3rd debate: Last Duel at Sunset

[kimpossible]

What's the format for this one?

[achtungbaby]

What's the format for this one?
Similar to the first. Both candidates will field questions from a moderator and the focus will be on domestic policy.

As long as Kerry continues hammering Bush on details without getting lost in minutiae, Kerry should be able to handle the President pretty easily.

[kimpossible]

Hey, Bush is using bigger words tonight and numbers. Even he looks surprised that he's not flubbing it.

Kerry looks rather tired (physically). Like he has a cold.

[Mr.Lum]

He's always like that. Bush is up there talking about his biggotry very well. It's not in our nations interest to have the courts define marriage, but he wants to? What an ass. That right there is enough to make me want to spit on his shoes. Get your government out of my face.

Bush can't give examples as to bad government controlled health care! hahaaha

[kitty]

excellent debate. i think kerry did very well in dumbing things down for the average american and showing he has spirit to go with that brain.

CNN instant polls say the debate results are 52% Kerry, 39% Bush. Kerry definitively won -- and I think he gave some excellent answers, especially to the tough questions on same-sex marriage (though I don't agree with him) and faith.

Still don't think it'll help. As I've said before, America doesn't want a smart president -- they want a dumb jock cowboy.

Nonetheless, one can hope, can't one? I'd like to hope for a president who can control his own salivary output. Wipe that spittle, Dubya!!

[Faithless]

Hey, Bush is using bigger words tonight and numbers. Even he looks surprised that he's not flubbing it.

Kerry looks rather tired (physically). Like he has a cold.
Nah, he was fine.

So was his comment about the Cheney daughter -- despite what all the pundits say.

[kimpossible]

I think this was Bush's best debate performance. He seemed lucid.

[hooligan]

I think this was Bush's best debate performance. He seemed lucid.
they fed him the happy pills tonight.

[kitty]

Nah, he was fine.

So was his comment about the Cheney daughter -- despite what all the pundits say.

agreed... nothing wrong with referencing Cheney's daughter. Better than pretending she doesn't exist and having the entire Cheney family onstage at the RNC, 'cept for her.

[nonamerasian]

Kerry didn't look up to snuff.

Poor man looks beat.

It's nice to see how much Bush has improved from the first debate.

I dozed in and out of sleep during the debate. I didn't find this one very interesting.

Nothing said that needed repeating.

[kitty]

are you kidding? they addressed ALL this domestic stuff that pretty much hadn't been talked about! and i thought kerry was pretty electrifying... bush looked like he was about to fall out... someone slip him some valium?

[achtungbaby]

I think this was Bush's best debate performance. He seemed lucid.
I would have to respectfully disagree. I thought Bush resonated the most with voters during his second debate, pacing about, forcefully defending the "unpopular" decisions he's had to make, reminding everyone about the economic bubble...

Of course, during the second debate, if his responses seemed passionate and articulate, it was simply because both candidates were given the questions beforehand.

I knew he'd get whooped tonight. When under constant attack and pressure, he wilts in the pocket...flubs everything...

What the hell is "paygo"?

CNN's post debate poll: Kerry over Bush, 52 to 39.

Not the landslide that was the first debate, but certainly a very nice cushion. Kerry will probably get a two to three point boost.

[Arex]

Hey, Bush is using bigger words tonight and numbers. Even he looks surprised that he's not flubbing it.I'm watching the debate on tivo now. Bush used the word "litany" twice which is considered advanced for his vocabulary. Undisputable proof that he's got someone whispering in his ear? Hmmm...

Bush's delivery of certain lines sounds almost robotic. Particularly when talking numbers. Probably him trying to get 'em straight in that drug and alcohol scrambled brain of his. And, as Kim suggested, there've been a few times he completed his lines and then gave look of delight as if he was pleasantly surprised he made it through without a massive brain fart.

I'm listening to the discussion on education right now. Bush keeps trying to go on the offensive, but Kerry's doing a great job discrediting almost every attack and throwing shit back in Bush's face that Bush has no answer for.

