher education. any dumbass can pass 180 units and get a bachelor's degree. But, it's only the true scholars who are able to dedicate themselves to a specific field for X number of years.
Amen. Can't remember the number of times grades were based on a curve, and what should have been a "D" became a "B".

[rakovlam]

Wow, I didn't know Clarence Page had a syndicated column... It amazes me, sometimes, how Ward is so hell-bent on tearing down the mechanisms or institutions which helped him (whether he admits it or not) get to where he is today. He's like that Colonel in Undercover Brother who's brainwashed by the Man...

No one owes anything to an institution. One could say the male justices who ruled that sex discrimination was unconstitutional also benefited from sex discrimination. One could say the white justice that ruled that segregation was unconstitutional benefited from segregation. To accuse someone of being ungrateful is absurd because 1). to some people I'm ungrateful to the Asian race for my views on saaay... a couple of T-shirts 2). Ward Connerly is fighting for individual rights, so to him race means nothing to him when it comes to applying for college.

[Redhawk]

I hope that we can finally moved beyond race in this country, but letting students slide into college without understand the basics is wrong.

Also, I have seen white students attending college and taking remedial subjects.

We put too much emphasis on sports and not enough on education. I live not too far form Lebron James' hometown, in his school district, 26% of students in the six grade passed the proficiency test in math; compare that to 80% percent in other districts.

The American public is getting short changed, and no one is doing crap about it.

So where is George W. Bush: "no student left behind?"

Bill Clinton was too busy with Monica to do anything about the situation.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

The president has no power to do anything about the school system. It's dominated by civil service unions. (For those who don't know, civil service unions are room-temperature blobs of fat and water which come closer to being completely immovable and immobile than anything else scientists have created in the lab).

Trash the entire public education system and replace it with tax credits and vouchers.

[Chester]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 1 2003, 04:30 PM
The president has no power to do anything about the school system.
That's an oversimplification and generally untrue.

In even an indirect way, the president can have profound impact. For example, if Sandra Day O'Conner were to resign while Bush is in office, then Bush would be able to create a conservative lock on the Court with a single appointment.

If Bush had the chance to install a Justice in the Scalia mold, many aspects of American public education would be vastly different. Take a look at Scalia's dissenting opinion in the recent case on affirmative action -- I find myself praying that Bush never gets a chance to change the complexion of the Court.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Chester@Jul 1 2003, 07:51 PM
That's an oversimplification and generally untrue.

In even an indirect way, the president can have profound impact. For example, if Sandra Day O'Conner were to resign while Bush is in office, then Bush would be able to create a conservative lock on the Court with a single appointment.

If Bush had the chance to install a Justice in the Scalia mold, many aspects of American public education would be vastly different. Take a look at Scalia's dissenting opinion in the recent case on affirmative action -- I find myself praying that Bush never gets a chance to change the complexion of the Court.
And what, pray tell, would those Evil Whitey Conservatives do that would be so detrimental to education? Deprive public schools of the funding that the civil service unions have used to create the highest administrator:teacher ratio in the world? Prohibit them from engaging in reverse racial discrimination? Shut down schools which have shown they haven't the slightest clue how to educate kids and let the parents of those kids decide for themselves where they want their kids and educational tax dollars to go?

[rakovlam]

So where is George W. Bush: "no student left behind?"

The only good thing about the "no child left behind" bill is that parents can move children out of failing schools. Otherwise, it's stuff written by Ted Kennedy which means more money than public schools need.

[madison]

Affirmative action at universities it geared toward under represented minorities. At UCLA, this no longer includes AA.

I'm glad you brought this up. There's a common perception that AA in higher education actually hurts Asians while helping other minorities. Anyone agree with this?

It hurts East Asians in particular in the UC system, but it still helps them in many other areas across the country. Many people here seem to be of the opinion that affirmative action is good so long as you get to benefit, but once you no longer benefit from it, then it is bad. I don't think you can have it both way.

[Redhawk]

Oh well, I guess we can all agree that there's just no easy answer to this dilemma.

I live in an area where's the school district is great.
I will continue to vote for the levy; however, I can't do much for those failing districts that can't make the grade.

First, we must improve all test scores of every student.
Next, set higher grade point averages for college admittance, and then we can do away with A A. If there are cases involving discrimination, students then can sue the college.

I'm just dreaming; this will never happen.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Redhawk@Jul 2 2003, 07:31 PM
First, we must improve all test scores of every student.
This could be difficult. Certainly, some students have a difficult home situation, after school jobs, etc. which are affecting their test performance. But just as certainly, there are some others whose test scores are where they are cuz they've reached the limits of their intellectual capacity.

[Redhawk]

Yes, but we can place those students in vocational training, and give them some kind of trade.