RX

[achtungbaby]

Bush's delivery of certain lines sounds almost robotic. Particularly when talking numbers.
That's one of the things I found particularly surprising -- anyone, given the right amount of time and coaching, can appear credible for a debate. You go over your position...then practice arguing against your opponent's rebuttals and so forth. You do it so much it becomes routine...and that's when you start practicing on the showmanship and what not...

So not only is Bush ignorant of the issues, he's lazy too.

[truMp]

Bush was quite the jolly fellow today wasn't he; cracking those jokes and all. That big grin on his face was quite intimidating though and somewhat freaky because it was persistant also. I enjoyed the debate but felt that Kerry didn't really deliver it home to the crowd; that's too bad.

[kitty]

i dunno. i felt energized by kerry. considering my recent streak of pessimism, that's really saying something.

[myself808]

bush was way to rehearsed. he was asked direct questions on roe v wade and minimum wage and he evaded. He repeated himself and gave one liners and failed snarky remarks prefacing just about every time he spoke. and that little white spittle on the corner of his crooked smirkey mouth drove me insane.

[Faithless]

bush was way to rehearsed. he was asked direct questions on roe v wade and minimum wage and he evaded. He repeated himself and gave one liners and failed snarky remarks prefacing just about every time he spoke. and that little white spittle on the corner of his crooked smirkey mouth drove me insane.
.
Roe v Wade snippet:

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to?

BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test.
Don't you wish Schieffer would have said to Bush, "That didn't entirely answer my question. Yes or no, transmitter boy?"
.
SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond?

...

KERRY: Thank you very much.

Well, again, the president didn't answer the question.

I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the Court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right.

So I don't intend to see it undone.

Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it.
...

SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir?

BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with.
To wit Schieffer should have said to Bush, "You're so full of shit."

[SunWuKong]

i read the transcript of the debate on CNN.com.

was it just me or did Bush keep dodging the questions and answering with something irrelevant?

[kitty]

they both did that to some extent, but Bush I think did it far more than Kerry. That combined with his lethargy on stage made it look like he was shot up with morphine.

the spittle on his mouth didn't help to counter that image...

[Yeahman]

It's not in our nations interest to have the courts define marriage, but he wants to?
He wants to fight the courts that are redefining marriage.

I have one piece of advice to give to Mr. Kerry; for heaven's sake SMILE!!!

Anyway, I enjoyed the debate. Kerry did better IMO. Bush so flagrantly ignored the questions. But I think maybe Kerry got easier questions. Kinda nice to see him finally coming out of the religion closest. I bet he just pissed off a lot of people who hated Bush's religiosity. Kerry was quoting from the Bible! And not just the verses that can be universally applied to all people. Quotes from Kerry:
"My faith affects everything that I do, in truth."
"And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith"
"Everything is a gift from the Almighty."
"Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul"

[Mr.Lum]

He wants to fight the courts that are redefining marriage.

He wants an amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman. He's full up shit. I'd like his hick ass not to tell MA and New England how to do our business if he thinks so lowly of us.

[Yeahman]

Oh and I thought that bringing up Cheney's daughter was just dirty. Why do you have to bring up unwilling family members in the debate? Bush shouldn't countered with a "yo mama."

[Faithless]

Oh and I thought that bringing up Cheney's daughter was just dirty. Why do you have to bring up unwilling family members in the debate? Bush shouldn't countered with a "yo mama."
Unwilling family member? I don't get it.

Mary Cheney is not some private citizen who'd rather not have her sexual orientation be known, she's an active Republican (her fault). She is the director of vice presidential operations for the Bush-Cheney campaign. She is also a visible member of the Republican Unity Coalition which actively supports gay marriage and disapproves of Bush's gay marriage stance.
.
A Cheney flip-flop:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4271472/
...
Though Dick Cheney at one time seemed sympathetic to gay unions—in a 2000 debate with Joe Lieberman he said the issue should be left to the states—last month he said he would support "whatever decision" Bush makes. "I think the American people deserve to know he is willing to sell out his daughter for votes. It says something about his character," says John Aravosis, a Washington, D.C., political consultant who founded the site along with Los Angeles activist Robin Tyler.
...

[Yeahman]

So the private lives of family members is fair game?

And Cheney has to walk a fine line. He disagrees with the pres but he can't come right out and say that. It was an absolutely necessary "flip-flop." It's not like he changed his mind. He changed his official public position following the president's lead.

[moser]

^ But John Edwards mentioned Mary Cheney in the vice presidential debate when asked about gay marriages and Cheney thanked him "for saying such kind words about my family."

[Mr.Lum]

Oh and I thought that bringing up Cheney's daughter was just dirty. Why do you have to bring up unwilling family members in the debate? Bush shouldn't countered with a "yo mama."

It shows how heartless these Republicans are. They will restrict the rights of even their closest family. Such pigs.

[kitty]

So the private lives of family members is fair game?

And Cheney has to walk a fine line. He disagrees with the pres but he can't come right out and say that. It was an absolutely necessary "flip-flop." It's not like he changed his mind. He changed his official public position following the president's lead.

lynne cheney said kerry has a bad suntan.

everything is fair game.

It shows how heartless these Republicans are. They will restrict the rights of even their closest family. Such pigs.

yeah... don't talk about mary cheney! we love her and think it's disrespectful!

(meanwhile, at the RNC, the ENTIRE cheney family gets on stage to wave to the audience... 'cept mary).

is it really loving and accepting your daughter if you want to hide her from the world and get pissed when someone acknowledges her existence?

it mighta been poor form if cheney hadn't outed her to the american media in this campaign first.

[Yeahman]

lynne cheney said kerry has a bad suntan.

everything is fair game.
That was such a poor example and I can't even believe you used it.
If she said something about Kerry's daughters' tans then you'd have a point.

yeah... don't talk about mary cheney! we love her and think it's disrespectful!

(meanwhile, at the RNC, the ENTIRE cheney family gets on stage to wave to the audience... 'cept mary).

is it really loving and accepting your daughter if you want to hide her from the world and get pissed when someone acknowledges her existence?

it mighta been poor form if cheney hadn't outed her to the american media in this campaign first.
You liberals are heartless!
Since we're engaged in a debate right now, let's bring kitty's family into it!

But I can't put it on all liberals. I saw a poll in the papers last week that said that most Democrats thought that bringing up Cheney's daughter during the debates was inappropriate. It's just the far-left (Kerry, many people on this forum) that are just out of touch with the mainstream.

[kitty]

That was such a poor example and I can't even believe you used it.
If she said something about Kerry's daughters' tans then you'd have a point.



i was being facetious, yell0, but are you honestly going to say that making fun of kerry's skin tone is above using mary cheney as an example of republican hypocrisy when it comes to gay marriage?

That was such a poor example and I can't even believe you used it.
If she said something about Kerry's daughters' tans then you'd have a point.

You liberals are heartless!
Since we're engaged in a debate right now, let's bring kitty's family into it!


funny. you didn't address how cheney was the one who did it to his daughter first. as i said, if cheney hadn't outed his daughter before kerry had mentioned her, it would be inappropriate, but how is using an example already in the public discourse not okay?

oh wait, because you hold dems to a different standard. i forgot... despite your proclaimed party affiliation, you think republicans can do no wrong!!


But I can't put it on all liberals. I saw a poll in the papers last week that said that most Democrats thought that bringing up Cheney's daughter during the debates was inappropriate. It's just the far-left (Kerry, many people on this forum) that are just out of touch with the mainstream.

actually, kerry is very moderate. far from far left. now if you wanna lob that at me, fine, but if you think kerry is far left, then that's just sad.

[Yeahman]

funny. you didn't address how cheney was the one who did it to his daughter first. as i said, if cheney hadn't outed his daughter before kerry had mentioned her, it would be inappropriate, but how is using an example already in the public discourse not okay?
WTF are you talking about? The reference to Cheney's daughter came out of nowhere during the debate.
If you mention a family member of your's, I am allowed to use them for political purposes?

oh wait, because you hold dems to a different standard. i forgot... despite your proclaimed party affiliation, you think republicans can do no wrong!!
Besides the war in Iraq, the tax cuts, most matters of foreign policy, and healthcare, nope.
But I understand that to a radical liberal, I would come across as very conservative.

actually, kerry is very moderate. far from far left. now if you wanna lob that at me, fine, but if you think kerry is far left, then that's just sad.
You're right. He's to the left of any president we've ever had but not as liberal as many other Democrats in Washington.
BTW I wasn't being sarcastic or anything. I agree Kerry isn't FAR left.

[kitty]

cheney was the first person to bring his daughter into the campaign. i said that if he hadn't told the world about her, then it wouldn't've been fair. but he did. he USED her as a political tool first, to try and indicate his humanity and support for gay people, if not gay marriage.

If you mention a family member of your's, I am allowed to use them for political purposes?

Are you campaigning against me?

Besides the war in Iraq, the tax cuts, most matters of foreign policy, and healthcare, nope.
But I understand that to a radical liberal, I would come across as very conservative.


aside from your stated party affiliation, you have yet to mention anything you DO stand with the dems on. I find that suspect.

You're right. He's to the left of any president we've ever had but not as liberal as many other Democrats in Washington.


actually, he's not even that far left from most presidents. he's fairly moderate.

[Yeahman]

cheney was the first person to bring his daughter into the campaign. i said that if he hadn't told the world about her, then it wouldn't've been fair. but he did. he USED her as a political tool first, to try and indicate his humanity and support for gay people, if not gay marriage.
Maybe it's just the way we were brought up. I had always thought that you don't bring other people's family members into a fight out of respect. Judging from the local poll I saw in the papers, most New Yorkers agree, including Dems. So maybe it's just a NY thing.

aside from your stated party affiliation, you have yet to mention anything you DO stand with the dems on. I find that suspect.
I just said, the war in Iraq, the tax cuts, most matters of foreign policy, and healthcare.
I wouldn't say I stand with the Dems on those issues though. The Dems voted for the war, attack the wrong points of the tax cuts, are even worse in some foreign policy issues (Israel), and won't do much for medical malpractice reform and are on the wrong side of the issue in the case of prescription drug reimportation.

Besides abortion and gay marriage have you ever heard me support any other Republican policy issue?

I have voted Republican once in my life in a vote against Hillary the carpet-bagger. I voted 3rd party once in a vote for Andrew Cuomo against the Rep governor. And even Cuomo was a Democrat who dropped out and didn't seek the Democratic nomination. All my other votes have been Democrat down the line including Gore in 2000.

Overall I agree with the Dems on more issues than I agree with the Reps on. But I am not a rabid liberal spewing out talking points. I evaluate each issue on its own merits. Many here like to attack the Republican spin machine while at the same times totally buying into the Democratic spin. You can hold a reasonable position without the spin. I don't have to agree with everything or anything a party does. I am not bound by parties.

[kitty]

Maybe it's just the way we were brought up. I had always thought that you don't bring other people's family members into a fight out of respect. Judging from the local poll I saw in the papers, most New Yorkers agree, including Dems. So maybe it's just a NY thing.


are you implying that I wasn't brought up proper? thinly veiled, much.

why is this so difficult for you to understand? cheney put his daughter into the public media, shoving her into the limelight to talk about her sexuality, (but still won't let her onstage in the RNC) and then promptly gets pissed off when the Dems refer to the information that HE gave to the world. If you're going to get mad about bringing in family members, start at HOME, yell0.

As I said, had Kerry brought up Mary Cheney without Cheney having done it first, than I wouldn't have a problem with the criticism. however, I find it hypocritical for the cheney family to get upset, given the way they brought her sexuality into the campaign in the first place.

If the republicans want to get mad, maybe they should stop with the joking on Kerry's skin tone (that is SO racialized, it's sickening -- making fun of the colour of your opponent's skin is somehow respectable?) or Theresa Heinz's money. Then maybe they might be able to assume the moral high ground.

Maybe.


Overall I agree with the Dems on more issues than I agree with the Reps on. But I am not a rabid liberal spewing out talking points. I evaluate each issue on its own merits. Many here like to attack the Republican spin machine while at the same times totally buying into the Democratic spin. You can hold a reasonable position without the spin. I don't have to agree with everything or anything a party does. I am not bound by parties.

Maybe it's just the way I was brought up, but I find it disingenuous to put your name behind an organization, assume the perks of being a member, and then run around criticizing the organization at every opportunity. If you disagree with the organization, than DON'T be a part of it. Don't whore your name and reputation out, pretending to be something you disagree with.

I have no problem with independents. I have no problem with people who criticize partisanship or spin. Surprise, surprise, I evaluate every issue, as well -- but I consider myself a Democrat because my personal conclusions tend to coincide with the dems, more often than not. Believe it or not, with the mentioning of Mary Cheney, I don't even know what Kerry and his camp are saying in defense... this is all me. I love how you think that partisanship = sheep incapable of intellectual thought.

Here's the deal: I just have a problem with people who call themselves democrats but show up at the RNC to diss everyone in their organization (or vice versa). If you feel that strongly, then give up your partisan membership. (Incidentally, I felt the same when Michael Moore used his NRA membership to get a meeting with Charlton Heston).

Why do I feel so strongly? Because anytime someone like Zell Miller gets onstage at the RNC, you're constantly reminded that he's a democrat, but we should listen to him because he goes against the Democrats. Well, how can you possibly still consider yourself a democrat if you don't agree with a damn thing the group says and you are encouraging the group that you supposedly disagree so strongly with? Join a different party or be independent. Don't let your name be associated with something you disagree with. Don't keep pretending to be something you're obviously not for the sake of being able to feel justified in criticizing it.

(Incidentally, there's a lot of tactics I'll disagree with the Dems on. Internally. But you'll never see me attacking the dems more than the republicans, if I've got a Dem ID card in my pocket. I have more respect for myself and what I put my name behind to find the people I agree with most and actually call myself that.)

Incidentally, if you don't feel bound by parties, why do you call yourself a registered Democrat at every turn?

[deez nuts]

i think anytime anybody makes their personal and private business public knowledge, it becomes fair game and open to public scrutiny. i don't care if it's the vice president of the united states or some random joe schmo at the office.

[Arex]

Maybe it's just the way we were brought up. I had always thought that you don't bring other people's family members into a fight out of respect. Judging from the local poll I saw in the papers, most New Yorkers agree, including Dems. So maybe it's just a NY thing.I would have to say that, given the context in which Cheney's daughter was brought up in both the campaigning by Cheney and later by Kerry/Edwards in the debates, I would disagree with those Dems in NY. It's not as if either Edwards or Kerry were attacking his daughter. As much as I think the comments were fully justified, I can see how some might react more negatively to the comments when Kerry raised the issue since, in the VP debate, Cheney was there to at least respond.

I personally think the fact that an administration is willing to deny its own children equal protection under the law based on something as arbitrary and innocuous as sexual orientation is highly relevant. Now it seems you're opposed to gay marriage, and you probably attach some sort of negative stigma to being gay or lesbian, so that might explain why you think the Democratic candidates' comments were so out of line and/or irrelevant, but how would you feel if the issue hit closer to home? What if some political candidate chose to campaign on the promise that, if elected, he would seek a Constitutional amendment banning Christians from marrying? (Ignoring for the moment that that right is Constitutionally protected) Despite this, it was a well known fact that this candidate's own son was Christian. Do you really think anyone--either you or any other NYer--would question an opponent's raising that issue in a debate? I really doubt it.

RX

[kitty]

I agree, especially that if Kerry had brought up Mary Cheney in an attacking way, I would be less sympathetic. But he didn't.

Besides, it's all a diversionary tactic. Why is no one lambasting Bush's blatant, bald-faced lie when he denied that he had ever said that he was no longer concerned about Osama Bin Laden?

[achtungbaby]

This thread has been split. Discussion regarding abortion/religion/catholicism can be found here: http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=19520

However, I'll be closing that thread by the end of today. It's run its course.

[Shuriken]

It looks like Kerry has lost his "debate" momentum. *grumble*

I'm surprised by the hubub over Mary Cheney. I think that it was presumptuous of Kerry to put words in her mouth, but I don't think that his bringing her up was especially egregious. One letter in the local press says that Kerry "outed" her, when, in fact, she's been openly gay for several years.